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Common descent: Ann Gauger’s response to Vincent Torley

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Here:

Well, I must say I didn’t expect to be honored by a 7500 word broadside by philosopher Dr. Vincent Torley, assisted by Dr. Josh Swamidass, Assistant Professor at Washington University. I guess they must have a lot of spare time. The reason for the post at Uncommon Descent? Both hold common descent to be absolutely, incontrovertibly, obviously true, and they apparently wish I would fall into line and stop embarrassing them by doubting common descent. They wish I would give up my “peculiar kind of intellectual obstinacy.”

The argument is in the end all about common descent. (There are a few accusations of poor reasoning, obscuring the issue, and even a little bad faith along the way.) Look, intelligent design is not wedded to common descent. Neither is it wedded to a denial of common descent. Intelligent design states that there is evidence of design in the universe. I think we are in agreement on this point. In terms of biology, how the designer instantiated that design is still subject to debate, based on the strength of the evidence for each position.

As a biologist, I see evidence on both sides of the debate. The evidence is equivocal — hence the fact that ID advocates take different positions on the subject. Yet common descent — the idea that organisms descend from one or a few common ancestors — is treated like a sacred cow by many scientists, and even, it appears, by some philosophers. Indignation arises that anyone would doubt it, would even have questions. Scientists take common descent as axiomatic, and accept evidence that is itself interpreted through a lens of common descent as proof of common descent. As a consequence, any evidence against common descent meets opposition and is explained away.More.

Background: Vincent Torley: Evidence for common descent: here

Comments
Querius, although I like your point very much, please don't sully Newtonian mechanics with Darwinian evolution. Although Newtonian mechanics was only an approximation, it was at least good enough to get us to the moon. There is nothing comparable to that stunning success for man in the pseudo-science of Darwinian evolution.
“Truth be told, evolution hasn’t yielded many practical or commercial benefits. Yes, bacteria evolve drug resistance, and yes, we must take countermeasures, but beyond that there is not much to say. Evolution cannot help us predict what new vaccines to manufacture because microbes evolve unpredictably. But hasn’t evolution helped guide animal and plant breeding? Not very much. Most improvement in crop plants and animals occurred long before we knew anything about evolution, and came about by people following the genetic principle of ‘like begets like’. Even now, as its practitioners admit, the field of quantitative genetics has been of little value in helping improve varieties. Future advances will almost certainly come from transgenics, which is not based on evolution at all.” (Jerry Coyne, “Selling Darwin: Does it matter whether evolution has any commercial applications?,” reviewing The Evolving World: Evolution in Everyday Life by David P. Mindell, in Nature, 442:983-984 (August 31, 2006).) "In fact, over the last 100 years, almost all of biology has proceeded independent of evolution, except evolutionary biology itself. Molecular biology, biochemistry, and physiology, have not taken evolution into account at all." Marc Kirschner, Boston Globe, Oct. 23, 2005 "While the great majority of biologists would probably agree with Theodosius Dobzhansky’s dictum that “Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution”, most can conduct their work quite happily without particular reference to evolutionary ideas. Evolution would appear to be the indispensable unifying idea and, at the same time, a highly superflous one.” A.S. Wilkins, editor of the journal BioEssays, Introduction to "Evolutionary Processes" - (2000). NASA website Excerpt: The motion of a rocket from the surface of the Earth to a landing on the Moon can be explained and described by physical principals discovered over 300 years ago by Sir Isaac Newton. Newton worked in many areas of mathematics and physics. He developed the theories of gravitation in 1666, when he was only 23 years old. Some twenty years later, in 1686, he presented his three laws of motion in the "Principia Mathematica Philosophiae Naturalis." The laws are shown above, and the application of these laws to rockets is given on separate slides. https://spaceflightsystems.grc.nasa.gov/education/rocket/newton.html This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.,,, This Being governs all things, not as the soul of the world, but as Lord over all; and on account of his dominion he is wont to be called Lord God pantokrator, or Universal Ruler;,,, The Supreme God is a Being eternal, infinite, absolutely perfect;,,, from his true dominion it follows that the true God is a living, intelligent, and powerful Being; and, from his other perfections, that he is supreme, or most perfect. He is eternal and infinite, omnipotent and omniscient; that is, his duration reaches from eternity to eternity; his presence from infinity to infinity; he governs all things, and knows all things that are or can be done. He is not eternity or infinity, but eternal and infinite; he is not duration or space, but he endures and is present. He endures for ever, and is every where present: Sir Isaac Newton - Quoted from what many consider the greatest science masterpiece of all time, his book "Principia" NEWTON'S REJECTION OF THE "NEWTONIAN