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Good and bad arguments for fine-tuning?

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Dr Sheldon
Rob Sheldon

Canadian cosmologist Don Page has written, “In summary, I think the evidence from fine tuning is ambiguous, since the probabilities depend on the models.”

Some have questioned this, and I asked physicist Rob Sheldon who writes to say,

Don Page is exactly correct. Many, though not all, of these fine-tuning arguments have no way to measure the domain, and without that, specifying the range doesn’t turn it into fine tuning.

Let us suppose that your name is Robert Green, and you Google your name and find out that there are exactly 256 Robert Greens in the phone book. Is this evidence of fine tuning or not?

You know the range–256–but you don’t know the domain–the number of potential Robert Greens in the universe. Now suppose your name were Englebert Humperdinck, and you discovered there’s another one in the phone book. Would that be fine tuning? Let us further suppose that this EH was listed as living in a house that you moved out of 15 years ago, would that remove the fine tuning? So you see, it really does matter how big the domain is, how big is the pool of potential-EH minus defined-EH.

In the same way, when someone tells you that the proton mass to electron mass ratio must be accurate to 3 parts per thousand or else life is impossible, is that fine tuning or not? IF it is 3 parts per million for every other physical constant, then this one might not be so finely tuned after all. But wait, parts-per-million of what? It has to be compared to something, and by their nature, physical constants are in different units which makes it hard to intercompare them.

Now when the expansion energy of the universe (kinetic energy) equals the gravitational potential energy of the universe to one part in 10^60, that is measured in the same energy units. That’s clearly fine tuning or a law, but not an accident. So there are valid examples of fine tuning, which may turn
into some deep physical insight in the future, but for the moment can only be described as not-coincidence. But there are more invalid fine tuning examples being advertised than there are valid ones, which was Don Page’s point.

Thoughts?

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Comments
Zachriel, "Thought the question was cosmic fine-tuning." Yes, but you cannot claim that the laws of nature are enough to explain their own existence. You, guys, seem to be advocating for naturalism everywhere on this blog, is that not right? The problem is that naturalism cannot address the question of origins. This is shown by biosemiosis, i.e. the use of material symbol systems in living nature. Taken more broadly, this also relates to fine-tuning (the anthropic principle). Because it concerns the properties of proteins, hence the properties of carbon.EugeneS
August 14, 2015
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Jim Fit: The beginning of everything physical has been scientifically established, this fact destroys physical necessity as an ultimate explanation. A Gap argument. If you mean the Big Bang, philosophy hasn't stopped cosmologists from exploring its causes and effects. Just because current understanding of physics breaks down at the singularity doesn't mean physics can never understand it.Zachriel
August 14, 2015
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Zachriel
Not sure either position can be supported definitively, at least from a scientific perspective.
The beginning of everything physical has been scientifically established, this fact destroys physical necessity as an ultimate explanation.JimFit
August 13, 2015
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EugeneS: The problem of sign is a clear indication that physical necessity and chance are not enough to explain information processing that occurs in nature. Are we missing something? Thought the question was cosmic fine-tuning.Zachriel
August 13, 2015
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bornagain77:
Moreover, the most accurate instrument ever built by man is, the last time I checked, 1 part in 10^22 for a gravity wave detector, which falls short of the cosmological constant by 1 in 10^98 orders of magnitude.
Do you understand the difference between measuring something's value as opposed to that measurement's relationship to other measured values? Your ability to measure a voltage in a circuit has nothing to do with its state ( provided you understand that the impedance of your probes are a load on the point that is being measured, meaning it's a different value when you are measuring it than when you are not). The better you measuring equipment, the closer you'll get to the real values, but that has nothing to do with the relationships of those values (again taking into account the impedance of your probes). The fact that you can measure something with great accuracy does not affect how that measured something relates to other values ( again taking into account the change your measuring equipment will force onto that relationship). Our argument is about the relationship of values, not the measurement of values. If I put a probe with a 10M impedance at a few points in a system, I will get different measurements than if I used a 100K probe, but the relationships of those measurements should remain the same, ( provided the loading of the probes is taken into account for each measurement).Carpathian
August 13, 2015
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bornagain77, Unless of course....
