Dinesh D’Souza on socialism:

_{kairosfocus
November 21, 2021

Defending our Civilization, Geo-strategic issues, Lessons of History, rhetoric

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Defending our Civilization
Geo-strategic issues
Lessons of History
rhetoric}

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Let us watch:

Food for thought. END

PS: As it seems necessary here is the historically anchored political spectrum with Overton Window:

And, here is what we need to know on culture/colour revolution pushes

Comments

"The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable." -- John Kenneth GalbraithSeversky_{November 27, 2021
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Free markets are great for those with the wherewithal to participate, not so great for those that can't. For example there is a market for Rolls-Royce cars - if you have the money. I don't so, for me, the market might as well not exist. The free market system certainly does have advantages but it is certainly not a "silver-bullet" solution for all of societies woes. More seriously, the private health system in the US can provide excellent care, as I can personally attest, again if you can afford it. But one of the reasons it can provide such high-quality care to those that can afford it is that it disburdened itself of having provide care for 45 million of the poorest and neediest Americans. It priced them right out of the market. The UK's National Health Service has problems in terms of shortages of finance, resources and staff but, again as I can attest, a British citizen that needs a procedure costing hundreds of thousands of pounds/dollars will get it, without having to show up front they can pay for it or risk being turned away by the hospital. An artificial joint that may cost a few hundred to manufacture does not have a price-tag of tens of thousands by the time it gets to the patient in hospital. Nobody in the UK goes bankrupt as a result of unforeseen medical expenses. So which is it to be?Seversky_{November 27, 2021
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Thanks Jerry. What people think about specific infringements on the free market system is a good way to focus discussion.Joe Schooner_{November 27, 2021
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do you think that Biden’s Buy American order is appropriate? If so, why? If not, why not?
I didn’t know that Biden had such a plan. No harm in that unless the difference is substantial. It was a Trump plan too. However, we went from energy independent to begging for good oil deals from others in less than a year. We buy a lot of products from outside the US. For example, clothing and a lot of electronics. Both countries benefit. It creates a more stable world. However, buying in the US has expanded benefits as these purchase will help fund local financing of other goods and services. At the moment the nation has a labor shortage and does not need stimulus. So what’s all the stimulus money for? ————- For another article on the failure of the left by left writers. This time on C19 policy. https://unherd.com/2021/11/the-lefts-covid-failure/ Why anyone would vote for a Democrat is beyond me. If they didn’t control the press, they would have trouble electing a dog catcher. Republicans are not the greatest but they are light years better than Democrats. By the way, Build Back Better sounds almost identical to Make America Great Again.jerry_{November 27, 2021
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Jerry, do you think that Biden’s Buy American order is appropriate? If so, why? If not, why not? Or, to focus the discussion, maybe KF can relay two or three of the most dangerous policies being implemented, or recently implemented.Joe Schooner_{November 27, 2021
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When someone is in a hole, they should stop digging. I have been studying economics for over 30 years and have read widely. So someone who obviously knows nothing is now an expert. Certain activities are best solved collectively but this does not mean the collective owns and operates what they set up. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don’t. It’s called the problem of the commons or the problem of shared resources or shared problems. So sewage is a good example. Usually it is funded collectively and mostly handled by a government organization but sometimes outside private organizations run the facilities. For roads neatly all the major projects are done by private organizations but paid for by the collective. One of the things the collective does is implement what has worked someplace else, another collective or a solution by a private organization. There are corporations that specialize in sewage and waste treatment and their solutions are often sold to the collective. Similarly for nearly every activity a collective performs. For example, nearly every collective has an IT operation that uses the products and services of private corporations. Hayek recommended a system of providing security for the unfortunate and he is the epitome of advocating free market economies. So social security is not necessarily a socialist activity, it’s a wealth distribution.
If the policies mentioned at 111 are not socialist, as Jerry claims, why is the socialist boogeyman raised whenever they are brought up.
It’s the Welfare State bogeyman that is at play and mainly the arrogant assumption that a few smart people know what’s best. Again I suggest you ask questions instead of providing irrelevant examples.
