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Common descent: Ann Gauger’s response to Vincent Torley

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Well, I must say I didn’t expect to be honored by a 7500 word broadside by philosopher Dr. Vincent Torley, assisted by Dr. Josh Swamidass, Assistant Professor at Washington University. I guess they must have a lot of spare time. The reason for the post at Uncommon Descent? Both hold common descent to be absolutely, incontrovertibly, obviously true, and they apparently wish I would fall into line and stop embarrassing them by doubting common descent. They wish I would give up my “peculiar kind of intellectual obstinacy.”

The argument is in the end all about common descent. (There are a few accusations of poor reasoning, obscuring the issue, and even a little bad faith along the way.) Look, intelligent design is not wedded to common descent. Neither is it wedded to a denial of common descent. Intelligent design states that there is evidence of design in the universe. I think we are in agreement on this point. In terms of biology, how the designer instantiated that design is still subject to debate, based on the strength of the evidence for each position.

As a biologist, I see evidence on both sides of the debate. The evidence is equivocal — hence the fact that ID advocates take different positions on the subject. Yet common descent — the idea that organisms descend from one or a few common ancestors — is treated like a sacred cow by many scientists, and even, it appears, by some philosophers. Indignation arises that anyone would doubt it, would even have questions. Scientists take common descent as axiomatic, and accept evidence that is itself interpreted through a lens of common descent as proof of common descent. As a consequence, any evidence against common descent meets opposition and is explained away.More.

Background: Vincent Torley: Evidence for common descent: here

Comments
@86 C. elegans lays eggs with yolk using their own version of VTG1. Cool how surprising things like this happen in biology. It is not intuitive. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC366982/ What are we to inferrer from this? Take gene predictors with a grain of salt. Learn biology instead of arguing it.Prof. S. Joshua Swamidass
June 13, 2016
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Dr Torley Dr Gingerich admitted that he personally added the fluke and flippers to Rodocetus... It is on record!Andre
June 13, 2016
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VJT all I also think the existence of the intron that has a binding site inside the fused chromosome 2 telomere that python agreed is real, is very problematic. I would like to see this debated aggressively. Does anyone know Dr Tompkins? Would he join the debate?http://www.icr.org/i/articles/af/research_debunks_chrom_fusion_pic.jpgbill cole
June 13, 2016
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vjt: This is from your citation:
However, Foth (2011) showed that some of these purported stages (stages 2 and 5 in particular) are likely simply artifacts of preservation caused by the way fossil feathers are crushed and the feather remains or imprints are preserved. Foth re-interpreted stage 2 feathers as crushed or misidentified feathers of at least stage 3, and stage 5 feathers as crushed stage 6 feathers.[82]
From a blog:
As concluded by Foth (2012, pg.100), “examples of simple and aberrant feather morphologies can be taphonomic in origin, and thus not represent intermediate steps of feather evolution (see Benton et al. 2008). The overlapping nature of feather plumage, the two-dimensional state in which the feathers are usually preserved and other taphonomic conditions make identification of feather type difficult, and misinterpretations cannot be ruled out. To avoid or at least minimize such mistakes, it is necessary to expand current knowledge of the diverse morphology of recent bird feathers, and further investigate the changes which integumental structures undergo during decomposition and the fossilization process in similar experimental approaches. Fossil feathers and plumage should additionally be investigated under ultraviolet (UV) light, because of the higher contrast that can be achieved in photographic documentation [but see Hone et al. (2010) for application and limitations of this method]. The discovery of feathered non-avian dinosaur fossils, the clarification of their phylogeny and the identification of different feather types in the fossil record are essential to our understanding of feather evolution in particular, and bird evolution in general.”
As I said, this is still a controverted area. Let's not jump to conclusions. If you look at the putative "stages," stage 1 is just a filament of sorts and hardly represents anything like a feather. According to Foth, then, we jump from "nothing" to Stage 7. This supports my thesis. Now, over here, we show crocodiles on one side of a tree stemming from "archeosaur", and "feathered" dinosaurs on the other. Where is the "intermediate"? Will you cede my point? Here's a paper that is titled: A gigantic feathered dinosaur from the Lower Cretaceous of China. Well, take a look at Figures 1 and 2 and tell me if you would conclude it was "feathered." Dramatic claims require dramatic evidence, as they say in physics.PaV
June 13, 2016
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VJT
You appear to believe that 80% of human proteins are unique. The paper you cite doesn’t say that 80% of our proteins are unique; it says that 80% of our proteins are different in humans and chimpanzees.
