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Good and bad arguments for fine-tuning?

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Dr Sheldon
Rob Sheldon

Canadian cosmologist Don Page has written, “In summary, I think the evidence from fine tuning is ambiguous, since the probabilities depend on the models.”

Some have questioned this, and I asked physicist Rob Sheldon who writes to say,

Don Page is exactly correct. Many, though not all, of these fine-tuning arguments have no way to measure the domain, and without that, specifying the range doesn’t turn it into fine tuning.

Let us suppose that your name is Robert Green, and you Google your name and find out that there are exactly 256 Robert Greens in the phone book. Is this evidence of fine tuning or not?

You know the range–256–but you don’t know the domain–the number of potential Robert Greens in the universe. Now suppose your name were Englebert Humperdinck, and you discovered there’s another one in the phone book. Would that be fine tuning? Let us further suppose that this EH was listed as living in a house that you moved out of 15 years ago, would that remove the fine tuning? So you see, it really does matter how big the domain is, how big is the pool of potential-EH minus defined-EH.

In the same way, when someone tells you that the proton mass to electron mass ratio must be accurate to 3 parts per thousand or else life is impossible, is that fine tuning or not? IF it is 3 parts per million for every other physical constant, then this one might not be so finely tuned after all. But wait, parts-per-million of what? It has to be compared to something, and by their nature, physical constants are in different units which makes it hard to intercompare them.

Now when the expansion energy of the universe (kinetic energy) equals the gravitational potential energy of the universe to one part in 10^60, that is measured in the same energy units. That’s clearly fine tuning or a law, but not an accident. So there are valid examples of fine tuning, which may turn
into some deep physical insight in the future, but for the moment can only be described as not-coincidence. But there are more invalid fine tuning examples being advertised than there are valid ones, which was Don Page’s point.

Thoughts?

