The Shroud of Turin makes way more sense than water on Mars

_{Denyse O'Leary

August 8, 2011

Extraterrestrial life}

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In “Water on Mars: Materialism’s Shroud of Turin” (Evolution News & Views, August 5, 2011), David Klinghoffer muses on the “water on Mars” cult:

The news in today’s Science about water on Mars and with that the consequent possibility of Martian microbial life — how many times have we heard this before? — offers what might be the materialist’s Shroud of Turin.

Actually, there is a lot more to be said for the Shroud of Turin. The Shroud exists. If water on Mars were like the Shroud of Turin, we would know it existed, but wouldn’t know if life resulted.

The question of life on Mars requires extremely generous assumptions about the origin as well as the subsequent evolution of life. Materialists assume that if you’ve got some water, life will result. So if there is life on Mars, it would make all the difference.

Klinghoffer, an Orthodox Jew, notes,

Actually, there’s better scientific evidence that the Shroud of Turn is the burial cloth of Jesus Christ than that life exists or has existed on Mars. After all, there is at least debatable evidence for the former but not as yet one single iota for the latter.

Sort of what we were trying to say, but …. also …

If the Shroud were like water on Mars: A whole bunch of people would be devoting themselves to looking for a Shroud of Turin that they are sure must exist.

Comments

Kuartus, Jesus did not need to have long hair. Jesus did not obey all the exact laws of the old testament the way they were traditionally practiced at that time. While he certainly up held most of the traditions, and spent much time in the temple etc, he actually came to bring a NEW covenant. For an example, this is why Jesus taught that you could do good works on the sabbath. He healed a man on the sabbath and was accused of breaking the law, but Christ then taught the parable of the lost the sheep and explained that the sabbath is made FOR MAN so that he can rest, but that if a good work needs to be done then it is ok to do "good" works on the sabbath. So to understand Jesus in light of the old covenant we have to understand that theologically Jesus came to up hold the teachings of old testament but also to improve it, and indeed make some changes. His long hair would not have been a major issue, and it would go reasonably well with his other teachings on the importance of things being about faith and the spirit as opposed to the earthly physical things of this world.Frost122585_{August 9, 2011
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kuartus, so you want to argue theology to refute a scientific point? Have you become a Darwinist? :)
Charles Darwin, Theologian: Major New Article on Darwin's Use of Theology in the Origin of Species - May 2011 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/05/charles_darwin_theologian_majo046391.html From Philosopher to Science Writer: The Dissemination of Evolutionary Thought - May 2011 Excerpt: The powerful theory of evolution hangs on this framework of thought that mandates naturalism. The science is weak but the metaphysics are strong. This is the key to understanding evolutionary thought. The weak arguments are scientific and the strong arguments, though filled with empirical observation and scientific jargon, are metaphysical. The stronger the argument, the more theological or philosophical. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2011/05/from-philosopher-to-science-writer.html
Anyways, If you want to go that route of using Theology to try to establish that the Shroud does not bear witness to the resurrection, especially with such a esoteric point as Jesus having long, or short, hair, the scripture surely does not give you unfettered right to make the claim. ============== Did Jesus have long hair?? The answers given to support Jesus having long hair were thought provoking. Many years ago I heard a statement, "If the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, then seek no other sense". It made my hmmm meter go off. I believe the verses in Leviticus speak of the pagan customs of shaving the temples as a sign of worship of their pagan deity. This practice is still in use today in the world. Leviticus 19:26-28 Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times. Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard. Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD. Leviticus 21:5 They shall not make baldness upon their head, neither shall they shave off the corner of their beard, nor make any cuttings in their flesh. Ezekiel 44:20 Neither shall they shave their heads, nor suffer their locks to grow long; they shall only poll their heads. Why is it such a big deal to take the Nazarite oath? I mean if the people (i.e. Males) wore their hair long then someone with long hair would not be a big deal. Numbers 6:1-7 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the LORD: He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried. All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk. All the days of the vow of his separation there shall no rasor come upon his head: until the days be fulfilled, in the which he separateth himself unto the LORD, he shall be holy, and shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow. All the days that he separateth himself unto the LORD he shall come at no dead body. He shall not make himself unclean for his father, or for his mother, for his brother, or for his sister, when they die: because the consecration of his God is upon his head. In the following verses we see Paul addressing the issue of long hair on men. I think he is talking about hair that is as long as a woman's. Thus his admonition. 1 Corinthians 11:14-15 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. In conclusion it boils down to what is short in regards to hair. I don't think the Israelites had shaved heads, nor do I think the wore their hair in whitewalls style. I think it was full and came down mid neck line, possibly covering the ears. But that is (just) speculation. http://www.avbbf.com/forum/thread-812.htmlbornagain77_{August 9, 2011
