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We Assume We Are Not in the Matrix Too

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markf asks what observation would falsify ID.  Gpuccio responded that an example of an incredibly improbable digital string that was developed in a stochastic system would tend to falsify ID and gave as an example 500 coins tosses that when interpreted as a code spelled out a meaningful message.  

Not good enough says markf.  “Nothing can falsify ID if you make no assumptions about the designer – because a designer of unspecified powers and motives can produce anything.”  In other words, gpuccio’s example assumes that the designer does not capriciously intervene in the outcome of coin tosses.

Yes, we assume that.  And we also assume that we are not plugged into the Matrix with all of our sense impressions being fed to us by a super-computer.  Give me a break.

Quite by coincidence I was reading Burke tonight and came across this passage that reminded me of markf’s objection:

I do not, my dear Sir, conceive you to be of that sophistical*, captious** spirit, or of that uncandid dullness, as to require, for every general observation or sentiment, an explicit detail of the correctives and exceptions which reason will presume to be included in all the general propositions which come from reasonable men.

*Given to sophistry, i.e., a subtle, tricky, superficially plausible, but generally fallacious method of reasoning.

**apt or designed to ensnare or perplex.

Comments
He certainly stayed on point though,,,, The beauty at the end of the video was that the Christian, Chad, was an Iraqi war vet.bornagain77
October 17, 2010
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He's very aggressive! It's good though. I think atheists for a very long time have been on the offense... Time to turn the tables. I'm starting to feel bad for the atheist though, he's having such a hard time trying to formulate an argument since the Christian has exposed him and his world view. Why does he keep on appealing to the shrodinger equation and his cat? How on earth does that go against the law of non-contradiction?above
October 17, 2010
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above, that guy is almost as good as StephenB, maybe as good.bornagain77
October 17, 2010
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@BA Watching it right now. The Christian is taking the guy to task eh? Notice how the atheist changed tone and demeanor half way through the video when he realized that he was being outplayed. I'm into the second section right now... This is funny stuff.above
October 17, 2010
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StephenB and others, This video of a debate on the law of non-contradiction, between an atheist and a Christian, should be very interesting for you: Presuppositional Apologetics (1 of 5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=056zh7VPxDcbornagain77
October 17, 2010
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Barry, here is how to falsify ID: Set up video cameras in a desert, then watch them record the rocks being moved via wind and earth tremors to spell a message in English. Now here is where it gets interesting: suppose the message was "ID is right, Jerry Coyne. Listen to Dembski you idiot" Would Jerry accept that as a definitive falsification of ID? Would anyone? :-)tribune7
October 17, 2010
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They can state there is no purpose, they just can't do it standing in front of a wallchart enlisting the Genetic Code.Upright BiPed
October 17, 2010
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...Dawkins, Coyne, Monod, etc, etc. It might be easier to list those who speak to the public otherwise.Upright BiPed
October 17, 2010
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@Upright, Well actually, some come out and claim that the is no purpose period. Two exampes off the top of my head are provine with his now infamous "no ultimate purpose in life" quote and peter atkins who calls humans slime crawling on a planet. I'm sure there is a lot more.above
October 17, 2010
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BA, When materialists say there is no meaning in the cosmos, they're describing a cosmos without life.Upright BiPed
October 17, 2010
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UB, well worth the read. Practically every page of the book has a gem to be garnered. (At least for me) I will have to re-read it with a highlighter. :)bornagain77
October 17, 2010
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Thanks BA, I must read this book.Upright BiPed
October 17, 2010
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Here is the Don Johnson quote: In the last ten years, at least 20 different natural information codes were discovered in life, each operating operating to arbitrary conventions (not determined by law or physicality). Examples include protein address codes [Ber08B], acetylation codes [Kni06], RNA codes [Fai07], metabolic codes [Bru07], cytoskeleton codes [Gim08], histone codes [Jen01], and alternative splicing codes [Bar10]. Donald E. Johnson - Programming of Life - pg.51bornagain77
