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Common descent: Ann Gauger’s response to Vincent Torley

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Here:

Well, I must say I didn’t expect to be honored by a 7500 word broadside by philosopher Dr. Vincent Torley, assisted by Dr. Josh Swamidass, Assistant Professor at Washington University. I guess they must have a lot of spare time. The reason for the post at Uncommon Descent? Both hold common descent to be absolutely, incontrovertibly, obviously true, and they apparently wish I would fall into line and stop embarrassing them by doubting common descent. They wish I would give up my “peculiar kind of intellectual obstinacy.”

The argument is in the end all about common descent. (There are a few accusations of poor reasoning, obscuring the issue, and even a little bad faith along the way.) Look, intelligent design is not wedded to common descent. Neither is it wedded to a denial of common descent. Intelligent design states that there is evidence of design in the universe. I think we are in agreement on this point. In terms of biology, how the designer instantiated that design is still subject to debate, based on the strength of the evidence for each position.

As a biologist, I see evidence on both sides of the debate. The evidence is equivocal — hence the fact that ID advocates take different positions on the subject. Yet common descent — the idea that organisms descend from one or a few common ancestors — is treated like a sacred cow by many scientists, and even, it appears, by some philosophers. Indignation arises that anyone would doubt it, would even have questions. Scientists take common descent as axiomatic, and accept evidence that is itself interpreted through a lens of common descent as proof of common descent. As a consequence, any evidence against common descent meets opposition and is explained away.More.

Background: Vincent Torley: Evidence for common descent: here

Comments
Dr. JDD (29) First, most humans don't have any of these alleles. However the population does. The mutational hot spot theory would only be a reasonable explanation if "hot spots" didn't mean "hot zones", but it would require specific hot mutational points. If not, then the fact that the alignment of these mutations (relative to the gene's start) would rarely match.bFast
June 11, 2016
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@bill cole, #37:
This image is from Dr Tompkins article. Is this image wrong? If two chromosomes fuse at the telomeres how does a gene or a transcription site appear?
No, the image looks about right to me. But again, you're using language that suggests that a new (pseudo-)gene was created by the fusion when that is not the case. There are two transcripts to this pseudogene - the shorter, canonical transcript (wholly on one side of the fusion site) which is expressed about 4 times as frequently as the longer transcript that spans the fusion site. Transcription factor binding sites are a lot more common than people realise. The binding site on the other side of the fusion didn't "appear" in the sense that it just popped into existence, it was just on the other chromosome. And then we have the binding site in the fusion sequence itself, to which I say whoopty-frikkin-doo. My third post on the fusion model (which is in the works) is on this topic.ThickPython
June 11, 2016
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ThickPython http://www.icr.org/i/articles/af/research_debunks_chrom_fusion_pic.jpg This image is from Dr Tompkins article. Is this image wrong? If two chromosomes fuse at the telomeres how does a gene or a transcription site appear?
The fusion made a binding site available on the other side, and this allowed an additional transcript.
How would a telomere fusion create a binding site?bill cole
June 11, 2016
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Hi everyone, In other news: Professor Swamidass has sent me the results of some BLAST tests which he performed recently, and they accord well with Glenn's results. I'm off to work now, but I'd be happy to supply more details in about 14 hours.vjtorley
June 11, 2016
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Hi everyone, I would like to thank Dr. Ann Gauger for her participation in this discussion over at Uncommon Descent. For the record, although my recent article on UD contained some criticisms of her work, I have the highest respect for her accomplishments and her integrity.vjtorley
June 11, 2016
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@bill cole, #33:
How would you propose the gene arrived in this location from fused telomeres?
Hello, and welcome to the misinformation that is spread by Jeff Tomkins. If the chromosome were to be split at the fusion point, the DDX11L2 pseudogene would still exist. It is NOT the case that before the fusion there was no gene, and after the fusion there was a gene. The fusion made a binding site available on the other side, and this allowed an additional transcript.ThickPython
June 11, 2016
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VJT
https://roohif.wordpress.com/2016/05/29/chromosome-2-fusion-dead-in-a-day/
How would you propose the gene arrived in this location from fused telomeres?bill cole
June 11, 2016
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@Ann, #31:
then why not report this data in their paper?
