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The Meat of the Matter

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I invite our readers to review my last post and the exchanges between me and eigenstate (hereafter “E”) in the combox.  I could go through a point-by-point rebuttal of eigenstate’s comments, but it would be pointless, because far from rebutting the central thrust of the post, he did not lay a finger on it.   Here is the central argument of that post:  The immaterial mind exists.  Everyone knows the immaterial mind exists.  Its existence is, indeed, the primordial datum that one simply cannot not know.  Therefore, any denial of the existence of the immaterial mind is not only false; it is incoherent.  Hence, the immaterial mind is not an “explanation” of any sort; it is a datum one must take into account in any robust (indeed, any coherent) ontology.  And if your metaphysics requires you to deny this undeniable fact, that is a problem with your metaphysics, not the fact.

In response E screams over and over and over (one can just imagine his wild eyes rolling back in his head as spittle spews from his lips) “I’m a meat robot; I’m a meat robot; I’m a meat robot.  And so are you.”  One wonders why a meat robot is so passionate about evangelizing all of the other meat robots to ensure they know (can meat “know”?) the true nature of their meatiness.

But E, you might object, it is absurd to say that the physical components of brain meat (oxygen atoms, hydrogen atoms, carbon atoms, etc.) can exhibit the attributes of an immaterial mind such as subjective self-awareness, qualia, intentionality, and the perception of subject-object duality.  Isn’t it just as absurd to say that amalgamations of the physical components of brain meat can exhibit those attributes?  Stupid! E responds.  You have committed the fallacy of composition.  What is the fallacy of composition?  That is indeed a real logical fallacy.  It means that it is fallacious to infer that a whole can exhibit only the attributes of its individual parts.  Here’s an example of the fallacy:  An individual brick cannot provide shelter; therefore a house made of bricks cannot provide shelter.   How does this apply to brain meat?  According to E, brain meat as a whole has properties far different from its meaty components, and one of those properties is the capacity to delude itself into believing it has the attributes of an immaterial mind.

Now, to his credit, I am sure E will be the first to admit that not all kinds of meat have this capacity.  Indeed, brain meat is the only kind of meat that we know of that does.  And what is the difference between brain meat and other kinds of meat that accounts for this difference?  It is all a matter of how the meat is arranged.  “Structure matters,” E observes pedantically.  Wait just a minute.  Is E saying that if a rib eye steak were structured just a little differently it would be conscious?  Well, yes, that is kind of the gist of it.  But where is the dividing line between non-conscious rib eye steak kinds of meat and conscious brain meat, you might ask.  Well, here is where things get a little murky.  But according to E, if we arrange the same stuff that rib eye steaks are made of (oxygen atoms, hydrogen atoms, carbon atoms, etc.) into a particularly complex configuration, at some point . . . wait for it . . . poof! you get meat that (has the illusion of) self-awareness, qualia, intentionality, and the perception of subject-object duality.

That’s right.  It turns out that invoking the fallacy of composition is actually just a backhanded way of invoking Poof! It emerged.  And like all emergentist accounts of consciousness, the pesky details about how consciousness (or the illusion thereof) emerges from simpler kinds of meat are never explained.  It really is just that simple.  E’s reasoning goes something like this:  You commit the fallacy of composition if you deny that houses emerge from bricks arranged in a particular way; and in just the same way you commit the fallacy of composition if you deny that consciousness emerges from meaty components arranged in a certain way.

“But,” you might object, “meaty components – no matter how complex the arrangement – are still, well, you know, meat, which is a physical thing.  How can an immaterial mental phenomenon like consciousness emerge from meat?  Isn’t that a category error?”  Now here is where E’s evangelism takes on a fundamentalist zeal reminiscent of an Appalachian snake handler.  In response to such a question he would stand to his feet, stretch out his arm, point his boney finger at you, and scream “Infidel!”  You see, E is committed to materialism with an intense quasi-religious fervor, and he holds his faith commitments with a dogmatic, brassbound and rigid fideism that would make a medieval churchman blush.  After he caught his breath and got his heart rate under control, he would reply breathlessly, “There can be no category error, because there is only one category and that category is physical; thus sayeth the prophets of materialism.”