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bornagain, I have seen the scientific evidence for the authenticity of the shroud and I think it is impressive, but I'm still not convinced for the reasons I provided. Jesus did not have long hair. Long hair in males was a characteristic of pagan gods.kuartus_{August 9, 2011
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kuartus, OK theologically you object, but would you care to explain 'scientifically' how the image was formed? Challenge To Atheists To Reproduce The Shroud Of Turin - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6581758/bornagain77_{August 9, 2011
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I have doubts that the shroud of turin is an image of Christ. The image on the shroud has long hair. The bible says that it is dishonorable for a man to have long hair, so I doubt that Jesus had long hair. And the bible says that the ancient israelite priesthood was an earthly representation of God's priesthood, in which Jesus is the high priest. The old testament records that the high priest had to have short hair. So it stands to reason that The Christ also had short hair, not long like in the shroud image.kuartus_{August 9, 2011
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Doveton your stated objectives: 'actual exploration' Robots are doing fairly quite well at far less cost or risk; 'or mining' please do list the 'unobtanium' mineral that is to be obtained on Mars that cannot be mined here far more cheaply; 'or military use' please do tell of any enemies we have on Mars; ,, and to drive another the nail in the coffin for your initial fantasy of colonizing Mars, which you wisely chose not to debate anymore, let's ask ourselves how long it would take to 'terra-form' a planet, similar to earth, from a toxic wasteland, to a place suitable to support advanced life??? Anthropic Principle: A Precise Plan for Humanity By Hugh Ross Excerpt: Brandon Carter, the British mathematician who coined the term “anthropic principle” (1974), noted the strange inequity of a universe that spends about 15 billion years “preparing” for the existence of a creature that has the potential to survive no more than 10 million years (optimistically).,, Carter and (later) astrophysicists John Barrow and Frank Tipler demonstrated that the inequality exists for virtually any conceivable intelligent species under any conceivable life-support conditions. Roughly 15 billion years represents a minimum preparation time for advanced life: 11 billion toward formation of a stable planetary system, one with the right chemical and physical conditions for primitive life, and four billion more years toward preparation of a planet within that system, one richly layered with the biodeposits necessary for civilized intelligent life. Even this long time and convergence of “just right” conditions reflect miraculous efficiency. Moreover the physical and biological conditions necessary to support an intelligent civilized species do not last indefinitely. They are subject to continuous change: the Sun continues to brighten, Earth’s rotation period lengthens, Earth’s plate tectonic activity declines, and Earth’s atmospheric composition varies. In just 10 million years or less, Earth will lose its ability to sustain human life. In fact, this estimate of the human habitability time window may be grossly optimistic. In all likelihood, a nearby supernova eruption, a climatic perturbation, a social or environmental upheaval, or the genetic accumulation of negative mutations will doom the species to extinction sometime sooner than twenty thousand years from now. http://christiangodblog.blogspot.com/2006_12_01_archive.htmlbornagain77_{August 9, 2011
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Bornagain77,
Doveton, If I were basing my criticism, of your materialistic fantasy, entirely on skepticism instead of reason, as atheists continually do to ID, then you would have a legitimate gripe with your cited quotes, but since I am basing my criticism on what we know to be true from science, then your gripe has no foundation, and it is up to counter the evidence I have cited with your own scientific evidence to show your fantasy to be plausible, instead of just ignoring the evidence as you have done.
As the quotes I provided (along with hundreds, if not thousands, I did not post) demonstrate, nearly all nay-sayers believe their objections are based on reason. In fact, not a single issue you raise outside of the Biosphere work even impacts actual exploration or mining or military use, so your objections aren't even realistic. So no, your criticism is not based on sound reasoning at all given that the search for liquid water on Mars is useful for a variety of activities beyond setting up a colony there.Doveton_{August 9, 2011
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Doveton, If I were basing my criticism, of your materialistic fantasy, entirely on skepticism instead of reason, as atheists continually do to ID, then you would have a legitimate gripe with your cited quotes, but since I am basing my criticism on what we know to be true from science, then your gripe has no foundation, and it is up to counter the evidence I have cited with your own scientific evidence to show your fantasy to be plausible, instead of just ignoring the evidence as you have done.bornagain77_{August 9, 2011
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Bornagain,
Doveton, people who think that merely finding water on mars will open the door for establishing long term human colonization of that planet are living in a fantasy land!!! i,e, Even if we could transport the massive amount of material needed to establish a colony, there is no solid evidence that we can set up a successful artificial ecosystem for any long term survival!!!