Unless the designer is someone who can just snap their fingers and say, “Let there be light”.
Carpathian
August 13, 2015
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bornagain77:
And there you have it folks. Carp, if he could possibly create a universe, knows without a doubt that he could create a universe better than God did it.
How do you get that from what I said? The universe is billions and billions of times more complex than any computer program. That's why I would spend less time on my program than anyone would creating a universe. It amazes me how quickly the ID side will focus on the people on the other side of the debate and drop the actual topic being debated.Carpathian
August 13, 2015
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Zachriel #28, What about the problem of sign/representation? Fundamentally, there are two things here: (1) signs and their referents may be objectively scientifically identified in nature. Both living organisms (all without exception) and communication systems created by human or animal intelligence can be classified as symbolically controlled systems. (2) between a sign (a physical object) and its referent (also a physical object or effect) there is no necessary law-like physical causal relationship. Equally well in a communication system another object could have been chosen as a representation of the same referent without breaking any physical law. What's more, the multiplicity of equilibrium states is the key physical condition to make communication a real possibility. Without it, there is no room for choosing, prescribing an object to be a representation of a given referent. Instead there is only room for necessity of the physical laws, which precludes such a system from being able to transfer information. The problem of sign is a clear indication that physical necessity and chance are not enough to explain information processing that occurs in nature. The problem of sign cannot be resolved by physics alone. Information has a lot more to it than entropy. It has meaning. In information processing systems physicality is harnessed, utilized to achieve prescribed utility. Prescription therefore causally precedes physicality. The problem of sign to be adequately scientifically addressed requires recourse to choice contingent causation. There is a lot of reason to assert by induction from known intelligently created information processing systems (both human and animal) that this is also true for the biological systems themselves because they have an identifiable semiotic core similar to information processing systems created by humans or animals. So the hypothesis is to claim that biological decision support systems are also a result of choice contingent causation. Anyone who wants to disprove the validity of this hypothetical inference, which is the essence of ID, from known information processing systems to the plausible intelligent origin of biological systems, must demonstrate that intelligence can be reduced to chance and necessity; in other words, they must demonstrate that intelligence is indeed an emergent property of inanimate matter. Until such time as it is clearly and unambiguously demonstrated, ID stands as a valid scientific hypothesis in the strictest sense.EugeneS
August 13, 2015
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JimFit: you are right that its not the same but i can’t find a reason to believe that the constants are related since even theories fail to establish a proof for that claim If history is a guide, many coincidences in nature have underlying explanations, such as the equivalence of the gravitational and inertial masses. JimFit: Carpathian is an atheist, he tries to explain the Universe with physical necessity, my reply to him was to show him that the universe is not logically necessary. Not sure either position can be supported definitively, at least from a scientific perspective.Zachriel
August 13, 2015
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Zachriel Yes you are right that its not the same but i can't find a reason to believe that the constants are related since even theories fail to establish a proof for that claim, Carpathian is an atheist, he tries to explain the Universe with physical necessity, my reply to him was to show him that the universe is not logically necessary.JimFit
August 13, 2015
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JimFit: the constants are NOT RELATED and cannot be explained by physical necessity There's no known relationship. That does not mean that the constants can't be related somehow. The essay you quote does not contend the 'constants are NOT RELATED', only that it still leaves unanswered questions. "There is not a shred of evidence that the universe is logically necessary," is not the same claim as that the constants may not be related.Zachriel
August 13, 2015
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Although on further reflection, I would also find life meaningless without a God. So that is how an Atheist feels...ppolish
August 12, 2015
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Mung, I can understand an Atheist's rejection of God. But to consider life meaningless stumps me. Doesn't Susan Blackmore understand just a tiny tiny bit how much fine tuning and how many physical laws are required just for her big toe?ppolish
August 12, 2015
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ppolish, well, first you begin by rejecting the possibility of existence of God as foolishness. And then you say, "there is no god."Mung
August 12, 2015
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All these exquisitely fine tuned parameters and beautiful physical laws. Exquisite. Beautiful. To bring about meaninglessness:) Seriously, how does one believe that!ppolish
August 12, 2015
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Paul Davies wrote an entire book thinking it was fine-tuning. And a bunch of atheists are explicitly embracing the multiverse to get around the issue. Why would they do this if the evidence was ambiguous?geoffrobinson
August 12, 2015
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No Carpathian, the constants are NOT RELATED and cannot be explained by physical necessity, Fine-tuning is about changing the laws of nature i.e. changing what is physically possible and/or necessary. i suggest you to read the answers on these questions, A and B. A. An unknown physical process sets the constants/initial conditions to be in the life-permitting range. B. A deeper understanding of physical laws reveals that many/most/all the constants are related. https://letterstonature.wordpress.com/2010/04/03/is-that-really-necessary-a-fine-tuned-critique-of-william-lane-craig-part-2/JimFit
August 12, 2015
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Carpathian
On each board you could make the case that even a small difference in currents or voltages would be disastrous, but we find that not to be the case since we have empirical evidence from the other boards that show that within limits, the relationship between all the values are stable but different. We can’t say that about the universe because we only have one example, but there is no evidence to suggest that if the universe had slightly different values, it could not also find a stable state that supports life.
