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Common descent: Ann Gauger’s response to Vincent Torley

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Here:

Well, I must say I didn’t expect to be honored by a 7500 word broadside by philosopher Dr. Vincent Torley, assisted by Dr. Josh Swamidass, Assistant Professor at Washington University. I guess they must have a lot of spare time. The reason for the post at Uncommon Descent? Both hold common descent to be absolutely, incontrovertibly, obviously true, and they apparently wish I would fall into line and stop embarrassing them by doubting common descent. They wish I would give up my “peculiar kind of intellectual obstinacy.”

The argument is in the end all about common descent. (There are a few accusations of poor reasoning, obscuring the issue, and even a little bad faith along the way.) Look, intelligent design is not wedded to common descent. Neither is it wedded to a denial of common descent. Intelligent design states that there is evidence of design in the universe. I think we are in agreement on this point. In terms of biology, how the designer instantiated that design is still subject to debate, based on the strength of the evidence for each position.

As a biologist, I see evidence on both sides of the debate. The evidence is equivocal — hence the fact that ID advocates take different positions on the subject. Yet common descent — the idea that organisms descend from one or a few common ancestors — is treated like a sacred cow by many scientists, and even, it appears, by some philosophers. Indignation arises that anyone would doubt it, would even have questions. Scientists take common descent as axiomatic, and accept evidence that is itself interpreted through a lens of common descent as proof of common descent. As a consequence, any evidence against common descent meets opposition and is explained away.More.

Background: Vincent Torley: Evidence for common descent: here

Comments
My youngest son is 8, and like any other kid he loves Dinosaurs, last week he came home and told me that Birds evolved from Dinosaurs, when I asked him if he think's it is true he said of course it is his teacher told him all about Dino fluff evolving into feathers, and the hollow bones of a dinosaur made it very easy for them to start flying. I'm gutted because how do I explain to my son the difficulties of such a transition when it comes to morphological changes required? He is uncritical of any contradictory evidence and only because his teacher told him so...... They sure are indoctrination these kids at a young age. In addition my 10 year old last night at the dinner table told me about the importance of governments having to create more laws to keep people in check and that this is a good thing......... Like I said I'm gutted.......Andre
June 13, 2016
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Thickpython..... Well as you know by now there are varying results..... Some say less than 10% https://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2014/08/05/how-much-of-human-dna-is-doing-something/ Some say 2% - 15% http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3622293/ Larry Moran says less than 10% http://sandwalk.blogspot.co.za/2011/05/whats-in-your-genome.html Encode says perhaps 80% https://www.genome.gov/10005107/encode-project/ Prokaryote's apparently have 20% https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prokaryote This paper does not give a figure but it explains the possible importance of the non-coding regions.... https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/gb4140 What is the lesson here? Nobody is actually sure, except, you of course...Andre
June 13, 2016
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Origenes @116: OK, that is probably a more charitable way of reading his comment. The context of the discussion and the way he approached it made it seem that he actually thought a few mutations here and there in DNA was adequate to the task.Eric Anderson
June 13, 2016
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@Bornagain77: Your refusal to answer a simple question has been duly noted. Again.ThickPython
June 13, 2016
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go soak your head troll, your overall point is refuted regardless of what you want to drag up. ORFans have already, and very unexpectedly on Darwinian presuppositions, been found to be just as essential as old genes. If you were the least bit concerned with honesty and finding the truth, you would readily admit that falsifying point to your Darwinian position rather than trying to play stupid troll games with irrelevant details!bornagain77
June 13, 2016
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@Bornagain77, #121:
Here we detected 20 putative new human proteins using ribosome profiling from brain tissue [66]. Considering that the expression of most de novo genes was restricted to testis for which no ribosome profiling data has yet been published, we expect this number to increase substantially in the future.