Here is where the story gets very sad.  You see, materialism is a stunted, narrow-minded and provincial way of looking at the world.  A more robust ontology allows one to take the world as he finds it and revel in the full panoply of its grandeur, beauty and mystery.  But materialism says if self-evident facts conflict with its precepts, to hell with the facts; the precepts come first.  The god of materialism is a harsh taskmaster, and he forces all of his servants to wear blinders lest they be tempted to behold the forbidden facts.  And E, having heeded his god and donned his blinders, literally cannot see the beauty, vastness and glory of his immaterial mind.  Instead, he stamps his foot, gets red in the face, and chants, “I’m a meat robot; I’m a meat robot.”  Madness; sheer madness.

 

Comments
Box:
Now this poses a problem for materialism: if the brain and consciousness is one thing how can consciousness have ‘overview of’, ‘control over’, ‘a hierarchically superior position to’ and ‘distance to’ what it is constituted by?
A brain and consciousness is not "one thing". What you are describing is the relationship between something that exists and what it does. For instance, materiel legs exist and what they do is called walking. Material brains exist and what they do is called thinking. It is a category error to equate the two in the way I have seen here.Carpathian
May 14, 2015
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Carpathian: What hierarchy and what distance?
When you write your posts on this forum, you have control over words. You select the words (overview). IOW words are subordinate to your reason (hierarchy). All this can only take place if there is a certain distance between you and thoughts. So, we have 'overview', 'hierarchy' and 'distance' which are all necessary prerequisites for rationality. Are you in agreement so far? Now this poses a problem for materialism: if brain and consciousness are the same thing, how can consciousness have 'overview of', 'control over', 'a hierarchically superior position to' and 'distance to' what it is constituted by?Box
May 14, 2015
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Box:
According to materialism, you and your brain are one and the same, but how can you have overview of what constitutes you? How can you have control over what constitutes you?
In the simplest of terms, you are you and until someone can come up with a good logical argument that that is not the case, there's no reason to add an extra level of complexity to life such as immaterial entities.
Bottom line: control and overview require distance and hierarchy.
This is the question I ask every time I am prompted to by a statement like this. What hierarchy and what distance? Who inserts the immaterial mind? How does the immaterial mind find the body it's supposed to occupy? Why would anyone who can't handle directly answering questions like this believe in an immaterial mind?Carpathian
May 14, 2015
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WJM:
In effect, an individual would be their particular set of physically brain-encoded cognitive biases. There is no way to “escape” them.
The process of thinking rewires the brain constantly. Patients with brain damage, when MRI'ed just after the accident and then again at later times, show evidence of brain function moving from one part of the brain to another. MRI's show evidence that the brain rewires itself.Carpathian
May 14, 2015
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Eigenstate,
Eigenstate: (…) you really do think there is some necessary limitation to what atoms and molecules can do in terms of reifying consciousness, reasoning and abstract thinking (to name just three examples) based on the nature and characteristics of those constituent atoms/molecules.
My belief in those limits is not only based on the inadequacy of the parts, but also based on an understanding of what kind of causality is mandatory for accommodating rationality. Rationality presupposes ‘control’ and ‘overview’. I suppose that one can dismiss these notions as “brute intuition”, but I put to you that, in that case, you would be arguing for a radical redefinition of rationality. This brings us to the question: * how can you have control over and overview of what constitutes you? *
Eigenstate: (…) “reason”, on a materialist view, is a description of activities of the brain that draws conclusions from other available information in the brain. (…) I have/am a wholly natural mind.
According to materialism, you and your brain are one and the same, but how can you have overview of what constitutes you? How can you have control over what constitutes you? Bottom line: control and overview require distance and hierarchy.Box
May 14, 2015
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Mung:
Meanwhile, some people are just too incredibly stupid to be taken seriously.
I know how you feel.
In the view being argued here by Barry and others, there is no interface! Asking how it works is just a display of utter ignorance.
Whenever a child asks me how something works, this the reply I'll give them from now on.Carpathian
May 14, 2015
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Popperian said:
Imagine you ordered step by step set of instructions for how to build a car. However, when the order was fulfilled, what actually shipped was step by step instructions for how to build a boat. When you finish following the instructions, what will you end up with: a car or a boat?
