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UD Live event part 3, US Election moves to resolution . . . [?]

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As the Election progresses into its third month, this week we expect a runoff election in Georgia State and the Congress is to sit to resolve the Electoral College result on the 6th.

We continue to track from here and here.

As developments unfold we will add further updates. END

U/D1, Jan 6: Photograph demonstrating even more brazen scrutineer frustration in GA than at Nov 3+, 2020:

I note, extra, by way of the earlier capture from the surveillance video on the night of 3/4 November:

U/D2, Jan 7: Tucker Carlson’s warning on where undermining election integrity leads:

U/D4, a reminder on McFaul Colour-Culture revolution and the SOCOM insurgency escalator:

. . . also, on 4th gen war:

I add, Jan 8th,as a reminder on the Geostrategic picture . . . note, Iran has started 20% U-enrichment.

U/D5, Jan 7: Mr Gaetz gives the epitaph on the 2020 election:

331 Replies to “UD Live event part 3, US Election moves to resolution . . . [?]

  1. 1
    kairosfocus says:

    UD Live event part 3, US Election moves to resolution . . . [?]

  2. 2
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: Let’s pick up the last several active comments:

    >>
    2051
    kairosfocus
    January 4, 2021 at 5:44 am (Edit)

    F/N: Let us not forget the SMICE factor:

    S – SEX – honey traps (known to literally drive men to suicide on being publicly shamed or threatened)

    M – MONEY – the love of money is one root of all evils.

    I – IDEOLOGY – reprogramming people with suitable crooked yardsticks so warps thinking and perception that the hitherto unthinkable seems reasonable and right.

    C – COMPROMISE – blackmail works, works so well it involves a ratchet demanding more and more

    E – EXTORTION – what people do under SMICE pressure that they would not otherwise do.

    As we go forward, bear these in mind.

    KF
    2052
    jerry
    January 4, 2021 at 8:24 am (Edit)

    Scott Adams observed this morning

    The new Trump phone call hoax about “pressuring” the AG of Georgia depends entirely on knowing the public won’t listen to the entire call. That’s how we got the Covington Kids Hoax, the Fine People Hoax and the Drinking Bleach Hoax. It’s worse than Watergate!

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ScottAdamsSays/status/1346084180422057984

    I believe it’s not the AG but the Secretary of State.

    Fake news is now standard. The left lives on hoaxes. They have to because their ideology doesn’t work.

    But also be careful what some non-left sites say too. Lots of misinformation out there. Lots of crazies on both sides but left has many more.

    Time for a new thread!
    2053
    Bob O’H
    January 4, 2021 at 9:21 am (Edit)

    Time for a new thread!

    Seconded.
    2054
    bornagain77
    January 4, 2021 at 9:33 am (Edit)

    Exclusive: Over 432,000 Votes Removed From Trump in Pennsylvania, Data Scientists Say – January 4, 2021
    Excerpt: Pennsylvania election data shows that over 432,000 votes were removed from President Donald Trump during the November election, data scientists say.
    According to an analysis by the Data Integrity Group, obtained exclusively by The Epoch Times, votes for Trump—from both Election Day and mail-in ballots—were removed from the totals in at least 15 counties.
    Time-series election data shows Trump’s votes decrementing in various counties at numerous time points instead of increasing as would be expected under normal circumstances.
    The group said that Election Day vote removals happened during the vote tabulation process in at least 15 counties, including Lehigh County, Chester County, Allegheny County, Armstrong County, Westmoreland County, Northhampton County, Delaware County, Montgomery County, Lackawanna County, Dauphin County, Pike County, Carbon County, Washington County, Erie County, and Luzerne County.
    Meanwhile, absentee vote removals happened in Allegheny County, Chester County, and Lehigh County.
    At least 432,116 votes—213,707 election day votes and 218,409 absentee votes—were removed in total.
    https://www.theepochtimes.com/exclusive-over-432000-votes-removed-from-trump-in-pennsylvania-data-scientists-say_3642202.html?utm_source=newsnoe&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=breaking-2021-01-04-1

    Of note,,

    117th Congress ends prayer with ‘Amen and A-Woman’
    https://parler.com/post/e11bb3dc7396446b8e1e3e9c15e967c6

    Undeniable proof that progressive ideology makes you retarded!>>

  3. 3
    bornagain77 says:

    Exclusive: over 423,000 votes removed from Trump in Pennsylvania, data scientists say | NTD
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM8pC1pAizc&feature=emb_logo

  4. 4
    Fasteddious says:

    Pardon my Canadian bias, but the USA presidential election process is so Byzantine:
    – the run up seems to bring out the worst in everyone and produce the worst candidates
    – each state apparently gets to set up its own voting systems and processes
    – it takes over a year to elect a president, who then serves for four years
    – people may register to vote but do not need to be registered to vote
    – few Americans understand the electoral college process
    – each state’s electoral votes go 100% to one candidate, even if he won by one vote
    – there are multiple arcane steps from election day to installation
    – it takes eleven weeks to transfer power and then the cycle starts over
    Sorry if this seems unfair or mean-spirited, and I suppose the Canadian approach has its own, but different problems:
    – a Prime Minister who can be elected with 34% of the popular vote
    – a Prime Minister who acts like an absolute monarch, surrounded mostly by toadies
    – back-bench MP’s with no power, who only cater meaninglessly to their constituents
    – a Senate with little real power as a place to retire government toadies
    OK, so now you know why I don’t like politics.
    Happy cynical New Year!

  5. 5
    bornagain77 says:

    To clip from the previous thread,

    On Dec. 17 this video came out,,,

    2020 Election shows Joe Biden over-performs in 72% of counties using Dominion Voting Systems – December 17, 2020
    https://rumble.com/vbz2ld-2020-election-shows-joe-biden-over-performs-in-72-of-counties-using-dominio.html

    ,,, which showed that there was indeed a unexplained voting bias in counties that used Dominion Voting Systems,,, from the video description we find this,,,

    “This analysis revealed that counties that used Dominion and Hart InterCivic ballot counting devices and software consistently gave a 5% vote advantage to candidate Joe Biden over President Trump. This advantage was observed regardless of the county’s majority political party affiliation nor urban, suburban, or rural area demographics.”

    Dr. Cornelius Hunter picked up on this video and wrote a blog post saying that the p-value for fraud, based on the data, was a virtual certainty,, “reported as 0”,,, . but Dr. Hunter ended up taking that blog post down.,,, For a couple of weeks I had wondered exactly what had happened so as to make Dr. Hunter take that blog post down, then, apparently after doing his homework, Dr. Hunter wrote a series of blog posts in which he revealed a more precise calculation for p-values,, using a better data source,,,,,,

    I will clip,,,

    Dominion D-Suite 5.5-A, B Correlates with Voting Trends
    An Obvious Trend
    Excerpt: even a cursory examination of the voting data reveals a significant, large-scale, voting trend correlating with the voting machines used. As the chart below shows, the Republican presidential candidate performance measure is sharply lower for the Dominion D-Suite 5.5-A, B voting machine systems, compared to the other types of systems in use.
    https://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2020/12/dominion-d-suite-55-b-correlates-with.html

    The Dominion D-Suite 5.5-A, B Voting Trend
    Sometimes Correlation Does Result from Causation
    Excerpt: From the above chart, we reject the null hypothesis that the category 5 voting machine systems (Dominion D-Suite 5.5-A, B) voting trends are due to chance (p-value: 3.3E-12). In other words, the sharp decrease in our voting trend metric for the category 5 voting machine systems is due to non-random factors.
    https://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2020/12/the-dominion-d-suite-55-b-voting-trend.html

    The MicroVote Voting Trend
    A Plausible Trend
    Excerpt: Here we repeat the analysis, using the same metric except from the Democratic perspective. Now the chart looks like this:,,
    ,, In this case, as shown, the most extreme outlier is the MicroVote_EMS_4.0B Modification voting machine systems. The difference is that in this case there is a plausible explanation.
    First, the sample size for this outlier is smaller, by less than a third, compared to the Dominion outlier we looked at last time. Secondly, this outlier is not nearly as extreme.
    But most importantly, the obvious explanation for this weak Democratic candidate performance, for the MicroVote_EMS_4.0B Modification voting machine systems, is geographic location. These systems are mostly in Tennessee, with an additional few counties in Indiana. This geographic region is solidly Republican. For example, in 2016 these counties voted on average about 75% for the Republican candidate, and less than 25% for the Democratic candidate.
    Given the energy that President Trump has generated going into the 2020 election, it certainly is a plausible explanation that the drop in the Democratic performance metric, shown in the above chart, is due to the geographic region covered by the MicroVote machines.
    As we saw last time, no such explanation was available for the Dominion D-Suite 5.5-A, B voting machine systems.
    https://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2020/12/the-microvote-voting-trend.html

    Extreme County Trends
    What is Going on in Georgia?
    Excerpt: The expected value on the chance hypothesis is 0.628 (on average) Georgia counties to be represented, with a standard deviation of 0.630. We obviously can reject the null hypothesis that this occurred by chance (the p-value is so small it is reported simply as 0).
    Also, all of these eight Georgia counties use the Dominion D-Suite 5.5-A voting machine systems.
    [Ed: Edited pending discovery of possible explanation]
    https://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2020/12/extreme-county-trends-part-i.html

    Clear Ballot_ClearVote_2 Voting Machine Systems in Pennsylvania
    An Interesting Intrastate Trend
    Excerpt: We have looked at irregular voting trends (here, here, here, and here) including a trend across several states that correlated with a voting machine type (here). We now look at a trend within the state of Pennsylvania that correlates with the Clear Ballot_ClearVote_2 Voting Machine System.,,,
    Across the Clear Ballot counties our metric has a mean value of -.865, significantly lower than the observed mean value of 0.168 across the remaining 59 Pennsylvania counties. We can easily reject the null hypothesis that this deviation in the Clear Ballot counties was due to chance (p-value 5.3E-10).
    https://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2020/12/clear-ballotclearvote2-voting-machine.html

    The Dominion D-Suite 5.5-A, B Voting Trend, Revised
    Sometimes Correlation Does Result from Causation
    Excerpt: ,,, we have updated our voting machine system database,,,,
    But once again, the voting machine system category 6 (Dominion D-Suite 5.5-A, B) is an outlier. It shows that same, significant, reduction in the 2020 Republican vote relative to the 2016 Republican vote, which is unexplained by any of the above factors.
    To a lesser extent voting machine system category 15 is also an outlier, but here we have the plausible explanation that it is dominated by left-leaning Virginia counties.
    Also shown on the chart in a red line which is a linear fit to the data, excluding the Dominion category 6 data point. Using this linear fit as our null hypothesis, we conclude the Dominion outlier cannot be plausibly ascribed to chance (p-value: 5.7E-4).
    This is an obvious, statistically significant, problem.
    https://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2021/01/the-dominion-d-suite-55-b-voting-trend.html

    Dr. Hunter also recently, i.e. yesterday morning, took issue with a early December article, via the Washington Post, that tried to claim that there was ‘nothing to see here’ in regards to Dominion voting machines,,

    The Washington Post’s Philip Bump Presents a Statistical Analysis Disproving Election Fraud
    There are Lies, Damn Lies, and Then …
    Excerpt: We analyzed Bump’s article and reconstructed his analysis, using our own data sources,,,,
    These numbers are way off. Our vote tallies are almost 10 times what Bump reports for the Dominion counties, and 10 times what he reports for the non-Dominion counties, to his level of precision.
    So it is a rocky start for Bump and the Washington Post on this important story. Unfortunately, it gets worse as we will see in the coming posts.
    https://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2021/01/the-washington-posts-philip-bump.html

  6. 6
    bornagain77 says:

    Dr. Hunter continues his critique today in a series of posts. I will clip,,,,

    Philip Bump’s First Claim About the 2020 Election Statistical Evidence
    Biden Accredited with Wins in Non-Dominion Counties
    Excerpt: Last time we looked at Philip Bump’s Washington Post article on the legitimacy of the 2020 Presidential election. Bump argued strenuously that there were no significant problems with the election, and that any such thinking is conspiracy theory nonsense. Bump presented a statistical analysis of the voting numbers which, as we saw last time, got off to a rocky start. This time we look at his first major claim about the voting numbers.,,,,
    To summarize, Bump (himself) has discovered a massive discrepancy between Dominion and non-Dominion counties in the 10 key battleground states. The 2% difference is statistically significant and obviously is grounds for further investigation. But Bump is strangely uninterested and brushes it aside with a flawed argument. Unfortunately, it gets worse, as we will see next time.
    https://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2021/01/philip-bumps-first-claim-about-2020.html

    Philip Bump Strangely Omits Election Evidence
    A Five Point Biden Bump
    Excerpt: This time we’ll see why this 2% difference actually understates the problem—an important observation that Bump strangely omits.,,,
    Bump has made 2016 versus 2020 comparisons. Why not here? Why not make this obvious, first-step, comparison, rather than brushing the finding aside?
    In fact, here things become even more interesting. Because while those Dominion counties provided a two-point Biden bump in 2020, it was the exact opposite in 2016. Here are the numbers for the Democrat versus Republican voting percentages in the 10 key battleground states, subdivided into the 2020 Dominion and non-Dominion counties:,,,
    This table shows that the battleground 2020 Dominion counties provided an incredible 5.3% swing (2.51% + 2.78%) for the Democrat candidate when compared to those same counties in 2016. In other words, not only did Biden get a two-point Dominion bump compared to the non-Dominion counties, he got a five-point Dominion bump when compared to those same counties in 2016.
    The story just got a lot more interesting. Underneath these incredible trends is a fingerprint of fraud which we will see next time.
    https://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2021/01/philip-bump-strangely-omits-election.html

    Here is a Strange Trend from the 2020 Election
    What is Going on in Georgia?
    Excerpt: In our initial look at these data, our first move is to subdivide those Dominion counties by the specific type of voting system used. Bump, strangely enough, does not subdivide the data, but rather treats Dominion as a monolith, making no distinction between their different systems. This would be like lumping all Ford vehicles—subcompacts, luxury, sports cars, minivans, pickup truck, etc.—in the same category. Dominion, not surprisingly, has various models and versions, of both its hardware and software, including machines acquired from other companies.,,,
    What about the other category consisting of Dominion_D-Suite_5.5-* systems (our category 6)? Here the story is different. The dominant state in this category is Georgia which is not as left leaning as Colorado.
    Beyond this, the category 6 voting reveal a bewildering pattern. Namely, Trump loses significantly in otherwise right-leaning counties. This is a strong, solid pattern that is very unusual.
    Next time we will focus in on this pattern at the state level.
    https://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2021/01/here-is-strange-trend-from-2020-election.html

    State Level Patterns in the 2020 Election
    Fingerprint of Fraud
    Excerpt: We have been looking at Philip Bump’s Washington Post article on the legitimacy of the 2020 Presidential election and it has led us to Georgia and specifically how its vote trended against Trump in traditionally Republican counties. In other words, Trump lost significantly in otherwise right-leaning counties. This is a strong, solid pattern that is very unusual. You can see it in the chart below.,,,
    The negative values for the blue bars indicate that Trump’s percentage of the vote in Georgia counties reduced in 2020, relative to 2016. These losses are not only quite significant, but they persist as you go into increasingly deeper Republican territory. For example, as the chart shows, Trump lost more than two percentage points in Georgia counties that voted 70-80% for Trump in 2016.
    This Georgia vote “fingerprint” is a strange pattern.
    For comparison, the next chart also shows the Michigan data. As you can see, it looks nothing like the Georgia pattern.,,,
    In Michigan—a farther left state than Georgia—the pattern shows Trump slightly losing votes relative to 2016 in the center-left counties and gaining even more votes than in 2016 in the Republican counties. This is a typical pattern, and it stands in contrast to the Georgia pattern.
    For further comparison, the next chart adds Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.,,,
    Again, as this chart shows, the general pattern is that Trump may lose a bit of vote in the center-left counties, but not surprisingly doing well in the Republican counties.
    Except in Georgia.
    The Georgia pattern, or “fingerprint,” is strange and difficult to explain. If this were Biden’s home state, or otherwise a Democrat stronghold, or a state that had a major, unique, economic problem, then perhaps an explanation would be possible.
    But none of those conditions exist in Georgia.
    https://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2021/01/state-level-patterns-in-2020-election.html

  7. 7
    bornagain77 says:

    The 2020 Insurrection By Peggy Ryan
    Excerpt: Yet on November 3, it was déjà vu, with the election shaping up to be another humiliating defeat for Democrats. Joe Biden was losing and losing big. Panic set in, and someone sounded the retreat. Five states withdrew from the action and stopped counting votes.
    This move is solid evidence of a conspiracy to overthrow the United States government. It’s impossible for five states to independently, separately decide to take the same unprecedented action at the same time. Yet that’s what they would have us believe as Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, and Nevada simultaneously stopped counting votes.
    So who sounded the retreat? Who gave the order?
    The plot thickened when these states didn’t really stop counting and instead picked up the pace. They brought in additional ballots through the backdoor, pulled out hidden suitcases filled with ballots, and backdated ballots to get them in before the deadline. Hundreds of thousands of ballots were dumped into these five states overnight.
    When the president’s team calls out the fraud, Democrats cry foul and demand proof. Trump’s team obliges, provides thousands of sworn statements attesting to the fraud; a video of a woman pulling out boxes of ballots from under a table; truck-drivers’ testimony that they transported batches of ballots across state lines; election workers who were instructed to backdate ballots; and much more, enough to overturn Biden’s win in all five states. Yet nothing happens. The evidence is ignored. Our supposed honorable judges deny election challenges in case after case, refuse to even look at the evidence.,,,
    That’s essentially what those who accept Joe Biden as the winner are saying. Sure, Democrats cheated, lied, broke the law, conspired to overthrow our government, and used their media to cover up their crimes, but hey, they ran out the clock, got Biden over the finish line, he wins.
    No, Joe Biden will not be president, because Joe Biden lost the election.
    To the government/media cabal staging this coup, you don’t get to force an unelected dictator on America. You don’t get to take our massive power, our vast wealth for yourselves because you pulled off a cheap illusion. Whether we have enough honest people in government to expose the Biden lie or not, we know the truth: we elected President Donald J. Trump to a second term.,,,
    https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2021/01/the_2020_insurrection.html

  8. 8
    es58 says:

    Monday, January 4, 2021
    11:50 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPx0OSlKxI0

    Dominion INSIDER Reveals SOURCE(?) of SUITCASES of B
    ALLOTS – Whistleblower Testimony in GA Hearing

    You can’t make this stuff up.

    Boy, if I didn’t just know in my heart that everyone involved with elections was totally honest, I might be concerned by this lady’s testimony, but luckily …

    Off top of my head some of the things she mentioned

    1. She is a supervisor (worked with elections 9 years) tried to get that type of work, but instead they use people that are far less trained.
    2. 24 regular workers got covid, so place she worked was mainly being run by Dominion software people.
    3. Her main work for 5 days was generating sets of test ballots, with known expected outcomes, but these were executed by others.
    4. 1 time, she happened to run 1 test, and, erroneously made a set with an extra ballot for lawfler, and it passed!
    a. Is that 100% failure rate? 1 out of 1?
    b. Do they do *no* negative testing? (i.e.: use batches expected to fail and prove they do?
    c. Worse – are tests hard coded to pass?
    5. She understood that these ballots are “real” and must be destroyed (written through or torn) because they are “precious”, and in the wrong hands, could be used without detection.
    a. No one else there seemed to know this
    b. She was very disturbed, and raised the issue, but was told it was fine.
    c. She was told at 10 pm no more work, but, next AM was told that other workers stayed til 2 Am
    d. She says there were suitcases full of these non-destroyed ballots just sitting around unguarded when she finally left.
    e. She said anyone was buzzed in by just saying they work on elections, and saw people enter that way
    Again, fortunately, everyone involved is to be trusted implicitly, so, as they say, “no worries”.

    Who still has any hope in the integrity of this process?

  9. 9
    Eugene says:

    This election saga is missing one critical element – for some strange reason there are still exactly ZERO pending criminal charges for election fraud, which was blatantly in-your-face.

    This is bizarre, and this does indeed give credit to those conspiracy theories that they all have enough dirt on each other, and there is likely enough dirt on Trump. Anyway, we’ll see the grand finale in just 2 days.

  10. 10
    kairosfocus says:

    At this point, I have to conclude that the major media are essentially untrustworthy and narrative driven. Basic due diligence, balance, restraint etc are forfeit. Dishonest and agenda driven. In too many cases, bought and paid-for liars: those who speak with disregard to truth, in hope of profiting from what is said or suggested being perceived as true. Absent specific reason to believe true, not worth the paper printed on etc. Further to this it is now generally prudent to refuse to say anything to journalists beyond basic social greetings. Failed institution pivotal to sound self-government and democracy. A terrible sign and indicator. KF

    PS: If you have a message, build your own platform and audience, or they will hold your reputation hostage.

  11. 11
    kairosfocus says:

    SHOOTING REPORT:

    https://twitter.com/JovanHPulitzer/status/1345795312489738240

    >>JovanHuttonPulitzer ™ #JovanHuttonPulitzer
    @JovanHPulitzer
    #WARNING our team members who live in Atlanta are being attached. One team members home took 5 shots through the windows in a drive by. Right through his daughters bedroom window. The #BiasAndHateMustStop
    0:05
    828.5K views
    2:13 PM · Jan 3, 2021·Twitter Web App
    10.7K
    Retweets
    1.4K
    Quote Tweets
    15.5K
    Likes>>

    Does not sound good.

    KF

  12. 12
    bornagain77 says:

    FYI Wisconsin Update

    -Wisconsin Legislature to introduce resolution to decert state and award it to Trump on Thursday; first order or business.

    -Resolution does NOT require Governor signature.
    https://twitter.com/Maximus_4EVR/status/1346295668822867969

  13. 13
    kairosfocus says:

    BA77, muy interesante:

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/2021/related/proposals/ar3

    >> 2021 – 2022 LEGISLATURE
    2021 Assembly RESOLUTION 3
    January 4, 2021 – Introduced by Representative Allen.

    ***AUTHORS SUBJECT TO CHANGE***
    1Relating to: addressing election law violations.
    2 Whereas, in the United States, the power to govern is given by the people
    3through the process of democratic elections. It is by this process that our government
    4obtains legitimacy; and
    5 Whereas, we have three branches of government, and the legislative branch,
    6consisting of duly elected representatives of the people, is the branch charged with
    7the power to write the laws. It is through this process that our government maintains
    8legitimacy; and
    9 Whereas, when the executive branch or administrative agencies charged with
    10enforcing the laws instead choose to step outside of the law, or go beyond the law, or
    11stretch the law to something other than what is written, the legitimacy of the
    12government begins to erode
    ; and
    13 Whereas, the 2020 election and the recount of the results of the presidential
    14election have brought to light a number of areas in which the letter of the law is not
    1being followed
    . Those circumstances of departure from the letter of the law include,
    2but are not limited to, the following:
    3 1. Clerks provided absentee ballots to electors without applications, as
    4required by Wis. Stat. § 6.86.

    5 2. Clerks and deputy clerks authorized by the municipal clerk failed to write [–> by hand?!!!]
    6on the official ballot, in the space for official endorsement, the clerk’s initials and
    7official title, as required by Wis. Stat. § 6.87 (1).
    8 3. Clerks issued absentee ballots to electors who were required to enclose a copy
    9of proof of identification or an authorized substitute document, but who failed to do
    10so under Wis. Stat. § 6.87 (1).

    11 4. Clerks failed to enter initials on ballot envelopes [–> by hand, it seems] indicating whether the
    12elector is exempt from providing proof of identification, as required by Wis. Stat. §
    136.87 (2).
    14 5. Clerks in Milwaukee and Dane Counties declared electors in their counties
    15to be “indefinitely confined” under Wis. Stat. § 6.86 (2), causing chaos and confusion,
    16and failed to keep current the mailing list established under that subsection; more
    17than 215,000 electors thus avoided identification requirements and safeguards
    that
    18the legislature has established.
    [–> material scope]
    19 6. Clerks and the boards of canvassers permitted absentee ballots returned
    20without the required witness address under Wis. Stat. § 6.87 (2) to be counted in
    21contravention of Wis. Stat. § 6.87 (6d).
    22 7. Clerks who received absentee ballots with improperly completed certificates
    23or no certificates filled in missing information in contravention of Wis. Stat. § 6.87
    24(9).

    18. The Wisconsin Elections Commission, in contravention of Wis. Stat. § 6.875,
    2barred special voting deputies from entering qualified nursing homes and assisted
    3living facilities, instead mailing ballots to residents directly, thereby avoiding
    4safeguards the legislature put in place to protect our most vulnerable citizens and
    5loved ones.
    6 9. The clerk of the City of Madison ignored Wis. Stat. § 6.855 and created an
    7event named “Democracy in the Park” and, of her own accord, designated alternate
    8sites where absentee ballots could be collected; these ballots were counted in
    9contravention of Wis. Stat. § 6.87 (6); and
    10 Whereas, without legitimacy, the government of the people, by the people, and
    11for the people shall not stand. Instead, our government will devolve into a system
    12of coercion and bribery that seeks to use the guise of elections to hold a degree of
    13credibility
    ; and
    14 Whereas, the people of Wisconsin are demanding that the legislature address
    15questions of legitimacy; now, therefore, be it
    16Resolved by the assembly, That: the Wisconsin State Assembly recognizes
    17that the most important function for a government is to conduct fair and honest
    18elections that follow the duly enacted law; and, be it further
    19Resolved, That when there are significant portions of the population that
    20question the integrity of the elections due to the failure of election officials to follow
    21the letter of the law, it is incumbent upon the legislature to address the issues that
    22are in question
    ; and, be it further
    23Resolved, That the members of the Wisconsin State Assembly place the
    24redress to these and other election law violations and failed administrative
    1procedures as its highest priority and shall take up legislation crafted to ensure civil
    2officers follow the laws as written.
    3 (End) >>

    I do not find here explicit decertification, but there is considerable food for thought. I believe there is an alternative slate and this has effect of implying that the original slate is illegal and counter to legitimate government.

    So, is this meant to implicitly substitute the alternate slate or to provide a predicate for Mr Pence to do so?

    KF

  14. 14
    kairosfocus says:

    DEVELOPMENT: Downstream in the thread with that link:

    https://twitter.com/PatrickByrne/status/1346108445372645376

    >>Patrick Byrne
    @PatrickByrne
    EARTH-SHATTERING NEWS: CHINESE SHIPPING RECEIPT HAS BEEN RECOVERED AMONG HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF SHREDDED BALLOTS IN GEORGIA.
    10:57 AM · Jan 4, 2021·Twitter Web App
    37.7K
    Retweets
    2.4K
    Quote Tweets
    80.2K
    Likes
    Patrick Byrne
    @PatrickByrne
    ·
    15h
    Replying to
    @PatrickByrne
    In the possession of DHS Atlanta.>>

    Is this confirmed? If so, it would trigger a 2018 Executive Order on Foreign interference and perhaps insurrection act.

    Collaborating with a foreign power to subvert elections falls under a certain T-word that used to result in one being hanged, drawn and quartered or similar.

    So, is this rumour or fact.

    KF

    PS: Even if Chinese receipt is false, ballots being shredded . . . in the phone call being distorted in the agit prop media including the BEEB, Pres Trump spoke of 3,000 lb of shredded ballots . . . is direct violation of statute requiring preservation of documents and an act of guilty mind — cover up and frustration of plausibly effective testing per Pulitzer — triggering the chain of inference in 1900 in the previous thread:

    1] it decisively shifts balance of plausibilities as we have established organised guilt in position of power to impose its will, here following up on failed moral duty implying knowing wrongful intent.

    2] It multiplies the credibility of other lines of evidence and testimony, leading to

    3] strongly warranted inference that the programme of action that sent out an army of lawyers and activists to set up destabilising, effectively uncontrolled mail-in ballots and associated 3rd party ballot harvesting was a calculated attempt to subvert the will of the American people expressed through lawful voting, on a continent-wide scale. Further,

    4] The cover-up should lead to immediate recognition that fraud of industrial scale strongly connected to mail-in ballot schemes is now effectively established through cover-up attempt. Thus, the election is tainted similar to 1876, 1824, 1800 and credibly 1960. Tainted, in such a way that

    5] if this is established [cf. HR1], no further elections in the US would be credible. That is,

    6] We are at the “long train of abuses and usurpations . . .” threshold discussed in the US DoI. If resort is not now made to the Constitutional backstops, such is causus belli. Accordingly,

    7] As of urgency, investigations should be initiated at local and federal level, to address the crime and key people clearly need to go to gaol over this, junior people need to face disciplinary measures. Further,

    8] any onward media enabling of fraud through propagation of narrative and agit prop should be taken as showing willful complicity. And,

    9] the scope of issues being continent wide, reforms need to be national. Things are so bad, that

    10] I think we need to drill down on the issue of names frequency to see if the rot is that deep.

  15. 15
    kairosfocus says:

    Details

    https://noqreport.com/2021/01/04/patrick-byrne-bombshell-chinese-shipping-receipt-found-with-shredded-ballots-in-georgia/

    –> seems to be a tweetstream, Byrne is funding and leading investigations

    >>Narrative #2: China sent counterfeit ballots to Fulton County, Georgia. During the counting on election night, all but four people were shoved out of the counting operation on the grounds of a dangerous “water main break” (that turned out to be “a toilet overflowed”).

    Last Wednesday, December 30, the Georgia Senate Judiciary voted to inspect those Fulton County voting operations. Hours later (as I have previously posted) an Enterprise vans pulled up and got filled up with voting materials.