While I have to give you partial credit for your link-clicking and copy-pasting abilities, you get a fail for emphasising completely the wrong paragraph. The question was not "how many new human proteins were detected overall?" (for which the answer is indeed 20), it was "how many of the human-specific genes code for a protein?" Just so I know you understand the paper - please state how many of these 634 human-specific genes were found to be protein-coding genes. It's a very simple question, you even copy-pasted the relevant paragraph.ThickPython
June 13, 2016
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of note from discussion "An interesting observation was that the coding score of de novo genes was clearly non-random." Better throw a just so story at that finding! :)bornagain77
June 13, 2016
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Moreover, you are also wrong to imply that ORFan genes are trivial in the functional roles they play This following study, in which the functional role of ORFan genes was analyzed, the (Darwinian) researchers were 'very shocked' and 'taken aback' by what they found;
New Genes, New Brain - October 2011 Excerpt: “This is one of the first studies to look at the role of completely novel genes” in primate brain development,,, A bevy of genes known to be active during human fetal and infant development first appeared at the same time that the prefrontal cortex,,, Finally, 54 of the 280 genes found to be unique to humans were also highly expressed in the developing prefrontal cortex,,,, “We were very shocked that there were that many new genes that were upregulated in this part of the brain,” said Long, who added that he was also taken aback by synchronicity of the origin of the genes and the development of novel brain structures.,,, http://the-scientist.com/2011/10/19/new-genes-new-brain/
This study states that they are not 'dispensable'
New genes from non-coding sequence: the role of de novo protein-coding genes in eukaryotic evolutionary innovation - Aoife McLysaght, Daniele Guerzoni 31 August 2015 Excerpt: From simple beginnings, these genes have in some instances acquired complex structure, regulated expression and important functional roles. New genes are often thought of as dispensable late additions; however, some recent de novo genes in human can play a role in disease. http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/370/1678/20140332 Can new genes arise from junk DNA? - August 2015 Excerpt: Researchers are beginning to understand that de novo genes seem to make up a significant part of the genome, yet scientists have little idea of how many there are or what they do. What’s more, mutations in these genes can trigger catastrophic failures. “It seems like these novel genes are often the most important ones,” said Erich Bornberg-Bauer, a bioinformatician at the University of Münster in Germany.,,, “How does novel gene become functional? How does it get incorporated into actual cellular processes?” McLysaght said. “To me, that’s the most important question at the moment.” https://uncommondescent.com/junk-dna/can-new-genes-arise-from-junk-dna/
Same here:
Age doesn't matter: New genes are as essential as ancient ones - December 2010 Excerpt: "A new gene is as essential as any other gene; the importance of a gene is independent of its age," said Manyuan Long, PhD, Professor of Ecology & Evolution and senior author of the paper. "New genes are no longer just vinegar, they are now equally likely to be butter and bread. We were shocked." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101216142523.htm New genes in Drosophila quickly become essential. - December 2010 Excerpt: The proportion of genes that are essential is similar in every evolutionary age group that we examined. Under constitutive silencing of these young essential genes, lethality was high in the pupal (later) stage and (but was) also found in the larval (early) stages. http://www.sciencemag.org/content/330/6011/1682.abstract
A few more notes:
Genes from nowhere: Orphans with a surprising story - 16 January 2013 - Helen Pilcher Excerpt: When biologists began sequencing genomes they discovered up to a third of genes in each species seemed to have no parents or family of any kind. Nevertheless, some of these "orphan genes" are high achievers (are just as essential as 'old' genes),,, But where do they come from? With no obvious ancestry, it was as if these genes appeared out of nowhere, but that couldn't be true. Everyone assumed that as we learned more, we would discover what had happened to their families. But we haven't-quite the opposite, in fact.,,, The upshot is that the chances of random mutations turning a bit of junk DNA into a new gene seem infinitesmally small. As the French biologist Francois Jacob wrote 35 years ago, "the probability that a functional protein would appear de novo by random association of amino acids is practically zero".,,, Orphan genes have since been found in every genome sequenced to date, from mosquito to man, roundworm to rat, and their numbers are still growing. http://ccsb.dfci.harvard.edu/web/export/sites/default/ccsb/publications/papers/2013/All_alone_-_Helen_Pilcher_New_Scientist_Jan_2013.pdf Darwin’s (Failed Predictions) - Similar species share similar genes - Cornelius Hunter