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A liberating voice on the feathered dragons

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Evolution: Education and Outreach is usually a disappointment. The journal could do with more philosophically savvy writers and more critical reviewers. The various contributions provide very little evidence that they understand Kuhn’s thesis about the way science develops. Most of the authors are working in a silo and fail to understand anyone who operates outside their tightly defined paradigm. A notable exception was Daniel R. Brooks (2011) who wrote on “The Extended Synthesis: Something Old, Something New” (blogged here). Another is the theme of this blog: a review of Alan Feduccia’s “Riddle of the Feathered Dragons” by Egbert Giles Leigh Jr. What caught my eye was the acknowledgement that Feduccia provides a “powerful criticism of prevailing views of bird evolution”. Leigh explains that he is relatively new to this theme, and he appears shocked to find out what an intense battlefield he was entering.

“I was blissfully unaware of the raging dispute over just what group of reptiles gave rise to birds. The introduction, which opens with bitter comments on uncritical media hype about dinosaur ‘discoveries’, and the first chapter, subtitled ‘Blame to Go Around’, cured me rather brutally of that ignorance.” (p.1)

Leigh summarises the arguments of John Ostrom, who championed the thesis that birds evolved from theropod dinosaurs. He knew that dinosaurs like Deinonychus had many similarities with Archaeopteryx, and he promoted the idea that flight evolved ground up. The ancestors of birds were considered to be runners, flapping their forelimbs to catch insects, thereby evolving the functionality for flapping flight. Leigh reports Feduccia’s objections to Ostrom, obviously impressed by his arguments, and noting that “More recently, the tide of evidence has turned strongly against Ostrom’s case.” Part of this evidence relates to protofeathers, and Leigh is positive about the case for them being collagen fibres. (For further on this, go here and here.)

“The discovery that the ‘protofeathers’ of the bipedal, cursorial theropod Sinosauropteryx were collagen fibers representing various stages of skin decay (Lingham-Soliar et al. 2007) undermined the argument that feathers evolved for purposes other than flight. If Anchiornis and Archaeopteryx were ancestral birds, it would appear that that feathers, which Feduccia shows to be complex, intricate structures well adapted for flight, evolved for that purpose. Feathered wings did not first evolve to be clapped together to catch insects, as Ostrom (1974, 1979) had proposed.” (p.2)

The reason why this is important relates to the major point being made by Leigh: “The argument between Feduccia and Ostrom was later engulfed by a methodological one.” This methodological issue concerns cladism. Rarely does one read words like this:

“This method seemed to lend an objective rigor to inferring phylogenies from phenotypic data. Many practitioners of this method proclaim that birds derive from theropod dinosaurs.” (p.2)

What follows is one of the best concise critiques of cladism that I have read. It deserves to be quoted in full, but this seems unwise – especially as the review is Open Access. The issue of protofeathers is located at the beginning of the critique. If they are interpreted as primitive feathers, they constrain the cladistic analysis towards the theropod-bird evolutionary pathway. If however they represent collagen fibres released during skin decay, the outcome is quite different. Leigh sees this as an example of scientists craving for an objectivity that brings authority, latching on to a method that seems to offer this, and losing sight of other data that disturbs their conclusions.

“More generally, the search for the one objective scientific method, where subjective judgments play no role, is a recipe for ignoring what is crucial. So it was for the psychologists who saw stimulus-response analyses as the way to make animal behavior an objective science by avoiding the subjective world of consciousness. As Changeux (1985, p. 97) remarked, ‘Concerned with eliminating subjectivity from scientific observation, behaviorism restricted itself to considering the relationship between variations in the environment (the stimulus) and the motor response that was provoked’. This approach does not let us see that animals have intentions and project their hypotheses onto the external world (Changeux and Ricoeur 2000, p. 42). Is this also true of those cladists who see a particular algorithm for inferring phylogenies from phenotypic data as the one way to practice objective taxonomy? Such methods demand that their practitioners ignore those kinds of data that their methods cannot handle. Indeed, as in the case of scientific Marxism, supposed recipes for objectivity can become dogmas defended with religious zeal (Polanyi 1962, pp. 227-228). Feduccia (p. 2) cites instances of this process among some cladists. This process can discourage interesting science, as did the Roman inquisition of the 17th century (Changeux and Ricoeur 2000, p. 35). Feyerabend’s (1975) Against Method is a salutary warning against seeking one scientific method, apt for solving all problems.” (p.3)

In his concluding words, Leigh points to the BAD advocates (Birds Are Dinosaurs) as “intellectual prisoners of their cladistic methodology”. Although he represents the minority BAND (Birds Are Not Dinosaurs), and although the controversy is draining, Feduccia is presented as the champion of authentic science.

