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What If Only Seversky Believed The Holocaust Was Wrong? So Far He Refuses to Say.

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Seversky wrote:

The psychopath may decide that he is morally justified in satisfying his appetite for rape and murder but all his potential victims are equally justified in deciding that they don’t want to be actual victims. Given that the potential victims greatly outnumber the psychopaths the will of the majority is likely to prevail. What’s wrong with that? The Nazis may have believed that they were morally justified in believing that the Jews, gypsies, homosexuals and mentally disabled were corrupting society and should be exterminated. If they had been asked, those groups would almost certainly have disagreed, as would at least part of the German people. As did much of the rest of the world. The Nazi regime was overthrown at great cost. Was that wrong?

I responded:

“The Nazi regime was overthrown at great cost. Was that wrong?”

Under your theory of morality, the most powerful prevailed. And the mere fact of their prevailing makes their actions right.

The more interesting question Sev is what about the opposite. Suppose the Nazis had won WWII and eradicated the Jews and homosexuals and then taken over the school systems of the world and taught everyone to believe that the eradication of every Jew and homosexual on the face of the earth was a good thing. Suppose further that you came along and bucked the system, so that you were literally the only person on the face of the earth who says killing all the Jews and homosexuals was wrong.

Would you be right and everyone else wrong?

I predict you will dodge that question. And why will you dodge it? Because if you give the only obviously correct response, the entire materialist edifice you have constructed for yourself will come tumbling down. And you will never allow that. Better to avert your eyes from the glaringly obvious truth than abandon the comforts of your materialist worldview.

So far my prediction has been confirmed.

 

Comments
HI Origenes. I think you are the guy who I discussed this with before, and we concluded (let me know if I am wrong about any of this) that you believe some non-material property must exist in organisms in order for them to function in an integrated fashion. I, as a non-non-materialist, don't believe that. The various parts of a person have evolved over time so they work together,: we are biologically integrated. I know I can't convince you of that, and I don't want to try. Backing up a few steps, I want to make it clear that I am not here in this discussion to try to convince anyone here that I am right. I responded to BA's to try to clear up various misconceptions he has about what atheist/materialists believe in respect to what "I" is. It seems people ought to have a genuine understanding about the positions of their discussion opponents if they are to be able to make good arguments, rather than misconceiving and distorting those positions.jdk
August 18, 2016
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I disagree with everyone here, including Seversky. The Holocaust was perfectly moral, at least it would have been 1000 years from now if the Nazis had won. Perhaps there would be an addendum to the Bible which would explain it all. When the Jews were the chosen people they were instructed by God to kill all the Amalakites, and they did because its moral to do what God commands you. But then they murdered Christ, their own Messiah. For 2000 years God mulled over what to do. Then he decided to wipe them out, just has he had decided to wipe out the Amalakites. He chose as the instrument of his vengeance the German people, specifically the Nazis among them. So 1000 years from now, theists of the WLCraig sort would say that the genocide of the Amalakies and the Jews were both moral acts because thats what God commanded. See how simple it is??REW
August 18, 2016
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I take back calling BA's questions stupid, and I apologize, BA.jdk
August 18, 2016
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Integrated by what? Integrated why? What keeps it integrated? What Power Holds Off Disintegration For Precisely A Lifetime?”Origenes
August 18, 2016
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Pindi, apparently I'm not acting the way you think I should. Would you prefer I put a bullet through the heads of my pro-abortion friends? Would you be satisfied that I'm being consistent at that point? Besides, your argument is fallacious. You're equating the Nazis of WWII Germany with the rank-and-file citizens of today's United States like my friend. Rather, the real comparison should be with today's politicians like the gutless "Catholic" Tim Kaine who's "personally opposed to abortion..." in addition to all NARAL/PP types. I guess I wasn't explicit enough: I would not be friends with the Nazis. I would be friends with my fellow German citizens who have swallowed the propaganda of their day believing that Jews are not persons. Of course, if my personal safety were at risk as well as that of my family, I would unload on said aggressor. 'Nuff said!RexTugwell