PhD. Excerpt: As much as a third of the genes in a given species may be unique, and even different variants within the same species have large numbers of genes unique to each variant. Different variants of the Escherichia coli bacteria, for instance, each have hundreds of unique genes. (Daubin and Ochman) Significant genetic differences were also found between different fruit fly species. Thousands of genes showed up missing in many of the species, and some genes showed up in only a single species. (Levine et. al.) As one science writer put it, “an astonishing 12 per cent of recently evolved genes in fruit flies appear to have evolved from scratch.” (Le Page) These novel genes must have evolved over a few million years, a time period previously considered to allow only for minor genetic changes. (Begun et. al.; Chen et. al., 2007) Initially some evolutionists thought these surprising results would be resolved when more genomes were analyzed. They predicted that similar copies of these genes would be found in other species. But instead each new genome has revealed yet more novel genes. (Curtis et. al.; Marsden et. al.; Pilcher) Next evolutionists thought that these rapidly-evolving unique genes must not code for functional or important proteins. But again, many of the unique proteins were in fact found to play essential roles. (Chen, Zhang and Long 1010; Daubin and Ochman; Pilcher) As one researcher explained, “This goes against the textbooks, which say the genes encoding essential functions were created in ancient times.” (Pilcher) https://sites.google.com/site/darwinspredictions/similar-species-share-similar-genes
bornagain77
June 13, 2016
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ThickPython,
Discussion Excerpts from discussion: We performed a large-scale transcriptomics-based investigation on the emergence of new genes in hominoids. Our strategy was annotation-independent, which allowed us to recover many novel (non-annotated) genes and compare species for which the level of annotation varies greatly. The approach was entirely different from that employed in previous studies in which the initial datasets were composed of annotated protein coding genes in humans that lacked homologous proteins in other species [12,19–21]. We instead focused on new transcriptional events and subsequently analyzed the properties of the transcripts including coding potential and purifying selection signatures. We assembled the transcriptomes from different species to account for differences in the level of annotation, being able to recover a large number of genes likely to have originated very recently. We employed a polyadenylated RNA sequencing strategy that was based on a combination of high sequencing depth and strand-specific sequencing, with an average of 115 Million mapped reads per sample. After performing exhaustive sequence similarity searches, we identified 2,714 genes which were specific of human, chimpanzee, or their hominoid ancestor. This is more than one order of magnitude greater than the number of human or primate-specific genes reported in previous studies [12,19–21] Most de novo genes were not annotated in the databases and their coding status was unclear. We analyzed two coding properties in de novo genes as well as in other sequences: ORF length and ORF coding score. The latter score was based on hexanucleotide frequencies in bona fide sets of coding and non-coding sequences (see Methods). The median length of the longest ORF of each de novo gene was 52 amino acids. De novo predicted proteins were shorter than proteins encoded by annotated coding RNAs (codRNA) with the same transcript length distribution as the set of de novo genes, and comparable to ORFs from similarly sampled intronic sequences (Fig 4a and 4b). In contrast, the coding score of the longest ORF was higher in de novo genes than in intronic ORFs (Wilcoxon test, p-value < 10?10) and comparable to the score for proteins shorter than 100 amino acids in the set of annotated protein-coding genes. Next we searched for experimental evidence of proteins produced by de novo genes. We employed mass-spectrometry data from a recent study [64], limiting the searches to the same tissues we used for transcript assembly to increase specificity (testis, brain, heart, and liver), and also searched in Proteomics DB [65]. We identified uniquely mapping peptides in 6 de novo genes; 1 human and 5 hominoid-specific genes (Table 1). All 6 were expressed in testis; one was preferentially expressed in heart. In addition, we detected signatures of translation in 5 human and 10 hominoid-specific de novo genes using available ribosome profiling sequencing data from human brain [66]. Overall, 21 de novo genes had evidence of translation Here we detected 20 putative new human proteins using ribosome profiling from brain tissue [66]. Considering that the expression of most de novo genes was restricted to testis for which no ribosome profiling data has yet been published, we expect this number to increase substantially in the future. http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1005721
also note 'non-random'bornagain77
June 13, 2016
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@Bornagain77, #80:
"So, You have an dogmatic atheist running sequence comparisons for you ..."