WORLD VIEW": THE ROLE OF DIVINE WILL IN NEWTON'S NATURAL PHILOSOPHY Abstract: The significance of Isaac Newton for the history of Christianity and science is undeniable: his professional work culminated the Scientific Revolution that saw the birth of modern science, while his private writings evidence a lifelong interest in the relationship between God and the world. Yet the typical picture of Newton as a paragon of Enlightenment deism, endorsing the idea of a remote divine clockmaker and the separation of science from religion, is badly mistaken. In fact Newton rejected both the clockwork metaphor itself and the cold mechanical universe upon which it is based. His conception of the world reflects rather a deep commitment to the constant activity of the divine will, unencumbered by the "rational" restrictions that Descartes and Leibniz placed on God, the very sorts of restrictions that later appealed to the deists of the 18th century. http://home.messiah.edu/~tdavis/newton.htm
bornagain77
June 14, 2016
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Dr JDD,
I think this is why many of us here feel like we are banging our heads against the wall. HeKs, PaV, Querius, others. We sound like broken records – pseudogenes, feathers, simulating evolution on bacteria, software code analogies. But why do we sound like broken records? Because no one is taking these discussions and arguments presented to them seriously. They just skirt the issue and defer to the mainstream position that “it [CD] is all proven anyway”.
Yes, exactly. The debate seems to be so much fun that science gets trampled in the process. - Why create an experiment using proportionally increased levels of ionizing radiation on rapidly reproducing populations of bacteria, when one can huff and puff over circumstantial interpretations like cranky old philosophers. - Why think of new possibilities and perspectives, when one can enslave data fragments to nail into arguments to prop up a rotten old 19th century speculation. If physics took the same route, we'd be arguing vehemently about Newtonian mechanics, ignoring all outlying evidence. Not only is it not science, it's . . . boring. -QQuerius
June 14, 2016
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Python, "Please tell me what my “position” is on ORFans, because I don’t recall putting my “position” out there." Sorry, besides a troll, I thought you were a Darwinist. My mistake, you are only a troll.bornagain77
June 14, 2016
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@Mung, #182:
So what is the “broader definition” of synteny that ThickPython appeals to?
It's the second definition in that first paragraph on Wikipedia: Today, however, biologists usually refer to synteny as the conservation of blocks of order within two sets of chromosomes that are being compared with each other. while yours refers to the first definition: synteny describes the physical co-localization of genetic loci on the same chromosome within an individual or species My definition refers to just "two sets of chromosomes that are being compared with each other". Your definition applies to only one individual or species; your definition is a vague measure of recombination during meiosis. You'll notice that your definition uses the phrase "same chromosome" while mine does not. This is why you're getting into this circular argument. I feel dirty for even having to explain this.ThickPython
June 14, 2016
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@Bornagain77, #177:
for instance, here is a repost of the video you did not watch that goes through a paper that refuted your position on ORFans, which you will not ever honestly admit
Please tell me what my "position" is on ORFans, because I don't recall putting my "position" out there. What I do recall, is responding to a claim you have made - via Jeff Tomkins - that there are "634 human-specific genes" that have "no evolutionary history" and are "completely different between humans and chimpanzees". My results show that these genes have corresponding sequence in the chimpanzee genome with at least 95% similarity. So you can either engage with that, or call me a troll. Entirely up to you. Maybe you'd like to suggest that 95% still qualifies as "completely different"? Maybe you'd like to suggest that my result is just plain wrong, and Tomkins is right? Maybe you can show some integrity and withdraw your endorsement of the article? But no, you want me to watch an hour-long video that supposedly refutes a position I haven't stated. And let's say I went ahead and watched it. Then what? You'll ignore my response again? For someone that has posted roughly half of the content in this thread, you have surprisingly little substance behind it. Consider yourself on "Ignore" until you have the courage to address direct responses to your claims.ThickPython
June 14, 2016
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I hope this is some sort of elaborate troll, but in case it's not: genes can only be said to have an order reletive to each other if they are on the same chromosome. In what sense could a gene on the X be between one on chromosomes 2 and 5? Now read what you said in 168...wd400
June 14, 2016
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It seems to be a matter of substantial importance that the genes under question can be shown to be on the same chromosome. Why is that a matter of such importance?Mung
June 14, 2016
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wd400:
It’s not possibly for genes to be in synteny (order sense) and not on the same chromosome. So if you establish they are are in synteny you establish they are on the same chromosome.