    [–> Fits with Mr Trump in the call]

    A shredding company in neighboring Cobb County, Georgia was on December 31 given roughly 3,000 pounds of ballots to shred. Authorities have come into possession of those materials.

    [–> Fits further with Mr Trump]

    A handful of papers stuck to the side of the shredding bin. They include some unshredded ballots (which 2 federally certified forensic examiners have affied do not match the legitimate ballots). ALSO, A SHIPPING RECEIPT FROM THE CHINESE FIRM THAT PRINTED THE BALLOTS! IN CHINESE!

    [–> fake ballots, if confirmed and multiplied by shredding are acts of guilty mind. I saw reference to picture of the receipt taken down by twitter. Confirmatory evidence needed but such specifics are not typical of fakery]

    Word is the DOJ and DHS have been told to stand down. That President Trump himself has had to call agents on the ground asking them to continue. If you think they should continue, retweet to let @TheJusticeDept know your feelings.

    EARTH-SHATTERING NEWS: CHINESE SHIPPING RECEIPT HAS BEEN RECOVERED AMONG HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF SHREDDED BALLOTS IN GEORGIA.>>

    This fits with the 3,000 lb claim.

    >>>>

    On search for more I found:

    https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2021/01/patrick_byrne_is_back_with_more_astonishing_election_assertions.html

    >>Gabriel Sterling, Georgia’s Voting System Implementation Manager, says Byrne’s contention is hogwash. Note, though, as you listen to Sterling speak, that he does not address the claims from Susan Knox and Sally Grubbs that completed ballots were getting shredded. He also doesn’t explain why, in the midst of this election uproar, Georgia decided that now was the right time to shred documents:

    If you can keep up with Sterling’s incredibly rapid speech, you heard him say that the ballots everyone is getting excited about were paper ballots that the state requires precincts to have on hand in case of emergencies. Moreover, while the requirements if for ballots equal to 10% of the number of registered voters, out of an excess of caution, they had ballots equal to 100%.

    Again, I’ve given you the data. I have no idea where the truth lies.>>

    –> Shredding at this time is dubious
    >>>>

  16. 16

    I think the civilian departments for handling criminal charges have been put on hold for a good reason. First, we’re looking at a largely corrupt DOJ and judiciary and it’s not like filing charges will matter; you just introduce more problems and vulnerabilities in what has already become a ground war via intimidation, blackmail and murder. The military is the only way to handle this swiftly and effectively, which is why Trump made all the recent military and spec op moves. I expect a lot of this to be handled via military personnel and in military court. The rot runs deep and all across the nation.

  17. 17
    es58 says:

    Does a vote in Wisconsin to decertify held on Thursday help at all if they already counted on Wednesday?

  18. 18
    kairosfocus says:

    ES58, a good question, will they count Wed? There is talk of buying 10+ days. KF

  19. 19
    Bob O'H says:

    kf – as pointed out in comment 13, there is nothing about de-certification in the resolution. It’s not clear to me how de-certification could be done – they can say “we want to de-certify”, but that’s all done and dusted. The votes have been sent to DC, and Pence has to open them. After that, if there’s an objection both houses will vote, and we know how that will go (only one house needs to vote to accept, because then the governor-certified votes are the ones that count).

  20. 20
    bornagain77 says:

    “Clearly, it is beyond reasonable doubt that Trump won the state of Georgia.”
    – Cornelius Hunter

    An Example of the Significance of Voting Irregularities
    By an Order of Magnitude
    We have been looking at the reported vote tallies from the 2020 election, here, here, here and here, and have found peculiar patterns for which there are no parsimonious explanations aside from voter fraud. But how firm can a conclusion of fraud be from mere statistics? Furthermore, even if some voter fraud is confirmed, is it not present in every election. So what? Here we address these two questions.
    First, regarding the inference of fraud from a statistical analysis, it is true that such analysis has its limitations. For instance, it may detect an unrealistic level of votes, but it cannot say how those votes were generated. Furthermore, it cannot detect all kinds of voter fraud. Sophisticated voter fraud can conceivably escape the detection of even a detailed statistical analysis. On the other hand, under the right circumstances it is indeed possible to make firm conclusions from the numerical voting tallies. But there really is no need to establish this here because in this case we have substantial independent corroborating evidence.
    In fact, there are literally hundreds of eyewitness reports, images, and video of significant election fraud in the 2020 election. They report on illegal activities and are not mere hearsay. They come from credible witnesses who have come forth to testify publicly, with signed affidavits, and under penalty of prison time. In other words, the finding of voter fraud in the statistical analysis is consistent with the many other evidences.
    Second, so what if there was some voter fraud. Could it have swayed the election? What is striking in the 2020 election is the scale of this inferred and reported fraud. It certainly is significant.
    As one example from our statistical analysis of the Georgia voting fingerprint, if we compute the average fingerprint from the other nine battleground states, and apply it to the Georgia votes, Trump would gain 138,437 votes. This is approximately an order of magnitude more than needed to swing the state of Georgia. Clearly, it is beyond reasonable doubt that Trump won the state of Georgia.
    https://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2021/01/an-example-of-significance-of-voting.html

  21. 21
    kairosfocus says:

    BO’H: see 1876. What is false does not have any right to impose itself as true, especially as issues emerge. KF

  22. 22
    Bob O'H says:

    kf – I have no idea what you are trying to say. Do you mean this comment, or something else?

  23. 23
    kairosfocus says:

    BO’H, ponder how it’s a done deal comes across under these circumstances. KF

  24. 24
    Bob O'H says:

    kf – eh? I have no idea what you’re trying to say. Again, do you mean the comment I linked to, or something else?

    Please, try clearly putting forward your opinions, rather than alluding to them in obscure ways. I’m not that good at reading your mind, I’m afraid.

  25. 25
    kairosfocus says:

    BO’H, see 19 above. KF

  26. 26
    jerry says:

    I assume people have the latest Navarro report titled, ‘The Art of the Steal.” If not

    https://navarroreport.com/#b7231c7c-dfe7-4f2e-aa3e-637bf9610b2a

  27. 27
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: Read here, and understand what happens after you sow the wind. KF

  28. 28
    kairosfocus says:

    PS: Some more on the current line of drift.

  29. 29
    kairosfocus says:

    TRYING TO RUN OUT THE CLOCK?

    Where, when is the actual hearing?

    https://twitter.com/TalkMullins/status/1346111442412568577

    >>Heather Mullins – Real America’s Voice (RAV-TV)
    @TalkMullins
    ·
    Jan 4
    BREAKING! FULTON COUNTY!
    Police cars revolving light
    The hearing set for 11am today to determine if ballots from Nov 3 in Fulton County should be forensically inspected, as supported by a GA Senate subcommittee vote, was just cancelled to be transferred to another county. Story unfolding! @RealAmVoice
    Quote Tweet
    Heather Mullins – Real America’s Voice (RAV-TV)
    @TalkMullins
    · Jan 3
    FULTON COUNTY: A Superior Court has set a remote hearing for tomorrow at 11:00am, to determine if county mail-in ballots from Nov 3rd should be visually & forensically inspected, which a Senate subcommittee vote approved. The lawsuit was filed by @VoterGa last week. @RealAmVoice>>

    KF

  30. 30
    jerry says:

    I have a question. There has been a lot of allegations about shredding in Georgia. What was supposedly shredded. Someone said it was not ballots but the envelopes they were mailed in.

    If the latter, isn’t this necessary information because one of the claims is that they were not legitimate signatures. So no legitimate audit could take place without the signature verification.

  31. 31
    Bob O'H says:

    kf @ 25 – yes, I know what I wrote. But what are you trying to say in response to that? I can’t make head nor tail of it.

  32. 32
    kairosfocus says:

    BO’H:

    The dance becomes inadvertently revealing.

    BO’H, 19: >>as pointed out in comment 13, there is nothing about de-certification in the resolution. It’s not clear to me how de-certification could be done – they can say “we want to de-certify”, but that’s all done and dusted . . . >>

    Kf, 21: >> see 1876 [–> historical reference to a disputed election]. What is false does not have any right to impose itself as true, especially as issues emerge. [–> responds to “done and dusted”]>>

    We do not live in Winston Smith’s dystopian world, and the narrower issue is HOW the manifest frauds of this election and increasingly institutionalised undermining of election integrity will be undone. Options are [a] the easy but unpalatable way, of using Constitutional backstops. Then [b] facing an unconquered Western people who are increasingly aware of an existential threat to liberty thus life too.

    On the wider matter, a will already be geostrategically bad, b would be much worse.

    A year from now, I strongly believe the fraud would be broken, as will be the credibility of those who implemented, enabled and propagandised for it.

    It is possible, so will the Union.

    I don’t think it will go that far, but it is going to be a wild ride to deal with the forces that have already begun to show their hostility, ruthlessness and in some cases totalitarian tendencies even before their expected victory is fully in the bag. It would be much worse to deal with the geostrategic consequences of a leading maritime power being caught up in domestic troubles and paralysed or demoralised internationally. Ponder what happened in SE Asia after 1975 and elsewhere across the world until 1980 or thereabouts. This time, it may be a lot worse.

    But then, for some of the people doing victory laps, that is a feature not a bug.

    In their crooked yardstick driven perceptions, Western Civilisation and the Judaeo-Christian heritage are the main things wrong with the world. They are, frankly, civilisational fifth columnists and in some cases Jacobins and misanthropes . . . some are already looking forward to reigns of 1966-style red guard terror.

    KF

  33. 33
    es58 says:

    KF:

    We do not live in Winston Smith’s dystopian world

    Wish that were true, but Pelosi just instituted Newspeak in the House to remove all gender specific pronouns, reducing free expression, and thereby, reducing free thought, which appears to be a direct attack on the first amendment, and, this on the first day of the new “regime”, and not using that term lightly. e.g.: Tulsi Gabbard has a bill to “Protecting Women’s Sports” . Will it have to be renamed to “Protecting Persons with Double X Chromosomes Sports”? And how long will it be till they crush that terminology under their jackboots? Stay tuned!

  34. 34
    bornagain77 says:

    From today in Washington DC (the day before the rally is suppose to take place)

    https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10224839380431187&set=a.1695400064215

    YIKES!

    ———

    Solomon completed additional analysis of the following states at the precinct level – Michigan, Georgia and Pennsylvania. Solomon uncovered the Dominion software’s illegal algorithms by reverse-engineering the voting returns. His work and resulting evidence are unparalleled to any effort by anyone else to-date. He created the following affidavits with his results:
    In Michigan alone, Solomon proves that 287,980 votes were flipped from Trump to Biden.

    Here is Edward Solomon’s Evidentiary Paper on Michigan.

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UxxiGqcozWIE6w877yTByQPKO3QDU07HcxBc-Eglzso/edit

    In Georgia, Solomon proves that 25,630 votes were flipped from Trump to Biden. Solomon’s work included the counties of Fulton, DeKalb, Cobb and others.

    Here is Edward Solomon’s Evidentiary Paper on Georgia.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-j3msC3EQ0-dxpbN2lsKQm_SoaRrvXSo/view

    In Pennsylvania, Solomon proves that 124,649 votes were flipped from Trump to Biden.

    Here is Edward Solomon’s Evidentiary Paper on Pennsylvania.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1es0uSqp_AmuvicH-R1me-PIIRjKeSNJ2/view

    In these three states there are enough ballots that were transferred from President Trump to Joe Biden that when reversed, the revised totals would prove clearly that President Trump won these three states. These three states result in President Trump winning the election.
    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/01/expert-edward-solomons-analysis-2020-election-shows-thousands-ballots-switched-trump-states-won-mi-ga-pa-biden-enough-steal-election/

  35. 35
    es58 says:

    Have any of Solomon’s data been presented in any court? Otherwise what’s the point?

  36. 36
    es58 says:

    https://youtu.be/7BWrakxOoLs
    Short statistical presentation from Edward Solomon claiming to show evidence of fraud in one small district in Michigan about 14 minutes

  37. 37
    Steve Alten2 says:

    “ U.S. District Judge Mark H. Cohen in Atlanta on Tuesday denied Trump’s motion to “de-certify” Joe Biden’s victory in Georgia, saying the president was requesting “an extraordinary and unprecedented remedy” that would disenfranchise millions of people who lawfully cast their ballots two months ago.
    “To interfere with the result of an election that has already concluded and has been audited and certified on multiple occasions would be unprecedented and harm the public in countless ways,” Cohen said in his decision.”

  38. 38
    kairosfocus says:

    The governance challenge:

    1: Lawfulness is being undermined, through the destruction of the vision of an intelligible, objective moral government coeval with our nature as the core of law; that is, the intelligible natural law pivoting on justice as due balance of rights, freedoms and duties informed by the inescapable first duties of reason. Evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow traveller ideologies have primary responsibility here. The current return of veiled marxism through critical theories has been particularly corrosive in recent decades.

    2: Anarchy is repulsive and autocracy is unable to directly govern large numbers, so the real alternative . . . and the natural state of governance . . . is oligarchy. So, we face reversion to oligarchy.

    3: With lawfulness being undermined, we are liable to find ourselves under lawless ideological oligarchy, the nomenklatura. Signs of this are already evident in the deeply entrenched, too often corrupt deep state.

    4: That, longer term, such will fail economically is of little comfort to the generations facing domineering lawless ideological oligarchy. 1984 is not a utopia.

    KF

  39. 39
    kairosfocus says:

    SA2, the judge made an historic blunder. Unsurprising, but telling: having evidently refused to entertain decisive evidence of tainted election, he failed to see that industrial scale fraud disenfranchises legitimate voters as well as destroys the credibility of elections. He also fails to recognise that the genuine established will of the people is the Constitution, which establishes backstops to address tainted elections such as in 1876. He played Pilate and like that sad character, he has sown the wind. If backstops fail, the would-be ideological oligarchs and the misanthropic Jacobins among them just made themselves into the legitimate locus of responsibility for an existential threat to the liberty (thus, lives) of an unconquered Western people. Historically, an exceedingly unwise move. 4th generation civil war waged by 5th columnists now rapidly approaches the deadly state of “a long train of abuses and usurpations . . .” KF

  40. 40
    kairosfocus says:

    ES58, the pivotal issue is not appeal to rule by juristocracy, but instead to inescapable first duties of responsible reason thus self government of the individual and onward sound constitutional democratic self government. Particularly, duties to truth, to right reason, to prudence, to sound conscience, to neighbour, thus fairness and justice etc. In that context we all have a direct duty to truth and to justice. Truth, being the accurate acknowledgement or description of reality. Justice, being the due balance of rights, freedoms and duties. So, in a kairos of civilisation — a hinge of history for good or ill, each of us is accountable before truth, right reason, prudence to discern the right, fairness, justice. We have a duty to seek, warrant and stand by the truth and the right in a day of existential threat, to the end of not only defending ourselves from those who already gleefully anticipate our subjugation under ideological, lawless, oligarchic tyranny and linked indoctrination — having clearly undermined the integrity of elections — but the onward sound reformation of legitimate government with consent of the governed. The year ahead will be a challenge. KF

  41. 41
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: A sobering news item:

    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/01/fulton-county-blocks-credentialed-republican-poll-monitors-overseeing-absentee-ballots-verifying-signatures-despite-court-order/

    >>Fulton County Blocks Credentialed Republican Poll Monitors From Overseeing Absentee Ballots and Verifying Signatures Despite Court Order
    By Cristina Laila
    Published January 5, 2021 at 8:48pm
    591 Comments

    The Georgia twin senate runoff is going the way we expected.

    The Democrats are going for the steal by any means necessary.

    Poll observers in Fulton County on Tuesday were being blocked by barriers.

    Single individuals were scanning and adjudicating ballots without Republican observers at the World Congress Center.

    The Fulton County Republican Party took the fight to court and got an order from a Fulton County Superior Court Judge.

    The judge ordered elections officials to allow poll monitors to be at least 10 feet away from the processing tables, inside the steel barriers.

    However Fulton County elections officials are still blocking credentialed monitors from overseeing absentee ballots and verifying signatures despite the court order . . . >>

    A 10 ft away condition already undermines scrutiny.

    There is an illustrative picture, we await further developments but this is not a good sign.

    KF

  42. 42
    Viola Lee says:

    “The Democrats are going for the steal by any means necessary”.

    By voting?

    As Bobby Knight, the famous irascible basketball coach, once said when asked why they won the game, replied, “We scored more baskets.”

  43. 43
    kairosfocus says:

    VL, if this were legitimate voting, it would not be manifest theft by industrial scale electoral fraud; something you evidently refuse to face the cumulative force of evidence on, including most recently the cover ups, clock runouts and turnabout projections of guilty mind. FYI, fraud is never valid, never legitimate. If it puts someone already under a cloud of evidence pointing to corruption but shielded by the media in the White House, all you will have succeeded in is imposing “a long train of abuses and usurpations . . .” with the misanthropic Jacobins already running victory laps and salivating over what they intend to do to the despised other. Failure to use the Constitutional backstops, refusal to recognise that such is the underlying will of the people, institutionalisation of the means of fraud via effectively uncontrolled mail-in ballots, 3rd party ballot harvesting and frustration of scrutineering . . . already manifest in the GA Senate runoff elections . . . will only lead to undermining the credibility of government and its officials, and indeed to questioning the sustainability of constitutional representational democracy based on sound elections. No sane person wants to re-open the past of a choice between oligarchs in hopes of a more or less lawful oligarchy in a day of nuclear weapons. However, in the end, such will not prevail, but the geostrategic consequences will predictably be awful. KF

  44. 44

    Viola Lee,

    Can I ask you how, in your mind, #42 is not trolling? Is that really what you want to “contribute” to a conversation – trolling?

  45. 45
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: It seems that there are close results in GA in a context where there is already a cloud of manifest frustration of sound scrutineering and the further carrying forward of fraud-conducive effectively uncontrolled mail-in ballots and linked 3rd party ballot harvesting; we already know where that is liable to go, in a context where shredders seem to be on call and ballots needing to be scanned for kinematic artifacts are not forthcoming. Further to this, it seems from exit polling that 3/4 of Republican voters believe there was material fraud in the Presidential election. This already explosive situation is building up into not a mere Constitutional but a Civilisational crisis with an undefeated Western people facing an existential threat to liberty (thus, necessarily, life). The obvious geostrategic vultures are circling, and others . . . even more dangerous . . . lurk in shadows nearby. Underlying all of this, it is obvious that our worldviews and linked cultural agendas are in the stakes, pivoting on our vision of responsible rational freedom. KF

  46. 46
    kairosfocus says:

    PS: Given the underlying worldviews and cultural agendas issue, I again table:

    We can readily identify at least seven inescapable first duties of reason. “Inescapable,” as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to them; i.e. they are self-evident. Namely, duties, to truth, to right reason, to prudence, to sound conscience, to neighbour; so also, to fairness and justice etc. Such built-in . . . thus, universal . . . law is not invented by parliaments, kings or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such; they are recognised, often implicitly as an indelible part of our evident nature. Hence, “natural law,” coeval with our humanity, famously phrased in terms of “self-evident . . . rights . . . endowed by our Creator” in the US Declaration of Independence, 1776. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice, the pivot of law. The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly aquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right. Likewise, Aristotle long since anticipated Pilate’s cynical “what is truth?”: truth says of what is, that it is; and of what is not, that it is not. [Metaphysics, 1011b, C4 BC.] Simple in concept, but hard to establish on the ground; hence — in key part — the duties to right reason, prudence, fairness etc. Thus, too, we may compose sound civil law informed by that built-in law of our responsibly, rationally free morally governed nature; from such, we may identify what is unsound or false thus to be reformed or replaced even though enacted under the colour and solemn ceremonies of law. The first duties, also, are a framework for understanding and articulating the corpus of built-in law of our morally governed nature, antecedent to civil laws and manifest our roots in the Supreme Law-giver, the inherently good, utterly wise and just creator-God, the necessary (so, eternal), maximally great being at the root of reality.

    It is increasingly clear that evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow traveller ideologies, with their cultural agendas are a menace to sound civilisation in general; and so too, to sustainable, sound constitutional democratic self-government in particular. Marxist critical theories are clearly a key current manifestation of the threat. They must be exposed for what they are, tied to their roots, also exposed on their strategy of exploiting real and/or perceived oppression to trigger colour/culture revolution, and decisively broken.

    Only through this can we restore a degree of legitimacy and credibility.

    In this context, those who imagine they have a democratic mandate to impose radical revolution must be sharply reminded that fraud is never legitimate.

  47. 47
    Bob O'H says:

    kf @ 32 –

    The dance becomes inadvertently revealing.

    Quite so.

    BO’H, 19: >>as pointed out in comment 13, there is nothing about de-certification in the resolution. It’s not clear to me how de-certification could be done – they can say “we want to de-certify”, but that’s all done and dusted . . . >>

    Kf, 21: >> see 1876 [–> historical reference to a disputed election].

    OK, but how is that relevant? I can’t understand then point you are trying to make if you don’t make it

    What is false does not have any right to impose itself as true, especially as issues emerge. [–> responds to “done and dusted”]>>

    OK, but in what way is it a response? Are you saying that it isn’t all done and dusted? If that’s what you are claiming, why are you claiming it? Or are you just asserting it without bothering to back up your claim?

    Please, at least try to develop an argument.

  48. 48
    kairosfocus says:

    U/D: I have added U/D 1 to OP, showing by photograph even more brazen frustration of scrutineering yesterday in GA than in November last year. Observe, “Real America’s Voice reporter Heather Mullins captured video at the World Congress Center where single individuals were scanning and adjudicating ballots without Republican observers . . . . Screens are all facing away from media pen. No observers. No dual control. Single individuals scanning ballots into dominion while kept from public view.” KF

  49. 49
    kairosfocus says:

    BO’H:

    refusal to respond on your part does not constitute failure of relevant argument on mine. In 1876, there was a key disputed election with serious questions of fraud, which led to a commission set up to resolve it, attempting to fulfill backstops in the Constitution.

    Further to such, here are my actual remarks in 13 above:

    I do not find here explicit decertification, but there is considerable food for thought. I believe there is an alternative slate and this has effect of implying that the original slate is illegal and counter to legitimate government.

    So, is this meant to implicitly substitute the alternate slate or to provide a predicate for Mr Pence to do so?

    That was what was put on the table FROM THE OUTSET, and it is what should have been addressed in your responses.

    Nevertheless, the material issue is manifest industrial scale fraud, and fraud is never legitimate. The just added onward photo illustrating even more brazen action yesterday, speaks on how the slippery slope ratchet works.

    KF

  50. 50
    Bob O'H says:

    kf – I would have loved to have responded, but, as I indicated several times, I couldn’t work out what you were trying to communicate.

    Yes, there was a disputed election in 1876. So? As far as I can tell, the main relevance is that it lead to the Electoral Counts Act.

    Further to such, here are my actual remarks in 13 above:

    I do not find here explicit decertification, but there is considerable food for thought. I believe there is an alternative slate and this has effect of implying that the original slate is illegal and counter to legitimate government.

    So, is this meant to implicitly substitute the alternate slate or to provide a predicate for Mr Pence to do so?

    That was what was put on the table FROM THE OUTSET, and it is what should have been addressed in your responses.

    I guess you missed the bit where I wrote “as pointed out in comment 13, there is nothing about de-certification in the resolution”. I think that does address comment 13. I was pointing out that the discussion by you and ES58 about the resolution calling for decertification was irrelevant, because you had already pointed out that the resolution didn’t call for decertification.

  51. 51
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: Early this morning, complete with Twitter’s cenmsoring comment:

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1346698217304584192?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

    >>Donald J. Trump
    @realDonaldTrump
    ·
    6h
    If Vice President @Mike_Pence
    comes through for us, we will win the Presidency. ,b>Many States want to decertify the mistake they made in certifying incorrect & even fraudulent numbers in a process NOT approved by their State Legislatures (which it must be). Mike can send it back!

    This claim about election fraud is disputed>>

    Of course, fraud is never legitimate.

    KF

  52. 52
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: Food for thought:

    https://www.wnd.com/2021/01/house-reelect-trump/

    >>THE 12TH AMENDMENT

    The House should reelect Trump
    Andy Schlafly points out: ‘We are not a democracy, and never have been’
    Andy Schlafly By Andy Schlafly
    Published January 5, 2021 at 7:35pm

    In our system of divided government, the Constitution vests the primary authority in the House of Representatives. Only the House may originate tax bills; only the House always consists entirely of members elected by their local constituents; and only the House selects the next president in times of crisis, as we have now.

    We are not a democracy, and never have been. We are a constitutional republic, and the Founders were strongly opposed to democracy and the many severe problems it can create. [–> strictly a constitutional republic with representative democratic elements in a matrix of checks and balances]

    As a republic, we elect representatives who then pass laws or, in this case, elect the president. The 12th Amendment to the Constitution, based on its original text, explains that the House has the authority and duty to elect the president when no candidate has a majority of the electoral votes.

    “But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice.”

    Enough congressmen have objected for establishing a quorum in the House, where each state delegation there has one vote. Speaker Nancy Pelosi cannot stop this process under the Constitution, and the House members should simply convene and elect the next president, with one vote per state . . . >>

    In times that try men’s souls, we must recall that fraud [manifestly shown, start with https://hereistheevidence.com/ ] is never legitimate and any who enable fraud are tainted by it and its consequences. Which are already going to be bad, globally.

    KF

  53. 53
    kairosfocus says:

    PS: As a reminder, as it has been so often passed over in silence, Plato’s Ship of State from The Republic, written in the aftermath of the failure of Athenian Democracy through the Peloponnesian war, ghosts of Alcibiades and Socrates hovering:

    It is not too hard to figure out that our civilisation is in deep trouble and is most likely headed for shipwreck. (And of course, that sort of concern is dismissed as “apocalyptic,” or neurotic pessimism that refuses to pause and smell the roses.)

    Plato’s Socrates spoke to this sort of situation, long since, in the ship of state parable in The Republic, Bk VI:

    >>[Soc.] I perceive, I said, that you are vastly amused at having plunged me into such a hopeless discussion; but now hear the parable, and then you will be still more amused at the meagreness of my imagination: for the manner in which the best men are treated in their own States is so grievous that no single thing on earth is comparable to it; and therefore, if I am to plead their cause, I must have recourse to fiction, and put together a figure made up of many things, like the fabulous unions of goats and stags which are found in pictures.

    Imagine then a fleet or a ship in which there is a captain [–> often interpreted, ship’s owner] who is taller and stronger than any of the crew, but he is a little deaf and has a similar infirmity in sight, and his knowledge of navigation is not much better. [= The people own the community and in the mass are overwhelmingly strong, but are ill equipped on the whole to guide, guard and lead it]

    The sailors are quarrelling with one another about the steering – every one is of opinion that he has a right to steer [= selfish ambition to rule and dominate], though he has never learned the art of navigation and cannot tell who taught him or when he learned, and will further assert that it cannot be taught, and they are ready to cut in pieces any one who says the contrary. They throng about the captain, begging and praying him to commit the helm to them [–> kubernetes, steersman, from which both cybernetics and government come in English]; and if at any time they do not prevail, but others are preferred to them, they kill the others or throw them overboard [ = ruthless contest for domination of the community], and having first chained up the noble captain’s senses with drink or some narcotic drug [ = manipulation and befuddlement, cf. the parable of the cave], they mutiny and take possession of the ship and make free with the stores; thus, eating and drinking, they proceed on their voyage in such a manner as might be expected of them [–> Cf here Luke’s subtle case study in Ac 27].

    Him who is their partisan and cleverly aids them in their plot for getting the ship out of the captain’s hands into their own whether by force or persuasion [–> Nihilistic will to power on the premise of might and manipulation making ‘right’ ‘truth’ ‘justice’ ‘rights’ etc], they compliment with the name of sailor, pilot, able seaman, and abuse the other sort of man, whom they call a good-for-nothing; but that the true pilot must pay attention to the year and seasons and sky and stars and winds, and whatever else belongs to his art, if he intends to be really qualified for the command of a ship, and that he must and will be the steerer, whether other people like or not-the possibility of this union of authority with the steerer’s art has never seriously entered into their thoughts or been made part of their calling.

    Now in vessels which are in a state of mutiny and by sailors who are mutineers, how will the true pilot be regarded? Will he not be called by them a prater, a star-gazer, a good-for-nothing?

    [Ad.] Of course, said Adeimantus.

    [Soc.] Then you will hardly need, I said, to hear the interpretation of the figure, which describes the true philosopher in his relation to the State [ –> here we see Plato’s philosoppher-king emerging]; for you understand already.

    [Ad.] Certainly.

    [Soc.] Then suppose you now take this parable to the gentleman who is surprised at finding that philosophers have no honour in their cities; explain it to him and try to convince him that their having honour would be far more extraordinary.

    [Ad.] I will.

    [Soc.] Say to him, that, in deeming the best votaries of philosophy to be useless to the rest of the world, he is right; but also tell him to attribute their uselessness to the fault of those who will not use them, and not to themselves. The pilot should not humbly beg the sailors to be commanded by him –that is not the order of nature; neither are ‘the wise to go to the doors of the rich’ –the ingenious author of this saying told a lie –but the truth is, that, when a man is ill, whether he be rich or poor, to the physician he must go, and he who wants to be governed, to him who is able to govern. [–> the issue of competence and character as qualifications to rule] The ruler who is good for anything ought not to beg his subjects to be ruled by him [ –> down this road lies the modern solution: a sound, well informed people will seek sound leaders, who will not need to manipulate or bribe or worse, and such a ruler will in turn be checked by the soundness of the people, cf. US DoI, 1776]; although the present governors of mankind are of a different stamp; they may be justly compared to the mutinous sailors, and the true helmsmen to those who are called by them good-for-nothings and star-gazers.