Wow. I didn't know the BLAST algorithm took my religious views into account. Oh, wait, hang on - there it is, how could I have missed it! USAGE blastn [-h] [-help] [-import_search_strategy filename] [-export_search_strategy filename] [-task task_name] [-db database_name] [-atheist_mode int_value] [-template_type type] [-template_length int_value] [-dust DUST_options] [-filtering_db filtering_database] ThickPython
June 13, 2016
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@Bornagain77, #69: Glenn: "These human genes which supposedly had no evolutionary history have corresponding sequence in the chimpanzee genome which is – on average – about 95.41% identical. Bornagain77: "Torley you do know those sequences are not protein coding don’t you?" Hold up. Were you under the impression that these "634 human-specific genes" were protein coding? In the 13 minutes between Vincent's post at #68, and your response at #69, how much of that was spent reading the actual paper? I'd be guessing zero. Would you like to know how many of those 634 genes are protein-coding? One. They found one protein. It was a paltry 49 amino acids long. There are five other transcripts that might be translated, but obviously not frequently enough for a peptide to actually be detected.ThickPython
June 13, 2016
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Origines, The puffer fish, Fugu, has a genome that's about 10% of the size of the human genome. Doesn't seem to prevent it from having a body plan, making a brain, doing biochemistry.wd400
June 13, 2016
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PaV, I'm not a YEC, never have been, never even intimated it on UD and have actually defended OEC a time or two on UD against YECers such as Sal. My Faith in God is doing just fine by the way because of the science not in spite of it:
Theism compared to Materialism/Naturalism - a comparative overview of the major predictions of each philosophy – video https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/vb.100000088262100/1139512636061668/?type=2&theater
But let me get this straight, instead of you believing God creating 'after their kinds' in the Cambrian, you instead feel that God perhaps took a bacteria, or took a jellyfish and/or took some sponges and then made all the different phyla out of it/them instead of creating them at their proper time from scratch? Perhaps you think God 'frontloaded' bacteria and/or the laws of nature? And now He is just off somewhere watching it all unfold? Faced with any of those alternatives, my faith is doing just fine PaV. Especially considering the fact that God, in his infinite power, upholds this universe in its continued existence and He is not off somewhere in management, as most people conceptualize Him, but is everywhere present at every moment of time and space, and infinitely so at that!:
Lecture 11: Decoherence and Hidden Variables – Scott Aaronson – MIT associate Professor Excerpt: “Look, we all have fun ridiculing the creationists who think the world sprang into existence on October 23, 4004 BC at 9AM (presumably Babylonian time), with the fossils already in the ground, light from distant stars heading toward us, etc. But if we accept the usual picture of quantum mechanics, then in a certain sense the situation is far worse: the world (as you experience it) might as well not have existed 10^-43 seconds ago!” http://www.scottaaronson.com/democritus/lec11.html New Mind-blowing Experiment Confirms That Reality Doesn’t Exist If You Are Not Looking at It - June 3, 2015 Excerpt: The results of the Australian scientists’ experiment, which were published in the journal Nature Physics, show that this choice is determined by the way the object is measured, which is in accordance with what quantum theory predicts. “It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it,” said lead researcher Dr. Andrew Truscott in a press release.,,, “The atoms did not travel from A to B. It was only when they were measured at the end of the journey that their wave-like or particle-like behavior was brought into existence,” he said. Thus, this experiment adds to the validity of the quantum theory and provides new evidence to the idea that reality doesn’t exist without an observer. http://themindunleashed.org/2015/06/new-mind-blowing-experiment-confirms-that-reality-doesnt-exist-if-you-are-not-looking-at-it.html "We know what the particle is doing at the source when it is created. We know what it is doing at the detector when it is registered. But we do not know what it is doing in-between." Anton Zeilinger Double Slit, Quantum-Electrodynamics, and Christian Theism – video https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/vb.100000088262100/1127450170601248/?type=2&theater Acts 17:28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as also certain of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’
bornagain77
June 13, 2016
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Eric Anderson @114, My questions seem relevant to your interaction with Torley on another thread:
Eric Anderson: Do you seriously think 340 beneficial mutations in DNA could turn an ape-like creature into a human, and 3000 beneficial mutations in DNA could turn a land animal into a whale?
VJTorley: I have to say (reluctantly) that I haven’t seen any rigorous quantitative argument yet as to why this could not be the case.
I cannot speak for Vincent Torley of course, but it seems quite obvious that he doesn't hold that the information for body plans (and how to build a body) is stored in the DNA.Origenes
June 13, 2016
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BA77:
PaV: Special creation” is something altogether different, and, personally, I don’t see how you can justify this position.
And the Cambrian explosion is what exactly, chopped liver?
First, BA77, I have the utmost respect for you. I in no way want to quash or diminish your sincerely held religious belief. Now, I'm not saying this because of your comment, but simply so you know how I feel about things. As to your comment, no, I think the Cambrian Explosion is a big thing. But what I understand as "special creation" is where almost every "type" is formed by the "hand of God," and, further, that it is accomplished in no time at all. If you feel that the age of the earth is of short duration, I don't know how you arrive there scientifically. Could God do things in such a way that the universe appears older than it actually is? Yes, of course. But what purpose would that serve? How does that make things 'better' than if the world was actually 14 billion years old, or whatever the latest estimate says it is? It seems like a needless complication. God is Simple. But, do I think that unguided natural mechanisms can explain the complexity of life as we know it? No possible way. Of course, Michael Denton would hold this position, not from a "Darwinian" point of view, but from the point of view of 19th Century "structuralists." I respect him greatly; but, I disagree. Yet, maybe something will be discovered that will change that. But, as of right now, that 'something' isn't even on the 'radar screen' as far as I'm concerned. Again, I very much respect your heartfelt position on all of this. Hope I didn't offend you in any way.PaV
June 13, 2016
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Origenes @112: Good questions. The claims that the vast majority of our DNA is junk are based on terrible assumptions, poor logic, a paucity of evidence, a nearly complete lack of engineering analysis, and are contrary to the trend and trajectory of evidence.Eric Anderson
June 13, 2016
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bill cole:
Hi PaV Do you think the theory that chimps and man share a common ancestor 6 million years ago can be reconciled biochemically through known natural mechanisms such as neutral theory and RMNS? Do you think an unknown mechanism such as one that has design capability was required?