October 17, 2010
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markf, perhaps we should make it more basic for you,,, Do you believe that any digital information resides in life at all? notes: Every Bit Digital DNA’s Programming Really Bugs Some ID Critics - March 2010 Excerpt: In 2003 renowned biologist Leroy Hood and biotech guru David Galas authored a review article in the world’s leading scientific journal, Nature, titled, “The digital code of DNA.” The article explained, “A remarkable feature of the structure is that DNA can accommodate almost any sequence of base pairs—any combination of the bases adenine (A), cytosine (C), guanine (G) and thymine (T)—and, hence any digital message or information.” MIT Professor of Mechanical Engineering Seth Lloyd (no friend of ID) likewise eloquently explains why DNA has a “digital” nature: "It’s been known since the structure of DNA was elucidated that DNA is very digital. There are four possible base pairs per site, two bits per site, three and a half billion sites, seven billion bits of information in the human DNA. There’s a very recognizable digital code of the kind that electrical engineers rediscovered in the 1950s that maps the codes for sequences of DNA onto expressions of proteins." http://www.salvomag.com/new/articles/salvo12/12luskin2.php A comparative approach for the investigation of biological information processing: An examination of the structure and function of computer hard drives and DNA – David J D’Onofrio1, Gary An – Jan. 2010 Excerpt: It is also important to note that attempting to reprogram a cell’s operations by manipulating its components (mutations) is akin to attempting to reprogram a computer by manipulating the bits on the hard drive without fully understanding the context of the operating system. (T)he idea of redirecting cellular behavior by manipulating molecular switches may be fundamentally flawed; that concept is predicated on a simplistic view of cellular computing and control. Rather, (it) may be more fruitful to attempt to manipulate cells by changing their external inputs: in general, the majority of daily functions of a computer are achieved not through reprogramming, but rather the varied inputs the computer receives through its user interface and connections to other machines. http://www.tbiomed.com/content/7/1/3 Splicing Together the Case for Design, Part 2 (of 2) - Fazale Rana - June 2010 Excerpt: Remarkably, the genetic code appears to be highly optimized, further indicating design. Equally astounding is the fact that other codes, such as the histone binding code, transcription factor binding code, the splicing code, and the RNA secondary structure code, overlap the genetic code. Each of these codes plays a special role in gene expression, but they also must work together in a coherent integrated fashion. The existence of multiple overlapping codes also implies the work of a Creator. It would take superior reasoning power to structure the system in such a way that it can simultaneously harbor codes working in conjunction instead of interfering with each other. As I have written elsewhere, the genetic code is in fact optimized to harbor overlapping codes, further evincing the work of a Mind. http://www.reasons.org/splicing-together-case-design-part-2-2 Trifonov (1989), has shown that probably all DNA sequences in the genome encrypt multiple “codes” (up to 12 codes). (Dr. John Sanford; Genetic Entropy 2005) Donald Johnson has mentioned that up to 20 codes have been uncovered in the genome in his new book 'Programming of Life". "A code system is always the result of a mental process (it requires an intelligent origin or inventor). It should be emphasized that matter as such is unable to generate any code. All experiences indicate that a thinking being voluntarily exercising his own free will, cognition, and creativity, is required. ,,,there is no known law of nature and no known sequence of events which can cause information to originate by itself in matter. Werner Gitt 1997 In The Beginning Was Information pp. 64-67, 79, 107." (The retired Dr Gitt was a director and professor at the German Federal Institute of Physics and Technology (Physikalisch-Technische Bundesanstalt, Braunschweig), the Head of the Department of Information Technology.) The DNA Code - Solid Scientific Proof Of Intelligent Design - Perry Marshall - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4060532 Biophysicist Hubert Yockey determined that natural selection would have to explore 1.40 x 10^70 different genetic codes to discover the optimal universal genetic code that is found in nature. The maximum amount of time available for it to originate is 6.3 x 10^15 seconds. Natural selection would have to evaluate roughly 10^55 codes per second to find the one that is optimal. Put simply, natural selection lacks the time necessary to find the optimal universal genetic code we find in nature. (Fazale Rana, -The Cell's Design - 2008 - page 177) “Because of Shannon channel capacity that previous (first) codon alphabet had to be