What can you conceive more silly and extravagant than to suppose a man racking his brains, and studying night and day how to fly? — William Law, 'A Serious Call to a Devout and Holly Life XI,' 1728. What can be more palpably absurd than the prospect held out of locomotives travelling twice as fast as stagecoaches? — The Quarterly Review, March 1825. Railroad carriages are pulled at the enormous speed of fifteen miles per hour by engines which, in addition to endangering life and limb of passengers, roar and snort their way through the countryside, setting fire to the crops, scaring the livestock, and frightening women and children. The Almighty certainly never intended that people should travel at such break-neck speed. — President Martin Van Buren, 1829 Rail travel at high speed is not possible because passengers, unable to breathe, would die of asphyxia. — Dr. Dionysus Lardner, 1830 And yet... Science has not yet mastered prophecy. We predict too much for the next year and yet far too little for the next ten. — Neil Armstrong, speech to joint session of Congress, 16 September 1969. But hey...at least you're in good company with the nay-sayers, BA77. I, otoh, will stick with those of vision: In spite of the opinions of certain narrow-minded people who would shut up the human race upon this globe, we shall one day travel to the Moon, the planets, and the stars with the same facility, rapidity and certainty as we now make the ocean voyage from Liverpool to New York. — Jules Verne, From the Earth to the Moon, 1865Doveton_{August 9, 2011
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Just how extremely balanced the ecology of Earth is, is completely missed by materialists! (save for when they want to get on their Global Warming crusade!) Chemical Cycles: Long term chemical balance is essential for life on earth. Complex symbiotic chemical cycles keep the amount of elements on the earth surface in relatively perfect balance and thus in steady supply to the higher life forms that depend on them to remain stable. This is absolutely essential for the higher life forms to exist on Earth for any extended period of time. http://www.uen.org/themepark/cycles/chemical.shtml Carbon Cycle - Illustration http://www.swiftenterprises.net/images/Charts/Large/Carbon_Cycle.png God's Creation - Symbiotic (Cooperative) Relationships - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4023110 Engineering and Science Magazine - Caltech - March 2010 Excerpt: “Without these microbes, the planet would run out of biologically available nitrogen in less than a month,” Realizations like this are stimulating a flourishing field of “geobiology” – the study of relationships between life and the earth. One member of the Caltech team commented, “If all bacteria and archaea just stopped functioning, life on Earth would come to an abrupt halt.” Microbes are key players in earth’s nutrient cycles. Dr. Orphan added, “...every fifth breath you take, thank a microbe.” Planet's Nitrogen Cycle Overturned - Oct. 2009 Excerpt: "Ammonia is a waste product that can be toxic to animals.,,, archaea can scavenge nitrogen-containing ammonia in the most barren environments of the deep sea, solving a long-running mystery of how the microorganisms can survive in that environment. Archaea therefore not only play a role, but are central to the planetary nitrogen cycles on which all life depends.,,,the organism can survive on a mere whiff of ammonia – 10 nanomolar concentration, equivalent to a teaspoon of ammonia salt in 10 million gallons of water." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090930132656.htm The interplay of the biogeochemical (life and earth) processes that produce this balanced, life enabling, oxygen rich, atmosphere are very complex: The Life and Death of Oxygen - 2008 Excerpt: “The balance between burial of organic matter and its oxidation appears to have been tightly controlled over the past 500 million years.” “The presence of O2 in the atmosphere requires an imbalance between oxygenic photosynthesis and aerobic respiration on time scales of millions of years hence, to generate an oxidized atmosphere, more organic matter must be buried (by tectonic activity) than respired.” - Paul Falkowski http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev200810.htm#20081024a The Oxygen and Carbon Dioxide Cycle - video http://videos.howstuffworks.com/hsw/7942-abiotic-factors-the-oxygen-carbon-dioxide-cycle-video.htm Microbial life can easily live without us; we, however, cannot survive without the global catalysis and environmental transformations it provides. - Paul G. Falkowski - Professor Geological Sciences - Rutgers http://www.bioinf.uni-leipzig.de/~ilozada/SOMA_astrobiology/taller_astrobiologia/material_cds/pdfs_bibliografia/Biogeochemical_cycles_Delong_2008.pdf Many more examples of extremely finely-tuned 'chemical cycles', which enable higher life forms to survive for extended periods on any earth-like planet can be found here: Does the Probability for ETI = 1? Excerpt; On the Reasons To Believe website we document that the probability a randomly selected planet would possess all the characteristics intelligent life requires is less than 10^-304. A recent update that will be published with my next book, Hidden Purposes: Why the Universe Is the Way It Is, puts that probability at 10^-1054. http://www.reasons.org/does-probability-eti-1 Linked from "Appendix C" in Why the Universe Is the Way It Is Probability for occurrence of all 816 parameters ? 10^-1333 dependency factors estimate ? 10^324 longevity requirements estimate ? 10^45 Probability for occurrence of all 816 parameters ? 10^-1054 Maximum possible number of life support bodies in observable universe ? 10^22 Thus, less than 1 chance in 10^1032 exists that even one such life-support body would occur anywhere in the universe without invoking divine miracles. http://www.reasons.org/files/compendium/compendium_part3.pdfbornagain77_{August 9, 2011
