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Common descent: Ann Gauger’s response to Vincent Torley

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Here:

Well, I must say I didn’t expect to be honored by a 7500 word broadside by philosopher Dr. Vincent Torley, assisted by Dr. Josh Swamidass, Assistant Professor at Washington University. I guess they must have a lot of spare time. The reason for the post at Uncommon Descent? Both hold common descent to be absolutely, incontrovertibly, obviously true, and they apparently wish I would fall into line and stop embarrassing them by doubting common descent. They wish I would give up my “peculiar kind of intellectual obstinacy.”

The argument is in the end all about common descent. (There are a few accusations of poor reasoning, obscuring the issue, and even a little bad faith along the way.) Look, intelligent design is not wedded to common descent. Neither is it wedded to a denial of common descent. Intelligent design states that there is evidence of design in the universe. I think we are in agreement on this point. In terms of biology, how the designer instantiated that design is still subject to debate, based on the strength of the evidence for each position.

As a biologist, I see evidence on both sides of the debate. The evidence is equivocal — hence the fact that ID advocates take different positions on the subject. Yet common descent — the idea that organisms descend from one or a few common ancestors — is treated like a sacred cow by many scientists, and even, it appears, by some philosophers. Indignation arises that anyone would doubt it, would even have questions. Scientists take common descent as axiomatic, and accept evidence that is itself interpreted through a lens of common descent as proof of common descent. As a consequence, any evidence against common descent meets opposition and is explained away.More.

Background: Vincent Torley: Evidence for common descent: here

Comments
Not sure I understand the question, Bill. The nuclear export sequence is a chemical signal, encoded in the nucleotide sequence of a protein, no?wd400
June 16, 2016
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WD400
Nuclear import is an example of proteins getting to where they need to be. None of these require anything but chemistry
Really? Non of this requires sequences? How does chemistry form sequences?bill cole
June 16, 2016
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Germanicus @214: Thank you for commenting.
I find wise that you (and the others) take seriously the suggestion of Wd400 and start to study a little about basic biology. This is not matter of personal attack, but only the fact that you don’t have sufficient knowledge of some important topics of this field; this appears clear in the discussion and is a big obstacle in the understanding of the argumentations proposed. Expertise like system engineering or informatics can be very nice to introduce some new insights in the topic, but without basic knowledge of e.g. biochemistry you are completely missing the total picture.
What is this basic biology that you imagine we don’t understand? The issues we have been discussing relate to a specific, unsupported claim. wd400 keeps referring to chemical reactions as sufficient for building an organism, but many people recognize that is not sufficient. As Origenes quoted above @213 “As Müller and Newman explain in their introduction, 'Detailed information at the level of the gene does not serve to explain form.'" Yet wd400 keeps claiming that all we need to do is specify the parts and chemistry will do the rest. I’m certainly open to learning whatever “basic biology” you think will help answer the question of whether a parts list is sufficient for building an organism (it isn’t) or whether, as wd400 asserts, there is no programmatic information necessary (there is). Let us know what you think we need to learn about “basic biology” that will answer the question of organismal form and that will support the simplistic claims being made, and I’ll be happy to consider it. I’ll even elevate it to a head post for further discussion if you would like. It is ironic that we are being accused of misunderstanding basic biology when we are the ones trying valiantly to get some people to wake up and think beyond the “basic biology” of 60 years ago and realize, as experts have recognized, that you don’t just specify some parts and end up with a functional organism, that chemistry is a necessary but insufficient condition. ----- wd400:
. . . with EAs sneers about biologists blinkered view . . .
I certainly do not sneer at biology or biologists, so please don’t accuse me of that. What I do “sneer” at is the simplistic, decades-past-its-time, naïve, contrary-to-evidence, neo-Darwinian-based assertions that everything needed for an organism is specified in the nucleotide sequence for the parts, that the parts will automatically come together by dint of chemistry, that nearly everything else other than the parts list is just junk, that no broader plan or program is required to build an organism. Everyone should sneer at that.Eric Anderson
June 16, 2016
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EA, You seem much more interested in telling and retelling this story of yours than engaging in any detail. Good luck with that, I guess. Querius, It takes a special sort of tribalism to read this thread, with EAs sneers about biologists blinkered view, Pav's rant about my "standing in the way of true science" and what ever BA has been copying and pasting and single out those posts as a "personal attack".wd400
June 16, 2016
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Germanicus @214
I find wise that you (and the others) [...]start to study a little about basic biology. [...] the fact that you don’t have sufficient knowledge of some important topics of this field.