    [Ad.] Precisely so, he said.

    [Soc] For these reasons, and among men like these, philosophy, the noblest pursuit of all, is not likely to be much esteemed by those of the opposite faction [–> the sophists, the Demagogues, Alcibiades and co, etc]; not that the greatest and most lasting injury is done to her by her opponents, but by her own professing followers, the same of whom you suppose the accuser to say, that the greater number of them are arrant rogues, and the best are useless; in which opinion I agreed [–> even among the students of the sound state (here, political philosophy and likely history etc.), many are of unsound motivation and intent, so mere education is not enough, character transformation is critical].

    [Ad.] Yes.

    [Soc.] And the reason why the good are useless has now been explained?

    [Ad.] True.

    [Soc.] Then shall we proceed to show that the corruption of the majority is also unavoidable [–> implies a need for a corruption-restraining minority providing proverbial salt and light, cf. Ac 27, as well as justifying a governing structure turning on separation of powers, checks and balances], and that this is not to be laid to the charge of philosophy any more than the other?

    [Ad.] By all means.

    [Soc.] And let us ask and answer in turn, first going back to the description of the gentle and noble nature.[ — > note the character issue] Truth, as you will remember, was his leader, whom he followed always and in all things [ –> The spirit of truth as a marker]; failing in this, he was an impostor, and had no part or lot in true philosophy [–> the spirit of truth is a marker, for good or ill] . . . >>

    (There is more than an echo of this in Acts 27, a real world case study. [Luke, a physician, was an educated Greek with a taste for subtle references.] This blog post, on soundness in policy, will also help)

    Is 2400 years of advance warning enough? Why is this not part of every high school curriculum?

  54. 54
    jerry says:

    How the Democrats won Georgia both in the presidential election and last night in the senatorial elections. Stacey Abrams in her own words

    We were able to secure absentee ballot rules that actually treated every single voter the same. We were able to mitigate and eviscerate the exact-match system that was keeping so many people off the rolls

    No control over who the person is sending in a ballot.

  55. 55
    kairosfocus says:

    BO’H, the dance continues. As an educated person you know that what is implied can be at least as relevant as what is stated, indeed per logic in p => q, q is the necessary condition of p; necessary for p to obtain so that if q is false p is falsified. In 13 I pointed out the significant omission of a direct statement but noted that what was a separately known fact, an alternative slate chosen by the same legislature, is multiplied by the direct import of assertions that the originally certified slate is tainted by fraud, pointing to the 12th Amdt power to select slate. The result would be a vote by states in congress per same amendment. Further to such, in 1876, as you know but evaded, a disputed election tainted by fraud led to putting the election in the hands of Congress, To resolve, they chose a panel to investigate and then there was a negotiated settlement. The onward act cannot supersede the constitutional provision, and fraud — manifestly shown, start here https://hereistheevidence.com/ — cannot ever be or become legitimate, those who uphold or enable it only become parties after the fact. In short legitimacy of government is in the stakes at this point. if it breaks down utterly, it will have to be eventually restored, but the cost of that in the US and across the world will be predictably incalculably horrific. KF

  56. 56
    kairosfocus says:

    Jerry, yes. See the OP for how the ballots — not votes — were “counted”; contemptuously utterly frustrating scrutineering and transparency much less chain of custody. The implications are chilling i/l/o the issue of a long chain of abuses and usurpations. If you wanted further demonstration of the fraud, there it is. The question today is whether Congress itself will become party to the fraud after the fact. At which point you have a comprehensive constitutional crisis and existential threat toan as yet undefeated Western people. 2500 years of history shows that such threats against such people do not end well. In the end, molon labe. KF

  57. 57
    jerry says:

    Kf,

    I have been to Thermopylae.

  58. 58
    kairosfocus says:

    So, you understand.

    Apparently, they don’t.

    They may have to learn the hard way, yet again.

    I assure you modern von Steubens and Lafayettes will come in.

    We know what is in the stakes.

  59. 59
    jerry says:

    Apparently, they don’t.

    They may have to learn the hard way, yet again.

    I repeat

    The Montagnards always turn on the Girondists.

    They don’t realize this or they don’t care. They rather have a dopamine rush for a few minutes by giving the rest of us the middle finger before they themselves get hauled away. Robespierre went to the guillotine.

  60. 60
    Bob O'H says:

    kf @ 24 –

    As a republic, we elect representatives who then pass laws or, in this case, elect the president. The 12th Amendment to the Constitution, based on its original text, explains that the House has the authority and duty to elect the president when no candidate has a majority of the electoral votes.

    This is where the argument falls down. One candidate has “ta majority of the electoral votes”: the certificates are all here. For it to work, both candidates would have to have the same number of votes from the electoral college.

  61. 61
    Bob O'H says:

    “kf @ 24 – ”
    Sorry I meant 52. Apologies for any utter confusion caused.

  62. 62
    Bob O'H says:

    kf @ 55 –
    (and yes, it is 55 this time)

    BO’H, the dance continues. As an educated person you know that what is implied can be at least as relevant as what is stated,

    True, but of course it has to be clear what is being implied. I’m afraid it’s not as clear as you seem to think it is in your writing.

    I’m not sure what the rest of your comment has to do with whether the Wisconsin resolution is about de-certification (which is what my comment @ 19 was specifically addressing), and I suspect any follow-up won’t clarify matters.

  63. 63
    jerry says:

    There is a wild card in the control of the senate. There is one conservative Democratic senator, Manchin of West Virginia. It will be interesting to see what he does.

  64. 64
    kairosfocus says:

    BO’H, ballots tainted by industrial scope fraud as demonstrated — see https://hereistheevidence.com/ (which was already brought to your attention as a start point) — and as is apparently ongoing in the runoff cf U/D 1 to OP — do not constitute votes. At electoral college level, seven key states because of those issues have had legislators propose alternative slates. The alternatives are to face the taint and use the backstops or else face an undefeated western people who will respond beyond calculation and in the face of any odds to an existential threat. Which this is. KF

  65. 65
    Bob O'H says:

    Well, I was right. That didn1t clarify what the c0mment had to do with whether the Wisconsin resolution is about de-certification.

    Yay me.

  66. 66
    bornagain77 says:

    Votes inexplicably caught going negative once again, and only going negative for the Republican candidate.

    MORE ELECTION FRAUD: 32,400 Votes Removed from Senator Perdue’s Vote Tally Live on TV
    By Joe Hoft – January 6, 2021
    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/01/election-fraud-32400-votes-removed-senator-perdues-vote-tally-live-tv/

    If there is an legitimate explanation, such as an ”error correction’, then why is it that the ‘error corrections’ only happen to the Republican candidates , and only their vote totals are the ones that are subtracted away from?

    Of course, as the Data scientists pointed out last week in their expert testimony to the Georgia Legislature, there really is no legitimate explanation as to why vote totals should ever go negative.

    DATA SCIENTISTS SHOCKING ELECTION TESTIMONY – video
    https://rumble.com/vcay7j-data-scientists-shocking-election-testimony.html

    Proof of fraud,, in vanishing Trump votes (with video clip from Scott Adams of Dilbert fame)
    By Andrea Widburg
    https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2021/01/proof_of_fraud_may_lie_in_vanishing_trump_votes.html

  67. 67
    kairosfocus says:

    BO’H, your failure to engage the logic of implication and associated facts is duly noted. About a year from now, when the awful cost of the ongoing folly is more apparent, we can revisit what is going on now. KF

  68. 68
    Bob O'H says:

    ba77 – how do you know that wasn’t because of a problem at ABC, rather than at the actual count?

  69. 69
    kairosfocus says:

    BA77, there is a lot of evidence, it is manifest that it is not being listened to. the consequences will in due course have their say. KF

  70. 70
    kairosfocus says:

    BO’H, you are resorting to making up just so stories. KF

  71. 71
    Viola Lee says:

    Jerry write, “There is a wild card in the control of the senate. There is one conservative Democratic senator, Manchin of West Virginia. It will be interesting to see what he does.”

    This is true. However, there are also some Republican senators (Romney comes to mind, and there are other) that might be in a more bipartisan state of mind. The antics of the election-fraud crowd has, I think, changed the perspective of some of the more moderate Republicans. The GOP is definitely not a unified party at this point.

  72. 72
    kairosfocus says:

    Further from history. In 1947/8 and again in 67 and 73, the Israelis were confronted with existential threats. The first time, they literally went fro Concentration camps converted into refugee camps to the battlefield. In ’67 they left a dozen aircraft to watch the backdoor (they had a tangle with the Lebanese) and sent every stick that could fly to knock out the Egyptian air force; followed by 20+ year old reworked Shermand with some Pattons and Centurions in an epic armoured sweep. The third time, Centurions and Shermans stood basically to the last to hold the Syrians and they nearly went nuclear. I wonder if the message is beginning to get through? KF

  73. 73
    jerry says:

    It is so easy to understand how Nazi Germany happened by what is happening today.

    I Now Better Understand the ‘Good German’

    https://pjmedia.com/columns/dennis-prager/2021/01/05/i-now-better-understand-the-good-german-n1305198

  74. 74
    jerry says:

    there are also some Republican senators (Romney comes to mind, and there are other) that might be in a more bipartisan state of mind.

    I doubt any Republican would agree to some of the more extreme proposals by the Democrats. Romney would probably be recalled if he agreed to court packing or some of the other crazy proposals being considered. It would happen fast. It’s one thing to approve their cabinet nominations, it is quite another to approve direct assaults on society and its underpinnings.

    The GOP is definitely not a unified party at this point.

    Not true. How did Trump get 74 million votes? They may be more unified than at any time in recent years. Never believe a claim by a liberal which is where thoughts such as these originate. One has to understand that everything in the press that is remotely political is fake news and is there to control a narrative. The narrative comes first, not truth.

    A lot of people believe because Trump may be gone, things will settle down. That’s what they hope but an unstable situation has been set in motion that can not lead to a settled society. I know because I converse with several frequently and they just want their checks to keep coming in and the food to be on the grocery shelves. But unfortunately human nature has a way of intruding. The sad thing is they do not care about their children’s future only their current comfort.

    What will the end game be?

  75. 75
    kairosfocus says:

    VL, politics as usual is essentially over and the uniparty’s denizens on both sides of the bipartisan divide will feel the result. When elections are stolen through blatant fraud so the message is sent that the last reasonably free and fair election was 2016, and entire institutions go quisling, it is going to have incalculable consequences. At Crete in 1941, the RN Admiral spending ships like water to back up the army was asked why he did not withdraw. His reply, it takes three years to build a new ship; three hundred to build a new tradition. That is the cost of the kind of breach of trust, breach of honour that is increasingly evident. That we are clearly there tells us just how bad things have gone among the governance classes. But then, for such, honour has no meaning. KF

  76. 76
    Viola Lee says:

    Jerry says, “I doubt any Republican would agree to some of the more extreme proposals by the Democrats.” I agree. But there are a very large of bills on hold, because of McConnell, that are not extreme proposals, that some Republicans might be ready to support.

    As for the party being split, I was thinking in particular of the Congress. The votes today will probably show a clear split between those who believe the election was fraudulent and those that don’t and are ready to accept that Biden won.

  77. 77
    jerry says:

    The votes today will probably show a clear split between those who believe the election was fraudulent and those that don’t and are ready to accept that Biden won.

    I doubt anyone of them thinks the election was legitimate. You have to be really stupid to believe that. Remember Stacey Abrams just admitted to the scam that flipped Georgia.

    They may want to just move on as opposed to getting caught up in debates that won’t go very far. They may also be glad to see Trump go. Not for what he accomplished but for his style.

    There are also some Republicans that are members of the swamp and see Trump as a threat to their financial and social world. For Romney it certainly not financial. But he represents a certain willingness to go along to get along.

    Some see the country potentially disintegrating and want to see if they can save it by fighting another day.

  78. 78
    Steve Alten2 says:

    Protesters have now breached the capital building and the senate is being evacuated.

  79. 79
    kairosfocus says:

    VL, I challenge you to address this on merits, for starters: https://hereistheevidence.com/ That is where things have gone. The real danger is the break out of fatal disaffection; the geostrategic losses are going to bear hard on people across the world but China and Iran have grossly miscalculated. Badly.. As to those who think it’s back to business as usual and we can try to win the next election — oh we must heal [what, enable and endorse or submit to fraud on top of holocaust?], they simply do not see what is implicit in undermining the integrity of elections; which has attained critical mass after decades of effort, on public fact. The elections door is in danger of being locked. Withdrawal of the peaceful consent of the governed is nothing to toy with, and that is already happening now. If the backstops don’t work, the next level will be truly awful, but those who played dirty games have lit the fire threatening to flash over explosively. As for the major media, their credibility is finished. A whole new ecology is needed. The marxists who imagine they have won, will have something coming to them they should have foreseen on 230 years of history of history of radical revolutions. It is a capital blunder to present an undefeated Western people with an existential threat. And no, your denial and media marginalisation are not going to change the dynamics that have been let loose. To start a war is one thing, to end it on your terms is another, and those behind years of slander politics and electoral fraud seemingly will have to learn that the hard way. KF

  80. 80
    kairosfocus says:

    Jerry, the ones hankering for business as usual don’t understand colour/culture revolution. The most we can now hope for is rebuilding of something worth having, never mind what is irretrievably lost. Ask the people who have worked to rebuild after the Iron Curtain fell, on what has been irretrievably lost. Ask the Germans what two needless world wars cost them, and what it was like to have three regime failures in about thirty years. Does anyone study history anymore? KF

  81. 81
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N:

    A few minutes ago, I wrote in grim warning, unaware of events:

    I challenge you to address this on merits, for starters: https://hereistheevidence.com/ That is where things have gone. The real danger is the break out of fatal disaffection; the geostrategic losses are going to bear hard on people across the world but China and Iran have grossly miscalculated. Badly.. As to those who think it’s back to business as usual and we can try to win the next election — oh we must heal [what, enable and endorse or submit to fraud on top of holocaust?], they simply do not see what is implicit in undermining the integrity of elections; which has attained critical mass after decades of effort, on public fact. The elections door is in danger of being locked. Withdrawal of the peaceful consent of the governed is nothing to toy with, and that is already happening now. If the backstops don’t work, the next level will be truly awful, but those who played dirty games have lit the fire threatening to flash over explosively. As for the major media, their credibility is finished.

    Now it seems protest has become riot in the Capitol building itself and a woman seems to have been shot there. That is a sad and unwelcome development; in any lawful state, riot is never justified.

    What happened is unjustifiable, even as events over past months were also unjustifiable, but perhaps it can trigger a pause to see what is lurking in these waters, after a summer of red guard riots.

    I think a pause to seriously reconsider the tainted election and what it might lead to could open a door to judicious use of the Constitutional backstops, which are the unquestioned underlying will of the people.

    Otherwise, fatal disaffection lurks.

    Please, take option a.

    Option b is too incalculably dangerous and uncertain for any responsible nation.

    We — and I mean here what 7.8 billions of us — do not need a flashover into national conflagration.

    Please.

    KF

    PS/U/D: it seems that suddenly DC Officials want to deploy the National Guard (recall, when the White House was under near siege months ago?) but DoD has reportedly refused; of course, fog of war is relevant to such reports. We can expect a Presidential announcement in coming hours.

  82. 82
    kairosfocus says:

    U/D:

    1] confirmed, a young woman was shot in her neck and dropped instantly, a bad sign. A Police officer with AR15 was nearby and someone is heard, did you have to shoot her.

    2] Mr Trump tweets

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1346912780700577792

    >>Donald J. Trump
    @realDonaldTrump
    I am asking for everyone at the U.S. Capitol to remain peaceful. No violence! Remember, WE are the Party of Law & Order – respect the Law and our great men and women in Blue. Thank you!
    4:13 PM · Jan 6, 2021·Twitter for iPhone>>

    Perhaps, it is time to pull back to option a.

    KF

  83. 83
    Seversky says:

    I remember speculation a couple of weeks ago that Trump would arrange some sort of stunt to disrupt this count. This is exactly what we have. I hope you’re all satisfied.

  84. 84
    LarTanner says:

    What’s happening is an attempted coup. The insurgents need to be dealt with and Trump should resign immediately. With the Georgia runoff, once again the American people have spoken in a fully legitimate and fair election – despite GOP attempts at voter suppression and Trump’s recorded attempts to unlawfully influence the vote tally. Trump has lost and lost again since the mid-terms because he is a bad, corrupt, and incompetent president.

    These little tantrums will fade into historical infamy, and the good America will rise again.

  85. 85
    Sven Mil says:

    Look at all those god-fearing Trumpers go!
    I’m sure they’re all very well-educated and not ignorant at all.

    That’s your base guys!
    Congrats!

  86. 86
    LarTanner says:

    That’s your base guys!

    Yep. All the fellow travelers are fully revealed for who and what they are.

  87. 87
    jerry says:

    With the Georgia runoff, once again the American people have spoken in a fully legitimate and fair election

    Stacey Abrams let out how they stole the presidential and senate elections. So I am not sure how anyone could call either election legitimate or fair.

  88. 88
    bornagain77 says:

    I’m confused, I thought ‘mostly peaceful’ protests, where only stores, Churches, police departments, and not a small part of downtown Minneapolis, got burnt to the ground, were OK with Democrats? Shoot, if I recall correctly, didn’t Kamala Harris arrange millions of dollars to be donated to have those rioters, excuse me, to have those ‘peaceful protesters’ bailed out of jail once they were arrested for ‘peacefully protesting’?

  89. 89
    kairosfocus says:

    LT, protest, even where some idiots get out of hand and riot and attempted coup are utterly different. Military units would be deployed to seize power, just the opposite of what happened. Over the top projection duly noted. KF

  90. 90
    kairosfocus says:

    SM, much the same, especially given what happened all across 2020. KF

  91. 91
    kairosfocus says:

    Sev, shame on you. KF

  92. 92
    kairosfocus says:

    Jerry, we are seeing refusal to acknowledge more than adequate evidence of a tainted election. That is sad as beyond a certain point it can flash over into fatal disaffection. KF

  93. 93
    kairosfocus says:

    BA77, it is likely forgotten that the riots began on Mr Trump’s inauguration day, I vividly recall the limousine used by Mr Wallnau that was spray painted with Antifa slogans and burned. KF

  94. 94
    Steve Alten2 says:

    Yes, We all remember the Left wing demonstrators in 2016 storming the capital to try to obstruct the counting of the electoral college votes after weeks of Hillary fanning the flames with unsupported accusations of a stolen election.

  95. 95
    kairosfocus says:

    SA2, your attempt to whitewash a summer of riots . . . continuing into the new year BTW . . . fails. As to your 1984 style dismissal of decisive evidence of a tainted election, I simply challenge you to answer this substantially: https://hereistheevidence.com/ I predict, you will continue to evade the substantial issue in order to play the troll. You have become an enabler of election fraud and of the worst holocaust in history, sad. KF

  96. 96
    LarTanner says:

    KF, Trump directly incited violence in an attempt to stop the transition of power. It’s a coup.

    You can blather on about “tainted election,” socialism/marxism, and all the other assorted conspiracy garbage that pollutes your head. But the legal record, the vote in Georgia, and the presumed certification of Biden as the winner — to say nothing of the dozens of repeated attestations by credible election authorities — all point to the simple reality that the election was secure. The election reflects the fact that people are and have been unhappy with Trump’s governance for some time. All he had to do was get you some judges and utter the magic abortion words, and you hitched your hypocritical little wagon to a monster.

    And Stacey Abrams is an American hero for encouraging people to vote who for years have faced the GOP’s suppression tactics. Through her tireless efforts, those people found their voice.

  97. 97
    kairosfocus says:

    LT, nonsense and you know it. A coup would necessarily involve major military units and that simply did not happen. What we have is riots by idiots. I similarly challenge you to substantially engage evidence https://hereistheevidence.com/ KF

  98. 98
    jerry says:

    And Stacey Abrams is an American hero for encouraging people to vote who for years have faced the GOP’s suppression tactics. Through her tireless efforts, those people found their voice.

    Then why did she suppress finding out who these people were? Or if they actually were the ones sending in the ballots. If she had nothing to hide, she would have done it openly and proudly.

    Actually it was Stacey Abrams suppressing the people from voting because the very voters she said she was representing didn’t do the voting. She had to use fake signatures as others were taking their vote from them.

  99. 99
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: What we have is riots by idiots.

    Idiots inflamed by weeks and weeks of rhetoric by Trump and his supporters. Like yourself who has been predicting another revolution. Who has encouraged bypassing the courts and the due process of law.

    Well done. This is what happens when you whip up a frenzy without respect for the law. What are you doing to try and still the troubled waters? Are you even trying to let people know you object to police officers being chased through the capital building? What have you been doing for weeks and weeks except to fan the flames and promote the idea that the end is near for the Democrats and their evil plan?

    How are you going to defeat the Kraken now that its rampaging?

  100. 100
    mike1962 says:

    LarTanner: That’s your base guys! Yep. All the fellow travelers are fully revealed for who and what they are.

    Hmm. Let’s see. Maybe 10000 people showed up. Out of 75 million Trump voters.

    Okay, that’s…. (calculator clacking…) about 0.01% of Trump supporters. And the ones causing trouble were a lot less. (How many were (ironically named) Antifa? Good question. We’ll see.) So, not really a lot of “the base.”

    (Never forget, think about in bed tonight, and you will think about it, sooner or later death awaits.)

  101. 101
    JVL says:

    Mike1962: Maybe 10000 people showed up

    Enough to chase the police protecting the capitol building away from their posts. Enough to take the flour of the Congress. What kind of a message does that send? What are the rest of the 75 million going to think? How many will consider: gosh, does that all it takes to disrupt due process and the constitutional procedures? What does this say about the party of law and order? Their leader whipped up the frenzy and released the Kraken.

    BTW, when you are in bed tonight, drifting off to sleep, remember, you are going die. Sooner or later. It may be tonight. It’s the most important fact that you can’t get away from. Death awaits.

    Yup, like the woman who was shot today during the rioting. She was going to die someday anyway.

    It’ll be alright when Trump calls in the troops and invokes the insurrection act. That’s what some of you have been predicting. Happy now?

  102. 102
    bornagain77 says:

    How quickly Dims forget, This is what Washington DC looked like this summer, fire in every direction, by what was then dubbed a ‘mostly peaceful protest’ by the Main Stream Media
    https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10119488459178464&set=a.10100289154004934

  103. 103
    JVL says:

    Bornagain77: How quickly Dims forget, This is what Washington DC looked like this summer,

    Of course, how stupid of us to forget when the Democrats chased the legislators and police out of the capitol building. When they disrupted the constitutional processes. When they occupied the floor of the congress.

    Now Trump can invoke the insurrection act because his own supporters are making the US look like a banana republic. Well done. Happy now? These are people who are doing their best to support their leader based on what he has been saying for weeks and weeks and weeks. What you have been saying for weeks and weeks and weeks.

    Oh, and by the way, why were some of the rioters carrying Confederate flags? Think about that for a few minutes.

    Rioters were seen marching through the building chanting “We want Trump” and one was photographed in the Senate president’s chair.
    Washington police said it was clear the crowd was intent on using chemical irritants to force entry to the building.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-55555074

    Yup, just like the protesters this summer. The parallels are eerie.

  104. 104
    mike1962 says:

    JVL: Yup, like the woman who was shot today during the rioting. She was going to die someday anyway.

    Who shot her?

    P.S. You will think about your own death in your bed tonight. Hehe. Everything else until your death is a distraction. Hehe.

  105. 105
    JVL says:

    Mike1962: Who shot her?

    Who encouraged her to storm the capitol building?

    You will think about your own death in your bed tonight. Hehe. Everything else until your death is a distraction. Hehe.

    I will be thinking about how sad it is that the best and greatest example of a man-made government has been disrupted by a reality TV star who can’t lose gracefully. The whole world is watching and The Trumpster has, incredibly, lost even more credibility. But now he’s pulling the whole system into his fantasy.

  106. 106
    bornagain77 says:

    (sarcasm on)

    Golly gee whiz JVL, as mad as these people were to do what they did, you would think that the Democrats stole the election or something like that and thus undermined Democracy itself.

    Thankfully, since nothing like that actually happened, and we all know the election was not stolen, then we can just call them insurrectionists who are committing treason

    By the way, the penalty for that is death.

    Are you in favor of firing squads, or death by hanging JVL?

    How many executions of conservatives do you think it will take to get the point across that Democrats can cheat as much as they damn well want and there ain’t a damn thing anyone can do about it?

    (sarcasm off)

  107. 107
    LarTanner says:

    Oh, Mike1962. You are simply PRECIOUS. “Think about death.” “Hehe.” This is pure gold.

    You, my friend, are UD — minus the pseudo-intellectual bloviating of your ‘abortion holocaust’ and ‘Shroud of Turin’ chums.

  108. 108

    Today was a day well worth being alive to see! That was quite thrilling just watching it through the lens of various video cameras on the scene.

  109. 109
    mike1962 says:

    The woman was unarmed and shot by a Capitol police officer.

    Female Lives Matter. Protester Lives Matter.

  110. 110
    mike1962 says:

    JVL: I will be thinking about how sad it is that the best and greatest example of a man-made government has been disrupted by a reality TV star who can’t lose gracefully.

    Naaa, you will be thinking of your own death. Hehe.

  111. 111
    JVL says:

    Bornagain77: Golly gee whiz JVL, as mad as these people were to do what they did, you would think that the Democrats stole the election or something like that and thus undermined Democracy itself.

    I think a lot of people who feel disenfranchised and marginalise have been convinced by a trumped up reality TV star that they actually won and need to bypass due process and take over the reins of power.

    Thankfully, since nothing like that actually happened, and we all know the election was not stolen, then we can just call them insurrectionists who are committing treason

    By the way, the penalty for that is death.

    Hmmm, what do you call capturing the floor of the congress and sitting in the president’s chair?

    Are you in favor of firing squads, or death by hanging JVL?

    Never.

    How many executions of conservatives do you think it will take to get the point across that Democrats can cheat as much as they damn well want and there ain’t a damn thing anyone can do about it?

    There won’t be any executions of conservatives no matter how much you want it to happen to justify your hoped for coup.

  112. 112
    mike1962 says:

    The United State Capitol Police answers to Congress, not the President of the United States, and is the only full-service federal law enforcement agency responsible to the legislative branch of the Federal Government of the United States. –WP

    This police agency, overseen by U.S. Congress, murdered an unarmed innocent protester today.

    Day of shame.

  113. 113
    JVL says:

    William J Murray: Today was a day well worth being alive to see! That was quite thrilling just watching it through the lens of various video cameras on the scene.

    Gosh, I’m surprised you weren’t there to have a more visceral experience. Be part of the excitement. I guess that’s not your style. You’re more of an armchair protestor, safe in your pontificating.

  114. 114
    JVL says:

    Mike1962: The woman was unarmed and shot by a Capitol police officer.

    Why was she invading the capitol building? Who encouraged her to do that?

    Naaa, you will be thinking of your own death. Hehe.

    You seem to have some kind of obsession about this.

    This police agency, overseen by U.S. Congress, murdered an unarmed innocent protester today.

    Why don’t we wait until due process and lawful procedures deal with the issue? Oh, I forgot, you already know what is true and what isn’t. You don’t need no stinking laws to tell you what’s real do you? You got it all figured out. Too bad most people are too stupid to see reality like you do. No matter, they can be disregarded.

  115. 115

    JVL @113,

    As I’ve said repeatedly, this isn’t anything more than a TV show for me. Or did you forget that?

  116. 116
    JVL says:

    I’ve figured it out. You guys think this is a war. You think it’s okay to play dirty and bypass due process and laws because there’s some bigger issue at stake. Your double standard is because your cause is higher and justified. I get it now. Sorry for assuming you were actually objective. Your glee and enjoyment of a very sad day tell me it’s not about the rule of law, it’s about the rule of your agenda.

  117. 117
    bornagain77 says:

    Is JVL talking about BLM and Antifa? 🙂

    Oh wait, they can burn and loot and its OK “because there (really is) some bigger issue at stake.”

    Glad you cleared that up JVL 🙂

    This is what Washington DC looked like this summer, fire in every direction, by what was then dubbed a ‘mostly peaceful protest’ by the Main Stream Media
    https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10119488459178464&set=a.10100289154004934

  118. 118
    JVL says:

    William J Murray: As I’ve said repeatedly, this isn’t anything more than a TV show for me. Or did you forget that?

    Your idea that the situation matters as much as a TV programme is delusional and egotistical. I knew you were not to be taken seriously but I didn’t realise how far your self-centred view point removed you from reality. I guess your voracious support for various methods of taking over the government are akin to ways you would suggest your favourite football team win the Super Bowl.

    You still have the right to vote, if you are a US citizen, but I hope you abrogate that privilege in the future. I do not think you are a person that should be part of the process for determining what’s legal. Because you, actually, don’t really care.

  119. 119
    JVL says:

    Bornagain77: Is JVL talking about BLM and Antifa?

    When did they chase the police out of the capitol building? When did they disrupt the legal process? When did they occupy the floor of congress?

    I know you think what has happened in DC today was justified. But be upfront and defend it directly, don’t try and draw parallels which aren’t true. Just stand up and defend your position. If you can. If you’re man enough.

    Or are you just going to lurk behind your weasily, ‘you guys are worse than us’ personae? Why not take a real stand and tell use what you really think should happen. Seems like the time for it.

  120. 120
    LarTanner says:

    The report now is that the insurrectionists are out of the capitol and the electoral vote tally will resume. New articles of impeachment are being drafted. Trump is clearly not in anyone’s right mind and should not be allowed to remain in office 14 more days.

