Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Water is Bewitched

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“I completely agree that scientific progress has undermined our old animist beliefs and led to the disenchantment of the world.” Jules Evans

I was thinking about that highlighted part, and my response is, “Well, yes and no.” Yes, if Evans is saying nothing more than that we no longer believe, for example, that fairies tangle the hair of sleepers into elf-locks.

But if Evans is suggesting that science has given us a better understanding of final causes, he is wrong. My favorite Chesterton quote:

All the terms used in the science books, ‘law,’ ‘necessity,’ ‘order,’ ‘tendency,’ and so on, are really unintellectual, because they assume an inner synthesis, which we do not possess. The only words that ever satisfied me as describing Nature are the terms used in the fairy books, ‘charm,’ ‘spell,’ ‘enchantment.’ They express the arbitrariness of the fact and its mystery. A tree grows fruit because it is a MAGIC tree. Water runs downhill because it is bewitched.

Scientists assume the universe is always and in all places rational and therefore it can be successfully modeled. Water runs downhill today and it will run downhill tomorrow. It will not suddenly start running uphill. In other words, scientists assume that the regularities they observe (which they call “laws of science”) will hold. No scientist can say “why” water runs downhill other than to say that gravity makes water run downhill. But the law of gravity is not a causal agent. Rather, it is an observed regularity. In other words, in 100% of the experiments on earth, water has run downhill, and from that we infer a general principle that things on earth always fall down and we call that general principle “gravity.” Thus, saying that water runs downhill because of the law of gravity is at bottom saying nothing more than water runs downhill because water runs downhill. Chesterton was right. Water runs downhill because it is bewitched.

Everyone is familiar with the child’s game where the response to an explanation is “why?” which requires a deeper explanation, to which the child’s response is “why?” which requires a still deeper explanation.  At some point the inevitable conclusion to the game comes when the adult says “That’s just the way it is.”

Scientists are not exempt from the “why” game.  And it may surprise my readers to learn that they get to the “that’s just the way it is” stage fairly quickly.

Why does water run downhill?

Because things fall down; water is a thing and when it runs downhill it is merely falling down.

Why?

Because gravity makes things fall down.

Why?

That’s just the way it is.

Why does gravity operate the way that it does instead of some other way?  The scientist has no better explanation for that question than the theologian.

 