August 18, 2016
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Seversky,jdk et al.Forget about subjective and objective morality being in question, please define, morality , good, and evil to begin with. As a christian I cannot say look here is objective morality because jdk etc can say but God does not exist so your objective morality has no basis and they would be right without a moral law giver a judge of what morality is there can not be objective morality, and thats the point. If there is a God who claims to be the moral law giver then you have a basis for knowing what moral law is and can have defined subjective moral laws if such a law giver does not exist you can`t. To the Atheist I say does natural selection select for good, for right for the moral well being of man, you see these thing in the world and you could say yes it does, but you also see murder , rape, and untold atrocities , so it also selected mans desire to carry out these terrible deeds , Because it selects for survival not good or evil, it has no moral compass its just blind to everything but survival. So before you get to objective or subjective what on earth are morals to begin with, and who gets to make that call.Marfin
August 18, 2016
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seversky @ 10: "If you’re asking if there’s some ultimate, objective moral code against which all acts can be measured then my answer is no..." Then stop complaining when people don't act the way you want them to. You are just one person with an opinion of what is right or wrong. Your opinion means nothing to me, and I am sure my opinion means nothing to you. jdk @ 48: You are stupid and antagonistic.Truth Will Set You Free
August 18, 2016
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Stupid, antagonistic questions, BA. Once again, all of my remarks obviously are meant to be about human beings.jdk
August 18, 2016
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So if a person is merely 'integrated organisms that act in an integrated fashion for the sake of the overall person.' exactly what in that sentence separates us from the animal kingdom? Do you think apes are persons? How about lemurs? Darwin had difficulty deciding where he should demarcate humans from animals:
'At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes [that is, the ones which allegedly look like people] … will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the negro or Australian [Aboriginal] and the gorilla’ -- Charles Darwin
How about unborn babies? Are they persons since they certainly are 'integrated organisms that act in an integrated fashion for the sake of the overall person.' ? Or do you play god like Hitler did and arbitrarily draw a the line of personhood to suit your own personal prejudices? Do you hold with Dawkins and Singer that infanticide is OK? Just where and when does the legal status of personhood kick in is your 'integrated complexity' definition of persons? And are you for or are you against speciesism? Is eating beef, chicken and pork OK in your book? spe·cies·ism the assumption of human superiority leading to the exploitation of animals. Please be very specific and precise in your demarcation of personhood. And remember, no stealing from Christianity in order to make your definition of personhood complete!bornagain77
August 18, 2016
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Your being silly, BA, and/or intentionally dishonest. The full quote from me is
Equally obviously, individual people are distinct physical entities – integrated organisms that act in an integrated fashion for the sake of the overall person.
I am obviously talking about human beings.jdk
August 18, 2016
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jdk states that a person is defined as such:
integrated organisms that act in an integrated fashion for the sake of the overall person. Materialists accept each of us a person in that sense,
So integrated organisms that act in an integrated fashion are persons according to jdk. So why am I not in jail for murdering cockroaches? Moreover, is it only multicellular creatures that count for personhood in his 'integrated complexity' definition of personhood or does he consider the integrated complexity of bacteria sufficient to grant them the legal status of personhood as well? Harvard Law school awaits your respected scholarly opinion jdk :) Or perhaps, like me, they don't!bornagain77
August 18, 2016
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ba77 writes,
Seversky, Rationalitys bane, and jdk. I have a question for you. Under atheism, many leading materialists/Darwinists around the world, and at America’s top universities, teach that the entire concept of personhood, (i.e. that we really exist as a real persons, which is the most sure thing we can know about reality), is merely a fiction and/or illusion generated by the material brain. Yet, personhood is what gives us the right to life under the law. My question is this, how do Darwinists/Materialists and Atheists in general, since they deny we are really persons, guarantee anyone’s right to life under the law?