Full disclosure: I haven't actually read the Brawand paper from start to finish, and don't intend to. I'm here merely to show that the synteny is much greater than the 150bp claimed by Tomkins. So you will have to take your question to the authors. My suspicion is that they were only concerned with the exons ... ?ThickPython
June 11, 2016
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@ thickpython then why not report this data in their paper? Anncaleb
June 11, 2016
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@caleb, #26:
But if I read your BLAST specifications right, they are not for the same regions as reported in the Brawand paper. I could be wrong, but the coordinates used in their paper appear to be written along each graph. Are your alignments a demonstration of synteny? It would appear so–but not in the VIT gene regions.
The Brawand paper uses an older version of the human genome - NCBI36 (also known as hg18), Dr Tomkins uses GRCh37/hg19, while the current version is GRCh38. The coordinates differ between versions, but luckily Ensembl have a translation facility. So, for example, when Dr Tomkins describes the locus of the 150bp fragment as chr1:79254632-79254781, I can convert that to GRCh38 coordinates like so: http://rest.ensembl.org/map/human/GRCh37/1:79254632%2E%2E79254781:1/GRCh38?content-type=application/json ... you'll see that in GRCh38 coordinates are 78,789,096 to 78,788,947 which correspond to my BLAST results.
You are correct about not using all four species for comparison–it probably reduces the percent identity. My mistake.
Thank you.ThickPython
June 11, 2016
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bFast: I don't understand your point. Do all humans have these and all chimps? Well surely not. As all don't have said "disease". A valid alternative then is mutational susceptibility or "hot-spots". I'm wiling to bet there's a lot more of that than most people realise. common design and specifically the Judeo-Christian paradigm would be in line with this interpretation. However evolutionists like to assume all sequences are equally mutable. Except when it suits....Dr JDD
June 11, 2016
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My challenge to the common designers. There is one case, and one case alone that has me hold to common descent (at least common between chimps and humans.) That case is the approximately 80 disease causing point mutations that are shared between humans and chimps. (Unfortunately I do not have source material for this claim, as I read it in a magazine while waiting for the hair dresser.) If I understand correctly, there are about 80 identified genetic alleles that are different from their healthy sibling at a single point -- alleles that exist both in chimp and human. If I understand correctly, if a person or chimp has one of these alleles expressed, he is diseased. (Usually these alleles are recessive, hence a person needs two matching alleles to get the disease.) My understanding is that some of these alleles also exist in other great apes. Now, if you are a common design advocate, please explain this to me. Optionally, please find the source material and show me that the source material is wrong. The common descent position sees this kind of thing as totally natural. (Please understand, however, that this evidence, as seen through a common descent filter, abolishes the concept of a literal Adam and Eve. There must have been a minimum of hundreds of individuals in the species at any given time so that 80 recessive dysfunctional alleles could be carried around.)bFast
June 11, 2016
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Querius (33), "I’ve sometimes wondered whether viruses were originally intended for this purpose." Viruses as agents whose job it is to provide DNA patches. An interesting hypothesis.bFast
June 11, 2016
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@ Glenn I have looked at the alignments you posted and i agree, they are good alignments. But if I read your BLAST specifications right, they are not for the same regions as reported in the Brawand paper. I could be wrong, but the coordinates used in their paper appear to be written along each graph. Are your alignments a demonstration of synteny? It would appear so--but not in the VIT gene regions. You are correct about not using all four species for comparison--it probably reduces the percent identity. My mistake. Anncaleb
June 11, 2016
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vjtorley @1: How does Behe know this is a mutation? Defining the observed pattern or sequence in the alleged "pseudogene" depends on the assumption of common descent itself.Dr JDD
June 11, 2016
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While we're at it, let's make an effort to be clear about what we mean by common descent. Common descent, as understood by some ID proponents is radically different from the common descent that adorns our textbooks and popular claims about the veracity of the materialistic evolution story. As with so very many things in the debate, once we get past the popular terminology and understand what people really mean, we find that there is quite a bit of agreement among ID proponents on this issue, even, I should add, Mike Behe, as quoted at the top.Eric Anderson
June 11, 2016
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bFast,
So the question is, are there any clues left in the data of the DNA that indicate whether the designer is using a patch method (at this offset, insert this data) or a recompile method to implement modifications.
