Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A Darwinist responds to KF’s challenge

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

It has been more than a year since kairosfocus posted his now-famous challenge on Uncommon Descent, inviting Darwinists to submit an essay defending their views. A Darwinist named Petrushka has recently responded, over at The Skeptical Zone. (Petrushka describes himself as a Darwinist in a fairly broad sense of the term: he accepts common descent as a result of gradual, unguided change, which includes not only changes occurring as a result of natural selection but also neutral change.)

The terms of the original challenge issued by kairosfocus were as follows:

Compose your summary case for darwinism (or any preferred variant that has at least some significant support in the professional literature, such as punctuated equilibria etc) in a fashion that is accessible to the non-technical reader — based on empirical evidence that warrants the inference to body plan level macroevolution — in up to say 6,000 words [a chapter in a serious paper is often about that long]. Outgoing links are welcome so long as they do not become the main point. That is, there must be a coherent essay, with

(i) an intro,
(ii) a thesis,
(iii) a structure of exposition,
(iv) presentation of empirical warrant that meets the inference to best current empirically grounded explanation [–> IBCE] test for scientific reconstructions of the remote past,
(v) a discussion and from that
(vi) a warranted conclusion.

Your primary objective should be to show in this way, per IBCE, why there is no need to infer to design from the root of the Darwinian tree of life — cf. Smithsonian discussion here – on up (BTW, it will help to find a way to resolve the various divergent trees), on grounds that the Darwinist explanation, as extended to include OOL, is adequate to explain origin and diversification of the tree of life. A second objective of like level is to show how your thesis is further supported by such evidence as suffices to warrant the onward claim that is is credibly the true or approximately true explanation of origin and body-plan level diversification of life; on blind watchmaker style chance variation plus differential reproductive success, starting with some plausible pre-life circumstance.

It would be helpful if in that essay you would outline why alternatives such as design, are inferior on the evidence we face.

Here is Petrushka’s reply:

Evolution is the better model because it can be right or wrong, and its rightness or wrongness can be tested by observation and experiment.

For evolution to be true, molecular evolution must be possible. The islands of function must not be separated by gaps greater than what we observe in the various kinds of mutation. This is a testable proposition.

For evolution to be true, the fossil record must reflect sequential change. This is a testable proposition.

For evolution to be true, the earth must be old enough to have allowed time for these sequential changes. This is a testable proposition.

Evolution has entailments. It is the only model that has entailments. It is either right or wrong, and that is a necessary attribute of any theory or hypothesis.

Evolution is a better model for a second reason. It seeks regularities.

Regularity is the set of physical causes that includes uniform processes, chaos, complexity, stochastic events, and contingency. Regularity can include physical laws, mathematical expressions that predict relationships among phenomena. Regularity can include unpredictable phenomena, such as earthquakes, volcanoes, turbulence, and the single toss of dice.

Regularity can include unknown causes, as it did when the effects of radiation were first observed. It includes currently mysterious phenomena such as dark matter and energy. The principle has been applied to the study of psychic phenomena.

Regularity can include design, so long as one can talk about the methods and capabilities of the designer. One can study spider webs and bird nests and crime scenes and ancient pottery, because one can observe the agents producing the designed objects.

The common threads in all of science are the search for regularities and the insistence that models must have entailments, testable implications. Evolution is the only theory meeting these criteria.

One could assert that evolution is true, but it is more important to say it is a testable model. That is the minimum requirement to be science.

PS:

My references are the peer-reviewed literature. We can take them one by one, if kairosfocus deems it necessary to claim the publishing journals have overlooked errors of fact or interpretation.

PPS:

To make Dembski’s explanatory filter relevant, one must demonstrate that natural history is insufficient. So I will entertain ID arguments that can cite the actual history of the origin of life and point out the place where intervention was required or where some deviation from regular process occurred.

Same for complex structures such as flagella. Cite the actual history and point out where a saltation event occurred.

Or cite any specific reproductive event in the history of life and point out the discontinuity between generations.