We started this question once before. BA's "question" contains critical distortions and misunderstandings. I haven't read much what these "top" atheists have said, and some of what I've read (Harris) has struck me as pretty bad philosophy, so I'll just offer some of my own thoughts. First, atheism and materialism are not the same thing, but let's start with materialists. Obviously, materialists don't believe that there is some distint non-material entity residing in and interacting with the material body that is our "real self", our "I". The "ghost in the machine", to use a common phrase, is an illusion: the central misconception of the material/non-material dualism. Equally obviously, individual people are distinct physical entities - integrated organisms that act in an integrated fashion for the sake of the overall person. Materialists accept each of us a person in that sense, and accept the legal and social rights and responsibilities that go with personhood. So when BA says materialists deny that we are real persons, he is confusing the denial of a self in the religious, non-material sense, which materialists do deny, with the materialist and humanist understanding of what a person is. I know this explanation won't mean anything to BA, or others here with similar views, as he think material organisms (at least people) without a non-material aspect are impossible. The jury is out on that one, of course, but not to BA. But his question is a non-question, for the reasons I mention. Denying that we have a non-material "I", and discussing the nature and roll of our our sense of self from a material biological point of view, are two different things. For the materialist, the material person is what a person is, and is deserving of being treated as such morally, legally, socially, and in all other ways. === And, now a comment on the difference between materialism and atheism. Some Eastern religions, such as Buddhism or Taoism, are atheistic but not materialistic. In respect to the self, they believe that each of us partake of the divine spark that pervades the universe, but the universal spirit is not conceived of as an conscious, willfull entity - a God - as in Western religion. In this sense, these are atheistic, or better, non-theistic religions. In these religions, the divine spark is not the same as the self or soul, in Western religions. In Buddhism, the "I" that we identify with, the ego, is an illusion created by our attachment to the material world. One of the goals of the religious journey in Buddhism is to give up that attachment, and thus discover that "I" am not a separate entity, but rather part of the great oneness. Even though I like certain parts of Eastern philosophy, I am way too much of a Westerner to be attracted to this idea: I'm attached to being me. But I mention this because it is another perspective: one that is non-materialistic but in which the "I" is also considered an illusion in a different way than a materialistic denial of any non-materials aspect to the self.jdk
August 18, 2016
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Barry@41, I say no. they were not objectively wrong.Rationalitys bane
August 18, 2016
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Barry, how do you know that the Holocaust, or anything, is objectively wrong, as opposed to your subjective belief? Can you give details as to how this distinction is made?jdk
August 18, 2016
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RB @ 28: Barry, “And they were objectively wrong, weren’t they?” RB: "Were they?" Yes, that is the question. I say yes. Instead of dodging the question and changing the subject, why don't you tell me what you say?Barry Arrington
August 18, 2016
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BA77 Interesting comments @34. Thank you.Dionisio
August 18, 2016
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#37 correction & addendum
Traudl Junge reproaches herself for having chosen the wrong path through life, and even worse for simply having let life sway her without going her own way at crucial moments. Only later does she links her depression with the atrocities of the Nazi regime, which are in such painful contrast to what she felt was her innocuous role in the Third Reich. Guilt feelings of an increasingly concrete nature weigh down on her - suddenly even the excuse 'you were so young at the time', which has comforted her for so long, seems hollow.
'At that time I must often have walked past the commemorative plaque to Sophie Scholl in Franz-Joseph-Strasse without noticing it. One day I did, and I was terribly shocked when I realized that she was executed in 1943, just when I was beginning my own job with Hitler. Sophie Scholl had originally been a BDM member herself, a year younger than me, and she saw clearly that she was dealing with a criminal regime. All of a sudden I had no excuse any more.'
She has not built up a façade, but has tried to be honest with her fellow human beings. The years of painful confrontation with herself did have a purpose: they matured her.
'I withdrew and let the guilt feelings, the grief and sorrow eat into me. Suddenly I had become interesting as an eyewitness - which brought me into severe conflict with my guilt complexes. Because the conversations were never about the question of guilt, only about the historical facts. So I could describe them without having to justify myself. That was something that weighed on me even more - and gave me even more to think about. Today I mourn for two things: for the fate of those millions of people who were murdered by the National Socialists. And for the girl Traudl Humps who lacked the self-confidence and god sense to speak out against them at the right moment.'
