Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Cost of maintenance and construction of design, neutral theory supports ID and/or creation

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Most of biological ID literature is focused on Irreducible Complexity and Specified Complexity (Specified Improbability) and information theory, no free lunch, critique of OOL, the Cambrian explosion, etc,

But there is another line of argument that is devastating to the claims of mindless evolution that has been underappreciated partly because it is highly technical, and in many cases most biologists will not even learn it in detail, namely that most molecular evolution is non-Darwinian.

Here is the simplest way to understand why evolution is mostly non-Darwinian. The ability to select for or against a trait involves the cost of sacrificing individual lives. When we spend money we have a limited budget to buy things. From our budget we can select to have maintenance done on our houses, cars, computers, our bodies (healthcare) or we can buy other thing to accumulate possessions.

What Darwin and most Darwinists do not realize is that selection for individual traits likewise comes at cost. To select to maintain one part of the genome means that there is no budget to maintain another part of the genome. To select to construct new features of the genome means one must abandon the maintenance budget of another part. This will be true even if the selection process is done by an intelligent agency like a human. The reason most computerized “proofs” of evolutionism like Dawkins Weasel and Avida are invalid is they do not model the problem of cost of maintaining and constructing mutli gigabit complex designs.

To understand things more clearly, here is a hypothetical illustration. If an asexually reproducing species could only have one offspring, selection must necessarily be neutral because there is no reproductive excess, there is zero “money” to carry out selection. If there are harmful mutations along the way, oh well, no “money” of excess reproduction to fix it. This would be an extreme case of Muller’s ratchet where the bad irreversibly just keeps accumulating.

Now if an asexually reproducing species could have two offspring, it now has a little more “money” in the form of reproductive excess to select to maintain one trait that goes bad. Let’s say one of the two offspring develops a bad mutation and the other doesn’t. We can expend him, or dare I say “spend” him to fix the genome. But our selection budget would be blown if each of the kids develop 1 bad mutation each, and it would really be blown if they develop 100 bad mutations each! And at this point we are not even considering the budget needed to build new functional traits.

When we actually do careful accounting of the costs of natural selection envisioned by Darwin and Dawkins versus the available money of reproductive excess, we realize that if evolution happens, it must be mostly free of selection as a matter of principle, and thus mostly neutral. There is simply not enough “money” in the form of reproductive excess to maintain and construct complex designs composed of billions of nucleotide and epigenetic “traits”. There is some selection obviously, because there is some “money” to do a little bit, but not enough.

The accounting of the cost of selection can be done in a number of ways. One way to demonstrate this is through the equations of population genetics, and the other way is a computer simulation that does the accounting. One of the best, if not the best computer accounting simulations is Mendel’s Accountant written by the dream team of creationist population genetics. The irony then is population geneticists, PZ Myers, Larry Moran, the YECs have had a rare moment of agreement where they have all signed the claim, “most molecular evolution is non-Darwinian.”

But if most evolution is non-Darwinian, maintenance much less construction of design cannot be explained by Darwinism, then the case for ID is strengthened.

Now if most evolution had been non-Darwinian, one would rightly argue it would have been a random walk, and thus not much better than a tornado going trough a junkyard. Creationist have seized on this and said, “well we’re not a junkyard, therefore some non-random process must have created designs in nature, hence we are designed”. In contrast, Larry Moran and friends have said “evolution is a random walk and we are obviously junkyards and you’re an IDiot if you think biological organisms are mostly functional.”

[cross posted at CEU IDCS Cost of maintenance and construction of design, neutral theory supports ID and/or creation]