I've sometimes wondered whether viruses were originally intended for this purpose. -QQuerius
June 11, 2016
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PaV: Could you please clarify what is the difference in your opinion between "common descent" and "common ancestry"? I must admit that I am not sure I understand. :)gpuccio
June 11, 2016
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Hi vjt, # 1; citing Professor Michael Behe: ------------------------ "He goes on to say that common descent is true but trivial, and that it does not, by itself, explain how the differences between humans and chimps originated: “Something that is nonrandom must account for the common descent of life” (p. 72, italics Behe’s)." ------------------------ As for the "truth," in terms of similarities, and based on never seen imperceptible increments according to the common descent terminology of Darwinism; that’s when alarm bells should ring for what constitutes ‘certainty’ in terms of common descent. The ID movement, in strict terms, does not identify any higher intelligent designer. To my understanding, ID science has also grounded itself mainly on a landscape of theology, or in a “trivial” or jovial manner (to some), Martians in some form or another. Consequences there must be. Darwin used theology as a starting pistol to blast the brains out of his version of natural selection. In my opinion, Christians are gravely in danger of following Darwin, who no sooner out of the starting blocks of “Origin,” ‘masterly’ concluded the Judaeo-Christian God of Sinai was "erroneous" p 6, by dismissing recorded evidence, hence becoming an honoured expert as recognised by fallible humans. When Christians’ use starting pistols to blow the brains out of the Judaeo-Christian scripture and belief, to favour an interpretation based on an alternative historic bound scientific belief, we blow the brains out of Christ, and our own life force! However, for ID Judaeo-Christians, a little light reflection on what Jesus said may not go amiss: ----------------------------------- "The one who rejects me and does not receive my word has a judge; on the last day the word that I have spoken will serve as judge, for I have not spoken on my own, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment about what to say and what to speak. And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I speak, therefore, I speak just as the Father has told me." (Jn 12:48-50). ------------------------------------ For a Christian, surely, as the supreme intelligence; of whom Jesus is one in essence with Yahweh; said He spoke: “face to face–clearly;” not in riddles” with “my servant Moses” (Num 12:7-8). Jesus confirmed the law of Sinai (Matt 5:17-18). He said it was hypocrisy to elasticate divine law (Matt 15:3-9). His words are relevant today in terms of the ‘tradition’ of Darwinism. Vjt’s scholarly and philosophical version of the “truth” — common descent is true — again, needed may be further stocktaking. Jesus said he is the “truth” (Jn 14:6) and he said the Father was also the “truth” (Jn 17:17). As for the cited comment by vjt, “common descent is true but trivial,” such may need further exploration as it may seem ambiguous, loaded, and misleading. Common descent exists from one parent to the next, and via some hiccups, from the beginning. Also, common descent exists in the imagination that is a fact and by consensus science. However, it is impossible for such science to prove humans have ascended from worm and fish parents; or from sterile lifeless dust ‘parentage.’ And beyond that, believing in gaseous ‘parents’ created in outer space; out of no space and nowhere. All that is from the thought beans of agnostic Darwin bringing forth his magic tree of life. Of course, theistic evolutionist, including ID theistic evolutionism, claims God did it to their way of thinking when the God of Sinai said totally the opposite and placed his command as a divine law. Yet: -------------------------------- Dr Vincent Torley and Dr Josh Swamidass, Assistant Professor; “both hold common descent to be absolutely, incontrovertibly, obviously true,” Dr Ann Gauger states. -------------------------------- However, there is room for the interpretation that common similarity may be rooted in a common designer based on God's intelligent words at Sinai. Is there an afterglow from the believed big bang of miracles at origins: similar building blocks