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Comments
Carpathian: Here is a link to understand what Peirce meant by semiosis. And? Not all biosemioticians are Peircean. See also: Peircean Semiotic Indeterminacy and Its Relevance for Biosemiotics
... I explain how Peirce would go about identifying the immediate object of a sign lacking both a minded utterer and a minded interpreter—an identification that must be possible if any biosign is indeterminate.
Mung
August 15, 2015
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Carpathian @ 63:
I could take a 1K resistor and paint new stripes on it so that it appears to be a 22K resistor. If measured, a meter would still show 1K. Symbols come from us, not from the physical world.
It's as if you think no measurement was ever made in the world until humans came along. Is that really what you believe?Mung
August 15, 2015
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Carpathian, you are hopeless. mRNA codons REPRESENT the amino acids, they do not become amino acids via some physio-chemical process. That means mRNAs are SYMBOLs for amino acids. There isn't any physio-chemical connection between the two. There aren't any physio-chemical laws that determine which codon represents which amino acid. Once you get beyond third grade you may start to grasp some of what I just posted.Virgil Cain
August 15, 2015
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EugeneS, Taking man-made symbols and claiming that therefore, something intelligent like man must have put the chemistry there that relates to our symbolism, is a terrible argument, and also circular. I could take a 1K resistor and paint new stripes on it so that it appears to be a 22K resistor. If measured, a meter would still show 1K. Symbols come from us, not from the physical world. If ID is trying to make a claim that the DNA "code" was put into cells, find some evidence that shows that to be the case. The following is not evidence.
1. Direct evidence: Communication systems known to have been created by man or animals share semiosis with biological systems themselves. Semiosis is coding/decoding of information by way of utilizing material symbol systems. All biological systems without exception have a semiotic core. For their replication and functioning they heavily rely on programmed and processed instructions. These instructions are the means by which biological systems are capable of decision making and learning (i.e. they are capable of intelligent behaviour). 2. Indirect evidence: absolutely zero known reported cases of semiotic systems arising as a result of exclusively non-intelligent causation (chance and necessity).
Semiosis, according to its founder, leads to this: "In this way, Peirce has outlined a process of development of a sign which encompasses all kinds of learning processes – “the mind is a sign developing according to the laws of inference.” Here is a link to understand what Peirce meant by semiosis: http://home.mira.net/~andy/works/semiosis.htm . Semiosis does not help the concept of ID but also does nothing to negate it. To Peirce, everything , including the mind, was a sign.Carpathian
August 15, 2015
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Zachriel:
That would require somehow eliminating all other possible causes.
We have via observations and experiences. All of our knowledge says that codes only come from intelligent agencies. Also EugeneS' prediction is more specific and entailed than anything evolutionism has to offer. Your demented and twisted analogy of what he posted just exposes your desperation.Virgil Cain
August 14, 2015
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Your original claim was that "a symbolically controlled system to come about is only possible via choice contingent causation." That would require somehow eliminating all other possible causes. But let's continue with your modified claim that "living organisms have an intelligent origin." EugeneS: I gave you specific enough predictions: new regulatory non-protein coding parts of DNA will be identified in future, more reliance on code, more (measurable) functional complexity in organismal organization will be revealed. Not specific. Not entailed. That's like saying, Zachriel's Vaunted Theory of Gravity will lead to new discoveries about stars and galaxies. A scientific prediction is a specific empirical observation.Zachriel
August 14, 2015
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Zachriel:
You have to point to something specific we can measure or observe.
Irreducible complexity is such a property- it can be observed and measured. So is information- see Crick.Virgil Cain
August 14, 2015
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Zachriel, You engage in a 'no true Scotsman' tactic. I gave you specific enough predictions: new regulatory non-protein coding parts of DNA will be identified in future, more reliance on code, more (measurable) functional complexity in organismal organization will be revealed. If that is not specific, you don't know what you are talking about, folks.EugeneS
August 14, 2015
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EugeneS: Hypothesis: living organisms have an intelligent origin... EugeneS: if the hypothesis is true, it is reasonable to expect that more evidence will be provided in support of that claim in future similar to the empirically falsified junk DNA evolutionist hypothesis. That's not a scientific entailment. You have to point to something specific we can measure or observe. For instance, given Newtonian Mechanics, if the Earth rotates, then it should bulge at the center, which means the gravitational force should be somewhat less near the equator compared to the higher latitudes, which means that the pendulum should be retarded (slowed) at St. Helena compared to Greenwich.Zachriel
August 14, 2015
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Zachriel #55, Hypothesis: living organisms have an intelligent origin. Evidence in support of this hypothesis is two-fold: 1. Direct evidence: Communication systems known to have been created by man or animals share semiosis with biological systems themselves. Semiosis is coding/decoding of information by way of utilizing material symbol systems. All biological systems without exception have a semiotic core. For their replication and functioning they heavily rely on programmed and processed instructions. These instructions are the means by which biological systems are capable of decision making and learning (i.e. they are capable of intelligent behaviour). 2. Indirect evidence: absolutely zero known reported cases of semiotic systems arising as a result of exclusively non-intelligent causation (chance and necessity). Predictions: if the hypothesis is true, it is reasonable to expect that more evidence will be provided in support of that claim in future. This was already so in the case of the empirically falsified junk DNA evolutionist hypothesis. What was thought of as junk non-functional DNA by some evolutionary biologists was subsequently experimentally found to be in fact functional. In line with that evidence, it is predicted that more functions will be identified in non-DNA coding regions in future. Overall, more levels of functional complexity and reliance on coded instructions will be discovered in biological systems as a result of future research.EugeneS