    The consequences of this day will be long-lasting. Most Trumpers will rejoin WJM in mother’s basement to watch TV, but Trump-enabling congresspeople and staffers will find it hard to gain re-employment. One can only imagine some will try to rehabilitate themselves by saying they were trying to keep Trump’s crazy at bay for the good of the country.

  121. 121
    DiEb says:

    It’s not a coup, it’s just an altercation at a local gym.

    Frankly: to see such scenes at the heart of the world’s most important democracy (republic, whatever), it’s like watching a porn filmed in the Cologne Cathedral.

    Senator Cruz, Toomey: you are just Zauberlehrlinge – and there is no master to come to your rescue.

  122. 122
    bornagain77 says:

    Is DiEb talking about this ‘porn’?

    This is what Washington DC looked like this summer, fire in every direction, by what was then dubbed a ‘mostly peaceful protest’ by the Main Stream Media
    https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10119488459178464&set=a.10100289154004934

  123. 123
    jerry says:

    AOC agrees with capital protests

    The whole point of protesting is to make ppl uncomfortable.

    Activists take that discomfort w/ the status quo & advocate for concrete policy changes. Popular support often starts small & grows.

    To folks who complain protest demands make others uncomfortable… that’s the point.

    She agrees with fair and honest elections which was what this protest was about. But we have a lot of commenters showing up here who apparently don’t support this cause.

  124. 124
    JVL says:

    Jerry: AOC agrees with capital protests

    Do they also agree with disrupting the legal processes? Do they also agree with occupying the floor of congress? Do they also agree with attempting a coup?

    She agrees with fair and honest elections which was what this protest was about.

    And to do so outside of the legal procedures? How is storming the capitol part of that?

    But we have a lot of commenters showing up here who apparently don’t support this cause.

    Why do that outside of the perfectly good procedures laid out in the Constitution and 250 years of legal precedence?

    This isn’t about protesting, it’s about seising the reins of power. About distorting the due process. That’s sedition. That is insurrection. And who promoted that?

  125. 125
    jerry says:

    Great comment with a little paraphrasing that describes the anti ID people who comment here

    Is what ID say untrue?
    Nope.

    Is what ID say inaccurate?
    Nah.

    Does it contradict me?
    Well, yes.

    Then it must be… disinformation!

    It applies to just about everything they say. Hypocrisy is rampant.

    Who here has advocated the assault on the capitol? The answer. No one. They might have predicted it because injustice tends to beget reaction. The bigger the injustice often induces a big reaction.

  126. 126
    JVL says:

    Jerry: Great comment with a little paraphrasing that describes the anti ID people who comment here

    This has NOTHING to do with ID or science. This has to do with attempting to promote and bring about your agenda.

    Why don’t you just take a stand and be clear and state what you’re really interested in? Why obfuscate and duck and dodge, just say your piece honestly and straight?

    It applies to just about everything they say.

    What are you really saying?

  127. 127
    JVL says:

    Republican Senate leader Mitch McConnell is speaking now.

    He says the US Congress has faced down “much greater threats than the unhinged crowd” today.

    “They tried to disrupt our democracy, they failed. They failed.”

    McConnell says the crucial task of formalising the next US president will be completed.

    “We’re gonna finish exactly what we started. We’ll complete the process the right way by the book. We’ll follow our precedents, our laws and our Constitution to the letter.

    “And we will certify the winner of the 2020 presidential election.”

    He adds that the “American people deserve nothing less”.

    “To those who wreaked havoc in our Capitol today, you did not win,” Vice-President Mike Pence says.

    “Violence never wins. Freedom wins and this is still the People’s house. As we reconvene in this chamber, the world will again witness the resilience and strength of our democracy for even in the wake of unprecedented violence and vandalism.

    “The elected representatives of the people of the United States have assembled again.”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/election-us-2020-55558355

    The Trumpster is in the dumpster.

  128. 128
    JVL says:

    More Republicans are weighing in to condemn the attack – and the president’s rhetoric.

    North Carolina Senator Richard Burr placed the blame on Trump.

    “The President bears responsibility for today’s events by promoting the unfounded conspiracy theories that have led to this point.”

    Congresswoman Liz Cheney of Wyoming also said there was “no question that the president formed the mob, the president incited the mob, the president addressed the mob. He lit the flame.”

    Her fellow congresswoman Cathy McMorris Rodgers of Washington State said she has now decided to vote to uphold Joe Biden’s win, calling today’s incidents “unlawful and unacceptable” as she urged Trump “to condemn and put an end to this madness”.

    Colorado’s state Republican leadership also condemned the mob attack, “just as we condemned the actions of protesters at our own Colorado State Capitol this past spring” amid Black Lives Matter demonstrations.

    And the national Republican Party communications director Michael Ahrens wrote on Twitter that the attack amounted to “domestic terrorism”.

    “Our soldiers have died carrying the American flag into battle for our freedom. To see that flag used in the name of unfounded conspiracy theories is a disgrace to the nation, and every decent American should be disgusted by it.”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/election-us-2020-55558355

    Good job Donald, you’re driving your own party away from your fantasy. Excellent.

  129. 129
    JVL says:

    Former President George W Bush has issued a statement on the “scenes of mayhem” unfolding in the US Capitol.

    “It is a sickening and heartbreaking sight,” the Republican wrote.

    “This is how election results are disputed in a banana republic – not our democratic republic.”

    Bush continued, saying that he was “appalled by the reckless behaviour of some political leaders” since the presidential election, but stopped short of calling out President Trump or his supporters by name.

    In his own statement Republican Senator Mitt Romney went a step further, condemning today’s “insurrection, incited by the President of the United States”.

    Those who support Trump, Romney wrote, “will forever be seen as being complicit in an unprecedented attack against our democracy”.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/election-us-2020-55558355

  130. 130
    mike1962 says:

    JVL: You seem to have some kind of obsession about this.

    Let’s compare the number of TDS-based words you write vs anything I write here.

    Hehehe.

  131. 131
    JVL says:

    Mike1962: Let’s compare the number of TDS-based words you write vs anything I write here.

    I had to look up TDS to know what you meant. The fact that you think that’s a thing tells me a lot about you.

    I’m posting a lot of quotes from a lot of US elected officials. Are they all Trump haters then? What are you?

    Anyway, why don’t you just take a stand and tell us all what you really think should happen and why. Or are you just going to snipe and insult? Maybe you’re too cowardly to be honest and straight about your agenda?

  132. 132
    JVL says:

    White House Deputy Press Secretary Sarah Matthews has resigned from her post over the Capitol violence.

    “I was honoured to serve in the Trump administration and proud of the policies we enacted,” she said in a statement.

    “As someone who worked in the halls of Congress, I was deeply disturbed by what I saw today.”

    Matthews said her resignation is effective immediately, adding: “Our nation needs a peaceful transfer of power.”

    Earlier, First Lady Melania Trump’s chief of staff and former Trump press secretary Stephanie Grisham resigned amid the chaos. It was unclear whether the Capitol attack had anything to do with her departure.

    “It has been an honour to serve the country in the White House,” she tweeted. “I am very proud to have been a part of Mrs Trump’s mission to help children everywhere, and proud of the many accomplishments of this administration.”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/election-us-2020-55558355

    Rats fleeing the sinking ship?

  133. 133
    JVL says:

    Republican Kelly Loeffler, who just lost her Georgia Senate race, also condemned the violence – and flipped her decision on ratifying Biden’s win.

    “I cannot now, in good conscience, object to the certification of these electors,” Loeffler said.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/election-us-2020-55558355

    The party’s really over now.

  134. 134
    Steve Alten2 says:

    Twitter and Facebook took unprecedented actions to address the spread of misinformation and the incitement of violence by Donald Trump on their platforms on Wednesday, after supporters of the president stormed the US Capitol.
    Both companies locked Trump’s accounts and removed several posts from the president that cast doubt on the election results and praised his supporters, who forcibly took to the government building as lawmakers attempted to tally votes for the election.”

    How is the Trump cult going to find out what is true if Twitter and FB permanently block Trump?

  135. 135
    bornagain77 says:

    That’s rich, Twitter and Facebook are concerned with spreading misinformation. Between them and the Main Stream News, they wrote the book on spreading misinformation for crying out loud.

    as to “the incitement of violence by Donald Trump ”

    I watched a good chunk of Trump’s speech today. He incited no one to riot. PERIOD! In fact, he said the word ‘peacefully’ a few times when he talked about going to the capital to ‘peacefully’ protest the vote.

    Moreover, Trump is dead on target when he stated that the election was stolen.

    I’ve been through the evidence for a few months now. Listened to perhaps a hundred witnesses testify in hearings, and also listened to many experts testify. As well, I’ve read many analysis and articles. The evidence is simply overwhelming that the Democrats committed voter fraud on a wide scale and stole the election from Trump.

    For instance, this overview,,

    The Navarro Report – Part II
    – The Art of The Steal – January 5, 2020
    https://navarroreport.com/#b7231c7c-dfe7-4f2e-aa3e-637bf9610b2a
    —-

    The Ruby Freeman video by itself will live in infamy as a shining example of how this election was stolen from Trump by the Democrats.

    The Dims have had their chance to address this evidence and all I have seen in rebuttal so far is, basically, just a blanket denial that there is any evidence for voter fraud. i.e. ‘nothing to see here’.

    This, to put it mildly, will not cut it.

    If a very large segment of the American population rightly believes that this election was stolen, and their cries for justice are simply ignored by those in charge of making sure that our elections are secure,, then, for all intents and purposes, Democracy is dead.

    The passions of people who really do love America, and really do love what it stands for, are very much inflamed right now, and much of the chatter happening underground is not good.

    If much will come of it all I do not know, but what I do know is that simply ignoring the problem, as those in charge seem intent on doing right now, is not the way to go about restoring faith in America as a democratic republic.

    In fact, IMHO, simply ignoring this problem, as if these people’s legitimate concerns do not even matter, is a very dangerous course of action for those in charge to take.

  136. 136
    Steve Alten2 says:

    The senate rejected the Arizona objection by a huge margin. This is going to be a long night, but the outcome is obvious.

  137. 137

    JVL said:

    Your idea that the situation matters as much as a TV programme is delusional and egotistical. I knew you were not to be taken seriously but I didn’t realise how far your self-centred view point removed you from reality.

    I’d have to agree that I’m pretty far removed from what most people consider to be “reality.” Of course, anything could be a delusion. If it is one, I’m really enjoying it.

    As far as being self-centered, I’d have to include my wife in that. I’m centered around us. Is there someone or something else I should center my thoughts and actions around?

    I guess your voracious support for various methods of taking over the government are akin to ways you would suggest your favourite football team win the Super Bowl.

    I wouldn’t call it “voracious.” There are other things that interest me far more, and take up more of my time and energy, than the political TV show I watch and participate in occasionally here and there.

  138. 138
    Steve Alten2 says:

    The house has now rejected the Arizona objection.

  139. 139

    LarTanner said:

    The consequences of this day will be long-lasting. Most Trumpers will rejoin WJM in mother’s basement to watch TV,

    Just firing off scattershot now?

    Did you watch what happened today? What was that, like 200,000 people that showed up? You think those people are just going to slink off into the basement and shut up?

  140. 140
    Viola Lee says:

    I don’t think there was anything like 200,000 people there, based on watching video. I haven’t seena crowd count.

  141. 141

    Viola Lee:
    Yes, that was the important part of my comment. The specific number of Trump supporters that were there.

  142. 142
    bornagain77 says:

    Looked like a ‘sea of people’ to me.

    https://cdn.abcotvs.com/dip/images/9408458_010621-cc-ap-trump-protest-new-img.jpg?w=800&r=16%3A9

    Tucker Carlson had a guest on his show who referred to ‘hundreds of thousands’ of people in Washington today.

  143. 143
    vividbleau says:

    Gotta love the selective outrage. To quote Chris Cuomo “Who said that protests should be peaceful “?

    I will be consistent those that stormed the Capitol should be arrested and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I want to know who they are. However we had a summer of violence, businesses and cities burning and crickets from the Dems .” Virtually every well known conservative condemns these actions while Biden and Harris were posting bail money. And Chris Cuomo opines “Who said protests should be peaceful?” All of a sudden everyone is outraged.
    We had a 14 year military woman veteran shot and killed. How many protesters were shot and killed by the police last summer? You know the people throwing Molotov Cocktails at Federal, buildings and the police.
    As to all the handwringing about disrupting the electoral process I am watching Congress doing that as I write this. Spare me

    Vivid

  144. 144
    Viola Lee says:

    Re 142. That picture is of a crowd that is more sizable than any I’ve seen, so maybe there are 200,000 there.

  145. 145
    Steve Alten2 says:

    Vividbleau “ How many protesters were shot and killed by the police last summer?”

    There were approximately 1,000 people shot and killed by police in 2020. I don’t know how many were during the summer.

  146. 146
    Steve Alten2 says:

    Senate rejects Pennsylvania objection. Joint session rejected objections from Michigan, Georgia and Nevada. Arizona’s objection was previously rejected. So, unless Pence does something unconstitutionally, Biden will become President.

  147. 147
    AndyClue says:

    Was it a false flag operation?!

    Facial recognition firm claims antifa infiltrated Trump protesters who stormed Capitol

    Trump supporters say that antifa members disguised as one of them infiltrated the protesters who stormed the U.S. Capitol on Wednesday.

    A retired military officer told The Washington Times that the firm XRVision used its software to do facial recognition of protesters and matched two Philadelphia antifa members to two men inside the Senate.

    The source provided the photo match to The Times.

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/jan/6/xrvision-firm-claims-antifa-infiltrated-protesters/

  148. 148
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: The Trump speech censored by Twitter . . .by itself, such censorship is a sign of what is wrong. Text:

    I know your pain, I know your hurt. We had an election that was stolen from us. It was a landslide election, and everyone knows it, especially the other side. But you have to go home now. We have to have peace. We have to have law and order, we have to respect our great people in law and order. We don’t want anybody hurt. It’s been a very tough period of time, there’s never been a time like this, where such a thing happened, where they could take it all away from us. From me, from you, from our country. This was a fraudulent election, but we can’t play into the hands of these people. We have to have peace. So go home. We love you, you’re very special. You’ve seen what happens, you see the way others are treated, that are so bad and so evil. I know how you feel. But go home, and go home in peace.

    This is consistent with BA77’s observation that Mr Trump called for peaceful protest. I think a prayer vigil would have made a significant difference because of tone set but I doubt Mr Trump would be likely to go there.

    Now, it is manifest that advantage would be taken of any incidence of disorder and that we are at a Reichstag fire stage. For those who don’t know, the fire was set by a half-crazed Dutch youth as a protest. Advantage was taken to accuse the Communists and to set up a show trial. The legislature was stampeded into passing an enabling act giving Hitler dictatorial power for seven years due to the emergency. Thereafter of course renewal was a foregone conclusion.

    The US is clearly moving to option b, and it seems that the willful blindness concerning corrupt media, deep state politics, undermining of the integrity of elections and more will intensify the long brewing and simmering 4th generation civil war that has been in progress since 2017. How easily it is conveniently forgotten that there were riots in the streets of Washington DC on Mr Trump’s inauguration day, or that only a few months ago, the white house was under semi-siege with the church across the road being subjected to arson.

    We need to re-read 1984, or at least watch the movie.

    As for the commentary above, I suppose some would do well to apply the mirror principle to themselves i/l/o cognitive dissonance considerations, where projections to others, especially those we despise are too often instead a window into the sad state of our own hearts and minds. Confession by projection and accusation rather than sober minded examination on merits is revealing. It is particularly manifest that as predicted, the objectors again ducked addressing evidence but instead echoed the narrative. I again challenge such to substantially speak to, for starters: https://hereistheevidence.com/

    I further predict that by and large, such substantial engagement is the last thing we will see.

    Prove me wrong, please: ________ Please.

    KF

  149. 149
    kairosfocus says:

    AC, in a stressful situation, a few provocateurs can indeed transform protest into riot, that is true. Opening a gap in a barrier, breaking a window or tossing a grapefruit can be enough. The first point is, that in a reasonably lawful state, riot is never justified. Sadly, it seems that the unarmed — as far as I could see — woman shot in her neck [apparently by Capitol Police?] died; she was a 14 year US Air Force veteran. Sad. I would like to hear an explanation for that. Tear gas is one thing, musketry another. I see suggestions of other deaths and of bombs being discovered, those need to be clarified. KF

  150. 150
    kairosfocus says:

    PS: I again warn on the lesson in Plato’s parable of the ship of state:

    It is not too hard to figure out that our civilisation is in deep trouble and is most likely headed for shipwreck. (And of course, that sort of concern is dismissed as “apocalyptic,” or neurotic pessimism that refuses to pause and smell the roses.)

    Plato’s Socrates spoke to this sort of situation, long since, in the ship of state parable in The Republic, Bk VI:

    >>[Soc.] I perceive, I said, that you are vastly amused at having plunged me into such a hopeless discussion; but now hear the parable, and then you will be still more amused at the meagreness of my imagination: for the manner in which the best men are treated in their own States is so grievous that no single thing on earth is comparable to it; and therefore, if I am to plead their cause, I must have recourse to fiction, and put together a figure made up of many things, like the fabulous unions of goats and stags which are found in pictures.

    Imagine then a fleet or a ship in which there is a captain [–> often interpreted, ship’s owner] who is taller and stronger than any of the crew, but he is a little deaf and has a similar infirmity in sight, and his knowledge of navigation is not much better. [= The people own the community and in the mass are overwhelmingly strong, but are ill equipped on the whole to guide, guard and lead it]

    The sailors are quarrelling with one another about the steering – every one is of opinion that he has a right to steer [= selfish ambition to rule and dominate], though he has never learned the art of navigation and cannot tell who taught him or when he learned, and will further assert that it cannot be taught, and they are ready to cut in pieces any one who says the contrary. They throng about the captain, begging and praying him to commit the helm to them [–> kubernetes, steersman, from which both cybernetics and government come in English]; and if at any time they do not prevail, but others are preferred to them, they kill the others or throw them overboard [ = ruthless contest for domination of the community], and having first chained up the noble captain’s senses with drink or some narcotic drug [ = manipulation and befuddlement, cf. the parable of the cave], they mutiny and take possession of the ship and make free with the stores; thus, eating and drinking, they proceed on their voyage in such a manner as might be expected of them [–> Cf here Luke’s subtle case study in Ac 27].

    Him who is their partisan and cleverly aids them in their plot for getting the ship out of the captain’s hands into their own whether by force or persuasion [–> Nihilistic will to power on the premise of might and manipulation making ‘right’ ‘truth’ ‘justice’ ‘rights’ etc], they compliment with the name of sailor, pilot, able seaman, and abuse the other sort of man, whom they call a good-for-nothing; but that the true pilot must pay attention to the year and seasons and sky and stars and winds, and whatever else belongs to his art, if he intends to be really qualified for the command of a ship, and that he must and will be the steerer, whether other people like or not-the possibility of this union of authority with the steerer’s art has never seriously entered into their thoughts or been made part of their calling.

    Now in vessels which are in a state of mutiny and by sailors who are mutineers, how will the true pilot be regarded? Will he not be called by them a prater, a star-gazer, a good-for-nothing?

    [Ad.] Of course, said Adeimantus.

    [Soc.] Then you will hardly need, I said, to hear the interpretation of the figure, which describes the true philosopher in his relation to the State [ –> here we see Plato’s philosoppher-king emerging]; for you understand already.

    [Ad.] Certainly.

    [Soc.] Then suppose you now take this parable to the gentleman who is surprised at finding that philosophers have no honour in their cities; explain it to him and try to convince him that their having honour would be far more extraordinary.

    [Ad.] I will.

    [Soc.] Say to him, that, in deeming the best votaries of philosophy to be useless to the rest of the world, he is right; but also tell him to attribute their uselessness to the fault of those who will not use them, and not to themselves. The pilot should not humbly beg the sailors to be commanded by him –that is not the order of nature; neither are ‘the wise to go to the doors of the rich’ –the ingenious author of this saying told a lie –but the truth is, that, when a man is ill, whether he be rich or poor, to the physician he must go, and he who wants to be governed, to him who is able to govern. [–> the issue of competence and character as qualifications to rule] The ruler who is good for anything ought not to beg his subjects to be ruled by him [ –> down this road lies the modern solution: a sound, well informed people will seek sound leaders, who will not need to manipulate or bribe or worse, and such a ruler will in turn be checked by the soundness of the people, cf. US DoI, 1776]; although the present governors of mankind are of a different stamp; they may be justly compared to the mutinous sailors, and the true helmsmen to those who are called by them good-for-nothings and star-gazers.

    [Ad.] Precisely so, he said.

    [Soc] For these reasons, and among men like these, philosophy, the noblest pursuit of all, is not likely to be much esteemed by those of the opposite faction [–> the sophists, the Demagogues, Alcibiades and co, etc]; not that the greatest and most lasting injury is done to her by her opponents, but by her own professing followers, the same of whom you suppose the accuser to say, that the greater number of them are arrant rogues, and the best are useless; in which opinion I agreed [–> even among the students of the sound state (here, political philosophy and likely history etc.), many are of unsound motivation and intent, so mere education is not enough, character transformation is critical].

    [Ad.] Yes.

    [Soc.] And the reason why the good are useless has now been explained?

    [Ad.] True.

    [Soc.] Then shall we proceed to show that the corruption of the majority is also unavoidable [–> implies a need for a corruption-restraining minority providing proverbial salt and light, cf. Ac 27, as well as justifying a governing structure turning on separation of powers, checks and balances], and that this is not to be laid to the charge of philosophy any more than the other?

    [Ad.] By all means.

    [Soc.] And let us ask and answer in turn, first going back to the description of the gentle and noble nature.[ — > note the character issue] Truth, as you will remember, was his leader, whom he followed always and in all things [ –> The spirit of truth as a marker]; failing in this, he was an impostor, and had no part or lot in true philosophy [–> the spirit of truth is a marker, for good or ill] . . . >>

    (There is more than an echo of this in Acts 27, a real world case study. [Luke, a physician, was an educated Greek with a taste for subtle references.] This blog post, on soundness in policy, will also help)

  151. 151
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: U/D2 to OP, Tucker Carlson’s warning. KF

  152. 152

    Let me ask Viola Lee, JVL and others here who generally take the anti-Trump side:

    Let’s assume that right now there are tens of millions of armed people, as reported by the polls, that 100% believe the election was rigged and that if they let this stand, rigged elections will basically turn this into a communist state, they will pack the court with activist judges, and make other changes to ensure they stay in power?

    (1) What would you like those tens of millions to do? What would you do in their shoes?

    (2) Given the premise above, what would be the best course of action forward by the government?

  153. 153
    Bob O'H says:

    kf @ 148 –
    Trump’s statement has 161 words. 81 are about how he though the election was stolen:

    I know your pain, I know your hurt. We had an election that was stolen from us. It was a landslide election, and everyone knows it, especially the other side.

    It’s been a very tough period of time, there’s never been a time like this, where such a thing happened, where they could take it all away from us. From me, from you, from our country. This was a fraudulent election, but we can’t play into the hands of these people.

    51 words are about how his supporters should be peaceful and go home.

    But you have to go home now. We have to have peace. We have to have law and order, we have to respect our great people in law and order. We don’t want anybody hurt.

    We have to have peace. So go home. But go home, and go home in peace.

    The remaining 24 words are showing his support and appreciation for his supporters:

    We love you, you’re very special. You’ve seen what happens, you see the way others are treated, that are so bad and so evil.

    There are zero words condemning violence, or trying to distance him (and his peaceful supporters) from those who – quite literally – stormed the seat of government. I would have thought a law and order president would have wanted to dis-associate himself from these actions, but at no point in his comments does he do that.

  154. 154
    JVL says:

    William J Murray: Let me ask Viola Lee, JVL and others here who generally take the anti-Trump side:

    I’m not going to be part of your fantasies any more. Go back to ESPN.

  155. 155
    JVL says:

    Matt Pottinger, deputy national security advisor, is the latest Trump official to reportedly resign.

    Bloomberg News, citing sources close to Pottinger, said he was “dismayed by the attack on the Capitol and Trump’s incitement of protesters”, while sources told CNN Pottinger had said “there was very little for him to consider”.

    It follows after earlier reports that numerous other White House staff members also resigned following the chaos of the day.

    Among those who stepped down earlier are Deputy Press Secretary Sarah Matthews, the chief of staff of First Lady Melania Trump, Stephanie Grisham, and White House social secretary Rickie Niceta.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/election-us-2020-55558355

  156. 156

    JVL said:

    I’m not going to be part of your fantasies any more. Go back to ESPN.

    Do you think it’s my fantasy that tens of millions of people believe what I said? Really?

  157. 157

    Bob O’H at 153:

    Well, we could go all conspiracy theory here. Before invoking his powers under the Insurrection Act, Trump is required to publish an order for the insurgents to disperse.

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/254

    Also, you might ask yourself how it is that a couple of dozen people that didn’t even have guns, apparently, broke into the most secure and well-protected building in the free world short of the White House.

    Just sayin’.

  158. 158
    kairosfocus says:

    WJM,

    In my judgement, the commenters named and others are unlikely to directly respond. Let me start the ball rolling:

    >>Let’s assume that right now there are tens of millions of armed people,>>

    – well north of 100 millions, more like, with 400+ million guns and trillions of rounds; were they fundamentally lawless or the “fascists” of the colour/culture revolution agit prop narrative — news, they are no more, legitimate political/policy voices they are no more — the US would long since have collapsed into Balkan civil war conditions.

    – this is baseline

    >> as reported by the polls, that 100% believe the election was rigged>>

    – about 1/2 the public, and on a considerable body of evidence that the narrative is trying to suppress, dismiss and censor

    — I note, utter unresponsiveness on the kinematic artifact scans that would be clearly powerful one way or the other. This has now become the act of guilty mind so we know to moral certainty that industrial scale fraud occurred using effectively uncontrolled mail-in ballots, 3rd party ballot harvesting, frustration of scrutineering [see from Jan 5, where it is happening again] and other means, including that the gadgetry is suspect.

    >> and that if they let this stand, rigged elections will basically turn this into a communist state,>>

    – the colour-culture revolutionists are operating on marxist critical theories and significant jacobins have openly announced their misanthropy.

    >> they will pack the court with activist judges,>>

    – declared intent, 12 – 15 judges

    >>and make other changes to ensure they stay in power?>>

    – the fatal error, posing an existential threat to an unconquered Western people, thus to life . . . as was so sadly demonstrated yesterday.

    – those who imagine that narrative, cooptation of government, manipulation of elections etc will stop the rising up of a justly concerned and threatened people to challenge the would be lawless oligarchs are fatally mistaken

    – the peaceful consent of the governed is beginning to be withdrawn, something no sane person wishes for, if it reaches fatal disaffection the consequences are too grim to enumerate, across the world. I don’t think it will reach there but across this year the radicals, deep staters, corrupt officials, election fraudsters and their agit prop narrative publicists will first face utter discredit then they will find that they have lost the cooperation of those they sought to domineer over.

    – a likely first sign will be non cooperation on the pandemic actions, orders and the like. They will not be able to arrest a nation.

    – similarly, media numbers will collapse further. journalists care going to find themselves the targets of public contempt as paid liars.

    – they will find that the people ignore the officials and turn to popular representatives and emerging voices

    – social media gatekeepers will find themselves in the position of the guardians of increasingly empty temples

    – political boycotts will rise sharply, go woke go broke

    – Mr Biden and Ms Harris, if sworn in, will find themselves as having no legitimacy

    – Ms Pelosi and Mr Schumer will find that the real business of discussing public policy will go elsewhere, and that their decrees wiil only have effect through threat or use of force, further discrediting them.

    – the numbers convinced the elections are fraudulent will sharply rise, with incalculable consequences

    – and more

    >>(1) What would you like those tens of millions to do?>>

    – stand peacefully and lawfully, participating in civilisational renewal and reformation from inescapable first duties of reason on up

    – this leads to a restoration of sound understanding of law and government, pivoting on the centrality of justice, due balance of rights, freedoms, responsibilities

    – stand one’s ground if attacked

    >>What would you do in their shoes?>>

    – as described

    >>(2) Given the premise above, what would be the best course of action forward by the government?>>

    – option a, use the Constitutional backstops, undertake sound investigations and reforms, genuinely recognise the legitimate concerns

    – regrettably, we are increasingly seeing b instead, a far more painful route for the year of strategic decision ahead

    KF

  159. 159
    kairosfocus says:

    BO’H, again, you fail the direct implication test. As to the underlying issue, the acts of guilty mind have long since moved industrial scale election fraud into moral certainty, what empirical evidence warrants to. The underlying danger is that an undefeated Western people have been presented with an existential threat to liberty thus life; that is how pivotal election integrity is. KF

  160. 160
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, as predicted, you clearly are unable to address the substantial issues substantially. KF

  161. 161
    JVL says:

    William J Murray: Do you think it’s my fantasy that tens of millions of people believe what I said? Really?

    Clearly some do. But I’m not playing your fantasy games about it anymore. None of it really matters to you so what’s the point?

  162. 162
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, side-stepping pivotal issues on any handy rhetorical excuse speaks volumes on the actual balance on merits. You do not have it or you would trumpet it. I add, BTW, the surveys show that effectively half the population believe fraud was material to the outcome of the election despite the agit prop narrative paid liars phalanx. And I do not use such a description lightly, for cause, I hold a big slice the major media fifth columnists against our civilisation. KF

    PS: Observe my answer above. Surely, you can match it. (And note, I have crossed intellectual swords with WJM on his worldview, but I have long since deeply respected the weight of his mind.)