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Just how extremely balanced the ecology of Earth is, is completely missed by materialists! (save for when they want to get on their Global Warming crusade!) Chemical Cycles: Long term chemical balance is essential for life on earth. Complex symbiotic chemical cycles keep the amount of elements on the earth surface in relatively perfect balance and thus in steady supply to the higher life forms that depend on them to remain stable. This is absolutely essential for the higher life forms to exist on Earth for any extended period of time. http://www.uen.org/themepark/cycles/chemical.shtml Carbon Cycle - Illustration http://www.swiftenterprises.net/images/Charts/Large/Carbon_Cycle.png God's Creation - Symbiotic (Cooperative) Relationships - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4023110 Engineering and Science Magazine - Caltech - March 2010 Excerpt: “Without these microbes, the planet would run out of biologically available nitrogen in less than a month,” Realizations like this are stimulating a flourishing field of “geobiology” – the study of relationships between life and the earth. One member of the Caltech team commented, “If all bacteria and archaea just stopped functioning, life on Earth would come to an abrupt halt.” Microbes are key players in earth’s nutrient cycles. Dr. Orphan added, “...every fifth breath you take, thank a microbe.” http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev201003.htm#20100316a Planet's Nitrogen Cycle Overturned - Oct. 2009 Excerpt: "Ammonia is a waste product that can be toxic to animals.,,, archaea can scavenge nitrogen-containing ammonia in the most barren environments of the deep sea, solving a long-running mystery of how the microorganisms can survive in that environment. Archaea therefore not only play a role, but are central to the planetary nitrogen cycles on which all life depends.,,,the organism can survive on a mere whiff of ammonia – 10 nanomolar concentration, equivalent to a teaspoon of ammonia salt in 10 million gallons of water." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090930132656.htm The interplay of the biogeochemical (life and earth) processes that produce this balanced, life enabling, oxygen rich, atmosphere are very complex: The Life and Death of Oxygen - 2008 Excerpt: “The balance between burial of organic matter and its oxidation appears to have been tightly controlled over the past 500 million years.” “The presence of O2 in the atmosphere requires an imbalance between oxygenic photosynthesis and aerobic respiration on time scales of millions of years hence, to generate an oxidized atmosphere, more organic matter must be buried (by tectonic activity) than respired.” - Paul Falkowski http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev200810.htm#20081024a The Oxygen and Carbon Dioxide Cycle - video http://videos.howstuffworks.com/hsw/7942-abiotic-factors-the-oxygen-carbon-dioxide-cycle-video.htm Microbial life can easily live without us; we, however, cannot survive without the global catalysis and environmental transformations it provides. - Paul G. Falkowski - Professor Geological Sciences - Rutgers http://www.bioinf.uni-leipzig.de/~ilozada/SOMA_astrobiology/taller_astrobiologia/material_cds/pdfs_bibliografia/Biogeochemical_cycles_Delong_2008.pdf Many more examples of extremely finely-tuned 'chemical cycles', which enable higher life forms to survive for extended periods on any earth-like planet can be found here: Does the Probability for ETI = 1? Excerpt; On the Reasons To Believe website we document that the probability a randomly selected planet would possess all the characteristics intelligent life requires is less than 10^-304. A recent update that will be published with my next book, Hidden Purposes: Why the Universe Is the Way It Is, puts that probability at 10^-1054. http://www.reasons.org/does-probability-eti-1 Linked from "Appendix C" in Why the Universe Is the Way It Is Probability for occurrence of all 816 parameters ? 10^-1333 dependency factors estimate ? 10^324 longevity requirements estimate ? 10^45 Probability for occurrence of all 816 parameters ? 10^-1054 Maximum possible number of life support bodies in observable universe ? 10^22 Thus, less than 1 chance in 10^1032 exists that even one such life-support body would occur anywhere in the universe without invoking divine miracles. http://www.reasons.org/files/compendium/compendium_part3.pdfbornagain77_{August 9, 2011
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Doveton, people who think that merely finding water on mars will open the door for establishing long term human colonization of that planet are living in a fantasy land!!! i,e, Even if we could transport the massive amount of material needed to establish a colony, there is no solid evidence that we can set up a successful artificial ecosystem for any long term survival!!!: Biosphere II - What Went Wrong? Excerpt: As an attempt to create a balanced and self-sustaining replica of Earth’s ecosystems, Biosphere II was a miserable (and expensive) failure. Numerous problems plagued the crew almost from the very beginning. Of these, a mysterious loss of oxygen and widespread extinction were the most notable. Catching Their Breath Starting when the crew members were first sealed in, Biosphere II experienced a constant and puzzling decline in the percentage of oxygen in the atmosphere. It was initially hoped that the system was merely stabilizing itself, but as time passed it became increasingly clear the something was amiss. Not