PPPS:

If CSI or any of its variants are to be cited, please discuss whether different living things have different quantities of CSI. For example, does a human have more CSI than a mouse? Than an insect? Than an onion? Please show your calculation.

Alternatively, discuss whether a variant within a species can be shown to have more or less CSI than another variant. Perhaps a calculation of the CSI in Lenski’s bacteria before and after adaptation.

These are just proposed examples. Any specific calculation would be acceptable, provided it can provide a direct demonstration of different quantities of CSI in different organisms.

In his original challenge, kairosfocus promised:

I will give you two full days of comments before I post any full post level response; though others at UD will be free to respond in their own right.

So let’s hear it from viewers. What do readers think?

Comments
And wrt the "bottom-up" vs "top-down" part, guess who said the following:
It seems to me that what the “code skeptics” are saying is that if we can account for the origin of the genetic code in terms of either bottom-up processes (e.g. unknown chemical principles that make the code a necessity), or bottom-up constraints (i.e. a kind of selection process that occurred early in the evolution of life, and that favored the code we have now), then we can dispense with the code metaphor. The ultimate explanation for the code has nothing to do with choice or agency; it is ultimately the product of necessity. In responding to the “code skeptics,” we need to keep in mind that they are bound by their own methodology to explain the origin of the genetic code in non-teleological, causal terms. They need to explain how things happened in the way that they suppose. Thus if a code-skeptic were to argue that living things have the code they do because it is one which accurately and efficiently translates information in a way that withstands the impact of noise, then he/she is illicitly substituting a teleological explanation for an efficient causal one. We need to ask the skeptic: how did Nature arrive at such an ideal code as the one we find in living things today? By contrast, a “top-down” explanation of life goes beyond such reductionistic accounts. On a top-down account, it makes perfect sense to say that the genetic code has the properties it has because they help it to withstand the impact of noise while accurately and efficiently translating information. The “because” here is a teleological one. A teleological explanation like this ties in perfectly well with intelligent agency: normally the question we ask an agent when they do something is: “Why did you do it that way?” The question of how the agent did it is of secondary importance, and it may be the case that if the agent is a very intelligent one, we might not even understand his/her “How” explanation. But we would still want to know “Why?” And in the case of the genetic code, we have an answer to that question. We currently lack even a plausible natural process which could have generated the genetic code. On the other hand, we know that intelligent agents can generate codes. The default hypothesis should therefore be that the code we find in living things is the product of an Intelligent Agent.
Nope, it wasn't me although I definitely agree with that. click here That is another reason I am pretty sure we (VJT and myself) are just talking past each other wrt TSZ "challenge".Joe
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
12:05 PM
12
12
05
PM
PDT
My first reaction after reading Petrushka's essay is that he has essentially thrown in the towel. He is admitting that there is nothing to support his beliefs. Otherwise he would be providing evidence. Welcome to the ID camp, Petrushka, where we base our ideas on scientific evidence.jerry
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
11:47 AM
11
11
47
AM
PDT
Related to being in Africa and rhinos. Apparently ground rhino horn powder are a passion for many in Asia, especially China. There is supposedly someone who has accumulated large amounts of this rhino horn powder and is paying poachers just to kill the rhinos so his stash get more valuable. He doesn't care if he gets the rhino horn, only that the supply is made smaller. About one rhino a day is killed in Kruger by poachers. Also one guide told us they shoot poachers on the spot if they are killing an animal, usually elephants and rhinos. They realize that these poachers are destroying their future livelihood.jerry
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
11:42 AM
11
11
42
AM
PDT
niwrad @42:
If “seeing” by eyes is the conditio sine qua non of knowledge, then half of modern science is not knowledge and is not believable. Have you ever seen, say, an electron, a black hole, a quark, a multiverse…?
Excellent point. And taking this further, even the things that we do see may be illusory. Which takes us to the Cartesian conjecture, "I think, therefore I am".Mapou
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
11:40 AM
11
11
40
AM
PDT