“[H]is book is eloquent testimony to the role of connoisseurship in effective science. For all its bitterness, Feduccia’s is a liberating voice, a reminder that methodology should be our servant, not our unquestioned master.” (p.3)

It’s a great review and it deserves to be widely read. This is not just a controversy over dino-fuzz – it has the potential to stimulate thinking about the way science is practised.

Alan Feduccia’s Riddle of the Feathered Dragons: what reptiles gave rise to birds?
Egbert Giles Leigh Jr
Evolution: Education and Outreach, March 2014, 7:9, (3 pages)

This book’s author is at home in the paleontology, anatomy, physiology, and behavior of birds. Who could be more qualified to write on their origin and evolution? This book is unusually, indeed wonderfully, well and clearly illustrated: its producers cannot be praised too highly. It is well worth the while of anyone interested in bird evolution to read it. [snip]

Comments
Nothing in that post says tomkins deals with indels properly. Now, about those dna trees...wd400
June 2, 2014
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wd400, At least you read his paper, but you're wrong about him not considering indels. See https://uncommondescent.com/genetics/icc-2013-geneticist-jeff-tomkins-vs-evolutionary-biologist-who-got-laughed-off-stage/ -QQuerius
June 2, 2014
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BTW, I just read the Tomkins paper. The methods are very hard to follow, but it appears he get's his "similarity" stats by no allowing gaps in alignments. If that's the case then all he's done is shown that there are indels between human and chimp, which is well known.wd400
June 2, 2014
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I have. THe converstation is about a paper reporting molecular similarities in molecules associated with hearing in bats and dolphins and the and Piotr spoke specifically about high-frequency hearing, which is exactly what the molecues are involved in. Where would a lack of a fusion site in Chrom 2 leave us? With one less line of evidence that humans are apes. But there is a fusion site.
No, I don’t. It’s considered “strong” only because it’s the last unlikely option available. It’s like saying that because we can obviously see the answer is 2, the addends must have been 1 and 1 when we don’t know of the existence of decimals and negative numbers.
I'm not sure what this is mean to mean. Can you explain why the nucleotide trees match the species tree?
With closely related species, how can you differentiate between evolutionary progression and evolutionary convergence/parallelism (let alone detect another mechanism)?
Phylogeny and population genetics, mainly. The top story on UD right now is about detecting convergent evolution within a species...wd400
June 2, 2014
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wd400,
Again, no one has claimed “because selection pressures” explains the evolution of echolocation in bats ant dolphins and their kin.
Really? I was responding to Piotr@50. Read it for yourself.
Lol at the ‘subtle’ dig. I guess you meant you’d have to conclude many similarities between humans and chimps where the result of convergent evolution if Tomkins was right?
If chromosome 2 actually doesn't have a fusion site, what does that leave you? Kenneth Miller apparently said it would disprove evolution. I'm not sure I'd go that far, but aside from parallel evolution, what's left (you make essentially the same point later)? Maybe someone will discover some heretofore unknown DNA transduction path perhaps involving gut flora. Stranger things have happened.
Presumably whatever Tomkins does to DNA to get the 70% number would do the same to Gorilla and Orang data, so I dont’ think you’d get anything other than (human-(chimp-bonobo) as the relationship between species.
If you'd watched the video, you'd know what he said he's planning to do next. ;-)
Can you explain the discordance between DNA trees and protein trees in the PLOS Genetics paper via some mechanism other than convergent evolution? Do you at least admit this is a strong signal of evolutionary convergence?
No, I don't. It's considered "strong" only because it's the last unlikely option available. It's like saying that because we can obviously see the answer is 2, the addends must have been 1 and 1 when we don't know of the existence of decimals and negative numbers. With closely related species, how can you differentiate between evolutionary progression and evolutionary convergence/parallelism (let alone detect another mechanism)? Would you deny the possibility of parallel evolution in isolated populations? -QQuerius
June 2, 2014
