Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Expert, Smexpert

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

IN A RECENT THREAD VJTORLEY WRITES:

Here’s a question for everyone: when is it rational NOT to believe an expert? That’s a difficult one. The following is a (by no means exhaustive) list of “warning signs” which indicate that what an expert says may be open to legitimate doubt:

(1) The question in dispute relates to a single discipline, in which the known facts are dwarfed by the unknowns, as much remains to be discovered. In that case, even if the expert knows a LOT more than you do, he/she is about as much in the dark as you are.
(Here’s a concrete mathematical illustration: if you know 0.01% of everything that could be known in the relevant field, and the expert knows 100 times more than you do, that’s still only 1%, which means that he/she is 99% in the dark, while you are 99.99% in the dark. That’s not much of a difference.)

(2) The question in dispute relates to a single discipline, in which the relevant uncertainties have not been adequately quantified.

(3) The question in dispute relates to a single discipline, in which the predictions made by the dominant scientific model are based on mechanisms whose causal adequacy to generate the effects predicted has not been established – in other words, where the capacity or efficacy of the mechanisms has not been adequately quantified.

(4) The expert makes a claim which strikes you as prima facie outrageously implausible, but is unable to demonstrate that the dominant scientific model upon which he/she relies is adequate to support that claim – in other words, the expert can’t prove to you that his/her model is at least capable of getting you from X to Y.

(5) The question in dispute relates to a single discipline, in which the predictions made by the dominant scientific model are highly sensitive to the initial assumptions which are input, so that a tiny revision in these assumptions dramatically alters the predictions made by the model.

(6) The question in dispute relates to a single discipline, in which the predictions appear to accord well with the data, but the mechanics of the phenomenon itself are poorly understood, so that the currently accepted model, while plausible, is not necessarily the only possible way of explaining the phenomenon – in other words, another model may supplant it in the future.

(7) The question in dispute relates to multiple disciplines, in several of which you have a limited degree of expertise, whereas the expert you are listening to has a great deal of expertise in just ONE of these disciplines.

(8) The expert in question has a track record of making bad judgements on other subjects with which you are familiar, and most of these judgements tend to betray a common cognitive blind-spot.

(9) The expert in question is very dogmatic about his/her claim, even though other experts in the same field have contrary opinions, or are considerably less certain about the claim.

(10) The claim itself appears to be ideologically motivated to some degree – i.e. it is accompanied by snide put-downs of alternative world-views which are held by many people, but not by the expert.

(11) The expert has been financially rewarded or has obtained fame or promotion by promoting his/her claim, but would not have been so rewarded had he/she promoted a contrary claim.

(12) The expert’s claim is asserted hotly and with great vehemence, accompanied by moral indignation and/or contempt towards those who question or reject the claim.

Can anyone think of any other warning signs? If so, please feel free to add to the list.

As an exercise, readers might like to check the boxes for neo-Darwinian evolution (as opposed to common descent) and the hypothesis of dangerous anthropogenic global warming.

Regarding global warming, I think it’s best to be prepared. Personally, I’m skeptical that anthropogenic global warming is likely to be dangerous on a global scale over the next 100 years. But of course, I could be completely wrong. The good news is that even if anthropogenic global warming does pose a real threat to the biosphere, we have a feasible action plan that won’t cost the earth, that won’t line the pockets of the bureaucrats, and that will solve all our energy problems:

Sustainable Nuclear Power by Professor Barry Brook.

The following articles show (I hope) why it remains rational to doubt the claim that anthropogenic global warming is likely to be dangerous in the foreseeable future.

Why I am a Global Warming Skeptic by Dr. Doug Hoffman.

The Crumbling Pillars of Climate Change by Dr. Doug Hoffman.

The Grand View: Four Billion Years of Climate Change by Dr. Doug Hoffman.

Could Human CO2 Emissions Cause Another PETM? by Dr. Doug Hoffman.

A Demonstration that Global Warming Predictions are Based More On Faith than On Science by Dr. Roy Spencer.

Connecting the Dots: Theoretical and Observational Evidence for Negative Cloud Feedbacks by Dr. Roy Spencer and Dr. William Braswell.

Global Warming Skepticism 101 by Dr. Roy Spencer.

