Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

50 Christmases Later

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

December 19, 1971 was a Sunday, the last one before Christmas.  I was ten.  My sister was eleven.  We went with our family to the evening service at Trinity Baptist Church in Boyd, Texas.  After services my parents left us with a group that was going Christmas caroling.  We never made it to the first house.

Our church was on the highway on the western edge of town.   Our group of about 20 carolers walked along the side the highway toward the first neighborhood a few hundred yards away.  The leaders were in the front and back of the group.  My sister and I were with the kids in the middle.  My memories of what happened next are episodic.  I don’t know if this is because I was in and out of consciousness or if my mind will not let me remember.  This is what I do remember.

It is a dark night.  We are walking along the side of the road.  My friends are around me.  Two headlights.  Screeching tires.  Screams.  Darkness.

Laying in a ditch.  Where is Robin?  Grabbing hands full of weeds as I crawl in the ditch.  Why can’t I stand?  Darkness.

Laying on the side of the road.  Someone has laid a coat over me.  A crowd has gathered around a car.  Yelling.  A man is beating someone with his fists.  Darkness.

The flashing lights of ambulances.  My mother is here.  She is hysterical.  She is screaming and fighting with a man who will not let her into an ambulance.  Darkness.

In an ambulance going down the road.  My father is beside me.  He weeps silently.  Darkness.

Bright lights of a hospital.  A doctor is wrapping plaster around my leg.  I see one of my friends on the other side of the room.  Sleep.

Later I learned that a drunken 19 year-old man had swerved toward the group as a joke to frighten us.  He lost control and drove into the middle of the group among the kids.  Eight were injured, including me and my sister, and one nine year-old girl was killed when the car pinned her against a highway post.  This girl was wearing the same style coat as my sister, and my mother had fought to get into the ambulance with her, thinking it was her daughter.  My sister was in a different ambulance, and my father was weeping because the entire trip with me to the hospital in Fort Worth he thought Robin was dead. 

Robin was not dead, but she was badly injured.  She was hit so hard that her body became a projectile that struck another kid and broke his leg.  She sustained a broken nose, a broken leg, a broken arm and injuries to her spinal cord.  She had operations and lived a fairly normal life, though she always struggled with fine motor skills.  Over 40 years later, in 2014, complications from her injuries caused her to become a quadriplegic.  She lived six more years and died in 2020.  By comparison, my injuries were slight, a broken leg from which I fully recovered. 

What to make of all of this?  Terrible, senseless things happen to children as Ivan Karamazov recounted in his famous indictment of God.  How can a loving God allow this?  I have contemplated the theodicy for decades, and in that time I have learned only one thing for certain.  Ivan’s indictment cannot be refuted by logic.  If it can be countered at all, it can be countered only as Alyosha countered it, by faith in God’s love as demonstrated though Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.  Robin trusted.  She forgave.  She did not allow bitterness to consume her soul.  This is our second Christmas without her, but I will see her again.  With joy in my heart, I sing the old song:

I’ll meet you in the morning
With a how do you do
And we’ll sit down by the river
And with rapture old acquaintance renew
You’ll know me in the morning
By the smile that I wear
When I meet you in the morning
In that city that is built four square