August 14, 2015
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Zachriel is oblivious to the fact that evolutionism doesn't have any clear hypotheses nor entailments.
What test do we run to determine “a symbolically controlled system to come about is only possible via choice contingent causation”?
We can use our observations and experiences to determine that.Virgil Cain
August 14, 2015
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EugeneS: However, it is a claim well supported empirically. Propose a clear hypothesis and entailments. What test do we run to determine "a symbolically controlled system to come about is only possible via choice contingent causation"? (We're assuming choice means the actions of an intelligent external agent.)Zachriel
August 14, 2015
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Zachriel #53, Well, yes, that is a claim. However, it is a claim well supported empirically. The contrary claim that intelligence is not necessary to produce information processing systems is vacuous, to borrow the term from yourselves. I don't know whether or not there is scientific evidence for steering as regards the fine-tuning of physical constants (I guess there is but I don't know the subject well enough to make claims), but as regards life the plausibility of steering is well grounded. Obviously, we can't state with certainty about life (and therefore ID is essentially a hypothesis) because the appearance of life is a singular event in natural history. Nonetheless, the ID hypothesis is very insightful and well empirically supported. Again, to prove it wrong your camp needs to unambiguously demonstrate that intelligent causation is unnecessary to explain how life started. So far, there is exactly zilch in your baggage. All purported evidence is ambiguous. What your camp needs is a clear demonstration that control, logic, rules can emerge from physicality without recourse to intelligence.EugeneS
August 14, 2015
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JimFit: That’s the infinity of the gaps argument ... As we're not making a claim about any physical origin of the Big Bang, that doesn't apply. Rather, we are just pointing out that there is a Gap, and you are inserting your preferred metaphysical paste. JimFit: A TOE won’t explain literally everything. Perhaps not, but it may explain the Big Bang, rendering your Gap argument vacuous. EugeneS: ID claims that for a symbolically controlled system to come about is only possible via choice contingent causation Yes, that's the claim. EugeneS: One hypothetical possibility is to create a local environment in order to steer events towards that particular goal. At this point, it's scientifically indistinguishable from the statement, "given the properties of carbon and water, abiogenesis". There's no scientific evidence of steering.Zachriel
August 14, 2015
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It doesn't matter what the medium of transfer is (electrical or chemical based or both), code is still code.computerist
August 14, 2015
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Carpathian, "The operation of the DNA “code” is due to chemistry, not symbols." Chemistry is utilized in living systems in order to gain utility. Chemistry is not all there is to life. Life is chemistry + information processing (i.e. logic). Information is a logical notion, not physical. Chemistry is also utilized at the chemical factory. But there is much more to the chemical factory than chemistry, mate. It is the control, the flow of matter on the factory floor to produce utility. Similarly, the codon table is a table of rules, not chemical laws. The codon table cannot be reduced to the laws of nature because it is indifferent to them. The laws of nature just support the choices that are reflected by the table. The logic has been instantiated into physicality. Another codon could have been chosen to represent the same amino acid. The logic of life is objective. Life exists irrespective of our ideas about it, it is objective reality. Life could have existed without man. The chemical laws can just be reduced to the 4 basic types of physical interaction. Control can't. Rules can't. Logic can't. You are saying that television is just particles moving. Yes, they are moving indeed. BUT... Particles move everywhere else in nature, including outside of television systems. What really makes television television is control circuitry which is in its essence symbolic. This immediately sets it apart conceptually from things that can be observed in non-living matter. Symbols can be identified irrespective of our subjective opinions. DNA is code in the strict objective sense of this term. The good news is that the team behind the nickname 'Zachriel' have left the thread. That does them credit in a sense, I suppose.EugeneS
August 14, 2015
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Carpathian:
We, human intelligent agents, are responsible for the “code”.
We uncovered it and translated it. We did not invent it. The genetic code exists regardless of us. Obviously you are just a clueless dolt. mRNA codons REPRESENT the amino acids. That is a FACT and has NOTHING to do with us. You are either a complete moron or an insipid troll.Virgil Cain
August 14, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
The evidence the genetic code was put there by an intelligent agent is that only intelligent agents can produce codes.
We, human intelligent agents, are responsible for the "code". God may have put the chemistry there, but the "code" is ours. You may be right that an intelligent agent put the chemistry there, but the "code" was applied by us. There is no evidence however, that that chemistry was put there by an intelligent agent. Taking man-made symbols and claiming that therefore, something intelligent like man must have put the chemistry there that relates to our symbolism, is a terrible argument.Carpathian
August 14, 2015
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Upright BiPed, Thanks for the links. I'll go and take a look at them.Carpathian
August 14, 2015
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That's right Carp. Don't learn anything. Stay on point. You carelessly say things like "symbols don't control anything, only matter and energy does". The fact that symbols are instantiated in matter and energy doesn't even cross your mind. Good for you. Stay ignorant.Upright BiPed
August 14, 2015
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Carpathian:
There is no evidence to suggest that the DNA “code” was put there by an intelligent agent.
Why did you put the word code in scare quotes? Are you admitting that you don't know that the genetic code is a real code? The evidence the genetic code was put there by an intelligent agent is that only intelligent agents can produce codes. The genetic code is not reducible to matter and energy. That means it is NOT due to chemistry. Your ignorance is not an argument.Virgil Cain
August 14, 2015