Well, first of all, it "must" be reconciled biochemically, but these correlations exist. As to the question of whether known natural mechanisms such as NT or RMNS can account for it, I guess it's obvious that if I thought that, I wouldn't have much to say in favor of ID. However, ask yourself this question: if a "Designer" modified the DNA of one creature so as to 'form' another creature, what would that 'look' like? It would 'look' exactly like if RMNS or NT brought it about. You cannot tell the difference between the two. So, that leaves us with improbabilities, doesn't it? And, of course, nothing in the universe is that improbable, not even a "camel passing through the eye of a needle."PaV
June 13, 2016
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VJTorley: By the way, I believe about 10% of our DNA is functional – maybe 20% at a stretch. I used to think otherwise, but Moran’s posts on junk DNA have convinced me otherwise. He always manages to trounce his critics.
If there is so much junk DNA, then where is the information stored for the (adult) body plan? Where is the information stored for e.g. the brain? And where is the information stored for how to build all this? What is Moran's position on this? I'm just asking.Origenes
June 13, 2016
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vjtorley, Here's what I would like to know... 1) You seem to agree that design is a necessary part of the explanation for the evolution and diversification of life, and that this fact is discernible on the evidence. Am I correct? 2) Presumably you are aware of the fact that highly qualified people in the computer sciences and the biological sciences, including people who do not support ID, say that DNA, for all intents and purposes, is software (i.e. they don't use 'software' as a mere analogy). For a small sampling:
“DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software ever created.” – Bill Gates [SOMEONE WHO DESIGNS SOFTWARE]
“Life is a DNA software system” – Craig Venter [SOMEONE WHO DESIGNS DNA]
Steve Meyer has recounted a story about a former Microsoft engineer who he was working with [SOMEONE WHO DESIGNS SOFTWARE FOR A LIVING AND IS NOW STUDYING DNA]. Of this software engineer he says:
He walks into my office one day, throws a book down on the table. It’s called Design Patterns — standard textbook for computer design engineers — and he says, ‘I get the eerie feeling, when I’m looking at what’s going on in the cell, that’s somebody’s figured this out before us.’ And I said, ‘What do you mean?’ And he says, ‘Well, it’s the design patterns,’ and then he points to the book. . . . ‘We’ve got design logic for processing information, for doing error correction, for doing distributed data retrieval and reassembly, and for hierarchical organization — we’ve got files within folders, like on your desktop, you know, in the hierarchical filing system.’ And he says, ‘All those design patterns are inside the cell, except they’re using a design logic that’s like an 8.0, 9.0, 10.0 version of ours. It’s the same basic logic, but it’s more elegantly executed,’ and he says, ‘It gives me an eerie feeling.