Theoretical Physicists can *formulate* models describing other ways our universe could have been, and when they do, they find that life-permitting universes are very rare in the set of possible universes. Martin Rees makes this point quite well so I’ll quote him: “Any universe hospitable to life … has to be ‘adjusted’ in a particular way. The prerequisites for any life of the kind we know about — long-lived stable stars, stable atoms such as carbon, oxygen and silicon, able to combine into complex molecules, etc — are sensitive to the physical laws and to the size, expansion rate and contents of the universe. Indeed, even for the most open-minded science ?ction writer, ‘life’ or ‘intelligence’ requires the emergence of some generic complex structures: it can’t exist in a homogeneous universe, not in a universe containing only a few dozen particles. Many recipes would lead to stillborn universes with no atoms, no chemistry, and no planets; or to universes too short-lived or too empty to allow anything to evolve beyond sterile uniformity.” “How much tuning is allowable?” Here’s an example: http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/9908247 . A change in the strong force of 0.4% and stars produce oxygen or carbon but not both. That may not make life impossible, but it does make it much more difficult. If the proton were heavier my 0.1%, then there were be no hydrogen in the universe, and thus no long-lived stars. “In short: “If you don’t want God, you’d? better have a multiverse” (Bernard Carr). “If you discovered a really impressive fine-tuning … I think you’d really be left with only two explanations: a benevolent designer or a multiverse” (Steven Weinberg).JimFit
August 12, 2015
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Lets not forget that not even an inflation Multiverse can explain the Fine Tuning of the Cosmological Constant! " but one thing is for sure: it can no longer be argued that the multiverse hypothesis predicts the cosmological constant in any testable or falsifiable way. " http://blankonthemap.blogspot.gr/2014/02/does-multiverse-explain-cosmological.htmlJimFit
August 12, 2015
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Apparently fine tuning and ID are not as incompatible as first claimed. But we can count on Carpathian to keep trying!Mung
August 12, 2015
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Carp proclaims
"A lot less time than the designer of the universe spent “fine-tuning” his design."
And there you have it folks. Carp, if he could possibly create a universe, knows without a doubt that he could create a universe better than God did it. Arrogance, thy name is Carp! But Carp, before you go out and try your hand at creating universes, (since you find this one so sub par to your own tastes in engineering), let me give you a small inkling as to how far man's efforts at fine-tuning fall short of the 1 in 10^120 cosmological constant: For comparing resistors, we have this level of accuracy:
Team improves the world's most accurate instrument for resistance measurement - April 10, 2013 Excerpt: The CCC's is accurate to better than 1 part in 10^9. Using the optically isolated current sources, the resistance bridge can make comparisons between resistors with an accuracy and repeatability of better than 10^-8. http://phys.org/news/2013-04-team-world-accurate-instrument-resistance.html
Thus, the best accuracy of 1 in a billion achieved by man in this instance, (1 in a billion is considered excellent in the electronics and engineering world by the way), falls short of the 1 in 10^120 cosmological constant by 1 in 10^111 orders of magnitude. To call that a shortfall is to insult the word shortfall. 1 in 10^9 is not even on the same planet as 1 in 10^120 is! Moreover, the most accurate instrument ever built by man is, the last time I checked, 1 part in 10^22 for a gravity wave detector, which falls short of the cosmological constant by 1 in 10^98 orders of magnitude. It seems they may have bumped the accuracy up an order of magnitude to 1 in 10^23
"Our sensitivity is designed to improve by a factor of 10 to 20," http://phys.org/news/2015-05-gravitational-years.html
which still falls short of the cosmological constant by 1 in 10^97 orders of magnitude Let's just say that you may have a bit more work cut out for yourself in figuring out how to create a universe suitable for life than you have imagined. i.e.
