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What If Only Seversky Believed The Holocaust Was Wrong? So Far He Refuses to Say.

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Seversky wrote:

The psychopath may decide that he is morally justified in satisfying his appetite for rape and murder but all his potential victims are equally justified in deciding that they don’t want to be actual victims. Given that the potential victims greatly outnumber the psychopaths the will of the majority is likely to prevail. What’s wrong with that? The Nazis may have believed that they were morally justified in believing that the Jews, gypsies, homosexuals and mentally disabled were corrupting society and should be exterminated. If they had been asked, those groups would almost certainly have disagreed, as would at least part of the German people. As did much of the rest of the world. The Nazi regime was overthrown at great cost. Was that wrong?

I responded:

“The Nazi regime was overthrown at great cost. Was that wrong?”

Under your theory of morality, the most powerful prevailed. And the mere fact of their prevailing makes their actions right.

The more interesting question Sev is what about the opposite. Suppose the Nazis had won WWII and eradicated the Jews and homosexuals and then taken over the school systems of the world and taught everyone to believe that the eradication of every Jew and homosexual on the face of the earth was a good thing. Suppose further that you came along and bucked the system, so that you were literally the only person on the face of the earth who says killing all the Jews and homosexuals was wrong.

Would you be right and everyone else wrong?

I predict you will dodge that question. And why will you dodge it? Because if you give the only obviously correct response, the entire materialist edifice you have constructed for yourself will come tumbling down. And you will never allow that. Better to avert your eyes from the glaringly obvious truth than abandon the comforts of your materialist worldview.

So far my prediction has been confirmed.

 