Comments
Ram @332, So you're saying that if I disapprove of your vacuous ad hominems and continual evasions then I'm advocating that you justify criminal behavior and I've become an idiot?? Wow, you get the pretzel prize(tm) for that logic. LOL -QQuerius
January 10, 2022
January
01
Jan
10
10
2022
09:04 PM
9
09
04
PM
PDT
Querius, If you want to defend an idiot who would say this... "It’s ok at least you [Ram] admitted that you love the criminals: murderers, rapists, terrorists, pedophiles, blood sacrifices, cannibals etc. etc. and you want theirs actions to be ignored …because you are such a “loving ” and ” affectionate “person. Hahahaha! Question is why? Are you one of them?" And... "Ram justifies criminal behaviour ." Well, you're just as much as an idiot as he is. Feel proud. --Ramram
January 10, 2022
January
01
Jan
10
10
2022
05:20 AM
5
05
20
AM
PDT
Lieutenant Commander Data @329,
Ram: I feel sorry for you LCD, that you were dropped on your head as a baby
You know you've won the argument, of course, when your opponent has to resort to a vacuous ad hominem attack before fleeing. And when I answered his question, he did the same with a nonsensical response:
Ram: Thanks, for finally answering my question. Jeez. Hehe.
Note the "finally" after evading my initial questions to him. And then after I destroyed Ram's argument Ram tells me about feeling sorry for my dentist??? This sounds like what's produced by a cheap trollbot. -QQuerius
January 9, 2022
January
01
Jan
9
09
2022
08:04 PM
8
08
04
PM
PDT
Lieutenant Commander Data @329,
So true. What is the difference between a criminal and a saint? Answer: both are criminals except that one of them has repented.
Exactly! Just like you and me, one of the criminals on the cross next to Christ, and many others. And we have nothing to brag about. We're forgiven, not "holier than thou," and we're quick to forgive others, and we consider ourselves servants, not masters. -QQuerius
January 8, 2022
January
01
Jan
8
08
2022
08:49 PM
8
08
49
PM
PDT
Joe Schooner
It’s ok at least you admitted that you love the criminals: murderers, rapists, terrorists, pedophiles, blood sacrifices, cannibals etc.…
Just as Jesus did.
Nope. Jesus came to save the criminals , while Ram justifies criminal behaviour .
Querius But then we read in Revelation 21:6-8 .
So true. What is the difference between a criminal and a saint? Answer: both are criminals except that one of them has repented.Lieutenant Commander Data
January 8, 2022
January
01
Jan
8
08
2022
12:53 AM
12
12
53
AM
PDT
And Jesus said that prostitutes and tax collectors would get into heaven before the self-righteous, who in his times were the ultra-legalistic pharisees. But then we read in Revelation 21:6-8 . . .
He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
-QQuerius
January 7, 2022
January
01
Jan
7
07
2022
04:25 PM
4
04
25
PM
PDT
It’s ok at least you admitted that you love the criminals: murderers, rapists, terrorists, pedophiles, blood sacrifices, cannibals etc.…
Just as Jesus did.Joe Schooner
January 7, 2022
January
01
Jan
7
07
2022
02:37 PM
2
02
37
PM
PDT
Lieutenant Commander Data @325, For inexplicable reasons, Ram also feels sorry for my dentist (?) after I explained to him how a Just God could ensure perfect Justice for those who demand Justice and Mercy to those who sincerely repent and ask for Mercy. -QQuerius
January 7, 2022
January
01
Jan
7
07
2022
02:15 PM
2
02
15
PM
PDT
Ram I feel sorry for you LCD, that you were dropped on your head as a baby –Ram
:) It's ok at least you admitted that you love the criminals: murderers, rapists, terrorists, pedophiles, blood sacrifices, cannibals etc. etc. and you want theirs actions to be ignored ...because you are such a "loving " and " affectionate "person. Hahahaha! Question is why? Are you one of them? PS: which one of them do you love more?Lieutenant Commander Data
January 7, 2022
January
01
Jan
7
07
2022
05:59 AM
5
05
59
AM
PDT
I feel sorry for you LCD, that you were dropped on your head as a baby --Ramram
January 7, 2022
January
01
Jan
7
07
2022
05:04 AM
5
05
04
AM
PDT
Ram I didn’t say anything about saints and Hilter “finish[ing] the same.”
Yes you said it. You seem such "a lover" of moral law (more moral than God) except a temporary punishment would make moral law useless . :) Wouldn't matter whatever you've done in your life. Are you hitler,etc killed millions of people? Don't worry. At the end will be ok for you because finally you will sit at the same table with a jew that you killed and you will think at an smarter opportunity to kill him again . Hmmm....I don't know what to think when you actualy use the moral law to promote the cancellation of moral law. You should make your mind about moral law: 1.If deserves to be considered why you ignore it? 2.If deserves to be cancelled why you use it against God?Lieutenant Commander Data
January 7, 2022
January
01
Jan
7
07
2022
03:25 AM
3
03
25
AM
PDT
Querius: The ... answer is no. Thanks, for finally answering my question. Jeez. Hehe. I feel sorry for your dentist. :D --Ramram
January 7, 2022
January
01
Jan
7
07
2022
02:46 AM
2
02
46
AM
PDT
1. Correct. 2. Also correct Thanks. --Ramram
January 7, 2022
January
01
Jan
7
07
2022
12:40 AM
12
12
40
AM
PDT
Joe Schooner:
For “channeled” read “reigned in”, “tempered”, etc. In short, he set his anger aside for more productive means of seeking justice.
No. John Walsh did not "put his anger aside." You are just making that up. He directed his anger toward a noble objective, which was to obtain a measure of justice. His own story and his own testimony confirm the point. He was finally able to cope with his anger *after* he realized his goal.