and method used, but laid down at divine speed, and at such a speed that it is humanly impossible to see where one life form ends and another starts, that is in the three separate appearing kingdoms of; mineral; vegetable; animal, and the super animal that is both human and divine forever. Jesus never went to any formal set of learning: he just had the Father the Almighty. He just created the universe in six days, so he said, and among other things, biologically speaking, kick-started Lazarus back to life after his life functions were stinking with rotten system decay. Every recorded miracle in the Judaeo-Christian scriptures was instant in some way. The one continuous origin miracle spread out to suit humans, not God, as he could have instantly created the earth and all life on it perfectly fit, including then the cosmos. God is not deceiving us; we are deceiving ourselves by drinking Darwinian moonshine. As Christians, surely, therefore, better science must follow from following his “way” (Jn 14:6). We surely cannot end up in greater fragmentation to suit common consensus science bogged down in a system of thought generated from a person who denied Judaeo-Christianity as being a divinely revealed religion! However, then the theological generator spins; surely, the ‘higher intelligence’ confirmed as divine law, origin miracles at Sinai. Every miracle in scripture so recorded, has been done speedily by unknown means. In that context, we also do well to remember, concerning miracles, no scientific interpretation of miraculous data is possible. They are beyond our understanding. Otherwise, we — fallen humanity in Judaeo-Christian scriptural terms, would be able to profess to examine God, and by implication, be equal to, or greater than God through science. Now where have we heard similar before? Judaeo-Christians are not justified by science, but by faith in what God said and wrote. And the Ten Commandments are the only scripture historically recorded as written by the finger of God, and hence deserving the utmost respect and learning from. When will humans be allowed to integrate miracles into origin theory, as a valid means to intelligent understanding? Before that event, needed is a second exodus; out of bondage to the house of Darwin. However, I look forward to Dr A Gauger's further additions to her comment: ----------------------- “My dispute with Torley (and Venema) is at bottom a dispute about the scientific interpretation of data, or should be.” ---------–------------------ We do well to remember that.mw
June 11, 2016
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vjt: You quote Behe as:
It’s hard to imagine how there could be stronger evidence for the common ancestry of chimps and humans.
I had no recall of this quote, but you see that he uses the very term I prefer--"common ancestry"--though I maintain that common descent is too strong a statement, while Behe is comfortable with it. No one is now---nor do I think ever will be---able to confirm, or disprove, a 'discontinuous' line of inheritance. You also say that Michael Behe considers CD trivial. I suspect everyone here at UD does so also. As they say, "There are bigger fish to fry." Lastly, you'll notice that Dr. Swamidrass never responded to my question about the 'bird feather.' If you want to "prove" that CD doesn't exist, and that it should rather be replace by 'common ancestry', implying a discontinuous form of inheritance, then that is the candidate. It continues to be problematic for evolutionary biologists. LasPaV
June 11, 2016
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Hi everyone, I'd like to second bFast's observation that common descent and common design are not mutually exclusive. I might add that Glenn Williamson has written a couple of excellent posts in response to Dr. Jeffrey Tomkins, regarding chromosome 2: https://roohif.wordpress.com/2016/05/14/chromosome-2-fusion-the-low-hanging-fruit/ https://roohif.wordpress.com/2016/05/29/chromosome-2-fusion-dead-in-a-day/vjtorley
June 11, 2016
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Mung@10
The scientific evidence? Because I’d really like to know the Biblical evidence against the proposition that chickens and porcupines share a common ancestor. Were both chickens and porcupines on the ark? How do you decide what “kind” a chicken belongs to and what “kind” a porcupine belongs to? How do you decide which “kinds” survived the flood?