  163. 163

    KF said:

    stand peacefully and lawfully, participating in civilisational renewal and reformation from inescapable first duties of reason on up

    This is not an option when the law and justice system are corrupt.

    As Jefferson noted, there come times when those in power must be reminded by force that they serve at the will of the people. If this is not such a time, what is? If Trump is to act in the 11th hour with military force, he should do so in response to the people giving him the moral authority to go to such an extreme. IMO, they just did so, by showing up in force.

    I’m not really sure what that was at the capital. The actual break-in appeared to be a set up. There are videos that indicate this, but I don’t know who set it up. Some of those people have been identified. It’s not like 200,000 people stormed the building. There doesn’t appear to be anything set on fire or widespread destruction of property in the building. It’s not like they were rounding up the capitol police and beating them up.

    This looks to be an orchestrated event beginning with Trump asking people to come on Jan. 6 and telling them it was going to be “wild,” so it looks like some kind of orchestrated moves and counter moves, Trump vs Deep State.

    What occurs today may illuminate more about what is going on. The back-channel theory is that Trump played this out to give everyone a chance to do the right thing and to let them commit the crime of knowingly voting to certifying a fraudulent election, and allowed the break-in to occur to be able to issue the proclamation to disperse. We’ll see.

  164. 164

    JVL asks:

    Clearly some do. But I’m not playing your fantasy games about it anymore. None of it really matters to you so what’s the point?

    Well, the point for me is to exchange ideas, debate and argue in a civil manner about topics I enjoy. It’s not like I do this to convince anyone of anything – that’s incredibly rare, although it’s something I enjoy when someone changes my mind about something.

    What’s the point for you? Why are you contributing to the discussion? Do you think what we say here is important and will matter in some significant way? Do you think you’re going to change someone’s mind?

  165. 165
    JVL says:

    As the violent mob incited by President Donald Trump stormed the U.S. Capitol on Wednesday, some West Wing staffers panicked that they were possibly becoming participants in a coup to overthrow the government. “What do I do? Resign?” one nervous White House staffer asked a friend on Wednesday afternoon, shortly after news broke that a woman had been shot and killed inside the Capitol. The West Wing staffer told the friend that White House Counsel Pat Cipollone was urging White House officials not to speak to Trump or enable his coup attempt in any way, so they could reduce the chance they could be prosecuted for treason under the Sedition Act. “They’re being told to stay away from Trump,” the friend said. The White House declined to comment.

    “Everyone is blaming Trump for Georgia,” the Republican strategist said. “When Trump took office, we had the White House and both branches of Congress. Now we have nothing. He inherited a Lamborghini and treated it like a lawn mower.”

    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/01/after-a-day-of-violence-and-25th-amendment-chatter-trumps-allies-jumping-ship

  166. 166
    kairosfocus says:

    WJM, a lawful stance is one on natural law principles that justice is the pivot of law. Peace is the civil peace of justice, not the silence of the utterly oppressed. As I outlined, there are many ways and means to make the point clear to the would be oligarchs without fetching the bullet box. The theology of dual covenant identifies nationhood under God and Government under God with legitimacy rooted in consent of the governed. Where Government oversteps its duty of justice as God’s servants, first, responsible voices then interposition by established magistrates. Then, if such fail popular representatives and orderly petition and remonstrance. If such is dismissed, and backed by acts of tyranny, then there is just protest and in the end the right of orderly revolution; the general election was created as a means of orderly, peaceful audit, replacement, reform and indeed revolution, but now that is manifestly subverted — utter folly. In the US last resort revolution would likely be by secession, TX being the most likely lead state; calling up a new provisional congress of states would be a major warning. The launching of an attack would justify defensive war, cf. 1775 – 76; before that, police agencies acting as tyranny enforcers forfeit their status as peace officers. But long before that, withdrawal of cooperation, enabling and support by voting with one’s feet and choosing different associations should be enough. Disorderly riot is not justified. KF

  167. 167
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: I add, BTW, the surveys show that effectively half the population believe fraud was material to the outcome of the election despite the agit prop narrative paid liars phalanx. And I do not use such a description lightly, for cause, I hold a big slice the major media fifth columnists against our civilisation.

    Gee, are you making an argument based on what a lot of people think?

    The truth is the people claiming fraud were unable to establish their claims legally. They had plenty of chances and they blew it, big time. Many of the judges rendering decisions were Trump appointees. There was no conspiracy theory amongst the courts, the cases had no merit, some in many ways. You, of course, will stick with your conspiracy theory because you have to. For you to back down now would make you look like a complete fool which you cannot afford to do. Because then you’d be made fun of for everything you say from now on. Who would believe such a fool about anything he says? I wouldn’t worry about that if I were you; there’s a lot of people who already feel that way. Personally I think, while you and I disagree about some of our axioms, we both are interested in what’s real and true. So, I discuss things with you.

    But how do you explain how more and more Republicans are fleeing the Trump train before it hits the barrier? Is that the act of people with true conviction? Do you think they are just bowing to the pressure so they don’t get ‘cancelled’? Is it possible they are seeing through the fantasies?

    Even with your general support of the Stop the Steal movement surely you cannot endorse the two pipe bombs that were left at the Democrat and Republican Committee Offices. Or the gentleman photographed carrying a Confederate flag through the US capitol building. These are beyond the pale . . . aren’t they?

  168. 168

    JVL:

    Also, what part of what I’m asking is “fantasy?” Is the idea that there may be 20 million armed citizens who firmly believe the election was stolen a fantasy? It seems like a reasonable extrapolation given the polls about that very thing. It also seems reasonable to me that they believe the fraud was perpetrated by people seeking to turn this into a socialist country and doing whatever it takes to ensure their continued hold on power. Is that a fantasy on my part? Do 200,000 people show up to a rally for that very reason in the middle of the week unless there are about 10x more people in the country who couldn’t, or wouldn’t, make the trip for various reasons?

    It seems to me like I’m asking a very reasonable question. What does it matter whether or not I take this all seriously or not? I’m just the guy giving you the opportunity to express your opinion on what you apparently consider a very important matter.

    Let me give you the opportunity again:

    (1) What would you like those tens of millions to do? What would you do in their shoes?

    (2) Given the premise above, what would be the best course of action forward by the government?

  169. 169
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, paid liars have no credibility. The projection of coup accusation to the despised other shows instead the cognitive dissonance of knowing the consequences of an election dominated by fraud, which puts them in the indefensible position of enabling fraud that triggers existential crisis. The answer was to have never gone to uncontrolled mail-in ballots, 3rd party ballot harvesting and the frustration of scrutineering, but that Rubicon, that Delaware was crossed. Now, Constitutional backstops are subverted. The simmering 4th gen civil war is about to break out into a full boil, and it is clear who threw the first flurry of punches. The geostrategic consequences will be awful but can be recovered though at terrible cost, the strategic centre of gravity is to hold the leading maritime power for sound civilisation. What a needless catastrophe! KF

  170. 170

    JVL said:

    The truth is the people claiming fraud were unable to establish their claims legally.

    Let’s say that’s the truth. What difference do you think that makes to the, let’s say, 20 million people who still believe the election was stolen?

    But how do you explain how more and more Republicans are fleeing the Trump train before it hits the barrier?

    What difference does it make if scores or hundreds flee the Trump train when the going gets tough, if there are 20 million armed citizens out there who believe in him and what he says?

    Even with your general support of the Stop the Steal movement surely you cannot endorse the two pipe bombs that were left at the Democrat and Republican Committee Offices. Or the gentleman photographed carrying a Confederate flag through the US capitol building. These are beyond the pale . . . aren’t they?

    What difference do the actions of a few as-yet unidentified people with as-yet undetermined motives make? Are we painting all of them with the brush of the actions of a few unknowns? Is that how we treated the BLM/Antifa protests when relatively small number of people (agitators) decided to use the cover of those protests to destroy buildings, burn cars, hurt people and cause mayhem?

    Is that the act of people with true conviction? Do you think they are just bowing to the pressure so they don’t get ‘cancelled’? Is it possible they are seeing through the fantasies?

    200,000 people showing up for a “stop the steal” march on Jan 6, in the cold in DC, coming from all over the country, is evidence to the contrary. Of course some people are going to jump ship when things get tough. That’s to be expected. Did you expect otherwise?

  171. 171

    JVL:

    You may not know this, but the only thing keeping a very significant portion of those 20 million armed Trump supporters from going into full revolution mode is … the very conspiracy theory that the media claims is “radicalizing” these people into violence.

    Were you aware of that?

  172. 172
    Bob O'H says:

    WJM @ 157 –

    Well, we could go all conspiracy theory here. Before invoking his powers under the Insurrection Act, Trump is required to publish an order for the insurgents to disperse.

    True, although if that’s what he was going, you’d still expect him to condemn the violence.

    Also, you might ask yourself how it is that a couple of dozen people that didn’t even have guns, apparently, broke into the most secure and well-protected building in the free world short of the White House.

    I guess they had help from some more people. 🙂

    It certainly sounds like the police were under-prepared, and some may have helped them. I expect there will be an inquiry – if nothing else this was an operational failure.

    BTW, I suspect there are many more secure places in the US – the Pentagon, Fort Knox etc. One problem for Congress, as with other legislatures, is that it has to be both secure and accessible. Yesterday it was a bit too accessible.

  173. 173
    Bob O'H says:

    kf @ 159 – again, I have no idea what you are trying to communicate.

  174. 174
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL,

    that you imagine you can get away with out of context snipping and twisting what I have argued into an appeal to public opinion says all we need to know about your intellectual honesty, rather its absence. Sad.

    I need not give details again, I simply point to long seen public facts showing undermining of election integrity for literally decades. This has been accelerated by sending out an army of lawyers and activists to inject destabilising uncontrollable mail in ballots, 3rd party vote harvesting and frustration of scrutineering. Further frustration of reasonable tests, playing games with even signature verification and a further in your face exercise on the 5th as shown in the OP show actions of guilty mind. Election fraud of material scope is established, punto final.

    The reality onward is needless destruction and chaos, but then that is precisely what Plato warned against 2400 years ago.

    KF

  175. 175
    kairosfocus says:

    BO’H, I am confident that the substance is clear, you have twisted an appeal to law and order in the face of not merely provocation but existential threat to liberty thus life, into perceived enabling of violence. Shame on you. KF

  176. 176

    According to the conspiracy theory. what comes now is declassification and arrests. So exciting! I hope I’m not disappointed. It would be the most amazing “third act” in the history of the country. Perhaps the world.

  177. 177

    Bob O’H said:

    True, although if that’s what he was going, you’d still expect him to condemn the violence.

    I wouldn’t, and I didn’t. Sometimes, violence is necessary. That’s just a fact of life.

    I agree with your assessment of there being more protected buildings and facilities, but I think we both agree that the Capitol was suspiciously vulnerable during a time when it should have been hardened. Like I said, it looks like a set-up; the only question is by whom, and for what reason? It could have two or more competing interests playing out separate strategies.

    If the conspiracy theory is true, the way it played out went in Trump’s favor. This is indicated, IMO, by the way he didn’t respond immediately and let it play out a while, and by the way the military apparently rejected the call for National Guard intervention – and by the way Trump worded his video message, and by the way Twitter censored what was a call for peace and for the people to go home. Move, counter move, further counter-moves.

  178. 178
    jerry says:

    A comment last night by Tucker Carlson

    We got to this sad, chaotic day for a reason. It is not your fault. It is their fault

    https://mobile.twitter.com/TVNewsHQ/status/1346993064284327936

    Is the “their” the people inside the capitol building. We’re they sanctioning the installment of a false government?

  179. 179
    kairosfocus says:

    Jerry watch the vid, it’s in the OP. KF

  180. 180

    Does anyone else want to address the problem of how the government should move forward to address potentially 20 million armed and very angry citizens who believe the election was fraudulent?

  181. 181
    jerry says:

    Trump prepares for turnover

    BREAKING: President Trump, through his top advisor Dan Scavino, releases a statement committing to a peaceful transition of power for the first time.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/alexsalvinews/status/1347107104302092288

    Trump is not tweeting, he is parlering. Interesting that one of the main persons responsible for this debacle, Mark Zuckerberg, is now censoring the President.

    Jerry watch the vid, it’s in the OP. KF

    Sorry for the duplication.

  182. 182
    Bob O'H says:

    If the conspiracy theory is true, the way it played out went in Trump’s favor.

    I think thus far he’s come out of this much worse politically – even his VP has condemned what happened. He apparently hasn’t tried ti use the insurrection act, so I can’t see what’s gone in his favour.

  183. 183
    bornagain77 says:

    Sven Mil states his moral outrage to the occupation of the Capital at 85 this way,,

    Look at all those god-fearing Trumpers go!
    I’m sure they’re all very well-educated and not ignorant at all.

    That’s your base guys!
    Congrats!

    LarTanner joins him at 86

    Yep. All the fellow travelers are fully revealed for who and what they are.

    Likewise, Steve Alten2 at 94, DiEb at 121, and JVL, with numerous comments throughout the thread from 86 onwards, also go on to express their moral outrage at the occupation of the Capital.

    But as Vividbleau pointed out at 143, their moral outrage is very selective.

    Gotta love the selective outrage. To quote Chris Cuomo “Who said that protests should be peaceful“?

    Indeed, we have just been through a ‘summer of love’ in which many of our cities were engulfed in riots. Widespread looting was the norm. Washington DC itself was engulfed in flames. And yet, not a peep of moral outrage from those on the left. Biden, after a few months of being asked to condemn the violence, offered only one measly worded condemnation of the widespread violence. Kamala Harris herself, likewise arranged for millions of dollars to be donated so as to bail those out of jail who had perpetrated this violence.

    And yet, now, all of the sudden, the Dims find their morality?

    As Vivid pointed out, the duplicitous nature of their moral outrage is enough to turn your stomach.

    But it should not be surprising that progressives in general, and the atheists here on UD in particular, are being very selective in their moral outrage.

    For atheists who have forsaken God, morality itself is simply an illusion that is completely subjective to ones own personal preferences, and morality is not objectively real and binding to all people.

    And if we were to ask the atheists here on UD exactly why people should not resort to violence to correct an injustice, there is simply nothing within their Darwinian worldview that they can offer as a valid reason why any person should not resort to violence.

    As Charles Darwin himself stated, “let the strongest live and the weakest die.”

    “One general law, leading to the advancement of all organic beings, namely, multiply, vary, let the strongest live and the weakest die.”
    – Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species

    Adolf Hilter himself echoed Charles Darwin’s words when he stated, “Nature,,, wipes out what is weak in order to give place to the strong.”

    “A stronger race will oust that which has grown weak; for the vital urge, in its ultimate form, will burst asunder all the absurd chains of this so-called humane consideration for the individual and will replace it with the humanity of Nature, which wipes out what is weak in order to give place to the strong.”
    – Adolf Hitler – Mein Kampf – pg 248

    As should be obvious to anyone who is not a complete psychopath, not only is “let the strongest live and the weakest die” amoral, but it is completely ANTI-moral.

    Atheists simply have no basis for morality. And if we followed the moral precepts of their Darwinian worldview, we would very much be living in a world where ‘anti-morality’ was the norm.

    Don’t believe me? The ‘social experiment’ of secular humanism, i.e. Darwinian morality, has been run, and the results of that ‘experiment’ are nothing less than absolutely horrific,

    Atheism’s Body Count *
    It is obvious that Atheism cannot be true; for if it were, it would produce a more humane world, since it values only this life and is not swayed by the foolish beliefs of primitive superstitions and religions. However, the opposite proves to be true. Rather than providing the utopia of idealism, it has produced a body count second to none. With recent documents uncovered for the Maoist and Stalinist regimes, it now seems the high end of estimates of 250 million dead (between 1900-1987) are closer to the mark. The Stalinist Purges produced 61 million dead and Mao’s Cultural Revolution produced 70 million casualties. These murders are all upon their own people! This number does not include the countless dead in their wars of outward aggression waged in the name of the purity of atheism’s world view. China invades its peaceful, but religious neighbor, Tibet; supports N. Korea in its war against its southern neighbor and in its merciless oppression of its own people; and Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge kill up to 6 million with Chinese support. All of these actions done “in the name of the people” to create a better world.
    Atheism’s Tendency Towards Totalitarianism Rather Than Freedom
    What is so strange and odd that in spite of their outward rejection of religion and all its superstitions, they feel compelled to set up cults of personality and worship of the State and its leaders that is so totalitarian that the leaders are not satisfied with mere outward obedience; rather they insist on total mind control and control of thoughts, ideas and beliefs. They institute Gulags and “re-education” centers to indoctrinate anyone who even would dare question any action or declaration of the “Dear Leader.” Even the Spanish Inquisition cannot compare to the ruthlessness and methodical efficiency of these programs conducted on so massive a scale. While proclaiming freedom to the masses, they institute the most methodical efforts to completely eliminate freedom from the people, and they do so all “on behalf” of the proletariat. A completely ordered and totally unfree totalitarian State is routinely set up in place of religion, because it is obviously so profoundly better society. It is also strange that Stalin was a seminarian who rejected Christianity and went on to set up himself as an object of worship. It seems that impulse to religious devotion is present in all, whether that be in traditional forms or secular inventions.
    And while it is often said that Hitler was a Christian, the Nuremberg documents clearly reveal the heart of this ruthless man who believed in social Darwinism and had devised plans to completely eliminate Christianity after the Third Reich was firmly established. He wanted to use religion to subvert it for his own political purposes,
    https://www.scholarscorner.com/atheisms-body-count-ideology-and-human-suffering/

    Hitler, Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao – quotes – Foundational Darwinian influence in their ideology – July 2020
    https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/michael-egnor-on-the-relationship-between-darwinism-and-totalitarianism/#comment-707831

    Thus, though the atheists here on UD may rightly express moral outrage at the violence that occurred at the Capital yesterday, the truth is that they simply have no basis for their moral outrage.

    To have a basis for their moral outrage, atheists, secular humanists, and/or progressives, are in fact forced to adopt the objective Christian moral ethic of not overcoming evil with more evil but instead overcoming evil with good.

    Romans 12:21
    Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

    Matthew 5:43-48
    “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    Thus in conclusion, if the atheists here on UD are truly, and rightly, morally outraged at the recent political violence in America, (the political violence committed by both the far left and the far right), and know without a shadow of a doubt that resorting to such violence to resolve political disputes is a morally wrong thing to do, then I would hope that they would at least be honest enough with themselves, and with others, to honestly admit that their atheistic worldview cannot possibly ground such a objective moral standard, and that therefore the moral ethic of ‘overcoming evil with good’, (which is a thoroughly Christian ethic), must be true. And that therefore their atheistic worldview must necessarily be false.

    Otherwise, atheists simply have no moral basis for being morally outraged. (In fact, their Darwinian worldview is completely inconsistent with such moral outrage)

    “The first principle of value that we need to rediscover is this: that all reality hinges on moral foundations. In other words, that this is a moral universe, and that there are moral laws of the universe just as abiding as the physical laws.”
    – Martin Luther King Jr., A Knock at Midnight: Inspiration from the Great Sermons of Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr.

    “Yet our common moral knowledge is as real as arithmetic, and probably just as plain. Paradoxically, maddeningly, we appeal to it even to justify wrongdoing; rationalization is the homage paid by sin to guilty knowledge.”
    – J. Budziszewski, What We Can’t Not Know: A Guide

    Romans 2:14-15
    (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

  184. 184

    Bob O’H,

    I said, “IF the conspiracy theory is true.” He doesn’t have to announce that he’s invoked the insurrection act. He only has to announce the prelim order for dispersal, which he did.

    As far as politically, that’s a non-issue. He’s known for years now that if he doesn’t prevail, his life and that of his family and friends is basically ruined – if not over. He has nothing to lose.

  185. 185
    jerry says:

    I think thus far he’s come out of this much worse politically – even his VP has condemned what happened.

    We shall see. Trump wasn’t doing what he did for political power. He’s in his mid 70’s. He was draining the Swamp and ‘they’ didn’t like it. In four more years the Swamp might have been substantially drained.

    But Pence’s political career is over.

    If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine

  186. 186
    LarTanner says:

    Does anyone else want to address the problem of how the government should move forward to address potentially 20 million armed and very angry citizens who believe the election was fraudulent?

    (1) A responsible leader that these people trust might explain that they should change their belief. Trum did not win the election. He lost. Per Politifact:

    All 50 states and the District of Columbia have certified their election results, which Congress sought to finalize Jan. 6. Those results show that Biden won with 306 electoral votes, to Trump’s 232. Biden won the popular vote by about 7 million.

    There is no evidence that voter fraud affected that outcome.

    Election officials in every state have said there was no sign of significant voter fraud during the voting process. The Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency and its election partners called the 2020 election “the most secure in American history.” Former Attorney General William Barr said the Justice Department had uncovered no evidence of widespread fraud. Barr reiterated that point before his Dec. 23 resignation.

    (2) If these people choose not to change their beliefs to correspond to reality, another option open to them is to find political candidates who agree with or at least tolerate their ravings. If those candidates can win elections, then these people will have the representation they crave.

    It’s unfortunate so many people have been duped into the voter fraud nonsense, and clearly many of these people are responsible for being made suckers. Hopefully, they repent and broaden their horizons a bit. Otherwise, as long as they don’t pull any more silly insurrectionist stunts, they can just continue to fade into irrelevance (except on QAnon, of course).

  187. 187

    LarTanner said:

    (1) A responsible leader that these people trust might explain that they should change their belief. Trum did not win the election. He lost. Per Politifact:

    Reiterating what they have already rejected as false is your way forward? Just “telling” them they’re wrong? Have you met people? That work for you a lot – telling people they’re wrong?

    (2) If these people choose not to change their beliefs to correspond to reality, another option open to them is to find political candidates that represent their beliefs. If those candidates can win elections, then these people will have the representation they crave.

    That ignores the fact that these people believe elections are now fraudulent (and probably have been for a while). They don’t consider voting a viable option going forward. Any other ideas?

  188. 188
    jerry says:

    It’s unfortunate so many people have been duped into the voter fraud nonsense

    One has to be really stupid to believe there wasn’t significant voter fraud. Stacey Abrams admitted how it was done in Georgia.

    So those claiming it didn’t happen art just being disingenuous. But that is nothing new on this site and elsewhere. The commenters here are just a microcosm of what’s out there.

  189. 189
    Sven Mil says:

    The rioting yesterday was in support of the incredibly ignorant, childish and uneducated imbecile that we allowed to become president through complicit indifference. He was put in power by playing to the portion of the country that are just as ignorant, childish, and uneducated as himself. It’s quite fitting to watch you guys so vehemently support him and give credence to all these conspiracy theories. I guess it’s exactly what I should expect from a bunch of climate change-denying, anti-evolution crackpots. Next you’ll be telling us 9/11 was an inside job and the government puts fluoride in the water to control our minds. I love that you guys are simply so delusional and wrong about everything.

  190. 190
    Viola Lee says:

    WJM asks,

    “(1) What would you like those tens of millions to do? What would you do in their shoes?”

    First, accept that Trump has conceded. Work to find ways to constructively engage with society about issues of concern.

    (2) Given the premise above, what would be the best course of action forward by the government?

    Realize that we are a deeply divided country, and that we have deeply divided information sources and methods that are making it hard for us to become less divided. Work towards healing and towards developing bipartisanship.

  191. 191
    LarTanner says:

    Any other ideas?

    Sure. The deplorables can lump it. If they want to be angry, miserable, and wrong, then so be it.

  192. 192
    jerry says:

    Work towards healing and towards developing bipartisanship.

    That always means for one side “agree with me.”

    Realize that we are a deeply divided country, and that we have deeply divided information sources and methods that are making it hard for us to become less divided.

    When the press is corrupt and someone won’t admit it, do you want to agree with that person’s assessment?

    If they want to be angry, miserable, and wrong,

    There’s bipartisanship for you. But what:

    If they are angry and right.

    Do we have one side espousing truth and another side espousing their feelings only? Which side do you choose? Emotions not based on truth and reason will lead to chaos.

  193. 193
    Bob O'H says:

    kf @ 175 –

    BO’H, I am confident that the substance is clear,

    I’m sorry it’s not (and the rest of 175 doesn’t help). Please, don’t try being indirect. It doesn’t work because the reader can’t read your mind and doesn’t know what you’re alluding to. If you’re genuinely trying to communicate something,try being clear and direct.

  194. 194
    Bob O'H says:

    WJM @ 184 – what does this conspiracy theory say is Trump’s aim? It looks from here like he wants to just burn everything down to the ground, but I assume the theory suggests something more than that.

  195. 195
    JVL says:

    Jerry: That always means for one side “agree with me.” When the press is corrupt and someone won’t admit it, do you want agree with that person?

    What happened to talking and compromising? Why does everything have to be one side or the other?

  196. 196
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: JVL, paid liars have no credibility.

    To whom are you referring to with this slanderous comment?

  197. 197
    JVL says:

    Bornagain77: And yet, not a peep of moral outrage from those on the left. Biden, after a few months of being asked to condemn the violence, offered only one measly worded condemnation of the widespread violence. Kamala Harris herself, likewise arranged for millions of dollars to be donated so as to bail those out of jail who had perpetrated this violence.

    I can’t speak for anyone else but I did deplore and condemn the violence that occurred this summer. By the way, I’m not a ‘Dim’.

  198. 198
    LarTanner says:

    Jerry,
    Bipartisanship left the building years ago. Even principled Republicans strategically abandoned it in the Obama years. The governing party must govern the entire nation, it’s true, but it cannot worry about appeasing a Republican party that is today a frightful mess. We still have a pandemic, Trump ran up the national debt horribly, our alliances and political standing are not good at all, our government has been only partly functional for four years, and so on. Biden and the Democrats have a ton of work ahead to restore Amercia, so playing nice with the people who sought to destroy it need not be high on their agenda.

  199. 199
    JVL says:

    It wasn’t hard to see, when it began, that it would end exactly the way it has. Donald Trump is America’s willful arsonist, the man who lit the match under the fabric of our constitutional republic.

    The duty of the House of Representatives and the Senate, once they certify Joe Biden’s election, is to reconvene, Wednesday night if possible, to impeach the president and then remove him from office and bar him from ever holding office again.

    To allow Trump to serve out his term, however brief it may be, puts the nation’s safety at risk, leaves our reputation as a democracy in tatters and evades the inescapable truth that the assault on Congress was an act of violent sedition aided and abetted by a lawless, immoral and terrifying president.

    From the moment Trump became the G.O.P. front-runner in 2015, it was obvious who he was and where, if given the chance, he would take America. He was a malignant narcissist in his person. A fraudster in his businesses. A bully in his relationships. And a demagogue in his politics.
    He did not have ideas. He had bigotries. He did not have a coalition. He had crowds. He did not have character. He had a quality of confident shamelessness, the kind that offered his followers permission to be shameless, too.

    The Republican Party is now walking to the edge of moral irredeemability. I say this as someone who, until 2016, had always voted the straight Republican ticket and who, until this week, had hoped that Republicans would hold the Senate as a way of tilting the Biden administration to the center. I say this also of the party generally, and not of the courageous individual Republicans — Brad Raffensperger, Mitt Romney, Denver Riggleman, Larry Hogan, Ben Sasse (the list is depressingly short) — who have preserved their principles, maintained their honor and kept their heads these past five years.

    But there is no getting away from the extent to which leading party members and their cheerleaders in the right-wing media are complicit in creating the political atmosphere in which this Visigothic sacking of the Capitol took place.

    The legal hucksters, from Rudy Giuliani to Mark Levin, who promoted demonstrably debunkable claims about electoral fraud, are complicit. All of those supposedly sober-minded conservatives who encouraged the president to “pursue his legal options” (knowing full well they were bunk, but with the assurance that they would settle doubts about the validity of the vote) are complicit. The 126 House Republicans who signed on to the preposterous brief supporting the Texas lawsuit to overturn the election — flicked away in a single paragraph by the Supreme Court — are complicit. Ted Cruz, whom I once described as a “serpent covered in Vaseline” but who turns out to be considerably worse, is complicit. Josh Hawley and the rest of the Senate cynics, who tried to obstruct Biden’s election certification in a transparent bid to corner the market on Trumpian craziness, are complicit. Mike Pence, who cravenly humored Trump’s fantasies right till the moment of constitutional truth, is complicit. (If there’s an argument against Trump’s removal from office, he alone is it.)

    Some of these charlatans are now trying to disavow Wednesday’s violence in carefully phrased tweets. But Cruz, Hawley, Pence and the other Bitter-Enders have done far more lasting damage to Congress than the mob that — merely by following their lead — physically trashed it. Broken doors can be fixed. Broken parties cannot.

    For five years, Republicans let him degrade political culture by normalizing his behavior. For five years, they let him wage war on democratic norms and institutions. For five years, they treated his nonstop mendacity as a quirk of character, not a disqualification for office. For five years, they treated his rallies as carnivals of democracy, not as training grounds for mob rule.

    For five years, they thought this was costless. On Wednesday — forgive the cliché, but it’s apt here — their chickens came home to roost.

    Every decent society depends for its survival on its ability to be shocked — and stay shocked — by genuinely shocking behavior. Donald Trump’s entire presidency has been an assault on that idea.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/06/opinion/impeach-trump.html

    A very opinionated piece, not news.

  200. 200
    LarTanner says:

    Not for nothing: the stock market this morning seems to be rallying to acknowledge the restoration of order and the upcoming return of competence.

  201. 201
    JVL says:

    French President Emmanuel Macron has become the latest world leader to react to yesterday’s violence at the US Capitol.