And just to further support my claims: ID the future
Critics of intelligent design theory often throw this question out thinking to highlight a weakness in ID. Richards shows that the theory's inability to identify the designer is not a weakness, but a strength. ID does not identify the designer is because ID limits its claims to those which can be established by empirical evidence. As CSC Senior Fellow Dr. Michael Behe puts it: " [A] scientific argument for design in biology does not reach that far. Thus while I argue for design, the question of the identity of the designer is left open."
Joe
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
11:36 AM
11
11
36
AM
PDT
There is only one issue in evolution and that is the origin of new alleles and their corresponding proteins. In OOL there is the issue of where did all the complexity in the cell come from which can be thought of as a similar issue. Each had to use a slow building process. OOL is the more challenging one because of the complicated protein/RNA entities that are used for transcription and translation. It seems just the the origination of the ribosome complex is off the charts but the Darwinist believe it just magically appeared in a short time 3.6 billion years ago. But to get to the point of the OP. Molecular evolution must be true. But the problem for the Darwinist is that every new allele for a protein must leave a genetic trail and will be available in the genome. Also the process that generates the new alleles must have millions of failures also. There should be examples in the various genomes of DNA sequence that did not make it to a new allele. I do not know if I am being clear but if a new allele appears then there should be lots of evidence in related species of this sequence failing to make it to the functional allele. For example, Nick Matzke made a big point that horse and rhinos were once descended from a common ancestor. If that is true, then there should lots of evidence in either species of failed genomic sequences that came to fruition in the other species. So the key to proving the Darwinist proposition is to find the forensic trail in the various genomes. This will get easier as literally tens of thousands of genomes for a species are mapped and compared. The non coding sequences will be the most important in such a project because it is here that evidence of new or failed sequences will appear. Then it will be the job to look for these failed sequences in other species to show that they did not make it to a functional allele. The whole basis of Darwinian evolution is that these alleles develop slowly but they do not appear out of nowhere. There must be evidence of the failures some place in related species in order for Darwinian evolution to be true. It is hot and steamy from Victoria Falls in Zimbabwe in Central Africa and I have contracted a Jungle fever which is why I even dared waste time and looked at this.jerry
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
11:31 AM
11
11
31
AM
PDT
-
Intelligent design begins with a seemingly innocuous question: Can objects, even if nothing is known about how they arose, exhibit features that reliably signal the action of an intelligent cause? Wm. Dembski
Yes, they can. Most, if not all, anti-IDists always try to force any theory of intelligent design to say something about the designer and the process involved BEFORE it can be considered as scientific. This is strange because in every use-able form of design detection in which there isn’t any direct observation or designer input, it works the other way, i.e. first we determine design (or not) and then we determine the process and/ or designer. IOW any and all of our knowledge about the process and/ or designer comes from first detecting and then understanding the design. IOW reality dictates the the only possible way to make any determination about the designer(s) or the specific process(es) used, in the absence of direct observation or designer input, is by studying the design in question. If anyone doubts that fact then all you have to do is show me a scenario in which the designer(s) or the process(es) were determined without designer input, direct observation or by studying the design in question. If you can't than shut up and leave the design detection to those who know what they are doing. This is a virtue of design-centric venues. It allows us to neatly separate whether something is designed from how it was produced and/ or who produced it (when, where, why):
“Once specified complexity tells us that something is designed, there is nothing to stop us from inquiring into its production. A design inference therefore does not avoid the problem of how a designing intelligence might have produced an object. It simply makes it a separate question.” Wm. Dembski- pg 112 of No Free Lunch