Until The Final Hour Hitler's Last Secretary Traudl Junge Edited by Melissa Müller Translated from the German by Anthea Bell Arcade Publishing . New York PS. The text quoted @37 was copied from online sources.Dionisio
August 18, 2016
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In further reflection on Talbott's question 'What Power Holds that Moment Off For Precisely A Lifetime?"
Molecular Biology - 19th Century Materialism meets 21st Century Quantum Mechanics https://youtu.be/rCs3WXHqOv8
bornagain77
August 18, 2016
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Of course, the terrible things I heard from the Nuremberg Trials, about the six million Jews and the people from other races who were killed, were facts that shocked me deeply. But I wasn't able to see the connection with my own past. I was satisfied that I wasn't personally to blame and that I hadn't known about those things. I wasn't aware of the extent. But one day I went past the memorial plaque which had been put up for Sophie Scholl in Franz Josef Strasse, and I saw that she was born the same year as me, and she was executed the same year I started working for Hitler. And at that moment I actually sensed that it was no excuse to be young, and that it would have been possible to find things out.
Traudl Junge on her emotions on learning she was the same age as a famous martyr of the White Rose anti-Nazi activist group, in Im toten Winkel - Hitlers Sekretärin (2002) [Blind Spot: Hitler's Secretary]
Of course the horrors, of which I heard in connection of the Nuremberg trials, the fate of the 6 million Jews, their killing and those of many others who represented different races and creeds, shocked me greatly, but at that time I could not see any connection between these things and my own past. I was only happy that I had not personally been guilty of these things and that I had not been aware of the scale of these things. However, one day I walked past a plaque that on the Franz-Joseph Straße (in Munich), on the wall in memory of Sophie Scholl. I could see that she had been born the same year as I, and that she had been executed the same year when I entered into Hitler’s service. And at that moment I really realised, that it was no excuse that I had been so young. I could perhaps have tried to find out about things.
Until the final hour. Melissa Müller.
Dionisio
August 18, 2016
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kairosfocus @32 Sobering reference to Paul's letter to Philemon. Perfect argument. Thank you.Dionisio
August 18, 2016
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Querius @29 Excellent quote. Very timely. Thank you.Dionisio
August 18, 2016
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Seversky, Rationalitys bane, and jdk. I have a question for you. Under atheism, many leading materialists/Darwinists around the world, and at America's top universities, teach that the entire concept of personhood, (i.e. that we really exist as a real persons, which is the most sure thing we can know about reality), is merely a fiction and/or illusion generated by the material brain. Yet, personhood is what gives us the right to life under the law. My question is this, how do Darwinists/Materialists and Atheists in general, since they deny we are really persons, guarantee anyone's right to life under the law?
8 Horrific Times People Groups Were Denied Their Humanity July 02, 2014 Excerpt: 1. African-American Slaves Buckner Payne, a publisher, declared in 1867 that “the negro is not a human being.” “In the eyes of the law…the slave is not a person.” – Virginia Supreme Court, Bailey v. Poindexter’s Executor (1858) “In the opinion of this court … slaves [and], their descendants … had no rights which the white man was bound to respect. … The negro might justly and lawfully be reduced to slavery for his benefit.” – United States Supreme Court, Dred Scott v. Sandford (1857) Approximately 12.5 million Africans were kidnapped and transported to the Americas between 1500 and 1866. Millions more were born into chattel slavery, treated as property rather than persons under the law. 2. Native Americans “An Indian is not a person within the meaning of the Constitution.” – George Canfield,American Law Review (1881) “The tribes of indians inhabiting this country were fierce savages whose occupation was war.” – United States Supreme Court, Johnson & Graham v. M’Intosh (1823), denying the right of Native Americans to own property. Hundreds of thousands of Native Americans were forcibly removed, killed, and expropriated. 3. Persons With Disabilities “It is better for all the world… [if] society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind … Three generations of imbeciles is enough.” – United States Supreme Court, Buck v. Bell (1927). 65,000 people were forcibly sterilized under eugenic laws, which were enacted in more than 30 states (in fact the Nazis praised America's Eugenic movement as a model to emulate). 