    “What happened today in Washington DC is not America,” Macron said in a video, which was posted on Twitter alongside the words “We believe in democracy”.

    “We believe in the strength of our democracies. We believe in the strength of American democracy.”

    German Chancellor Angela Merkel said earlier that she felt “angry and also sad” after seeing images of the violent scenes, while other European leaders also voiced their condemnation of the attack.

    In Russia, however, a foreign ministry spokeswoman blamed the violence on the “archaic” US electoral system and American media.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/election-us-2020-55558355

  202. 202
    JVL says:

    The political fallout continues as another member of Trump’s team resigns. Special envoy to Northern Ireland Mick Mulvaney announced on Thursday that he’s resigning from his position, according to CNBC. Once one of Trump’s closest advisers, Mulvaney was White House chief of staff from January 2019 to March 2020.

    “I called [Secretary of State] Mike Pompeo last night to let him know I was resigning from that. I can’t do it. I can’t stay,” he told CNBC.

    “Those who choose to stay, and I have talked with some of them, are choosing to stay because they’re worried the president might put someone worse in,” he said.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/election-us-2020-55558355

  203. 203
    Steve Alten2 says:

    Bornagain77 @5, 6 and 20.

    I have been reviewing the earlier comments to make sure that I am not rehashing something that has already been addressed. In the above three comments you link to several OPs by Dr. Hunter. When I go to his blog I can’t find any of these posts. Do you happen to have them archived?

  204. 204
    jerry says:

    Not for nothing: the stock market this morning seems to be rallying to acknowledge the restoration of order and the upcoming return of competence

    I suggest you post the pre Trump stock market averages with today. That was just 4 years ago. You should check out Paul Krugman for an accurate prediction.

    so playing nice with the people who sought to destroy it need not be high on their agenda.

    By “their” I assume you mean the people who created the “Russian”hoax. And Biden ran on the “fine people” hoax. So are the “their” pathological liars?

  205. 205
    jerry says:

    One of the last text messages by Ashli Babbit

    https://twitter.com/RealDealAxelrod/status/1347004094741794824

  206. 206

    Viola Lee said:

    First, accept that Trump has conceded. Work to find ways to constructively engage with society about issues of concern.

    1. If you think Trump conceded, you might want to read his statement again.
    2. What “ways” would you advise them to do so, given they think elections and the courts are fraudulent and corrupt?

    Realize that we are a deeply divided country, and that we have deeply divided information sources and methods that are making it hard for us to become less divided. Work towards healing and towards developing bipartisanship.

    That all seems really general, like a mission statement. I’m asking for suggestions. How do you go about the “work towards healing?” Why would “bipartisanship” help with people who think the establishment of both parties are corrupt? How do you become “less divided?”

  207. 207

    Bob O’H @194: In a sense, he is (supposedly) “burning everything down,” at least a huge percentage of the system, because it’s corrupt. It would be like a controlled burn to clear the rot in order to save the forest. The final goal, according to the theory, is to gather all the evidence and flush every corrupt and treasonous actor out, while “red-pilling” as many people as to what is going on as possible, declassify, then arrest & prosecute swiftly in military court. Letting the process play out like this, supposedly, is giving bad actors every opportunity to do the right thing, and allowing them to commit the crime before dropping the hammer.

    In short, supposedly, it’s been a 4-year sting operation. Oh, BTW, according to the theory, this isn’t Trump’s plan. He’s just the front man, basically the only guy capable of taking the heat.

  208. 208

    LarTanner said:

    Sure. The deplorables can lump it. If they want to be angry, miserable, and wrong, then so be it.

    Let them eat cake, then? That doesn’t work out too well, historically speaking.

  209. 209
    bornagain77 says:

    Steve Alten2, no I do not have the posts by Dr. Hunter saved except from what I clipped on this thread.

    He must have pulled them down. For whatever reason I do not know. But I suspect that it is because of what happened yesterday rather than any technical error since his work agrees with other studies that were conducted elsewhere on Dominion.

    But you would have to contact him personally to know for sure.,,, I do not know how to contact him personally. I tried before and could not reach him.

  210. 210
    Bob O'H says:

    In short, supposedly, it’s been a 4-year sting operation. Oh, BTW, according to the theory, this isn’t Trump’s plan. He’s just the front man, basically the only guy capable of taking the heat.

    Sounds like a deep state. 🙂

    So it’s a 4-year operation, that has to sting in less than 2 weeks.

  211. 211

    Bob O’H: Yep, that’s the long and short of it. We’ll see quickly enough. I’m hoping it happens, because the alternative is going to be really, really bad, IMO – at least for people that take things that happen in this world seriously.

  212. 212
    Viola Lee says:

    WJM writes, “1. If you think Trump conceded, you might want to read his statement again.”

    You are correct. Trump has not conceded. I should have written “Accept that Trump has lost, and that Joe Biden will become president on January 20th”

  213. 213
    asauber says:

    So who has the scoop on why Capitol security didn’t maintain a perimeter, or why they let *some* “protesters” through barricades, or if they were instructed to stand down?

    Also the woman who was shot and died. Seems odd that one person was singled out to be killed. Any further info on that?

    Andrew

  214. 214
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL (oops), slander turns on falsity. It is demonstrable that the major media, for years, have increasingly given up sound journalism in favour of destructive agit prop. On fair comment doctrine, for cause, I sum that up, paid liars. At least, the ideologues at Wikipedia do it for free. Under prevailing circumstances, therefore, unless you can show evidentiary cause for any significant media assertion I have a perfect right of prudence to hold such the dubious mouth noises of those whose opinions and arguments are bought and paid for, with no effective reference to standards of responsible conduct. If you or LT et al want separate substantiation, I suggest you consult the recent works of a former CNN journalist who had enough and walked away, Ms Sharyl Attkisson. Beyond, read 1984. Essentially, across the board. So, kindly do not quote any unsubstantiated media assertion to me. Your turnabout projection fails. KF

    PS: Def’n, to lie is to speak with disregard to truth in hope of profiting from that what is said or suggested being taken as true.

  215. 215
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: I cannot but note that there has been no substantial addressing of the body of evidence on material fraud. It is there [I add, for 101 start here: https://hereistheevidence.com/ ], and no, acts under colour of law do not convert fraud into legitimate government; nor will surrender to institutionalisation of fraud make a difference. Those who enable same become after the fact accessories. There may well be a seeming triumph come Jan 20, but that makes not a whit of difference to the underlying reality — sudden high dudgeon over a few thousand idiots losing control and feeding a pre-written agit prop narrative notwithstanding. (I cannot but contrast months on mostly peaceful protests.) Onward, once constitutional backstops are disregarded in the teeth of manifest fraud, the deep state establishment, their media flacks and spin doctors/pundits etc will then face an undefeated Western people realising that they just suffered an electoral Pearl Harbor by McFaul colour revolution. That is, an existential threat to liberty, thus life. The grim resolve of such a people to stand and fight without regard to odds and blandishments in the face of such a threat until it is irretrievably broken, will soon reveal the magnitude of blunder committed. The storm is about to hit Cats 3 – 5 folks. KF

  216. 216
    jerry says:

    Sure. The deplorables can lump it. If they want to be angry, miserable, and wrong, then so be it.

    A response to denigrating deplorables from the internet. Obviously just someone’s opinion but how accurate is it?

    If your first response to political news is to publicly declare your desire to “cleanse” the populace of the deplorable untermensch, there’s a super good chance that you’re one of the bad guys

  217. 217
    jerry says:

    I cannot but note that there has been no substantial addressing of the body of evidence on material fraud.

    There is no objection of substance. Hence, silence.

  218. 218
    kairosfocus says:

    Jerry, we are dealing with what the Japanese called victory disease, commonly called strategic overstretch. They don’t understand that if you go elephant-hunting with a one shot gun, you had better hit a vital, instant kill spot. Pearl Harbor . . . a raid by Kido Butai on an unprepared, unready opponent . . . was not. Yes, they ran the board for six months. Then, with grim resolve the tide turned until three years after Midway, mushroom clouds hung over two Japanese cities. My projection is, strategic decision within a year, but of course there is likely to be a grim long retreat. Those who launch war of treachery do not understand grim unyielding resolve in the face of existential threat. I suggest to such, if Thermopylae and aftermath are too ancient then ponder the Pacific War and the case of Israel 1967 and 73. Where, if you cannot see the treachery in what happened, it will soon enough be hammered home with searing force. KF

  219. 219
    kairosfocus says:

    PS: U/D on McFaul Colour revolution, SOCOM insurgency escalator and generations of war.

  220. 220
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: It is demonstrable that the major media, for years, have increasingly given up sound journalism in favour of destructive agit prop. On fair comment doctrine, for cause, I sum that up, paid liars.

    So, you disagree with them and what they choose to present as news so they are liars. Really?

    Under prevailing circumstances, therefore, unless you can show evidentiary cause for any significant media assertion I have a perfect right of prudence to hold such the dubious mouth noises of those whose opinions and arguments are bought and paid for, with no effective reference to standards of responsible conduct.

    “mouth noises”? hahahahahahahahah

    Beyond, read 1984. Essentially, across the board. So, kindly do not quote any unsubstantiated media assertion to me. Your turnabout projection fails.

    That’s what you always say when someone disagrees with you. They must be wrong

    I cannot but note that there has been no substantial addressing of the body of evidence on material fraud.

    Which is just ridiculous. I have called several parts of your evidence into question as have other commenters. Again, if someone disagrees with you they must be wrong.

    Onward, once constitutional backstops are disregarded

    You mean like the Trump supporters who assaulted the capitol building? They completely disregarded due process and constitutional procedures. But you agree with them so that’s okay.

    their media flacks and spin doctors/pundits etc will then face an undefeated Western people realising that they just suffered an electoral Pearl Harbor by McFaul colour revolution.

    Strange they could not establish that in a court of law. I wonder why?

    Those who launch war of treachery do not understand grim unyielding resolve in the face of existential threat.

    Gosh, another Ruby Ridge or Branch Dividians?

    Where, if you cannot see the treachery in what happened, it will soon enough be hammered home with searing force.

    Are you sure you want to uphold and support a group of people who were carrying Confederate flags in the US Capitol? Really? These people are not your friends or saviours. They’re bigots. Trumps biggest support came from middle-aged and older WHITES. Not blacks or any other minority. WHITES. You’d suffer much more that I would under a regime piloted by them.

  221. 221
    LarTanner says:

    They don’t understand that if you go elephant-hunting with a one shot gun, you had better hit a vital, instant kill spot.

    Which is why the insurrection failed: the rubes were playing coup but actually were not prepared to follow through. Now, many of the insurgents will be identified and called to account for the destruction they caused. No one is above the law, and all are presumed innocent until proven guilty, but people will go down because of their own actions yesterday. And Trump won’t be there to pardon them, regardless of whether he is removed from office before 20 January.

    By the way, I am detecting an absence of shame over the insurrection. I hope people realize that Trump and his supporters disgraced and dishonored America yesterday. The storming of the capitol is the crowning moment of it all, but the whole “rigged election” malarky is part of it.

  222. 222
    jerry says:

    By the way, I am detecting an absence of shame over the insurrection.

    Here’s the headline that should have been written

    People demanded to address legislators who were installing an illegal government. </I<

    Sounds like patriots who like the Boston Tea Party will be remembered 200 years from now.

    he storming of the capitol is the crowning moment of it all, but the whole “rigged election” malarky is part of it.

    It’s interesting no one nowhere can show it is malarky.

    Give it your best shot.

  223. 223
    Steve Alten2 says:

    Bornagain77 “ He must have pulled them down. For whatever reason I do not know. But I suspect that it is because of what happened yesterday rather than any technical error since his work agrees with other studies that were conducted elsewhere on Dominion.

    Thanks. I checked back on his blog and he posted this about their removal. “ Yes. Especially important now given the strife that has arisen. The series was too easily interpreted as political advocacy, which it was not.

  224. 224
    Steve Alten2 says:

    Facebook has blocked Trump’s account until after the 20th. Twitter, however, lifted his block this morning, but Trump has not used it yet. As a petulant child, he is probably sulking and biting off his nose to spite his face.

  225. 225
    Viola Lee says:

    Lindsay Graham, in his speech on the Arizona challenge yesterday said (and I paraphrase from memory), “Enough is enough, it’s over BIden won”. He want to say that some of the “evidence” that had been presented in Georgia, I think, was laughable: 68,000 voters under 18, 12,000 voters who were dead. “Who would believe that,” said Lindsay. When they investigated, they found one of each.

    This is not fake news, and Graham has been (until recently) a strong Trump supporter.

  226. 226
    jerry says:

    Facebook has blocked Trump’s account until after the 20th.

    Facebook funded the illegal election activities. Zuckerberg gave about a half billion dollars to make it happen.

  227. 227
    jerry says:

    This is not fake news

    Maybe, but how about the ballots whose signatures were not checked against the voter? This is how they did it. Why all secrecy for observing this? There was several hundred thousand in the counties around Atlanta of these ballots.

    Stacey Abrams admitted that the checking of signatures was how it was done.

  228. 228
    LarTanner says:

    It’s interesting no one nowhere can show it is malarky.

    In America, one is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

    If you wish to accuse someone of “rigging the election” or committing “voter fraud,” you know where to go. It’s not YouTube, Twitter, some dude’s website, mom’s basement, OAN, Parler, or your local white pride social circle.

    If in court you cannot show conclusively with evidence, math, and general competence that illegal activity occurred and had a significant effect, then let’s not reject the sensible conclusion that the election results actually do reflect the will of American voters.

  229. 229
    bornagain77 says:

    Steve Alten2, thanks.,,, Dr. Hunter, who teaches at a Christian University, is a very principled man, and I respect him for his decision to keep politics out of it.,, Dr. Hunter has really earned my respect over the years.,,, Cool as a cucumber in his interactions with Darwinists, and smart as a whip!

  230. 230
    jerry says:

    if in court you cannot show conclusively with evidence, math, and general competence that illegal activity occurred and had a significant effect

    Has this been done. This question was asked on the previous thread and no one could show where any court cases evaluated. the evidence except possibly one.

    A lot of court cases but they were not apparently on the evidence or its impact. Trump’s legal team offered to come to Georgia to discuss discrepancies but were told they were wrong but they couldn’t come to see the evidence they had. It would have been so easy to lay it all out and bring in the press to see the objections and the answers. But no one did.

    Maybe the officials in Georgia are correct but why not take the evidence and then show it to be false. This is what is missing.

    It would have been easy to show how many ballots were rejected because of signature issues. And how this number compared to previous elections.

  231. 231
    LarTanner says:

    Well, I can’t help you on this, Jerry. If somebody has evidence and access to a lawyer, perhaps together they can bring it to a real-life court. Let’s see what happens.

    Perhaps UD’s resident legal eagle will take the case?

  232. 232

    Viola Lee:
    Care to drop whatever Trump quote you are referring to and the source? It must not be what I read.

  233. 233

    Viola Lee said:

    This is not fake news, and Graham has been (until recently) a strong Trump supporter.

    How is what Lindsey Graham said significant?

  234. 234

    LarTanner attempts mind-reading:

    Which is why the insurrection failed: the rubes were playing coup but actually were not prepared to follow through.

    Yeah, the two dozen or so guys that actually entered the Capitol building thought they were going to successfully take over the USA. I’m sure you’re right about that.

    Now, many of the insurgents will be identified and called to account for the destruction they caused. No one is above the law, and all are presumed innocent until proven guilty, but people will go down because of their own actions yesterday. And Trump won’t be there to pardon them, regardless of whether he is removed from office before 20 January.

    What difference does that make?

    By the way, I am detecting an absence of shame over the insurrection.

    Yep.

    “God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. … And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.” – Thomas Jefferson

    When it comes to me, you’re trying to violence-shame the wrong guy. I don’t have a problem with violence. Neither did the people that founded this country. Violence, the threat of it and those willing to use it is the only reason any of us enjoy whatever freedoms and rights we have left.

    This is why I asked people to give their proposals for how to move forward when you have 20+ million angry, armed citizens who have lost faith in the government and the election process. All I got back from the “anti-Trump” side was, basically, empty platitudes and, essentially, “let them eat cake.”

    Apparently, you guys think the Trump supports will just be “shamed” into peaceful silence. Good luck with that.

  235. 235
    LarTanner says:

    William: I could care less about your sense of shame. Apologies if it appears otherwise.

    Same with “20+ million angry, armed citizens who have lost faith in the government and the election process.” Their stupidity and cowardice is not my problem.

    You will get no move forward proposals from me because whatever the “20+ million angry, armed citizens” do, if anything, it is sure to be bungled. The way I see it, there’s important work to be done and no sense trying to bring aboard people who refuse to accept they were grifted.

  236. 236
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, that you fail to acknowledge what has been going on with the media for years, makes not one whit of difference to that ugly reality. I leave you to ponder Ms Attkisson in Slanted (2020):

    In George Orwell’s dystopian novel 1984, the hapless protagonist, Winston Smith, is a government records editor at the Ministry of Truth—which is a job that’s all about lies [he rewrites the only authorised record to make it conform to the current party-line] . . . .

    Today, we’re in an Orwellian environment that has taken this frightening scenario a step further. Big Brother constantly revised “facts” to fit the government’s ever-changing story. The modern media have also discovered how to carefully filter information on the front end to make sure that only the “correct” view is presented in the first place. That way, the story never has to change.

    Right now, as you read these words, versions of history and current events are being written and revised in real time according to what powerful interests wish them to say. Our “memory hole” is found in growing efforts to “curate” or censor information on the news, ban certain facts, declare selected viewpoints illegitimate, cleanse social media of particular accounts, and judge people and events of the distant past using today’s evolving and controversial standards.

    Even those who know better are left, like Winston Smith, to guess and wonder how many others like them are out there—how many of the unindoctrinated who don’t buy the spin? There’s certainly no way to find out by clicking on different Internet articles or flipping among cable news channels.

    This giant purge of knowledge and facts wouldn’t be possible without the news media. We in the media have, to a frightening degree, gotten on board with the efforts to convince the public that they do not need or deserve access to all information, only that which powerful interests see fit for them to have.

    Reporters are so aware of this that they have a name for it: The Narrative. The phrase is used to describe what we caught others doing to try to shape the news. Now we’re doing it ourselves.

    The Narrative refers to a story line that influential people want told in order to define and narrow your views. The goal of The Narrative is to embed chosen ideas so deeply within society that they are no longer questioned—scratch that—so that questions are not permitted.

    Slanted tells the story of what happens when reporters convince news consumers that the reporters’ own opinions are more valuable than facts. With an information universe at our fingertips on the news and Internet and with propagandists working overtime to shape it, many people ask what they can believe. Journalists are more than happy to tell them. Unfortunately, the journalists are too often driven by propaganda, as well . . .

    KF

  237. 237

    Okay LT.

    Anyone else want to chime in with their ideas on how to handle 20+ million armed, angry citizens who no longer have faith in the government or the elections?

  238. 238
    kairosfocus says:

    LT, you seem to imagine that you can use clever turnabout rhetoric to blunt the force of evidence that you evidently cannot cogently address, and the 4th gen war of treachery impact of an electoral Pearl Harbor by McFaul Colour-Culture revolution tactics. Over the next year, you will begin to understand why I have warned on the un-wisdom of creating an existential threat to liberty, so too, life. KF

  239. 239
    kairosfocus says:

    WJM, LT’s echoing of the gross exaggeration of a protest getting out of hand into coup and insurrection is an example of the sort of slanderous narrative that has become increasingly common. It invites a cognitive dissonance, mirror principle read-back to the source in light of projecting to the despised other. There is no actual evidence of significance of an attempted coup but there is abundant evidence piling up for months of a McFaul colour-culture revolution, complete with red guard riots, organising networks, funding networks and more. We can even draw pretty direct parallels to Egypt’s case. That’s before we see abundant evidence on public facts of knowing undermining of electoral system integrity to the point where it would fail benchmarking against how a run of the mill coop bank handles cash and accounts. An army of lawyers and activists was sent out to push through effectively uncontrolled mail-in ballots, 3rd party ballot harvesting and frustration of scrutineering. And more. So, what we are seeing is inadvertent confession by projection. Telling. KF

    PS: Can you imagine what would happen to the opposed arguments if we were to demand successful passing through courts on detailed substance or they would be disqualified from consideration? The blatant hyperskepticism to dismiss rather than deal with abundant evidence, speaks volumes.

    PPS: I would take media pile ons including by OAS etc more seriously if I did not observe for months a very different reaction when riots were going on across the US. That asymmetry is glaring and revealing on the credibility of the remarks.

  240. 240
    LarTanner says:

    KF, do you really think I’m clever? Awww.

    Let’s do this: Tell me right now what exactly I am going to be regretting “Over the next year” that you are warning about. I will show up on 1/7/22 to say you were right all along and I should have heeded your dire warnings of Old McDonald color of law blah-blah-blah.

    However, if we arrive here on 1/7/22 and all the Republicans have not summarily been sent to concentration camps in New Mexico, will you be so kind to admit you actually have no idea what you are talking about?

  241. 241
    jerry says:

    How is what Lindsey Graham said significant?

    He said there were no underage voters in Georgia. And no felon voters In Arizona. But that is not how the election was most likely stolen. It was with mail in ballot verification.

  242. 242
    kairosfocus says:

    LT, you obviously feel empowered to vent. It is clear that you have not engaged substantial evidence showing why about 1/2 the US public, for cause, views this as a fraud-tainted election. The radical agendas already on the table point to entrenching the means of that fraud [ponder proposed HR1 and changes in rules that are already controversial]; leading to existential threat to liberty, thus life. Over the next year, consequences will come out as the simmering 4th gen civil war moves to strategic decision. A threshold has been crossed and there is no going back to a now dead past. Why did some ever think it was clever to take advantage of CV19 to push through destabilisation of already substandard election systems to the point where their credibility has been decisively broken? Your denial and echoing of over the top media agit prop does not change that underlying reality. Or, its consequences. KF

  243. 243
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: conveniently drowned out in the noise, the stonewalling of ballot scans for kinematic artifacts. No prizes for guesses. KF

  244. 244
    LarTanner says:

    KF, as I have said, I do not care one whit about what (you say) half of Americans’ views are on the election. They have been lied to, and yours is the radical agenda. You need to wake up to that fact.

    The threshold that has been crossed is this. In 2016, Democrats and others were all concerned about the angry voters who elected a clear charlatan in Trump. Now that he’s demolished the health, economy, federal deficit, and standing of America — none of which you admit publicly — you are still talking gibberish about some other people engaging in highly coordinated and ultra-sophisticated world-control techniques. Mwa-ha-ha, indeed.

    But the threshold that’s been crossed is that it’s plain there’s no reasoning with the “angry voters.” It’s the same with evolution deniers and climate deniers and whatever else is in your basket of crazies. You’re all hell-bent on copping your attitude and will not adjust your views in light of the evidence — or the lack thereof. There’s no point in trying to appease you or reach out to you or dialogue seriously with you because you are quite literally unreasonable.

  245. 245
    bornagain77 says:

    President Trump releases new video condemning violence; commits to peaceful transfer of power
    https://www.arklatexhomepage.com/news/washington-dc/president-trump-releases-new-video-focusing-on-national-unity/

  246. 246
    Steve Alten2 says:

    Interesting video. I wonder who wrote it for him, and what pressure they used to force him to read it? 25th amendment, maybe.

  247. 247
    Viola Lee says:

    Jerry writes about Lindsay Graham, “He said there were no underage voters in Georgia. And no felon voters In Arizona. But that is not how the election was most likely stolen. It was with mail in ballot verification.”

    Yes, but it was one the claims being made that was ludicrous. It’s hard for me to give any credibility to people who put forth or believe such claims even if maybe some of their other claims have some legitimacy. Trump and his cohorts just spew out the whole lot of claims without any grasp of whether there are claims that might have some evidence vs. claims that are total balderdash.

  248. 248
    kairosfocus says:

    LT, there is enough evidence that it is clear that election fraud concerns are for cause. We cannot but observe that you have signally failed to substantially address; now you profess contempt thus qualifying yourself as trollish. Beyond, the blatant contrast between coverage of the summer campaign of massively destructive riots and what is obviously an agit prop pounce on what would hardly have been noticed were it on the other side are sufficient to show that what is going on is of little credibility. It is sad and out of order for riot to occur, regardless of side. It is sad that a young lady lost her life to what looks too much like trigger-happy over-reaction for comfort. Now, what is needed is sober reforms of a broken election system; just what is being dismissed with the aid of the agit prop narrative. The consequences of that are sobering and will play out in coming months. Sad, but then Plato’s too often unheeded 2400 year old warning on the moral hazards of democracy, would have helped us avert what is now clearly in train. It looks like we will have to learn the hard way yet again. KF

  249. 249
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: U/D5 to OP, Mr Gaetz gives the epitaph to the 2020 election. KF

  250. 250
    es58 says:

    To the math literate including Bob o’h
    Please explain how the following is either flawed or irrelevant
    https://youtu.be/O1cCRYOesWc

  251. 251
    vividbleau says:

    WJM
    “Anyone else want to chime in with their ideas on how to handle 20+ million armed, angry citizens who no longer have faith in the government or the elections?”

    Well Biden and Harris are not off to a good start. I am left wondering whatever happened to the medias and Dem politicians exhortations during the summer that “Riots is the language of the unheard” LOL

    Personally I predict an all out assault on the civil liberties of Trump supporters and political conservatives. Time to hunker down.

    Vivid

  252. 252
    jerry says:

    one the claims being made that was ludicrous. It’s hard for me to give any credibility to people who put forth or believe such claims even if maybe some of their other claims have some legitimacy.

    All it takes is enough valid claims to make a difference.

    The site https://hereistheevidence.com/ looks at nearly 1600 claims sorted by state or nationwide. I could not find any claim made about underage voters in Georgia. I know it was part of a Trump claim but it is apparently not in this database. At least I couldn’t find it.

  253. 253
    vividbleau says:

    KF
    In a previous post JVL wrote
    “So, you disagree with them and what they choose to present as news so they are liars. Really?”

    Yes JVL they are liars. I gave you chapter and verse a while back with you basically leaving the field so to speak. Now you are challenging KFs accurate description of the media as if you were never confronted with the facts, facts that are not in dispute indeed facts you did not dispute.

    Vivid

  254. 254
    kairosfocus says:

    STATEMENT ON US PARTISAN POLITICS: Given high feelings that are obvious above, I wish to clarify for record as follows:

    1] PRIMARY FOCUS: My interests here at UD on a topic such as the above have to do first with the quality of thinking — or rather, lack of such — which lies behind opinion formation on pivotal issues, which is relevant onward to how the design inference issue is approached. The verdict, given the above and previous is that ideology not soundness is in the driver seat. (So, I am reinforced in my conclusion that the typical opposition to the design inference and to associated evidence is not a problem of evidence or logic but ideology. Ideology riddled with fallacies. The design issue and many others need to be discussed rationally but the ideological captivity of the domineering elites needs to be exposed as utterly bankrupt. In that context, appeal to alleged consensus is little more than a disguised demand for ideological and narrative conformity, tied to prejudice against the despised other. The especially heinous role of the agit prop media and its narrative games must be singled out.)

    2] POLITICAL INTEREST: As one seared by a dirty 4th gen civil war in my native land and its aftermath, my general opinion of politicians would probably get me into legal trouble if explicitly stated. Let Plato’s Parable of the Ship of State stand in for my general view. As touching US politics and parties, my problem, obviously would be across the board none of the above dis-endorsement, though obviously any party supporting holocaust and the like will gain an extra dollop. Nor, do I particularly like the NY Contractor in Chief [not a compliment]. My politics, at core, oddly enough is stated by an American, or rather 56 of them, in an explicitly natural law document (which thus implies a claim of universal jurisdiction):

    When . . . it becomes necessary for one people . . . to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 – 21, 2:14 – 15; note, law as “the highest reason,” per Cicero on received consensus], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . . .

    We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions [Cf. Judges 11:27], do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

    3] SUB-STATEMENT ON GEOSTRATEGIC AND CIVILISATION CONCERNS: The US, as leading maritime (and aerospace) power is the natural guardian of international stability, but has always been double-minded about that role once the Royal Navy carried out a global geostrategic retreat. (The last geostrategic initiative of the RN of consequence, was the joint semi-colonial move at Suez in 1956 in collaboration with France and Israel in response to Nasser’s nationalisation, the countering intervention of Eisenhower marked the decisive point of succession.) Therefore, US stability and policy soundness are of global interest, with 7.8 billion legitimate stakeholders, who have a natural right to express their concern. Further to this, warts and all, I believe Western Civilisation is the greatest cultural achievement of humanity, one that has enabled a world of 7.8 billions to by and large escape the predicted malthusian collapse envisioned by The Club of Rome. Further to this, the Christian synthesis of the heritage of Jerusalem, Athens and Rome with key roots in the river valley and Levantine civilisations of the fertile crescent and further infusions from the Germanic and Celtic peoples [including Britain] has been and continues to be pivotal to that civilisation’s success. In that context, the current civilisational crisis and desperate need for sound assessment and reform are of pivotal interest transcending the inanities and patent intellectual bankruptcy of partisan politics including in the US as is currently manifest. The current American crisis is a crisis of civilisation, reflected in the narrower 4th generation civil war and the wider geostrategic conflict with the circling eurasian vultures and those lurking in shadows nearby. The vultures will be defeated, but at horrific, rapidly mounting, needless cost. That is, the ongoing chaos and folly across the board — scapegoating Mr Trump and supporters is part of that folly — are increasing the ultimate cost of resolution.