"A lot less time than the designer of the universe spent “fine-tuning” his design."
i.e. perhaps if you work late into the evenings, and put in a little overtime, you can overcome these difficulties in attaining a 1 in 10^120 level of accuracy. :) Moreover, as if the 1 in 10^120 cosmological constant was not bad enough for you to try to imitate, according to esteemed British mathematical physicist Roger Penrose (1931-present), the odds of one particular individual constant, the 'original phase-space volume' of the universe, required such precision that the "Creator’s aim must have been to an accuracy of 1 part in 10^10^123”.
: “This now tells us how precise the Creator's aim must have been: namely to an accuracy of one part in 10^10^123.” (from the Emperor’s New Mind, Penrose, pp 339-345 - 1989) "The 'accuracy of the Creator's aim' would have had to be in 10^10^123" Hawking, S. and Penrose, R., The Nature of Space and Time, Princeton, Princeton University Press (1996), 34, 35.
This number is gargantuan. If this number were written out in its entirety, 1 with 10^123 zeros to the right, it could not be written on a piece of paper the size of the entire visible universe, even if a number were written down on each sub-atomic particle in the entire universe, since the universe only has 10^80 sub-atomic particles in it. Not only is that level of accuracy far beyond our abilities to imitate, I simply cannot even fathom how to properly illustrate just how short man falls in ever trying to imitate the accuracy of it. The accuracy simply is astonishing.
"Some people ... still maintain that since science has provided us with so many answers the day will soon arrive when we will be able to understand even the creation of the fundamental laws of nature without a Divine intent. They challenge science to prove the existence of God. But must we really light a candle to see the sun?" — Wernher von Braun, rocket pioneer, 1972 - genius behind Apollo program
bornagain77
August 12, 2015
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Mung:
How much time did you spend fine tuning your MagicWeasel program to give you the results you wanted?
A lot less time than the designer of the universe spent "fine-tuning" his design. Unless the designer is someone who can just snap their fingers and say, "Let there be light".Carpathian
August 12, 2015
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Carpathian: The fine-tuning argument is a terrible argument for ID. How much time did you spend fine tuning your MagicWeasel program to give you the results you wanted?Mung
August 12, 2015
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bornagain77:
Carpathian, actually, although you are right that most of the constants can vary by a few, or several, percentage points without disasterous consequences, there are a few constants that are so extremely fine tuned that they almost defy comprehension.
The point of using an electronic circuit as an example is to show the codependency of the values. Using ohm's law you can see that on any board, no values could be anything other that what they are. The reason they assume the values they do is because of their relationship to the other values. The universal values are also due to relationships. They cannot have any other value. People are comparing these values as if they were discreet, but they are not. They are a system of constants and thus cannot be anything but the value they are. One would not look at an electronic circuit and treat voltage, current and resistance separately. They must be treated as a system.Carpathian
August 12, 2015
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Actually, the 1 in 10 to the 60th for the fine-tuning of the mass density for the universe is more closely approximated to equal just 1 grain of sand instead of a tenth of a dime!