Anger results in vigilantes, not justice.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. What is it about the word "sometimes" that you do not understand. You should learn to qualify your statements. Also, you have not yet addressed the wisdom found in Aristotle's quote:“ Since you have been ignoring it, I will present it again: "ANYBODY can become angry, that is easy; but to be angry with the right person, and to the right degree, and at the right time, and for the right purpose, and in the right way, that is not within everybody’s power, that is not easy.” What do you think he is trying to say here? Let me give you a hint. Pay special attention to the word "right" as it is being used in this passage.StephenB
January 6, 2022
January
01
Jan
6
06
2022
07:38 PM
7
07
38
PM
PDT
According to his family, he “channeled his anger” to get numerous laws passed.
For “channeled” read “reigned in”, “tempered”, etc. In short, he set his anger aside for more productive means of seeking justice. Anger results in vigilantes, not justice. Reason, logic and incentive leads to justice. The only role that anger may play is incentive. But only after you set the anger aside. After WWII, anger would dictate that the allies exact vengeance on Germany and Japan. An eye for an eye. But anger was set aside and the result has been an unprecedented peace that has lasted for over half a century. There was still justice, but it was directed at individuals, not the countries as a whole.Joe Schooner
January 6, 2022
January
01
Jan
6
06
2022
05:29 PM
5
05
29
PM
PDT
Joe Schooner:
Anger is definitely something that everyone experiences. But the link to providing the fuel for righting the wrong is tentative at best.
John Walsh, whose son was kidnapped, murdered and mutilated in 1981, became an advocate for victims of violent crimes and was the host of the television program America's Most Wanted. According to his family, he "channeled his anger" to get numerous laws passed.
The adage about never acting out of anger is a good one. Acting out of anger, although easy to understand, often causes more harm than good.
Acting out of anger is often or even usually a bad idea. But your adage that one should *never* act out of anger is obviously false.. Reread Aristotle's quote. I put it there for a reason.StephenB
January 6, 2022
January
01
Jan
6
06
2022
04:40 PM
4
04
40
PM
PDT
Ram @315, 1. Correct. Notice that the curve is INFINITE but the total area under the curve is finite. This same curve might be the absolutely precisely Just punishment for someone based on what their deeds deserve, either massive for some people or small of other people. There are several indications in scripture that punishments will vary to satisfy Justice--they not all alike. However, this doesn't mean that the scriptures state that the punishment itself is eternal, only that the non-existence after judgment is permanent. As evidence, I would refer to Revelation, where it states that both death and hell are also cast into the lake of fire. Surely it's obvious that this statement doesn't suggest that death and hell are "tortured" forever--only that they cease to exist. 2. Also correct, except that before disappearing, someone falling into a black hole will seem frozen in time to an external observer at a safe distance. From the perspective of the person falling in, it's over in a few seconds. Both the seemingly forever and a few seconds are true. From any perspective, it can be termed eternal and irreversible.
Your turn: Is the eternal torture your concept of God metes out never-ending or not from the perspective of the tortured?
The shortest, but inadequate answer is no. So let me qualify my assertion by saying that words are important: "torture" isn't justice and God is able to provide perfect Justice to those who demand it or perfect Mercy to those who've truly repented of their ignoble acts and asked for God's Mercy. I've done so and continue to do so. The people described as sobbing at the time of Judgment, are doing so because they see how loving their Creator has been in attempting to save as many people as possible of his dying creation by means of Himself being tortured to death, limiting himself only to preserving the free will of the precious people that he created in His image. Jesus termed their demise as "the second death," which sadly includes their spirit. As Einstein noted in his General Theory of Relativity, the perspective of the observer is key, and in a way this is also true in this context. I hope this helps. -QQuerius
January 6, 2022
January
01
Jan
6
06
2022
03:39 PM
3
03
39
PM
PDT
LCD: because sooner or latter no matter what Hitler or a saint did they will finish the same I didn't say anything about saints and Hilter "finish[ing] the same." Your black and white thinking has led you to hallucinating something I didn't write and then criticizing it. All kinds of outcomes are conceiveable without saints and Hilters ending up the same. Monstrous eternal torture is only one. --Ramram
January 6, 2022
January
01
Jan
6
06
2022
03:27 PM
3
03
27
PM
PDT
Querius: 1. 1/2 2. Object would slow down then disappear. Your turn: Is the eternal torture your concept of God metes out never-ending or not from the perspective of the tortured? --Ramram
January 6, 2022
January
01
Jan
6
06
2022
02:24 PM
2
02
24
PM
PDT
Any punishment that is “less” than eternal would render the moral law as useless…