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Moreover, as to wd400 letting his assumptions dictate how he is willing to interpret the evidence (confirmation bias), the primary assumption that wd400 has (neo-Darwinism) is shown to be false: Peer-Reviewed Paper: Development Needs Ontogenetic Information that Cannot Arise from Neo-Darwinian Mechanisms - Casey Luskin - June 2, 2014 Excerpt: Jonathan Wells has published a new peer-reviewed scientific paper in the journal BIO-Complexity, "Membrane Patterns Carry Ontogenetic Information That Is Specified Independently of DNA." With over 400 citations to the technical literature, this well-researched and well-documented article shows that embryogenesis depends on crucial sources of information that exist outside of the DNA. This ontogenetic information guides the development of an organism, but because it is derived from sources outside of the DNA, it cannot be produced by mutations in DNA. Wells concludes that because the neo-Darwinian model of evolution claims that variation is produced by DNA mutations, neo-Darwinism cannot account for the origin of epigenetic and ontogenetic information that exists outside of DNA. (Read more here:) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/06/peer-reviewed_p_2086201.html moreover,,, "Where (chimps and humans) really differ, and they differ by orders of magnitude, is in the genomic architecture outside the protein coding regions. They are vastly, vastly, different.,, The structural, the organization, the regulatory sequences, the hierarchy for how things are organized and used are vastly different between a chimpanzee and a human being in their genomes." Raymond Bohlin (per Richard Sternberg) - 9:29 minute mark of video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/8593991/ HOW BIOLOGISTS LOST SIGHT OF THE MEANING OF LIFE — AND ARE NOW STARING IT IN THE FACE - Stephen L. Talbott - May 2012 Excerpt: “If you think air traffic controllers have a tough job guiding planes into major airports or across a crowded continental airspace, consider the challenge facing a human cell trying to position its proteins”. A given cell, he notes, may make more than 10,000 different proteins, and typically contains more than a billion protein molecules at any one time. “Somehow a cell must get all its proteins to their correct destinations — and equally important, keep these molecules out of the wrong places”. And further: “It’s almost as if every mRNA [an intermediate between a gene and a corresponding protein] coming out of the nucleus knows where it’s going” (Travis 2011),,, Further, the billion protein molecules in a cell are virtually all capable of interacting with each other to one degree or another; they are subject to getting misfolded or “all balled up with one another”; they are critically modified through the attachment or detachment of molecular subunits, often in rapid order and with immediate implications for changing function; they can wind up inside large-capacity “transport vehicles” headed in any number of directions; they can be sidetracked by diverse processes of degradation and recycling... and so on without end. Yet the coherence of the whole is maintained. The question is indeed, then, “How does the organism meaningfully dispose of all its molecules, getting them to the right places and into the right interactions?” The same sort of question can be asked of cells, for example in the growing embryo, where literal streams of cells are flowing to their appointed places, differentiating themselves into different types as they go, and adjusting themselves to all sorts of unpredictable perturbations — even to the degree of responding appropriately when a lab technician excises a clump of them from one location in a young embryo and puts them in another, where they may proceed to adapt themselves in an entirely different and proper way to the new environment. It is hard to quibble with the immediate impression that form (which is more idea-like than thing-like) is primary, and the material particulars subsidiary. Two systems biologists, one from the Max Delbrück Center for Molecular Medicine in Germany and one from Harvard Medical School, frame one part of the problem this way: "The human body is formed by trillions of individual cells. These cells work together with remarkable precision, first forming an adult organism out of a single fertilized egg, and then keeping the organism alive and functional for decades. To achieve this precision, one would assume that each individual cell reacts in a reliable, reproducible way to a given input, faithfully executing the required task. However, a growing number of studies investigating cellular processes on the level of single cells revealed large heterogeneity even among genetically identical cells of the same cell type. (Loewer and Lahav 2011)",,, And then we hear that all this meaningful activity is, somehow, meaningless or a product of meaninglessness. This, I believe, is the real issue troubling the majority of the American populace when they are asked about their belief in evolution. They see one thing and then are told, more or less directly, that they are really seeing its denial. Yet no one has ever explained to them how you get meaning from meaninglessness — a difficult enough task once you realize that we cannot articulate any knowledge of the world at all except in the language of meaning.,,, http://www.netfuture.org/2012/May1012_184.html#2bornagain77
June 2, 2014
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I take that back- I don't know anyone who thinks Special Creation allows for any entity but God to bring about life.Joe
June 2, 2014
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Special Creation, as most people I know understand the term, means only God can Create life from nonliving matter and energy.Joe
June 2, 2014
