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Darwin’s peppered myth: Turns out, peppered moths take care to protect themselves

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A Darwin cult (the peppered myth) developed during the twentieth century around the peppered moths, with the recent “resounding triumph” that it turns out that pollution effects do favour dark coloured moths over light coloured ones in the same species, with no important changes.

Whoop whoop. That is all Darwinism can come up with, in real life, after all this time.

But so? Snowbelt effects explain why the Canadian Groundhog Day groundhog is white and the American one is brown. No evolution was ever harmed in the making of the diverting nonsense.

In “Peppered Moths Without Evolution” (July 31, 2012), Creation-Evolution Headlines comments , noting a recent, more detailed study,

Kettlewell and Majerus didn’t take into account the moths’ behavior. They treated moths as passive creatures that would alight on tree trunks at random. They placed the selective power in the environment, with lower contrast producing greater camouflage, leaving the high-contrast moths vulnerable to birds.

The South Korean researchers found, instead, that moth behavior plays a vital role in the camouflage. They “found out that moths are walking on the tree bark until they settle down for resting; the insects seem to actively search for a place and a body position that makes them practically invisible.” A video clip embedded in the article shows the moths doing this.

The article avoids superstitious homage to Darwin as well, apparently. That’s a start  in the right direction.

We always thought that the moth had more interest in protecting its hide than the researchers did, and guess what? But how do the moths know if, when they feel invisible, they really are invisible?

See also: US Darwinists (US ranked 14th) wail over South Korea (ranked 1st), supposedly “not able to compete”

Comments
F/N: Worth looking from ENV:
Kang et al. do not deny that natural selection might be at work. They propose that morphological and behavioral adaptations might "co-evolve" to produce the moths' highly effective camouflage. Some might criticize their methods on various grounds. Possible criticisms include: (1) "Human predators" are a poor substitute for the moths' natural bird predators. The authors acknowledge this, but explain that both birds and humans rely on visual cues to first locate the moths; besides, previous investigators also used humans to test camouflage effectiveness. (2) UV light, to which some birds are sensitive, might affect the visibility of the moths on the trees. The authors took this into account, but from their measurements of the UV spectrum of tree trunks and moths, they believe it would be a minor factor, at most, for UV-sensing birds. (3) They only studied two Korean moth species, and not peppered moths. The authors realize this; they were not making a global generalization. They were just cautioning investigators to be aware that behavioral phenotypes must be considered in all future studies of adaptive camouflage; and, thereby, they invalidated all previous work that had ignored this factor . . .
KFkairosfocus
August 3, 2012
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You might find this one interesting as well.Starbuck
August 3, 2012
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The only way to tell the difference between genetic drift and natural selection in the wild is post hoc/ ad hoc speculation.
Care to explain what you mean? Could you explain, precisely, the "post hoc/ ad hoc speculation" in this paper, for example? Or are you going to stick to your usual strategy of making general accusations, and avoiding backing them up?A Gene
August 3, 2012
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You keep saying "speculation" - I don't think you know what it means.wd400
August 3, 2012
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Joe, "Ya see there is no way to predict what will be slected for at any point in time and there is no way to predict what variation will arise at any point in time, so all one can do is post hoc and ad hoc speculations." I D most certainly against evolution, yes? I D acts to explain not needing "speculation", yes? ["speculation" used in proper form, no? please correct if no] sergiosergiomendes
August 3, 2012
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wd400- The only way to tell the difference between genetic drift and natural selection in the wild is post hoc/ ad hoc speculation.Joe
August 3, 2012
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Joe, Didn't you want to know how you tell the difference between drift and selection in the wild? And didn't you get told? What has any of that got to do with "speculation" or the predictions you're going on about?wd400
August 3, 2012
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A Gene- as I thought, post hoc and ad hoc speculations are nice but they do not amount to much scientifically. Ya see there is no way to predict what will be slected for at any point in time and there is no way to predict what variation will arise at any point in time, so all one can do is post hoc and ad hoc speculations. And none of that deals with the arrival of the organism in the forst place.Joe
August 3, 2012