    4] FURTHER SUB-STATEMENT ON THE MEDIA: As a whole, utterly bankrupt, whether traditional, electronic, new, social, tech or whatever. The media culture of message dominance to advance marxist critical theory tainted agit prop narratives is part of the problem not a solution. A media counter-culture is needed and must start with exposing the utter bankruptcy and fundamental dishonesty of the so-called main stream. This specifically includes the former gold standard reference of global media, the BBC. Across the coming year, the utter bankruptcy of the media will become painfully obvious to all but the utterly naive, it is already quite plain.

    5] LINKED SUB-STATEMENT ON LAW AND GOVERNMENT: It is decisive that law pivots on justice, the due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities. Without this, government is little more than brigandage, warlordism and protection rackets writ large. Legitimate government with due consent of the governed, therefore has a main focus, the upholding of the civil peace of justice. This obviously includes sound elections, in a small-d democratic era driven by the rise of moveable type print, growing literacy and the ferment of the Reformation, leading to a sufficiently informed public that government could move beyond oligarchy. The current crisis in the US represents a push of the deep state towards ideologically driven oligarchy, part of why it will fail. The deliberate corruption of soundness of elections — start here: https://hereistheevidence.com/ — is therefore a mark of treachery, indeed the McFaul Colour-Culture revolution in progress (cf OP above) is an operation of war by treachery that poses an existential threat to liberty, so too, to life. Where, both major political parties are clearly implicated, as well as the dominating elites essentially across the board. This points to new formation or to deep reforms. Fundamentally, we have to go all the way back to inescapable first duties of reason if sound reforms are to begin, and for sure the legal positivist notion that law is whatever those who control the legal presses issue is dead, though it likely doesn’t realise that the wound is mortal, yet.

    6] ON FIRST DUTIES OF REASON: If we are to go forward to restore soundness to our civilisation, we will need to start here:

    We can readily identify at least seven inescapable first duties of reason. “Inescapable,” as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to them; i.e. they are self-evident. Namely, duties, to truth, to right reason, to prudence, to sound conscience, to neighbour; so also, to fairness and justice etc. Such built-in . . . thus, universal . . . law is not invented by parliaments, kings or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such; they are recognised, often implicitly as an indelible part of our evident nature. Hence, “natural law,” coeval with our humanity, famously phrased in terms of “self-evident . . . rights . . . endowed by our Creator” in the US Declaration of Independence, 1776. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice, the pivot of law. The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly aquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right. Likewise, Aristotle long since anticipated Pilate’s cynical “what is truth?”: truth says of what is, that it is; and of what is not, that it is not. [Metaphysics, 1011b, C4 BC.] Simple in concept, but hard to establish on the ground; hence — in key part — the duties to right reason, prudence, fairness etc. Thus, too, we may compose sound civil law informed by that built-in law of our responsibly, rationally free morally governed nature; from such, we may identify what is unsound or false thus to be reformed or replaced even though enacted under the colour and solemn ceremonies of law. The first duties, also, are a framework for understanding and articulating the corpus of built-in law of our morally governed nature, antecedent to civil laws and manifest our roots in the Supreme Law-giver, the inherently good, utterly wise and just creator-God, the necessary (so, eternal), maximally great being at the root of reality.

    7] ON TROLLERY: Going forward, we need serious, thoughtful contribution in the face of an existential crisis of civilisation. Due note of puerile trollery and associated distractors should therefore be taken. Note, there is a widespread concern that there is a lot of outright paid trollery afoot [and frankly, too much of the dominant media pattern is little more than trollery writ large], though ideologically driven volunteers can be just as bad. Trolls are part of the problem, not of the solution. And, going forward is absolutely pivotal at this point of crisis.

    KD

  255. 255
    kairosfocus says:

    Vivid, WJM and Jerry, thanks. KF

  256. 256
    kairosfocus says:

    ES58, Solomon is highlighting another far-fluctuation anomaly problem. There are many, the objectors get away with such because of widespread innumeracy. I add, multiplied by the enabling behaviour of the dominant narrative, agit prop media. KF

  257. 257

    I think I gave people ample opportunity to answer my question about how we deal with the 20+ million armed, angry citizens who no longer believe we have free and fair elections.

    It’s glaringly obvious what the first thing to do is. It’s been glaringly obvious ever since the day after the election: a full, transparent, independent forensic audit of the election, and laws to reform the election process to better prevent even the question or appearance of fraud. Any reasonable person, who was primarily interested in free, fair elections and the faith of the people in the process, and not just interested in grabbing power (or taking it away from their opponents by any means necessary,) would insist on this.

    It’s what we did when people believed, even erroneously as it turned out, that Trump colluded with Russia to win the election. There were four full investigations, including a special prosecutor, that investigated it for years. No one here even suggested such an investigation even though there is far more evidence for voter fraud than there ever turned up, even after the investigations, for Russia collusion.

  258. 258
    kairosfocus says:

    WJM, actually, an audit is on the table that would rapidly clarify the true state of the pivotal mail-in ballots; Mr Pulitzer’s kinematic artifacts scan. 70+ machines in a few hours would readily produce a decisive result. The vote of the GA Judicial subcommittee to do such a scan on the midnight ballots has been stonewalled and there has been ballot shredding as reported. In addition an innocuous confidential conference phone call to try to get the matter resolved, under aegis of a court action was surreptitiously taped and trumpeted as an accusation through selective clipping and slanderous twisting. A protest that got out of hand has been twisted into accusations of attempted coup — contrast how riots for months were reported and previous invasions of legislator’s spaces. Such are the patterns of guilty mind and are tantamount to confession, as I previously noted. It is morally certain that there was material election fraud and that effectively uncontrolled mail-in ballots, 3rd party ballot harvesting and scrutineer frustration etc have been the heart of it. The unwillingness to deal with such a devastating breakdown of election integrity, joined to attempted pretence that all is well apart from a certain scapegoat and his despised followers is diagnostic of a McFaul, dirty colour revolution. There is now talk of obvious show trials . . . i.e., obvious scapegoating . . . and of another impeachment. Power seizure like that is not done to play around, so across this year, we will see the strategic decision as far more than 20 millions rise up with grim resolve to withdraw consent of the governed and try to restore a legitimate political order. The geostrategic consequences and costs will be awful but it looks like such cannot now be averted. KF

    PS: Lurking beneath all, is deep blood guilt over the holocaust of the unborn, the corrosive evil that has warped and corrupted essentially all institutions of influence and power, for decades. Thosecwho imagine they have won obviously don’t recognise that they have only demonstrated the magnitude of the problem and that it is an existential threat to liberty and life.

  259. 259
    kairosfocus says:

    PPS: Mr Bongino, formerly Secret Service, responds:

    https://www.wnd.com/2021/01/bongino-tells-hannity-mob-threatened-white-house-media-made-jokes/

    Bongino recalls: When left-wing mob threatened White House, media made jokes
    Former Secret Service agent calls out double standard
    Bob Unruh By Bob Unruh
    Published January 7, 2021 at 4:33pm

    Following Wednesday’s riot at the U.S. Capitol, in which police officers shot and killed one woman and three other people died with medical issues, President Trump and his supporters were widely condemned.

    There were calls for long prison terms for anyone caught in the Capitol and demands that Trump be removed from office.

    But earlier this year, when Trump was threatened by violence from leftist mobs, media figures made jokes, recalled political commentator Dan Bongino in an interview Wednesday night with Fox News host Sean Hannity.

    He recalled the situation last May, during the riots prompted by the death of George Floyd, when Secret Service officials took Trump to a secure location because of the threats from mobs outside the White House.

    The president was in the “bunker” for only a short time. But the Associated Press said it happened because law enforcement struggled to contain the violent crowds at Lafayette Park.

    Bongino pointed to the “media hypocrisy.”

    “We have roundly condemned the violence tonight on this network, everyone, period. Where was the media, Sean, when my Secret Service friends were calling me, with a mob outside of the White House during the summer of protest, who were genuinely in fear for the first time?” he asked.

    “I am not kidding, this is not a joke, I was on the receiving end of those calls. They felt like there was a chance the White House could fall that night. Where was the media the next day? They were making fun of President Trump for being evacuated by his security detail, not his choice, into the bunker. That was their narrative the next day.

    Bongino asked where the mass condemnations were at that time.

    “The answer is it wasn’t there,” he said. “It became an opportunity to take out Trump. Because why? There isn’t one guiding set of principles in this country. And that why the media tonight, while we’re condemning the violence, is obsessed that we don’t mention an autopsy of how we got here because of their role in it . . . .

    Bongino said the “only people freaking out tonight are the people without principles.”

    He is right, and this is yet another sign of what has been going on.

    KF

    PS: What happened a few days ago with what started out as a protest rally of it seems hundreds of thousandswas ill-expressed but can properly be seen as a mass, predominantly peaceful protest and plea for redress of grievances; concerns for cause over evident election fraud. Unfortunately for those who will pay the price across the world, the folly of a minority who rioted then opened up a well oiled agit prop gambit to project accusations of attempted coup. The underlying reality still stands and the problem with such a breach of election integrity thus enabling fraud, is those who become accessories after the fact simply compound the problem of fraud. Until it is honestly, soberly faced, investigated and reformed from, the US Federal Government’s basic legitimacy is being drastically eroded. Given punting by courts, they are not excepted. As for the narrative, agit prop media, I think the credibility injury is in the end mortal.

  260. 260
    kairosfocus says:

    AS2, the phrasings in the short second speech are characteristically Trumpian. Your projection fails. KF

  261. 261
    Bob O'H says:

    es58 @ 250 – what’s his data? Where does it come from? He doesn’t explain the source of his data, so it’s not not possible to validate it. It might be utterly irrelevant, but we can’t tell.

  262. 262
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: It looks like the vultures are already moving geostrategically:

    https://www.wnd.com/2021/01/iran-starts-20-uranium-enrichment-seizes-s-korean-flagged-tanker/

    Iran starts 20% uranium enrichment, seizes S. Korean-flagged tanker
    Biggest breach so far of 2015 nuclear deal threshold
    WND News Services By WND News Services
    Published January 7, 2021 at 3:26pm

    (FRANCE24) – Iran on Monday said it started enriching uranium up to 20% purity at its Fordow facility, in its biggest breach of a 2015 nuclear deal threshold as state media acknowledged that Tehran seized a South Korean-flagged oil tanker in the Strait of Hormuz.

    “The process for producing 20 percent enriched uranium has started at Shahid Alimohammadi enrichment complex (Fordow),” said Iranian government spokesman Ali Rabiei in a statement posted on the website of the state broadcaster.

    Iranian President Hassan Rouhani ordered the enrichment “in recent days”, and “the gas injection process started as of hours ago,” the statement noted . . .

    Lost in the narrative drumbeat, of course.

    Ask yourself what an Iran moving to nukes implies for the ME. Ponder, global impact.

    KF

    PS: I trust LT et al can begin to see some of my context of analysis. I will add my 2016 geostrategic sketch to the discussion on colour revolution, 4th gen war etc.

  263. 263
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: A media call for “cleansing” of Trump supporters:

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/washington-secrets/abc-demands-cleansing-trump-movement-from-america

    ABC demands ‘cleansing’ Trump movement from America
    by Paul Bedard, Washington Secrets Columnist |
    | January 07, 2021 02:14 PM

    Beware, 75 million Trump voters.

    The media is calling for your ideological “cleansing” of Trump thought.

    In a column and tweet, ABC’s well-respected political director Rick Klein made the call after yesterday’s pro-Trump riots inside the halls of Congress . . . .

    “Even aside from impeachment and 25th Amendment talk, Trump will be an ex-president in 13 days. The fact is that getting rid of Trump is the easy part,” Klein wrote in his popular blog.

    “Cleansing the movement he commands, or getting rid of what he represents to so many Americans, is going to be something else,” he added, drawing comments that it sounded too much like Hitler.

    UPDATE: After this story posted, the tweet was deleted and the story wording changed. The “Cleansing” paragraph reads, “Cleaning up the movement he commands, or getting rid of what he represents to so many Americans, is going to be something else.”

    Several media outlets and liberals have previously called for the creation of a “list” of Trump aides to be targeted and blackballed from jobs . . .

    “Cleansing,” echoes “thought reform,” the more precise rendering of “brainwashing.” It also brings to mind the ethnic cleansing of the 1990’s in the Balkans and where that led to.

    While retraction is there, we need to ask pointed questions on why we are seeing thought like this and worse already.

    KF

    PS, LT, are you going to walk back your snide dismissiveness on scapegoating and targetting, above?

    PPS, JVL, do you now see the difference between empty talk-points or catch phrases or oh it’s anyone who disagrees with you and argument from specific evidence? (Do you want me to go to previous threads and pull up specific further cases?)

  264. 264
    kairosfocus says:

    BO’H, Solomon explicitly says and shows that he is using precinct level data on the election, which is accessible online. He is using Libre Office Calc Spreadsheets, and is doing analysis on ratios, compared to the pattern of N with GCD as you Americans call HCF, especially the incidence of 1 as HCF, then 2 on up. KF

    PS: Click https://youtu.be/7BWrakxOoLs and go to the uploader comment section, which starts: >>Natural Distributions of GCD’s for a Candidate (numerator) divided by the Total Number of Votes (denominator) in a Precinct: https://www.desmos.com/calculator/1jg… In this spreadsheet go to “GCD4” sheet. >>

  265. 265
    ET says:

    Sven Mil is an imbecile. President Trump did more for the USA in 4 years than Biden has in 47.

    The lefties rioted, burned and looted in DC for days. The righties didn’t loot nor burn any businesses nor churches.

    The lefties are clueless liars. Even Biden and Harris have started their lie-parade. The next 4 years are going to be very bad for the USA. I can’t see two pathological liars like Biden and Harris bringing the country together.

  266. 266
    Bob O'H says:

    kf.- yes, I know he’s using precinct-level data, but the spreadsheet he makes available is not the raw data, and it also appears not to be the final data, but data as it came into somewhere. So where, exactly, did he get the data from?

    (BTW I’m not an American, and I don’t know what you mean by GCD or HCF. They’re not TLAs that I’m familiar with)

  267. 267
    ET says:

    And LarTanner is also an ignorant coward. That alleged charlatan did more for the USA in 4 years than Biden has in 47 or Obama in 8. The democrats impeached Trump based on lies and BS. They are the pathetic side. Blue States sent sick elderly back to nursing homes and then thousands of elderly died needlessly. And don’t get me started over the summer’s anarchy.

  268. 268
    kairosfocus says:

    BO’H, HCF is highest common factor, GCD greatest common divisor. The precinct level data is there and it does not have to be ultimate state to be relevant. He has obviously fed it into spreadsheets and is using sorting functions even as he calculates live. KF

  269. 269
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: not so oldies but baddies from the Summer when the shoe was on the other foot https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2021/01/07/heres-a-video-compilation-of-the-media-and-nancy-pelosi-reacting-to-fiery-but-peaceful-protests-earlier-this-year/ A telling double standard is patent. KF

  270. 270
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: and is doing analysis on ratios, compared to the pattern of N with GCD as you Americans call HCF, especially the incidence of 1 as HCF, then 2 on up. KF

    And what does that tell you regarding this data?

    “1 as HCF” . . . since 1 is always a common factor between integers why start there?

  271. 271
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, what happens when two numbers only have 1 as their common factor, thus their highest common factor? Are they then not M—– P —–? Where, naturally occurring numbers resulting from a multitude of underlying factors some one way others another, for a big enough span, can be reasonably expected to reflect the patterns of the naturals. The result is the now commonplace observation that instead we have an implausible, far fluctuation pattern. KF

  272. 272
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: JVL, what happens when two numbers only have 1 as their common factor, thus their highest common factor? Are they then not M—– P —–?

    Yes, they are mutually prime but what does that have to do with the data being discussed?

    Where, naturally occurring numbers resulting from a multitude of underlying factors some one way others another, for a big enough span, can be reasonably expected to reflect the patterns of the naturals.

    You’re not making any sense. You’re looking at ratios of votes for a candidate (the numerator) divided by the total number of votes cast (the denominator). What does the HCF (or GCD) have to do with anything?

    The patterns of the naturals? Which pattern(s)?

    The result is the now commonplace observation that instead we have an implausible, far fluctuation pattern.

    Which has what to do with HCF/GCD exactly? What does finding the GCD of votes cast for different candidates tell you?

    Suppose: Candidate A gets 67 votes in their local Bridge Club election for President. Candidate B gets 134 votes. Candidate C gets 202 votes.

    What does the GCD of those values (in pairs and together) tell you?

  273. 273
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, by your admission you are versed in Mathematics, and there is a video immediately on the table. Surely, you know that there are patterns in the naturals, part of number theory, which leads to statistics of numbers and of selections that are natural or artificial. Surely, you are familiar with the concept that voting patterns and many other phenomena reflect influences of multiple circumstances, leading to expected patterns and distributions around such. Where, surely you know the law of large numbers which makes your attempt to use three probably arbitrary values into a fallacy of manipulation of the one not familiar with the premise that for a lot of things we want 20 – 30 values from a population to have initial confidence we are seeing a pattern; 1,000 persons used to be the gold standard for US opinion surveys, yielding a typical +/- 3% confidence band. There are apparently hundreds to thousands of precincts in a US State. Thus issues of distributions and patterns are highly relevant, with statistical signatures of natural vs artificial patterns. The phenomenon Mr Solomon raised is yet another far fluctuation from the expectation issue, and so far as I can see he has a point. If you think he is wrong, kindly show why on the pattern. KF

  274. 274
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: VL, by your admission you are versed in Mathematics,

    I know a few things.

    Surely, you know that there are patterns in the naturals, part of number theory, which leads to statistics of numbers and of selections that are natural or artificial.

    Such as? Are the patterns of natural numbers applicable or reflective of votes? What about votes in areas with large minority populations?

    Surely, you are familiar with the concept that voting patterns and many other phenomena reflect influences of multiple circumstances, leading to expected patterns and distributions around such.

    Such as? What does the GCD have to do with this?

    Where, surely you know the law of large numbers which makes your attempt to use three probably arbitrary values into a fallacy of manipulation of the one not familiar with the premise that for a lot of things we want 20 – 30 values from a population to have initial confidence we are seeing a pattern; 1,000 persons used to be the gold standard for US opinion surveys, yielding a typical +/- 3% confidence band.

    Actually, I picked those numbers carefully. Anyway, that last sentence still does not answer the question: what does the GCD have to do with anything?

    There are apparently hundreds to thousands of precincts in a US State. Thus issues of distributions and patterns are highly relevant, with statistical signatures of natural vs artificial patterns.

    You have to compare like to like. You cannot compare a distribution or ‘pattern’ in the natural numbers or in naturally occurring values with human generated data like number of votes.

    The phenomenon Mr Solomon raised is yet another far fluctuation from the expectation issue, and so far as I can see he has a point. If you think he is wrong, kindly show why on the pattern.

    I’m waiting for you to answer the question on the table first: what does the GCD of numbers of votes cast for different candidates tell you? If the GCD was 2 is that more or less significant than if the GCD was 7 or 35?

  275. 275
    Bob O'H says:

    kf @ 268 –

    The precinct level data is there and it does not have to be ultimate state to be relevant. He has obviously fed it into spreadsheets and is using sorting functions even as he calculates live.

    Yes, the precinct data is somewhere, but apparently it’s not the final data. And once he’s sorted the data, it becomes even more difficult to work out what it is. This is why the data source is important. If precincts were updating every 10-20 votes, then we would expect a lot to have the same ratio, just by chance. But unless one has the original data, one cannot work out how large this chance is. Just saying “the data isn’t there” isn’t enough.

  276. 276
    LarTanner says:

    As I mentioned back in #228, America has a mechanism for sifting through evidence and assessing wrongdoing.

    Dominion sues pro-Trump lawyer Sidney Powell, seeking more than $1.3 billion

    Dominion Voting Systems on Friday filed a defamation lawsuit against lawyer Sidney Powell, demanding more than $1.3 billion in damages for havoc it says Powell has caused by spreading “wild” and “demonstrably false” allegations, including that Dominion played a central role in a fantastical scheme to steal the 2020 election from President Trump.

    For weeks, Powell has claimed that Dominion was established with communist money in Venezuela to enable ballot-stuffing and other vote manipulation, and that those abilities were harnessed to rig the election for former vice president Joe Biden.

    In a 124-page complaint filed in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia, Dominion said its reputation and resale value have been deeply damaged by a “viral disinformation campaign” that Powell mounted “to financially enrich herself, to raise her public profile, and to ingratiate herself to Donald Trump.” The defendants named in the lawsuit include Powell, her law firm and Defending the Republic, the organization she set up to solicit donations to support her election-related litigation.

  277. 277
    kairosfocus says:

    LT, Dominion et al simply open up discovery. I suspect their attributions of motive are defamatory. KF

  278. 278
    LarTanner says:

    Also in law and consequences:

    Internet Detectives Are Identifying Scores of Pro-Trump Rioters at the Capitol. Some Have Already Been Fired.

    The moral: don’t get involved in an insurrection without understanding the repercussions of your actions.

  279. 279
    JVL says:

    LarsTanner: The moral: don’t get involved in an insurrection without understanding the repercussions of your actions.

    And you probably shouldn’t take selfies when you’re trashing the US capitol and then publish them on social media.

  280. 280
    kairosfocus says:

    BO’H, the least likely case is that the data are made up. Also, the results will work with not yet complete data. KF

  281. 281
    LarTanner says:

    Based on this Bloomberg report, Jerry and KF should be pretty excited because Powell may get to argue her voter fraud claims are true:

    Fox News, Newsmax and OAN all broadcast on-air clarifications distancing themselves from Powell’s claims. Dominion’s retraction demands were followed by a wider round of letters that also went to individuals including right-wing commentators Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity, Trump-allied lawyers like Lin Wood and White House Counsel Pat Cipollone asking them to preserve evidence for possible future litigation.

    Despite being dropped from the campaign legal team, Powell’s claims were largely embraced by Trump himself. She continued to advise the president informally and was invited to the White House for several meetings in December. Trump suggested naming her as a Justice Department special counsel to investigate voter-fraud allegations.

    Dominion’s lawsuit puts Powell in the difficult position of needing to convince a judge that her allegedly false claims are actually true, since doing so would be the best possible defense in a defamation suit [Emphasis added].

  282. 282
    AndyClue says:

    @LarTanner:

    So much for

    My bet is they will threaten (to marginalise and “contain” the claims through intimidating others who don’t have the direct evidence) but will not sue Ms Powell. KF

    Btw. did anyone sue Dominion?

  283. 283
    ET says:

    If America has a mechanism for sifting through the evidence and finding wrongdoing then why is evolutionism still being taught in public school science classes?

  284. 284
    kairosfocus says:

    Folks,

    notice, first, what’s being tiptoed around. Take due note, that’s what is being distracted from.

    AS2:

    Dominion is ill-advised to sue, though they may imagine the momentum is with them given how furiously the agit prop is spinning just now. In the end, big mistake.

    LT:

    Time will tell.

    JVL:

    The “insurrection” slander will blow back. It is a mark of desperation, showing how thin the smear is.

    All someone needs to blow it up is to see what was happening with far worse rioting across the summer.

    KF

  285. 285
    jerry says:

    Jerry and KF should be pretty excited because Powell may get to argue her voter fraud claims are true:

    An example of imagining incorrectly what others are thinking or believe. I’m not a fan of Sidney Powell. At first I was interested in what she might have but saw she never produced anything concrete.

    The fraud lies in CTCL efforts that got mail ballots accepted by the tens of millions with little or no controls.

  286. 286
    jerry says:

    Aside: I don’t personally approve of the breaking in to the Capitol chambers. But the reaction to it is a thousand times worse than the actual break-in.

    Video of Capitol police opening doors so protestors could enter Capitol building orderly.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/christina_bobb/status/1347596278583197698

    This was the year the Fake News became so powerful they could tell you there was definitely no election fraud because you aren’t allowed to check. And it worked.

    Scott Adams

  287. 287
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: The “insurrection” slander will blow back. It is a mark of desperation, showing how thin the smear is. All someone needs to blow it up is to see what was happening with far worse rioting across the summer.

    I’m still waiting for you to explain what the GCD/HCF has to do with detecting some kinds of patterns in voting. For example: is a GCD of 2 or 7 more significant?

    You can answer the question can’t you?

  288. 288
    LarTanner says:

    Video of Capitol police opening doors so protestors could enter Capitol building orderly.

    Awesome. Now show the video of the people not getting killed.

  289. 289
    asauber says:

    Jerry,

    I fault the Capitul Police there for not handing out the promised snack bags. 🙂

    Andrew

  290. 290
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, you are playing at side-track, I have simply pointed out to ES58 what the argument is about, far fluctuations on data. There is a whole series of videos and papers, spreadsheets etc, if you are genuinely interested. I have pointed out that the core case was established on public facts showing knowing undermining of election integrity then pushing in effectively uncontrolled mail-in ballots, 3rd party ballot harvesting and scrutineer frustration, which irretrievably tainted the election. Near as I can see not even videotape of the taint in progress moves you so we know the issue is not evidence. Further to this, the gadgetry was shown to be tainted by direct inspection of the Antrim county machine software, which you and others refused to acknowledge. The kinematic artifacts motion in GA met with stonewalling, a direct demonstration by acts of guilty mind. Statistical, far fluctuation anomalies — key to a lot of hypothesis testing and to statistical thermodynamics alike — you must be familiar with, that is red flag and secondary, circumstantial evidence that carries the same message. The cumulative weight of whistleblowers and affiants backs all of this up. The conclusion is material fraud to moral certainty but only severe pain will break strong enough hyperskepticism and/or indoctrination and/or ideological commitment. That pain is coming, pressed down, shaken together and running over. Whoever had the bright idea to corner an undefeated western people, confronting them with an existential threat? KF

  291. 291
    LarTanner says:

    That pain is coming, pressed down, shaken together and running over. Whoever had the bright idea to corner an undefeated western people, confronting them with an existential threat?

    Is this supposed to mean that you expect more (and more frequent) infiltrations of Government agencies and offices by American militia and terrorist groups?

  292. 292
    kairosfocus says:

    LT, shame on you, a young woman, involved in an unwise situation, unarmed, was shot in the neck and mortally wounded on live cam video; shot from point blank range by an officer who is going to have a lot of explaining to do. Your ghoulish thinly veiled comment just above shows a want of basic respect to a grieving family, alongside a lot of outright gloating commentary out there that exposes outright hate. Do you even begin to understand what you are helping to tee up? KF

  293. 293
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: you are playing at side-track, I have simply pointed out to ES58 what the argument is about, far fluctuations on data.

    If you are going to use an argument to uphold your view then it’s good if you understand what the argument is saying otherwise you are at the mercy of the person who initially made the argument. That is to say: how do you know the argument is correct? So, following on from a statement you made I asked you a comprehension question. Which you will not or can not answer. It makes me wonder if you really understand the mathematics.

    There is a whole series of videos and papers, spreadsheets etc, if you are genuinely interested.

    Well, I don’t see what the GCD/HCF of the number of votes has to do with the argument. Can you explain that?

    I have pointed out that the core case was established on public facts showing knowing undermining of election integrity then pushing in effectively uncontrolled mail-in ballots, 3rd party ballot harvesting and scrutineer frustration, which irretrievably tainted the election.

    Nothing to do with my question.

    Near as I can see not even videotape of the taint in progress moves you so we know the issue is not evidence. Further to this, the gadgetry was shown to be tainted by direct inspection of the Antrim county machine software, which you and others refused to acknowledge.

    Nothing to do with my question.

    The kinematic artifacts motion in GA met with stonewalling, a direct demonstration by acts of guilty mind. Statistical, far fluctuation anomalies — key to a lot of hypothesis testing and to statistical thermodynamics alike — you must be familiar with, that is red flag and secondary, circumstantial evidence that carries the same message

    I do know something about such things. But I don’t see what the GCD of voting results has to do with it. Can you explain that?

    The cumulative weight of whistleblowers and affiants backs all of this up. The conclusion is material fraud to moral certainty but only severe pain will break strong enough hyperskepticism and/or indoctrination and/or ideological commitment.

    You’re not even attempting to answer my question. Maybe you can’t . . .

    That pain is coming, pressed down, shaken together and running over. Whoever had the bright idea to corner an undefeated western people, confronting them with an existential threat?

    Not the question I was asking. Can you answer my question: yes or no?

  294. 294
    Steve Alten2 says:

    Between May 1 and November 28, 2020, authorities were more than twice as likely to attempt to break up and disperse a left-wing protest 1 than a right-wing 2 one. And in those situations when law enforcement chose to intervene, they were more likely to use force — 34 percent of the time with right-wing protests compared with 51 percent of the time for the left. Given when this data was collected, it predominantly reflects a difference in how police respond to Black Lives Matter, compared with how they respond to anti-mask demonstrations, pro-Trump extremists, QAnon rallies, and militia groups.”.

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-polices-tepid-response-to-the-capitol-breach-wasnt-an-aberration/

  295. 295
    kairosfocus says:

    LT, you are setting up and knocking over strawmen of your own projection. Do you realise that such projection to the despised other is tantamount to confession i/l/o cognitive dissonance? That is, you know that what has happened is treacherous and subversive, election fraud. You know that those who have suffered a treacherous attack and face an existential threat — undermining peaceful, credible elections by fraud — will come back with grim resolve and will not stop until the threat is decisively broken. But of course, its the Poles who attacked our radio stations. Of course the Russians were building up an attack. KF

  296. 296
    asauber says:

    Steve Alten2,

    Not only was it not an aberration, it was Big Business as usual shortly thereafter the Big Gov’t was Overthrown by Big Buffalo-Hat Guy.

