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Why on Earth would a layman accept Darwinistic claims?

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First, by “Darwinistic” I mean “atheistic-materialist neo-Darwinist”, which includes the view that even the origin of life can be explained by reference to chance and natural law.

As Alan Fox points out, many of those here are “laymen” when it comes to evolutionary biology.  Most of us are not specifically schooled or trained in that arena – by “us”, I mean anyone who is interested in the debate about Darwinian evolution vs ID-inclusive evolution.  I, like many, have informed myself to a moderate degree about Darwinistic claims and the ID argument, but I’m certainly not a professional scientist, nor a philosopher with any formal academic training.

IMO, a reasonable layman would be highly skeptical of claims that matter, chance & natural law can by themselves  produce the sophisticated software/hardware nano-systems and architecture found in each self-replicating cell, much less produce consciousness, teleological will, intelligence, and imagination.  A reasonable layman would be much more likely to hold – until convinced by a good understanding of compelling evidence otherwise – that consciousness, intelligence, teleological will and imagination most probably come from that which has them or something like them already, and that highly complex, hierarchical, interdependent, organized, functional machinery that is operational through physically encoded instructions is only known to be originally produced by intelligence via teleological planning.  No one – to my knowledge – has ever witnessed unintelligent natural law, chance, and brute materials originate such devices and mechanisms. There is no good reason to believe that they can.

So I ask pro-Darwinistic, anti-ID laymen, like Alan Fox: without a professional  understanding of the biology, philosophy or logic involved, nor of information systems and theory, chemistry or bio-engineering, why on Earth would you accept that highly complex, hierarchical, interdependent, functional, self-replicating machines; consciousness, intelligence, teleological will and imagination can be produced (eventually) by the happenstance interactions of brute matter via law and chance?  What is the rational basis for accepting such a view,  especially if you admit that you do not really even understand the evidence/arguments pro or con because you are “just a layman”?

It seems to me laymen who do not feel qualified to argue the logic and the evidence on their own but instead prefer to defer to “experts” are in a situation where they should just remain skeptical of such claims, and certainly shouldn’t be cheerleading one side and dismissing the other.

Comments
BA77: Why not ... So there is widespread pressure to apply Dembskis stuff, but its all kept in check by those evil Darwinians. No, BA77, apply Occhams razor ... there is a simpler explanation.Graham2
March 19, 2013
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LT @ #33:
You’ve changed things.
If by "change" you mean that I added to my original post during the course of the discussion in response to your post that made specific charges about ID as a counter-theory to Darwinistic claims., then yes. I still addressed the original points about like from like and apparent design, but I broadened the "laymen" argument to include another thing atheist/materialists and ID advocates disagree about.
That question was answered.
Well, even "get bent" is an answer. I read your answer and responded to it, exploring a little deeper into the concept of "what would a layman think" in terms of what appeared to me to be signals of bias in your response about why ID explanations might - to a layman - fail - such as, "where did the designer come from" in absence of an equally fair question, "where did matter come from?"
Do you believe that one can view modern evolutionary theory as the best available, yet provisional, explanation of life’s diversity without having an “a priori axe to grind”?