Stonehenge- design determined; further research to establish how, by whom, why and when. Nasca Plain, Peru- design determined; further research to establish how, by whom, why and when. Puma Punku- design determined; further research to establish how, by whom, why and when. Any artifact (archeology/ anthropology)- design determined; further research to establish how, by whom, why and when- that is unless we have direct observation and/ or designer input. Fire investigation- if arson is determined (ie design); further research to establish how, by whom, why and when- that is unless we have direct observation and/ or designer input. An artifact does not stop being an artifact just because we do not know who, what, when, where, why and how. But it would be stupid to dismiss the object as being an artifact just because no one was up to the task of demonstrating a method of production and/ or the designing agent. And even if we did determine a process by which the object in question may have been produced it does not follow that it will be the process used. As for the people who have some "God phobia": Guillermo Gonzalez tells AP that “Darwinism does not mandate followers to adopt atheism; just as intelligent design doesn't require a belief in God.” (As a comparison no need to look any further than abiogenesis and evolutionism. Evolutionitwits make those separate questions even though life’s origin bears directly on its subsequent diversity. And just because it is a separate question does not hinder anyone from trying to answer either or both. Forget about a process except for the vague “random mutations, random genetic drift, random recombination culled by natural selection”. And as for a way to test that premise “forgetaboutit”.) For more information please read the following: Who Designed the Designer? (only that which had a beginning requires a cause) Mechanisms in Context Intellegent Design is about the DESIGN not the designer(s). The design exists in the physical world and as such is open to scientific investigation. All that said we have made some progress. By going over the evidence we infer that our place in the cosmos was designed for (scientific) discovery. We have also figured out that targeted searches are very powerful design mechanisms when given a resource-rich configuration space. Intelligent Design is the study of patterns in nature that are best explained as the result of intelligence. -- William A. DembskiJoe
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
11:23 AM
11
11
23
AM
PDT
scordova #3
So I accept ID is true, that the Designer is God, that is a superior theory, but I also acknowledge the hypothesis has its challenges in terms of believability because of the absence of seeing the Designer.
If "seeing" by eyes is the conditio sine qua non of knowledge, then half of modern science is not knowledge and is not believable. Have you ever seen, say, an electron, a black hole, a quark, a multiverse...?niwrad
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
11:19 AM
11
11
19
AM
PDT
gpuccio- OK as long as we agree that those questions are irrelevant to the detection and study of design (in nature). My point is we may never be able to answer those first 4 questions. The designer(s) is (are) way above our pay grade and so are the methods used. As I said we still don't know the who, how and why of Stonehenge and that is something that is within our capabilities. We may be able to figure a way it could have been manufactured but that doesn't mean it will be the way it was. The more important questions to answer after we have determined design is "how does it work" and "can we fix it if it malfunctions". The people who need to know the who and how ain't interested in science as they require proof, which isn't part of science. If we knew the who and how we wouldn't have a design inference. Design would be a given.Joe
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
05:57 AM
5
05
57
AM
PDT
Joe: It's just a question of words. You use "ID" to mean the design inference. I agree that questions about the nature of the designer are not necessary for the inference itself. I use "ID" to mean the ID paradigm and the specific ID theory for biological information. As a general paradigm or theory, all possible entailments and further questions are part of the theory itself. I think we essentially agree.gpuccio
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
05:40 AM
5
05
40
AM
PDT
gpuccio:
First of all, I don’t agree with Joe that they are “irrelevant” to ID. I can agree that the first two, and maybe the third, are not necessary for the design inference. The other three are part of the design inference itself, and however, all of them are pertinent issues that should be part of any design paradigm for biological information.
Wm Dembski in "No Free Lunch" (p111-12) says that they are separate questions- that is separate from ID. And that is because in order to answer those questions we must first determine design is present and then study it and any other relevant evidence. In the absence of direct observation or designer input, the only possible way to make any scientific determination about the who, how, why, when and where, is by studying the design and all relevant evidence. That is how it is done in archaeology, forensic science and SETI. And again Dembski states that ID does not prevent people from attempting to answer those questions. And the fact that those questions exist proves that ID is NOT a scientific dead-end.Joe