Comments
And we are STILL waiting for Alan to produce some evidence taht natural selection can do something...Joe
September 3, 2013
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Ooops- however I have noticed that my typos- espcially the "h" have increased with the new keyboard...Joe
September 3, 2013
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Alan, My issue with typos appears to be me. I am typing without looking and posting without proof-reading. As for reality says otherwise, well I explained that also. Strange that you cannot handle that explanation...Joe
September 3, 2013
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PS does JoeG have a link to where "Reality says otherwise". Is it Mr, Ms or Dr Reality and is it in a published paper?Alan Fox
September 3, 2013
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Joe, a technical question. I note that you seem to have the same problem as me in that odd letters get missed from the words you type. "Tat" for "that" above for example. Do you think there is a software glitch somewhere, as I find it happens very regularly here but not elsewhere?Alan Fox
September 3, 2013
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It is a given tat Alan does NOT understand natural selection: Natural selection is just differential reproduction due to heritable random variations. It doesn’t do anything, it definitely doesn’t design anything. And, being an output driven by three random inputs, anyone can see it is also random, or as non-random as the spray pattern from a sawed-off shotgun shooting bird shot. Keep choking on it Alan...Joe
September 3, 2013
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Alan, Mark claimed that “natural selection … cause[s] organisms to develop features that help the organism survive and reproduce.”
And I agree with him.
Then you disagree with evolutionary biologists.
Selection acts on populations, sifting out the less successful alleles.
Reference please- we know NS doesn't act on anything.
The process is statistically non-random.
Reality says otherwise- so you lose, again.
Although the Lenski experiment has shown selection in action for E. coli.
If it has then NS is in big trouble as no new proteins arose- heck not ecven new functionality arose. And Alan, seeing that you cannot reference this alleged ToE how would you know what a garbled version is? And it is a given that you understand very little- your posts betray you.Joe
September 3, 2013
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Oops a missing "are you" rather garbled that last sentence. It should read: How, with your inability to produce only your garbled version of ToE above, are you in any position to conclude what other people understand? How bizarre!Alan Fox
September 2, 2013
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Alan, Mark claimed that “natural selection … cause[s] organisms to develop features that help the organism survive and reproduce.”
And I agree with him.
That is simply false. Even he has not bothered to defend it. But that doesn’t stop you, oh no.
We all have the choice to comment on websites as time, opportunity and inclination permit.
Even if some organism, by some as yet unspecified cause (you just have to love modern evolutionary theory) happens to have developed some feature that helps it survive and reproduce, even then there’s no guarantee the feature will be passed on and be present in all future generations. If the feature is passed on to subsequent generations to the exclusion of some other feature, then you say that the feature was “selected-for” and the process by which it increased in frequency in subsequent populations you call “natural selection’ (even though it could have been simply pure dumb luck (aka drift).
You read evolutionary theory as literally and simplistically as you read the bible. Selection acts on populations, sifting out the less successful alleles. The process is statistically non-random. Unfortunately it is too slow to play you a video. Although the Lenski experiment has shown selection in action for E. coli
You, like so many others of your ilk, don’t even understand your own theory.
How, with your inability to produce only your garbled version of ToE above, in any position to conclude what other people understand? How bizarre!Alan Fox
September 2, 2013
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If Alan is doing the shooting no birds would be harmed...Joe
September 2, 2013
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Well, Joe, if those dead birds form a pattern, that's environmental design!Mung
September 2, 2013
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Natural selection is just differential reproduction due to heritable random variations. It doesn't do anything, it definitely doesn't design anything. And, being an output driven by three random inputs, anyone can see it is also random, or as non-random as the spray pattern from a sawed-off shotgun shooting bird shot.Joe
September 2, 2013
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Alan Fox:
That’s why I like to refer to natural selection as environmental design.
What's wrong with calling it natural selection?
You may not agree but you need to understand the concept before you can argue against it effectively.
No one needs to understand concepts that you just make up on the spur of the moment.Mung
September 2, 2013
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Alan, Mark claimed that "natural selection ... cause[s] organisms to develop features that help the organism survive and reproduce." That is simply false. Even he has not bothered to defend it. But that doesn't stop you, oh no. Even if some organism, by some as yet unspecified cause (you just have to love modern evolutionary theory) happens to have developed some feature that helps it survive and reproduce, even then there's no guarantee the feature will be passed on and be present in all future generations. If the feature is passed on to subsequent generations to the exclusion of some other feature, then you say that the feature was "selected-for" and the process by which it increased in frequency in subsequent populations you call "natural selection' (even though it could have been simply pure dumb luck (aka drift). You, like so many others of your ilk, don't even understand your own theory.Mung
September 2, 2013
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The movements of something unguided do tend to be a tad random, Alan. It's why police make suspected drunk drivers walk a line.Axel
September 2, 2013
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When does a process become so felicitous it can no longer reasonably be described as unguided, random?
When it is called natural selection or environmental design. Decidedly not a random process. Where did you get the idea that natural selection was random? Certainly not from me. Unguided, certainly, but not random.Alan Fox
September 2, 2013
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You need to compile a new lexicon, Alan. 'selection' predicates intelligence and choice. Can a curiously-felicitous process of attrition be a 'driving' 'force'? And what about the origin of the felicitous options, the results of the triage - the 'last ones left standing', after the process of attrition? When does a process become so felicitous it can no longer reasonably be described as unguided, random? Apparently very early in the piece, so why do you and your confreres continue to reject the mathematics? You have some nerve, or, rather, want of nous, to describe 'felicitous attrition' as 'natural selection', but 'environmental design??!!!' Another evocation of intelligence and purpose!Axel
September 2, 2013
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Natural selection does not cause organisms to develop features that help the organism survive and reproduce.
Of course Mark is correct in his understanding of natural selection as the driving force of evolution. That's why I like to refer to natural selection as environmental design. You may not agree but you need to understand the concept before you can argue against it effectively.Alan Fox
September 1, 2013
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Was Aristotle a scientist?
If you consider his observations on the sea life in a lagoon by the island of Lesbos, I think you'd have to say yes.Alan Fox
September 1, 2013
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Mark Frank:
Because natural selection and the other mechanisms that comprise modern evolutionary theory cause organisms to develop features that help the organism survive and reproduce.
Natural selection does not cause organisms to develop features that help the organism survive and reproduce. You are simply confused and/or mistaken. Or you misspoke.Mung
September 1, 2013
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Mark Frank:
Do you concede then that it is only in biology that scientists ask the question “to what end?”?
It depends :) Was Aristotle a scientist? Are you willing to argue that all language of purpose and ends have been excised from science with the sole exception of biology? What, then, makes biology a science?Mung
September 1, 2013
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#32 Mung Do you concede then that it is only in biology that scientists ask the question "to what end?"? Why in biology? Because natural selection and the other mechanisms that comprise modern evolutionary theory cause organisms to develop features that help the organism survive and reproduce. This means that for any feature it is frequently helpful to consider how that feature contributes to the organism's fitness i.e. to what end. We are not talking about some ultimate purpose - just the purpose of helping that organism (which may well conflict with the purposes of helping other organisms) But surely you knew that is roughly how I would answer?Mark Frank
August 31, 2013
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Mark, can you explain how organisms came to have ends but nothing else in Nature does? Next you'll be touting vitalism, if you're not careful. ;)Mung
August 31, 2013
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Mark Frank:
In biology it is a useful heuristic because most features of an organism have evolved to help that organism’s ends.
Evolved how-> by design or willy-nilly?Joe
August 31, 2013
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#28 Mung
Mark, scientists continue to ask the question, to what end and for what purpose? It’s a very natural way to ask about the world.
In biology it is a useful heuristic because most features of an organism have evolved to help that organism's ends. I am not aware of any other examples. Can you provide some?Mark Frank
August 30, 2013
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#27 vanodorf I don't see how your example relates to what I am saying. Surely Luc Montagnier is a scientist who kept on looking?Mark Frank
August 30, 2013
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Mark, scientists continue to ask the question, to what end and for what purpose? It's a very natural way to ask about the world.Mung
August 30, 2013
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@ Mark Frank But surely scientists don’t stop ... they keep on looking. Not so sure about that. Luc Montagnier, 2008 Nobel in Medicine, has made some recent discoveries around the structure of water that do not fit any current chemistry model. If confirmed, they may drive a revision of many long standing views in chemistry. He moved to China to, in his own words, escape the intellectual terrorism in Europe and continue his research there.vanodorf
August 30, 2013
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#25 Mung I have just seen your comments on TSZ and I am sorry for missing them but the conversation seemed to have halted 18 days before that and I moved on. Anyway I don't know what you are asking for. You just want me to start a topic headed causality? You can do that for yourself on TSZ but without a specific question or event to discuss I don't know it would generate much debate.Mark Frank
August 30, 2013
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Mark: I don’t know what an ultimate cause is Mung: And yet over at TSZ you created a thread on Causation. Mark: So what? So let me tell you so what. If you are truly interested in the subject, check the activity in your thread at TSZ. If you want to discuss the topic here at UD send an email to someone who can make it happen.Mung
August 30, 2013
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