Comments
Acartia_bogart @2, perhaps you would like to tell us how Natural Selection, a process selecting 3-Dimensional phenotypes, produces 4-Dimensional systems?: “Although living things occupy a three-dimensional space, their internal physiology and anatomy operate as if they were four-dimensional. Quarter-power scaling laws are perhaps as universal and as uniquely biological as the biochemical pathways of metabolism, the structure and function of the genetic code and the process of natural selection.,,, The conclusion here is inescapable, that the driving force for these invariant scaling laws cannot have been natural selection." Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piatelli-Palmarini, What Darwin Got Wrong (London: Profile Books, 2010), p. 78-79 The predominance of quarter-power (4-D) scaling in biology Excerpt: Many fundamental characteristics of organisms scale with body size as power laws of the form: Y = Yo M^b, where Y is some characteristic such as metabolic rate, stride length or life span, Yo is a normalization constant, M is body mass and b is the allometric scaling exponent. A longstanding puzzle in biology is why the exponent b is usually some simple multiple of 1/4 (4-Dimensional scaling) rather than a multiple of 1/3, as would be expected from Euclidean (3-Dimensional) scaling. http://www.nceas.ucsb.edu/~drewa/pubs/savage_v_2004_f18_257.pdf The reason why 4-Dimensional things are completely invisible to 3-Dimensional things is best illustrated by ‘flatland’: Flatland – 3D to 4D shift – Carl Sagan – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnURElCzGc0bornagain77
April 23, 2014
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Please present a testable model.
There are very testable hypothesis on this. And I am sure there will be lots of research on this in the next few years as various genomes get listed in the genome data bases. When it does, Axe will either be supported or he will be falsified. I expect he will be supported but the information is coming for this.jerry
April 23, 2014
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Natural selection does NOT select. It is eliminative, meaning whatever can't cut it in the environment it is in will be eliminated from the population (unless it can move to an environment in which it can survive). Natural selection has proven to be impotent as a designer mimic. And that means that evolutionism is a failure as it has nothing left as an alleged designer mimic.Joe
April 23, 2014
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“Nick Matzke claims he is not an atheist.”
That is not the issue here. What is the issue is how much of the human genome is non-functional. Let's have a discussion on that. We have research which says a significant part of the non-coding regions is functional and are subject to positive selection. The question is how much more.jerry
April 23, 2014
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Nick Matzke, Just how does blind and undirected processes account for any genome? Please present a testable model. Also Larry Moran is a proven imbecile so he isn't in any position to insult anyone.Joe
April 23, 2014
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"Nick Matzke claims he is not an atheist." Nick Matzke also falsely claims, via the fraudulent practice of literature bluffing, that Darwinian processes created the Bacterial Flagellum: Calling Nick Matzke's literature bluff on molecular machines - DonaldM UD blogger - April 2013 Excerpt: So now, 10 years later in 2006 Matzke and Pallen come along with this review article. The interesting thing about this article is that, despite all the hand waving claims about all these dozens if not hundreds of peer reviewed research studies showing how evolution built a flagellum, Matzke and Pallen didn’t have a single such reference in their bibliography. Nor did they reference any such study in the article. Rather, the article went into great lengths to explain how a researcher might go about conducting a study to show how evolution could have produced the system. Well, if all those articles and studies were already there, why not just point them all out? In shorty, the entire article was a tacit admission that Behe had been right all along. Fast forward to now and Andre’s question directed to Matzke. We’re now some 17 years after Behe’s book came out where he made that famous claim. And, no surprise, there still is not a single peer reviewed research study that provides the Darwinian explanation for a bacterial flagellum (or any of the other irreducibly complex biological systems Behe mentioned in the book). We’re almost 7 years after the Matzke & Pallen article. So where are all these research studies? There’s been ample time for someone to do something in this regard. Matzke will not answer the question because there is no answer he can give…no peer reviewed research study he can reference, other than the usual literature bluffing he’s done in the past. https://uncommondescent.com/irreducible-complexity/andre-asks-an-excellent-question-regarding-dna-as-a-part-of-an-in-cell-irreducibly-complex-communication-system/#comment-453291 Thus since Nick has shown he could care less for the actual truth of a matter, why should his claim for anything be taken seriously?bornagain77
April 23, 2014
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Actually, what’s actually happening is that the evolutionary biologists are winning over the ENCODE people, who are in full retreat on their “most of the genome is functional” position.
Here is another question for you. What percentage of novel coding regions arose from the process that produces these non-coding no function sequences. Is this the main source for coding regions or is there another source?jerry
April 23, 2014
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the baseless fantasies of atheists
I agree that a lot of the rhetoric used by those who believe in a naturalist approach to evolution is based on this. But, Nick Matzke claims he is not an atheist. So it is hard to use that particular argument here. Some of the non-coding regions are not functional and some are. The question is how much of each. That is what we should be focusing on.jerry
April 23, 2014