You are conflating actuality with belief. You are assuming that at some point, in some way, there is a way for the individual to "be" something other than whatever their brainstate says they are, or for them to see the world some way other than their brains state dictates. Depending on how your brain is wired, you might believe you ordered step by step building instructions for a car; you might believe you followed those instructions; you might believe, when you are done, that you have a car; however, all that might have been actually going on is you barking and panting like a dog the whole time. There would be no means by which to penetrate the delusion and access any "actuality", because from the experiential inside, you are your delusion. There is no other "you" available to intervene from somewhere outside of the delusion. BTW, your argument assumes the very foundationalism you protest against.William J Murray
May 14, 2015
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[Reposting, as the edit modal dialog doesn't work very well. It scrolls off screen when trying to select text] Another example that knowledge is independent of anyone’s belief? Imagine you ordered step by step set of instructions for how to build a car. However, when the order was fulfilled, what actually shipped was step by step instructions for how to build a boat. When you finish following the instructions, what will you end up with: a car or a boat? Regardless of what you believed the instructions would result in, you would end up with a boat, right? So, now you have a problem in that, you needed/wanted a car, but got a boat instead. Again, all life is problem solving. How well do you think a set of instructions that claim to build a car, but actually builds a boat instead, will sell? Do you think the seller will keep making copies of those instructions if no one wants to buy them? What will likely happen is that the error about what the instructions actually builds will be corrected and it will be reclassified and sold under that new classification. They will make copies of the instructions because it actually solves the problem which it clams to solve - how to make boats.Popperian
May 14, 2015
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How well do you think a set of instructions that claim to build a car, but actually builds a boat instead, will sell? Do you think the seller will keep making copies of those instructions if no one wants to buy them? What will likely happen is that the error about what the instructions actually builds will be corrected, it will be reclassified and sold under that new classification. They will make copies of the instructions because it actually solves the problem which it clams to solve - how to make boats.Popperian
May 14, 2015
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@WJM Knowlege, as I've been using it here, is information that causes itself to remain when embedded in a storage medium. In addition, this knowledge is independent of anyone's beliefs, because it's causal role is what results in it being retained. We escape because we face problems to solve. As Popper put it, all life is problem solving. From another thread...
I would suggest that moral knowledge genuinely grows via conjecture and criticism and that knowledge is independent of anyone’s belief. IOW, we’re not merely limited to personal preferences, but we arrive at moral conclusions by rational persuasion, criticism and argument, which detects errors in our ideas about what we want. Imagine the following hypothetical scenario. Suppose a group of voters of a small civilization firmly believed that stealing was a great virtue, one from which many benefits were derived, and decided to repeal all laws prohibiting it. What would happen? Everyone would start stealing. Soon, the best thieves would be the wealthiest. However, most people could not retain their own property, including most thieves. Companies and individuals who produced goods and services would be unable to continue producing anything worth by anyone stealing. Their economy would collapse, food would become scarce, etc. Since their initial conviction that stealing was beneficial was strong, this may lead them to think there simply wasn’t enough stealing going on. So, the voters would actually enact laws to promote it. However, no matter how convinced they were initially, those setbacks would be problems in their lives they would want solve. A few voters would begin to suspect that stealing wasn’t such a good solution after all and direct their attention to the problem yet again. Since some explanation would be behind their belief that stealing was beneficial, they would try to explain why it wasn’t actually working, in practice. Eventually, they would settle on a different explanation that seemed better. And, gradually, they would persuade others of it, and so on, until the majority of voters opposed stealing. This is not to say it is not we who choose, but our choices are not merely preferences. We can rationally criticize our moral ideas. Knowledge is objective in that it independent of what we believe. This includes moral knowledge about how we think we can obtain what we want. And it’s independent of knowing subjects.
Regardless of what the voters believed, they had a problem in their lives which they wanted to solve, which suggested that one of their beliefs were inadequate. This is how they escape. Again, Popper's simple argument for the objective existence of knowledge, independent of anyone's belief, is as follows.