That is right but 80% with different sequences is an extraordinary difference especially if you consider splicing and DNA timing differences. www.sciencemag.org Science 21 December 2012: Vol. 338 no. 6114 pp. 1587-1593 DOI: 10.1126/science.1230612 RESEARCH ARTICLE All Science Journals ADVANCED Enter Search Term ???????My Science About the Journal Prev | Table of Contents | Next Read Full Text to Comment (0) ?????????????????????????The Evolutionary Landscape of Alternative Splicing in Vertebrate Species Nuno L. Barbosa-Morais1,2, Manuel Irimia1,*, Qun Pan1,*, Hui Y. Xiong3,*, Serge Gueroussov1,4,*, Leo J. Lee3, Valentina Slobodeniuc1, Claudia Kutter5, Stephen Watt5, Recep Çolak1,6, TaeHyung Kim1,7, Christine M. Misquitta-Ali1, Michael D. Wilson4,5,7, Philip M. Kim1,4,6, Duncan T. Odom5,8, Brendan J. Frey1,3, Benjamin J. Blencowe1,4,† Author Affiliations ?†To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail: b.blencowe@utoronto.ca ?* These authors contributed equally to this work. ?????????????????????????????????????????????????+ ?????? ABSTRACT How species with similar repertoires of protein-coding genes differ so markedly at the phenotypic level is poorly understood. By comparing organ transcriptomes from vertebrate species spanning ~350 million years of evolution, we observed significant differences in alternative splicing complexity between vertebrate lineages, with the highest complexity in primates. Within 6 million years, the splicing profiles of physiologically equivalent organs diverged such that they are more strongly related to the identity of a species than they are to organ type. Most vertebrate species- specific splicing patterns are cis-directed. However, a subset of pronounced splicing changes are predicted to remodel protein interactions involving trans-acting regulators. These events likely further contributed to the diversification of splicing and other transcriptomic changes that underlie phenotypic differences among vertebrate species.bill cole
June 13, 2016
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"By the way, I believe about 10% of our DNA is functional – maybe 20% at a stretch. I used to think otherwise, but Moran’s posts on junk DNA have convinced me otherwise. He always manages to trounce his critics." So you really believe that your DNA is 80% junk? And you believe this because of Moran of all people? Simply amazing! IMHO, Anyone who thinks their genome is 80 percent junk is delusional! For example
Information Storage in DNA by Wyss Institute - video https://vimeo.com/47615970 Quote from preceding video: "The theoretical (information) density of DNA is you could store the total world information, which is 1.8 zetabytes, at least in 2011, in about 4 grams of DNA." Sriram Kosuri PhD. - Wyss Institute Demonstrating, Once Again, the Fantastic Information-Storage Capacity of DNA - January 29, 2013 Excerpt: researchers led by molecular biologists Nick Goldman and Ewan Birney of the European Bioinformatics Institute (EBI) in Hinxton, UK, report online today in Nature that they've improved the DNA encoding scheme to raise that storage density to a staggering 2.2 petabytes per gram, three times the previous effort.,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/01/how_do_you_peta068641.html Classical and Quantum Information in DNA – Elisabeth Rieper – video (Longitudinal Quantum Information along the entire length of DNA discussed at the 19:30 minute mark; at 24:00 minute mark Dr Rieper remarks that practically the whole DNA molecule can be viewed as quantum information with classical information embedded within it) https://youtu.be/2nqHOnVTxJE?t=1176 Scientists achieve critical steps to building first practical quantum computer - April 30, 2015 Excerpt: If a quantum computer could be built with just 50 quantum bits (qubits), no combination of today's TOP500 supercomputers could successfully outperform it (for certain tasks). http://phys.org/news/2015-04-scientists-critical-quantum.html Quantum Dots Spotlight DNA-Repair Proteins in Motion - March 2010 Excerpt: "How this system works is an important unanswered question in this field," he said. "It has to be able to identify very small mistakes in a 3-dimensional morass of gene strands. It's akin to spotting potholes on every street all over the country and getting them fixed before the next rush hour." Dr. Bennett Van Houten - of note: A bacterium has about 40 team members on its pothole crew. That allows its entire genome to be scanned for errors in 20 minutes, the typical doubling time.,, These smart machines can apparently also interact with other damage control teams if they cannot fix the problem on the spot. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100311123522.htm
So the entire DNA molecule utilizing quantum computation is 80% junk in your book Torley?bornagain77
June 13, 2016
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Hi PaV, I have no quarrel with ID proponents believing in special creation. But if they are going to believe it, then all I ask is that they don't base their belief on faulty arguments, that's all. If someone wants to develop an alternative model to common descent, then they are welcome to do so - and who knows? They may be right. But they're going to have to adduce a lot of evidence before they can overthrow the common descent model, in a scientific forum.vjtorley