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
04:29 AM
4
04
29
AM
PDT
SC: I have responded to Ewert, here. KFkairosfocus
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
04:05 AM
4
04
05
AM
PDT
F/N: The pivotal for the PPPS issue is, does a mouse or a trilobite or an acorn worm or a flowering plant, or a sponge or a fungus on a tree stump or a sea urchin, or a eukaryote etc, at origin, exhibit an increment in dFSCI and/or FSCO/I in order to come into existence, this being a threshold of 500 - 1,000 bits? Blatantly, yes. That means, debates on copies (and copies imply FSCO/I-rich copying mechanism) are irrelevant, the issue is that origin of novel FSCO/I requires explanation, including origin of copying mechanism. For instance at OOL, that means a von Neumann Self Replicator (vNSR) has to be explained on physics and chemistry of a pond, a volcano ocean vent, a gas giant moon or a comet etc, Tour's challenge no 1 -- the molecular nanocar guy. At OOBPs that means the increment to the new info, so there is room for the overlap between human and kangaroo genomes, but also we have to account for the distinctive verbal language using ability of humans including vocal tract, auditory systems and brain processing, as well as how all of this becomes fixed in a population. I assure you 500 bits of code is peanuts to do any significant cybernetic entity. KFkairosfocus
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
03:45 AM
3
03
45
AM
PDT
129,935. VJT, in two weeks or so, your page has put on coming on 100 k hits. New phenomenon, and I don't doubt it helped trigger the attempt we are discussing in this thread. KFkairosfocus
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
03:32 AM
3
03
32
AM
PDT
The roosters here in Montserrat say, good day ahead. KFkairosfocus
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
03:30 AM
3
03
30
AM
PDT
F/N: P's PPS is a question-begging turnabout that dodges the fundamental origins/historical science challenge. Namely, we did not see the remote past of origins, nor do we have generally accepted record. Therefore we are forced to observe traces in the present and explore characteristic causal factors that have demonstrated capability to generate materially similar effects -- the vera causa principle -- and then we can reconstruct the past from that as a model explanation per IBCE. We confront FSCO/I in life and particularly dFSCI, digital, functionally specific coded complex information. Per vera causa, the ONLY empirically warranted factor capable of creating such is design. If you deny that, kindly provide a clear case in point that does not let design in the back door by failing to lock the door properly. We have every inductive logic, epistemic right to then explain dFSCI in life on like causes like. To overturn this -- as has been pointed out thousands of times so the twistabout is willful -- you will need to show vera causa on the behalf of blind chance and mechanical necessity, creating dFSCI at or beyond 500 bits, i.e. solve the blind search needle in haystack problem for a space of 3.27 * 10^150 configs, without injecting active info, setting up an oracle, using foresight etc. And if you want to suggest the cosmos builds in search algors in physics, that steps you up to search for search. A search being a subset of a set, the S4S config space is the power set of the first space, of cardinality 2 ^ [3.27*10^150]. That is, the problem exponentiates. KFkairosfocus
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
03:29 AM
3
03
29
AM
PDT
UB: I am looking forward to seeing your site too! :)gpuccio
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
03:23 AM
3
03
23
AM
PDT
Dionisio: Beautiful clear blue sky and sunny day here too (Italy). Have a good day.gpuccio
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
03:23 AM
3
03
23
AM
PDT
F/N: It strikes me that trying to suss out the motives, capabilities, strategies, styles etc of designers, design teams or whatever involved is an abductive, cumulative inference exercise. As such, I would bring to bear both biological and cosmological evidence and reasoning, starting from our evidently fine tuned cosmos in which rooted in the physics, H, He O and C are the 1st 4 elements with N close. As in big clue. The first gives us stars, the second the periodic table, the third, and fourth, water and organic chemistry, the fifth for our galaxy, amino acids and the protein family. That to my mind points to cosmological design towards life on planets in Galactic Habitable Zones, in circumstellar habitable zones, implicating powerful, sophisticated, skilled design long before life enters the picture as such. So, even were it shown that "blind" mechanisms can work with the ingredients we are already in the context of cosmological programming. Mix in contingency of the observed cosmos and its material constituents and multiply