“Let me repeat one of my standard arguments for the (more or less) independent existence of [knowledge]. I consider two thought experiments: Experiment (1). All our machines and tools are destroyed, and all our subjective learning, including our subjective knowledge of machines and tools, and how to use them. But libraries and our capacity to learn from them survive. Clearly, after much suffering, our world may get going again. Experiment (2). As before, machines and tools are destroyed, and our subjective learning, including our subjective knowledge of machines and tools, and how to use them. But this time, all libraries are destroyed also, so that our capacity to learn from books becomes useless.” Karl Popper, Knowledge: Subjective Versus Objective, page 59
Sure, if we just sat around trying to justify or define things, then we would be stuck. But that's not how knowledge grows. First, we start with a problem to solve. Next we conjecture an explanatory theory about how the world works designed to solve that particular problem. Then, we criticize our theory and discard errors we find. In the case of science, this includes empirical tests and observations. Then the process starts all over again, and again, and again. When we solve one problem, we end up with a better problem to solve, which results in even a better problem to solve, etc. iOW, the fact that you think we would be "stuck" suggests you're mainly concerned with justifying or defining things, rather than actually solving problems.Popperian
May 14, 2015
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WJM #83, An interesting observation. It resonates strongly with my 'there is no overview' argument and the materialist' struggle to account for top-down causality. Reason is not reason as we know it without a certain distance to what is thought, without the "means of sensing, representing, and processing information neutrally or objectively" you speak of.Box
May 14, 2015
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WJM
Under materialism, once the set of physical structures in the brain that make the “mind” take root, one wonders what it would take to re-wire the whole thing in terms of changing fundamental views. There’s no way out of the loop – the state of the brain = worldview and how incoming information is represented and processed = one’s personal cognitive bias = state of the brain. In effect, an individual would be their particular set of physically brain-encoded cognitive biases. There is no way to “escape” them.
Great insight - once again. Everything in a chemical/material process is 'hard-coded' in a molecular process. Each thought (each component, letter, word of a thought) is an individual brain-state. Each human brain in the 7 billion people on earth today, is composed of the same organic and chemical matter. Each of those 7 billion brains is configured in a unique physical state which has produced 7 billion 'human persons', each with an individual self. There are never any partial selves, or shared selves. So, the self is locked in. It persists through an entire lifetime. With all the cellular and neurological changes over 90 years of biological life, the unique self persists. Memories are retained exactly as happened from childhood. However, the very same matter, the very same chemical processes create an infinite number and variety of changeable thought patterns - including changes in thought that redefine significant aspects of the person (without creating 'a new self'). As said - what does it take to re-wire a person's philosophical views and yet retain the sense of self through an entire lifetime?Silver Asiatic
May 14, 2015
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Mung In the Thomistic view, mind/soul is the eternal (with a beginning in time) form of the body. That's a start ... I'll leave the rest to experts if we have any here on that.
If I grant that I experience thoughts, how does it follow that said thoughts are not pieces of matter?
Since you can produce an infinite number of thoughts, you would need infinite pieces of matter for each one. Since we can communicate the identical thought through different media, the thought is immaterial. Cells in the brain die and are replaced - but the same thought (memory of childhood) can be retained perfectly. The thought, therefore, is immaterial - otherwise, the thought would change as the brain-matter changed.
There is nothing composed of matter in your mind. Therefore, your mind must be immaterial. That’s obviously fallacious reasoning.
Why? If the first premise is correct, then the conclusion is just restating the premise. If you're trying to prove the first premise, it would be more like: Immaterial things exist (thoughts). Thoughts emerge from the mind. The mind produces that which is immaterial. We have no evidence that the mind is composed of matter. Since the mind produces immaterial essences, and there's no evidence that the mind is composed of matter - it is reasonable to conclude that the mind is immaterial.Silver Asiatic
May 14, 2015
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If materialism is true, then one’s identity – who they are – is baked into the cake of how incoming data of any sort is represented in the brain. How data is perceived, represented and processed is that the individual’s “mentality”. Therefore, under materialism, an individual is, for all intents and purposes, their cognitive bias, since there is no means of sensing, representing, and processing information neutrally or objectively. A material mind would in fact “be” the physical state of belief representations in the brain, and those physical states would be directly involved in how all incoming information was necessarily processed physically. Under materialism, once the set of physical structures in the brain that make the “mind” take root, one wonders what it would take to re-wire the whole thing in terms of changing fundamental views. There's no way out of the loop - the state of the brain = worldview and how incoming information is represented and processed = one's personal cognitive bias = state of the brain. In effect, an individual would be their particular set of physically brain-encoded cognitive biases. There is no way to "escape" them.William J Murray
May 14, 2015
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The immaterial mind exists. Everyone knows the immaterial mind exists. Its existence is, indeed, the primordial datum that one simply cannot not know. Therefore, any denial of the existence of the immaterial mind is not only false; it is incoherent.