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HMMM, interesting, I'm the one accused of 'confirmation bias' when Darwinists are the ones who have more than demonstrated their willingness to manipulate data to fit their desired conclusion. ,,,, Even a secular paper admits the data is ripe for abuse: Guy Walks Into a Bar and Thinks He's a Chimpanzee: The Unbearable Lightness of Chimp-Human Genome Similarity - Sternberg - 2009 Excerpt: One can seriously call into question the statement that human and chimp genomes are 99% identical. For one thing, it has been noted in the literature that the exact degree of identity between the two genomes is as yet unknown (Cohen, J., 2007. Relative differences: The myth of 1% Science 316: 1836.). ,,, In short, the figure of identity that one wants to use is dependent on various methodological factors. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/05/guy_walks_into_a_bar_and_think.htmlbornagain77
June 2, 2014
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Well, that's a shield your beliefs from conflicting data while maintaining confirmation bias. But it really means there is no point talking to you, so I'll return to my older policy on that.wd400
June 2, 2014
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As I'm not qualified in the least to analyze the raw data, I have to look at whose work I trust the most. And given that Darwinists have had a bit of an issue with honesty in the past (understatement), then I will trust Dr. Tomkins work as to having more integrity. here are a few examples of the 'honesty issue' Darwinist have trouble with:
"Human baby with a tail, digitally manipulated image." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/05/heres_what_seem086161.html Darwin Lobbyists Defend Using Fraudulent Embryo Drawings in the Classroom - Casey Luskin - October 11, 2012 Excerpt: embryologist Michael Richardson, who called them "one of the most famous fakes in biology," or Stephen Jay Gould who said "Haeckel had exaggerated the similarities by idealizations and omissions," and that "in a procedure that can only be called fraudulent," Haeckel "simply copied the same figure over and over again." Likewise, in a 1997 article titled "Haeckel's Embryos: Fraud Rediscovered," the journal Science recognized that "[g]enerations of biology students may have been misled by a famous set of drawings of embryos published 123 years ago by the German biologist Ernst Haeckel." ,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/darwin_lobbyist_1065151.html Icons of Evolution 10th Anniversary: Haeckel's Embryos - January 2011 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAC807DAXzY The "Icons of Evolution" - video playlist - video http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3E68C794E1D66A08 EVOLUTION FORGERIES (For Human Evolution) - excerpts - Piltdown Man: An Orangutan Jaw and a Human Skull! (displayed for decades before exposed as fraud) Nebraska Man: A Single Pig Tooth! Ota Benga: The African Native Put Into a Cage! http://www.evolutiondeceit.com/chapter9.php "National Geographic magazine commissioned four artists to reconstruct a female figure from casts of seven fossil bones thought to be from the same species as skull 1470. One artist drew a creature whose forehead is missing and whose jaws look vaguely like those of a beaked dinosaur. Another artist drew a rather good-looking modern African-American woman with unusually long arms. A third drew a somewhat scrawny female with arms like a gorilla and a face like a Hollywood werewolf. And a fourth drew a figure covered with body hair and climbing a tree, with beady eyes that glare out from under a heavy, gorilla-like brow." “Behind the Scenes,” National Geographic 197 (March, 2000): 140 picture - these artists "independently" produced the 4 very "different" ancestors you see here http://www.omniology.com/JackalopianArtists.html Paleoanthropology Excerpt: In regards to the pictures of the supposed ancestors of man featured in science journals and the news media Boyce Rensberger wrote in the journal Science the following regarding their highly speculative nature: "Unfortunately, the vast majority of artist's conceptions are based more on imagination than on evidence. But a handful of expert natural-history artists begin with the fossil bones of a hominid and work from there…. Much of the reconstruction, however, is guesswork. Bones say nothing about the fleshy parts of the nose, lips, or ears (or eyes). Artists must create something between an ape and a human being; the older the specimen is said to be, the more apelike they make it.... Hairiness is a matter of pure conjecture." http://conservapedia.com/Evolution#Paleoanthropology “We have all seen the canonical parade of apes, each one becoming more human. We know that, as a depiction of evolution, this line-up is tosh (i.e. nonsense). Yet we cling to it. Ideas of what human evolution ought to have been like still colour our debates.” Henry Gee, editor of Nature (478, 6 October 2011, page 34, doi:10.1038/478034a), Paleoanthropology Dr. Pilbeam also wrote the following regarding the theory of evolution and paleoanthropology : "I am also aware of the fact that, at least in my own subject of paleoanthropology, "theory" - heavily influenced by implicit ideas almost always dominates "data". ....Ideas that are totally