Is there biblical evidence for the chicken and porcupine? Biochemically two different sequences that required very precise and intentional arrangement.bill cole
June 11, 2016
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@Ann, from the original article:
The 50 percent identity that is so disputed was simply calculated based on the percent identical positions for this 150 base alignment.
The 150 base alignment shown in figure S2, with its 50 percent identity ...
It's probably disputed because it doesn't make sense to count the identical positions from an alignment with four species. If you keep adding species, you'll increase the chances of seeing a new SNP/mutation at a particular position, and that reduces the identity. I could go and do an alignment for a thousand mammals against the chicken, and claim a 0% identity, but I won't because I'm not an idiot.ThickPython
June 11, 2016
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@Mung, #12:
The question is about the evidence for synteny.
I posted the alignments because Ann Gauger intimated in her article that they did not exist. If you'd bothered to look at the results, you'd see that there are six alignments and they are syntenic in the sense that they maintain their order between the two species.ThickPython
June 11, 2016
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bfast as I'm not familiar with programming, I'll just have to lay out the evidence that I have. But first let's examine the competing hypothesis. Both Atheistic Darwinists and Theistic Evolutionists both hold that life came from preexisting simpler life in a gradual manner. i.e. universal common ancestry. They both hold that it happened in a, 'bottom up', simple to complex manner. The Theistic Evolutionists hold varying positions. Positions ranging from being completely in line with Darwinian presuppositions to those of Torley and others in the ID camp who hold that Intelligence was necessary for every novel protein fold and molecular machine to be brought into existence. Pinning them down on exactly when they think God implemented this design in life is a bit of a tricky affair. It is reminiscent of the 'and then a miracle occurs' cartoon with the punch line being 'can you be a little more specific here'. I would greatly appreciate the Theistic Evolutionists of the ID camp to 'be a little more specific here'. But regardless of the haziness in their thinking as to exactly when and how they think God implemented design in life, none-the-less, as I said before, they hold to the general outline of a gradual, from simple to complex, 'bottom up' scenario. Whereas the classical Theist's position is more clear and pronounced, and easier to discern. Theists hold that God uniquely created man, and each 'kind' of life, uniquely, in a top down manner. The fossil, and even the genetic evidence, supports the 'top down' position of classical Theism: As mentioned on the other thread, the Cambrian explosion, and the fossil record in general, reveal an undeniable pattern of ‘top down’ sudden appearance and then overall stasis, and certainly does NOT reveal a pattern of God gradually morphing one creature into another creature in a ‘bottom up’ fashion as Theistic evolutionists hold. I could produce dozens of quotes from leading paleontologists testifying to this 'top down' pattern, but let these two suffice for now:
"The record of the first appearance of living phyla, classes, and orders can best be described in Wright's (1) term as 'from the top down'." (James W. Valentine, "Late Precambrian bilaterians: Grades and clades," Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences USA, 91: 6751-6757 (July 1994).) Scientific study turns understanding about evolution on its head - July 30, 2013 Excerpt: evolutionary biologists,,, looked at nearly one hundred fossil groups to test the notion that it takes groups of animals many millions of years to reach their maximum diversity of form. Contrary to popular belief, not all animal groups continued to evolve fundamentally new morphologies through time. The majority actually achieved their greatest diversity of form (disparity) relatively early in their histories. ,,,Dr Matthew Wills said: "This pattern, known as 'early high disparity', turns the traditional V-shaped cone model of evolution on its head. What is equally surprising in our findings is that groups of animals are likely to show early-high disparity regardless of when they originated over the last half a billion years. This isn't a phenomenon particularly associated with the first radiation of animals (in the Cambrian Explosion), or periods in the immediate wake of mass extinctions.",,, Author Martin Hughes, continued: "Our work implies that there must be constraints on the range of forms within animal groups, and that these limits are often hit relatively early on. Co-author Dr Sylvain Gerber, added: "A key question now is what prevents groups from generating fundamentally new forms later on in their evolution.,,, http://phys.org/news/2013-07-scientific-evolution.html
The only place one really encounters any real stiff resistance to this fact that the fossil record is completely antagonistic to Darwinian claims is with the human fossil record itself. Here, besides the many fraudulent fossils that Darwinists have proffered over the last century, fossils contending to be the missing link between apes and humans are a dime a dozen. Each contender has been shot down when cooler heads prevail over the media hype. Yet, despite the media hype on fossils purporting to be ‘the missing link’, and the fraudulent cartoon drawings and sculptures showing a chimp morphing into a human, (one misleading drawing of a 'ape/man which Torley displayed on his other post), the missing link between humans/neanderthals and apes is still missing. Let these few quotes suffice for now to get this point across.
