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A liberating voice on the feathered dragons

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Evolution: Education and Outreach is usually a disappointment. The journal could do with more philosophically savvy writers and more critical reviewers. The various contributions provide very little evidence that they understand Kuhn’s thesis about the way science develops. Most of the authors are working in a silo and fail to understand anyone who operates outside their tightly defined paradigm. A notable exception was Daniel R. Brooks (2011) who wrote on “The Extended Synthesis: Something Old, Something New” (blogged here). Another is the theme of this blog: a review of Alan Feduccia’s “Riddle of the Feathered Dragons” by Egbert Giles Leigh Jr. What caught my eye was the acknowledgement that Feduccia provides a “powerful criticism of prevailing views of bird evolution”. Leigh explains that he is relatively new to this theme, and he appears shocked to find out what an intense battlefield he was entering.

“I was blissfully unaware of the raging dispute over just what group of reptiles gave rise to birds. The introduction, which opens with bitter comments on uncritical media hype about dinosaur ‘discoveries’, and the first chapter, subtitled ‘Blame to Go Around’, cured me rather brutally of that ignorance.” (p.1)

Leigh summarises the arguments of John Ostrom, who championed the thesis that birds evolved from theropod dinosaurs. He knew that dinosaurs like Deinonychus had many similarities with Archaeopteryx, and he promoted the idea that flight evolved ground up. The ancestors of birds were considered to be runners, flapping their forelimbs to catch insects, thereby evolving the functionality for flapping flight. Leigh reports Feduccia’s objections to Ostrom, obviously impressed by his arguments, and noting that “More recently, the tide of evidence has turned strongly against Ostrom’s case.” Part of this evidence relates to protofeathers, and Leigh is positive about the case for them being collagen fibres. (For further on this, go here and here.)

“The discovery that the ‘protofeathers’ of the bipedal, cursorial theropod Sinosauropteryx were collagen fibers representing various stages of skin decay (Lingham-Soliar et al. 2007) undermined the argument that feathers evolved for purposes other than flight. If Anchiornis and Archaeopteryx were ancestral birds, it would appear that that feathers, which Feduccia shows to be complex, intricate structures well adapted for flight, evolved for that purpose. Feathered wings did not first evolve to be clapped together to catch insects, as Ostrom (1974, 1979) had proposed.” (p.2)

The reason why this is important relates to the major point being made by Leigh: “The argument between Feduccia and Ostrom was later engulfed by a methodological one.” This methodological issue concerns cladism. Rarely does one read words like this:

“This method seemed to lend an objective rigor to inferring phylogenies from phenotypic data. Many practitioners of this method proclaim that birds derive from theropod dinosaurs.” (p.2)

What follows is one of the best concise critiques of cladism that I have read. It deserves to be quoted in full, but this seems unwise – especially as the review is Open Access. The issue of protofeathers is located at the beginning of the critique. If they are interpreted as primitive feathers, they constrain the cladistic analysis towards the theropod-bird evolutionary pathway. If however they represent collagen fibres released during skin decay, the outcome is quite different. Leigh sees this as an example of scientists craving for an objectivity that brings authority, latching on to a method that seems to offer this, and losing sight of other data that disturbs their conclusions.

“More generally, the search for the one objective scientific method, where subjective judgments play no role, is a recipe for ignoring what is crucial. So it was for the psychologists who saw stimulus-response analyses as the way to make animal behavior an objective science by avoiding the subjective world of consciousness. As Changeux (1985, p. 97) remarked, ‘Concerned with eliminating subjectivity from scientific observation, behaviorism restricted itself to considering the relationship between variations in the environment (the stimulus) and the motor response that was provoked’. This approach does not let us see that animals have intentions and project their hypotheses onto the external world (Changeux and Ricoeur 2000, p. 42). Is this also true of those cladists who see a particular algorithm for inferring phylogenies from phenotypic data as the one way to practice objective taxonomy? Such methods demand that their practitioners ignore those kinds of data that their methods cannot handle. Indeed, as in the case of scientific Marxism, supposed recipes for objectivity can become dogmas defended with religious zeal (Polanyi 1962, pp. 227-228). Feduccia (p. 2) cites instances of this process among some cladists. This process can discourage interesting science, as did the Roman inquisition of the 17th century (Changeux and Ricoeur 2000, p. 35). Feyerabend’s (1975) Against Method is a salutary warning against seeking one scientific method, apt for solving all problems.” (p.3)

In his concluding words, Leigh points to the BAD advocates (Birds Are Dinosaurs) as “intellectual prisoners of their cladistic methodology”. Although he represents the minority BAND (Birds Are Not Dinosaurs), and although the controversy is draining, Feduccia is presented as the champion of authentic science.