Interesting comments. What do you mean by "sufficient knowledge" within the context of your commentary? On a scale 0-1 (zero to one) where zero is complete ignorance of the subject and 1 is total knowledge of the subject, where would you place your knowledge of Biology? BTW, mine is close to zero. Perhaps in the last few years -after some intensive studying- it has gained a few thousandths (0.001 x n, where n<5), but I kind of doubt it has reached such a high level. If it ever reaches 0.01, then I might host a party to celebrate that amazing milestone with friends and relatives. But that may never happen. The more I study it, the more I have to learn from it. It seems like a never-ending story. Every day the fraction seems to decrease. :)Dionisio
June 16, 2016
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Querius @211, I have followed this post with interest also without participating, but after your comment and some others of EA, Origenes & Co. I cannot resist and give also my comment. I find wise that you (and the others) take seriously the suggestion of Wd400 and start to study a little about basic biology. This is not matter of personal attack, but only the fact that you don't have sufficient knowledge of some important topics of this field; this appears clear in the discussion and is a big obstacle in the understanding of the argumentations proposed. Expertise like system engineering or informatics can be very nice to introduce some new insights in the topic, but without basic knowledge of e.g. biochemistry you are completely missing the total picture.Germanicus
June 16, 2016
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Eric Anderson: Incidentally, this thread may have uncovered at least one aspect of the simplistic thinking that leads a person to believe that most DNA is junk. After all, the thinking goes, all we need to do is specify some parts in the DNA and the machine will build itself all by chemistry. It’s easy! No plan needed. No program required. Just specify some gene products and we’re done. Everything else is probably just junk. Amazing what chemistry can do.
Stephen Meyer:
Neo-Darwinists have assumed that genes possess all the information necessary to specify the form of an animal. They have also assumed that mutations in genes will suffice to generate the new information necessary to build a new form of animal life.9 Yet if biologists understand organismal form as resulting from constraints on the possible arrangements of matter at many levels in the biological hierarchy—from genes and proteins, to cell types and tissues, to organs and body plans—then biological organisms may well exhibit many levels of information-rich structure. Discoveries in developmental biology have confirmed this possibility. … As Müller and Newman explain in their introduction, “Detailed information at the level of the gene does not serve to explain form.”5 Instead, as Newman explains, “epigenetic” or “contextual information” plays a crucial role in the formation of animal “body assemblies” during embryological development.6 Müller and Newman not only highlighted the importance of epigenetic information to the formation of body plans during development; they also argued that it must have played a similarly important role in the origin and evolution of animal body plans in the first place. They concluded that recent discoveries about the role of epigenetic information in animal development pose a formidable challenge to the standard neo-Darwinian account of the origin of these body plans—perhaps the most formidable of all. … I first learned about the problem of epigenetic information and the Spemann and Mangold experiment while driving to a private meeting of Darwin-doubting scientists on the central coast of California in 1993. In the car with me was Jonathan Wells, who was then finishing a Ph.D. in developmental biology at the University of California at Berkeley. Like some others in his field, Wells had come to reject the (exclusively) “gene-centric” view of animal development and to recognize the importance of nongenetic sources of information. By that time, I had studied many questions and challenges to standard evolutionary theories arising out of molecular biology. But epigenetics was new to me. On our drive, I asked Wells why developmental biology was so important to evolutionary theory and to assessing neo-Darwinism. I’ll never forget his reply. “Because” he said, “that’s where the whole theory is going to unravel.”
Origenes
June 16, 2016
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wd400:
All I can say (again) is I think you should study some biology before you commit to this neovitalism [or] whatever it is you are imagining.
Neovitalism? The only thing I’m committing to is logic and systems engineering. You seem to be the one who thinks molecules can just come together by dint of chemistry and, through some utterly unexplainable magic of chemistry, become a living organism.
If you want to know how a limb develops the consider the effects of Shh etc.
There are lots of things that affect limb development. Again, you are conflating the necessary for the sufficient. There isn’t anything inherent in chemistry that tells your body it should have two arms or ten fingers, instead of three arms or eight fingers. It simply is not in the chemistry. And it isn't in the gene products either. So where is it?
If you don’t think chemicals can regulate others check out the lac operon. Nuclear import is an example of proteins getting to where they need to be. None of these require anything but chemistry.
Why would you say I don’t think chemicals can regulate others? Of course they can. But you miss the larger perspective. Again, you focus on a single chemical operation, within a pre-existing, functioning cell, that was put together in a highly specified way, with sensors and feedbacks and controls, and you say, “Gee, molecule X performed function Y according to the rules of chemistry. So that must be all that is needed – just chemistry!” Why don’t you take all the individual molecules in a cell -- shoot, even all of your gene products, nicely transcribed, translated and folded -- put them in a solution and see whether a functional cell results. Then we'll see whether your chemistry is sufficient to build an organism out of the parts. Hint: it isn't.