at least as complex as the current codon alphabet (DNA code), otherwise transferring the information from the simpler alphabet into the current alphabet would have been mathematically impossible” Donald E. Johnson – Bioinformatics: The Information in Life Human DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software we've ever created. Bill Gates, The Road Ahead, 1996, p. 188 Bill Gates, in recognizing the superiority found in Genetic Coding, compared to the best computer coding we now have, has now funded research into this area: Welcome to CoSBi - (Computational and Systems Biology) Excerpt: Biological systems are the most parallel systems ever studied and we hope to use our better understanding of how living systems handle information to design new computational paradigms, programming languages and software development environments. The net result would be the design and implementation of better applications firmly grounded on new computational, massively parallel paradigms in many different areas. http://www.cosbi.eu/index.php/component/content/article/171 Judge Rules DNA is Unique (and not patentable) Because it Carries Functional Information - March 2010 “Today the idea that DNA carries genetic information in its long chain of nucleotides is so fundamental to biological thought that it is sometimes difficult to realize the enormous intellectual gap that it filled. . . . DNA is relatively inert chemically.” https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/judge-rules-dna-is-unique-because-it-carries-information/ Stephen C. Meyer - Signature In The Cell: "DNA functions like a software program," "We know from experience that software comes from programmers. Information--whether inscribed in hieroglyphics, written in a book or encoded in a radio signal--always arises from an intelligent source. So the discovery of digital code in DNA provides evidence that the information in DNA also had an intelligent source." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/07/leading_advocate_of_intelligen.htmlbornagain77
October 17, 2010
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2) Under some of the interpretations of dFSCI it is limited to things that are designed or living things.
dFSCI is limited to designed objects and living things. That limitation is an observation made without a single example of contrary evidence. That is exactly the point. You say this is no warrant for thinking that living things must then be designed. But your conclusion is divorced from the evidence, mark, demonstrated by your own words. Otherwise, you would write "dFSCI is limited to design, living things, and chance emergence." You betray a purely ideological bias. If dFSCI is limited to design and living things (but not chance emergence) then there sure as hell isn't any reason to think it came about by chance emergence. On what grounds would one make that case? - - - - - Moreover, the very fact of dFSCI has its corollary streams of evidence itself. a) dFSCI is recorded information. How does any information come into existence? Only by the process of perception. Can matter, by way of chance, percieve itself? b) dFSCI has to be recorded by some means. It is recorded by the use of symbols. How do symbols come into existence? Only by the faculty of a concsiouness. Can matter create symbols, by means of chance? c) dFSCI must be recorded by symbols, but symbols must have meaning assigned to them in order to function as symbols. How is meaning assigned? Only through the process of foresight. Can matter display foresight, by means of chance? - - - - - - You not only ignore that the only causal force known to be able to create dFSCI is the act of design, but you ignore and obfuscate the corollary evidence as well (which is also without a single example of contrary evidence).Upright BiPed
October 17, 2010
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My list is not just a sampling of the bahavoiral aspects of the response - it IS the response.Upright BiPed
October 17, 2010
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above: By the way, I suppose that UB's post #9 is fairly accurate. I have chosen to discuss aminly the cognitive aspects, just to remain calm. But the behavioural aspects of the confrontation are really ugly.gpuccio
October 17, 2010
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above: this point has been raised many times, by single researchers (see for instance Abel and Trevors, but even a few darwinist researchers are well aware of it), and recently essentially by the ID movement. The response of academy is to deny it and to fight ID with all possible means. Mark's response here is a good example of a reasonable attitude in a reasonable darwinists (after long personal and respectful confrontations here). In no way it represents a standard. I believe that my definition of dFSCI is completely empirical and applicable to facts. Mark has reservations about that, and he is perfectly entitled to keep them. And it is true that my definition (which I believe is essentially shared by many here) is for some aspects different from Dembski's last paper about