Comments
I didn't say I would do nothing. Don't put words in my mouth. You seem to think you have a gotcha question but you don't.RexTugwell
August 17, 2016
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RB @ 20:
And scripture was used by other Christians to defend the practice.
And they were objectively wrong, weren't they? Or is this another instance where all you can say is: "I personally disagree with dehumanizing chattel slavery, but that is just my view and if someone has a different view I cannot say their view is objectively bad and mine is objectively good. The only thing that matters is who is stronger."Barry Arrington
August 17, 2016
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Pindi, the sad thing is that none of us can answer this honestly. With the benefit of hindsight, we would all like to say that we would take action. Or, at the minimum, distance ourselves from our Nazi friends. Unfortunately, the fact that thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of Germans turned a blind eye to what was going on suggests that not all of us would be as righteous as we think we would be. I would like to here Barry's or KF's or BA77's opinion on this. Would they act or lay low?Rationalitys bane
August 17, 2016
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Rex @7 So if you were, say, a catholic living in Nazi Germany during the holocaust, you would do nothing, and continue to be friends with Nazis, provided they did not start killing catholics?Pindi
August 17, 2016
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Neither the inhabitants of the two cities nor the rest of the world’s population are given the chance to present their case.
In no case that I can think of (earthly or otherwise) do the created and the creator play by the same rules. Nor can I think of a good reason why they should have to. But if one presumes that we're "it", then our sense of fairness has to set the standard...EDTA
August 17, 2016
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Barry, "Nonsense on a stick. Slavery was abolished because Christian abolitionists like Wilberforce (who almost single handedly defeated it in the British Empire) understood that it could not be reconciled with Christian ethics, and therefore they insisted that it end." And scripture was used by other Christians to defend the practice. I don't think either of us really want to open this Pandora's box. But, at the end of the day, abolishionists convinced a critical mass of society to change their views such that slavery could be abolished. In short, they were successful in getting a significant percentage of society to change their subjective moral view on slavery. We saw the same pattern with equal rights, desegregation, the death penalty, etc. A shift in societal morality. A few decades ago we were forcing homosexuals to decide between incarceration or chemical castration, because of our moral values. Now we have legalized same sex marriage and adoption. Some see this as a moral step forward and others as a moral step backwards. Again, it all comes down to individual subjective morality.Rationalitys bane
August 17, 2016
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Was slavery wrong? Was the way the native Americans were treated as the white man took over America wrong? In both cases, the people involved (all Christians) didn't seem to think so. What has gotten society to change its opinion on such things as slavery? To what extent has Americans come to see the treatment of the Native Americans as very wrong? Is bombing civilians in the Middle East wrong? I sure think so, but my government and many US citizens don't seem to agree with me. In 100 years, it seems at least possible to me that the world in general will see modern warfare, as we wage it now, as terribly wrong, but I won't be around to see it.jdk
August 17, 2016
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RB @ 15
What tends to be perceived as moral and immoral, good and bad, right and wrong is, for the individual, subjective.
So you join Sev in saying “I personally disagree with the slaughter of every single Jew and homosexual, but that is just my view and if someone has a different view I cannot say their view is objectively bad and mine is objectively good. The only thing that matters is who is stronger.” God help us.Barry Arrington
August 17, 2016
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RB @ 15
it was enough to abolish slavery
Nonsense on a stick. Slavery was abolished because Christian abolitionists like Wilberforce (who almost single handedly defeated it in the British Empire) understood that it could not be reconciled with Christian ethics, and therefore they insisted that it end.Barry Arrington
August 17, 2016
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Seversky, There is a major difference between holocaust and the obliteration of Sodom and Gomorrah and the Flood. Can you point out what that difference is?J-Mac
August 17, 2016
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Barry@12, "In my view, I would be right and, in the view of the Nazis, I would be wrong. Since the Nazis would somewhat outnumber me, their view would prevail and be the one handed down to history. That is what would happen." Sounds remarkably like all of human history. What tends to be perceived as moral and immoral, good and bad, right and wrong is, for the individual, subjective. What tends to prevail in a society as moral and immoral, good and bad, right and wrong, tends to be based on the concensus of individual subjective opinions. It is far from perfect, and is open to abuse and manipulation, but it was enough to abbolish slavery, get the vote for women, get rights for homosexuals and get legal recognition for same sex marriage. So, it seems to have its benefits.Rationalitys bane
August 17, 2016
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It would have been better for Seversky and his credibility if he had not answered at all.RexTugwell
August 17, 2016
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Sev,
In my view, I would be right and, in the view of the Nazis, I would be wrong. Since the Nazis would somewhat outnumber me, their view would prevail and be the one handed down to history. That is what would happen.
Translation: "I would prefer my view and they would prefer their view. There is no standard to arbitrate between our conflicting views, and the stronger prevails." Madness. Sheer evil madness. Sev,
As I see it, you can build a perfectly decent moral code around respecting and protecting those common interests.
And, under your view, you can build a hell on earth as in my example. And under your moral theory there is no way to arbitrate whether one is good and one is evil. It comes down to this, Sev. You are saying "I personally disagree with the slaughter of every single Jew and homosexual, but that is just my view and if someone has a different view I cannot say their view is objectively bad and mine is objectively good. The only thing that matters is who is stronger." You horrify me. Barry Arrington
August 17, 2016
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Yes, the holocaust was wrong - very wrong.jdk
August 17, 2016
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So far my prediction has been confirmed.
Patience, young padewan, and trust in the Force.
“The Nazi regime was overthrown at great cost. Was that wrong?” Under your theory of morality, the most powerful prevailed. And the mere fact of their prevailing makes their actions right.
Eventually the most powerful but, more importantly, ultimately the more numerous.
The more interesting question Sev is what about the opposite. Suppose the Nazis had won WWII and eradicated the Jews and homosexuals and then taken over the school systems of the world and taught everyone to believe that the eradication of every Jew and homosexual on the face of the earth was a good thing. Suppose further that you came along and bucked the system, so that you were literally the only person on the face of the earth who says killing all the Jews and homosexuals was wrong. Would you be right and everyone else wrong?
In my view, I would be right and, in the view of the Nazis, I would be wrong. Since the Nazis would somewhat outnumber me, their view would prevail and be the one handed down to history. That is what would happen. That's what happens in the Bible, for Mog's sake. In one story, the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah are obliterated, in another almost the entire population of the planet is annihilated. These are presented as righteous acts, that those people deserved what they got. And maybe they did. The problem is that's the story of the God who did the killing or His followers. We never get to hear the other side. Neither the inhabitants of the two cities nor the rest of the world's population are given the chance to present their case. If you're asking if there's some ultimate, objective moral code against which all acts can be measured then my answer is no, I don't think there is. All we have are ourselves and our common needs and interests. We all need secure supplies of water, food and shelter; we all need a secure environment in which we can raise a family and provide for them. As I see it, you can build a perfectly decent moral code around respecting and protecting those common interests.Seversky
August 17, 2016
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I hold my judgement on weather Seversky is dodging the question until after I see him comment again at UD. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more.Rationalitys bane
August 17, 2016
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"I predict you [Seversky] will dodge that question." In my experience, Seversky dodges *all* questions, so this would be nothing new.Timaeus
August 17, 2016
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Pindi, murder is murder. However, until the pro-aborts start rounding up pro-lifers and their children and start killing us, I'll continue to be friends with them. One wonders how history would have played out if more Germans loved their enemies.RexTugwell
August 17, 2016
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Hi Rex, So you see abortion and the Holocaust as similar? If so, how could you be friends with your co-worker? Surely if she was a Nazi who advocated the killing of Jews (and homosexuals, gypsies, and the intellectually handicapped) you would not want to be friends with her?Pindi
August 17, 2016
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Mung, "Was the crucifixion of Christ wrong?" That's going to open a can of worms. I assume that we would all agree that his crucifixion was unjustified (killing an innocent person, not to mention killing god's incarnation on earth). But, according to scripture, he died for our sins. Was that wrong? If he decided not to die for our sins, would that be wrong? Would Christianity even exist? I'm sure that Monty Python could have fun with this. Thank you Mungy.Rationalitys bane
August 17, 2016
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Was the crucifixion of Christ wrong?Mung
August 17, 2016
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Once I very cautiously taunted my Jewish coworker by saying that no persons were killed during the Nazi Holocaust. When she was on the verge of tears (we were close enough friends that I had gotten away with this without being fired), I made the point that the Nazis had declared Jews (and others) non-persons. Ergo no person, no murder, no crime, no wrong. My point was to help her see (she was pro-abortion) that abortion is justified by saying the unborn child is not a person because the courts have ruled so. The Nazis were wrong about personhood and so were the Supreme Court justices. I suppose if Seversky wants to say that Jews and homosexuals are not persons and have no right to life there may be a way out for him.RexTugwell
August 17, 2016
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What say ye, Seversky? Was the holocaust wrong?Truth Will Set You Free
August 17, 2016
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