So i don’t know why you think understanding the generic underpinnings of biology prevents higher-level approaches.
I don’t think understanding the genetic underpinnings of biology prevents anything. The problem is not understanding genetics, and we all want more understanding of genetics. The problem is thinking that the parts explain the whole, that everything just comes together by force of chemistry, when it clearly does not. The problem is the entire bottom-up, molecules-to-man paradigm that naively assumes all we need are some gene products and then chemistry will take over and do the rest. The problem is the complete failure to recognize that chemistry is necessary, but not sufficient; that contingent possibilities are being realized via higher-level controls; that simply having a sequence of nucleotides for gene products does not guarantee an organism.Eric Anderson
June 15, 2016
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Eric Anderson, Origenes, PaV, bornagain77 . . . Some really excellent points! To which wd400 responds:
All I can say (again) is I think you should study some biology before you commit to this neovitalism out whatever it is you are imagining.
That people continue to say things as ignorant as the last two comments really says something.
Do realize that wd400, by resorting to these personal attacks, has abandoned his arguments, and has conceded the point. -QQuerius
June 15, 2016
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Perhaps wd400, before he proclaims (once again) his usual shtick that we really don't understand evolution, should humble himself and realize that he is not even operating on the proper scientific framework for understanding biology in the first place? There is a paradigm shift currently happening in biology, and this shift certainly does not bode well for the reductive materialistic framework that undergirds Darwinian thought
Jim Al-Khalili, at the 2:30 minute mark of the following video, states, ",,and Physicists and Chemists have had a long time to try and get use to it (Quantum Mechanics). Biologists, on the other hand have got off lightly in my view. They are very happy with their balls and sticks models of molecules. The balls are the atoms. The sticks are the bonds between the atoms. And when they can't build them physically in the lab nowadays they have very powerful computers that will simulate a huge molecule.,, It doesn't really require much in the way of quantum mechanics in the way to explain it." At the 6:52 minute mark of the video, Jim Al-Khalili goes on to state: “To paraphrase, (Erwin Schrödinger in his book “What Is Life”), he says at the molecular level living organisms have a certain order. A structure to them that’s very different from the random thermodynamic jostling of atoms and molecules in inanimate matter of the same complexity. In fact, living matter seems to behave in its order and its structure just like inanimate cooled down to near absolute zero. Where quantum effects play a very important role. There is something special about the structure, about the order, inside a living cell. So Schrodinger speculated that maybe quantum mechanics plays a role in life”. Jim Al-Khalili – Quantum biology – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOzCkeTPR3Q Does DNA Have Telepathic Properties?-A Galaxy Insight - 2009 Excerpt: DNA has been found to have a bizarre ability to put itself together, even at a distance, when according to known science it shouldn't be able to.,,, The recognition of similar sequences in DNA’s chemical subunits, occurs in a way unrecognized by science. There is no known reason why the DNA is able to combine the way it does, and from a current theoretical standpoint this feat should be chemically impossible. http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2009/04/does-dna-have-t.html Classical and Quantum Information in DNA – Elisabeth Rieper – video (Longitudinal Quantum Information along the entire length of DNA discussed at the 19:30 minute mark; at 24:00 minute mark Dr Rieper remarks that practically the whole DNA molecule can be viewed as quantum information with classical information embedded within it) https://youtu.be/2nqHOnVTxJE?t=1176 (“Delocalized” Quantum) Sound-like bubbles whizzing around in DNA essential to life - Jun 1, 2016 Excerpt: new research in the UK has detected sound-like bubbles in DNA that is essential to life and which will change the fundamental understanding of biochemical reactions inside a cell. The research,,, describes how double-stranded DNA splits using delocalized sound waves that are the hallmark of quantum effects.,,, Dedicated enzymes responsible for making new proteins read the code by splitting the double strand in order to access the information. One of the big outstanding questions of biology has been how these enzymes find the initial hole or "bubble" in the double strand to start reading the code.,,, researcher Gopakumar Ramakrishnan said: "It had been proposed by theoreticians that such DNA bubbles might behave like sound waves, bouncing around in DNA like echoes in a cathedral. However, the current paradigm in biology is that such sound-like dynamics are irrelevant to biological function, as interaction of a biomolecule with the surrounding water will almost certainly destroy any of these effects.",,, Researchers in the Ultrafast Chemical Physics group carried out experiments with a laser that produces femtosecond laser pulses about a trillion times shorter than a camera flash. This allowed them to succeed in the detection of sound-like bubbles in DNA. They could show that these bubbles whiz around like bullets in a shooting gallery even in an environment very similar to that which can be found in a living cell. Thomas Harwood said, a researcher said: "The sound waves in DNA are not your ordinary sound waves. They have a frequency of a few terahertz or a billion times higher than a human or a dog can hear!" Professor Klaas Wynne, leader of the research team and Chair in Chemical Physics at the University of Glasgow, said, "The terahertz sound-like bubbles we have seen alter our fundamental understanding of biochemical reactions. There were earlier suggestions for a role of delocalized quantum phenomena in light harvesting, magneto reception, and olfaction." The new results now imply a much more general role for sound-like delocalized phenomena in biomolecular processes. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/science/Sound-like-bubbles-whizzing-around-in-DNA-essential-to-life/articleshow/52539817.cms Molecular Biology - 19th Century Materialism meets 21st Century Quantum Mechanics - video https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/vb.100000088262100/1141908409155424/?type=2&theater