4. Women Take Canada as just one poignant example: In 1876, British common law is used in Canada to uphold the notion that “women are…not persons in the matter of rights and privileges.” While they have the right to life, they cannot inherit property or sue for damages so as to benefit their lives. In 1916, defense attorney Eardley Jackson yells at police magistrate Emily Murphy, “You have no right to be holding court. You’re not even a person!” In 1928, the Supreme Court of Canada unanimously declares that although women are human, women are not “persons” within the meaning of the British North American Act. This decision was appealed and on October 18th, 1929, the Privy Council in England declared, “The word ‘person’ in Section 24 of the BNA Act, 1867 includes members of either sex.” They probed: “to those who ask why the word person should not include females, the obvious answer is, why should it not?” 5. Political Dissidents The Soviet Union designated those purged by the regime as “unpersons.” During the trial of one such “unperson” in 1938, prosecutor Andrei Vyshinski called them “a foul-smelling heap of human garbage.” The Soviet Union exterminated as many as 20,000,000 people. 6. Persons of Jewish Descent Sociologist Irving Louis Horowitz summed up the plight of Jews during the rise of NAZI Germany by saying, “The Jew as a national question; the Jew as a cultural question; the Jew as an economic question, never a person.” In May 1923, Adolph Hitler asserted, “The Jews are undoubtedly a race, but not human.” According to Ernst Fraenkel, a German legal scholar, the Reichsgericht, the highest court in Germany, was instrumental in depriving Jewish people of their legal rights. In a 1936 Supreme Court decision, “the Reichsgericht refused to recognize Jews living in Germany as persons in the legal sense.” Nazis described Jews as Untermenschen, or subhumans to justify exterminating them. To the Nazis, all the Jews, Gypsies and others were rats: dangerous, disease-carrying rats. Approximately 6,000,000 people were exterminated by the NAZIs. 7. Rwandan Tutsis During the 1994 Rwandan genocide, Hutu radio broadcasts dehumanized Tutsis, calling for a “final war” to exterminate the Tutsi “cockroaches.” Up to 800,000 Tutsis were murdered during the genocide. 8. Unborn Children “The word person … does not include the unborn.” – United States Supreme Court,Roe v. Wade, (1973) legalizing the killing of unborn children through abortion. “A fetus is a damn parasite and it invades the mother’s body like one too.” – DailyKos author, 2012. In the United States today, “unwanted” children in the womb are systematically denied personhood. More than 55,000,000 unborn children have been killed by legalized abortion in the United States. That’s more than all aforementioned violations of human personhood put together. http://www.personhood.com/8_horrific_times_people_groups_were_denied_their_humanity For Its Moral Ideals, Evolutionary Materialism "Freeloads" on Christianity - Nancy Pearcey - May 8, 2015 Excerpt: Westerners pride themselves on holding noble ideals such as equality and universal human rights. Yet the dominant worldview of our day -- evolutionary materialism -- denies the reality of human freedom and gives no basis for moral ideals such as human rights. So where did the idea of equal rights come from? The 19th-century political thinker Alexis de Tocqueville said it came from Christianity. "The most profound geniuses of Rome and Greece" never came up with the idea of equal rights, he wrote. "Jesus Christ had to come to earth to make it understood that all members of the human species are naturally alike and equal." The 19th-century atheist Friedrich Nietzsche agreed: "Another Christian concept ... has passed even more deeply into the tissue of modernity: the concept of the 'equality of souls before God.' This concept furnishes the prototype of all theories of equal rights." Contemporary atheist Luc Ferry says the same thing. We tend to take the concept of equality for granted; yet it was Christianity that overthrew ancient social hierarchies between rich and poor, masters and slaves. "According to Christianity, we were all 'brothers,' on the same level as creatures of God," Ferry writes. "Christianity is the first universalist ethos.",,, At the birth of our nation, the American founders deemed it self-evident that human rights must be grounded in God. The Declaration of Independence leads off with those bright, blazing words: "We hold these truths to be self-evident -- that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights." In the summer of 2013, a beer company sparked controversy when it released an advertisement for Independence Day that deleted the crucial words "by their Creator." The ad said, "They are endowed with certain unalienable rights." (Endowed by whom?) The advertisement is emblematic of what many secularists do: They borrow ideals like equality and rights from a biblical worldview but cut them off from their source in the Creator. They are freeloaders. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/05/for_its_moral_i095901.html
After you guys figure out how to ground personhood in a worldview that denies personhood, I have another question for you. As a bonus question for you guys, there are approx. a billion trillion protein molecules that make up the material body of a person. Protein molecules which, by all rights of reductive materialistic thinking, 'go their own way'. My question is this, what power prevents all those billion-trillion protein molecules from 'going their own way' for precisely a lifetime and not a moment longer?