specification. The main difference is that I (and many others) are satisfied with a functional specification. In my definition, that specification requires a conscious judgment and a formal definition from some observer in each case. That is a completely acceptable empirical procedure. If you are interested, we can go into the details of that. The fact is, if you apply that definition (dFSCI) to digital strings, such a property is found abundantly in human designed things and in biological objects, and nowhere else. Human designed things are designed by definition. Biological objects are, I believe, the object of our discussions. If we were certain that they were not designed (or that they were designed) why would we lose our time here? So, we in ID infer design as the best explanation for biological information on the basis of the above data. It is, as I have stated many times, an inference by analogy: analogy to human design. But please remember that, as I have discussed in my recent posts here and in the previous thread, the affirmation of dFSCI in biological strings requires as a prerequisite that the official darwinian explanation for that information (RV + NS) is not credible, indeed completely false. That is what ID believes and demonstrates. Darwinists don't agree, but anyone must judge for himself which position is reasonable and which is not.gpuccio
October 17, 2010
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above You ask: "Can anyone show me an instance where dFSCI was created without design?" I cannot speak for other "Darwinists" but here is my answer. 1) It is not clear to me what dFSCI is. Gpuccio and I have been over this many, many times. He finds it extremely simple. I find it ambiguous (among many other things Gpuccio's own definition is in conflict with William Dembski's definition of CSI). I have tried to document some of my concerns on my blog. 2) Under some of the interpretations of dFSCI it is limited to things that are designed or living things. 3) However, there is no convincing case that living things are designed - so they are an example of dFSCI that was not designed (to the extent that we know that anything was not designed - see Barry's post)markf
October 17, 2010
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above, "Has this issue not been raised within the fields of biology? In the academy? How do darwinists respond to this?" - - - - - 1) They attack the motives of those who bring it up. 2) They quarrel over the definitions of the terms until the conversation grinds to a halt (then they go back to using those exact terms to speak among themselves). 3) They write attack articles in the popular press, reminding the cattle of the consensus. 4) They hurl insults. 5) They fondle the idea of stereochemistry, ignoing that stereochemistry would not place one nucleotide after the other. 6) They displace the argument with a fondness for the RNA world hypothesis, forgetting the fact that such a hypothesis just pushes the information problem out of the way (instead of answering it), and they haphazardly ignore that the hypothesis has the largest set of intractable biochemical hurdles known to science. 7) They talk about the Crusades. They tell us that Germany was a Christian nation, and talk about silliness of talking donkeys. 8) They insulate themselves by reminding the faithful that origins has nothing to do with evolution, and evolution is a fact. ...sorry, I can't go on.Upright BiPed
October 17, 2010
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Gpuccio Has this issue not been raised within the fields of biology? In the academy? How do darwinists respond to this?above
October 17, 2010
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above: the answer is simple: no.gpuccio
October 17, 2010
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Doesn't it seem, given the known statistical observations regarding the chance occurance of a code that writes a story more complicated than a Victorian novel (in the known universe, not including the speculated "Multiverse" of science fiction lore, that an objective player would tell us, "The scientific evidence is: there's simply no means whereby this code could arise by the known laws of chance?" I'm betting the only reason there's a controversy over design is due to the implications of that concept - this has nothing to do with science. If this issue was about a lottery, the lottery described would be illegal because no one could win.arkady967
October 17, 2010