Bang for the Buck: What the BICEP2 Consortium's Discovery Means - Rob Sheldon - March 19, 2014 Excerpt: “But the inflationary claim is more spectacular because it was even more unexpected. Inflation was Alan Guth’s attempt to explain why the early universe after the Big Bang was so very “flat,”which is to say, why the force of the explosion matched the force of gravity to one part in 10 to the 60. To put this in perspective, there are about 10 to the 80 protons in the visible universe, so 10 to the 20 protons, about one grain of sand, would have unbalanced the Big Bang, causing it either to recollapse into a black hole, or to expand so fast as to never form stars and galaxies. One grain of sand more, one grain less and we would not be here.” Rob Sheldon - Physicist http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/03/bang_for_the_bu083451.html Sand is made up of Silica this has the formula SiO2 silicon weighs 28 atomic units Oxygen weighs 16 atomic units so each SiO2 weighs 60 atomic units there are 6.023 x 10^23 atomic units in a gram. that is 6 with 23 zeros after it. so there would be 6.023 x 10^23 / 60 = 1x 10^22 SiO2s in a gram so 3 x 10^22 atoms in a gram Say a grain of sand is 1mm across it has a volume of 0.001cm3 1cm3 of sand weighs about 2.6g so a grain of sand will weigh 0.0026g so to find the number of atoms in a grain of sand we multiply the number of atoms per gram by the number of grams: 3 x 10^22 x 0.0026g = 7.8 x 10^19 atoms = 1 grain of sand http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6447 thus 10^79 – atoms in the universe minus 10^60 – fine tuning of mass density equals 10^19 – or equals one grain of sand https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/this-might-make-you-feel-rather-small/#comment-394591
As well, there is also the 1 in 10^40 gravitational constant that is also balanced on a razor's edge:
Finely Tuned Gravity (1 in 10^40 tolerance; which is just one inch of tolerance allowed on a imaginary ruler stretching across the diameter of the entire universe) – (27:32 minute mark) video https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ajqH4y8G0MI#t=1652
At the 4:45 minute mark of the following video, Dr. Bruce comments that varying the gravitational constant by just one inch, on that imaginary ruler that stretched across the entire universe in the preceding video, would either increase or decrease our weight by a trillion fold:
Contemporary Physics and God Part 2 Dr Bruce Gordon - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff_sNyGNSko
Moreover, the constants appear to be interrelated in an 'irreducibly complex' manner:
“If we modify the value of one of the fundamental constants, something invariably goes wrong, leading to a universe that is inhospitable to life as we know it. When we adjust a second constant in an attempt to fix the problem(s), the result, generally, is to create three new problems for every one that we “solve.” The conditions in our universe really do seem to be uniquely suitable for life forms like ourselves, and perhaps even for any form of organic complexity." Gribbin and Rees, “Cosmic Coincidences”, p. 269 Astrobiology research is revealing the high specificity and interdependence of the local parameters required for a habitable environment. These two features of the universe make it unlikely that environments significantly different from ours will be as habitable. At the same time, physicists and cosmologists have discovered that a change in a global parameter can have multiple local effects. Therefore, the high specificity and interdependence of local tuning and the multiple effects of global tuning together make it unlikely that our tiny island of habitability is part of an archipelago. Our universe is a small target indeed. Astronomer Guillermo Gonzalez - P. 625, The Nature of Nature
bornagain77
August 12, 2015
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Nima Arkani Hamed discusses Dark Energy / Cosmological Constant. And like Susskind, proposes a Multiverse as an explanation: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O65G0-3qGcMppolish
August 12, 2015
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Carpathian, actually, although you are right that most of the constants can vary by a few, or several, percentage points without disasterous consequences, there are a few constants that are so extremely fine tuned that they almost defy comprehension. For example, there is the 1 in 10^120 cosmological constant that is balanced on a razor's edge of a razor's edge, etc... At the 8:15 minute mark of the following video, Dawkins is set straight by Weinberg himself on the 'problem' of the 1 in 10^120 Cosmological Constant:
Quote: “I don’t think one should underestimate the fix we are in. That in the end we will not be able to explain the world. That we will have some set of laws of nature (that) we will not be able to derive them on the grounds simply of mathematical consistency. Because we can already think of mathematically consistent laws that don’t describe the world as we know it. And we will always be left with a question ‘why are the laws nature what they are rather than some other laws?’. And I don’t see any way out of that. The fact that the constants of nature are suitable for life, which is clearly true, we observe,,,” (Weinberg then comments on the multiverse conjecture of atheists) “No one has constructed a theory in which that is true. I mean,, the (multiverse) theory would be speculative, but we don’t even have a theory in which that speculation is mathematically realized. But it is a possibility.” Steven Weinberg – as stated to Richard Dawkins at the 8:15 minute mark of the following video Leonard Susskind - Richard Dawkins and Steven Weinberg - 1 in 10^120 - Cosmological Constant points to intelligent design - video https://youtu.be/z4E_bT4ecgk?t=495 What is the cosmological constant paradox, and what is its significance? David H. Bailey – 1 Jan 2015 Excerpt: Curiously, this observation is in accord with a prediction made by physicist Steven Weinberg in 1987, who argued from basic principles that the cosmological constant must be zero to within one part in roughly 10^120, or else the universe either would have dispersed too fast for stars and galaxies to have formed, or else would have recollapsed upon itself long ago [Susskind2005, pg. 80-82].,,, In short, the recent discovery of the accelerating expansion of the universe and the implied slightly positive value of the cosmological constant constitutes, in the words of physicist Leonard Susskind (who is an atheist), a “cataclysm,” a “stunning reversal of fortunes” [Susskind2005, pg., 22, 154]. It is literally shaking the entire field of theoretical physics, astronomy and cosmology to its foundations.,,, http://www.sciencemeetsreligion.org/physics/cosmo-constant.php Hugh Ross PhD. - Scientific Evidence For Cosmological Constant (1 in 10^120 Expansion Of The Universe) http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4347218/
(Commenting on the 1 in 10^120 fine tuning of the expansion of the universe),
"Hugh Ross states an analogy that does not even come close to describing the precarious nature of this cosmic balance [between too fast and too slow] would be a billion pencils all simultaneously positioned upright on their sharpened points on a smooth glass surface with no vertical supports." Eric Metaxas - Miracles - page 49
Here are the verses from the Bible which Dr. Ross listed, which were written well over 2000 years before the discovery of the finely tuned expansion of the universe, that speak of God 'Stretching out the Heavens'; Job 9:8; Isaiah 40:22; Isaiah 44:24; Isaiah 48:13; Zechariah 12:1; Psalm 104:2; Isaiah 42:5; Isaiah 45:12; Isaiah 51:13; Jeremiah 51:15; Jeremiah 10:12. The following verse is my favorite out of the group of verses:
Job 9:8 He alone stretches out the heavens and treads on the waves of the sea. The Truman Show – Truman walking on water – screenshot picture http://gaowsh.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/screen-shot-2011-03-29-at-5-09-50-pm-2.jpg
Here is the paper by the atheist scientists that Dr. Ross mentioned:
Disturbing Implications of a Cosmological Constant - Dyson, Kleban, Susskind (each are self proclaimed atheists) - 2002 Excerpt: "Arranging the universe as we think it is arranged would have required a miracle.,,," “The question then is whether the origin of the universe can be a naturally occurring fluctuation, or must it be due to an external agent which starts the system out in a specific low entropy state?” page 19: “A unknown agent [external to time and space] intervened [in cosmic history] for reasons of its own.,,,” Page 21 "The only reasonable conclusion is that we don't live in a universe with a true cosmological constant". http://arxiv.org/pdf/hep-th/0208013.pdf
Here are the 9 lines of evidence that Dr. Ross mentioned which came out shortly after the preceding paper was listed as a preprint on the Los Alamos’s website. Evidences which made Dyson, Kleban and Susskind pull their paper from consideration,,,
Accumulating Evidence for Dark Energy and Supernatural Design - 2011 Excerpt: I (Hugh Ross) often refer to nine different lines of observational evidence that establish dark energy’s reality and dominance in my talks. These nine are: 1.radial velocities of type Ia supernovae; 2.WMAP of the cosmic microwave background radiation (CMBR); 3.ground-based measures of the CMBR; 4.Sloan Digital Sky Survey of galaxies and galaxy clusters; 5.Two-Degree Field Survey of galaxies; 6.gravitational lens measurements of distant galaxies and quasars; 7.distributions of radio galaxies; 8.galaxy velocity distributions; and 9.x-ray emissions from galaxy clusters.