“[H]is book is eloquent testimony to the role of connoisseurship in effective science. For all its bitterness, Feduccia’s is a liberating voice, a reminder that methodology should be our servant, not our unquestioned master.” (p.3)

It’s a great review and it deserves to be widely read. This is not just a controversy over dino-fuzz – it has the potential to stimulate thinking about the way science is practised.

Alan Feduccia’s Riddle of the Feathered Dragons: what reptiles gave rise to birds?
Egbert Giles Leigh Jr
Evolution: Education and Outreach, March 2014, 7:9, (3 pages)

This book’s author is at home in the paleontology, anatomy, physiology, and behavior of birds. Who could be more qualified to write on their origin and evolution? This book is unusually, indeed wonderfully, well and clearly illustrated: its producers cannot be praised too highly. It is well worth the while of anyone interested in bird evolution to read it. [snip]

Comments
willh @38: I don't think any of those changes was sudden. Some degree of skeletal pneumaticity (initially only in the skull) and the presence of airsacks seems to be common to all archosaurs, including crocodilians. In Ornithodira (the group that contains pterosaurs, dinosaurs and their close relatives), and possibly even earlier (see the links below) we find postcranial pneumaticity and "invasive" airsacks and diverticula (accompanying endothermy and a tendency towards bipedal locomotion). Note that two distantly related ornithodiran lineages (pterosaurs and birds) took to the air independently. It took some 90 million years for primitive ornithodirans to evolve into flying dinosaurs. The fossil record is of course imperfect and it's hard to document every little step, but the process seems to have been slow and gradual rather than dramatic. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22470520 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11402840Piotr
May 31, 2014
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re phoodoo's comment @ 37,,, Not that there could even be a world for us to comprehend if atheism were true,, Comprehensibility of the world Excerpt: ,,,Bottom line: without an absolute Truth, (there would be) no logic, no mathematics, no beings, no knowledge by beings, no science, no comprehensibility of the world whatsoever. https://uncommondescent.com/mathematics/comprehensibility-of-the-world/ ,, but it is amazing, as adept as atheists are at using there imagination to conjure up 'just so stories' at the drop of a hat, that atheists cannot visualize how absurd the world would be if it were possible for atheism to be true: What Would The World Look Like If Atheism Were Actually True? - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5486757/bornagain77
May 31, 2014
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Phoodoo:
How often do we see random accidental mutations for missing bones and airsacks for animals that don’t want them? Because in order for those that do use them to get them, they also need to sporadically pop-up in ALL species, in any location in their body..because according to you its simply random-and when the lucky one hits the spot, we keep it even longer, until the next lucky one.
You also miss some of the bones that were present in your ancestors (os penis, for example). If you are 35 or older, your sacral vertebrae are in all likelihood completely fused. Your tail has become reduced to 3-5 small vertebrae forming the coccyx. The facial bones of your skull are pneumatic and contain air-filled diverticula joined to the nasal cavity (as in most other mammals and in archosaurs).Piotr
May 31, 2014
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Didn’t Lamarck say this?
Not really. Lamarck' theory had animals striving toward some goal (so I guess he'd have therapods really wanting to fly). In fact, part of Darwin's theory of inheritance were more like the "use and disuse" scenario (and really a lot more like modern theories of trans-generational epigenetics than Lamarck's)wd400
May 31, 2014
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phoodoo @ 37 lol "There will be an awkward stage before this is fully formed, where they will have to breathe through their tail, thanks to a fortuitous snorkel mutation." LOL ====bornagain77
May 31, 2014
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JDD says
Piotr claims epigenetic cannot account for lasting effects past a few generations but that does not make much sense in particular scenarios (nor in the literature in fact pro-evo lit)
Which scenarios or papers? The reason people get excited about the possibility of trans-generational epigenetics is that is might make for rapid environmentall-induced change. But if such changes can fluctuate rapidally they can't contribute to long-term change.
but also how does the selfish gene explain instinct? How does a once non-flying bird gain the instincts to fly, glide, land…etc
Why do you think is a particular problem? This isn't just YEC-101 "everything is so complex and it has to happen all at once" is it?wd400
May 31, 2014
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The ancestors of birds were considered to be runners, flapping their forelimbs to catch insects, thereby evolving the functionality for flapping flight.
Didn't Lamarck say this?PaV
May 31, 2014