So what is the "broader definition" of synteny that ThickPython appeals to?
It’s not possibly for genes to be in synteny (order sense) and not on the same chromosome. So if you establish they are are in synteny you establish they are on the same chromosome.
So if you establish that they are on the same chromosome you establish that they are on the same chromosome, because it’s not possible for genes to be in synteny (order sense) and not on the same chromosome. Which begs the question.
It’s not possibly for genes to be in synteny (order sense) and not on the same chromosome.
Why is it not possible? Because by definition... Which begs the question. How do you know the genes are on the same chromosome?Mung
June 14, 2016
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mung: "Sadly, your “argument” depends on the semantics. So, “semantically speaking,” I am correct." Touche http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/tmnt/images/7/79/Touche.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140423114652bornagain77
June 14, 2016
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Mung, What do you think "beg the question" means? What do you think synteny means? It's not possibly for genes to be in synteny (order sense) and not on the same chromosome. So if you establish they are are in synteny you establish they are on the same chromosome.wd400
June 14, 2016
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Darwin’s (Failed Predictions) – Similar species share similar genes – Cornelius Hunter PhD. Excerpt: As much as a third of the genes in a given species may be unique, and even different variants within the same species have large numbers of genes unique to each variant. Different variants of the Escherichia coli bacteria, for instance, each have hundreds of unique genes. (Daubin and Ochman) Significant genetic differences were also found between different fruit fly species. Thousands of genes showed up missing in many of the species, and some genes showed up in only a single species. (Levine et. al.) As one science writer put it, “an astonishing 12 per cent of recently evolved genes in fruit flies appear to have evolved from scratch.” (Le Page) These novel genes must have evolved over a few million years, a time period previously considered to allow only for minor genetic changes. (Begun et. al.; Chen et. al., 2007) Initially some evolutionists thought these surprising results would be resolved when more genomes were analyzed. They predicted that similar copies of these genes would be found in other species. But instead each new genome has revealed yet more novel genes. (Curtis et. al.; Marsden et. al.; Pilcher) Next evolutionists thought that these rapidly-evolving unique genes must not code for functional or important proteins. But again, many of the unique proteins were in fact found to play essential roles. (Chen, Zhang and Long 1010; Daubin and Ochman; Pilcher) As one researcher explained, “This goes against the textbooks, which say the genes encoding essential functions were created in ancient times.” (Pilcher) https://sites.google.com/site/darwinspredictions/similar-species-share-similar-genes
bornagain77
June 14, 2016
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ThickPython:
I don’t care for an argument about semantics – my comment was clear enough in the first place.
Sadly, your "argument" depends on the semantics. So, "semantically speaking," I am correct.Mung
June 14, 2016
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ThickPython, rest assured, you are a atheistic troll who is not dealing with the evidence forthrightly. It is NOT an accusation but a fact. I certainly stand by my posts and, as you say, the record is there for all to see. for instance, here is a repost of the video you did not watch that goes through a paper that refuted your position on ORFans, which you will not ever honestly admit Python, in case you ever decide to be honest towards the evidence instead of playing ‘gotcha’ games (which would be a miracle in its own right), and for the unbiased readers who are interested in a closer look, Paul Giem has a video on one of the ORFan papers that falsified the Darwinian position
New Genes Are Essential 6-13-2015 by Paul Giem – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qgGPV1AO1E
Darwinian explanations for essential ORFan genes are un-parsimonious to put it mildly
Can new genes arise from junk DNA? – August 24, 2015 Excerpt: Scientists also want to understand how de novo genes get incorporated into the complex network of reactions that drive the cell, a particularly puzzling problem. It’s as if a bicycle spontaneously grew a new part and rapidly incorporated it into its machinery, even though the bike was working fine without it. “The question is fascinating but completely unknown,” Begun said. BA77: Moreover, the essential genes were somehow incorporated into the ‘bicycle’ while the bicycle was being peddled, i.e. while the cell was busy being alive. “How does novel gene become functional? How does it get incorporated into actual cellular processes?” McLysaght said. “To me, that’s the most important question at the moment.” https://uncommondescent.com/junk-dna/can-new-genes-arise-from-junk-dna/#comment-577484
This entire episode with ORFans has highlighted the unfalsifiable nature of Darwinian Theory as a science. No matter how contrary a finding is to Darwinian explanations, that finding is simply never really allowed a real chance to falsify Darwinian theory. The contrary finding is simply ‘explained away’ with another ‘epicycle’ (Lakatos & Hunter). As Dr. Hunter would say, when it comes to Darwinian evolution, ‘religion drives science and it matters’!bornagain77
June 14, 2016
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wd400:
If they can be ordered they have to be one the same chromosome, no?