But what if the moral law, like the law to worship another being, is useless?Joe Schooner
January 6, 2022
January
01
Jan
6
06
2022
12:56 PM
12
12
56
PM
PDT
Sometimes you can. So what?
Anger is definitely something that everyone experiences. But the link to providing the fuel for righting the wrong is tentative at best. The adage about never acting out of anger is a good one. Acting out of anger, although easy to understand, often causes more harm than good.Joe Schooner
January 6, 2022
January
01
Jan
6
06
2022
12:51 PM
12
12
51
PM
PDT
Ram @304,
Will you answer my simple yes/no question right after I answer your two questions?
That was my intent. In fact, I will do even better than that. -QQuerius
January 6, 2022
January
01
Jan
6
06
2022
12:14 PM
12
12
14
PM
PDT
Joe Schooner
Can't you right a wrong without anger.
Sometimes you can. So what?StephenB
January 6, 2022
January
01
Jan
6
06
2022
10:18 AM
10
10
18
AM
PDT
Zweston said:
I’m kind of wondering what difference it makes whether you like eternal punishment or not as to the validity of it being true?
It doesn't make any difference. That line of discussion came up when SB said that his perspective is that people who end up in hell (1) deliberately chose to go there, and (2) would prefer to remain there even if given the opportunity to leave and go to heaven.William J Murray
January 6, 2022
January
01
Jan
6
06
2022
08:28 AM
8
08
28
AM
PDT
I'm kind of wondering what difference it makes whether you like eternal punishment or not as to the validity of it being true?zweston
January 6, 2022
January
01
Jan
6
06
2022
07:00 AM
7
07
00
AM
PDT
KF, I don't think anyone here is trying to make an argument that the existence of evil disproves the concept of a good God. I think everyone here agrees that meaningful free will necessary includes the capacity to do evil. IMO, what people generally call "evil" is a necessary comparative value for many reasons. What is good has no value without the counterpart of evil. This is an argument solely about the concept of eternal, hopeless suffering as a proper consequence for any act or choice regardless of its "evil" quality. If you have the time and desire to make your case for eternal suffering here, then do so. If not, do not. If you have a link to some argument that attempts to justify the concept of eternal suffering, then provide it. Repeatedly saying you have other pressing matters and that the argument has been made elsewhere, or repeating that "this is not a theology blog," isn't helping the case for eternal suffering nor is it going to deter theological arguments from continuing here. The only thing that's going to stop that is if someone with editorial power tells us to stop under penalty of having comments deleted. Otherwise, your protestations just come across as someone incessantly whining about what people in a forum choose to discuss when the official management of that forum allows such topics and even occasionally participates in them.William J Murray
January 6, 2022
January
01
Jan
6
06
2022
05:30 AM
5
05
30
AM
PDT
Ram, this thread amply illustrates my point that UD is not a blog about theological disputes and internet atheist rhetorical stunts for cause. It is not about comfort zones, but about wasteful, toxic distractions that have little prospect of coming to reasonable resolution and which are likely to turn into animosity among the ill informed with naive people trying to help out being enmeshed in quarrels rather than producing responsible discussion. This then feeds the false theses about intelligent design creationism and the like, poisoning the atmosphere for discussion of the design inference. I have noted, several times, that there are other fora with expert panels that address such themes or would, e.g. Reasonable Faith. If one is genuinely perplexed go there, for many of these issues a typical parson would be a layman too. I note on the above much of it is variants on the dead issue, deductive form problem of evil, go to Plantinga's free will defence and recognise he showed that the theistic set is coherent. The basic onward point is that creatures capable of love and virtue must be free, genuinely free, thus capable of going elsewhere; but that is the opening up of a qualitative leap in possibilities for good. Beyond, given ongoing life crisis, I have little time or energy. I have engaged elsewhere as recognising our morally governed rationality is pivotal to resolving design inference and related civilisational challenges. We have lost much of our ability to collectively think straight; the consequences are not going to be pleasant. KFkairosfocus
January 6, 2022
January
01
Jan
6
06
2022
04:10 AM
4
04
10
AM
PDT
Joe Schooner
Can’t you right a wrong without anger?
SStephenB
January 6, 2022
January
01
Jan
6
06
2022
12:12 AM
12
12
12
AM
PDT
Ram Querius, Will you answer my simple yes/no question right after I answer your two questions? –Ram
:) Your question is a farce. I guess it's criminal to shift the guilt of humans freely choosing to do evil things to God justice.(Judge is guilty because criminal killed) Any punishment that is "less" than eternal would render the moral law as useless because sooner or latter no matter what Hitler or a saint did they will finish the sameLieutenant Commander Data
January 5, 2022
January
01
Jan
5
05
2022
11:10 PM
11
11
10
PM
PDT
Querius, Will you answer my simple yes/no question right after I answer your two questions? --Ramram
January 5, 2022
January
01
Jan
5
05
2022
09:32 PM
9
09
32
PM
PDT
1 2 3 12

Leave a Reply