quite 18 months into the experiment, when oxygen levels dropped to the point where the crew could barely function, the outside managers decided to pump oxygen into the system so they could complete the full two years as planned. Obviously, Biosphere II was not self-sustaining if outside oxygen had to be added in order for the crew to survive. The reasons behind this flaw in the project were not fully understood until some time later. As it turned out, the problem had more to do with carbon dioxide than with oxygen. Biosphere II’s soil, especially in the rain forest and savanna areas, is unusually rich in organic material. Microbes were metabolizing this material at an abnormally high rate, in the process of which they used up a lot of oxygen and produced a lot of carbon dioxide. The plants in Biosphere II should have been able to use this excess carbon dioxide to replace the oxygen through photosynthesis, except that another chemical reaction was also taking place. A vast majority of Biosphere II was built out of concrete, which contains calcium hydroxide. Instead of being consumed by the plants to produce more oxygen, the excess carbon dioxide was reacting with calcium hydroxide in the concrete walls to form calcium carbonate and water. Ca(OH)2 + CO2 --> CaCO3 + H2O This hypothesis was confirmed when scientists tested the walls and found that they contained about ten times the amount of calcium carbonate on the inner surfaces as they did on the outer surfaces. All of the walls in Biosphere II are now coated with a protective layer, but oxygen levels continue to be somewhat problematic. Walking a Tightrope The designers of Biosphere II included a carefully chosen variety of plant, animal, and insect species. They anticipated that some species would not survive, but the eventual extinction rate was much higher than expected. Of the 25 small vertebrates with which the project began, only 6 did not die out by the mission's end. Almost all of the insect species went extinct, including those which had been included for the purpose of pollinating plants. This caused its own problems, since the plants could no longer propagate themselves. At the same time, some species absolutely thrived in this man-made environment. Crazy ants, cockroaches, and katydids ran rampant, while certain vines (like morning glories) threatened to choke out every other kind of plant. The crew members were forced to put vast amounts of energy into simply maintaining their food crops. Biosphere II could not sustain a balanced ecosystem, and therefore failed to fulfill its goals. Other Problems Biosphere II's water systems became polluted with too many nutrients. The crew had to clean their water by running it over mats of algae, which they later dried and stored. Also, as a symptom of further atmospheric imbalances, the level of dinitrogen oxide became dangerously high. At these levels, there was a risk of brain damage due to a reduction in the synthesis of vitamin B12. And of course, there were inevitable disputes among the crew, as well as among those running the project from the outside. http://biology.kenyon.edu/slonc/bio3/2000projects/carroll_d_walker_e/whatwentwrong.htmlbornagain77_{August 9, 2011
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Frost,
Water on Mars?! … Who cares.
Well, anyone thinking of long-range manned space travel cares. Liquid water on other worlds, aside from indicating a possibility of life, is a necessity for deep space exploration in the long run. Further, it's also a necessity for any kind of future extraterrestrial base establishment, be it purely research, mining, terraforming, or military. I am in partial agreement with Bornagain - the Shroud and water on Mars research are not even in the same category; by comparison to finding liquid water on Mars, the Shroud of Turin is a tourist dollar store trinket.Doveton_{August 9, 2011
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,,,Yet the Shroud gives sure clues for the Theist,,, How Did The Image Form On The Shroud? - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045581 "The shroud image is made from tiny fibres that are (each) 1/10th of a human hair. The picture elements are actually randomly distributed like the dots in your newspaper, photograph or magazine photograph. To do this you would need an incredibly accurate atomic laser. This technology does NOT exist (even to this day)." Kevin Moran - Optical Engineer "the closest science can come to explaining how the image of the Man in the Shroud got there is by comparing the situation to a controlled burst of high-intensity radiation similar to the Hiroshima bomb explosion which "printed" images of incinerated people on building walls." Frank Tribbe - Leading Scholar And Author On Shroud Research Even with the advantage of all our advanced space-age technology at their fingertips, all scientists can guess is that it was some type of electro-magnetic radiation (light) which is not natural to this world. Kevin Moran, a scientist working on the mysterious '3D' nature of the Shroud image, states the 'supernatural' explanation this way: "It is not a continuum or spherical-front radiation that made the image, as visible or UV light. It is not the X-ray radiation that obeys the one over R squared law that we are so accustomed to in medicine. It is more unique. It is suggested that the image was formed when a high-energy particle struck the fiber and released radiation within the fiber at a speed greater that the local speed of light. Since the fiber acts as a light pipe, this energy moved out through the fiber until it encountered an optical discontinuity, then it slowed to the local speed of light and dispersed. The fact that the pixels don’t fluoresce suggests that the conversion to