Skull “Rewrites” Story of Human Evolution — Again – Casey Luskin – October 22, 2013 Excerpt: “There is a big gap in the fossil record,” Zollikofer told NBC News. “I would put a question mark there. Of course it would be nice to say this was the last common ancestor of Neanderthals and us, but we simply don’t know.” – http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/10/skull_rewrites_078221.html “A number of hominid crania are known from sites in eastern and southern Africa in the 400- to 200-thousand-year range, but none of them looks like a close antecedent of the anatomically distinctive Homo sapiens…Even allowing for the poor record we have of our close extinct kin, Homo sapiens appears as distinctive and unprecedented…there is certainly no evidence to support the notion that we gradually became who we inherently are over an extended period, in either the physical or the intellectual sense.” Dr. Ian Tattersall: – paleoanthropologist – emeritus curator of the American Museum of Natural History – (Masters of the Planet, 2012) When we consider the remote past, before the origin of the actual species Homo sapiens, we are faced with a fragmentary and disconnected fossil record. Despite the excited and optimistic claims that have been made by some paleontologists, no fossil hominid species can be established as our direct ancestor. Richard Lewontin - "Human Diversity", pg.163 (Scientific American Library, 1995) - Harvard Zoologist
Moreover, where the fossil record is clearest to read for humans and not so fragmentary, over the last 30,000 years or so, we find that humans are 'devolving' instead of evolving:
If Modern Humans Are So Smart, Why Are Our Brains Shrinking? - January 20, 2011 Excerpt: John Hawks is in the middle of explaining his research on human evolution when he drops a bombshell. Running down a list of changes that have occurred in our skeleton and skull since the Stone Age, the University of Wisconsin anthropologist nonchalantly adds, “And it’s also clear the brain has been shrinking.” “Shrinking?” I ask. “I thought it was getting larger.” The whole ascent-of-man thing.,,, He rattles off some dismaying numbers: Over the past 20,000 years, the average volume of the human male brain has decreased from 1,500 cubic centimeters to 1,350 cc, losing a chunk the size of a tennis ball. The female brain has shrunk by about the same proportion. “I’d call that major downsizing in an evolutionary eyeblink,” he says. “This happened in China, Europe, Africa—everywhere we look.” http://discovermagazine.com/2010/sep/25-modern-humans-smart-why-brain-shrinking Cro Magnon skull shows that our brains have shrunk - Mar 15, 2010 by Lisa Zyga Excerpt: Using new technology, researchers have produced a replica of the 28,000-year-old brain and found that it is about 15-20% larger than our brains. http://phys.org/news187877156.html
Moreover, the genetic evidence supports the 'devolving' fossil record:
Human Genetic Variation Recent, Varies Among Populations - (Nov. 28, 2012) Excerpt: Nearly three-quarters of mutations in genes that code for proteins -- the workhorses of the cell -- occurred within the past 5,000 to 10,000 years,,, "One of the most interesting points is that Europeans have more new deleterious (potentially disease-causing) mutations than Africans,",,, "Having so many of these new variants can be partially explained by the population explosion in the European population. However, variation that occur in genes that are involved in Mendelian traits and in those that affect genes essential to the proper functioning of the cell tend to be much older." (A Mendelian trait is controlled by a single gene. Mutations in that gene can have devastating effects.) The amount variation or mutation identified in protein-coding genes (the exome) in this study is very different from what would have been seen 5,000 years ago,,, The report shows that "recent" events have a potent effect on the human genome. Eighty-six percent of the genetic variation or mutations that are expected to be harmful arose in European-Americans in the last five thousand years, said the researchers. The researchers used established bioinformatics techniques to calculate the age of more than a million changes in single base pairs (the A-T, C-G of the genetic code) that are part of the exome or protein-coding portion of the genomes (human genetic blueprint) of 6,515 people of both European-American and African-American decent.,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121128132259.htm