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Poitr wrote: There is ampole evidence of postcranial skeletal pneumaticity in dinosaurs, especially Saurischia (the group containing birds, but also non-avian theropods and sauropodomorphs). For example, sauropods (such as diplodocids and titanosaurs), which certainly couldn’t fly, had pneumatic vertebra and a system of air sacks and diverticulae. Far from causing any stress to them, the system offered thermoregulatory and respiratory advantages, and the added bonus of reducing body density. The extreme elongation of necks and tails in neosauropods would not have been possible without it ... Who said dinosaurs (and more especially theropods) had a low metabolism? ... I can’t, and therefore I won’t, give you a full account of anatomical and physiological developments in long-extinct animals. I wouldn't argue with whether or not such features existed in sauropods or theropods, but only as to how they acquired them. Like the question of developing such in birds, T-Rex and co have to answer to earlier lunged forbearer's getting different kit, or non-pneumatic skeletal origins. Again much more detail than supposition, drawn from related fossil remains, that provide little or no soft tissues structures, is required for say the lungs atleast. Yes a fully formed theropod with uni-directional lung flow and the necessary airsack and redirection of passage ways could be a fitter animal, though not because I say so. But I was not debating the fully functional form of T-Rex or say a Hawk. I am more concerned with the dramatic changes required from a wholly different 'wired' creature and specifically the how. It is the steady progression of a developing and wholly different lung, or muscle, or bone structure. Here is where the stress could be a factor, and not as I would agree, in the well developed animal forms. We both can examine fossil evidence, or even if the impossible happened, a fully functional theropod; we do that with modern avians now. It doesn't mean we can draw the slightest demonstrable conclusion as to it's long term development vis a vis origins. I could refer to modern human 'evolution in designs' when confronted with a lineage of modern machines or structures. They would demonstrate slight or more than slight changes over time. I may wonder as to the processes that produced these changes. But once I venture into the manufacturing world, I can see the how of the matter. This 'how' in regards to avians and theropods, cannot be done with the fossil record, and so far efforts to give us insight by real time experimentation, eludes Darwinian claims. Now I would suggest similarities in animal form is by design, to among other things, satisfy necessity. If high efficiency avian type lungs existed in theropods, it was a chosen and manufactured construct. But I do admit that I cannot show you the step by step creative process ... but neither can you demonstrate a Darwinian alternate in minutiae, as you politely agreed. It is an unfortunate but unavoidable fact for both of us. I would suggest though that despite this intractable dilemma, the demonstration of human originated creation, is a strong indication for something similar in biological origins. Darwinian claims have less examples as a positive indicator? I appreciate the link Poitr, and am interested in any information as to the biology of extinct species. And don't get 'stressed' as to spelling and such, I often strain my pre-post attempts through a word processor, but with little to show for it. My language gene probably suffered from an irreparable mutation hit at some point or something.willh
May 31, 2014
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Querius, I am pretty sure kangaroos are evolving to eventually be upside down. They will then become semi-aquatic, and when global warming hits, they will plant their nose underwater, and use their feet to attract dragon flies like a pseudo venus flytrap. Eventually they will mutate a sort of scuba bell housing around their upside down head. There will be an awkward stage before this is fully formed, where they will have to breathe through their tail, thanks to a fortuitous snorkel mutation.phoodoo
May 31, 2014
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LOL Q. Isn't it amazing that one of these predecessors flapped and suddenly was able to fly and their offspring just knew to do the same? What is it forgot? We wouldn't be here!! Piotr claims epigenetic cannot account for lasting effects past a few generations but that does not make much sense in particular scenarios (nor in the literature in fact pro-evo lit) but also how does the selfish gene explain instinct? How does a once non-flying bird gain the instincts to fly, glide, land...etc?Dr JDD
May 31, 2014
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phoodoo noted,
How often do we see random accidental mutations for missing bones and airsacks for animals that don’t want them? Because in order for those that do use them to get them, they also need to sporadically pop-up in ALL species, in any location in their body..because according to you its simply random-and when the lucky one hits the spot, we keep it even longer, until the next lucky one.
Exactly! My dog evolved big, floppy ears---you should have seen them flap when she chased birds! Once I found a feather on one of them, but it turned out it was just stuck there. But, what will happen over millions of years is that her descendants will acquire some of that bird DNA that she likes to chow down on for their ears and tails. Gradually, their front legs will become vestigial and evolution will produce mammalian (versus reptilian) birds. A placental version of this process can be clearly seen in kangaroos. ;-) -QQuerius
May 31, 2014
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Self-correction: “ration” => ratio, etc. Sorry for any such errors — I’m a messy typer.
No, please leave such errors. They are proof of the process of evolving brand new, coherent sentences. ;-) -QQuerius
May 31, 2014