unrelated to actual fossils have dominated theory building, which in turn strongly influence the way fossils are interpreted" http://conservapedia.com/Evolution#Paleoanthropology Contemplating Bill Nye’s 51 skulls slide - February 10, 2014 - with video Excerpt: David A. DeWitt, Biology & Chemistry chair at Liberty, knows a thing or two about skulls, and writes to say, ,,,, They were not shown with the same scale so the relative sizes are wrong, and they are not grouped or lined up in any clear order. They are mixed up by type of skull and by date, and the only label is the name of the individual skull. I suspect that this was deliberate.,,," "I can only conclude that the sole purpose of showing such a slide was to confuse and obfuscate, not educate.” https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/from-david-dewitt-at-liberty-u-contemplating-bill-nyes-51-skulls-slide/ etc.. etc..
With such shenanigans in the past, and good reason to believe their bias continues to heavily influence their handling of the data, it is hard for to see how anybody in their right mind could put their unquestioned trust in anything a Darwinists says about the evidence.bornagain77
June 2, 2014
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There's a whole database of raw sequencing data available to anyone who wants to play with it. If ~70% is the right number it should be easily reproducible... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/srawd400
June 2, 2014
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as to wd400 sniffing,,, "whatever Tomkins does to DNA to get the 70% number" HMMM what could he be doing? like, for instance, including data that Darwinists excluded because it did not fit their evolutionary bias? How could someone be so biased as to manipulate the genetic data to a desired conclusion!?! (snark off) Comprehensive Analysis of Chimpanzee and Human Chromosomes Reveals Average DNA Similarity of 70% by Jeffrey Tomkins on February 20, 2013 Excerpt: It is now clear that the genetic differences between humans and chimpanzees are far more extensive than previously thought; their genomes are not 98% or 99% identical (Preuss 2012, p. 10709). One of the major problems with past research in comparative DNA analysis between chimps and humans was recently reviewed in several reports (Bergman and Tomkins 2012; Tomkins and Bergman, 2012). They found that there is a great deal of preferential and selective treatment of the data being analyzed. In many cases, only the most promising data such as gene-rich sequences that exist in both species (homologs) is utilized from a much larger data pool. This pre-selected data is often further subjected to more filtering before being analyzed and discussed. Non-alignable regions and large gaps in DNA sequence alignments are also typically omitted, thus increasing the levels of reported similarity. https://answersingenesis.org/answers/research-journal/v6/comprehensive-analysis-of-chimpanzee-and-human-chromosomes/ also of note: Contradictory Trees: Evolution Goes 0 For 1,070 - Whif Excerpt: One of evolution’s trade secrets is its prefiltering of data to make it look good, but now evolutionists are resorting to postfiltering of the data as well.,,, There are profound contradictions between the different traits, and in a new attempt evolutionists just set a new record for failure: out of 1,070 genes, every single one contradicted the hoped for evolutionary tree, as well as each other. 1,070 different genes and 1,070 different evolutionary trees. Consequently evolutionists are now manipulating the data even more than before to obtain the desired results.,,, the typical strategy in such cases is simply to drop that particular gene from the data set. That big difference is, in a stroke, eliminated from the analysis. This is one type of prefiltering evolutionists use. Prefiltering is often thought of merely as cleaning up the data. But prefiltering is more than that, for built-in to the prefiltering steps is the theory of evolution. Prefiltering massages the data to favor the theory. The data are, as philosophers explain, theory-laden. But even prefiltering cannot always help the theory. For even cleansed data routinely lead to evolutionary trees that are incongruent (the opposite of consilience). As one study explained, the problem is so confusing that results “can lead to high confidence in incorrect hypotheses.” And although evolutionists thought that more data would solve their problems, the opposite has occurred. With the ever increasing volumes of data (particularly molecular data), incongruence between trees “has become pervasive.” This problem became all the more obvious in a new study that examined 1,070 different genes found in a couple dozen yeast species (yes, the data were prefiltered). All those genes taken together produced one evolutionary tree, but each of the 1,070 different genes produced a different tree—1,070 plus 1 different trees. It was, as one evolutionist admitted “a bit shocking.” Or as another evolutionist put it, “We are trying to figure out the phylogenetic relationships of 1.8 million species and can’t even sort out 20 [types of] yeast.” http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2013/06/contradictory-trees-evolution-goes-0.htmlbornagain77
June 2, 2014