Here’s another comment from Venter:
“All living cells run on DNA software, which directs hundreds to thousands of protein robots. We have been digitizing life for decades, since we first figured out how to read the software of life by sequencing DNA.” – Craig Venter, DNA, the Software of Life
Notice that in these quotes, only Bill Gates says that DNA is "like" computer software, but the rest of his sentence shows that what he means by "like" is that it is far more advanced that what humans have been able to produce. Venter, in both cases, says that DNA is software. Can I assume that you agree with these people, at least with regard to the 10-20% of DNA that you think is functional? Take care, HeKSHeKS
June 13, 2016
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@bill cole,  #97: "I also think the existence of the intron that has a binding site inside the fused chromosome 2 telomere that python agreed is real, is very problematic. I would like to see this debated aggressively." Me too! Well, the "debated aggressively" part at least. "Does anyone know Dr Tompkins?" It's Tomkins. No "P". He is jtomkins at the ICR ORGanisation. "Would he join the debate?" I doubt it. From my experience, his vitellogenin gene is a little more functional than mine, if you catch my drift.ThickPython
June 13, 2016
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"Does anyone on this site think that this transition can be biochemically reconciled through known mechanisms other than design?" Bill, not to be flippant, but I don't even think 'known' materialistic mechanisms can account for how one cell turns into tens of trillions of cells, that function as a single cohesive whole for precisely a life-time and not a moment a longer. Much less the transition you mention. Talbott puts that elephant in the living room question like this:
HOW BIOLOGISTS LOST SIGHT OF THE MEANING OF LIFE — AND ARE NOW STARING IT IN THE FACE - Stephen L. Talbott - May 2012 Excerpt: “If you think air traffic controllers have a tough job guiding planes into major airports or across a crowded continental airspace, consider the challenge facing a human cell trying to position its proteins”. A given cell, he notes, may make more than 10,000 different proteins, and typically contains more than a billion protein molecules at any one time. “Somehow a cell must get all its proteins to their correct destinations — and equally important, keep these molecules out of the wrong places”. And further: “It’s almost as if every mRNA [an intermediate between a gene and a corresponding protein] coming out of the nucleus knows where it’s going” (Travis 2011),,, Further, the billion protein molecules in a cell are virtually all capable of interacting with each other to one degree or another; they are subject to getting misfolded or “all balled up with one another”; they are critically modified through the attachment or detachment of molecular subunits, often in rapid order and with immediate implications for changing function; they can wind up inside large-capacity “transport vehicles” headed in any number of directions; they can be sidetracked by diverse processes of degradation and recycling... and so on without end. Yet the coherence of the whole is maintained. The question is indeed, then, “How does the organism meaningfully dispose of all its molecules, getting them to the right places and into the right interactions?” The same sort of question can be asked of cells, for example in the growing embryo, where literal streams of cells are flowing to their appointed places, differentiating themselves into different types as they go, and adjusting themselves to all sorts of unpredictable perturbations — even to the degree of responding appropriately when a lab technician excises a clump of them from one location in a young embryo and puts them in another, where they may proceed to adapt themselves in an entirely different and proper way to the new environment. It is hard to quibble with the immediate impression that form (which is more idea-like than thing-like) is primary, and the material particulars subsidiary. Two systems biologists, one from the Max Delbrück Center for Molecular Medicine in Germany and one from Harvard Medical School, frame one part of the problem this way: "The human body is formed by trillions of individual cells. These cells work together with remarkable precision, first forming an adult organism out of a single fertilized egg, and then keeping the organism alive and functional for decades. To achieve this precision, one would assume that each individual cell reacts in a reliable, reproducible way to a given input, faithfully executing the required task. However, a growing number of studies investigating cellular processes on the level of single cells revealed large heterogeneity even among genetically identical cells of the same cell type. (Loewer and Lahav 2011)",,, And then we hear that all this meaningful activity is, somehow, meaningless or a product of meaninglessness. This, I believe, is the real issue troubling the majority of the American populace when they are asked about their belief in evolution. They see one thing and then are told, more or less directly, that they are really seeing its denial. Yet no one has ever explained to them how you get meaning from meaninglessness — a difficult enough task once you realize that we cannot articulate any knowledge of the world at all except in the language of meaning.,,, http://www.netfuture.org/2012/May1012_184.html#2
Talbott also asks this penetrating question:
The Unbearable Wholeness of Beings - Stephen L. Talbott - 2010 Excerpt: Virtually the same collection of molecules exists in the canine cells during the moments immediately before and after death. But after the fateful transition no one will any longer think of genes as being regulated, nor will anyone refer to normal or proper chromosome functioning. No molecules will be said to guide other molecules to specific targets, and no molecules will be carrying signals, which is just as well because there will be no structures recognizing signals. Code, information, and communication, in their biological sense, will have disappeared from the scientist’s vocabulary. ,,, the question, rather, is why things don’t fall completely apart — as they do, in fact, at the moment of death. What power holds off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer? Despite the countless processes going on in the cell, and despite the fact that each process might be expected to “go its own way” according to the myriad factors impinging on it from all directions, the actual result is quite different. Rather than becoming progressively disordered in their mutual relations (as indeed happens after death, when the whole dissolves into separate fragments), the processes hold together in a larger unity. http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-unbearable-wholeness-of-beings Scientific evidence that we do indeed have an eternal soul (Elaboration on Talbott's question “What power holds off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer?”)– video 2016 https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/vb.100000088262100/1116313858381546/?type=2&theater