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Upright BiPed, A symbol is what we apply to something in order to reference it. For instance, I might apply a label to a switch entitled, "Living Room". If I change the label to "Kitchen", the function of the switch has not changed. "Symbols" don't control things, matter/energy does. There is no evidence to suggest that the DNA "code" was put there by an intelligent agent. The symbols we use for that "code" in no way affect the operation of the DNA "code". The symbolic "code" came from us, not from an intelligent agent. The operation of the DNA "code" is due to chemistry, not symbols.Carpathian
August 14, 2015
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Here Carp, Get started: http://www.informatics.indiana.edu/rocha/pattee/pattee.html http://www.compilerpress.ca/Competitiveness/Anno/Anno%20Polanyi%20Lifes%20Irreducible%20Structure%20Acience%201968.htm https://www.academia.edu/863864/The_physics_of_symbols_and_the_evolution_of_semiotic_controls http://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/SC/B/C/B/J/_/scbcbj.pdf https://www.academia.edu/4775461/Physical_and_functional_conditions_for_symbols_codes_and_languages http://benthamopen.com/contents/pdf/TOCSJ/TOCSJ-2-252.pdfUpright BiPed
August 14, 2015
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facepalm facepalm facepalm (learn to think, Carp, read a book)Upright BiPed
August 14, 2015
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EugeneS:
ID claims that for a symbolically controlled system to come about is only possible via choice contingent causation by analogy to semiotic systems created by human or animal intelligence (also taking into consideration the sheer absence of observations of such systems ever appearing other than by intelligent causation).
Systems are not controlled by symbols. They are controlled by matter or energy, ( e.g. chemical interaction or electrical charges), while the symbolism comes from the observer. You can test this by changing the symbols in a system and watching to see if its operation changes.Carpathian
August 14, 2015
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Zahriel, To state that a hypothesis about the most plausible origin of symbolically controlled living systems is synonymous to making statements regarding the structural organization of those systems is incorrect. Biosemiosis, i.e. the processing of signs in living nature, is an objective reality, an observation, not a hypothesis. However, people can hypothesize about the origin of living systems. Behind the phrase 'life is symbolically controlled matter' there is a great deal of research, which establishes exactly what it says on the tin. How can it be synonymous to hypothetical statements about the origin of those systems?! Think of it yourselves. ID claims that for a symbolically controlled system to come about is only possible via choice contingent causation by analogy to semiotic systems created by human or animal intelligence (also taking into consideration the sheer absence of observations of such systems ever appearing other than by intelligent causation). How exactly, is a different matter. One hypothetical possibility is to create a local environment in order to steer events towards that particular goal. If you want to brand that abiogenesis, that is fine by me. But this 'abiogenesis' must be a goal-directed process (never mind the tautology) controlled by intelligent decision making. What is generally called 'abiogenesis', however, is a different thing altogether because it assumes at the outset that no such intelligent causation was necessary. That is grossly wrong because it is in conflict with scientific evidence. To accept that one needs intellectual honesty and courage. Sometimes it is too much to ask for...EugeneS
August 14, 2015
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Zachriel
If you mean the Big Bang, philosophy hasn’t stopped cosmologists from exploring its causes and effects. Just because current understanding of physics breaks down at the singularity doesn’t mean physics can never understand it.
That's the infinity of the gaps argument, you wish that there will be always a physical cause when the Universe (everything physical including space and time) did had a sudden beginning, if there was nothing physical how can you draw physical causes? Its illogical.. A TOE won’t explain literally everything. In particular, the initial conditions (or, more generally, boundary conditions) of the universe are a worry. Here’s a quote from John Wheeler that should keep cosmologists awake at night: "Never has physics come up with a way to tell with what initial conditions the universe was started off. On nothing is physics clearer than what is not physics: equation of motion, yes; initial position and velocity of the object which follows that equation of motion, no. (At Home in the Universe)" Even if the equations that describe our universe are unique, containing no free parameters, it doesn’t follow that the solution to the equation, and thus the universe itself, is unique. For example: "The equations of [string theory] have no adjustable constants, but their solutions, describing different vacuum states, are characterised by several hundred parameters-the sizes of compact dimensions, the locations of the branes, and so on. (Alex Vilenkin, “Many Worlds in One”)JimFit
August 14, 2015
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EugeneS: Biosemiosis is evidence against naturalistic models. Well, that's your claim. EugeneS: However, what I was saying is that tuning was necessary even for a computer program to work, let alone such complex things as living systems. Or perhaps the universe is fine-tuned for carbon and water to naturally form life, a.k.a. abiogenesis. EugeneS: Life as symbolically controlled matter requires choice contingent causation. Synonyms are not an argument.Zachriel
August 14, 2015
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Zachriel 37, Nope. It it you guys who gets it wrong. Biosemiosis is evidence against naturalistic models. Naturalistic models are complete bluff. However, what I was saying is that tuning was necessary even for a computer program to work, let alone such complex things as living systems. You cannot get away with your naturalistic claims anymore in the face of evidence against them. Life as symbolically controlled matter requires choice contingent causation. Your reductionist case has been debunked by the progress of science.EugeneS
August 14, 2015
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EugeneS: but you cannot claim that the laws of nature are enough to explain their own existence. Did we? Oh my. Actually, we stated "Not sure either position can be supported definitively, at least from a scientific perspective." EugeneS: Taken more broadly, this also relates to fine-tuning (the anthropic principle). Because it concerns the properties of proteins, hence the properties of carbon. You have the inference wrong, though. Given the existence of masses, hypothesis inverse square law. Given the properties of carbon and water, hypothesis abiogenesis.Zachriel
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