bornagain77
June 15, 2016
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There are very good positive arguments for junk DNA that have been presented here many times. That people continue to say things as ignorant as the last two comments really says something.wd400
June 15, 2016
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Incidentally, this thread may have uncovered at least one aspect of the simplistic thinking that leads a person to believe that most DNA is junk. After all, the thinking goes, all we need to do is specify some parts in the DNA and the machine will build itself all by chemistry. It's easy! No plan needed. No program required. Just specify some gene products and we're done. Everything else is probably just junk. Amazing what chemistry can do.Eric Anderson
June 15, 2016
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wd400:
Pav, Non coding genes are genes, of course.
And this is the kind of equivocation that we see in Darwinists time and time again. Everything MUST fit the narrative; so redefine things until some semblance of the narrative working is restored. There's a word for this: unfalsifiability! First, the proof that there is no "Designer" is that most of DNA is "junk." Then when a function is found for the supposed "junk" DNA, then it's: "We knew it all along." Then, when ncDNA, which is essentially forms of RNA, i.e., transcribed, but not translated, then we call these "genes." Reasonable people subscribe to an "all-powerful" God. Darwinists subscribe to an "all-powerful" Narrative. Why don't you get out of the way of true science.?PaV
June 15, 2016
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Pav, Non coding genes are genes, of course. Origines and EA, All I can say (again) is I think you should study some biology before you commit to this neovitalism out whatever it is you are imagining. If you want to know how a limb develops the consider the effects of Shh etc. If you don't think chemicals can regulate others check out the lac operon. Nuclear import is an example of proteins getting to where they need to be. None of these require anything but chemistry. Genes interact with each other, of course, and the wider environment too. So i don't know why you think understanding the generic underpinnings of biology prevents higher-level approacheswd400
June 15, 2016
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Origenes @203: Unfortunately, we are dealing with an intellectual mistake at the most basic level, so I'm not sure how much any efforts to discuss it will help, although you have made a valiant effort. Some people seem to think that because biology utilizes chemistry in its operation, that biology can be fully explained by chemistry. This is of course nonsense. It is just as silly as asserting that because airplanes utilize the principles of gravity and aerodynamics in their operation, that gravity and aerodynamics somehow explain the operation and very existence of airplanes. The fact that a pre-existing, specifically-constructed machine performs a specific function in the presence of a specific molecule does not mean that everything just happens by chemistry, that there is no program, that there is no plan, that the parts themselves are all that matters. Remarkably, some people, however, seem to think so. I really think the disconnect occurs because we are dealing with chemical reactions. As I said @204, it is very tempting for someone to think that just because certain molecules will tend to react in solution, that this is the only thing going on. And if they look at it in an incredibly superficial and naive way -- focusing only on one particular reaction and assuming all the machinery is already in place -- then it becomes tempting to view biology as just a long series of automatic chemical reactions. But if we take even a modest intellectual effort to step back, see the broader organism or cell, ask some basic questions about the source of the machinery already in place, the steps that would be required to put that machinery in place, the information needed to operate the system, it quickly becomes clear that the "biology-is-just-chemistry" viewpoint is utterly and completely wrong. Somehow we have to help people cross the intellectual bridge from a myopic, blinders-on view of a single reaction in a pre-existing system, to a more complete, engineering-level view of the overall cell or organism. I'm not sure how to best convey that. And unfortunately it may be that some people will hear and see, but still refuse to understand.Eric Anderson
June 15, 2016