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Thou Shalt Not Put Evolutionary Theory to a Test - Douglas Axe - July 18, 2012 Excerpt: "For example, McBride criticizes me for not mentioning genetic drift in my discussion of human origins, apparently without realizing that the result of Durrett and Schmidt rules drift out. Each and every specific genetic change needed to produce humans from apes would have to have conferred a significant selective advantage in order for humans to have appeared in the available time (i.e. the mutations cannot be 'neutral'). Any aspect of the transition that requires two or more mutations to act in combination in order to increase fitness would take way too long (>100 million years). My challenge to McBride, and everyone else who believes the evolutionary story of human origins, is not to provide the list of mutations that did the trick, but rather a list of mutations that can do it. Otherwise they're in the position of insisting that something is a scientific fact without having the faintest idea how it even could be." Doug Axe PhD. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/07/thou_shalt_not062351.html Here is a Completely Different Way of Doing Science - Cornelius Hunter PhD. - April 2012 Excerpt: But how then could evolution proceed if mutations were just neutral? The idea was that neutral mutations would accrue until finally an earthquake, comet, volcano or some such would cause a major environmental shift which suddenly could make use of all those neutral mutations. Suddenly, those old mutations went from goat-to-hero, providing just the designs that were needed to cope with the new environmental challenge. It was another example of the incredible serendipity that evolutionists call upon. Too good to be true? Not for evolutionists. The neutral theory became quite popular in the literature. The idea that mutations were not brimming with cool innovations but were mostly bad or at best neutral, for some, went from an anathema to orthodoxy. And the idea that those neutral mutations would later magically provide the needed innovations became another evolutionary just-so story, told with conviction as though it was a scientific finding. Another problem with the theory of neutral molecular evolution is that it made even more obvious the awkward question of where these genes came from in the first place. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/04/here-is-completely-different-way-of.html Majestic Ascent: Berlinski on Darwin on Trial - David Berlinski - November 2011 Excerpt: The publication in 1983 of Motoo Kimura's The Neutral Theory of Molecular Evolution consolidated ideas that Kimura had introduced in the late 1960s. On the molecular level, evolution is entirely stochastic, and if it proceeds at all, it proceeds by drift along a leaves-and-current model. Kimura's theories left the emergence of complex biological structures an enigma, but they played an important role in the local economy of belief. They allowed biologists to affirm that they welcomed responsible criticism. "A critique of neo-Darwinism," the Dutch biologist Gert Korthof boasted, "can be incorporated into neo-Darwinism if there is evidence and a good theory, which contributes to the progress of science." By this standard, if the Archangel Gabriel were to accept personal responsibility for the Cambrian explosion, his views would be widely described as neo-Darwinian. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/11/berlinski_on_darwin_on_trial053171.htmlbornagain77
August 3, 2012
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I don’t think it is possible, Nick. So it would be interesting to know exactly what is taught and exactly how it is verified- that natural selection, a result, didit.
Oh dear - there's a whole book about it. There's even papers specifically comparing drift and selection. How about pulling your head out of the sand and doing some research?A Gene
August 3, 2012
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" You don’t get to call something a myth when the evidence has confirmed it." -- Nick Matzke. You can of course, but you'll rightly be called a blistering moron. And this is just how it should be. And just the same the you don't get to call something a not-myth when the only evidence is mythology. Or, again, you can if you wish to be rightly called a blistering moron. "Wow, you IDists are so incredibly desperate to take down the peppered moth example, you will say almost anything, no matter if it contradicts even your own previous criticisms." I thought this was known as 'self-correcting' rather than 'desperation'. If there's a difference between the two terms then I should sorely like to know what it is. "1. Kettlewell and Majerus both *did do* ..." Truth in advertising is such a difficult thing. Kettlewell did not control for this appropriately and there were proper criticisms raised. However, Majerus did control for such things. And, if Wiki is to be considered faithful on the subject then indeed the peppered moth in question did prefer shaded areas. Which, really, isn't terribly surprising at all. But if this is just a replication of the notion that moths prefer shady areas then there can hardly be an objection to it on that basis. And it's hardly germane as to whether its the same or differing genus. Of course, the problem with experimental validation is never the experimental set up itself. It is always and only the conclusions that we draw from the experiment. And if the set up doesn't permit us to draw the conclusions that we wish to draw then: Put a sock in it. I can't fathom you disagreeing with any of these points, but if you do, then feel free to raise your objections. "2. Wells himself, copying the critiques by Majerus and others ..." I agree. If one is to be speaking of bird vision in conclusion then one needs to include a tetrachromatic or pentachromatic model. Or show that