Thus the classical Theist has a very strong case that God created all the different kinds of life, including man, unique and distinct, in a 'top down' fashion and that He did not create in a gradual bottom up fashion as is held by both Theistic Evolutionists and Darwinists. The place where the Theistic evolutionist and Darwinist try to make their strongest case for common ancestry, since the fossil record does not support them, is with the genetic evidence. But as with the overall fossil record, the overall pattern in genetic evidence does not support common ancestry. Let this paper suffice for now:
Logged Out - Scientists Can't Find Darwin's "Tree of Life" Anywhere in Nature by Casey Luskin - Winter 2013 Excerpt: the (fossil) record shows that major groups of animals appeared abruptly, without direct evolutionary precursors. Because biogeography and fossils have failed to bolster common descent, many evolutionary scientists have turned to molecules—the nucleotide and amino acid sequences of genes and proteins—to establish a phylogenetic tree of life showing the evolutionary relationships between all living organisms.,,, Many papers have noted the prevalence of contradictory molecule-based phylogenetic trees. For instance: • A 1998 paper in Genome Research observed that "different proteins generate different phylogenetic tree[s]."6 • A 2009 paper in Trends in Ecology and Evolution acknowledged that "evolutionary trees from different genes often have conflicting branching patterns."7 • A 2013 paper in Trends in Genetics reported that "the more we learn about genomes the less tree-like we find their evolutionary history to be."8 Perhaps the most candid discussion of the problem came in a 2009 review article in New Scientist titled "Why Darwin Was Wrong about the Tree of Life."9 The author quoted researcher Eric Bapteste explaining that "the holy grail was to build a tree of life," but "today that project lies in tatters, torn to pieces by an onslaught of negative evidence." According to the article, "many biologists now argue that the tree concept is obsolete and needs to be discarded.",,, Syvanen succinctly summarized the problem: "We've just annihilated the tree of life. It's not a tree any more, it's a different topology entirely. What would Darwin have made of that?" ,,, "battles between molecules and morphology are being fought across the entire tree of life," leaving readers with a stark assessment: "Evolutionary trees constructed by studying biological molecules often don't resemble those drawn up from morphology."10,,, A 2012 paper noted that "phylogenetic conflict is common, and [is] frequently the norm rather than the exception," since "incongruence between phylogenies derived from morphological versus molecular analyses, and between trees based on different subsets of molecular sequences has become pervasive as datasets have expanded rapidly in both characters and species."12,,, http://www.salvomag.com/new/articles/salvo27/logged-out.php
And, as with the fossil record, the only place you will get any real stiff resistance to the overall pattern of genetic evidence is when you come to the human/chimp genetic evidence. But as heavily as 'common descenters' rely on this one piece of genetic evidence to try to make their case for common ancestry between chimps and humans, the evidence is not nearly as robust as they imagine it to be. For starters, several 'unrelated' species have been found to have 'great chunks of the human genome'. For instance, this one example:
Kangaroo genes close to humans Excerpt: Australia's kangaroos are genetically similar to humans,,, "There are a few differences, we have a few more of this, a few less of that, but they are the same genes and a lot of them are in the same order," ,,,"We thought they'd be completely scrambled, but they're not. There is great chunks of the human genome which is sitting right there in the kangaroo genome," http://www.reuters.com/article/science%20News/idUSTRE4AH1P020081118
Moreover, it has recently been found that alternative splicing patterns are 'species specific'
Evolution by Splicing - Comparing gene transcripts from different species reveals surprising splicing diversity. - Ruth Williams - December 20, 2012 Excerpt: A major question in vertebrate evolutionary biology is “how do physical and behavioral differences arise if we have a very similar set of genes to that of the mouse, chicken, or frog?”,,, A commonly discussed mechanism was variable levels of gene expression, but both Blencowe and Chris Burge,,, found that gene expression is relatively conserved among species. On the other hand, the papers show that most alternative splicing events differ widely between even closely related species. “The alternative splicing patterns are very different even between humans and chimpanzees,” said Blencowe.,,, http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view%2FarticleNo%2F33782%2Ftitle%2FEvolution-by-Splicing%2F