I'm asking if you have evidence to support this assertion that does not beg the question. Stuff can be ordered therefore they are on the same chromosome. They are on the same chromosome because they can be ordered. If they could not be ordered, they would not be on the same chromosome. Therefore, synteny. Make an argument for synteny that does not beg the question. That's all I'm asking for.Mung
June 14, 2016
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@Bornagain77, #135:
Python, in case you ever decide to be honest towards the evidence instead of playing ‘gotcha’ games ...
In the Opossum thread: 1. At post #24, you posted 8 links, one of which was the shark-zebrafish-human paper. 2. In post #28, I addressed this shark-zebrafish-human paper, explaining why this does not contradict common descent; it's a statistical coin flip. 3. In posts #38, #39 and #42 you do not address my explanation. 4. In post #125, you accuse me of running away. You posted 8 links, I addressed one of them. But instead of responding to my rebuttal, you just say "well, what about this one?" Also in the Opossum thread: 1. At post #74, you posted a video of yours that made mention of some of Jeff Tomkins work. 2. I responded at post #112, pointing you towards two of my recent posts addressing Tomkins' work. 3. In post #113, you feigned insult, and did not address the content of my posts. In this current thread: 1. In posts #64 and #66 you post several links regarding proteins, one of which was Jeff Tomkins' article about orphan genes. 2. In post #68, Vincent points out a post of mine that I had coincidentally finished the night before addressing that very article. 3. In post #69 you seem to imply that these 634 human-specific genes are protein-coding genes while the DNA matches in the chimpanzee genome are not protein-coding ("you do know those sequences are not protein coding don’t you?") 4. In post #119 I ask whether that is indeed your belief (which you have yet to confirm, by the way) and point out that only ONE of these genes is confirmed as protein-coding (while five others are possible). 5. In post #121 you emphasise a paragraph saying that 20 new human proteins were detected. 6. In post #123 I explain why this is incorrect, and ask you to confirm the number of protein-coding genes that are human-specific. 7. In post #125 you refuse to answer a simple question, and instead accuse me of being a troll. You're not fooling anyone - the record is there for everyone to see.ThickPython
June 14, 2016
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You tell em wd400, however it happens, evolution did it! Although, evolution hasn't ever been seen creating anything, it is a undeniable fact that it created all things. (snark off) :)
"Evolution by natural selection, for instance, which Charles Darwin originally conceived as a great theory, has lately come to function more as an antitheory, called upon to cover up embarrassing experimental shortcomings and legitimize findings that are at best questionable and at worst not even wrong. Your protein defies the laws of mass action? Evolution did it! Your complicated mess of chemical reactions turns into a chicken? Evolution! The human brain works on logical principles no computer can emulate? Evolution is the cause!" - Robert B. Laughlin, Nobel laureate – Physics - A Different Universe: Reinventing Physics from the Bottom Down (New York: Basic Books, 2005), 168-69)
bornagain77
June 14, 2016
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You can call it a plan if you like, the point in making if that all comes about from gene products interacting with the environment (including other gene products). To the extent there is a plan, it is in these genes, their regulatory elements and the environment.wd400
June 14, 2016
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WD400
WD400: If it is not clear enough, there is no over-arching “plan” in the genome. There are genes, that have regulatory elements, which produce gene produces respond to environments and influence other genes and so on and so on.
What do you consider the result of the fusion of a sperm and egg? No plan? We can very well predict the result and yes the sonic pathway is part of this and also the WNT beta catenin pathway. The stem cells get converted to differentiated cells and form all the parts of the human body with great precision from the genetic information(DNA sequences) passed along by the mother and father. Is DNA coded information? Hard to imagine how this process works so repeatably if it isn't.bill cole
June 14, 2016
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@Mung, #168:
I can appreciate the gratuitous insult, but before slinging it perhaps you should have looked up the meaning of synteny. How do you know they are on the same chromosome? Try to not beg the question.