the difference in cones are irrelevant for the given subject. Neither makes an issue for speaking of moth behaviour and camouflage with respect to the human visible spectra. "Peppered moths don’t have highly sophisticated camouflaging behavior." That's irrelevant. If they preferentially seek shaded areas then it is immaterial as to whether it is simple phototaxi behaviour or if it is predicated on the ability of moths to solve differntial equations with a slide rule. "As for the mutational change from light to dark in the peppered moth, we don’t quite know the exact mutational change yet, but it could well be just a point mutation." Which is a fancy way to state "We don't know. Full stop." The problem here is that we are speaking only of the notion that predators can only predate what they can find and that predators are preferentially lazy. That predate first what's easiest to go after. But that's trivially observable without respect to any theory at all. And certainly if evolution were not consistent with such pedestrian notions then it would be a great charade. But of course, this is not the case. But what this doesn't do is establish empirical evidence for evolution itself. It is, again, a problem of drawing conclusions that are supported by the experimental set up.Maus
August 2, 2012
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As typical Nick, instead of actual experimental evidence showing the origination of anything of significance by neo-Darwinian processes, as requested from you, I get excuses from you. Excuse making is NOT EMPIRICAL SCIENCE Nick!
Nothing In Molecular Biology Is Gradual - Doug Axe PhD. - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5347797/ "Charles Darwin said (paraphrase), 'If anyone could find anything that could not be had through a number of slight, successive, modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.' Well that condition has been met time and time again. Basically every gene, every protein fold. There is nothing of significance that we can show that can be had in a gradualist way. It's a mirage. None of it happens that way. - Doug Axe PhD.
Nick you can't even demonstrate the fixation of a single beneficial mutation in a metazoan much less a gene/protein:
Experimental Evolution in Fruit Flies (35 years of trying to force fruit flies to evolve in the laboratory fails, spectacularly) - October 2010 Excerpt: "Despite decades of sustained selection in relatively small, sexually reproducing laboratory populations, selection did not lead to the fixation of newly arising unconditionally advantageous alleles.,,, "This research really upends the dominant paradigm about how species evolve," said ecology and evolutionary biology professor Anthony Long, the primary investigator. http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/literature/2010/10/07/experimental_evolution_in_fruit_flies
And Nick the fixation of advantageous mutations in bacteria are found to produce negative epistasis when combined:
Mutations : when benefits level off - June 2011 - (Lenski's e-coli after 50,000 generations) Excerpt: After having identified the first five beneficial mutations combined successively and spontaneously in the bacterial population, the scientists generated, from the ancestral bacterial strain, 32 mutant strains exhibiting all of the possible combinations of each of these five mutations. They then noted that the benefit linked to the simultaneous presence of five mutations was less than the sum of the individual benefits conferred by each mutation individually. http://www2.cnrs.fr/en/1867.htm?theme1=7
You simply Nick, no matter how 'desperate' you are to deny it to the contrary, have no empirical evidence to support your 'bottom up' neo-Darwinian worldview! This 'problem' is even admitted in peer-review
The Fate of Darwinism: Evolution After the Modern Synthesis - January 2012 Excerpt: We trace the history of the Modern Evolutionary Synthesis, and of genetic Darwinism generally, with a view to showing why, even in its current versions, it can no longer serve as a general framework for evolutionary theory. The main reason is empirical. Genetical Darwinism cannot accommodate the role of development (and of genes in development) in many evolutionary processes. http://www.springerlink.com/content/845x02v03g3t7002/ Peer-Reviewed Paper Concludes that Darwinism "Has Pretty Much Reached the End of Its Rope" - Jonathan M. - February , 2012 Excerpt: Contrary to the Darwin lobby's oft-repeated assertion that there are absolutely no weaknesses in Darwinian theory, the paper offers the concession that the modern synthesis has never provided an account of "how major forms of life evolved" -- an omission that is not unsubstantial, to put it mildly. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/02/has_darwinism_p055941.html
further notes on the bankruptcy of Nick's 'bottom up' neo-Darwinian worldview:
More from Ann Gauger on why humans didn’t happen the way Darwin said - July 2012 Excerpt: Each of these new features probably required multiple mutations. Getting a feature that requires six neutral mutations is the limit of what bacteria can produce. For primates (e.g., monkeys, apes and humans) the limit is much more severe. Because of much smaller effective population sizes (an estimated ten thousand for humans instead of a billion for bacteria) and longer generation times (fifteen to twenty years per generation for humans vs. a thousand generations per year for bacteria), it would take a very long time for even a single beneficial mutation to appear and become fixed in a human population. You don’t have to take my word for it. In 2007, Durrett and Schmidt estimated in the journal Genetics that for a single mutation to occur in a nucleotide-binding site and be fixed in a primate lineage would require a waiting time of six million years. The same authors later estimated it would take 216 million years for the binding site to acquire two mutations, if the first mutation was neutral in its effect. Facing Facts But six million years is the entire time allotted for the transition from our last common ancestor with chimps to us according to the standard evolutionary timescale. Two hundred and sixteen million years takes us back to the Triassic, when the very first mammals appeared. One or two mutations simply aren’t sufficient to produce the necessary changes— sixteen anatomical features—in the time available. At most, a new binding site might affect the regulation of one or two genes. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/more-from-ann-gauger-on-why-humans-didnt-happen-the-way-darwin-said/ Science & Human Origins: Interview With Dr. Douglas Axe (podcast on the strict limits found for changing proteins to other very similar proteins) - July 2012 http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2012-07-24T21_33_53-07_00 Widespread ORFan Genes Challenge Common Descent – Paul Nelson – video with references http://www.vimeo.com/17135166
Nick if you want to know where the massive amounts of complex functional information came from in life, indeed if you want to know where life itself came from, I will give you a huge hint: Verse and Music
John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. Newsboys - God's Not Dead http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=FMF12FNU
bornagain77
August 2, 2012
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http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/08/journal_of_evol062781.html Something for Nick to look at. All his arguments have aleady been considered, and in my view simply show him up.PeterJ
August 2, 2012
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Hey Nick, how can one tell natural selection from genetic drift, in the wild?
This is easy, do you really not know this? We teach it to undergrads in genetics class.
I don't think it is possible, Nick. So it would be interesting to know exactly what is taught and exactly how it is verified- that natural selection, a result, didit. And what this new study demonstrates is that behavioural changes are the way to go as opposed to waiting for the right mutation to come along and change your color.Joe
August 2, 2012
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I not desperate at all Nick. Indeed you scientifically inept Darwinists have taught me patience well. Please show me the exact experimental work that shows the origination of the light and dark colored gene(s), as well as the exact experimental work showing me exactly how this highly sophisticated camouflaging behavior arose?!?
Peppered moths don't have highly sophisticated camouflaging behavior. They don't look around for a matching spot. The junk you are reading on UD and the DI website is talking about a paper about moth species in Korea which are not the same species or even the same genus as the peppered moth. For some bizarre reason they are conflating these different species, even though it is easy to see that this is a huge, basic, mistake. As for the mutational change from light to dark in the peppered moth, we don't quite know the exact mutational change yet, but it could well be just a point mutation. It's not exactly hard for a mutation to push up the amount of melanin in an organism.NickMatzke_UD
August 2, 2012
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Nick states:
Wow, you IDists are so incredibly desperate to take down the peppered moth example,
I not desperate at all Nick. Indeed you scientifically inept Darwinists have taught me patience well. Please show me the exact experimental work that shows the origination of the light and dark colored gene(s), as well as the exact experimental work showing me exactly how this highly sophisticated camouflaging behavior arose?!?bornagain77
August 2, 2012
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Starbuck, this is not a paper directly challenging natural selection per se in the shifts of light colored to dark colored moths. To be sure, Kang et al. do not deny that natural selection might be at work. This paper primarily points out how weak the experimental setup was in the first place. Moreover the paper reveals a highly sophisticated behavior in moths for searching out the best camouflage. Indeed I do not doubt that populations of moths have shifted in proportions to dark and light colors, but what I want to know is where did the moths get the genetic information for light and dark colors, and where did they get this highly sophisticated camouflaging behavior in the first place? Darwinists simply never address these important issues! ENV has weighed in:
Journal of Evolutionary Biology Confirms Jonathan Wells (by Name) on Peppered Moth Myth - August 2012 Excerpt: It's astonishing (and deplorable) that during the 57 years that the peppered moth has been promoted as a stellar case of evolution in action, nobody performed this experiment until now: "... no direct test of adaptive role of this behavior has been conducted," the team says on page 2, and again on page 5, "This is the first study that directly measures the detection of moths by visual predators before and after a moth performed the body positioning behavior." ,,, Yet the behavior of the moth is key to the story. In the real world, as opposed to the staged peppered-moth photos we have all seen in textbooks, the moths would not have stood out like sore thumbs on the tree trunks. They would have wandered about for a place to blend in; most likely, they would not have landed in such conspicuous spots in the first place (Wells, p. 148). Letting the moths do what comes naturally is what the experimenters should have done. The old peppered moth experiments, consequently, have been invalidated (again). In summary, by using one of the iconic examples of evolution, we showed how a morphological adaptation cannot be fully understood without taking into account a full behavioural phenotype responsible in natural situations for increasing the adaptive function of the morphological trait. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/08/journal_of_evol062781.html
bornagain77
August 2, 2012
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Wow, you IDists are so incredibly desperate to take down the peppered moth example, you will say almost anything, no matter if it contradicts even your own previous criticisms. Here's the Discovery Institute Anony-News person: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/08/journal_of_evol062781.html
So, Kang et al. decided to go back to the original plan and let the moths do what they do naturally without investigators interfering. They let the moths choose the trees to land on, and they photographed what they did after they landed. It changed the picture entirely. Into the forest they went, releasing their captive moths (two native species), and watching them with Canon cameras in hand. They photographed the initial landing spot and orientation, then watched them come to a final resting spot and orientation -- often some centimeters from where they initially landed. Calibrating their photographs carefully with controls, they brought these photographs into the lab, cropped them to remove extraneous cues, and showed them to human subjects as "experimental predators." Using software that flashed the images on a screen, they asked the human predators to hunt for the moths in the photographs within a reasonable time limit. A major discovery followed. The moths were much harder to spot after they moved from their initial landing spot to the final resting spot. You can see this for yourself in some of the photographs they published. The moths moved around, some of them rotating, till they became almost invisible. You can also watch the moth behavior in movie clips from the Supporting Information page. Sure enough; those clever insects demonstrated an uncanny ability to blend perfectly into the bark by moving around. If you had photographed only their initial landing spot (or had glued them to the tree trunk), you wouldn't know this. It's astonishing (and deplorable) that during the 57 years that the peppered moth has been promoted as a stellar case of evolution in action, nobody performed this experiment until now: "... no direct test of adaptive role of this behavior has been conducted," the team says on page 2, and again on page 5, "This is the first study that directly measures the detection of moths by visual predators before and after a moth performed the body positioning behavior." Yet the behavior of the moth is key to the story. In the real world, as opposed to the staged peppered-moth photos we have all seen in textbooks, the moths would not have stood out like sore thumbs on the tree trunks. They would have wandered about for a place to blend in; most likely, they would not have landed in such conspicuous spots in the first place (Wells, p. 148). Letting the moths do what comes naturally is what the experimenters should have done. The old peppered moth experiments, consequently, have been invalidated (again).
Over here in real life: 1. Kettlewell and Majerus both *did do* bird predation experiments where the moths were allowed to find their own resting spots. The new study didn't even do anything with bird predation. 2. Wells himself, copying the critiques by Majerus and others of peppered moth work, claimed that it was a problem when (in some experiments) human vision was used to judge hiddenness, rather than bird vision. Some peppered moth work was also criticizied for artificiality, yet when the Korean study flashes images to humans on a dang computer screen, no such complaint is raised, even though this is far more artificial than anything done in the various classic peppered moth studies. When these sorts of points can be used against peppered moth work, it's a huge crashing problem for peppered moth work! But when these Korean researchers ignored this and used human vision, oh that was just fine, and revolutionary work debunking the peppered moth example, somehow-or-other-we-wont-say. Get your dang story straight, guys. 3. The DI post neglects to note that Kettlewell and Majerus did both explicitly study peppered moth resting and positioning behavior, and were well aware of its potential importance. 4. It also failed to mention that the background-matching behavior observed in the Korea moths has been explicitly sought in the peppered moth, but the behavior isn't really found in that species. Incompetence, thy name is creationism/ID.NickMatzke_UD
August 2, 2012
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When the changes were first noted the genetic basis was unknown, and one idea tried out was simply that the pollution on food plants caused the insects to become darker. However, the melanics are genetic (usually simple Mendelian dominants) and pollution has not been shown to change the color of adults, so the most likely selective agent is (visual) predation.