Companies and people should be free to do whatever they want as long as it does no harm to others, or the benefits to everyone far outweigh the harms., and the harms can be mitigated.
There is a supply/demand curve and both sides need to be free for it to be a free market. Both sides should believe they have gotten a good deal. Obviously harm to one side is not a free market. For those interested- how did this get published - see following link - about the ineptitude of the Democrats and their form of government, by a New York Times editor and another journalist. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNDgcjVGHIwjerry_{November 27, 2021
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PPS: ponder on so-called green malinvestment and implications.
Sewer systems, wastewater treatment, recycling, atmospheric discharge treatment, laws around the handling of dangerous goods, sustainable farming practices, regulations on automobile efficiency and exhaust limits, and restrictions on the sale of endangered species are all “green malinvestments”, and are all counter to the free market system. A truly free market system has been shown to be very dangerous. Our market is a balance between the desires of the company owners and the welfare of the people. If the policies mentioned at 111 are not socialist, as Jerry claims, why is the socialist boogeyman raised whenever they are brought up. Companies and people should be free to do whatever they want as long as it does no harm to others, or the benefits to everyone far outweigh the harms., and the harms can be mitigated.Joe Schooner_{November 27, 2021
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PPS: ponder on so-called green malinvestment and implications.kairosfocus_{November 27, 2021
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PS: I suspect ignorance of sound economics is rather widespread including some who have studied it. Here is my quick and dirty macro-oriented, Austrian approach -- Roger Garrison's PPF and Hayek triangle with loanable funds market framework -- tutorial (which I know to have been helpful), with a link to a for dummies. Note, this helps us understand saturation of an economy and how stagflation can arise.kairosfocus_{November 27, 2021
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Jerry, the largest example of an explicitly "Socialist" polity and economy with wide cultural diversity was one certain . . . Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, USSR, CCCP in Cyrillic. Not exactly a great exemplar of long term viability and lawful freedom. KFkairosfocus_{November 27, 2021
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@Joe Schooner Socialism such as nazism and communism, is not a rational proposition. It is only interesting as an ideological dysfunction. Socialism is not one of many different opinions that you may agree or disagree with. Socialism undermines the concept of a personal opinion.mohammadnursyamsu_{November 27, 2021
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All the freebies/benefits from the Welfare State would not exist in a socialist economy because there would not be enough production to feed and clothe the people. Sounds nice but things besides fruits do not grow on trees. People have to work hard to produce them. But robots are coming. They have their own problems. The Scandinavian countries are not socialist countries. Sweden is actually a freer economy than is the US. My guess is that those who say they support socialism have no idea about economics. It just sounds good to them. And they believe small homogeneous economies are socialist because they have generous benefits. They never point to a large economy with several cultures within.jerry_{November 27, 2021
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Oh, and how about socialized education? Please watch the documentary, "Waiting for Superman." It will break your heart (as it did mine). For an alternative, consider privatizing all education along the model of a doctor's or a dentist's offices. Currently, states are funding education somewhere around $10,000 - $20,000+ depending on which state you're in. Let's say it's $15,000 and you have 30 students in your class. That's $450,000 to start with. But you'd need to pay your own salary (the average High School Teacher salary in the United States is $62,901 as of October 29, 2021,), rent a classroom, pay for group health insurance and liability insurance, rent classroom furniture, books, facility maintenance, utilities, and contribute to the cost of hiring a senior and a junior office manager and an accountant assuming 10-20 teachers in your school. The same model works at a college level. I bet you could easily double your take-home pay! The average College Professor salary in the United States is $158,643 as of October 29, 2021. Notice that students would be able to "fire" underperforming instructors by not signing up with them. Do the math for your area and see whether I'm right. -QQuerius_{November 26, 2021