The term "synteny" isn't precisely defined - take the very first paragraph from Wikipedia:
In classical genetics, synteny describes the physical co-localization of genetic loci on the same chromosome within an individual or species. Today, however, biologists usually refer to synteny as the conservation of blocks of order within two sets of chromosomes that are being compared with each other. This concept can also be referred to as shared synteny.
You're taking the narrow definition, and I'm taking the broader definition. I don't care for an argument about semantics - my comment was clear enough in the first place.ThickPython
June 14, 2016
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Mung, If they can be ordered they have to be one the same chromosome, no?wd400
June 14, 2016
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Yep, it is just a kind of magic. No need to specify structures or precise interactions. Just all kind of happens by interactions with the environment.
I am certainly saying that biolgy is different, and that someone who wants to challange mainstream biological science might want to start by undertandign it. But this quote doesn't reflect what I've said here at all -- I've given several examples of well-understood systems that readers could follow up on. I encourage you to do so too.wd400
June 14, 2016
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ThickPython:
If you’d bothered to look at the results, you’d see that there are six alignments and they are syntenic in the sense that they maintain their order between the two species.
I can appreciate the gratuitous insult, but before slinging it perhaps you should have looked up the meaning of synteny. How do you know they are on the same chromosome? Try to not beg the question.Mung
June 14, 2016
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Ans where in the corvette is this plan stored PaV?wd400
June 14, 2016
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Sure I guess. It’s not a very useful way of thinking about biology though. The “encoding” is in a set of proteins and regulatory elements that that react with the environment to produce chemical reactions. Talking about how many bytes of storage such a process needs doesn’t seem very important.
Ah, yes, the old refuge argument of the materialist creation myth when someone points out that the story doesn't seem to make sense: "Biology is different. You can't think about biology in terms of computers and storage and machines. Biology isn't intuitive." Yep, it is just a kind of magic. No need to specify structures or precise interactions. Just all kind of happens by interactions with the environment. Sheesh. Can we please get more people to start thinking about building an organism for what it really is -- an engineering problem. Let's start considering organisms from a standpoint of integrated systems engineering, instead of handwaving stories about stuff just happening, unsupported claims about mistakes turning organism A into organism B, requests to set aside our intuition and our understanding of what is required to build a digitally-coded, functionally-integrated system and just believe . . .Eric Anderson
June 14, 2016
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wd400: I saw this (certainly out of context for me) and couldn't resist: You say:
If it is not clear enough, there is no over-arching “plan” in the genome. There are genes, that have regulatory elements, which produce gene produces respond to environments and influence other genes and so on and so on. To the extend that a body plan is “stored” in DNA, it’s stored in these genes and their regulator elements.
To which I respond: In a corvette, no one sees a "plan." All you see are various metallic parts linked together, and which work in a particular sequence. One also sees, related to these metal parts, wires of all sorts. Now, if you follow these wires, you actually see how they're connected to other parts of the car that regulate the flow of electricity within the wires. As long as it has enough energy, it can move you from place A to place B. I hope you see what I'm saying.PaV
June 14, 2016
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BA77:
To clarify, ‘special creation’ to me does not mean completely disjointed but means God introducing new information ‘top down’ into creation, which is what I believe He did in the Cambrian and even with man.
I agree. Further, and what I've been alluding to along the way, I believe that God has had to change the "matter," that is, the "cell." But this change to the cell is not made whole hog, something along the lines of what happens to DNA. So, "I see you; and raise you one." :)PaV
June 14, 2016
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If you say so.wd400
June 14, 2016
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Origenes: Don't you get it? It's a black box. You just need to have more faith and not sweat all those pesky details.Phinehas
June 14, 2016
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WD400: If it is not clear enough, there is no over-arching “plan” in the genome. There are genes, that have regulatory elements, which produce gene produces respond to environments and influence other genes and so on and so on.
What you say simply doesn't make sense. You suggest something like a cascade of chemical reactions without system-wide coordination. In biology things are too contingent and unpredictable to lend any plausibility to such views.Origenes
June 14, 2016
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I'm probably not going to explain all of developmental biology in the comment box at UD. If it is not clear enough, there is no over-arching "plan" in the genome. There are genes, that have regulatory elements, which produce gene produces respond to environments and influence other genes and so on and so on. To the extend that a body plan is "stored" in DNA, it's stored in these genes and their regulator elements. If you want a small example of how this works then read about about something like Sonic Hedgehog in neural (or limb) development.wd400
June 14, 2016
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