Yep.NickMatzke_UD
August 2, 2012
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Hey Nick, how can one tell natural selection from genetic drift, in the wild?
This is easy, do you really not know this? We teach it to undergrads in genetics class.NickMatzke_UD
August 2, 2012
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When the changes were first noted the genetic basis was unknown, and one idea tried out was simply that the pollution on food plants caused the insects to become darker. However, the melanics are genetic (usually simple Mendelian dominants) and pollution has not been shown to change the color of adults, so the most likely selective agent is (visual) predation.Starbuck
August 2, 2012
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Nick: You creationists screamed for 10 years about how the peppered moth example was a “peppered myth” because allegedly the evidence was against the bird predation/camouflage hypothesis first documented by Kettlewell. But it turned out Kettlewell was right, as was obvious throughout to anyone who carefully read Kettlewell’s research and the half dozen subsequent studies which confirmed Kettlewell’s basic conclusions. Judith Hooper, in her "Of Moths and Men", raises substantial issues with Kettlewell's study. She is neither a "creationist", nor an ID adherent. So why go blaming IDists? And, there's your mention of Ted Sargent. He is mentioned quite often in Hooper's book. Here's what he says about melanism: In this same way, I have suggested that melanic polymorphisms may actually be polyphenisms, with the gene (or genes) for melanism being expressed under some conditions, and not expressed under others. The fact that melanism acts like a Mendelian dominant is irrelevent to my suggestion. I would agree that the gene is a dominant one, and is inherited as such, under conditions where this gene is expressed. And, indeed, selection would act to increase or decrease the incidence of melanism under these conditions, since at least two phenotypes ("typical" and "melanic") are being produced. But what I am also suggesting is that the gene in question (i.e., the dominant allele for melanism) may not be expressed under some conditions. This could give the impression that the "typical" form is due to a homozygous recessive genotype. But perhaps the moths in question possess the genetic potential to be either typical or melanic - and the dominant allele (for melanism) is not being expressed (just as the alleles for a "spring" form are not being expressed in the "fall" brood of species with seasonal forms). Thus, I am suggesting that gene (or allele) frequencies may not be changing in nature, at least to the extent suggested by the changing frequencies of the two forms that are seen in species exhibiting industrial melanism. Putting it another way, phenoypes may change without changes in the underlying genotypes. Or, at least there need not be a simple relationship between the two. Well, Nick, if Ted Sargent--an established scientist, not a Creationist, not an IDist--is correct, then "melanism" as an example of neo-Darwinian mechanisms looks like it might be completely wrongheaded. So, who's guilty then of making "a complete incompetent hash of this story", the IDists, or the evolutionists?PaV
August 2, 2012
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Hey Nick, how can one tell natural selection from genetic drift, in the wild?
One could calculate the probabilistic resources needed to get the observed changes: the increase and subsequent decrease in melanism. Here's a chance to throw some ID theory at a problem.A Gene
August 2, 2012
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Ken Miller on the peppered moth:
What we do know is that the rise and fall of dark-colored moths, a phenomenon known as "industrial melanism," remains a striking and persuasive example of natural selection in action. What we have to be cautious about is attributing 100% of the work of natural selection in this case to the camouflage of the moths and their direct visibility to birds.
That's it? REALLY? If that is all natural selection can "do" then it is obvious that the theory of evolution is in deep poo....Joe
August 2, 2012
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Hey Nick, how can one tell natural selection from genetic drift, in the wild? And how can we test that either natural selection or genetic drift produced moths from non-moths? THAT is the myth Nick, that natural selction has anything to do with the arrival of moths. IOW what is the evidence that natural selection or genetic drift can do anything? Ya see Nick that is why the vast majority of people think that evolutionary biologists are kooks and liars- and rightly so.Joe
August 2, 2012
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bornagain77, "you still cannot make even a single ‘simple’ insect wing from scratch?" impossible to humanly copy what God has already perfected, no? sergiosergiomendes
August 2, 2012
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bornagain77, "For a twist on this experiment that would really drive Darwinists bonkers, they could artificially darken or lighten some moths and see if their behavior adjusts accordingly." most insightful point. i myself would volunteer to assist in this excellent effort to advance science and intelligent design. sergiosergiomendes
August 2, 2012
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I'm with you Nick, it really is kind of kooky to try to prove anything conclusive about Darwinism with peppered moths. Perhaps we can get down to some real biology with winged insects?