A Climate of Belief by Dr. Patrick Frank

Comments
---Aleta: "Well no, you haven’t provided any reasons. You’ve just declared that “Evolutionary biologists do not “have” nor can they “display” any knowledge concerning their main claim about naturalistic forces generating macro evolution.” Assertions like that aren’t “reasons.” May the gift of rationality someday find its way into your mind. The REASON, which I stated at least five times, and which you ignored eact time, is that evolutionary biologists cannot support their claim that naturalistic forces can explain all of life.StephenB
April 8, 2010
April
04
Apr
8
08
2010
06:54 AM
6
06
54
AM
PDT
jerry @70,
Only honest people do and to be anti ID, one has to be dishonest.
I am under-educated, (grade 10), at times stubborn, and many times wrong. What I am not, is dishonest.Toronto
April 8, 2010
April
04
Apr
8
08
2010
05:55 AM
5
05
55
AM
PDT
Wow - "No one who comes here as anti ID has ever changed their opinion during a debate. Only honest people do and to be anti ID, one has to be dishonest." From the OP: "(12) The expert’s claim is asserted hotly and with great vehemence, accompanied by moral indignation and/or contempt towards those who question or reject the claim." 'Nuf said.Aleta
April 8, 2010
April
04
Apr
8
08
2010
05:53 AM
5
05
53
AM
PDT
"My answer to you is the same as my answer to Stephen: you don’t think it’s coherent, but what weight does your opinion have in comparison to the experts? Why should anyone take your opinion seriously but not take the consensus opinion of all those experts seriously?" The absurdity of this statement is that neither you or anyone else can point to the arguments that experts make other than assertions. If the ID people took such an approach as this, they would be laughed out of any forum. I point to books that the so called experts have written and which are considered comprehensive and say they do not contain a coherent argument. All you or anyone else would have to do is prove me wrong. So the ID people ask, why cannot this not be done. Your only answer is the experts say it is so but you cannot show why they say this. You have been providing the best defense of ID that we could hope for. You should also realize that we have little interest about you in the sense that we want you to understand our position. We know you understand our position. No one who comes here as anti ID has ever changed their opinion during a debate. Only honest people do and to be anti ID, one has to be dishonest. The people of interest are those out there that honestly want to understand the issue. They do not comment at first with an anti ID point of view but ask questions or they may never comment but just read to get information. You have been a foil to present our arguments and who when pushed comes to shove makes such inane and weak arguments that you end up as a poster child for ID. For that we thank you. You will end up if you stay here occasionally making irrelevant comments about peripheral things just to show your anti ID credentials but never contributing anything of substance. Because you cannot. No anti ID person can because they do not engage in an honest way. For an example of another stupid anti ID set of comments just follow whatever Faded Glory says. He thinks he is scoring points by pointing out that intelligence is not a mechanism. But his comments are nearly always as irrelevant as yours have been.jerry
April 8, 2010
April
04
Apr
8
08
2010
05:36 AM
5
05
36
AM
PDT
StephenB, In this thread, you are not providing me a good reason to change to your side. You are trying to get me to defend my brand, (evolution), instead of selling me yours, (ID). If I walked on to a Ford dealer's lot and he insisted I defend my decision for buying Chevies, he's going to lose a sale. You are trying to close the sale by arguing like a defense attorney instead of a salesman. Get me to switch sides by telling me what's good about your product. Why should I accept ID?Toronto
April 8, 2010
April
04
Apr
8
08
2010
05:20 AM
5
05
20
AM
PDT
StephenB writes, "So, when I provide reasons why this is, indeed, one of those times that the majority cannot be trusted,..." Well no, you haven't provided any reasons. You've just declared that "Evolutionary biologists do not “have” nor can they “display” any knowledge concerning their main claim about naturalistic forces generating macro evolution." Assertions like that aren't "reasons." The focus of my comments has not been discussing the statement "the experts are wrong," which is an opinion you are welcome to have, but rather the silly statement that "they are not experts because I think they're wrong."Aleta
April 8, 2010
April
04
Apr
8
08
2010
04:43 AM
4
04
43
AM
PDT