their now brittle dehydrated state occurred instantly and completely so no partial products remain to be activated by the ultraviolet light. This suggests a quantum event where a finite amount of energy transferred abruptly. The fact that there are images front and back suggests the radiating particles were released along the gravity vector. The radiation pressure may also help explain why the blood was "lifted cleanly" from the body as it transformed to a resurrected state." http://www.shroudstory.com/natural.htm If scientists want to find the source for the supernatural light which made the "3D - photographic negative" image on the Shroud, I suggest they look to the thousands of documented Near-Death Experiences (NDE's) in Judeo-Christian cultures. It is in their testimonies that you will find mention of an indescribably bright 'Light' or 'Being of Light' who is always described as being of a much brighter intensity of light than the people had ever seen before. All people who have been in the presence of 'The Being of Light' while having a deep NDE have no doubt whatsoever that the 'The Being of Light' they were in the presence of is none other than 'The Lord God Almighty' of heaven and earth. In The Presence Of Almighty God - The NDE of Mickey Robinson - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045544 The Day I Died - Part 4 of 6 - The NDE of Pam Reynolds - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045560 Another very interesting point about the Shroud is, since the Shroud had to be extremely close to the body when the image was made, and also considering the lack of any distinctive shadow patterns on the image, it is apparent the only place this supernatural light could have possibly come from, that made the image on the Shroud, was directly from the body itself ! Yes, you read that last sentence right: THE SOURCE OF LIGHT WAS THE BODY ITSELF !!! God's crowning achievement for this universe was not when He created this universe. God’s crowning achievement for this universe was when He Himself inhabited the human body He had purposely created the whole universe for, to sanctify human beings unto Himself through the death and resurrection of his “Son” Jesus Christ. This is truly something which should fill anyone who reads this with awe. The wonder of it all is something I can scarcely begin to understand much less write about. Thus, I will finish this portion of my paper with a scripture. Hebrews 2:14-15 "Since we, God's children, are human beings - made of flesh and blood - He became flesh and blood too by being born in human form; for only as a human being could He die and in dying break the power of the devil who had the power of death. Only in that way could He deliver those who through fear of death have been living all their lives as slaves to constant dread." This following recent video revealed a very surprising holographic image that was found on the Shroud: Turin Shroud Hologram Reveals The Words 'The Lamb' - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041205bornagain77_{August 9, 2011
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I think the Shroud directly addresses the search for life on Mars in a rather direct way. For both the Shroud and the search for life on mars directly involve beliefs of exactly how life comes from non-life, The Theist believes God is the source of all life, whereas the materialist believes that life 'emerges' from a material basis,,, Thus the bottom of man's search for life on Mars is the burning question 'Where did life come from in the first place?', And despite what materialists say, life coming from non-life, as far as what the science is overwhelmingly telling us, can rightly be thought of as involving the miraculous; The Theist holds the Intellectual High-Ground - March 2011 Excerpt: To get a range on the enormous challenges involved in bridging the gaping chasm between non-life and life, consider the following: “The difference between a mixture of simple chemicals and a bacterium, is much more profound than the gulf between a bacterium and an elephant.” (Dr. Robert Shapiro, Professor Emeritus of Chemistry, NYU) http://www.faithfulnews.com/contents/view_content2/49631/rabbi-moshe-averick-the-theist-holds-the-intellectual-high-ground-apologetics-christian-apologetics-defending-gospel Signature in the Cell - Book Review - Ken Peterson Excerpt: If we assume some minimally complex cell requires 250 different proteins then the probability of this arrangement happening purely by chance is one in 10 to the 164th multiplied by itself 250 times or one in 10 to the 41,000th power. http://www.spectrummagazine.org/reviews/book_reviews/2009/10/06/signature_cell In fact years ago Fred Hoyle arrived at approximately the same number, one chance in 10^40,000, for life spontaneously arising. From this number, Fred Hoyle compared the random emergence of the simplest bacterium on earth to the likelihood “a tornado sweeping through a junkyard might assemble a Boeing 747 therein”. Fred Hoyle also compared the chance of obtaining just one single functioning protein molecule, by chance combination of amino acids, to a solar system packed full of blind men solving Rubik’s Cube simultaneously. Professor Harold Morowitz shows the Origin of Life 'problem' escalates dramatically over the 1 in 10^40,000 figure when working from a thermodynamic perspective,: "The probability for the chance of formation of the smallest, simplest form of living organism known is 1 in 10^340,000,000. This number is 10 to the 340 millionth power! The size of this figure is truly staggering since there is only supposed to be approximately 10^80 (10 to the 80th power) electrons in the whole universe!" (Professor Harold Morowitz, Energy Flow In Biology pg. 