by evident design and we are looking at contingent vs necessary being root cause issues . . . and yes such are epistemology, logic and phil, consequential on crossing the border. With a necessary being at root even through multiverse speculations. Such a necessary being is of independent existence (no dependence on on/off enabling causal factors), and a serious candidate is either impossible (mutually contradictory attributes) or actual. To make simple: can 2 not exist, did it have a beginning, etc? 2 + 3 = 5? That points to eternal mind with power to conceive and call a material cosmos into being as a very serious candidate root of being. And nope, flying spaghetti monsters or pink unicorns etc are not serious candidates. In this context, biological world evidence fits into that picture, first set the cosmological stage then populate it with actors and let the play begin. Of course, all of this has long since been put on the table, but we are dealing with determined objectors who too often give the impression of simply pushing strings of favourite talking points rather than seriously grappling with evidence and issues in dialogue. KFkairosfocus
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
03:12 AM
3
03
12
AM
PDT
Upright BiPed @ 23
Dr Torely, instead of...
Just a minor observation, unrelated to the subject being discussed: are the letters 'l' and 'e' in their correct position within the referred name? isn't it Dr Torley ? It's around 10:45am here in this part of Europe. Beautiful clear blue sky sunny day. Y'all have a good day too.Dionisio
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
02:44 AM
2
02
44
AM
PDT
UB: Go, go, go, mon! Let's see that site! Give us the links! Make sure to link UD and put in glossary and FAQs as well as weak argument rebuttals. Do you plan a where to go from here onward links, refs and notes page? A vid clips section? News & views blog? Forum? Etc etc etc? Tell us, mon. KFkairosfocus
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
02:43 AM
2
02
43
AM
PDT
PS: Impedance matching at interfaces is a significant systems building challenge, in ever so many ways.kairosfocus
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
02:26 AM
2
02
26
AM
PDT
Joe & VJT: Can I suggest that both have a point? We do often start at a global, encapsulating block diagram level in designs of complex systems. But, that is because we have also worked out the device physics (and here, chemistry), the fit, organisation and function of first level circuits, networks, components, sub-assemblies etc, and have further worked out protocols and issues of interfacing, impedance matching, coupling, co-ordinating etc. So there are three tiers, each with significant challenges that have to be simultaneously solved and solved for the lifespan of the entity. BTW, that is also where embryology and its analogues become important in bio systems: start from one cell and self assemble. A major engineering challenge if ever I have seen one. Brings us full circle to the von Neumann Kinetic self replicator architecture and its layers of irreducibly complex aspects. Including, codes and language to store the blueprints. Which means, we have to sort out the OOL problem, too. Tour has a serious point, as a molecules up man. So did Paley in his Ch 2 that usually does not come up in the dismissive remarks I have seen. KFkairosfocus
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
02:24 AM
2
02
24
AM
PDT
F/N: Just to pick another point: P: >> For evolution to be true, the earth must be old enough to have allowed time for these sequential changes. This is a testable proposition. >> H'mm, wasn't it a pop genetics based result that to fix two co-ordinated muts in a mammal line with several years generational span and a reasonable scale of pop, would take 200+ mn years? Wasn't it also a finding presented by Sternberg that whale evo faced similar challenges? Isn't it the case that ape to man is supposedly 6 - 10 MY, and that on 2% of 3 bn bases we are talking 60 mn bases? (As in up to 120 mn bits.) So, is a timeline that puts our galaxy at say 12 BY, and our solar system at least a 2nd gen, pop I . . . yes, they got it back ways around . . . star with high metallicity, dated 4.6 BY on the H-R pattern even near the relevant blind watchmaker mechanism ballpark, with realistic mut rates? In short, it looks like time available is a challenge for huimans, whales and of course the Cambrian revo. That last would need, dozens of times, 10 - 100+ mn bits of fresh genetic info. And we have not touched the islands of function challenge on this, that would be in a cumulative micro evo context. For islands, I simply point to GP's point on isolated protein clusters in AA sequence space. Remember, this is common even between species deemed closely related. So, even giving for argument the idea of a vast connected continent of functional forms that can be incrementally traversed, the time to credibly do so is an open question. And of course, the vera causa directly observed case in point of such OOBP cumulative descent with mods is: _________ , published by: ________ , and with recognition of authors: _______ . KFkairosfocus