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Jerry vs JS: The point is, of course, that all modern states have social welfare policies and such policies, within prudent limits, are compatible with lawful state, free enterprise, market based economic organisation. The problem is to sustain long term reasonable affordability, in face of pressure to resort to inflationism the tax on the future that ruins the macroeconomy. The distinctly socialist attitude is the notion that the state acting as representative of that abstraction, the people; of right should monopolise the economy explicitly or implicitly, and therefore centralised planning of the economy, bypassing the market or crippling it through fatal distortions. This leads to the information choking and problem of value that von Mises highlighted in the 1920's and was fully vindicated in the 1980's as the collapse loomed. The rhetoric behind state monopolisation varies, it used to be more directly class warfare pivoting on the discredited, inherently incoherent labour theory of value that refused to acknowledge certain key services, portraying them as oppressive parasitism. Now, that myth of systemic oppression and liberation of the oppressed has broadened, first by the fascists who targetted nation or race typically as the pivot of oppression and crisis, with the superman above law political messiah as rescuer. Ironically, so called critical race theory, a form of cultural marxism exhibits much of the same fascist pattern. Complete with red guard street thugs protected by state apparatus. Similar patterns extend to any number of critical theories spread across the academy and extending into policy, to ruinous effect. All of these, seek to dissolve the BATNA of lawfulness which defends core rights anchored to our inherent, built in nature and tied to associated duties elaborated from the first duties of reason. The end is sliding into lawless, ideological oligarchy and associated nihilism. That is the warning of Milada Horakova (falsely convicted of treasonous uprising and executed by torture by rope) and the rest of 100 million victims of such ideologies in power over the past 100 years. Again, we need to hear from the yet living eyewitnesses. KFkairosfocus_{November 26, 2021
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Joe Schooner @111, The problems with all of these "socialist" services is when the government is extremely inept, inefficient, and large. Universal Healthcare - you'll get one FREE band-aid twice a year after standing in line for six hours and filling out 8 pages of forms. Each band-aid costs the government $24. Paid Maternity Leave - Sure, but it's not free--the money comes from somewhere and you either pay higher taxes, the employer pays you less, or a combination. Unemployment Insurance - When I once had to file for unemployment (after paying a ton of money into the system), I was shocked how little I received. The old term for unemployment insurance was "savings." Of course, the government right now is robbing everyone of their savings in the form of inflation. Paid Tuition - A giant subsidy for academia. It's paid by your grandparents, your parents, you, your children, and your grandchildren at a double or triple the cost. The joke's on you. Subsidized Public Transportation - In our area public transportation is evidenced by virtually empty buses and trains (I was one of the few who commuted on buses and trains for many years). The schedule was reasonably reliable, but the light rail had frequent breakdowns. Mandatory vacation pay - How's this socialist? Companies that don't provide vacation days (or lunch time) won't be able to hold onto their employees. They'll simply quit, take their vacation, and start at a different company. That's why America encourages illegal migration as a source of cheap, off-the-books labor and, magically, Congress has not been able to reform immigration regardless of which party is in power. Imagine that! Increased Banking Regulations - Again, how is regulation socialist? Also, in the U.S. many regulatory agencies have been "captured' by the industries they're supposed to regulate. Minimum Wage - See Mandatory Vacation Pay above. Social Security - Privatized Social Security investment would be far more efficient. Do the math. You'd probably be able to have twice as much if you saved it Welfare - Whatever you tax, you get less of; whatever what you subsidize, you get more of. I'd think that people receiving public welfare should show their gratitude by working a guaranteed job in public service--cleaning up the environment, removing graffiti, scrubbing sidewalks, etc. There's a good book on the subject called "Victorian Compassion" IIRC. However, I thought the Victorians we're too punitive, but they had some good ideas. In contrast, I was able to find out many years ago that in the metro area that I lived in 90% of the cost of welfare was consumed by its administration. -QQuerius_{November 26, 2021
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Querius, I could say, show us a circle of infinite radius, but that would be superfluous. Instead, I simply note that an arc with infinite radius of curvature is another way to say, straight line. A Rhombus bound by four equal length straight lines with one vertex 90 degrees is a square, and it is not a circle. Again, there are no circle squares, as the requisites of circularity and those of squareness are not mutually compossible. The issue is one of logic of being, tied to distinct identity. A is itself, in light of its distinct characteristics. The fact that an exchange is being made to undermine this, shows just how broken our thinking now is, due to how we have been misled by those who should have taught us better. Even our ability to make meaningful communication and carry out digital computing required for this thread pivots on said principle. It is pervasive, inescapable, inescapably true and it is our duty to respect it, if we are to be rational. KFkairosfocus_{November 26, 2021
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Many would disagree with you.