In the last several years, astronomers have added seven additional lines of observational evidence confirming the reality of the finely tuned cosmological constant, bringing the total to sixteen. These seven are:
10.Lyman-alpha forest measurements; 11.polarization measures of the cosmic microwave background radiation; 12.stellar ages; 13.cosmic inhomogeneities; 14.gamma-ray bursts; 15.evolution of galaxy clustering; and 16.galaxy cluster angular size measurements. http://www.reasons.org/articles/rtb-s-dark-energy-articles
Besides the evidence that Dr. Ross listed for the 1 in 10^120 finely tuned expansion of the universe, this following paper clearly indicates, contrary to what Dyson, Kleban, Susskind wanted to believe, that we do live in universe with a ‘true cosmological constant’. A cosmological constant that is not reducible to a materialistic basis. Thus, the atheistic astrophysicists are at a complete loss to explain why the universe expands in such a finely tuned way, whereas Theists are vindicated once again in their beliefs that the universal constants are truly transcendent of any possible materialistic explanation!
Dark energy alternatives to Einstein are running out of room – January 9, 2013 Excerpt: Last month, a group of European astronomers, using a massive radio telescope in Germany, made the most accurate measurement of the proton-to-electron mass ratio ever accomplished and found that there has been no change in the ratio to one part in 10 million at a time when the universe was about half its current age, around 7 billion years ago. When Thompson put this new measurement into his calculations, he found that it excluded almost all of the dark energy models using the commonly expected values or parameters. If the parameter space or range of values is equated to a football field, then almost the whole field is out of bounds except for a single 2-inch by 2-inch patch at one corner of the field. In fact, most of the allowed values are not even on the field. “In effect, the dark energy theories have been playing on the wrong field,” Thompson said. “The 2-inch square does contain the area that corresponds to no change in the fundamental constants, (a 'true cosmological constant'), and that is exactly where Einstein stands.” http://phys.org/news/2013-01-dark-energy-alternatives-einstein-room.html
As well, there is the 1 in 1 in 10^60 constant that Dr. Sheldon alluded to which cannot vary in the slightest. To clearly illustrate the stunning, incomprehensible, degree of fine-tuning we are dealing with in the universe, Dr. Ross has used the illustration of adding or subtracting a single dime's worth of mass in the observable universe, during the Big Bang, would have been enough of a change in the mass density of the universe to make life impossible in this universe. This word picture he uses, with the dime, helps to demonstrate a number used to quantify that fine-tuning of mass for the universe, namely 1 part in 10^60 for mass density. Compared to the total mass of the observable universe, 1 part in 10^60 works out to about a tenth part of a dime, if not smaller.
Where Is the Cosmic Density Fine-Tuning? - Hugh Ross http://www.reasons.org/where-cosmic-density-fine-tuning
bornagain77
August 12, 2015
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"The slightest change in the mass or charge of the electron would be disastrous, IMO." Susskind agrees, Mapou. He pegs the number of fine tuned parameters at a couple dozen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cT4zZIHR3s&feature=youtube_gdata_playerppolish
August 12, 2015
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bornagain77:
So Carp, using a intelligently designed electrical circuit to argue against intelligent design does not strike you as odd in the least?
It was necessary to use an intelligently designed circuit to make my point. My point here was not to say that the universe was not designed, it was to show that the fine-tuning argument itself was bad. On each board you could make the case that even a small difference in currents or voltages would be disastrous, but we find that not to be the case since we have empirical evidence from the other boards that show that within limits, the relationship between all the values are stable but different. We can't say that about the universe because we only have one example, but there is no evidence to suggest that if the universe had slightly different values, it could not also find a stable state that supports life.Carpathian
August 12, 2015
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So Carp, using a intelligently designed electrical circuit that man has made to argue against intelligent design does not strike you as being odd in the least bit? Perhaps your case for atheism would be far more convincing if you could perhaps use an example of an 'unintelligently designed' power circuit from life? Then again perhaps that tactic would backfire on you, and would not convey your intended atheistic message, since the power systems in life are found to be far more efficient than man made circuits? i.e. Compared to what is in life, man's intelligently designed power circuits are the ones that appear to be 'unintelligently designed'. :)