The Unbearable Wholeness of Beings - Stephen L. Talbott - 2010 Excerpt: Virtually the same collection of molecules exists in the canine cells during the moments immediately before and after death. But after the fateful transition no one will any longer think of genes as being regulated, nor will anyone refer to normal or proper chromosome functioning. No molecules will be said to guide other molecules to specific targets, and no molecules will be carrying signals, which is just as well because there will be no structures recognizing signals. Code, information, and communication, in their biological sense, will have disappeared from the scientist’s vocabulary. ,,, the question, rather, is why things don’t fall completely apart — as they do, in fact, at the moment of death. What power holds off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer? Despite the countless processes going on in the cell, and despite the fact that each process might be expected to “go its own way” according to the myriad factors impinging on it from all directions, the actual result is quite different. Rather than becoming progressively disordered in their mutual relations (as indeed happens after death, when the whole dissolves into separate fragments), the processes hold together in a larger unity. http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-unbearable-wholeness-of-beings picture - What power holds off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer? http://www.crystalinks.com/obe.lady.jpg Scientific evidence that we do indeed have an eternal soul (Elaboration on Talbott's question “What power holds off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer?”)– video 2016 https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/vb.100000088262100/1116313858381546/?type=2&theater
Verse and Music:
Matthew 16:26 What will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? Soulshine - Allman Brothers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDIQ7Otf1mw
bornagain77
August 18, 2016
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RB, your first problem -- given your evident evolutionary materialism -- is to get to a genuine subject to be subjective about; as in on such the individual is an illusion of Brain-CNS neural networks. Why should we take the particular patterns of inherently non-rational blind chance and necessity that fired off neurons that triggered the comment that appears above seriously? Why should we take evolutionary materialist scientism as anything more than:
(a) a self-referentially incoherent and necessarily false scheme of thought, which is also (b) utterly, irretrievably amoral, manipulative, oppressive and in some cases outright nihilistic . . . with well past 100 million victims in the past 100 years (not counting the hundreds of millions of innocents slaughtered in the womb after being conveniently dehumanised)?
Then, you have to address how you get to responsible, rational freedom required to argue logically and to imply an appeal to the moral government that you ought to seek and speak the well grounded truth and right. This implies onward, you have to find a world-roots level IS capable of sustaining OUGHT; which simply does not exist on evolutionary materialism. (That's why you and your ilk predictably fail to see the direct import of such, that might and manipulation make "right" and further fail to see that politically correct power games cannot invent morality or rights, they can only put up agendas that intimidate and marginalise under colour of law by usurped force of the sword that ought to serve justice. In particular, to claim a right, one demands of others that they have a duty to uphold oneself in that matter; e.g. how dare you claim on conscience that you can refuse us your labour and creativity to bake this cake for us . . . on pain of bankruptcy and maybe losing your house. Such can only be properly done where one is manifestly in the right; or else one is usurping the sword of justice to serve injustice and oppression through -- yes, dismiss all you want, that inherently meaningless noise in the neurons cannot change the facts and grounds of warrant -- lawfare (and here outright robbery of livelihood). And for far too many fashionable causes today, all that is being done is that wrongs are wearing the robes of right and are demanding under false colours of law, that we taint our consciences and harm our souls by upholding the brazen in the manifestly wrong, foolish or outright insane. The grim Dominical warning is, 'twere better to have a millstone put around one's neck and fall irrecoverably into the deep sea than to so taint the soul of just one child.) KFkairosfocus
August 18, 2016