    Andrew

  297. 297
    LarTanner says:

    KF, spare me your little tut-tut virtue signaling. My report says 5 people died as a result of the pro-Trump capitol riot, and Trump himself has the blood on his hands.

    Now, I asked you what exactly your statement was supposed to mean. If I have it wrong, then set it right. What exactly does it mean that “That pain is coming, pressed down, shaken together and running over. Whoever had the bright idea to corner an undefeated western people, confronting them with an existential threat?”

    Are you making some sort of real point or just swooning over your own rhetoric?

  298. 298
    Steve Alten2 says:

    The Trump incited riot caused five deaths, one shot by police, one officer dying as the result of injuries and three resulting from medical emergencies, one possibly the result of a heart attack of a rioter who accidentally tasered himself.

    And thanks to the anti-masking mentality (Moronity) of Trumpsters, many of them are being identified and charged.

  299. 299
    asauber says:

    Steve Alten2

    Sounds terrible and like a slow weekend in Chicago.

    Andrew

  300. 300
    asauber says:

    But you know. we were in the hands of Freaky Despots there for awhile. Glad we made it somehow.

    Andrew

  301. 301
  302. 302
    ET says:

    So there weren’t any antifa counter-protesters there? Really? You lefties are delusional cowards, as always. You losers rioted and looted in DC for how many days in May and June? How many businesses were looted and burned by the left just mere months ago across the USA?

    It isn’t Trump’s fault that the people understand the election was rigged. The people know the consequences of democrats having full control- well at least 71 million of us do. The rest want to find out the hard way.

  303. 303
    LarTanner says:

    Watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd4GWVyF5dg and take due warning. KF

    You seriously want people to waste more than an hour of their lives to watch Episode 641 of “Steve Bannon’s War Room”? A taste of the comments:

    The Deep State PLANNED AND STAGED THE VIOLENCE WITH ANTIFA. PELOSI SHOULD BE ARRESTED FOR TREASON.

    Deep state, all caps.

    Nobel Peace Prize for Pres. Trump. He deserves it.

    If I recall, Trump did get the Noble Peace Price, which included a $15 Burger King gift certificate.

    Barack and Michelle Obama are evangelists for the dark side

    This person seems to think we live in a Star Wars movie.

    Storm is coming….
    We all had faith in Pence to come good, do the right thing and dispel all his past sins but he showed his true colours(blue tie).
    The President still has aces in his deck of cards..
    Read between the lines…
    He is still the President of the United States of America.

    The blue tie was a signal, you see. It’s all a conspiracy.

    All of this is leading up to the great tribulation that Jesus spoke of, and then climaxes to Jehovah’s great day Armageddon (Matthew24:21 Revelation 16:14-16).Now is the time to reconcile yourselves to our father and creator Jehovah God Almighty (Psalm83:18 Exodus6:3 Revelation 4:11 John17:3).Jehovah (YHWH) God has promised everlasting life on a paradise earth (a new righteous society of people) for all who obey Him and His son Jesus Christ (John17:3 Psalm37:9-11,29 Matthew5:5 Matthew 7:21).Give your allegiance to Jehovah’s Kingdom (theocratic heavenly government) the one that Jesus told us to pray for, because very soon it’s going to destroy Satan’s system and all who support it! (Matthew 6:10 Daniel 2:44 Revelation 16:14-16)

    Boogedy-boo!

    President Trump, if you even read these comments, we believe it would be a great idea to hold a rally on Jan 20th and ignore Steve, these people are what they are. I would say young Deplorable Americans had a taste of what a great President is and what could be. They also by seeing people for what they really are have received the best education possible.

    Good idea!

    I’m starting to think Trump was in on it the whole time what now all of a sudden it’s over and he was asking for all them contributions and it just seems like now all of a sudden he gives up it’s time for war

    Another layer to the conspiracy.

    KF, thanks for the video recommendation, but I think I’ll pass. Maybe you should try listening to NPR now and again?

  304. 304
    kairosfocus says:

    LT, SA2, your onward comments show the same pattern. First, one unarmed person was shot at close hand, mortally wounded. The contrast to what was being said across several months speaks, tellingly. Next, it seems there has been a dispute over whether an officer died, why if so. Three died in medical emergencies, which is sad but not comparable. There is no good reason to claim incitement, that is telling projection. Further to this, we cannot but note the ducking of the pivotal issue of substance, evident election fraud. You were repeatedly challenged, to address such evidence starting here https://hereistheevidence.com/ . That you ducked the material issue to project accusations says all we need to know on the actual balance on merits; you have no cogent answer but wish to project to the despised other, above even stepping over the line. The conclusion is that you are enabling fraud. Duly noted, for cause. KF

    PS: You would have benefitted from Professor Eastmond’s remarks but of course the above is demonstration that you have closed your mind and tanked up on hostile projection.

  305. 305
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: Next, it seems there has been a dispute over whether an officer died, why if so.

    No, there is no dispute about that. Shame on you.

    Hunt for the MAGA cop killer: Feds launch murder probe into death of Trump-supporting Capitol cop who was ‘hit over the head with a fire extinguisher’ as hundreds of officers line the streets in tribute and Capitol flags fly at half-staff
    Brian D. Sicknick, 42, died in the hospital on Thursday night a day after the MAGA mob riot
    He was hit with a fire extinguisher while ‘engaging’ with the mob on Wednesday on Capitol Hill

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9124461/US-Capitol-Police-officer-DIES-following-MAGA-mob-riots-Congress-marking-FIFTH-death.html

  306. 306
    Steve Alten2 says:

    Kairosfocus “ First, one unarmed person was shot at close hand, mortally wounded.

    We all agree that this is a tragedy. But have you seen the video? There were officers who are tasked to protect the legislators and the property on one side of the door, and an unknown number of rioters on the other side smashing the doors down.

    Who’s responsible? The cop? He/she will probably suffer serious consequences, and that is probably appropriate. I think it is fair to say that he/she used poor judgment. The overall police response? Yes, their early lack of enforcement probably made it worse. Trump? Without his rhetoric, hyperbole, divisive language and unsupported claims of fraud, this young lady would still be alive.

    True leaders think about everyone else before themselves. They think about the potential consequences of their words and actions. With cause, Trump is incapable of this.

  307. 307
    Bob O'H says:

    Jerry @ 286 –

    Aside: I don’t personally approve of the breaking in to the Capitol chambers. But the reaction to it is a thousand times worse than the actual break-in.

    Five people died as a result of the break-in, including one policeman who was there doing his duty.

  308. 308
    LarTanner says:

    KF,
    I am not going to get spun up on election fraud because of some biased dude’s “here is the evidence” website. Here’s what I know:

    (1) All 50 states and the District of Columbia have certified their election results.
    (2) The U.S. Congress finalized these results.
    (3) By the results, Biden won 306 electoral votes and the popular vote.
    (4) There is no evidence that voter fraud affected the outcome of the election.
    (5) Election officials in every state have said there was no sign of significant voter fraud during the voting process.
    (6) The Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency and its election partners called the 2020 election “the most secure in American history.”
    (7) Former Attorney General William Barr said the Justice Department had uncovered no evidence of widespread fraud, and Barr reiterated that point before his resignation.

    I am sticking with this view of reality. Now, maybe that Dominion suit introduces something that should change my mind. At least in a court of law, we have a forum where the plaintiff and defendant are subject to something like the same rules. And remember, Sidney Powell is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Were she to be unable to convince a judge of the truth of her claims, then that would be something we all would need to take note of. Perhaps you don’t care much for Powell or her Kraken claims, but surely if there is “evident election fraud” of any sort, then it belongs in court versus the street.

    Let me ask: do you hold Trump and his enablers in the GOP and the media accountable for anything? Do you or your fellow travelers ever get any part of it wrong? Or, is your deeply-held position that I (and others) actually have zero valid points, arguments, and perspectives?

    I don’t expect a straightforward answer from you — though maybe you’ll surprise me — but I have always been curious about whether you guys are so gobsmacked as to believe that the “despised other,” as you like to say, is universally incorrect.

  309. 309
    jerry says:

    including one policeman who was there doing his duty

    Unfortunate indeed! But who to blame:

    Trump, certainly for his words.
    The Congress that was installing an illegal government
    The Police commissioner for not having enough police for such a large crowd and who refused extra help
    The police themselves for letting them in the perimeter and then in the building.
    Definitely the rioters themselves.
    The press who had been lying to the public for years

    Lot of blame to go around. However, the real culprits will never admit blame.

    But I am glad you are concerned about people dying unnecessarily.

  310. 310
    ET says:

    Stevie is clueless. Voter fraud has been found. And the divisive language came from the politicians when Trump, and outsider started winning the Republican primary. The non-stop, infantile hatred spewed by the loser Democrats at Trump for over 4 years proves that party is unfit for governing.

  311. 311
    kairosfocus says:

    AS2 & JVL, okay, that death is now confirmed, another needless tragedy. KF

  312. 312
    kairosfocus says:

    LT,

    your projection of bias against a serious compilation of evidence is duly noted. For record, the compilation (with its links to specifics) stands: https://hereistheevidence.com/

    Further to this, I note yet again the baseline regarding public facts:

    The Failed Moral Duty Challenge:

    First, all relevant officials and connected persons have a main duty to ensure integrity of elections, and know or should acknowledge the potential for fraud and what it can mean. [–> almost self-evident] Therefore, neglect on a systemic basis is only partly negligence, it becomes in material part a strong sign of wrongful intent. [–> refusal to do due diligence and known duty are signs of tort] In the case of the US and a relevant party, in Feb 1994, the NYT published a front page, just below fold article [see, 1273 first previous thread] on a judge’s reversal of an election outcome and of majority in a legislature in PA, due to fraud connected to a known vulnerable type of ballot and to harvesting, intimidation etc. [–> public fact 1] Ten years later in 2004, The US congress received testimony on fraud in the Ukraine [see, U/D 17, first previous thread] that further amplified such techniques. [ –> public fact 2] So, systemic ignorance cannot be responsibly pleaded and indeed is discredited. [–> public duty, the media have a duty of reporting such to the public and of giving a true and fair view of the circumstances] Accordingly there were just on these cases sixteen to twenty six years to purge the said party of such a taint [–> direct implication of the duty and necessarily known fact, with some Arithmetic], but instead this year excuse of a pandemic was taken [–> public fact 3] to multiply opportunity and means for similar fraud. [–> the injection of the destabilising element, here judged on its known likely consequence: [1] effectively uncontrolled mail-in ballots on an industrial scale, [2] 3rd party ballot harvesting, [3] deliberate frustration of effective scrutineering, breaking chains of transparency and control on validity, joined to [4] fraud-conducive election gadgetry as has been demonstrated on videos shown in the immediately previous OP and recorded based on tests and competent witness] This is a moral duty demonstration of wrongful intent [–> refusal to do duty, to one’s advantage] and shifts or should shift our common sense evaluation [–> in short, decisive on best explanation] of evidence [affidavits, anomalous patterns, disturbances to counts, frustration of proper scrutineering (ponder barriers erected to block even distant observation as has been circulated by images, not just reports of witnesses), surge in vulnerable ballots, single candidate ballots etc][–> list of evidence] to recognise these as consistent with [–> inferred best explanation] carrying out a morally demonstrated intent. [–> duty failure implies intent in such a case] This obtains whether or not sufficient weight can be amassed to lead courts to vacate suspect ballots [–> anticipates failure of the court system], or whether criminal charges can be brought against leading individuals. [–> given cases as the 30k emails on a server willfully set up outside the government] That common sense issue is also implicated in Federalist 68 [–> historical analysis, to which there has been little or no cogent response], etc so state legislatures may have a duty to act in face of a tainted election. [–> the US Constitutional assignment of responsibility] The implication, no you do not get a second round to try again, but responsible bodies take up from [and remedy] your failure can be taken as a built in deterrent effect. [–> inference, on the nature of the backstops] However moral fibre in our civilisation has long been progressively undermined for generations. [-> I here point to the impacts of the currents of thought over the past 300 or so years, including the rise of amoral, nihilistic philosophies and ideologies, leading to the ongoing holocaust of living posterity in the womb and the utterly corrosive implications of linked mass blood guilt]

    Beyond that, the stonewalling of Mr Pulitzer’s kinematic artifacts inspection and other signs indicate guilty mind in action, tantamount to confession. The intent and the act are established to moral certainty, on a decades long pattern of wrongful behaviour.

    Unless there is acknowledgement and genuine reform, there is no genuine credibility in elections going forward.

    On your specific comments:

    >>(1) All 50 states and the District of Columbia have certified their election results.
    (2) The U.S. Congress finalized these results.>>

    – yes, results of a tainted process, destabilised from an already substandard state by [1] effectively uncontrolled mail-in ballots on an industrial scale, [2] 3rd party ballot harvesting, [3] deliberate frustration of effective scrutineering, breaking chains of transparency and control on validity, joined to [4] fraud-conducive election gadgetry as has been demonstrated on videos shown in the immediately previous OP and recorded based on tests and competent witness

    – mere certification does not make those go away

    >>(3) By the results, Biden won 306 electoral votes and the popular vote.>>

    – by tainted results as already pointed out.

    >>(4) There is no evidence that voter fraud affected the outcome of the election.>>

    – a fallacy of selective hyperskepticism shown by biased dismissal and refusal to address substance.

    >>(5) Election officials in every state have said there was no sign of significant voter fraud during the voting process.>>

    – there is direct evidence to the contrary

    >>(6) The Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency and its election partners called the 2020 election “the most secure in American history.”>>

    – indeed, and so they discredit themselves in the face of evidence that will not go away.

    >>(7) Former Attorney General William Barr said the Justice Department had uncovered no evidence of widespread fraud, and Barr reiterated that point before his resignation.>>

    – Yes he did. Where such affirmations face the sheer weight of actual evidence. No authority, individual or collective, is better than facts and reasoning.

    – of course you have projected bias, dismissed without substantial engagement and hold no evidence.

    – over the next year, the consequences will emerge.

    KF

  313. 313
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: Excerpting, 1273 first previous thread (and yes, this is one of the 1600 points in the evidence compilation, a matter of undeniable public fact):

    https://uncommondescent.com/ud-newswatch-highlights/ud-live-event-us-election-nov-3-2020-predictions-tracking-live-projections-reflections-thoughts/#comment-717637

    >>1273
    kairosfocus
    November 20, 2020 at 2:57 am (Edit)

    F/N: Blast from the past, NYT Feb 19, 1994:

    https://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/19/us/vote-fraud-ruling-shifts-pennsylvania-senate.html?smid=tw-share

    Saying Philadelphia’s election system had collapsed under “a massive scheme” by Democrats to steal a State Senate election in November, a Federal judge today took the rare step of invalidating the vote and ordered the seat filled by the Republican candidate.

    In making such a sweeping move, the judge, Clarence C. Newcomer of Federal District Court here, did for the Republicans what the election had not: enable them to regain control of the State Senate, which they lost two years ago.

    Judge Newcomer ruled that the Democratic campaign of William G. Stinson had stolen the election from Bruce S. Marks in North Philadelphia’s Second Senatorial District through an elaborate fraud in which hundreds of residents were encouraged to vote by absentee ballot even though they had no legal reason — like a physical disability or a scheduled trip outside the city — to do so.

    In many instances, according to Republicans who testified during a four-day civil trial last week, Democratic campaign workers forged absentee ballots. On many of the ballots, they used the names of people who were living in Puerto Rico or serving time in prison, and in one case, the voter had been dead for some time.

    “Substantial evidence was presented establishing massive absentee ballot fraud, deception, intimidation, harassment and forgery,” Judge Newcomer wrote in a decision made public today.

    The district, which includes white, black and Hispanic neighborhoods, is overwhelmingly Democratic by registration. Nonetheless, campaign workers testified that widespread voter apathy had prompted them to promote a “new way to vote” to insure a victory. Door to Door for Votes . . . .

    “This is extraordinary relief,” Judge Newcomer wrote. “However, it is appropriate because extraordinary conduct by the Stinson campaign and the board tainted the entirety of the absentee ballots.” . . . .

    The judge decided to hear the case after state election officials and state courts rejected the Republicans’ claims. The Republicans have an appeal pending before the state’s highest court. They went to Federal court on the ground that there were violations of the Voting Rights Act and Civil Rights Act . . .

    An all too familiar pattern.>>

    KF

  314. 314
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: From U/D17 to first previous, on the Ukraine case, noting the McFaul colour revolution process and SOCOM insurgency escalator — both in the OP, both dismissed above without serious consideration. Onward, the parallels in the Egypt, Arab Spring case will also bear sober consideration:

    >>To focus attention, let us clip the list of election fraud techniques, c. 2004:

    Illegal Use of Absentee Ballots: According to the respected NGO “Committee of Voters of Ukraine” (CVU), massive electoral fraud was committed through the illegal use of absentee voter certificates. For example, people were caught in Dnipropetrovsk and Sumy oblasts with their pockets stuffed with blank absentee ballots that they were using to vote at multiple polling stations.
    Opposition Observers Ejected: Observers from Our Ukraine and other opposition groups were expelled from most polling stations in eastern Ukraine on Election Day. For example, in Territorial Election Commission (TEC) district number 42 in Donetsk oblast, Our Ukraine observers were kicked out of all but a few polling stations.
    North Korean-Style Turnout in the East: Turnout in the pro-Yanukovych eastern oblasts was unnaturally high. In several electoral districts, turnout for the run-off round increased by 30 to 40 percent over the first round. In Luhansk oblast, the reported turnout rate hit nearly 96 percent — a number that, to quote the OSCE, even Stalinist North Korea would envy. A similar turnout rate was reported in Donetsk oblast, where 98 percent of the votes went to hometown candidate Prime Minister Yanukovych.
    Mobile Ballot Box Fraud: In the second round of the election, the number of voters who supposedly cast ballots at home using mobile ballot boxes was double that of the first round. Much of this voting occurred without observers being present and was massively fraudulent. In Mykolayiv oblast, for example, nearly 35 percent of the oblast’s voters purportedly cast their ballots “at home.”
    Computer Data Allegedly Altered To Favor Yanukovych: There were credible reports showing that that Yanukovych supporters gained illegal access to the Central Election Commission’s computer system and illegally altered vote tabulation data being transmitted by TECs to the CEC.
    Reports of Opposition Fraud: Yanykovych’s supporters allege that Yushchenko’s supporters stuffed ballot boxes in western Ukraine. But the reports and evidence of pro-Yanukovych fraud greatly outweighed those indicated for Yushchenko.

    Of course, exit polling etc were used as a reference:

    This massive ballot-box stuffing, fake turnout figures, and other forms of fraud and abuse allowed the authorities to create a victory for their candidate that almost certainly would not have been possible in a free and fair election. The final figures announced by the Central Election Commission (CEC) gave Prime Minister Yanukovych with 49.46 percent of the vote over opposition candidate Yushchenko with 46.61 percent. It is impossible to know what the real numbers were, but a large-scale (20,000 respondents), nation-wide anonymous exit poll conducted by a consortium of three highly respected research organizations (partially funded by the United States Government) projected Yushchenko the winner with 53 percent versus 44 percent for Yanukovych. Other exit polls and parallel vote counts indicated a Yushchenko victory, although by lesser amounts.

    Such polling now stands discredited through repeated inaccuracies, sometimes gross. >>

    KF

  315. 315
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N, from 693, first previous, clipping a Harvard study on the Egypt case:

    >> In Egypt, protests and strikes began on January 25, 2011 (National Police Day) and lasted for 18 days, bringing together various opposition groups representing a wide cross section of Egyptian society including secularists, feminists, Islamists, anti-capitalists, and many others. Notably, while the January 25 protests were initiated by a group of opposition activists, the Egyptian Arab Spring did not have a centralized leadership and no single element of the opposition was in control. [–> a more balanced view but do not take as gospel; note that describing the Muslim Brotherhood as “moderate” is a sign of bias] . . . . In 2010, a young man named Khaled Said was beaten to death by two police officers after being dragged out of a cybercafé in in Alexandria. [–> notice, police in a state that was oligarchic, not democratic] Photographs of his disfigured body were shared online. Wael Ghoneim, an Egyptian Google Executive living in Dubai—who would go on to become a prominent Arab Spring youth activist—created a Facebook group called “We Are All Khaled Said,” [–> powerful, connected person] which quickly drew membership in the hundreds of thousands. [–> web amplification, note, plausibility of key narrative does not pivot on substantial truth or fairness, just it appeals to popular feeling and tendencies] . . . . The Facebook page and other social media sites became public forums for the remembrance of Said and for discourse around what he died for. These issues became fundamental to the outbreak of protests in the coming year . . . Small-scale, local demonstrations took place protesting Said’s death, but it was on Ghoneim’s Facebook page that the announcement for the January 25 protests—held on January 25, National Police Day—was first publicized . . . .

    Chanting “The People Want to Bring Down Regime” (al-shaab yurid isqat al-nizam), a broad spectrum of protestors, from labor and youth activists to feminists and individual members of the Muslim Brotherhood (there without sanction from the organization), sought political change in the wake of decades of corruption, police brutality, media censorship, unemployment, inflation, and other problems. [–> notice the coalition taking to the streets] The protest took various forms, from the occupation of downtown Cairo’s Tahrir Square [–> notice, the mass rape of an American journalist here] , to labor strikes, acts of civil disobedience, clashes with armed forces, and others. Violence between protestors and the police resulted in 846 deaths and several thousand injuries.

    President Hosni Mubarak—in office since 1981—was deposed on February 11, 2011, [–> 4GW overthrow] after which the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces (SCAF) dissolved the Egyptian Parliament, suspended the constitution, and dissolved the nation’s “emergency laws.” Protestor deaths formed the basis of allegations against Mubarak, for which he was sentenced to life in prison in June, 2012, but was released in August 2013 under the post-coup military government. >>

    This is how a colour revolution went down, and where it ended.

    KF

  316. 316
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: It seems there is an emerging wave of censorship by major tech platforms. That is a red flag. KF

  317. 317
    Steve Alten2 says:

    Trump has been permanently banned from Twitter. Given the influence this guy has over the weak minded, and his habit of preaching divisiveness and hatred, I would say that it is a good decision.

  318. 318
  319. 319
    jerry says:

    They love Trump in Tokyo.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Reuters/status/1347269272477659136

    On their way to storm the palace.

    A strong minded reaction to Trump’s ban from Twitter.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/w_terrence/status/1347700969048600576

    Trump is everywhere

    https://mobile.twitter.com/yashar/status/1347718683351601152

    Obi Wan

    If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine

    The centralized power over US democracy (and other democracies) concentrated in the hands of a tiny number of unaccountable Silicon Valley oligarchs is stunning, unprecedented and unsustainable.

    Glen Greenwald

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1347690238806790149

  320. 320
    Steve Alten2 says:

    Twitter publishes their moderation policies. Trump has repeatedly violated these policies but has been given leeway because of his position. And he has been warned multiple times about his violations. And ignored them. I am not aware of any site that does not have moderation rules and that does not, on occasion, ban a commenter. According to a commenter above, even this site bans people.

    I have a prediction. Before January 20th Trump will attempt some form of executive order to retaliate against his Twitter ban. Is there anyone here willing to place a friendly wager on this? The loser voluntarily leaves this site for good?

  321. 321
    jerry says:

    The loser voluntarily leaves this site for good?

    Why don’t you bet yourself. Sounds like a win for everyone.

  322. 322
    Steve Alten2 says:

    Jerry “ Why don’t you bet yourself. Sounds like a win for everyone.

    By your unwillingness to bet, I take it that you also think that he will attempt a childish retaliation against Twitter through an executive order.

  323. 323
    Steve Alten2 says:

    Donald Trump’s summertime push for “law and order” could come back to haunt him this winter after the storming of the U.S. Capitol.
    In his authoritarian response to protests against white supremacy that swept the nation after the homicide of George Floyd by Minneapolis police, Trump signed an executive order demanding federal prosecutors throw the book at those who damage federal property, including by charging vandals under a provision of the federal code that provides for sentences of up to 10 years in prison. The executive order also sought harsh punishment for those that incite such damage. Under the plain language of this executive order, the militants who stormed the Capitol — as well as President Trump himself — should now be in jeopardy of federal prosecution.

  324. 324
    mike1962 says:

    Well, the trolls are a little entertaining. Hehe. A little bit. Hehe. (We laff.)

  325. 325
    kairosfocus says:

    SA2, you don’t seem to understand that a widespread censorship has been imposed on a flimsy excuse that does not stand simple comparison with how much more extensive and serious riots clearly connected to red guard, colour-culture revolution tactics and linked mobilisation backed by an identifiable ecosystem of organisations and backers were handled across the past seven or so months. Further to this, the public facts regarding McFaul colour revolution recipes and the SOCOM insurgency escalator as are summarised in the OP above are sidelined. The obvious photographic evidence showing scrutineer frustration (so, breach of sound chain of custody on ballots) twice over, also in OP is ignored. The glaring selectiveness shows that this too is a case of a 4g war, agitprop operation, marginalising and silencing the designated scapegoat and despised other. The result will not be as expected, as they are simply underscoring the reality of existential threat. Meanwhile, the substantial evidence and argument on public fact and failed moral duty remain evaded or dismissed on bare appeal to enforced pseudo-consensus. All of this is a sowing of the wind. KF

  326. 326
    Steve Alten2 says:

    Mike1962 “ Well, you have to agree that the trolls are entertaining. Hehe. A little bit. Hehe. (We laff.)

    Obviously another person who believes that Trump will try to use an executive order to retaliate.

    But on a more serious issue, I am interested to hear people’s opinion on whether his Twitter ban is a violation of free speech.

  327. 327
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: Here is Enc Brit on the Red Guard reign of terror during the Culture revolution, highly material history:

    >>Red Guards, Chinese (Pinyin) Hongweibing or (Wade-Giles romanization) Hung-wei-ping, in Chinese history, groups of militant university and high school students formed into paramilitary units as part of the Cultural Revolution (1966–76). These young people often wore green jackets similar to the uniforms of the Chinese army at the time, with red armbands attached to one of the sleeves. They were formed under the auspices of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) in 1966 in order to help party chairman Mao Zedong combat “revisionist” authorities [–> in short, shock troops for a coup, he had been stripped of powers earlier due to his catastrophic great leap forward]—i.e., those party leaders Mao considered as being insufficiently revolutionary. Mao was thus making a bid to regain control of the CCP from his colleagues, but the Red Guards who responded in August 1966 to his summons fancied themselves as new revolutionary rebels pledged to eliminating all remnants of the old culture in China [–> year zero reset radicalism, imagining themselves the vanguard of the future], as well as purging all supposedly bourgeois elements within the government. Several million Red Guards journeyed to Beijing to meet with Mao in eight massive demonstrations late in 1966, and the total number of Red Guards throughout the country may have reached 11 million at some point.

    While engaging in marches, meetings, and frenzied propagandizing [–> agit prop, indoctrination, persecution of the despised other, mob rule tactics, public humiliation and torture, sometimes lynchings and induced suicides], Red Guard units attacked and persecuted local party leaders as well as schoolteachers and school officials, other intellectuals, and persons of traditional views [–> despised others]. Several hundred thousand people died in the course of these persecutions. By early 1967 Red Guard units were overthrowing existing party authorities in towns, cities, and entire provinces . . . >>

    Chaos continued for a decade, even after the suppression of the initial wave by 1968 or so.

    We are already seeing the scapegoating, stereotyping, belittling, demonisation and censorship of the despised other, with big tech corporations acting as censors of the deep state.

    The 4th gen civil war is ramping up.

    It will not end as those who carried out an electoral Pearl Harbor imagine.

    KF

    PS, as a measure of conscience-benumbed ruthlessness and corrupting influence, we must never lose sight of the fact that we are dealing with the small-p party of holocaust, mass slaughter of living posterity in the womb. A small-P as this cuts across nominal party-lines. The US toll of abortions per slightly adjusted Guttmacher figures . . . likely under rather than over . . . being 61.6 millions and growing at 400 – 700 k/y depending. Global toll over this span is north of 800 millions, with last year 42 – 73 millions. We must calibrate understanding in light of that burden of guilt — including guilt of suppression of horrific truth — which has to be projected elsewhere per cognitive dissonance and the mirror principle.

  328. 328
    vividbleau says:

    Steve
    “But on a more serious issue, I am interested to hear people’s opinion on whether his Twitter ban is a violation of free speech.”

    Censorship yes but a legal violation of free speech, no.

    Vivid

  329. 329
    vividbleau says:

    KF re 316

    And so it begins.

    Vivid

  330. 330
    AndyClue says:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/DonaldJTrumpJr/status/1347698165030346752

    So the ayatollah, and numerous other dictatorial regimes can have Twitter accounts with no issue despite threatening genocide to entire countries and killing homosexuals etc… but The President of the United States should be permanently suspended.

    Mao would be proud.

  331. 331
    kairosfocus says:

    Okay, it seems there is enough resolution of the situation to stop a live event tracking process; now, archival. The outcome is deeply sad and sobering for our civilisation regardless of one’s inclinations and for how we need to go forward from here; many things are deeply wrong and the degree of polarisation and deadlock makes solutions short of deep pain unlikely to be effective. We are going to have to learn the hard way yet again. It is obvious that there will be need to go back to the roots of reason and worldviews, to soundness in argument and prudence. For example, if we have unresponsiveness to evidence and logic, one can only document for record on say the design issue. But, that is going forward, for now, the ghosts of Plato, Alcibiades and Socrates are doubtless shaking their heads sadly. May God have mercy on us all in our folly. TERMINUS

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