As I said you do not understand what you are talking about. The welfare state is not socialism. Paying for the welfare state is always the issue with its own problems. It is asking for one group of people to work harder than another group so that the latter group does not have to work as hard. Why don’t you read a book on socialism. I suggest Muravchik.jerry_{November 26, 2021
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Nothing you mention are socialist policies.
Many would disagree with you.
Where does the money to pay for these freebies come from?
From tax payers. Same as other government funded programs.Joe Schooner_{November 26, 2021
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Are there any socialist policies that people here support?
Nothing you mention are socialist policies. They are welfare state policies. Apparently you do not understand socialism and economics. Maybe you should ask questions about it instead. The policies you list all seem wonderful till one asks how are they to be paid for. Where does the money to pay for these freebies come from?jerry_{November 26, 2021
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Are there any socialist policies that people here support? Universal healthcare? Paid maternity leave? Unemployment insurance? Paid tuition? Subsidized public transit? Mandatory vacation pay? Increased banking regulations? A minimum wage? Social security? Welfare?Joe Schooner_{November 26, 2021
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@Origenes I did my homework. I defined words, and defined them in accordance with the logic used in common discourse. You can chew on it that there exists a (wrong) definition of making a choice that does not incorporate emotions, and there exists a definition that does incorporate (subjective) emotions.mohammadnursyamsu_{November 26, 2021
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Kairosfocus,
Which of course fails to demonstrate that one and the same entity under same circumstances is a circle and simultaneously a square.
A square can be assembled from four equal segments of the same circle of infinite radius. Four equal-length lines projected onto a small sphere is by definition a square but appear as a circle. One can argue that a square has fillets of radius 0 at each corner and a circle is a square with fillets of radius = 1/2 the length of a side of a square. Thus, squares and circles belong to the same subset of all geometric objects, "square-circles" (tm).
That said, yes reality can be difficult to understand especially given how we may have conceptual distortions.
Yes, exactly my point. This difficulty, along with philosophical arguments, is not dissimilar to Plato's allegory of the cave.
As for, oh it’s old news, that is little more that let us forget the past and repeat its errors, leading to the circumstance reported by Barna in his survey of Millennials, “[c]lose to one-half of young adults say they prefer Socialism to Capitalism.” That failure to heed lessons of yet living history speaks for itself, sadly and with force. It is linked to the attitude that shouts, abolish the police [then screams against those who then emerge to defend life and property in the face of burning, looting, mayhem and even murder by mob], rather than seeking sound, incrementally tested, reliable reform.
Well said! The same sort of mass hysteria occurred during Napoleonic times, Soviet Communism, Italian Fascism, and the current American Fascism being promoted as "socialism." -QQuerius_{November 26, 2021
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Mohammadnursyamsu At this point we do not have a conversation. I have no idea what you're talking about.Origenes_{November 26, 2021
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@Origenes You revert to meaningless naysaying. I have got great evidence. To make a choice in terms of what is best, does not throw out emotions, but to fundamentally define making a choice in terms of what is best, does throw out all emotions. As can be proven with logic that the emotions are thrown out, if choice is defined in terms of what is best. You seem not to grasp this nuanced distinction between defining choice in terms of what is best, and choice in terms of what is best as being a complicated way of choosing, based on the fundamental definition of choice in terms of spontaneity. To define choice in terms of what is best is incorrect, but to choose in terms of what is best is valid. My theory also perfectly explains why communists are atheists, and why nazis objectify personal character as scientific fact. The communists as being scientific socialists, they have thrown out the subjective human spirit from the concept of choice. So then if you throw out the subjective human spirit, then why not throw God the holy spirit out as well? And the nazis being socialists, they accept the word spirit, but their whole movement is based on objectifying this spirit in terms of racial science. And that nazis are preoccupied in terms inferior v superior, is deravitive of the worse and better options in a choice. So you can see a general pattern of denial of the entire subjective part of reality, proceeding from defining choice in terms of what is best. And your own acceptance of the subjective part of reality is also absent / weak, precisely because you define making a choice in terms of what is best.mohammadnursyamsu_{November 26, 2021
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Irony is when someone says it is irony that they claim they don't tell the truth and then provide no truth statement but only a non sensical insult.