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above, welcome to the club. IDists on UD have been asking that particular question of Darwinists for years,,, for just one example of dFSCI being produced 'naturally' by Darwinian processes. With all examples put forth by them being mercilessly and rigorously shot down: The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity: David L. Abel - Null Hypothesis For Information Generation - 2009 To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it: "Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration." A single exception of non trivial, unaided spontaneous optimization of formal function by truly natural process would falsify this null hypothesis. http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/pdf Can We Falsify Any Of The Following Null Hypothesis (For Information Generation) 1) Mathematical Logic 2) Algorithmic Optimization 3) Cybernetic Programming 4) Computational Halting 5) Integrated Circuits 6) Organization (e.g. homeostatic optimization far from equilibrium) 7) Material Symbol Systems (e.g. genetics) 8) Any Goal Oriented bona fide system 9) Language 10) Formal function of any kind 11) Utilitarian work http://mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/ag Stephen C. Meyer - The Scientific Basis For Intelligent Design - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4104651/ --------- Keeping in line with the Matrix theme,,, I thought this fight scene in Matrix is reminiscent Dembski and Marks successful falsification evolutionary algorithms: Neo (Dembski & Marks) vs. Agent Smith (Evolutionary Algorithms) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VhfPN_6fcA LIFE’S CONSERVATION LAW - William Dembski - Robert Marks - Pg. 13 Excerpt: Simulations such as Dawkins’s WEASEL, Adami’s AVIDA, Ray’s Tierra, and Schneider’s ev appear to support Darwinian evolution, but only for lack of clear accounting practices that track the information smuggled into them.,,, Information does not magically materialize. It can be created by intelligence or it can be shunted around by natural forces. But natural forces, and Darwinian processes in particular, do not create information. Active information enables us to see why this is the case. http://evoinfo.org/publications/lifes-conservation-law/bornagain77
October 17, 2010
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Since the discussion moved here I would like to ask my question again. Can anyone show me an instance where dFSCI was created without design? I'm not interested in arguing for or against. I'm simply curious to see if there is such an example for I have busted my head to find one and cannot...above
October 17, 2010
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Actually Mr. Arrington, after seeing so many neo-Darwinists completely deny the reality of the overwhelming evidence against neo-Darwinism, and continuing to cling to wildly unsubstantiated delusions for neo-Darwinism, though patiently shown otherwise, I have often thought that neo-Darwinists live in the 'Matrix' of materialism, simply because the delusion of materialism is preferable over the 'uncomfortable' prospect for them to admit the reality of our accountability to God: The Matrix "The choice of the the truth" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhymzx6ovfQbornagain77
October 17, 2010
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Gpuccio Thanks. I will respond to your interesting post in detail when I have time. Right now I just want to point out that both you and Barry now accept that you have to make assumptions about the designer in order to falsify ID. You may find these assumptions obvious - but it seems to me an important principle has been establised. Ever since I can remember every ID person I have debated has asserted that the design inference is independent of any knowledge or assumptions about the designer. As I explained in another comment I personally find it a lot more plausible that something has the ability and motivation to influence 500 coin tosses to spell out a message than that something has ability and motivation to influence the whole universe to support life. But this may simply be a matter of our prior beliefs.markf
October 17, 2010
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Mark: It seems that I have difficulties in logging on the previous thread, so I answer you on this, related one. You ask: So what are those purposes and limitations? Well, they have to be inferred from what we know of the history of life, and any further improvement of our knowledge will be able to make our inferences more detailed. I have discussed this topic many times (maybe not with you). I have tried to present a few hypotheses, which appear reasonable to me. I will try to sum them up here: 1) The purpose of the design we observe in life seems to be first of all to allow life itself, and second to evolve it towards greater complexity so that it may express new and differet functions. The highest function expressed by life at present could well be consciousness and intelligence, including the faculty to produce CSI and to design things. I wil try to detail a little some of these first points: a) Life is difficult to define, but I would be happy with some simple definition, like entities capable of self-replication, metabolism, and existence in a continuous far from equilibrium, ebtropy reducing condition. However we define life, we usually recognize it. The only form of life we know of rests on some biochemical features which are neither simple nor completely understood, do I would say that the first purpose of the designer must have been to create the conditions in which the first living beings emerged, so that life could start to exist in a minimal form. So