June 13, 2016
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vjt:
By the way, I believe about 10% of our DNA is functional – maybe 20% at a stretch. I used to think otherwise, but Moran’s posts on junk DNA have convinced me otherwise. He always manages to trounce his critics.
This is the problem. You shouldn't listen to Larry Moran. He'll be proven to be immensely wrong. In fact, the ENCODE project has already done that. It's the beginning of the end for Larry and his fellow sojourners.PaV
June 13, 2016
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Hi bill cole, You appear to believe that 80% of human proteins are unique. The paper you cite doesn't say that 80% of our proteins are unique; it says that 80% of our proteins are different in humans and chimpanzees. http://www.evolutionarymodel.com/chimphumanproteins.htmvjtorley
June 13, 2016
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bill cole, I hope you are right, but I don't see Torley being reasonable thus far, so that hope is faint.bornagain77
June 13, 2016
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vjt: What you're not aware of is that the "establishment" is behind these "eight stages." This work is highly contested to this day. But what is the point you're trying to make? Are you trying to say to those who believe in "special creation" that they're making the rest of ID look bad? Do you want them to change their "scientific views"? All of that is a side-issue. There is enough evidence for them to let loose of this view. Unfortunately, it usually comes when they go to college, and there the youth lose their faith, which is regrettable. But, here at ID, I don't see how that's an issue at all.PaV
June 13, 2016
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bornagain77, My original challenge was: "Let’s consider your claim that birds and humans use essentially the same genes to speak. If you can find these genes in humans and birds but not in chimps and gorillas, then I’ll agree that would constitute a sever difficulty for the hypothesis of common descent. Name your genes, please." I've located the original paper: http://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/346/6215/1256846.full.pdf As far as I can tell, it says that 50 or so genes are expressed in humans and in birds that vocalize, but it does not say that these genes are absent in non-human primates. They simply aren't expressed, that's all. By the way, I believe about 10% of our DNA is functional - maybe 20% at a stretch. I used to think otherwise, but Moran's posts on junk DNA have convinced me otherwise. He always manages to trounce his critics.vjtorley
June 13, 2016
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Torley, Gingerich himself admitted on the video that he was mistaken on his supposed transitional whale fossil and yet the fraudulent misrepresentations (plaster reconstructions) are still in museums. I am NOT mistaken!bornagain77
June 13, 2016
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Here's a NCBI "aceview" on "worm" genes.
WormBase ID: WBGene00006925 vit-1 is predicted to have lipid transporter activity, based on protein domain information
What should we infer from the fact that worms have this "yolk" gene? That this discussion is a complete waste of time.PaV
June 13, 2016
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Hi PaV, Thank you for pointing out to me your views on common ancestry. I'm sorry I mistook you for a special creationist. I've been very busy answering emails during the past few days, so I haven't had the chance to read all comments on this thread. You seem to believe in radical re-design during the course of evolution. Fine. I have no quarrel with that. That may well have happened with the origin of different kinds of eggs. Regarding feathers, it appears that they passed through eight stages during their evolution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feather#Evolutionary_stages I'm quite happy to agree with you that some of these stages were most likely intelligently guided, but judging from the fossil record, there was no overnight radical re-design, of the sort you seem to be envisioning. Intermediate forms have been found. Make of that what you will. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feather#Feathered_dinosaurs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feathered_dinosaurvjtorley
June 13, 2016
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Bornagain77
So, You have an dogmatic atheist running sequence comparisons for you, and another dogmatic atheist who is not impressed with ANYTHING whatsoever that might point to ID. Hmmm Torley, since you clearly are more of a biologos type now than an ID type, exactly why do you even bother to post on UD anymore Torley? You use to give Darwinists fits with your posts, but lately it seems you are completely in bed with Darwinists. Perhaps it is time for you to move on?