morgentau, In my view neither intelligence nor design are mechanisms. If you would ask 'by what mechanism did Michelangelo decorate the ceiling of the Sixtine chapel' and the guide replies 'by using his intelligence' or 'by design', would you consider your question adequately answered? I for sure would not. It may be true, but it doesn't answer the question. So I will repeat my question: What is your alternative for common descent? What is your proposed mechanism for that alternative? Has that mechanism been observed in nature? fGfaded_Glory
April 8, 2010
April
04
Apr
8
08
2010
04:13 AM
4
04
13
AM
PDT
---Aleta: "(By the way, I found it pretty ironic back in 33 when StephenB, in two successive sentences, called appealing to authorities an elitist tactic and then appealed to the authority of the1000 people on the DI’s dissent from Darwinism list.)" Another point spectacularly missed. The allusion to 1000 dissenters was not an argument from authority but rather a response to your statement that I was asking anyone to believe me on the strength of my word alone. If only Darwinists could follow the trajectory of their own questions. Better yet, if only they would answer questions put to them from other side, such as, "Can you provide one example of a Darwinist who can defend the proposition that naturalistic forces can generate all of life?"StephenB
April 7, 2010
April
04
Apr
7
07
2010
09:39 PM
9
09
39
PM
PDT
---Aleta: "So, in syllogistic form, the fact that all scientific progress starts with a minority position does not imply that all minority positions lead to scientific progress." No one said that it did. What is it with all of these strawmen? What I said was that since the minority position is responsible for all progress, especially at the very time the majority disapproves of progress, the majority position cannot always be trusted. So, when I provide reasons why this is, indeed, one of those times that the majority cannot be trusted, it is an exceedingly silly response to ignore those reasons on the grounds that the majority can be trusted.StephenB
April 7, 2010
April
04
Apr
7
07
2010
09:20 PM
9
09
20
PM
PDT
A day in the life of a UD blogger: [A] StephenB states that evolutionary biologists are not authorities on the subject of evolution because they cannot cannot justify their position that naturalistic forces explain all of life. [B] Aleta claims that StephenB is wrong. [C] StephenB asks Aleta to show where he is wrong by providing just one example of an evolutionary biologist who can justify his claim. [D] Aleta refuses to show where StephenB is wrong but explains that StephenB must be wrong because evolutionary biologists are authorities on the subject of evolution. This is what I must deal with regularly folks!StephenB
April 7, 2010
April
04
Apr
7
07
2010
08:51 PM
8
08
51
PM
PDT
RE 62 "In this case, and many others, appealing to authorities (i.e., experts) is not a fallacy – it’s the reasonable thing to do, and we all do it all the time" Unfortunately "this case" is an appeal to authority unless you can supply the evidence that indeed evolutionary biologists CAN support their claims that naturalistic processes can explain all of life. Ya see unless you can, to appeal to the experts as the evidence is a fallacy. Vividvividbleau
April 7, 2010
April
04
Apr
7
07
2010
08:13 PM
8
08
13
PM
PDT
Hi Vivid. In this case, and many others, appealing to authorities (i.e., experts) is not a fallacy - it's the reasonable thing to do, and we all do it all the time. I consulted the experts when I needed to get my house re-roofed last summer, I consulted the surgeon this week when my mother was in the hospital for a bowel obstruction, I consult my local mechanic when my car is making funny noises, and so on. No one would deride me for "appealing to authorities" if I told you that my decisions about what to believe in those situations was best was based on the generalized conclusions of those experts. In all these situations there are people have considerable factual knowledge and informed understandings, and I So, yes, I am "appealing to authorities", because I think that in all these situations where there are people with considerable factual knowledge and informed understandings, they are in the best position to explain things to me, and that seems very much like the reasonable thing to do. The alternative - knowing enough about everything that I can make all my decisions without listening to any experts - is impossible. We should be grateful that we have experts, and unless we also are expert enough in a field, we should at least start our understanding with what the experts say. (By the way, I found it pretty ironic back in 33 when StephenB, in two successive sentences, called appealing to authorities an elitist tactic and then appealed to the authority of the1000 people on the DI's dissent from Darwinism list.)Aleta
April 7, 2010
April
04
Apr
7
07
2010
07:38 PM
7
07
38
PM
PDT