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wd400: Even setting aside the fact that DNA often does not map directly to RNA, which sometimes does not map directly to amino acids, which often do not fold directly into the correct form needed for function in the cell. And even setting aside that at each of these states there are contingent possibilities -- meaning there are sensors, feedbacks, controls, switches, and the like that determine which contingent option will result and, therefore, the process from DNA to functional gene product is not just a matter of chemical reactions. Even setting all this aside, we note that your chemical reactions are managed by gene products. What is that word "managing" doing in there? What is doing the managing? That is part of the "program" that is at issue. You can't just put a bunch of parts in a bag or in an aqueous solution and have them self-assemble into a functional whole. People get confused with biology because they note (correctly so) that certain molecules can react spontaneously with each other. Unfortunately, they then extend that simplistic observation to the unsupportable claim that the whole organism is just a series of natural reactions occurring purely by dint of chemistry. They imagine, in essence, that with biology, you can just put the parts in a solution and, amazingly, an organism will result. Thus, we keep hearing evolutionists try to protect their theory from analysis by arguing that we cannot apply basic principles from our experience, that normal engineering constraints can be disregarded, that "biology is counter-intuitive," that "biology is different." This is a tempting thought. At a very simplistic and superficial level it almost even seems believable. That is until we start to dig a bit deeper and realize that so much of what happens in the cell is, as you say, "managed." Just because some chemical reactions occur between molecules in solution does not mean they will automatically result in a functional organism any more than shaking a bag full of magnets and steel parts will result in a functional machine. Indeed, default, spontaneous chemical reactions are often anathema to what needs to happen for a living cell. The cell often has to actively fight against spontaneous reactions that would otherwise occur. The problem of interfering cross reactions in biology is huge, and is something that has to be carefully and specifically "managed." The information to do all this managing must be there somewhere. The program has to exist. It does not exist in the parts themselves. It does not exist in the principles of chemistry. Where is it? Almost every aspect of an organism is contingent. If we consider even the most mundane of physical features it becomes clear that chemistry isn't the answer. What determines where a body part will grow, how long it will grow, what precise shape it will have, and so on? In every case it could be different than it is, so chemistry cannot be the answer. And to say, "well it is managed by other gene products" isn't helpful either. What makes them manage it thusly, instead of some other way? Where did they get the ability to manage the process? Further, how did the managers get put together, and what managed that process? It makes no more sense to say that when we are dealing with chemicals in solution we don't need a program because everything happens by chemical reactions, than to claim that when we are dealing with processes in silicon we don't need a program because everything happens by electrical impulses.Eric Anderson
June 15, 2016
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WD400: ... these processes are the results of chemical reactions managed by gene products, the expression of which is managed by other genes.
Your view on biology doesn't make any sense to me. Zero, zip, zilch, nada. To be frank, I cannot even imagine what it is like to hold such a view and experience any explanatory power. To me, it boils down to "all sorts of things influence each other". Everyone knows this, but it does not constitute an explanation. It is as if you throw in terms like "regulate" "manage" "program" "control" for no reason whatsoever.
When regulators are in turn regulated, what do we mean by “regulate” — and where within the web of regulation can we single out a master controller capable of dictating cellular fates? And if we can’t, what are reputable scientists doing when they claim to have identified such a controller, or, rather, various such controllers? If they really mean something like “influencers,” then that’s fine. But influence is not about mechanism and control; the things at issue just don’t have controlling powers. What we see, rather, is a continual mutual adaptation, interaction, and coordination that occurs from above. [Talbott]
Origenes
June 15, 2016
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wd400: Why this insistence on a "gene-centric" view, other than orthodoxy? It is becoming increasingly clear that more and more ncRNA has function. Will you now call ncRNA a "gene"? Is Darwinism this subtle?PaV
June 15, 2016
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wd400:
Ans where in the corvette is this plan stored PaV?
The plan is stored in some building at the GM complex. The "plan" for organisms is stored in the mind of the Designer. But just as one can infer a plan from how the Corvette is constructed, so, too, can we infer a "plan" in the case of the organisms. In the case of a Corvette, it's easy to reconstruct the "plan." In the case of organisms, however, we don't know enough to be able to "reconstruct" it. Or, as Bill Gates is quoted as saying: "DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software ever created." The problem here is trying to explain quantum mechanics to a five-year-old. Maybe when it's older (us, as a civilization), it will understand the "plan." But even a five-year-old can figure out that a Corvette is not a rock. Unless, of course, he chooses to be obtuse.PaV
June 15, 2016
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Origenes, I've never claimed that a protein by itself contains the information for a compelx or a specific polymer. Only that these larger structures are themselves the result of other genes and their reaction. I read the bit about the centrosome -- Meyer claims that structure is no encoded in genes but doesn't support that claim. EA, Why don't you find out for yourself? You could spend a lifetime answering these questions in detail, but they are also all part of any intro to bio course or text. You'll see these processes are the results of chemical reactions managed by gene products, the expression of which is managed by other genes.wd400
June 15, 2016
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. . . but again these structures are the result of genetic programs in the mother.