First, if I understand you correctly, the immaterial mind is a kind of barrier that reason and problem solving cannot pass. Is that what you're suggesting? Second, in what sense does saying the mind is immaterial (what ever that means) allow us to solve problems that we couldn't otherwise? Third, if you're not committing the composition fallacy, then there must be some kind of implicit objection in your argument that you have not explicitly presented. This is because we cannot extrapolate observations without first putting them into some kind of explanatory framework, regardless of how poor. For example, theism is a special case of the epistemological view known as Justificationism. God is the ultimate authoritative justifier of reason, knowledge in specific spheres, etc. However, there are well known criticisms of Justificationism. Namely that it requires one to eventually make the irrational claim "here I stand" without any justification. IOW, it requires one to make the irrational claim that this ultimate justification represents a boundary that reason and problem solving cannot pass. (See above) So, I'd suggest that your the implicit objection to "meat" as a source of conciseness is because "meat" is not an authoritative, justificationist source. In fact, calling the brain "meat" isn't just rhetoric, but designed to implicitly reinforce this to the theistic choir here at UD. Of course, If I'm mistaken, then please indicate what your epistemological view actually is and how it materially differers from the above.Popperian
May 14, 2015
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Querius, Given a differentiation between internal and external perception, do you agree that without exception internal phenomena present themselves as immaterial? With that settled, we can focus on phenomena that come to us by means of external perception. I suppose we could agree on the (material) way a brick presents itself to us, but as you have pointed out it gets tricky real quick.
Q: Is Time material or immaterial?
Good question. It seems to me that, together with space and natural laws, time is part of the context, which is necessary for material events to take place. I go for 'immaterial'.
Q: How do we know that the passage of time is not an illusion? How can we be certain that everything is not an illusion, either of our mind or God’s mind?
We don't. All "I" can be sure of is that "I" exist. BTW if everything is an illusion,—if such a thing is even logically possible—then I suppose everything must be immaterial :)
Q: Is half of Planck length material or immaterial?
'Concept', I go for 'immaterial'.
Q: How about arithmetic? Is 1 + 2 = 3 material or immaterial? How about the Fibonacci series? How about an 83% probability?
It can be about the material world, but it is itself immaterial nonetheless.
Q: How about Santa Claus?
Fantasy(?), so immaterial.
Q: How about history?
All I can say is: good question. What is the ontological status of events 1 second ago? Do they "not exist"?
Q: Is the Quantum Zeno Effect material or immaterial,
Both?
Q: and how about prayer?
Immaterial!Box
May 14, 2015
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Mung,
Box: Have you ever closed your eyes and found a brick or another piece of matter in your mind?
Mung: I would first need to find my mind.
Okay, what is your definition of ‘mind’ here? Given my understanding of mind, an “I” who needs to find his “mind” is incoherent.
Mung: Can I find my mind by closing my eyes?
IMO you cannot ‘not find your mind’, but reducing external perception—why not turn the music down also?— does help focusing.
Mung: If I were to say that anything is “in” my mind it would be thoughts. I will grant that thoughts are not bricks (though that’s debatable in a number of ways).
Thoughts don’t present themselves as material to us. For one thing they don’t have mass, weight, color, odor, structure and so forth the way matter has.
Mung: If I grant that I experience thoughts, how does it follow that said thoughts are not pieces of matter?
Because thoughts don’t present themselves as material to us. Of course one can always doubt the correctness of perception—although one cannot doubt the correctness of the perception of one’s own existence—,similarly one can ask: “these bricks present themselves to me as material, but how does it follow that said bricks are not pieces of mind?”
Mung: The logic seems to be s follows: There is nothing composed of matter in your mind. Therefore, your mind must be immaterial. That’s obviously fallacious reasoning. So perhaps that’s not what you’re saying.