99, Biophysicist of George Mason University) Dr. Don Johnson lays out some of the probabilities for life in this following video: Probabilities Of Life - Don Johnson PhD. - 38 minute mark of video a typical functional protein - 1 part in 10^175 the required enzymes for life - 1 part in 10^40,000 a living self replicating cell - 1 part in 10^340,000,000 http://www.vimeo.com/11706014 Dr. Morowitz did another probability calculation working from the thermodynamic perspective with a already existing cell and came up with this number: DID LIFE START BY CHANCE? Excerpt: Molecular biophysicist, Horold Morowitz (Yale University), calculated the odds of life beginning under natural conditions (spontaneous generation). He calculated, if one were to take the simplest living cell and break every chemical bond within it, the odds that the cell would reassemble under ideal natural conditions (the best possible chemical environment) would be one chance in 10^100,000,000,000. You will have probably have trouble imagining a number so large, so Hugh Ross provides us with the following example. If all the matter in the Universe was converted into building blocks of life, and if assembly of these building blocks were attempted once a microsecond for the entire age of the universe. Then instead of the odds being 1 in 10^100,000,000,000, they would be 1 in 10^99,999,999,916 (also of note: 1 with 100 billion zeros following would fill approx. 20,000 encyclopedias) http://members.tripod.com/~Black_J/chance.html And I certainly do not understand the materialists obsession with finding water on Mars for water is considered a 'universal solvent' which is a very thermodynamic obeying and thus origin of life defying fact. Abiogenic Origin of Life: A Theory in Crisis - Arthur V. Chadwick, Ph.D. Excerpt: The synthesis of proteins and nucleic acids from small molecule precursors represents one of the most difficult challenges to the model of prebiological evolution. There are many different problems confronted by any proposal. Polymerization is a reaction in which water is a product. Thus it will only be favored in the absence of water. The presence of precursors in an ocean of water favors depolymerization of any molecules that might be formed. Careful experiments done in an aqueous solution with very high concentrations of amino acids demonstrate the impossibility of significant polymerization in this environment. A thermodynamic analysis of a mixture of protein and amino acids in an ocean containing a 1 molar solution of each amino acid (100,000,000 times higher concentration than we inferred to be present in the prebiological ocean) indicates the concentration of a protein containing just 100 peptide bonds (101 amino acids) at equilibrium would be 10^-338 molar. Just to make this number meaningful, our universe may have a volume somewhere in the neighborhood of 10^85 liters. At 10^-338 molar, we would need an ocean with a volume equal to 10^229 universes (100, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000) just to find a single molecule of any protein with 100 peptide bonds. So we must look elsewhere for a mechanism to produce polymers. It will not happen in the ocean. http://origins.swau.edu/papers/life/chadwick/default.htmlbornagain77_{August 9, 2011
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If modern day Christians need/require things like a Shroud of Turin, crosses, statutues bleeding, etc to believe, then could not they also be considered materialists as well ???Eocene_{August 9, 2011
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Woodford, Apologies for the remark,you are of course correct.velikovskys_{August 8, 2011
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V: "I agree with Klinghoffer that that since we have spent at least 40years exploring Mars the question whether there is or was life on Mars has been answered, time to move on." Well, we've been exploring the bottom of the ocean for hundreds of years, and forests and ice sheets - and we are still learning new things all the time, even discovering new species! Perhaps we should also give up on finding a cure for cancer too because we've been at it so long? I suspect there is much more to be learned about Mars, and as long as it piques some scientists curiosity and wonder, they are not just going to simply give up.woodford_{August 8, 2011
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Thanks Mung, but I was really more interested in your own personal experience and how it happened for you, but I guess this is something personal you don't wish to share.woodford_{August 8, 2011
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You can meet Jesus too. Come Meet Jesus: An Invitation from Pope Benedict XVI If you were one of the lucky Harold Camping followers back in May you could have met Jesus in the air. Or not.
Harold Camping didn`t hedge his bets, he emphatically and unequivocally prophesied that the Rapture would take place May, 21, 2011. The elderly preacher stated, time after time again, that believers would be physically removed from the Earth to meet Jesus Christ in the air. Camping wasn`t speaking metaphorically, he was convinced that the Rapture would be a physical and historical event.
Harold Camping: My Bad! I Miscalculated! New Rapture Date Oct 21, 2011
"The evangelical Christian broadcaster whose much-ballyhooed Judgement Day prophecy went conspicuously unfulfilled on Saturday has a simple explanation for what went wrong -- he miscalculated. Instead of the world physically coming to an end on May 21 with a great, cataclysmic earthquake, as he had predicted, Harold Camping, 89, said he now believes his forecast is playing out `spiritually,` with the actual apocalypse set to occur five months later, on October 21."