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RB, Kindly read Philemon -- it seems, plausibly, the de facto manumission statement for the later bishop of Ephesus, Onesimus [who may have led in collecting the NT documents] -- with open eyes, noting that the Antislavery movement's motto directly comes from it. Recognise, Paul wrote chained to a Roman soldier, while awaiting trial as an appeals prisoner (where, harbouring a fugitive slave could cost one his life) with his life already in the stakes before the judgement seat of Nero [he was likely heard by Burrus], only a fairly short distance from the Appian way that had been lined with 6,000 crosses after Rome put down the Spartacus slave rebellion. Then ponder how his letter decisively undermined slavery twice in history. Recognise i/l/o such, that until C17 - 18, peaceful mass movements for civil rights were simply not feasible. Understand the import of "Apphia our sister . . . " And, ". . . this perhaps is why he was parted from you for a while, that you might have him back forever, no longer as a bondservant but more than a bondservant, as a beloved brother—especially to me, but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord. So if you consider me your partner, receive him as you would receive me." KFkairosfocus
August 18, 2016
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Seversky's outwitted (what were the odds?); His subjective morals allow for death squads. So he tries to enhance His ethical stance By equating his thought-life with God's.Tim
August 18, 2016
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Q I believe that quotation should go to Dostoevsky from The Brothers Karamazov.Tim
August 18, 2016
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Over a half century ago, while I was still a child, I recall hearing a number of old people offer the following explanation for the great disasters that had befallen Russia: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened. Since then I have spend well-nigh 50 years working on the history of our revolution; in the process I have read hundreds of books, collected hundreds of personal testimonies, and have already contributed eight volumes of my own toward the effort of clearing away the rubble left by that upheaval. But if I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible the main cause of the ruinous revolution that swallowed up some 60 million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened." - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Simple logic confirms what Solzhenitsyn had one of his characters assert:
If God does not exist, everything is permissible.
I would add that the only sin, transgression, or crime then is to get caught by a more powerful group who can administer their arbitrary justice on you by force. Might makes right. The weak deserve to die. Truth is what the strong impose on the weak. Hope you enjoy your new world. -QQuerius
August 17, 2016
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Barry, "And they were objectively wrong, weren’t they?" Were they? There are plenty of scriptures about slavery in the bible, but not a single verse that says it is wrong, or evil. It is not even one of the commandments. But that is not the point I am trying to make. There are plenty of examples of things that were considered morally acceptable (if not obligatory) in the past that are now considered morally objectionable. And I am not talking about either being enforced through "might", although there are plenty of examples of that. Homosexuality is always a controversial subject so let's talk about that. Prior to the eighties, acts of consensual homosexuality could result in jail time. This was something that there was majority approval for (tacitly, in many cases). But today, you will be hard pressed to get much support for this punishment. Except from the nut jobs at the Westboro Babtist church (forgive me for that little jibe). Up until this century, homosexuals would be kicked out of the military. Up until 2014, homosexuals were not allowed to be members of the Boy Scouts of America (atheists are still prohibited). The idea of same sex marriage would have been considered immoral by the majority of the population even a decade ago. Today it is the law of the land, supported by the majority. And they are now allowed to adopt. KF would have us believe that all of this is the result of his "lawfare", and that it is being forced on people in spite of the will of the people. Unfortunately, he is mistaken. All of these changes have been the result of societal shifts in subjective moral opinion. The one objective aspect about morality that I will concede is that we all have deeply entrenched moral beliefs. But the actual morals themselves are subjective. I wish it were otherwise, but human history suggests otherwise.Rationalitys bane
August 17, 2016
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RB, my point was more about abortion. I've observed that the people who say it is mass murder, comparing it to the holocaust as Rex did, don't act consistently with that belief. That tells me that in their hearts they don't really believe it is mass murder.Pindi
August 17, 2016
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Rex, its not a gotcha. Its just that you say equate abortion with mass murder but you don't really mean it. If you did, you would treat abortion supporters the same way you would (I hope) treat Nazis. That is, at the very least, you would not have them as friends.Pindi
August 17, 2016
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