What do you mean by genetic "programs"? Just having a bare DNA sequence that can be translated to a particular gene product isn't adequate. What happens to that gene product once it is produced? Where does it go in the cell? How is it utilized and integrated into larger structures? When has the cell produced enough and how is the production terminated? When is the gene product's use complete and the gene product broken down? All of those aspects, and many more, are needed as part of the program that produces a functional cell. So, again, where is that "genetic program" stored? Not in the raw sequence for the gene product. Just having a bunch of gene products* floating around is not adequate. So where is the program? ----- * And all this is ignoring the fact that even having a DNA sequence does not necessarily result in a particular gene product. Even getting functional gene products requires a program. It does not just all happen by dint of raw chemistry.Eric Anderson
June 15, 2016
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WD400: Meyer is saying that subunits of these structures don’t , in and of themselves, specify the larger structure. That’s true.
That's an important admission on your part. Does this spell the end of your gene-centric view?
WD400: But he doesn’t mention what does regualate this structure, which is other gene products.
Did you read the part about the centrosome? It is another cell structure not determined by genes alone that "influences" — not 'regulates' (!) — "the arrangement of the microtubule arrays and thus the precise structures they form and the functions they perform." What kind of specific examples do you have in mind? --- p.s. Meyer discusses several other sources of epigenetic information, such as membrane patterns, membrane targets, ion channels, electromagnetic fields and the sugar code. For each one of them he provides arguments as to why they are not produced by DNA.Origenes
June 15, 2016
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So, no specific examples then? Meyer is saying that subunits of these structures don't , in and of themselves, specify the larger structure. That's true. But he doesn't mention what does regualate this structure, which is other gene products.wd400
June 15, 2016
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WD400 @194,
CYTOSKELETAL ARRAYS Eukaryotic cells have internal skeletons to give them shape and stability. These “cytoskeletons” are made of several different kinds of filaments including those called the “microtubules.” The structure and location of the microtubules in the cytoskeleton influence the patterning and development of embryos. Microtubule “arrays” within embryonic cells help to distribute essential proteins used during development to specific locations in these cells. Once delivered, these proteins perform functions critical to development, but they can only do so if they are delivered to their correct locations with the help of preexisting, precisely structured microtubule or cytoskeletal arrays (see Fig. 14.3). Thus, the precise arrangement of microtubules in the cytoskeleton constitutes a form of critical structural information. These microtubule arrays are made of proteins called tubulin, which are gene products. Nevertheless, like bricks that can be used to assemble many different structures, the tubulin proteins in the cell’s microtubules are identical to one another. Thus, neither the tubulin subunits, nor the genes that produce them, account for the differences in the shape of the microtubule arrays that distinguish different kinds of embryos and developmental pathways. Instead, the structure of the microtubule array itself is, once again, determined by the location and arrangement of its subunits, not the properties of the subunits themselves. Jonathan Wells explains it this way: “What matters in [embryological] development is the shape and location of microtubule arrays, and the shape and location of a microtubule array is not determined by its units.”14 For this reason, as University of Colorado cell biologist Franklin Harold notes, it is impossible to predict the structure of the cytoskeleton of the cell from the characteristics of the protein constituents that form that structure. Another cell structure influences the arrangement of the microtubule arrays and thus the precise structures they form and the functions they perform. In an animal cell, that structure is called the centrosome (literally, “central body”), a microscopic organelle that sits next to the nucleus between cell divisions in an undividing cell. Emanating from the centrosome is the microtubule array that gives a cell its three-dimensional shape and provides internal tracks for the directed transport of organelles and essential molecules to and from the nucleus.16 During cell division the centrosome duplicates itself. The two centrosomes form the poles of the cell-division apparatus, and each daughter cell inherits one of the centrosomes; yet the centrosome contains no DNA.17 Though centrosomes are made of proteins—gene products—the centrosome structure is not determined by genes alone. [S.Meyer, ‘Darwin’s Doubt’, Ch.14]
Origenes