How would a layman arrive at such a conclusion rationally if they hold that they are not qualified to pass judgement on the relevant evidence and arguments?William J Murray
March 19, 2013
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Casey Luskin points out that the following anti-ID philosopher even goes so far as to publish a paper saying that the bullying tactics of neo-Darwinists are justified since many ID proponents are Christian:
Anti-ID Philosopher: "Ad hominem" Arguments "Justified" When Attacking Intelligent Design Proponents - Casey Luskin - June 4, 2012 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/06/anti-id_philoso060381.html On the Fundamental Difference Between Darwin-Inspired and Intelligent Design-Inspired Lawsuits - September 2011 Excerpt: Darwin lobby litigation: In every Darwin-inspired case listed above, the Darwin lobby sought to shut down free speech, stopping people from talking about non-evolutionary views, and seeking to restrict freedom of intellectual inquiry. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/09/on_the_fundamental_difference_050451.html Intelligent Design Supporter Expelled from Civil Liberties Organization - podcast - January 2013 http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2013-01-18T19_01_00-08_00 Darwinian Philosophy: "Darwinian Natural Selection is the Only Process that could Produce the Appearance of Purpose" - Casey Luskin - August, 2012 Excerpt: In any case, this tarring and feathering of Fodor is just the latest frustrated attempt by hardline Darwinians to discourage people from using design terminology. It’s a hopeless effort, because try as they might to impose speech codes on each another, they can’t change the fact that nature is infused with purpose, which readily lends itself to, as Rosenberg calls it “teleosemantics.” http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/08/blind_darwinian063311.html Darwin's diabolical delusions - Ellis Washington - September 2011 Excerpt: Tragically, for over 150 years since the publication of Darwin's diabolical, anti-scientific book, "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life," nonpartisan science, truth, logic and deductive reasoning have been ruthlessly suppressed and replaced with state-funded Darwinist propaganda, groupthink, education atheism, liberal fascism and Machiavellian tactics as demonstrated in the Sewell case representing the ongoing battles between the Darwin Gestapo and Intelligent Design scientists. http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=343445 Evolution Is Religion--Not Science by Henry Morris, Ph.D. Excerpt: Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion—a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality,,, Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today. Darwinian atheist Michael Ruse - Prominent Philosopher Wikipedia's Tyranny of the Unemployed - David Klinghoffer - June 24, 2012 Excerpt: PLoS One has a highly technical study out of editing patterns on Wikipedia. This is of special interest to us because Wikipedia's articles on anything to do with intelligent design are replete with errors and lies, which the online encyclopedia's volunteer editors are vigilant about maintaining against all efforts to set the record straight. You simply can never outlast these folks. They have nothing better to do with their time and will always erase your attempted correction and reinstate the bogus claim, with lightning speed over and over again. ,,, on Wikipedia, "fact" is established by the party with the free time that's required to wear down everyone else and exhaust them into submission. The search for truth (on wikipedia) yields to a tyranny of the unemployed. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/06/wikipedias_tyra061281.html
bornagain77
March 19, 2013
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Graham2 asks
Imagine if we could really calculate the liklehood that some life form was actually designed … there would be a stampede of academics, all wanting to be the first with the killer paper. It would revolutionise Biology, but there isnt, and it hasnt. Why not ?
Let's see,,,
EXPELLED - Starring Ben Stein - Part 1 of 10 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIZAAh_6OXg Slaughter of Dissidents - Book "If folks liked Ben Stein's movie "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed," they will be blown away by "Slaughter of the Dissidents." - Russ Miller http://www.amazon.com/Slaughter-Dissidents-Dr-Jerry-Bergman/dp/0981873405 Origins - Slaughter of the Dissidents with Dr. Jerry Bergman - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6rzaM_BxBk “In the last few years I have seen a saddening progression at several institutions. I have witnessed unfair treatment upon scientists that do not accept macroevolutionary arguments and for their having signed the above-referenced statement regarding the examination of Darwinism. (Dissent from Darwinism list)(I will comment no further regarding the specifics of the actions taken upon the skeptics; I love and honor my colleagues too much for that.) I never thought that science would have evolved like this. I deeply value the academy; teaching, professing and research in the university are my privileges and joys… ” Professor James M. Tour – one of the ten most cited chemists in the world https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/a-world-famous-chemist-tells-the-truth-theres-no-scientist-alive-today-who-understands-macroevolution/ Scientific Dissent From Darwinism List http://www.dissentfromdarwin.org/ Academic Freedom Under Fire — Again! - October 2010 Excerpt: All Dr. Avital wanted to do was expose students to some of the weaknesses inherent in Darwin’s theory. Surely there’s no harm in that — or so one would think. But, of course, to the Darwinian faithful, such weaknesses apparently do not exist. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/10/academic_freedom_under_fire_-_038911.html
Here Dr. Behe, towards the beginning of the video, relates how the president of the National Academy of Sciences sought to ostracize him for bringing evidence forward supporting Intelligent Design:
TEDxLehighU - Michael Behe - Intelligent Design - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCP9UDFNHlo
bornagain77
March 19, 2013
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I agree with some opening comments from LT about FCSO, etc. If there were anything of value in these ideas, they would be eagerly taken up by the mathematical community (for one), if only for their academic value, but they arent. Dembski is not taken seriously. The 'explanatory filter' hasnt filtered anything in the real world yet. Imagine if we could really calculate the liklehood that some life form was actually designed ... there would be a stampede of academics, all wanting to be the first with the killer paper. It would revolutionise Biology, but there isnt, and it hasnt. Why not ? And LT at #39 ... yep.Graham2
March 19, 2013
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LarTanner-
I think Prothero’s book is pretty good.