Bernard d'Abrera on Butterfly Mimicry and the Faith of the Evolutionist - October 5, 2011 Excerpt: For it to happen in a single species once through chance, is mathematically highly improbable. But when it occurs so often, in so many species, and we are expected to apply mathematical probability yet again, then either mathematics is a useless tool, or we are being criminally blind.,,, Evolutionism (with its two eldest daughters, phylogenetics and cladistics) is the only systematic synthesis in the history of the universe that proposes an Effect without a Final Cause. It is a great fraud, and cannot be taken seriously because it outrageously attempts to defend the philosophically indefensible. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/10/in_this_excerpt_from_the051571.html
Well that's not good for your Darwinism Nick! Hey Nick I have another question for you, why do you still believe neo-Darwiniism to be true when, even if we had all the scientists and all the supercomputers in the world, you still cannot make even a single 'simple' insect wing from scratch?bornagain77
August 2, 2012
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I could swear I saw this previously on this site. Is this a repeat or a replication?Maus
August 1, 2012
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Yet another example of why real biologists think creationists/IDists are kooks, and rightly so. Amongst the problems with this post and the young-earth creationist one that is referenced: 1. You creationists screamed for 10 years about how the peppered moth example was a "peppered myth" because allegedly the evidence was against the bird predation/camouflage hypothesis first documented by Kettlewell. But it turned out Kettlewell was right, as was obvious throughout to anyone who carefully read Kettlewell's research and the half dozen subsequent studies which confirmed Kettlewell's basic conclusions. You don't get to call something a myth when the evidence has confirmed it. Your position was the mythical one. 2. The peppered moth isn't "all Darwinism can come up with, in real life, after all this time". That's just silly taunting, even creationists know there are many other examples of natural selection in the wild, not to mention all of the other evidence for evolution, NS, etc. If there weren't, you guys wouldn't spend so much time talking about all of those other pieces of evidence. 3. You quote Creation-Evolution Headlines saying "Kettlewell and Majerus didn’t take into account the moths’ behavior." That's just wrong. Both Kettlewell and Majerus, and other researchers, did work specifically on the resting behavior of peppered moths, and whether or not they sought out matching backgrounds or not. IIRC, Kettlewell thought they did, and proposed the "contrast/conflict" hypothesis as a behavioral explanation for how they might do it (by trying to minimize the contrast between a part of the body their eyes can see, and the surface beneath). However, the experimental tests of these ideas, including by Majerus IIRC, have not found much evidence for peppered moths specifically picking backgrounds matching their white or black body color. It looks like peppered moths, at least, just look for a shady spot on a tree. (And actually, this makes the bird predation/camouflage hypothesis even stronger, since if peppered moths picking matching backgrounds, this would weaken selection against white moths when soot darkened parts of the environment; the white moths would just behaviorally avoid darkened areas). 4. The study being discussed is on moths in South Korea. These are not the same species as the peppered moth in England, even if the Korean moths are "peppered". It looks like they're not even the same genus. Some moths do indeed actively seek out matching backgrounds. This was known before the Korean study -- e.g. Ted Sargent documented this in an American moth species in the 1990s IIRC. But it looks like, whatever those species do, the British peppered moth species doesn't have this behavior. So the behavior of these other species is irrelevant to them. There are tens of thousands of moth species on the planet, you can't just read something about a moth species in Korea and make wild, random claims about the implications for a species of moth on the other side of the planet in England which has been very well studied on its own. Short version: you and your YEC source made a complete incompetent hash of this story, if you had any sense of scientific propriety or care for truth you would issue a retraction, recommend that Creation-Evolution Headlines did the same, and write them off as anti-scientific yammerers who don't care about research or accuracy if they don't. This kind of thing is the *primary* reason creationists don't get no respect from scientists. They don't deserve it. They don't earn it. In fact, what creationists earn is just pity and scorn, through confident-but-poorly-researched-and-inaccurate screeds like this one.NickMatzke_UD
August 1, 2012
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