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Information Storage in DNA by Wyss Institute - video https://vimeo.com/47615970 Quote from preceding video: "The theoretical (information) density of DNA is you could store the total world information, which is 1.8 zetabytes, at least in 2011, in about 4 grams of DNA." Sriram Kosuri PhD. - Wyss Institute Scientists' 3-D View of Genes-at-Work Is Paradigm Shift in Genetics - Dec. 2009 Excerpt: Highly coordinated chromosomal choreography leads genes and the sequences controlling them, which are often positioned huge distances apart on chromosomes, to these 'hot spots'. Once close together within the same transcription factory, genes get switched on (a process called transcription) at an appropriate level at the right time in a specific cell type. This is the first demonstration that genes encoding proteins with related physiological role visit the same factory. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091215160649.htm 600 Genes Involved in Fundamental Cell Division - Cornelius Hunter - July 2011 Excerpt: The hundreds of genes are involved in an absolutely fundamental biological process is yet another example of evolution’s failure to explain biology. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2011/07/600-genes-involved-in-fundamental-cell.html Centriole - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNvXTassmHM Multidimensional Genome – Dr. Robert Carter – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/8905048/ The Extreme Complexity Of Genes – Dr. Raymond G. Bohlin - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/8593991/ At the 10:30 minute mark of the following video, Dr. Trifonov states that the idea of the selfish gene 'inflicted an immense damage to biological sciences', for over 30 years: Second, third, fourth… genetic codes - One spectacular case of code crowding - Edward N. Trifonov - video https://vimeo.com/81930637 In the preceding video, Trifonov elucidates codes that are, simultaneously, in the same sequence, coding for DNA curvature, Chromatin Code, Amphipathic helices, and NF kappaB. In fact, at the 58:00 minute mark he states, "Reading only one message, one gets three more, practically GRATIS!". And please note that this was just an introductory lecture in which Trifinov just covered the very basics and left many of the other codes out of the lecture. Codes which code for completely different, yet still biologically important, functions. In fact, at the 7:55 mark of the video, there are 13 codes that are listed on a powerpoint, although the writing was too small for me to read.bornagain77
April 23, 2014
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Yes Nick the genome must surely be junk because the evidence free wishful speculation of non-falsifiable Darwinian speculations predict it. Then, on the other hand, for those not so enamored with the baseless fantasies of atheists, reality beckons! DNA - Replication, Wrapping & Mitosis - video https://vimeo.com/33882804 DNA Packaging: Nucleosomes and Chromatin Excerpt: each of us has enough DNA to go from here to the Sun and back more than 300 times, or around Earth's equator 2.5 million times! How is this possible? http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/DNA-Packaging-Nucleosomes-and-Chromatin-310 Chromosome and Kinetochore https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JpOJ4F4984 3-D Structure Of Human Genome: Fractal Globule Architecture Packs Two Meters Of DNA Into Each Cell - Oct. 2009 Excerpt: the information density in the nucleus is trillions of times higher than on a computer chip -- while avoiding the knots and tangles that might interfere with the cell's ability to read its own genome. Moreover, the DNA can easily unfold and refold during gene activation, gene repression, and cell replication. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091008142957.htmbornagain77
April 23, 2014
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the possibility that most of the genome is junk, which is a direct implication of the position that most of the genome is evolving neutrally
Isn't this a testable hypothesis. Shouldn't one be able if he/she had the skills and access to the data be able to determine which sections are mutating and which are not?
For example, if we took multiple genomes from humans or mice or rats (these are the three genomes for which there is the most data) that are from very different parts of the world one should be able to compare the non-coding regions to see which are conserved and which are mutating away. human There are genomes from Africa, Europe, Australia and New Guinea which represent 10's of thousands of years of isolation. Then there is the Neanderthal genome.
Is there a reason why we couldn't use them to compare the different non-coding regions of the genome to see what has been conserved?jerry
April 23, 2014
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But, the fact that Sal couldn't even bother to mention the possibility that most of the genome is junk, which is a direct implication of the position that most of the genome is evolving neutrally (as well as lots of other evidence), is yet another thing that will encourage Larry Moran to keep using the term "IDiot."NickMatzke_UD
April 23, 2014
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"Or possibly it’s because he believes most of the genome is junk–a view that seems to be losing favor among evolutionary biologists." Actually, what's actually happening is that the evolutionary biologists are winning over the ENCODE people, who are in full retreat on their "most of the genome is functional" position. http://judgestarling.tumblr.com/post/83591181083/encode-nih-in-pnas-2014-in-2012-the-dog-ate-our-labNickMatzke_UD
April 23, 2014
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You lost your argument in the third sentence by demonstrating your complete lack of knowledge about natural selection. " The ability to select for or against a trait involves the cost of sacrificing individual lives." Even first year biology students know that natural selection is not dependent on the sacrifice of individual lives. It only requires an increased rate of reproduction as compared to those that lack the trait bAcartia_bogart
April 22, 2014
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So much for "free peer review". Larry Moran is complaining about this blog post but doesn't offer a counter-argument. Nor has anyone yet done so in the comments. If I were to guess, maybe he takes issue with the "tornado in a junkyard" analogy since under neutral evolution the more deleterious mutations are still selected away? Or possibly it's because he believes most of the genome is junk--a view that seems to be losing favor among evolutionary biologists. As Dr. Moran previously blogged:
In my opinion, the evidence for massive amounts of junk DNA in our genome is overwhelming but I struggle to convince other scientists of this ... I recently attended a meeting of evolutionary biologists and I'm pretty sure that the majority still don't feel very comfortable with the idea that 90% of our genome is junk.
I wonder what percentage of junk is closest to the consensus among ev biologists? 70%? 50%? 20%? Even under young earth creation you would expect some junk since the population genetics models show functional coding elements being destroyed much more quickly than they could be created. Now if you'll excuse me I need to go to the kitchen to get some more popcorn.JoeCoder
April 22, 2014
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