What book? Which Prothero?
So is Shubin’s. Coyne’s too.
I read those. Nothing about accumulations of genetic accidents actuall doing something. Shubin is evo-devo- but then again so are Carroll's books "Endless Forms..." and "Making of the Fittest"- reda those too- nothing that demonstrates knowledge of type. So what was I supposed to find out by reading those books?Joe
March 19, 2013
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LT, so you call KF's empirically backed work 'indulgent, meandering puffery' and you find Coyne's 'just so' story telling to be 'pretty good'. ,,, HMMM, do you also consider Spider Man comics classic literature?? :)bornagain77
March 19, 2013
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LarTanner:
I do not know the biological history of ATP synthase. There is, of course, a section on its evolution in Wikipedia. Several recent papers appear to be cited. Otherwise, I do not personally know people who are professional experts in ATP synthase. Is there a constituency among researchers who argue ATP synthase is best explained by ID?
There isn't any constituency who argue that it arose via blind and undirected chemical processes. Also, of course, not one of those references pertain to blind and undirected chemical processes. They just wave "evolution" around as if it is a magical wand and all change is via blind and undirected chemical processes. Also the stories about its evolution are just that, stories. Evolutionism requires these multifacted protein machines come about gradually from lesser parts. The point being is those references contain untestable stories that sound sciency. And the stories are based on the world-viewJoe
March 19, 2013
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Joe@43: The question is put to Chance. There are a few theories out there, as I understand it. Good night, everyone.LarTanner
March 19, 2013
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Joe, I think Prothero's book is pretty good. So is Shubin's. Coyne's too.LarTanner
March 19, 2013
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LarTanner:
What is your theory of design? That is, what is design and what are the essential elements of design? How does one come to know something as designed?
Well if you don't like what Dembski and Meyer have to say, I refer you to Nature, Design and Science. You do realize that people have been determining design from not designed for many years. Entire enterprises depend on our ability to do so. And we are pretty successful at doing so. Just sayin'...Joe
March 19, 2013
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Joe, I do not know the biological history of ATP synthase. There is, of course, a section on its evolution in Wikipedia. Several recent papers appear to be cited. Otherwise, I do not personally know people who are professional experts in ATP synthase. Is there a constituency among researchers who argue ATP synthase is best explained by ID?LarTanner
March 19, 2013
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LarTanner:
Do you believe that one can view modern evolutionary theory as the best available, yet provisional, explanation of life’s diversity without having an “a priori axe to grind”?