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
02:11 AM
2
02
11
AM
PDT
The code is a set of context specific regularities (i.e. relationships) established in a local system. Because of this they cannot be measured, only demonstrated. They are established by the proteins, aminoacyl tRNA synthetases, which I refer to as the protocols in the semiotic argument. Here is a short clip from my upcomming website:
The onset of recorded information No matter which theory one follows regarding the Origin of Life, there is one thing that all observers can be certain of. Prior to the organization of the first living cell on earth, unique physical conditions had to arise to make that organization possible. These conditions are brought about by the presence of two sets of physical objects operating in a very special system. In order to organize the cell, a set of representations and a set of protocols must arise to bridge the (necessary) discontinuity between the medium of genetic information and its resulting effects. One set must encode the information and the other set must establish what the result of that encoding will be. These are the physical necessities of the system. But because the organization of the system must also preserve the discontinuity, a group of relationships are established that otherwise wouldn't exist, producing effects which are not derivable from the material make-up of the system. These unique conditions are the inexorable mandate of translation (which were proposed in theory and confirmed by experiment). This system is something that the living cell shares with every other instance of translated information ever known to exist. It’s the first irreducibly complex organic system on earth, and from it, all other organic systems follow. Moreover, it is specifically not the product of Darwinian evolution - it's the origin of life's capacity to change and adapt over time. It marks the rise of the genome, and the starting point of heredity. Not only must these representations and protocols arise within an inanimate environment, but the details of their construction must be simultaneously encoded in the very information that they make possible. Without these things, life on earth would simply not exist.
Upright BiPed
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
01:45 AM
1
01
45
AM
PDT
GP at 22 I agree completely.Upright BiPed
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
01:16 AM
1
01
16
AM
PDT
...Intelligent Design theory needs to say more about the Designer in order to generate a scientifically testable. I make the following assumptions about the Designer (Whom I believe to be God, although I would not claim to be able to prove this belief scientifically):
I trust I am not the only one who sees the general problem inherent in this statement. Dr Torely, instead of promoting the idea that ID must make claims about the designer (claims it cannot support) can you please do ID the simple favor of just saying that you personally wish to make those claims? That way we can keep the legitamate scientific claims of ID separated from the spurious claims that some feel compelled to make, as well as those that serve the larger interest of ID critics.Upright BiPed
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
01:13 AM
1
01
13
AM
PDT
Joe: I perfectly agree with your #15. Absolutely true. Let me repeat your main, important statement: The DNA is NOT the code- the code is the rule for converting the DNA into a polypeptide. As a piece of information, I would remind here where the rule is really "written" in the biological context. The rule is mainly in the 20 Aminoacyl tRNA synthetases, 20 very big and complex proteins, universal proteins, which couple each codon in tRNAs with the correct aminoacid. 20 proteins, each of them a very big and complex molecule (length range about 300 - 1100 AAs). That's a lot of dFSCI, just at the beginning of the process that reads the information in DNA!gpuccio
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
01:07 AM
1
01
07
AM
PDT
VJT: Just my view about Richard Hughes' "questions". 1)Who is / was the designer? 2)What was their motivation(s)? 3)What was their method of fabrication? 4)How many design interventions were there? 5)What specifically was designed? 6)What specifically wasn’t designed? First of all, I don't agree with Joe that they are "irrelevant" to ID. I can agree that the first two, and maybe the third, are not necessary for the design inference. The other three are part of the design inference itself, and however, all of them are pertinent issues that should be part of any design paradigm for biological information. The answer to the last three is very easy because, as I said, they are part of the design inference itself. So: 4)How many design interventions were there? Answer: We can infer design for each context in natural history where new dFSCI (CSI) appears in biological beings. So, OOL, the Cambrian explosion, and the appearance of each new protein superfamily are all good contexts for a design inference, and therefore for the legitimate hypothesis of a specific design intervention. 