we can assume that the designer is interested in the existence of life, and considers its existence as a worthwhile achievement. b) The gradual evolution of life is the basis for an important inference: the designer wants to develop hios initial project to express new functions. That is a very important point, and makes a big difference with the usual inference in darwinism, that the driving concept in evolution is survival. For me, function is the driving concept in evolution. In that, the work of the biological designer is very much similar to the work of human designers. Human designers designed command line operating systems, and then they added a graphical interface, then they reprogrammed all at 32 bits, then improved multitasking, and so on. We observe much the same thing in the biological world. I have argued many times that survival is at its highest in prokaryotes. If survival were the driving force, evolution could well have stopped there. Moreover, higher complexity is usually a cause of fragility rather than strength (more occasions for errors), and therefore the purpose of complexity is to allow higher functions. At the same time, the designer has to guarantee that the new complexity may remain reasonably stable. The many processes of DNA repair in living beings are a good example of "debugging" and error management in biological systems. c) In this general scenarios, the designer has many simpler and clearer local purposes: for instance to find and perfect molecular machines capable to effect specific biochemical tasks which would never be possible in a non controlled non living environment (such as enzymes). 2) So, let's go to the limitations. I have no clues about how "smart" the designer is, althoyugh it is obvious that he is at least much smarter than us humans (he has done many things that we still cannot even vaguely approach). But there are some basic limitations which are quite obvious if we look at what we know: a) The designer acts in a context. For OOL, that context is the planet in its conditions when life originated. Life is built with resources compatible with that context. For evolution of new species, the context is essentially what already exists. It is obvious, at least for me, that the designer acts on what he has already achieved, modifying and improving it. So, he follows a path of gradual development in time, exactly like we human designers do, although with different time frames. So, if the designer wants to add new functions to a new species, he reutilizes vastly what he has already designed, and adds the new necessary information. In that sense, we have to do with a parsimonious designer. His resources, although probably vast, are not unlimited. b) The designer inputs information. So, he has to possess it in some way. We don't know if he possesses it in advance, or if he looks for it by a trial and error process. That is one point which can certainly find answers from data. In the present situation, I would say that both things are probably true, in different contexts. One thing is certyain: the designer knows well how to use a random search when that is useful. His implementations of the building of the basic antibody repertoire, and of antibody maturation after the primary immune response, in the context of the immune system, are clear evidence of that, as I have argued many times. As far as I can say, it is absolutely possible that the designer, in the biological context, makes errors and learns from them. Or just meets failures and tries again. I suppose that the apparent failure of the Ediacara explosion could be considered one such example. What does all that mean? It means that the designer of biological beings, even if he were an omnipotent God, does not act as an arbitrarily omnipotent God. He acts in a context, and respects specific rules. c) The designer, obviously, needs also a way to interact with the material world. In human design, that is achieved through the human body interface. While that could be also true for the biological designer, for example in the aliens scenario, I suppose that most of us would consider more reasonable that the designer be a conscious being who can interact with matter without a physical body (that does not mean necessarily a god). So, we need some theory of how a consciousness can interact with matter. Luckily, even that problem is not left tpo mere speculation: we have an empirical model, the interaction of human consciousness with its physical interface. There we can learn much. As I have argued often, I believe that an interface which works at least in part at quantum level is at present the best hypothesis, both for humans and for the designer. Such an interaction needs a modality too, and here various scenarios are possible, all of them subject to empirical verification: guided mutation, intelligent selection, or both are the first mechanisms which come to mind. d) Finally, I have spoken here of one designer, but I sincerely believe that the question of more possible designers remains open to empirical reasoning.gpuccio
October 17, 2010
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