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What arguments? I was replying to questions asked of me.wd400
June 2, 2014
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Silly arguments, wd400. What observations would disprove materialistic origins? By the same token you may infer that there is an as-of-yet unknown materialistic cause behind a phenomena that appears to lend itself to special creation. No matter how superfluous that materialistic inference might be, you could still make it.lifepsy
June 2, 2014
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Special creation, as most people understand the term at least, mean god did create life. Showing only life could only arise via a creating god would be proof of special creation, but not its definition. Finding henges could arise by erosion and other natural forces would provide an alternative explanation for stone henge. But that finding wouldn't be incompatible with the idea stone henge was designed and built (it would just make it less probable)wd400
June 2, 2014
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So in your mind making something superfluous isn't the same as being incompatible? Really? Showing that mother nature can produce Stonehenge's, ie making the designer superfluous for Stonehenge, is incompatible with the current understanding of Stonehenge's existence. Showing that a death can be accounted for via natural causes is incompatible with a murder.Joe
June 2, 2014
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Special Creation says that only God can Create Life. Also an eternal universe would be incompatible with Special Creation.Joe
June 2, 2014
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That would make special creation superfluous, but it wouldn't be incompatible with the finding.wd400
June 2, 2014
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wd400- If someone demonstrates that living organisms can arise from matter and energy via purely materialistic processes, that would be incompatible with special creation.Joe
June 2, 2014
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Joe, Tell what observation (not conclusion) is incompatible with special creation.wd400
June 2, 2014
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Querius
tributing similar “selection pressure” as the cause for the evolution of echolocation in two kinds of bats.... remains unanswered
Again, no one has claimed "because selection pressures" explains the evolution of echolocation in bats ant dolphins and their kin. These papers (and Piotr's comment about convergence) are about the particular molecules associated with hearing. There is an obvious advantage to good high-frequency hearing in a species that echolocates, so it's not suprising the same pressures on the gene encoding the molecule generated many of the same amino acid changes. It wouldn't be right to say "the repeated evolution of echolocation is not surprising because selection pressures", there's much more to it than that (and in fact, bat and dolphin echolocation are quite different).
To an astute observer, it would indicate a reductio ad absurdum argument.
Lol at the 'subtle' dig. I guess you meant you'd have to conclude many similarities between humans and chimps where the result of convergent evolution if Tomkins was right? Well, first he's not. The 98% identity of alignable sequences is just true and you are welcome to test it yourself - here's a databse full of sequences directly form sequencing projects. Presumably whatever Tomkins does to DNA to get the 70% number would do the same to Gorilla and Orang data, so I dont' think you'd get anything other than (human-(chimp-bonobo) as the relationship between species. Now, here's a real unanswered question. Can you explain the discordance between DNA trees and protein trees in the PLOS Genetics paper via some mechanism other than convergent evolution? Do you at least admit this is a strong signal of evolutionary convergence?wd400
June 2, 2014
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wd400:
Any observation is compatabile with special creation or “an intelligence”,
That's ignorance talking.Joe
June 2, 2014
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The BAD (Birds are Dinosaurs) advocates are vehement in their arguments and frequently scathing about those who are not persuaded by their reasoning and rhetoric. That is why I thought the review by Leigh well worth our attention, as it comes from a journal that normally follows the consensus. What we need to do, from time to time, is to stand back from the details and see the landscape. That is what I think Leigh has achieved in his review. If we can appreciate the points he makes, it might help us move towards a more evidence-based (and less theory-laden) approach to origins issues in general, not just the BAD/BAND issue in particular.David Tyler
June 2, 2014
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WD400@71,
Querius: Attributing similar “selection pressure” as the cause for the evolution of echolocation in two kinds of bats and toothed whales strains credibility when there are many non-echolocating bats and whales, not to mention nocturnal animals, benthic animals such as squid, etc., that did not develop cochlear enhancements (or the “melon” in toothed whales).