Your Motor/Generators Are 100% Efficient – October 2011 Excerpt: ATP synthase astounds again. The molecular machine that generates almost all the ATP (molecular “energy pellets”) for all life was examined by Japanese scientists for its thermodynamic efficiency. By applying and measuring load on the top part that synthesizes ATP, they were able to determine that one cannot do better at getting work out of a motor,,, The article was edited by noted Harvard expert on the bacterial flagellum, Howard Berg. http://crev.info/content/111014-your_motor_generators What's quantum physics got to do with biology? - June 2012 Excerpt: certain bacteria can capture 95% of the light that hits them and turn it into useful energy. Solar panels also convert light from the Sun into energy—but they aren't nearly as good at it. The very best solar panels ever tested in a lab (i.e., not the ones actually available for sale and installation on your house) were able to convert about 34% of the light that hit them into electricity.,, Why can't we use the Sun's energy as effectively as bacteria can? The secret may be that the bacteria are using quantum physics to transmit energy. http://boingboing.net/2012/06/01/quantum-biology.html Uncovering Quantum Secret in Photosynthesis - June 20, 2013 Excerpt: Photosynthetic organisms, such as plants and some bacteria, have mastered this process: In less than a couple of trillionths of a second, 95 percent of the sunlight they absorb is whisked away to drive the metabolic reactions that provide them with energy. The efficiency of photovoltaic cells currently on the market is around 20 percent.,,, Van Hulst and his group have evaluated the energy transport pathways of separate individual but chemically identical, antenna proteins, and have shown that each protein uses a distinct pathway. The most surprising discovery was that the transport paths within single proteins can vary over time due to changes in the environmental conditions, apparently adapting for optimal efficiency. "These results show that coherence, a genuine quantum effect of superposition of states, is responsible for maintaining high levels of transport efficiency in biological systems, even while they adapt their energy transport pathways due to environmental influences" says van Hulst. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/06/130620142932.htm The Puzzle of Perfection, Thirty Years On - July 31, 2015 Excerpt: The authors of the first paper, published in PNAS, seem hesitant to use the word "perfect" in their description of ATP synthase, the machine that generates energy currency for most cellular processes in all living things (see our animation of this amazing machine here). They use "near-perfect" in the title and throughout the paper: "ATP synthase produces most of the ATP in respiratory and photosynthetic cells. It is a rotary motor enzyme and its catalytic portion F1-ATPase hydrolyzes ATP to drive rotation of the central ? subunit. Efficiency of chemomechanical energy conversion by this motor is always near-perfect under different ATP hydrolysis energy (?GATP) conditions." Any deviation from perfection, however, could be due to experimental error. In their graph, the error bars transverse the slope for 100 percent efficiency (that is, for conversion of chemical energy to mechanical work). It may well be as close to perfect as is physically possible. What's even more striking is that this "near-perfect" level of efficiency is maintained throughout a "broad range" of operation conditions. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/07/the_puzzle_of_p098171.html Spectacular Discovery Reveals Power Grid in Muscle Cells; Design Implications Are Profound - August 4, 2015 Excerpt: We knew about ATP synthase -- that rotary engine that uses proton flow to create "batteries" of energy-packed ATP molecules. Those motors in the mitochondria are arranged along folds (cristae) in the mitochondrial membranes to maximize their output. Now researchers have learned that the mitochondria themselves are connected by electrical wires in a vast intracellular network. This allows us to see, for the first time, another level in the hierarchy of design in the cell.,,, "Robert Balaban and colleagues explore whether the mitochondria themselves -- as well as actually generating the energy -- also have a role in its distribution. They find that they do, by forming a conductive pathway throughout the cell in the form of a proton-motive force. Throughout this network, the mitochondrial protein localization seems to be varied, allowing optimized generation and utilization of the mitochondrial membrane potential. This energy distribution network, which depends on conduction rather than diffusion, is potentially extremely rapid, thereby enabling muscle to respond almost instantaneously to new energy demands.",,, "The researchers used 3D electron microscopy as well as super-resolution optical imaging techniques to show that most of the mitochondria form highly connected networks in a way that resembles electrical transmission lines in a municipal power grid.",,, "Structurally, the mitochondria are arranged in such a way that permits the flow of potential energy in the form of the mitochondrial membrane voltage throughout the cell to power ATP production and subsequent muscle contraction, or movement," Dr. Balaban explained. Mitochondria located on the edges of the muscle cell near blood vessels and oxygen supply are optimized for generating the mitochondrial membrane voltage, while the interconnected mitochondria deep in the muscle are optimized for using the voltage to produce ATP, Balaban added." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/08/spectacular_dis098271.html
bornagain77
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