What I said was:
The mind presents itself directly to us as purely immaterial. [emphasis added]
You seem to agree. Now, if you wish to argue that we can be deceived by our (internal) perception, then fine. To me, the way our mind presents itself to us is an argument in favor of mind being immaterial. Similarly the way that bricks present themselves to us is an argument in favor of bricks being material.Box
May 14, 2015
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Hmmm. I'm not sure I understand the difference is between material and immaterial. Is Time material or immaterial? How do we know that the passage of time is not an illusion? How can we be certain that everything is not an illusion, either of our mind or God's mind? Is half of Planck length material or immaterial? How about arithmetic? Is 1 + 2 = 3 material or immaterial? How about the Fibonacci series? How about an 83% probability? How about Santa Claus? How about history? Is the Quantum Zeno Effect material or immaterial, and how about prayer? See, I admit that I just don't know the difference. -QQuerius
May 13, 2015
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of related note: Dr.Robert C. Koons — "The Waning of Materialism" - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZLHKlwue20 The Waning of Materialism Edited by Robert C. Koons and George Bealer Description: Twenty-three philosophers examine the doctrine of materialism and find it wanting. The case against materialism comprises arguments from conscious experience, from the unity and identity of the person, from intentionality, mental causation, and knowledge. The contributors include leaders in the fields of philosophy of mind, metaphysics, ontology, and epistemology, who respond ably to the most recent versions and defenses of materialism. The modal arguments of Kripke and Chalmers, Jackson’s knowledge argument, Kim’s exclusion problem, and Burge’s anti-individualism all play a part in the building of a powerful cumulative case against the materialist research program. Several papers address the implications of contemporary brain and cognitive research (the psychophysics of color perception, blindsight, and the effects of commissurotomies), adding a posteriori arguments to the classical a priori critique of reductionism. All of the current versions of materialism–reductive and non-reductive, functionalist, eliminativist, and new wave materialism–come under sustained and trenchant attack. http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/Philosophy/Metaphysics/?view=usa&ci=9780199556199 Science and Theism: Concord, not Conflict* – Robert C. Koons IV. The Dependency of Science Upon Theism (Page 21) Excerpt: Far from undermining the credibility of theism, the remarkable success of science in modern times is a remarkable confirmation of the truth of theism. It was from the perspective of Judeo-Christian theism—and from the perspective alone—that it was predictable that science would have succeeded as it has. Without the faith in the rational intelligibility of the world and the divine vocation of human beings to master it, modern science would never have been possible, and, even today, the continued rationality of the enterprise of science depends on convictions that can be reasonably grounded only in theistic metaphysics. http://www.robkoons.net/media/69b0dd04a9d2fc6dffff80b3ffffd524.pdfbornagain77
May 13, 2015
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Is there anyone here who can offer something from an Aristotelian or Thomistic view of mind, rather than Cartesian? That could be interesting.Mung
May 13, 2015
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Box:
Have you ever closed your eyes and found a brick or another piece of matter in your mind?
I would first need to find my mind. Can I find my mind by closing my eyes? If I were to say that anything is "in" my mind it would be thoughts. I will grant that thoughts are not bricks (though that's debatable in a number of ways). If I grant that I experience thoughts, how does it follow that said thoughts are not pieces of matter? But all of this is sort of missing the point, I think. The logic seems to be s follows: There is nothing composed of matter in your mind. Therefore, your mind must be immaterial. That's obviously fallacious reasoning. So perhaps that's not what you're saying. Box:
What a curious question. Assuming that you experience self-awareness, can you not answer that question yourself?
I have to profess ignorance. I have no idea at what age I was when I first experienced self-awareness. Perhaps when I was still in the womb? At what stage does the brain first begin to develop?Mung
May 13, 2015
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Mung,
Box: The mind presents itself directly to us as purely immaterial.
Mung: How so
Have you ever closed your eyes and found a brick or another piece of matter in your mind?
Mung: and at what age?
What a curious question. Assuming that you experience self-awareness, can you not answer that question yourself?
Mung: If this has already been answered up-thread I apologize.
Your humor is beyond me sometimes...Box
May 13, 2015
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'But from whence comes the commitment?' 'No doubt, the role of education looms large. Indeed, there are three classes of people–the well educated, the uneducated, and the badly educated. It is the zealots that hail from that last camp that are responsible for most of the cultural decay we find everywhere around us. They are so sure of what just ain’t so. I have to disagree, Stephen. I believe it comes from the soul, and specifically, the Will. We know world-views are unwieldly as to change, though, in the matter of Christianity, when a person's morale reaches a particularly low ebb, he may be granted the grace of a more sudden conversion. So, your last paragraph holds the key, I think - morality. Aldous Huxley who in his younger days had scorned chastity, when he grew older understood and acknowledged that it was the threat of constraint on is sexual activity that had given rise to his animus against admonitions against licence, and towards chastity. It may not be what makes Eigenstate dig his heels in, or it may; or it may be some other moral demand he feels guilty about resenting. But it surely is emotional/religious in origin and a matter of the will. Voluntarism. The Bible teachings are predicated on it. What we know because of what we choose to know. Otherwise judgment of our souls would be unjustified. The unforgivable sin against the Holy Spirit is to set oneself against Jesus' teachings, in full knowledge that he had to be the Son of God to have been able to do what he did, acts which those Pharisees and other religious leaders had witnessed with their own eyes. Even after he had been resurrected, they were intent on making up stories to protect the status quo.Axel
May 13, 2015
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Barry
I am persuaded that E’s faith commitments are so overwhelmingly strong that he literally cannot see that which materialist metaphysics denies.