Can you tell us where we can read this alleged modern evolutionary theory? I have read Darwin's version and the evidence hasn't borne it out. Does the modern version have an alleged designer mimic mechanism?Joe
March 19, 2013
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Hi Larry, I appreciate your appreciation. I can cite several places where one could review full arguments showing the ATP synthase exhibits features of design: My place, of course You Tube Evolution News and Views Uncommon Descent (just supporting my claim) over here too And that is just a quick look Can you cite any places where one can review a full argument showing the ATP synthase exhibits features of the blind watchmaker? Any animations that show atoms randomly colliding and sometimes forming molecules that accidently collide with other molecules that somehow formed ATP synthase?Joe
March 19, 2013
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KF, Get bent, man. You don't get to lecture me, and I am not going to read your indulgent, meandering puffery. I've tried reading your "101" junk, and all you do is torture the work of friend and foe alike--and then you wrap it in some bizarre amalgamation of old world snuff-box snootiness and down-home gobbledygook. Add some math-y stuff and there's your schtick. In short, you are not credible, you are not interesting, and you are not someone who needs to address me. So don't. Go impress a grad student somewhere. Pardon directness.LarTanner
March 19, 2013
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Chance at 24: Your comments are interesting. I demur from answering because I think the crucial term first needs clarification. What is your theory of design? That is, what is design and what are the essential elements of design? How does one come to know something as designed? I hope you take the demurral in the collaborative spirit in which it's meant. It's not meant as a duck or dodge. You will understand, I think, that the answers to my questions, either way, impact how your questions can be answered.LarTanner
March 19, 2013
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Optimus @34, thank you, that was kind of you to say. It reminds me that I do not often enough complement the many others here, including you, who write thoughtfully and articulately. BTW I really appreciated WJM's #28 adding thoughtfully to his original question of why a layman should accept Darwinian claims.Chance Ratcliff
March 19, 2013
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Optimus, interesting thoughts.
"At this point its ability to give a numerical value to physical systems is not there (in my opinion). In other words, for some physical system (engine, bicycle, toaster oven, etc.) FSCO/I functions as a qualitative description . For a character string (binary sequence, DNA sequence, protein sequence, etc.) FSCO/I functions as a quantitative description . Again, just my two cents.."
I understand FSCO/I to be "Functionally specific complex organization/information" so there are definitely two senses implied. Functionally specific complex organization would be a concrete product of design, and the accompanying information would be akin to the instructions by which it could be reproduced. However for the latter, we have to introduce a context, such as a manufacturing process. I'm thinking of a program for an automated factory which could produce a toaster oven, for instance, from constituent materials. This would constitute an object's digital FSCI. Perhaps it would be possible to standardize and formalize a theoretical model of a self-contained manufacturing environment, complete with an instruction set with which programs could be written to specify the manufacture of designed things. With such a model, any object's dFSCI could be estimated based on the smallest possible program which could specify its manufacture in the environment. This occurred to me while reading your comment. Perhaps it's been considered before, but it seems like a potential way to measure the digital information content as a metric of designed things where a digital representation doesn't already exist.Chance Ratcliff
March 19, 2013
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Joe @ 30: I acknowledge that you have answered the question I asked. You name the ATP synthase as an example of something biological that meets design criteria. I appreciate that you have cited one place where one could review a full argument showing the ATP synthase exhibits features of design.LarTanner
March 19, 2013
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CR @ 24 That was an excellent discussion of inferring design. Beautifully doneOptimus
March 19, 2013
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WJM,
Would a layman – with no a priori axe to grind – intuit from an apparently finely-tuned cosmos that something other than “fine-tuning” had occurred? Would a layman look at the apparent design found in nature and intuit that something other than design was responsible?
You've changed things. The original question is why a layperson would accept modern evolutionary theory--your expression was Darwinian claims. That question was answered. Do you believe that one can view modern evolutionary theory as the best available, yet provisional, explanation of life's diversity without having an "a priori axe to grind"? Or is it your contention that any favorable impression at all of evolution constitutes a priori bias against your lord?LarTanner
March 19, 2013
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LT, you took exception to me saying,
Comment 12 told me I had “ZERO” (all caps) evidence.