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a few notes undermining the central dogma In Embryo Development, Non-DNA Information Is at Least as Important as DNA - Jonathan Wells - May 2012 Excerpt: Evidence shows that non-DNA developmental information can be inherited in several ways. For example, it can be inherited through chromatin modifications, which affect gene expression without altering underlying DNA sequences. Another example is cytoplasmic inheritance, which involves cytoskeletal patterns and localization of intracellular molecules. Still another example is cortical inheritance, which involves membrane patterns. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/05/in_embryo_devel060031.html Peer-Reviewed Paper: Development Needs Ontogenetic Information that Cannot Arise from Neo-Darwinian Mechanisms - Casey Luskin - June 2, 2014 Excerpt: Jonathan Wells has published a new peer-reviewed scientific paper in the journal BIO-Complexity, "Membrane Patterns Carry Ontogenetic Information That Is Specified Independently of DNA." With over 400 citations to the technical literature, this well-researched and well-documented article shows that embryogenesis depends on crucial sources of information that exist outside of the DNA. This ontogenetic information guides the development of an organism, but because it is derived from sources outside of the DNA, it cannot be produced by mutations in DNA. Wells concludes that because the neo-Darwinian model of evolution claims that variation is produced by DNA mutations, neo-Darwinism cannot account for the origin of epigenetic and ontogenetic information that exists outside of DNA. (Read more here:) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/06/peer-reviewed_p_2086201.html Not Junk After All—Conclusion - August 29, 2013 Excerpt: Many scientists have pointed out that the relationship between the genome and the organism — the genotype-phenotype mapping — cannot be reduced to a genetic program encoded in DNA sequences. Atlan and Koppel wrote in 1990 that advances in artificial intelligence showed that cellular operations are not controlled by a linear sequence of instructions in DNA but by a “distributed multilayer network” [150]. According to Denton and his co-workers, protein folding appears to involve formal causes that transcend material mechanisms [151], and according to Sternberg this is even more evident at higher levels of the genotype-phenotype mapping [152] https://uncommondescent.com/junk-dna/open-mike-cornell-obi-conference-chapter-11-not-junk-after-all-conclusion/ “Live memory” of the cell, the other hereditary memory of living systems - 2005 Excerpt: To understand this notion of “live memory”, its role and interactions with DNA must be resituated; indeed, operational information belongs as much to the cell body and to its cytoplasmic regulatory protein components and other endogenous or exogenous ligands as it does to the DNA database. We will see in Section 2, using examples from recent experiments in biology, the principal roles of “live memory” in relation to the four aspects of cellular identity, memory of form, hereditary transmission and also working memory. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15888340 Ask an Embryologist: Genomic Mosaicism - Jonathan Wells - February 23, 2015 Excerpt: A few years ago, however, everything changed. With the development of more sophisticated techniques and the sampling of more tissues and cells, it became clear that genetic mosaicism is common. I now know as an embryologist,,,Tissues and cells, as they differentiate, modify their DNA to suit their needs. It's the organism controlling the DNA, not the DNA controlling the organism. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/02/ask_an_embryolo093851.html If DNA really rules (morphology), why did THIS happen? - April 2014 Excerpt: Researchers implanted human embryonic neuronal cells into a mouse embryo. Mouse and human neurons have distinct morphologies (shapes). Because the human neurons feature human DNA, they should be easy to identify. Which raises a question: Would the human neurons implanted in developing mouse brain have a mouse or a human morphology? Well, the answer is, the human neurons had a mouse morphology. They could be distinguished from the mouse ones only by their human genetic markers. If DNA really ruled, we would expect a human morphology. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/if-dna-really-rules-why-did-this-happen/ That DNA is not the be all, end all, explanation, when it comes to memory in the cell, is also clearly illustrated here: Extreme Genome Repair - 2009 Excerpt: If its naming had followed, rather than preceded, molecular analyses of its DNA, the extremophile bacterium Deinococcus radiodurans might have been called Lazarus. After shattering of its 3.2 Mb genome into 20–30 kb pieces by desiccation or a high dose of ionizing radiation, D. radiodurans miraculously reassembles its genome such that only 3 hr later fully reconstituted nonrearranged chromosomes are present, and the cells carry on, alive as normal.,,, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3319128/ In the lab, scientists coax E. coli to resist radiation damage - March 17, 2014 Excerpt: ,,, John R. Battista, a professor of biological sciences at Louisiana State University, showed that E. coli could evolve to resist ionizing radiation by exposing cultures of the bacterium to the highly radioactive isotope cobalt-60. "We blasted the cultures until 99 percent of the bacteria were dead. Then we'd grow up the survivors and blast them again. We did that twenty times," explains Cox. The result were E. coli capable of enduring as much as four orders of magnitude more ionizing radiation, making them similar to Deinococcus radiodurans, a desert-dwelling bacterium found in the 1950s to be remarkably resistant to radiation. That bacterium is capable of surviving more than one thousand times the radiation dose that would kill a human. http://www.news.wisc.edu/22641bornagain77
June 15, 2016