Supplemental note, Darwinian evolution, since it it based on reductive materialism, is not even on the proper scientific framework in order to coherently explain how living organisms operate
Jim Al-Khalili, at the 2:30 minute mark of the following video states, ",,and Physicists and Chemists have had a long time to try and get use to it (Quantum Mechanics). Biologists, on the other hand have got off lightly in my view. They are very happy with their balls and sticks models of molecules. The balls are the atoms. The sticks are the bonds between the atoms. And when they can't build them physically in the lab nowadays they have very powerful computers that will simulate a huge molecule.,, It doesn't really require much in the way of quantum mechanics in the way to explain it." At the 6:52 minute mark of the video, Jim Al-Khalili goes on to state: “To paraphrase, (Erwin Schrödinger in his book “What Is Life”), he says at the molecular level living organisms have a certain order. A structure to them that’s very different from the random thermodynamic jostling of atoms and molecules in inanimate matter of the same complexity. In fact, living matter seems to behave in its order and its structure just like inanimate cooled down to near absolute zero. Where quantum effects play a very important role. There is something special about the structure, about the order, inside a living cell. So Schrodinger speculated that maybe quantum mechanics plays a role in life”. Jim Al-Khalili – Quantum biology – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOzCkeTPR3Q Molecular Biology - 19th Century Materialism meets 21st Century Quantum Mechanics - video https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/vb.100000088262100/1141908409155424/?type=2&theater
bornagain77
June 13, 2016
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Hi PaV Do you think the theory that chimps and man share a common ancestor 6 million years ago can be reconciled biochemically through known natural mechanisms such as neutral theory and RMNS? Do you think an unknown mechanism such as one that has design capability was required? Does anyone on this site think that this transition can be biochemically reconciled through known mechanisms other than design?bill cole
June 13, 2016
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“Special creation” is something altogether different, and, personally, I don’t see how you can justify this position." And the Cambrian explosion is what exactly, chopped liver? What Types of Evolution Does the Cambrian Explosion Challenge? - Stephen Meyer - video – (The Cambrian Explosion challenges Universal Common Descent and the Mechanism of Random Variation/Natural Selection) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaF7t5wRFtA&list=UUUMhP2x7_7psVO-H4MJFpAQ Dr. Stephen C. Meyer, PhD talks about the Case for Intelligent Design – video (excellent lecture on the Cambrian Explosion – Oct. 2015) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl802lHAk5Y Oct 18, 2015 - Trinity Classical Academy’s Speaker Series welcomes Dr. Stephen C. Meyer, PhD, author of the New York Times® Bestseller Darwin’s Doubt: The Explosive Origin of Animal Life and the Case for Intelligent Design, and Signature in the Cell: DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design, which won “Book of the Year” by The Times of London Literary Supplement.bornagain77
June 13, 2016
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gpuccio: We see things the same way. It is a matter of degree. I think that in certain instances, the amount of modification is so great that CD becomes misnomer. When cell structure and DNA both change substantially, then it's hard to call this "common descent." There's really nothing common about it. Common ancestry I think is sufficient. "Special creation" is something altogether different, and, personally, I don't see how you can justify this position. In fact, this is what Darwin railed against in the Origins. However, then, as now, this was an entirely minority position. IOW, it was a strawman argument.PaV
June 13, 2016
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vjt: You're pushing too hard with something that is weak. That's my point. CD is not definitely established. It is a convenient presupposition; yet, it remains a presupposition. Do all animals, in some ways, share a common set of tools? Yes. Does this make us related? Yes. Does this mean that there is such a thing as CD? Well, it all depends on exactly what you mean by that. It serves little purpose to push this point with those who believe otherwise. It is at most peripheral to ID. There is no need to "clean up" people's thinking here. That, I'm afraid, is the impression I have: that we must all think as you do. Such orthodoxy is exactly what ID and UD oppose. So, I simply suggest that you go with the flow. There's lots of room for different ways of thinking here. It's not the "ivory tower" of academics---and, thankfully so.PaV
June 13, 2016
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Prof. Swamidass:
C. elegans lays eggs with yolk. Cool how surprising things like this happen in biology. It is not intuitive.
Yes, it's not intuitive that humans share "yolk" genes with worms. BTW, are we more similar to worms, or chickens? And would you like to address the issue that the suspect the function of VIT1 in worms is that of "lipid" transport?PaV
June 13, 2016
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Torley you stated somewhere that those who not hold to the Darwinian theory of common descent had to produce much scientific evidence that common descent was not true so as to be 'accepted' by the scientific community at large. Well, as someone who believes in Intelligent Design, I'm fairly use to not being accepted by the scientific community at large. But anyways, I hold that there is more than enough scientific evidence that calls common descent into question. The problem as I see it is that no matter how much scientific evidence is presented against Darwinian claims it will never be enough because, (since it has no rigid falsification criteria), Darwinian evolution is not even a testable science in a first place, but is more properly classified as a pseudo-science. In other words, like astrology and tea leaf reading, scientific evidence is useless to dissuade true believers, such as yourself, from believing it is true.