Remains unanswered.
WD400: I don’t know what “parallel human evolution” would mean, or how his supposed 70% identity could make an argument for it.
To an astute observer, it would indicate a reductio ad absurdum argument. The video that you couldn't be bothered to watch included the following information:
Excerpt: Three major pillars supporting a human-chimp link crashed in 2013. 1. Genetic similarity (70% instead of 98%) 2. beta-globin pseudogene (functional instead of leftover junk) 3. Chromosome 2 fusion site (encodes a functional feature within an important gene instead of a being a fusion site) All three key genetic pillars of human evolution (for Darwinists) turned out to be specious—overstatements based on ignorance of genetic function.
Which of course leaves only parallel or convergent evolution. You know, like echolocation in bats and whales. -QQuerius
June 1, 2014
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Oh, come on BA, even you you have to see the humour in someone whose entire MO is sending these link-laden posts getting snippy about "paying scant attention to the links"? Sometimes you have to laugh.wd400
June 1, 2014
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Mung@70 quipped,
I don’t understand the difficulty you’re having with basic biology. If not common ancestry, then common advantage. If not common ancestry nor common advantage, then different environment.
LOL. Exactly. It "musta" been the one, and if not, it "musta" been the other. It's the same with "living fossils" that survived millions of years unchanged because they musta been isolated. -QQuerius
June 1, 2014
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laugh if you will wd400,,,, but, as usual, I still see no real empirical evidence from you, only unsubstantiated declaration that Darwinian processes produced such widespread and 'optimal' convergence(s). ,,, But alas I'm sure, despite you NEVER having any real evidence to back up your claims, it will ultimately be because 'you just don't understand evolution'. This all would be funny, but old jokes turn sad quickly, especially when the fate of your soul is tied up in it all. Far more sad than either you or I realize right now.bornagain77
June 1, 2014
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BA,
Well, forgive me for paying scant attention to the links... Lol.
wd400
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Simon Conway Morris has a website documenting hundreds, if not thousands, of examples of 'convergence': Map Of Life – Simon Conway Morris http://www.mapoflife.org/browse/ Simon Conway Morris: “Fossil evidence demands a radical rewriting of evolution.” – March 2012 Excerpt: “The idea is this: that convergence – the tendency of very different organisms to evolve similar solutions to biological problems – is not just part of evolution, but a driving force. To say this is an unconventional view would be something of an understatement.” https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/simon-conway-morris-fossil-evidence-demands-a-radical-rewriting-of-evolution/ Of note; The bat’s echometer has more accuracy, more efficiency, less power consumption and less size than any artificial sonar constructed by engineers. The echometer cannot be installed into the bat in the afterward as a simple plug-in, rather echometer and brain had to be designed as a whole system from the beginning. The bionic antinomy of Darwinism Excerpt: For example, the bats have an echometer emitting 100 kHz supersonic pulses at a frequency of 30 times per second. These waves are reflected and distorted by the surrounding objects and their echoes are intercepted and elaborated by the bat to catch its prey and also just to get around. The signal processing of these echoes is so accurate to allow bats to fly, twisting, looping and zig-zagging through the air, into a completely dark room intersected by tens pianoforte strings without grazing them. The bat’s echometer has more accuracy, more efficiency, less power consumption and less size than any artificial sonar constructed by engineers. https://uncommondescent.com/biology/the-bionic-antinomy-of-darwinism/ A comparison of signal detection between an echolocating dolphin and an optimal receiver - 1989 Excerpt: The results of experiment II indicated that the dolphin required approximately 7.4 dB higherE e /N than an optimal detector to detect the phantom target. http://profiles.wizfolio.com/loisdankiewicz/publications/2260/27414/ A false killer whale adjusts its hearing when it echolocates.- 2008 Excerpt: the animal has an active 'automatic gain control' mechanism in her hearing based on both forward masking that balances outgoing pulse intensity and time between pulse and echo, and active hearing control. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18490386 Here is a cool animated video showing a sperm whale using 'designed' echolocation to hunt a giant squid: Sperm Whale Vs Giant Squid - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z2Lfxpi710 So please Forgive me for being disengaged from your links excuses as to why this is not devastating to Darwinian evolution, since, basically, it gets a bit boring dealing with just so stories.bornagain77
June 1, 2014
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