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Don't suppose Meyer gives any examples? The "three-dimensional structure or spatial architecture" of cells in determined in part by cytoskeletal proteins. But these are gene products themselves, and their growth and structure is regulated by others. A new embryo inherits cytosol from the egg, but again these structures are the result of genetic programs in the mother.wd400
June 15, 2016
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Excellent quotes Origenes: They are going right below this video: Functional Proteins and Information for Body Plans – Stephen Meyer - video https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/vb.100000088262100/1140536289292636/?type=2&theaterbornagain77
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WD400,
Since the 1980s, developmental and cell biologists such as Brian Goodwin, Wallace Arthur, Stuart Newman, Fred Nijhout, and Harold Franklin have discovered or analyzed many sources of epigenetic information. Even molecular biologists such as Sidney Brenner, who pioneered the idea that genetic programs direct animal development, now insist that the information needed to code for complex biological systems vastly outstrips the information in DNA. DNA helps direct protein synthesis. Parts of the DNA molecule also help to regulate the timing and expression of genetic information and the synthesis of various proteins within cells. Yet once proteins are synthesized, they must be arranged into higher-level systems of proteins and structures. Genes and proteins are made from simple building blocks—nucleotide bases and amino acids, respectively—arranged in specific ways. Similarly, distinctive cell types are made of, among other things, systems of specialized proteins. Organs are made of specialized arrangements of cell types and tissues. And body plans comprise specific arrangements of specialized organs. Yet the properties of individual proteins do not fully determine the organization of these higher-level structures and patterns. Other sources of information must help arrange individual proteins into systems of proteins, systems of proteins into distinctive cell types, cell types into tissues, and different tissues into organs. And different organs and tissues must be arranged to form body plans. [S.Meyer, ‘Darwin’s Doubt’, Ch.14]
The hierarchical layering or arrangement of different sources of information.
WD400: If it is not clear enough, there is no over-arching “plan” in the genome. There are genes, that have regulatory elements, which produce gene produces respond to environments and influence other genes and so on and so on.
This neo-darwinistic concept boils down to circular reasoning and therefor fails to make sense. Regulatory capacity is assigned to a level which is itself in need of regulation. Again Stephen Meyer:
Note that the information necessary to build the lower-level electronic components does not determine the arrangement of those components on the circuit board or the arrangement of the circuit board and the other parts necessary to make a computer. That requires additional informational inputs. Two analogies may help clarify the point. At a construction site, builders will make use of many materials: lumber, wires, nails, drywall, piping, and windows. Yet building materials do not determine the floor plan of the house or the arrangement of houses in a neighborhood. Similarly, electronic circuits are composed of many components, such as resistors, capacitors, and transistors. But such lower-level components do not determine their own arrangement in an integrated circuit (see Fig. 14.2). In a similar way, DNA does not by itself direct how individual proteins are assembled into these larger systems or structures—cell types, tissues, organs, and body plans—during animal development. Instead, the three-dimensional structure or spatial architecture of embryonic cells plays important roles in determining body-plan formation during embryogenesis. Developmental biologists have identified several sources of epigenetic information in these cells. [S.Meyer, ‘Darwin’s Doubt’, Ch.14]
Origenes
June 15, 2016
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Point taken, bornagain77. Discovery and progress in science is not achieved by self-congratulatory confirmation of what seems to agree with a theory, but rather the observing and investigating of precisely what doesn't agree. With Darwinism, such observing and subsequent investigating is not tolerated. -QQuerius
June 14, 2016
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Ans where in the corvette is this plan stored PaV?
The plan is stored in the blueprints, the schematics, the engineering diagrams. Implemented with sensors, feedbacks, production machines, assembly processes, manufacturing facilities. Those things are required for any complex functionally-integrated system. And in the case of a self-reproducing organism they must, by neo-Darwinian logic, be contained in the DNA. So where are they? We cannot say, we must not say, if we are to have any intellectual integrity or if we are to propose a theory that has a chance of mapping to the real world -- we must not say that such things don't matter, that the rest of the stuff we don't yet understand (constituting the majority of the storage system) is just junk, that things simply come together by dint of some chemical interaction in the environment. A moment's reflection about what is required to actually build such a system in the real world should be sufficient to convince any objective observer that much, much more is required than a few sequences for a few proteins contained in a small portion of one part of the organism is sufficient to explain it all.Eric Anderson
June 14, 2016
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