Vincent is facilitating debate on this website which is healthy. We all want the truth to surface. If it does after strong debate vs strong agreement it will be more valuable.bill cole
June 13, 2016
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'Name your genes, please.' Why not the genes that were claimed in the study Luskin referenced Let me guess, if you can find matches in non-coding sequences that give a high percentage match you will claim victory for Darwinian evolution?bornagain77
June 13, 2016
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Hi VJt
By the way, I don’t believe new proteins can arise out of junk. But I have a simple question for you: how many proteins do you think are unique to human beings, and what is your evidence for that figure?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15716009#....80% different We should over time figure out how much is due to alternative splicing Abstract The chimpanzee is our closest living relative. The morphological differences between the two species are so large that there is no problem in distinguishing between them. However, the nucleotide difference between the two species is surprisingly small. The early genome comparison by DNA hybridization techniques suggested a nucleotide difference of 1-2%. Recently, direct nucleotide sequencing confirmed this estimate. These findings generated the common belief that the human is extremely close to the chimpanzee at the genetic level. HOWEVER, IF ONE LOOKS AT PROTEINS, WHICH ARE MAINLY RESPONSIBLE FOR PHENOTYPIC DIFFERENCES, THE PICTURE IS QUITE DIFFERENT, AND ABOUT 80% OF PROTEINS ARE DIFFERENT BETWEEN THE TWO SPECIES. Still, the number of proteins responsible for the phenotypic differences may be smaller since not all genes are directly responsible for phenotypic characters.bill cole
June 13, 2016
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bornagain77, You write:
If genetic similarity between supposedly closely related species, as their reasoning goes, is supposed to be undeniable proof for the hypothesis of common ancestry, then finding highly similar sequences in widely divergent species should serve as a falsification for that hypothesis.
Tell you what. Let's consider your claim that birds and humans use essentially the same genes to speak. If you can find these genes in humans and birds but not in chimps and gorillas, then I'll agree that would constitute a sever difficulty for the hypothesis of common descent. Name your genes, please.vjtorley
June 13, 2016
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Torley, the same Moran who was not impressed with the ENCODE findings? So, You have an dogmatic atheist running sequence comparisons for you, and another dogmatic atheist who is not impressed with ANYTHING whatsoever that might point to ID. Hmmm Torley, since you clearly are more of a biologos type now than an ID type, exactly why do you even bother to post on UD anymore Torley? You use to give Darwinists fits with your posts, but lately it seems you are completely in bed with Darwinists. Perhaps it is time for you to move on? Moreover, How much junk DNA do you think is in the human genome Torley? As to your question about unique proteins, besides the dark proteome study I listed, it is now found that the alternative splicing patterns are very different between species,, even very different chimps and humans. And since alternative splicing can produce variant proteins and expression patterns as different as the products of different genes, then I expect humans to contain a healthy percentage of human specific proteins that are different from chimps since the alternative splicing patterns are very different between chimps and humans. It is a prediction I am very comfortable with. Alternative Splicing Codes are Species Specific Excerpt: On the other hand, the papers show that most alternative splicing events differ widely between even closely related species. “The alternative splicing patterns are very different even between humans and chimpanzees,” said Blencowe.,,, https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UMbNM8V2b7mRzPJt05mlev3UO4SG1bMTV5wkNunezjY/edit Frequent Alternative Splicing of Human Genes - 1999 Excerpt: Alternative splicing can produce variant proteins and expression patterns as different as the products of different genes. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC310997/bornagain77
June 13, 2016
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vjtorley, I have a few questions I'd like to ask you but I don't the time right now. Can you please check back a bit later and respond? Take care, HeKSHeKS
June 13, 2016
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vjtorley:
HeKS, PaV and Dr. JDD, Re the case for common descent as opposed to common design, you might like to have a look at these comments by gpuccio over on my “Consider the Opossum” thread, which are particularly well-argued:
In both of those posts, gpuccio is arguing against "special creation." On a number of occasions, I have already made it perfectly clear that I do not believe in "special creation," so why do you think that I do? The important difference between "common descent" and "common ancestry" is not one of "special creation," rather, it is simply about "design," and how that might take place. I would think this would be rather apparent to everyone. So, since it is not, then let me be a bit more specific: So, let me ask: How did the various types of animal eggs come about? We're talking about chicken eggs, aren't we? Well, how did the 'bird egg' come about? Does anyone know? Did it come about gradual step by step? If so, then how? Where are the "intermediaries"? When you talk about different body-types, then you're talking about different egg cells. There can be NO development of the body-type if the intelligence stored in the cell is not already present. This stored knowledge must properly interact with the nuclear DNA for the animal to form. Thus, part of the "design" principle strongly suggests that not only is the nuclear DNA reconfigured, but also the egg itself. If this is true, then the whole notion of "common descent" makes no sense. Why? Because, and I use this phrase simply to illustrate, "mitochondrial Eve" is not just a plain succession of egg cells, but changes when the overall body-plan is significantly changed. Hence my question (that Professor Swamidass apparently doesn't want to touch with a 'ten-foot pole') about where the 'bird feather' came about is completely caught up in what I have just stated. So, e.g., referencing the Wikipedia page, how did the bird egg come about from the reptilian one? Did feathers appear slowly? Did one reptile show the beginnings of a feather, and then later on, its descendants showed a little bit more, and so on? The fossil record doesn't indicate this. So, the "egg" changed, and changed dramatically, and changed in a "discrete," not a "continuous" fashion. All of this should be patently clear to everyone. And it is the fossil record, not the DNA comparison, that tells us how we should think about all of this. Q.E.D.PaV
June 13, 2016
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bornagain77 and Andre, Your claims of fraud with regard to whale evolution are mistaken. Please see here: http://marmotism.blogspot.jp/2015/01/whale-evolution-fraud-and-creationist.htmlvjtorley
June 13, 2016
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bornagain77, You mention dark proteins. You might like to have a look at this post by Larry Moran, who wasn't too impressed with the paper you cited: http://sandwalk.blogspot.jp/2015/11/3000-new-genes-discovered-in-human.html By the way, I don't believe new proteins can arise out of junk. But I have a simple question for you: how many proteins do you think are unique to human beings, and what is your evidence for that figure?vjtorley
June 13, 2016
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Dr Torley I'll let Dr Werner speak
Since only two closely linked scientists had found nearly all of the “fossil” evidence of walking whales, Dr. Werner began to wonder if the other walking whales were created in this same way. In 2013, he interviewed the second scientist, Dr. Hans Thewissen, (a former student of Dr. Gingerich), who found the walking whale called Ambulocetus. Dr. Werner said, “It was like Déjà vu. I walked in for the interview and saw the skeleton lying there on the table and I was again stunned. The most spectacular part of the fossil, a partially evolved blowhole, was missing on the fossil. It appeared that Thewissen had added whale parts (in this case a blowhole) to the areas where he had no fossil evidence, just as his former professor had done.” When Dr. Werner began questioning Dr. Thewissen about the shape of the skull and missing fossil parts, Thewissen retracted the entire blowhole idea even though he had supplied the world’s top museums with skeletons having blowholes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkwhd_gIR7cAndre
June 13, 2016
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Dr Torley..... This is important.... Here is the guy that made whale evolution famous.... http://www-personal.umich.edu/~gingeric/PDGwhales/Whales.htm He even gets an honourable mention at Talk Origins! http://www.talkorigins.org/features/whales/ Here is Dr Gingerich admitting his fraud. https://youtu.be/R7e6C6yUqck It's a scam!Andre
June 13, 2016
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as to whale evolution:
Whale Evolution vs. Population Genetics - Richard Sternberg and Paul Nelson - (excerpted from 'Living Waters' video) (2015) https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/vb.100000088262100/1161131450566453/?type=2&theater
Papa Giorgio took it upon himself to organize some of my notes falsifying whale evolution into a much more aesthetically pleasing blog post