comment 40 https://uncommondescent.com/human-evolution/common-descent-ann-gaugers-response-to-vincent-torley/#comment-610029 and comment 50 Dubitable Darwin? Why Some Smart, Nonreligious People Doubt the Theory of Evolution By John Horgan on July 6, 2010 Excerpt: Early in his career, the philosopher Karl Popper ,, called evolution via natural selection “almost a tautology” and “not a testable scientific theory but a metaphysical research program.” Attacked for these criticisms, Popper took them back (in approx 1978). But when I interviewed him in 1992, he blurted out that he still found Darwin’s theory dissatisfying. “One ought to look for alternatives!” Popper exclaimed, banging his kitchen table. https://uncommondescent.com/human-evolution/common-descent-ann-gaugers-response-to-vincent-torley/#comment-610075 “On the other hand, I disagree that Darwin’s theory is as `solid as any explanation in science.; Disagree? I regard the claim as preposterous. Quantum electrodynamics is accurate to thirteen or so decimal places; so, too, general relativity. A leaf trembling in the wrong way would suffice to shatter either theory. What can Darwinian theory offer in comparison?” – Berlinski, D., “A Scientific Scandal?: David Berlinski & Critics,” Commentary, July 8, 2003 Darwinian Evolution is a Unfalsifiable Pseudo-Science – Mathematics – video https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/vb.100000088262100/1132659110080354/?type=2&theater
bornagain77
June 13, 2016
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"In biology, the simple way to do that is to implement modifications on some existing being, but there could be other ways." Since no one has ever changed even one bacterium into another bacterium, much, much, less has anyone ever changed a multicellular organism into another one, how in blue blazes do you know if it is 'easier'? that is simply you stating your philosophical druthers to support your own position. I could just as well maintain, and produce evidence to support it, that it is easier to build a new type of creature de-novo instead of going to all the trouble of morphing an old one into a new onebornagain77
June 13, 2016
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PaV: OK, then what you call common ancestry is exactly what I call descent with designed modifications. My only point is that some things are the same, and are physically conveyed from one species to the other. In biology, the simple way to do that is to implement modifications on some existing being, but there could be other ways.gpuccio
June 13, 2016
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From Foth's 2011 paper abstract:
To simulate the preservation process, a cadaver of recent Carduelis spinus European siskin) was flattened in a printing press. Afterwards, the structure of the plumage was compared with the morphology of a single body feather from the same specimen. In comparison with the single feather, the body plumage of the flattened bird looked rather filamentous. It was almost impossible to identify single structures, and in their place, various artefacts were produced. The investigation of plumage in a specimen of the Mesozoic bird Confuciusornis sanctus reveals similar structures. This indicates that flattening of specimens during fossilization amplifies the effect of overlapping among feathers and also causes a loss of morphological detain which can lead to misinterpretations. The results are discussed in connection with some dubious feather morphologies in recently described therapods and basal birds. Based on recent feather morphology, the structure of so-called proximal ribbon-like pennaceous feathers (PRPFs) found in many basal birds in reinterpreted. [pav: Here, he likely means what Wikipedia has as “Stage 1”] Furthermore, the morphology of a very similar looking feather type found in the forelimb and tail of an early juvenile oviraptorosaur is discussed and diagnosed as the first feather generation growing out of the feather sheath. Thus, the whole plumage of this therapod might represent neoptile plumage. [pav: more-or-less, “down feathers”]
From a March 2011 paper:
Neoptile body feathers from over 22 bird species were investigated using light microscopy, SEM, and MicroCT. Characters such as an anterior-posterior axis, a central rhachis, medullary cells, and structure of the calamus wall were defined and mapped onto recent phylogenetic hypotheses for extant birds. It can be shown that bilaterally symmetric neoptile feathers (with a solid calamus wall) were already present in the stem lineage of crown-group birds (Neornithes). In contrast, simple radially symmetric neoptile feathers (with a fragile calamus wall) are an apomorphic character complex for the clade Neoaves.
"Apomorphic": "apomorphy (derived trait) A novel evolutionary trait that is unique to a particular species and all its descendants and which can be used as a defining character for a species or group in phylogenetic terms. Hence, the possession of feathers is unique to birds and defines all members of the class Aves. This is exactly why Prof. Swamidass avoids the discussion.PaV
June 13, 2016
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