Jerry/75 Question: do you ever admit the truth? An ironic question from an admitted Mad Man given that the advertising industry has little interest in the truth. But, yes, I admit the truth.
I take that as a no
Do you even know what truth is?
You are welcome to challenge any claim I make for truth value. Can you say the same thing and respond to claims you are not admitting the truth? If you do, that would take the discussions to a new level. Aside: advertising is one of the many things I have done. I learned a lot about humans while in advertising, both the customers, the clients, the people in the business and those that oppose it. Every bit of advertising I was involved with had to go through lawyers for vetting the truth of any claim. For health claims it also went through an outside agency that was quite adversarial. Now given that, a lot of the claims did take advantage of consumer ignorance and would emphasize minutiae claims as if they were important. Also there was an eternal search for ways of improving one's products so as to provide a new benefit or a better experience. And yes, more effective advertising.jerry_{November 26, 2021
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Mohammadnursyamsu @
You failed to address the evidence that dictionaries define choosing in terms of figuring out the best option.
Figuring out the best option does not imply “throwing out all emotions.” However it does imply not blindly acting upon the very first emotion that presents itself.
And in artificial intelligence they commonly talk about as like a chesscomputer it being a decision.
People also talk about the sun choosing not to shine. Inaccurate use of words. Computers do not make decisions, instead they execute algorithms.
And Dennett says that a thermostat is making decisions, although he also says that people are not ready to hear that “truth”.
Dennett really? Dennett saying that a thermostat is making decisions is obviously insane, but, in his defense, he has made far more outrageous statements than that.
My theory about socialism works out perfectly, and it’s got the evidence. It provides a strong psychological motive for socialism.
Nope, emotions motivates people to become socialists and/or materialists.
So this Nagel talks about not liking things, but the government he supports would generally use science to establish what product is good, and disregard free market liking products.
Are you talking about Joe Biden?Origenes_{November 26, 2021
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@Origenes You failed to address the evidence that dictionaries define choosing in terms of figuring out the best option. Why do you disregard the crucial evidence? And in artificial intelligence they commonly talk about as like a chesscomputer it being a decision. And Dennett says that a thermostat is making decisions, although he also says that people are not ready to hear that "truth". My theory about socialism works out perfectly, and it's got the evidence. It provides a strong psychological motive for socialism. Sure even the people who throw emotions out on the intellectual level, still acknowledge emotions on a common discourse level. That is obvious. The creationist logic is inherent in common discourse, and unavoidable to a large extent. So this Nagel talks about not liking things, but the government he supports would generally use science to establish what product is good, and disregard free market liking products. Logic dictates that what makes a choice can only be subjective, meaning it can only be identified with a chosen opinion. Emotions, personal character, the soul, the spirit, God, are all in this category on the side of what makes a choice. You appear to not use logic, rules, but instead you appear to fantasize whatever you want, about what the agency of a choice is. Courage, cowardice, love, hate, soul, spirit, God, these are all possible answers to a question of who, or what, made a decision turn out A instead of B. @KF You could say both opinions and facts need warranting, but it is totally different procedures for subjectivity and objectivity. And you still fail to substantially support subjectivity with logic. So that you put subjectivity and objectivity in one box of warranting, has led you to favor objectivity, and disregard the rules for subjectivity.mohammadnursyamsu_{November 26, 2021
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F/N: Overnight, I find it advisable to note that a cylinder that would fit within a cube -- height is equal to diameter of its round side -- is plainly not a circle-square. The circular and squarish aspects are different, relating to two differing cross sections. The vertical, rectangular one, is not the horizontal, circular one, and the resulting square is a square whilst the resulting circle is a circle. Neither of these is a distinct object exhibiting features of both; instead, the cylinder is an example of a kind of superposition and synthesis that creates a third distinct entity using properties of circles and squares. The point remains, that a distinct A is itself, A, i/l/o its core compossible characteristics, as a matter of logic of being. KFkairosfocus_{November 26, 2021