5)What specifically was designed? Any object that exhibits specific, new dFSCI for the first time. 6) What specifically wasn’t designed? The correct answer is: for any object that does not exhibit dFSCI (or CSI) we have no reason to make a design inference. There is no scientific reason to believe that those objects are designed. So, let's go to the difficult ones: 1)Who is / was the designer? There is no final empirically supported answer to that, at least for now. We can certainly make hypotheses. The only thing that any hypothesis compatible with ID should include is the idea of a conscious intelligent being (or many of them) as the designer. Each hypothesis should be empirically tested, as far as that is possible. 2)What was their motivation(s)? Again, we don't know at present. The same as for point 1. But here, some more specific hypotheses can be done, IMO, if not for the motivation for the whole existence of biological beings (which remains more of a philosophical issue, at present), certainly for many specific patterns in biological design. For example, I have many times suggested that the main motivation apparently behind the proliferation of complexity in biological beings seems to be the desire/necessity to explore new possible functions, which cannot be implemented with the existing complexity. It is also true, as often suggested by "design enemies", that at least part of the observable biological design seems to be "destructive", or at least apparently cruel, for our concepts. All those facts should be considered in making hypotheses about motivations. But I believe that this issue remains at present vastly philosophical. 3)What was their method of fabrication? This is the most interesting among the "big questions". Here, more specific scientific approaches are already, at least in part, in the range of our discussion. I would split that question in two parts: 3a) How does the designer interact with biological matter to design new objects? 3b) What specific method of function implementation has been used? My answers: 3a is obviously related to our hypotheses about the identity and nature of the designer. However, if we exclude the only reasonable scenario for a physical designer (aliens), other scenarios are likely to hypothesize non physical designers. That is also my personal position, as often stated here. In that case, the question of how a non physical consciousness can interact with matter is certainly pertinent. It is not a purely philosophical question. It has a definite scientific aspect. For all those that believe (like me) that there is no possible explanation of the empirical fact of the existence subjective consciousness in terms of objective arrangements of matter, the problem is similar to the old problem of how can we (human conscious beings) interact with our brain and body (matter). That problem is difficult, but it has been addressed may times in scientific form. Quantum scenarios are at present, IMO, the best hypothesis. My point is: what works to explain the consciousness/matter interaction in human beings is the most natural choice to try to explain the consciousness/matter interaction in biological design, whoever the designer is. And, finally: 3b. This is the most empirically approachable part in the "big questions". The most obvious part seems to be: top down or bottom up? I don't believe we have any answer at present, but the answer is there, in the biological record of natural history: fossils, genomes, proteomes, anything that can add to our understanding of how and when new designed objects appeared. Indeed, the top down and bottom up theories have definite entailments in what can be observed in natural history. However, I believe that design, by definition, always has at least a partial top down component. Design starts as a representation and a desire in the consciousness of the designer. So, that is the "top" of the process, and it is at the beginning of the process itself. But a designer can certainly use bottom up approaches as part of his general top down strategy. We have many examples of that in human engineering. So, the two things are not mutually exclusive. In natural history, any demonstration of intelligent search using random variation as part of itself would be a good example of a bottom up strategy. So, RV + intelligent selection is a (partly) bottom up strategy. On the contrary, direct implementation of the information form conscious understanding (IOWs, directed mutation) would be an example of top down strategy. The facts will answer that, as always happens in science.gpuccio
March 12, 2014
March
03
Mar
12
12
2014
12:55 AM
12
12
55
AM
PDT
Mosse Dr @19, I like your arguing style even if you're preaching in the wilderness. Your pearls of wisdom will be trampled on because you're arguing with pigs.Mapou
March 11, 2014
March
03
Mar
11
11
2014
11:49 PM
11
11
49
PM
PDT
1 3 4 5 6

Leave a Reply