the part you left out,,,
that purely Darwinian processes can produce enough non-trivial functional information for even a single functional protein:
Did you just take exception to me using all caps when I said you have ZERO evidence? Or did you take exception to the fact that I pointed out that you have 'zero' (of the big fat variety) evidence that purely Darwinian processes can ever produce enough non-trivial functional information for even a single functional protein (Of ORFan gene)? If you have ANY concrete evidence to the contrary, that will hold up to scrutiny, of what I have claimed please produce it, (many people besides me would like to see it), but don't feign hurt feelings because 'I' (not some brain state) have freely chosen to emphasize the poverty of evidence for you have for your position (ZERO). It does not reflect well on you when you let emotions override rational discourse! What a girlie man! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXMzZUcQ6Vgbornagain77
March 19, 2013
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Alan Fox:
However I am unpersuaded by Biblical accounts (or other creation myths) for the origins of life.
So life never originated. But that's just what the Bible says. So do you even know what you're talking about? What creation myth are you persuaded by?Mung
March 19, 2013
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The criteria for inferring design in biology is, as Michael J. Behe, Professor of Biochemistry at Leheigh University, puts it in his book Darwin ' s Black Box: "Our ability to be confident of the design of the cilium or intracellular transport rests on the same principles to be confident of the design of anything: the ordering of separate components to achieve an identifiable function that depends sharply on the components.” He gives two examples. Then we have ATP synthase, which has been discussed several times on this blog- the more we know about it the less likely blind and undirected processes seem to be a viable mechanism. As Dawkins said we can only allow so much luck. And ATP synthase is a match for the design criteria. So if nature, operating freely cannot account for it AND it meets that criteria, some agency is required and we infer design (or at least agency involvement).Joe
March 19, 2013
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Alan Fox said:
However I am unpersuaded by Biblical accounts (or other creation myths) for the origins of life.
That would matter if "Biblical accounts (or other creation myths)" were part of my argument, or referred to in my question. They are not. The appearance of design and fine tuning doesn't rely on any creation story, and is admitted by even the most ardent Darwinists. Unless one has a metaphysical bias, and without a professional understanding of relevant and competing explanatory fields, then from your "just a layman" perspective, what would move you to deny this apparent design and fine tuning (that even experts admit) and believe that what you are seeing is not actually design and fine tuning? It can't be the arguments and evidence of the competing experts, because you are not qualified to pass judgement on that (as per your position). So, if you dismiss the arguments and evidence of competing experts, all you are left with is the appearance of design and the appearance of fine tuning, and the principle of like producing like. Outside of simple a priori bias, I don't see any reason to believe against what appears to be the case.William J Murray
March 19, 2013
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LT, Many, if not most, of the leading advocates of Darwinism freely admit that biological features look as if they were designed. Dawkins said:
“Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”
Denton:
Molecular biology has shown that even the simplest of all living systems on the earth today, bacterial cells, are exceedingly complex objects. Although the tiniest bacterial cells are incredibly small, weighing less than 10-12 gms, each is in effect a veritable micro-miniaturized factory containing thousands of exquisitely designed pieces of intricate molecular machinery, made up altogether of one hundred thousand million atoms, far more complicated than any machine built by man and absolutely without parallel in the nonliving world.
The universe - moon, sun, planets, stars - has long appeared to humans to be designed, all the way up to the present day where scientists like Hawking feel it necessary to write entire books to provide an alternative to the apparent fine-tuning of the cosmos. Hawking:
"A bottom-up approach to cosmology either requires one to postulate an initial state of the Universe that is carefully ?ne-tuned — as if prescribed by an outside agency — or it requires one to invoke the notion of eternal in?ation, a mighty speculative notion to the generation of many different Universes, which prevents one from predicting what a typical observer would see."
Would a layman - with no a priori axe to grind - intuit from an apparently finely-tuned cosmos that something other than "fine-tuning" had occurred? Would a layman look at the apparent design found in nature and intuit that something other than design was responsible? Of course not; the apparent design and fine-tuning, and the apparent "like generates like" concept, means exactly that to a layman. Brute matter isn't normally intuited or thought to produce consciousness, reasoning, teleological will; nor is it thought to "fine-tune" anything, or produce finely-tuned biological nano-machinery. As Lewontin said:
We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.