Whale of a Tale ~ Debating Evolution - June 5, 2016 by Papa Giorgio (fraudulent fossils revealed) http://religiopoliticaltalk.com/whale-of-a-tale-debating-whale-evolution/ excerpt: Philip Gingerich, the paleontologist who discovered and reconstructed Rhohocetus, which has been called by evolutionists, ‘the most spectacular intermediary fossil in whale evolution’, states this about that, “most spectacular intermediary fossil”…. “Well, I told you we don’t have the tail in Rodhocetus. We don’t know for sure whether it had a ball vertebrate indicating a (tail) fluke or not. So I speculated (that) it might have had a (tail) fluke…. Since then we found the forelimbs, the hands, and the front arms, the arms in other words of Rodhocetus, and we understand that it doesn’t have the kind of arms that can be spread out like flippers are on a whale.,, If you don’t have flippers, I don’t think you can have a fluke tail and really powered swimming. And so I now doubt that Rodhocetus would have had a fluke tail.”
also of note;
Explosive Evolution of Whales Followed by Little Change - June 1, 2010 Excerpt: We could have found that the main whale lineages over time each experimented with being large, small and medium-sized and that all the dietary forms appeared throughout their evolution, or that whales started out medium-sized and the largest and smallest ones appeared more recently—but the data show none of that. Instead, we find that the differences today were apparent very early on. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2010/05/explosive-evolution-of-whales-followed.html
bornagain77
June 13, 2016
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"Gpuccio makes an excellent case" Gpuccio. like you, refuses to consider evidence that falsifies his CD hypothesis and only focuses on evidence that supports his hypothesis. It is simply bad science since it does not submit to the criteria of falsification (Much like everything else in Darwinian theory).
"Being an evolutionist means there is no bad news. If new species appear abruptly in the fossil record, that just means evolution operates in spurts. If species then persist for eons with little modification, that just means evolution takes long breaks. If clever mechanisms are discovered in biology, that just means evolution is smarter than we imagined. If strikingly similar designs are found in distant species, that just means evolution repeats itself. If significant differences are found in allied species, that just means evolution sometimes introduces new designs rapidly. If no likely mechanism can be found for the large-scale change evolution requires, that just means evolution is mysterious. If adaptation responds to environmental signals, that just means evolution has more foresight than was thought. If major predictions of evolution are found to be false, that just means evolution is more complex than we thought." ~ Cornelius Hunter
bornagain77
June 13, 2016
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HeKS, PaV and Dr. JDD, Re the case for common descent as opposed to common design, you might like to have a look at these comments by gpuccio over on my "Consider the Opossum" thread, which are particularly well-argued: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/consider-the-opossum-the-evidence-for-common-descent/#comment-610082 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/consider-the-opossum-the-evidence-for-common-descent/#comment-610140 Gpuccio makes an excellent case, in my opinion, and he writes very clearly and persuasively.vjtorley
June 13, 2016
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Andre, You write that "we know today what Kenneth Miller cited as transitional fossils were in fact not" and that "whale evolution is nonsense." The Wikipedia article on Archaeopteryx makes it clear that the bird is still viewed by scientists as transitional: "Archaeopteryx, sometimes referred to by its German name Urvogel ("original bird" or "first bird"), is a genus of bird-like dinosaurs that is transitional between non-avian feathered dinosaurs and modern birds." Controversy continues as to whether another fossil, Xiaotingia, is more closely related to modern birds than Archaeopteryx is. If Ichthyostega was not itself a transitional form, it was certainly related to other animals that were: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthyostega#Relationships These animals had not yet been discovered when Gish debated Miller, in 1982. Finally, we have a large number of transitional fossils between land animals and whales, none of which were known to Gish: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_cetaceans You might argue that intelligent guidance was required to effect the transition, and I would agree. But the fact remains: there is a transition in the fossil record.vjtorley
June 13, 2016
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