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F/N: for those who may wish to go forward with a substantial discussion, I draw attention to 25 above, where specific issues from the previous discussion were cited. As for, oh it's old news, that is little more that let us forget the past and repeat its errors, leading to the circumstance reported by Barna in his survey of Millennials, "[c]lose to one-half of young adults say they prefer Socialism to Capitalism." That failure to heed lessons of yet living history speaks for itself, sadly and with force. It is linked to the attitude that shouts, abolish the police [then screams against those who then emerge to defend life and property in the face of burning, looting, mayhem and even murder by mob], rather than seeking sound, incrementally tested, reliable reform. KF PS: Jerry at 4 above, has a useful clip that can help to frame onward, responsible, rational, on-topic discussion:
Socialism was man’s most ambitious attempt to supplant religion with a doctrine claiming to ground itself in “science.” Each failure to create societies of abundance or give birth to “the New Man” inspired more searching for the path to the promised land: revolution, communes, social democracy, communism, fascism [--> yes, this is a heterodox form of socialism, cartelise the Capitalists and turn them into pensioners of the state where they cannot say no to our superman- political- messiah- in- the- face- of- "unprecedented"- crisis; on pain of Hugo Junkers' fate], Arab socialism, African socialism. None worked, and some exacted a staggering human toll. Then, after two centuries of wishful thinking and bitter disappointment, socialism imploded in a fin de siècle drama of falling walls and collapsing regimes. It was an astonishing denouement but what followed was no less astonishing. After the hiatus of a couple of decades, new voices were raised, as if innocent of all that had come before, proposing to try it all over again. Joshua Muravchik [in his Heaven on Earth: The Rise, Fall, and Afterlife of Socialism] traces the pursuit of this phantasm, presenting sketches of the thinkers and leaders who developed the theory, led it to power, and presided over its collapse, as well as those who are trying to revive it today. Heaven on Earth is a story filled with character and event while at the same time giving us an epic chronicle of a movement that tried to turn the world upside down—and for a time succeeded.
PPS: I see some typical inflationist fallacies of projection here,
Note, E Warren, selective reference: "Wondering why your Thanksgiving groceries cost more this year? It’s because greedy corporations are charging Americans extra just to keep their stock prices high. This is outrageous." vs AS, on the left off 1st para point: "Labor and supply-chain challenges have raised costs for companies selling consumer products."
Where, stagflation due to pumping up aggregate demand in the face of global mismanagement of pandemic and needless constriction of energy sources leading to constraining supply potential may be material factors. Of course, inflation is too much money chasing too few goods so we can ask where the expansion of money supply and/or velocity comes from and where the constraints on production and energy are coming from. PPPS: Note discussion of stagflation here.kairosfocus_{November 26, 2021
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Origenes, you have pointed to the self-referential incoherence that results from evolutionary materialistic scientism. No wonder those influenced by it so often reject first duties of responsible reason and resort to willful distortion, distraction, manipulation and imposition by force of agendas that are irresponsible or outright nihilistic and ruinous. Socialism in aftermath of the collapse of the Iron curtain and related collapse of linked ideas on economic policy and social organisation being one of the clearest examples. And too often, things advocated under green colours of environmentalism turn out to be watermelons, i.e. a green cover for a socialist red substance that returns us to the same failed policies of government domination and bureaucratisation of an economy that predictably chokes on the information problem. But, lawless oligarchy is the natural state of government, power is addictive (and invites corruption), and the undermining of lawfulness rooted in the Ciceronian first duties of reason, are all seductive. KF PS: As a reminder, duties to truth, right reason, warrant and wider prudence, sound conscience, neighbour, fairness and justice etc. These are pervasive in our arguing, even arguments of those trying to object and so manifest first principle character. Inescapable, so inescapably true so self-evident. In this case notice how objectors tried to beat up the messenger, failed to notice he spoke as an eyewitness to even moderate socialism's economic consequences, turned to toxic distractors and distortions and some now object to pulling back on track. All of this in the face of the ghosts of Milada Horakova and the rest of 100 million victims.kairosfocus_{November 26, 2021
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