It is a matter of common understanding that many aspects of the natural world - especially biology - appear to be designed. No, this doesn't prove anything, but this thread insn't about proof; it asks why any layman, when faced with such apparent design that even scientists cannot keep the language of design out of their published work nor deny that it appears designed - why should any layman believe that it is not designed? I note that in your first post, you said:
This claim asserts that consciousness probably came from consciousness, and that designed things come from designers. The problem is that the claim gives no indication of where consciousness itself comes from or where designers come from.
It appears to me that there is some bias in the form of a double standard here. Where does matter, energy, physical law, or cosmological constants come from? Either way, causation either traces back to infinite regress or an unmoved mover/causeless cause. Just because we have no known cause for X, whether as matter, physical law, consciousness or a designer, doesn't mean X is not the best explanation for Y. It doesn't matter if we can explain what causes gravity to accept gravity as the best explanation for the orbit of a planet around a sun; it doesn't matter if we know "what caused the designer" for design to be the best explanation of a thing. And so, with a level playing field and no bias, and with no expertise in any of the competing explanatory fields, what would move a layman from what is commonly accepted (even among those that advocate otherwise) as the overwhelming appearance of design to a belief that this apparent design is not really design at all? It seems to me that bias is the only reason left standing. Of course, we all have bias; some may be biased by an a priori foundation of Biblical inerrancy, and may then skew their inferences to agree with that bias; for others, it may be an a priori bias that no god exists, and so their inferences and reasoning are skewed towards the material.William J Murray
March 19, 2013
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Let's face it, there is a great deal of ideology behind Darwinism, and just because some Darwinist on this site or another says that it's all about the science, it doesn't mean that there is no ideology behind it. Something like a materialist, naturalist, and/or reductionist eye-glasses from which the world is viewed. The way I see it there are only two possible endings for a Darwinist after looking at all the material here that point out failures of Darwinism and support ID: 1- Remain ideologically committed to Darwinism just to keep the divine foot out of the door, and this is a position no different from the theism that they oppose. 2- Fall back on mystery, ie. "I don't know". But in this case then the more you "don't know" the more you should be open to other possibilities, including ID. Afterall, life implies information and information implies design. So why sever this rational, intuitive, and logical chain? The obvious answer is that the Darwinist is uncomfortable with its implications. So this might answer your question WJM as to why a typical atheist Darwinist accepts Darwinism despite its deficiencies and failures, it's because the metaphysical and theological implications of ID are far too great. Especially for a typical atheist who is getting uneasy at finding hints of God and design in the science that he hides behind after having dumped religion and God, probably due to mostly emotional and psychological reasons.Shogun
March 19, 2013
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Onlookers, note that LT, for a long time, has known of for instance this in context (among a great many sources if he were really seeking answers), which answers the questions he is posing above for what has to be rhetorical reasons. He is going in circles over largely old and long since adequately answered ground as though these were brand new issues. For just one case, here is Dembski on how design happens, in NFL, well past a decade ago:
. . . (1) A designer conceives a purpose. (2) To accomplish that purpose, the designer forms a plan. (3) To execute the plan, the designer specifies building materials and assembly instructions. (4) Finally, the designer or some surrogate applies the assembly instructions to the building materials. (No Free Lunch, p. xi. HT: ENV.)