"My answer to you is the same as my answer to Stephen: you don’t think it’s coherent, but what weight does your opinion have in comparison to the experts?" Well you obviously do not share in their opinions but it does not serve you well to engage in fallacious arguments. Rather than make an appeal to authority ( a fallacy)share with us why we should change our opinions or better yet give the evidence that refutes Stephen's claim that "Evolutionary biologists cannot support their claims that naturalistic processes can explain all of life.] " On what basis do you cling to your opinion that Stephens claim is false, and please do so with out making an appeal to authority. Vividvividbleau
April 7, 2010
April
04
Apr
7
07
2010
07:12 PM
7
07
12
PM
PDT
My answer to you is the same as my answer to Stephen: you don't think it's coherent, but what weight does your opinion have in comparison to the experts? Why should anyone take your opinion seriously but not take the consensus opinion of all those experts seriously? That is the question at issue here, not your personal lack of belief.Aleta
April 7, 2010
April
04
Apr
7
07
2010
06:53 PM
6
06
53
PM
PDT
"the faculty in the various departments of the world’s 100 most prestigious universities in fields related to biology, included paleontology, genetics, ecology, geology, etc" But not one of these people can provide a coherent defense of naturalistic evolution. If Dawkins and Coyne cannot do it, why does anyone think these people could. If one had a coherent argument it would be adopted by everyone. But there is only radio silence.jerry
April 7, 2010
April
04
Apr
7
07
2010
06:44 PM
6
06
44
PM
PDT
Correction, paragraph 5 in 57 above: "Sure, much scientific progress starts out with someone taking a minority position, and doing the work that helps eventually convince enough people that we have a new majority consensus.Aleta
April 7, 2010
April
04
Apr
7
07
2010
06:37 PM
6
06
37
PM
PDT
Stephen, I would never bother to disagree with you simply for the sake of disagreement. First: that would be a waste of my time, and second, there are way too many things that I do disagree with you about for me to create extraneous disagreements. The subject of this thread is experts. As I said above at #24, virtually all of us accept the general conclusions of the experts in many fields. However, if you wanted to deny that the heavier elements were not made in stars that later exploded, or that the liver processed toxins in the body, or that Antarctica was once adjacent to Australia, I would not be able to present all the evidence that would convince you even though I am sure of those things. I trust that the scientific process, which has involved countless people digging deeply into the original data and debating the meaning and cause of that data, has given us the best explanations we have at this time, and therefore I trust the experts who describe those explanations. Now you give some reasons why we perhaps shouldn't trust the experts. "All true progress in science comes from the original thinkers, better known as the minority, and not from the uncreative, dutiful little worker bees, better known as the majority." Skipping right over your gratuitous insult of thousands of people who have helped provide us with the wonders of science, I'm reminded of the old saying, "they laughed at Einstein, but they laughed at Bozo the Clown, too." Sure, much scientific progress starts out with someone taking a minority position, and doing the work that helps eventually convince enough people that we have a new minority consensus. But for every such minority position that eventually has an impact, there are many more minority positions which stay minority positions until they just fade away because they are wrong. So, in syllogistic form, the fact that all scientific progress starts with a minority position does not imply that all minority positions lead to scientific progress. So if the minority position of ID manages to have an impact and become a part of mainstream science, I will embrace it, but there is no reason at all to embrace ID just because it is a minority position. So I'll stick with believing that mainstream science is as right as we can be right now - I'm willing to trust the mainstream experts on the nature of evolution. (And to avoid the silly argument about the meaning of expert, I'll be specific: the faculty in the various departments of the world's 100 most prestigious universities in fields related to biology, included paleontology, genetics, ecology, geology, etc.)Aleta
April 7, 2010
April
04
Apr
7
07
2010
06:28 PM
6
06
28
PM
PDT
---Aleta: "No, it is your opinion." [Evolutionary biologists cannot support their claims that naturalistic processes can explain all of life.] I have been around long enough to issue the challenge many times on this site and I have witnessed countless others making that same challenge. Also, I have read enough of the relevant literature to know that no one has ever succesfully taken it up, though one or two "non-experts" have conceived imaginary schemes which they quickly discarded when subjected to a modicum of scrutiny. So, I don't think it is too bold of me to declare as fact that they cannot meet the challenge. Is it your opinion that they can support their claims or are you simply disagreeing with me for the sake of disagreement?StephenB