Mung_{August 8, 2011
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Just to be clear,this is not about whether there is water on Mars, there is. The point is whether there is liquid water on the surface of Mars. I agree with Klinghoffer that that since we have spent at least 40years exploring Mars the question whether there is or was life on Mars has been answered, time to move on.velikovskys_{August 8, 2011
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Mung, can you elaborate more? What do you mean by "meeting" Jesus and "seeing" him to the extent you feel competent to compare his likeness to that of the Shroud?woodford_{August 8, 2011
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mung,, that is what people say who see God in their near-Death Experiences; Check out this guy: The Day I Died - NDE Documentary Part 6 of 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVjfhsBaupsbornagain77_{August 8, 2011
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It was a life changing experience!Mung_{August 8, 2011
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Mung, is that all you are going to tell us? 'I met Jesus, and that don’t look like him.' A few details would be nice as to how you saw Jesus. In a vision? Deep meditation? In Wal-Mart? I mean if you are serious that should be truly a life changing experience! Don't be so shy, do tell. ========= Charlie Sheen could definitely use some of your humbleness: Winning - a Song by Charlie Sheen - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QS0q3mGPGgbornagain77_{August 8, 2011
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@7- Actually, the man in the image on the Shroud looks a little different than what we see because the cloth is 2D where the body wwas 3D- thus what we actually see is sort of a compressed representation of what Christ may have actually looked like. Also, I wanted to add that the theological reasoning for the existence of the Shroud of Turin is cogent and strong. It makes sense in light of the Gospel account of the doubting Thomas that God would leave behind some evidence of the actual resurrection for those needing something tangible to base or strengthen their faith on. Personally, I always had the feeling that if Jesus existed and was the true Son of God, then there would be some piece of strong physical evidence left behind to affirm this. That is just a personal feeling I have always had even before I read of Thomas or knew about the Shroud of Turin.Frost122585_{August 8, 2011
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I met Jesus, and that don't look like him.Mung_{August 8, 2011
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Also I just wanted to remind people that Barrie Schwortz, the documenting photographer for STURP (Shroud Of Turin Research Project) is convinced not only that it is an athentic 1st century relic but that it is the burial cloth of Jesus Christ as well. It is very interesting to talk to a Jewish man who also thinks the burial cloth of Jesus Christ exists, despite all the controversy. But the Shroud is much like ID in many ways. First of all the Shroud is one essential relic where religion and science meet face to face. Just so, ID is the one sceintific/philosphical issue where sceince and religion meet face to face. But the reason Barrie accepts the Shroud as authentic is because we have no explanation of how the image got on the cloth. That is, every sceintific explanation of how the image got on the cloth has been discredited. It is a long discussion but just about everyone has taken a shot at trying to reproduce the Shroud and no one has been successful to this day. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTkyaYhAlWc&feature=channel_video_title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjxZFfHVtsE&feature=channel_video_title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4ce-Mw-UfM&feature=related Just as one example, you would have to be a fool to think these to images are equivalent: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/06/article-0-06B5D747000005DC-778_634x692.jpg Are they kidding me? The one on the right has "dots" for eyes and reminds me more of Ozzy Osbourne than the Lord... Plus the real Shroud on the left looks more like a photograph where the copy looks like a painting/cartoon (which it is). Not to mention the 3D qualities are not nearly as accuate and good. And Keep in mind that even if the Shroud was made in the 13th century (which it definetly was not) the artist who made it would not have needed to make such an amazingly accurate image because there was no protography at this time- and certainly the masses, who it would have been made to fool, would not have been able to see the details at all since they too did not have cameras. Also the image on the Shroud is so faint that no artist would paint somthing that faint. A real fake would have been made with a much more visable and detailed image- not a faint negative image that just happens to have incredibly accurate 3D imaging information- only to be discovered 600 years later...Frost122585_{August 8, 2011
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Just click on my SN here and you can see all the videos I have posted on the Shroud. I have spent a good bit of time talking to Barrie Schwortz, one of the world's foremost experts on the Shroud and a Jewish man at that!. The Shroud of Turin goes back well before the 1988 Carbon 14 tests suggested. The Pray Codex: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pray_Codex depicts what looks very much like the Shroud but even has a series of holes on, in an L shaped pattern, that are 100% identical to the holes found on the Shroud. The pray codex predate the EARLIEST C14 test by ~100 years. Also the Cloth of Edessa: http://www.shroudstory.com/early.htm which probably is the Shroud goes way back to about 544 AD. So the question is where was the Shroud before 544 AD? It is reasonable to presume that since the early Christian/Catholic Church was highly persecuted, that the Shroud was kept hidden and hence out of the documented historical record. A treasure that great certainly would have been handled and protected with the utmost carefulness and precaution. Water on Mars?! ... Who cares.Frost122585_{August 8, 2011
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Of note: although not exhaustive, here are few sites that list the peer-reviewed papers on the Shroud: Bibliography of Published STURP Papers http://www.shroud.com/78papers.htm Scientific Papers and Articles on Shroud http://www.shroud.com/papers.htmbornagain77_{August 8, 2011
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