None of this was novel in the late 90's either. Design is an ages long familiar concept that should not be treated as though it were a suspect novelty that has no clear meaning. Which simply gets us back to the sort of rhetorical games that are going on. KFkairosfocus
March 19, 2013
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F/N: Scientific explanations of the past are not syllogistic in form, but follow the logic of inference to best explanation or abduction; as has been repeatedly pointed out . . . yet another case of imposing an arbitrary and irrelevant demand: provide a deductive argument form for a case that is inescapably inductive, and KNOWN to be inductive. Observe, E => {F1, F2, . . . Fn}, where factual support is in counter-flow to the logic of implication. Thus, scientific explanation -- as Newton pointed out long ago -- is inevitably provisional. KFkairosfocus
March 19, 2013
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LarTanner, You stated that you don't have a substantive issue with the concept of FSCO/I, which is nice to hear. I'm curious about whether you accept design, in a practical sense, to be a real and detectable phenomenon. In other words, when we examine a piece of technology such as a microprocessor, are there objective and qualitative differences between it and something which is unarguably the product of chance and necessity, like rocks, riverbeds, crystals, etc. This might seem like a question with an obvious answer, but you might be surprised. Please note I'm not including biological phenomena here, but rather excluding them intentionally in this question. I suspect you would agree that there are qualitative, and perhaps even quantifiable differences between a Land Rover and that which is produced by geological processes. If that's the case, do you find anything significantly objectionable about the following deductive statements? 1) If designed things are merely natural things, then physical law can account for observed design. 2) physical law cannot account for observed design. 3) Therefore, designed things are not merely natural things. 1) Either physics and chemistry can alone account for jet airplanes, or there is another causal phenomenon which is required to account for them. 2) Physics and chemistry cannot alone account for jet airplanes. 3) Therefore, there is another causal phenomenon which is required to produce them. 1) If necessity, chance, and agency can account for most of what we observe, then together they form a mostly-complete causal account of reality. 2) Necessity, chance, and agency can account for most of what we observe. 3) Therefore, together they form a mostly-complete causal account of reality. You said,
Anyways, I think the real question is why anyone should accept ID claims that some natural features are best explained as products of intelligent design.
That's indeed a legitimate question, but I think it can only be argued with someone who accepts that design in general is both qualitative and, at least in many cases, quantifiable.
For me, I cannot even formulate the question without getting lost in all of the side questions that necessarily appear: how many designers? when?
I think it's important to realize that the question of "if" design occurred can be readily separated from how it occurred, or who did the designing. If you can picture a causal flow chart, with the first node asking, "Was this entity designed," and two edges for YES/NO and connecting to other nodes. The YES edge would connect to a node which might contain the question, "How was the design implemented," and a host of others. The NO edge would lead to a node which asked, "What natural processes were responsible for the entity's creation?" So there is a mutually exclusive and jointly exhaustive partition on the first node which asks, "Was this entity designed?" In other words, it would be nonsensical to ask, "How was the design implemented," if we followed the NO edge from the first node, as it would be to ask, "What natural processes were responsible for the entity's creation," if we followed the YES edge. We wouldn't ask what natural processes were responsible for the creation of the Land Rover, just as we wouldn't ask how the design of a river rock was implemented. How we approach the study of a specific entity can be greatly affected by whether it is the product of an intentional act of an intelligent agent.
what constitutes a design? can development incorporate both design and accident, and how can we tell? Is a design a separate thing from that which is the product of design? And so on.
These are fine questions that only matter if one accepts that design is an objectively real phenomenon; only then can the concept be extended to judgments about biological systems. Do we really see specified complexity in designs? Is irreducible complexity really a property of certain systems? Is measurable information present in human-designed constructs such as computer programs, and can it be distinguished from randomly generated sequences? If we can say so, then it becomes possible to explore whether those qualities exist in biology, and whether design is the best explanation for them.
Another issue is that, yes, people make sophisticated machines. But so what? Other species can use tools, and human technology is a relatively recent innovation in our development. Could life’s different machines have arisen and developed naturally over billions of years?
That last question is one of the questions that ID proponents want asked. As it stands, from our perspective, it looks as if the only allowable question is analogous to, "What natural processes were responsible for the creation of the Land Rover?"Chance Ratcliff
March 19, 2013
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