April 7, 2010
April
04
Apr
7
07
2010
03:37 PM
3
03
37
PM
PDT
Thanks for the clear answer to that question. As with Jerry, I appreciate knowing what is and isn't at issue in this regard.Aleta
April 7, 2010
April
04
Apr
7
07
2010
03:22 PM
3
03
22
PM
PDT
---Aleta: And I’d be interested in Stephen’s answer to this question, and anyone else who would like to chime in [common descent]. I think ancestral common descent is likely true and that universal common descent is likely not true, but well within the realm of possibility. On the other hand, I hold that it is not within the realm of anything reasonably possible that naturalistic forces could explain universal common descent. Thus, any theory that claims otherwise is not only a bad theory but an unreasonable theory.StephenB
April 7, 2010
April
04
Apr
7
07
2010
03:18 PM
3
03
18
PM
PDT
Stephen writes, "No, I said they are not truly experts because they cannot support their claims, which they cannot. That is not simply my opinion. That is a fact." No, it is your opinion. Also, Stephen writes, "Also, I presented three arguments refuting your notion than the Darwinst argument [and your argument] from authority doesn’t work. You have yet to respond to any of them. Thus, I must conclude that you have no response. Having completely and conveniently ignored them, you may have lost track, so if you need a summary, just let me know." No I have not forgotten them Also, just because I haven't responded to them doesn't mean you can conclude that I have no response. My time is limited, as is everyone's, and in these threads people make many more points than any one can have time for, so each of us chooses which issues are worth pursuing. So I am choosing to focus on one topic first: that you, just a person on the internet, as I am, claim to declare that the world's experts in biology (defined by any reasonable sense of the word) are not really experts because you happen to disagree about a major consensus conclusion they have reached. I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with the consensus view of the experts, but I do think it is fairly silly - that really is the word that applies, I think, to be playing these semantics games.Aleta
April 7, 2010
April
04
Apr
7
07
2010
03:14 PM
3
03
14
PM
PDT
---Aleta: "No, you said they were not experts because you don’t think they can support those views, which is entirely different." No, I said they are not truly experts because they cannot support their claims, which they cannot. That is not simply my opinion. That is a fact. If you disagree, provide even one example [or cite someone else who can provide an example] of a Darwinist showing that their mechanism can do what it claims it can do. Also, I presented three arguments refuting your notion than the Darwinst argument [and your argument] from authority doesn't work. You have yet to respond to any of them. Thus, I must conclude that you have no response. Having completely and conveniently ignored them, you may have lost track, so if you need a summary, just let me know.StephenB
April 7, 2010
April
04
Apr
7
07
2010
02:34 PM
2
02
34
PM
PDT
49 Clive Hayden vjtorley It depends. If the bad hypothesis explains and predicts some of the data then it is better than having no hypothesis, although a hypothesis can explain too much and be close to useless. Sure God may have done it but the real question for me is how did he do it. For example we know that general relativity is "wrong" as it is in conflict with quantum mechanics but for now we have nothing better. In debugging programs we often make a hypothesis and in trying to prove or disprove that hypothesis we often stumble across the correct cause of the bug. With no hypothesis we have no where to start looking. Believe me when the size of the program in 100,000 lines of more having no hypothesis is not a good situation to be in. Dave Wgingoro
April 7, 2010
April
04
Apr
7
07
2010
12:46 PM
12
12
46
PM
PDT
But we do have an hypothesis -- design. So we do not need to choose between a bad hypothesis and no hypothesis. Also design is a mechanism. Just because we do not know how design works does not mean we do not have a mechanism. It is like the automobile. A man says "How did that automobile come to be that way?" and we say "it was designed," and that is true. If a man "was it made by robots or humans" we may not know the answer. But knowing robots or humans is like knowing the mechanism of the mechanism, not the mechanism.Morgentau
April 7, 2010
April
04
Apr
7
07
2010
12:37 PM
12
12
37
PM
PDT
vjtorley,