Barry, I have always wondered about the psychology of denial. Yes, at the level of philosophical materialism, it stems from an apriori, religious-like commitment. But from whence comes the commitment? No doubt, the role of education looms large. Indeed, there are three classes of people--the well educated, the uneducated, and the badly educated. It is the zealots that hail from that last camp that are responsible for most of the cultural decay we find everywhere around us. They are so sure of what just ain't so. Equally important, I think materialism is often the product of failed morality. Everyone has a philosophy of life even if it hasn't been explicitly acknowledged or understood. If a man doesn’t behave as he believes, he will soon believe as he behaves.StephenB
May 13, 2015
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Questions for eigenstate: You obviously believe the mind is an object, as the brain is an object. Have you any thoughts on how subject arises from object? You believe mind arises from brain, but why must it be limited to brain and not whole body? Is it because amputees haven't lost their minds? How would you Know? How would they know?Mung
May 13, 2015
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Eigenstate, your thraldom to scientism means that for you, knowledge has to be measurable to be valid, indeed, to have been measured. The fact that a claim of knowledge of a certain thing cannot be proved, to your mind, limited as it is, by a leggo/meccano mentality, means that it must be non-knowledge. Just speculation. Do you think that, before Einstein's theories had been checked and proven to be true, his claims amounted to non-knowledge? Grow up, for goodness sake. I wonder if you have the same incomprehension concerning the binding nature of mathematical proof, I've seen even atheist Nobel laureates suffer from. You can watch one Nobelist laughing with delight that, when he told Einstein some people had disproved part of one of his theories of relativity, his response was that 'it would go away'. He had done the math. How could that Nobelist be so tickled at Einstein's doubtless incredulous response? Well, perhaps it wouldn't have been incredulous, because he was under no illusions as to the limitations of atheist scientists. Of course the math could have been wrong, but surely Einstein would have had it thoroughly checked.Axel
May 13, 2015
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Box: The mind presents itself directly to us as purely immaterial. How so, and at what age? If this has already been answered up-thread I apologize.Mung
May 13, 2015
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Include just how the interface between the mind and brain works.
Meanwhile, some people are just too incredibly stupid to be taken seriously. In the view being argued here by Barry and others, there is no interface! Asking how it works is just a display of utter ignorance.
Just how do you connect something that is composed of matter with something that isn’t?
I know! I know! Through an INTERFACE! Can we get back to more interesting matters please?Mung
May 13, 2015
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Cartesian substance dualism is a form of interactionist dualism: that is, it maintains that mental states of a subject or person may and often do interact causally with physical states of that person's body, both causing such states and being caused by them. And in this respect the theory is fully in agreement with common sense. ... But for many critics of Cartesian dualism, its interactionism is it's Achilles' heel. These critics hold that, because Cartesian dualism regards mental states as states of a wholly non-physical substance, it faces grave difficulties in maintaining that such states are causes and effects of physical states. What, exactly, are these supposed difficulties? They are of two types, one conceptual and the other empirical. - E.J. Lowe, An introduction to the philosophy of mind.
Mung
May 13, 2015
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Eigenstate: The “immaterial mind” is not self-evidently true, Barry, or even evidently true, but never mind that for now.
The mind presents itself directly to us as purely immaterial. And the mind is undeniably self-evidently true—Descartes showed us the way to find out. There is “internal perception” and “external perception”. All things perceived by internal perception present themselves as immaterial—a brick has no place in internal perception. Generally “external perception” presents us with material things. We can doubt the objects of external perception, but we cannot doubt the object of internal perception, which means that the immaterial is principal. If the immaterial is principal the following quote makes very little sense:
Eigenstate: “I have/am a wholly natural mind”.
Box
May 13, 2015
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