Besides 'species specific' alternative splicing, here is another exciting recent finding:
Unexpected features of the dark proteome – Oct. 2015 We surveyed the “dark” proteome–that is, regions of proteins never observed by experimental structure determination and inaccessible to homology modeling. For 546,000 Swiss-Prot proteins, we found that 44–54% of the proteome in eukaryotes and viruses was dark, compared with only ~14% in archaea and bacteria. Surprisingly, most of the dark proteome could not be accounted for by conventional explanations, such as intrinsic disorder or transmembrane regions. Nearly half of the dark proteome comprised dark proteins, in which the entire sequence lacked similarity to any known structure. Dark proteins fulfill a wide variety of functions, http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/11/16/1508380112
Thus all in all, the classical Theist is sitting pretty well as far as the overall pattern of evidence is concerned, and those who hold to common ancestry have the far weaker hand as far as the overall pattern of evidence in concerned. i.e. The only place common ancestry is confirmed is in their imagination!bornagain77
June 11, 2016
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Dr Gauger Thank you for articulating this in a manner I could not. I agree with your position and have come to my own conclusions on the matter after analysis of the data. The evidence, while there is some, is not strong enough to indicate common descent is the real deal. Thank you.Andre
June 10, 2016
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There is still such a dichotomy in this discussion. Design or descent. One or the other. Let me demonstrate that descent does stand in opposition to design. Let me just say that I come at this from the framework of a software developer. One tool that we use in the software industry are update patches. You see these things all the time, you know, "Windows needs to install important security updates". Sometimes these "security updates" will be new versions of whole executable programs. These programs will be merely edits from the original, and a recompile. But the entire program is transmitted in the "patch". This is an example of common design. A whole new fresh program, even if the underlying "source code" was a modification of the original. Sometimes, however, rather than send a whole new executable, the patching program will be given instructions like: At offset 123 in executable xyz.exe replace 100 bytes with this sequence: ft8iullwe8y sglvshe This is common descent. The original executable persists, but it was changed in situ. It is quite difficult to tell the difference between these two methods. If you can see the stream of data, it may be easy. But analyzing after the fact, it can be very difficult. (Not impossible in the real world, as the new .exe will have a different location on the hard drive, etc., but not easy.) So the question is, are there any clues left in the data of the DNA that indicate whether the designer is using a patch method (at this offset, insert this data) or a recompile method to implement modifications.bFast
June 10, 2016
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ThickPyton:
Here are the alignments you were questioning in the original article:
The question is about the evidence for synteny. You've offered none. What evidence for synteny do you have to offer that does not beg the question? Do your best. Please.Mung
June 10, 2016
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Hi Ann, Here are the alignments you were questioning in the original article: https://roohif.wordpress.com/2016/06/11/where-did-that-guy-get-his-data-from/ThickPython
June 10, 2016
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bill cole @5:
Lets discover together what the evidence is really telling us.
The scientific evidence? Because I'd really like to know the Biblical evidence against the proposition that chickens and porcupines share a common ancestor. Were both chickens and porcupines on the ark? How do you decide what "kind" a chicken belongs to and what "kind" a porcupine belongs to? How do you decide which "kinds" survived the flood?Mung
June 10, 2016
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