I profoundly disagree with the slavish mindset that says, “Any hypothesis – even a bad hypothesis – is better than no hypothesis at all.” No. A bad hypothesis is still a bad hypothesis, and if we suspect a hypothesis is bad, we should reject it, regardless of whether there are alternatives available.
Amen to that.Clive Hayden
April 7, 2010
April
04
Apr
7
07
2010
12:06 PM
12
12
06
PM
PDT
Thanks - that makes sense. I known theistic evolutionists who argue, and rightfully so in my opinion, that the term "theistic evolutionist" put the emphasis in the wrong place, and who prefer evolutionary creationist. Thanks for explaining. And it definitely wasn't me that wrote "an expert is someone who believes in and follows the majority opinion.” I agree for the most part with how you described an expert. I particularly like your point that even if an expert does not agree with the consensus he understands it in depth.Aleta
April 7, 2010
April
04
Apr
7
07
2010
11:47 AM
11
11
47
AM
PDT
41 Aleta Pardon my not knowing, but what is an EC? EC == Evolutionary Creationist or the old term is Theistic Evolutionist. Someone wrote:"An expert is someone who believes in and follows the majority opinion." No what you are describing is someone who adopts the consensus position. IMO an expert is someone who is highly knowledgeable in a particular area and who seriously engages critics of their work or does something like shipping a working product that incorporates and demonstrates their knowledge. An expert may or may not adopt the consensus position but he does understand it in depth. Dave Wgingoro
April 7, 2010
April
04
Apr
7
07
2010
11:16 AM
11
11
16
AM
PDT
No, you said they were not experts because you don't think they can support those views, which is entirely different. I have no reason at all to consider you knowledgeable on these issues, much less an expert, so your belief that their views are not supported is relatively inconsequential.Aleta
April 7, 2010
April
04
Apr
7
07
2010
10:31 AM
10
10
31
AM
PDT
---"Aleta: "And you’re still playing with words, Stephen. Of course you took the definition right out of the dictionary." Yes, I defined my terms. If only you would do the same. The theme of the thread is this: When is it rational to dispute the claims of an "expert?" Naturally, it makes sense to define the word under those circumstances. Darwinists do not like definitions because it forces them to focus on the subject matter without moving goal posts in the middle of a discussion. ---"You then unilaterally declared that since you didn’t believe the views of those the world considers experts, they weren’t really experts." No, I said they were not experts because they cannot SUPPORT those views, which means that they obviously do not possess the knowledge and skill that experts need in order to be called experts. If you think differently, that is, if you think they can provide that support, all you have to do is produce evidence of that fact. This, by the way, is why ID advocates define their terms and Darwinists refuse to undergo that same discipline. According to the official meaning of the word, Darwinists are not experts since they assert as fact that their mechanism can do something that it cannot do. Not only do they not have the necessary knowledge and skill required by the term "expert," they dogmatically remain in their ignorance, misinterpreting their adversaries' arguments and building an institutional wall around themselves for the sole purpose of preserving their ignorance. Experts don't do that. Since you have not defined the term expert for yourself, I will do it for you. Aleta: An expert is someone who believes in and follows the majority opinion. [If you want to improve on your definition, feel free.] Meanwhile, I will use my own formulation of your definition until you discipline yourself to do it on your own. ---"Of course there are doubters, but your 1000 signees of the DI’s statement is less than 1% of the comparable group of knowledgeable people – the fact that only such a small minority are doubters is itself strong evidence that the experts are right." Once again, you ignored that answer to that. I explained that science progresses on the shoulders of the creative minority, not from the majority of uncreative worker bees. I also provided a brief history of the failed attempts of the majority to hold on to an obsolete position, and how the minority of insightful scientists rescued them from that obsolescence. I explained further that an argument from authority is not a persuasive argument. Do you always ignore refutations to your arguments and continue on a sleek as ever? Or, do you ever address them?StephenB
April 7, 2010
April
04
Apr
7
07
2010
09:05 AM
9
09
05
AM
PDT
Thank you for your answer. I appreciate the thoroughness and clarity which which you answered.Aleta
April 7, 2010
April
04
Apr
7
07
2010
08:38 AM
8
08
38
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4

Leave a Reply