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Piotr, Please. Did you not even understand the question? I asked you if these types of changes are what we can see when we have sporadic dna mutational copying errors. Yes, of course we know these systems developed, they exist! Is someone arguing that these systems don't exist? The thing that we have to figure out is how to build them through disruption, and meandering, and damage. As I said, go ahead and use science as a canvas for your imagination, but you can't fool people here into accepting you have evidence for that. Just because you like to call people idiots, that doesn't mean they really can't see through your rube. How often do we see random accidental mutations for missing bones and airsacks for animals that don't want them? Because in order for those that do use them to get them, they also need to sporadically pop-up in ALL species, in any location in their body..because according to you its simply random-and when the lucky one hits the spot, we keep it even longer, until the next lucky one.phoodoo
May 31, 2014
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Once you can fly and your reproductive success depends on it, it pays to do it better: the development of efficient flight accelerates, and adaptive evolution gives it a clear direction. We can see the effects very well in the fossil record.
LOL. Yes, once upon a time, a genetic miracle occurred, and feathers appeared on a confused reptile.
The ancestors of birds were considered to be runners, flapping their forelimbs to catch insects, thereby evolving the functionality for flapping flight.
Later, while trying to catch an insect with its claws rather than its mouth or tongue, it accidentally found itself airborne. Landing, however, was another matter. Actually, "plummet" is a more descriptive term. Many of these reptiles plunged into soft, deep mudflats where, under the anaerobic conditions, they quickly became fossilized. Complete fantasy. -QQuerius
May 31, 2014
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Self-correction: "ration" => ratio, etc. Sorry for any such errors -- I'm a messy typer.Piotr
May 31, 2014
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willh: There is ampole evidence of postcranial skeletal pneumaticity in dinosaurs, especially Saurischia (the group containing birds, but also non-avian theropods and sauropodomorphs). For example, sauropods (such as diplodocids and titanosaurs), which certainly couldn't fly, had pneumatic vertebra and a system of air sacks and diverticulae. Far from causing any stress to them, the system offered thermoregulatory and respiratory advantages, and the added bonus of reducing body density. The extreme elongation of necks and tails in neosauropods would not have been possible without it. As for non-avian theropods, see this link. So, to return to phoodoo's question, pneumatic bones and airsacks are phylogenetically older than birds and did not develop as an adaptation for flight. However, their presence in small feathered theropods was one of the features that enabled them to fly.
low metabolic rated reptilian...
Who said dinosaurs (and more especially theropods) had a low metabolism? The size of cells in theropods, estimated from the size of their preserved osteocytes, was small -- a feature that correlates with high metabolic levels in some groups of vertebrates (for reasons such as a higher surface-to-volume ration in blood cells). I can't, and therefore I won't, give you a full account of anatomical and physiological developments in long-extinct animals. But phoodoo's question (also the remaining ones, about fused bones, finger and tail reductions, etc.), can be answered on the basis of the fossil record alone. Many (perhaps most) of the "typically avian" features were already present in their ancestors before the development of flight.Piotr
May 31, 2014
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Sure we have fossils but without supporting genetic evidence the fossils don't say anything that you don't already believe.Joe
May 31, 2014
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Poitr wrote: There’s no need to speculate; we’ve got the fossils... No fossilized one way flowing lung system to date, that I've heard of? If even one of these could have been preserved it could hardly provide insight into the how of its development unless perhaps you had many, spanning the changes in detail, preferably of a single or very closely related species, and following the 'evolutionary transformations' of the lung system in minutiae. Well perhaps not even then. In detail, how does one get the fine grained re-arrangements of the tissues and cells, in a low metabolic rated reptilian, to a high metabolic rated avian? Specifically the unique 'double bellow' like structure Phoodoo's post mentions? At what point does an 'evolving' creature with reptilian like lungs, acquire some kind of 'proto' anterior and posterior air sack, connected to these archaic lungs {not to mention the other changes to the plumbing of which flow direction is but one perhaps}? Something that is selectable without compromising the health of the creature, before any workable arrangement is achieved. This has to segue into it's proposed evolution into actual flight of course. Carrying around preformed airsacks connected to an old style reptilian lung, without the as yet avian modifications to it, suggests a very long term {and in evolution we are talking in very, very long terms time wise} sub par performance. Even if these other changes are separated time wise {and how could they be conveniently so?}, how much stress can the organism withstand? The intense bone, cartilage, and muscle mass changes, that are involved in the keel like chest structure, must also be initiated at some point ... and all that flapping it required? Some seem to insist that a very minimal process of incredibly small changes can achieve this, as opposed to say for example, gene manipulation in the developmental stages of a fruit fly and the non functioning 4 winged like results sometimes produced? There appears to be a large disconnect between evolutionary claims and an actual workable explanation in detail, or any experimental demonstration of this. Biological systems have very stringent engineering requirements inflicted upon them, by universal laws do they not? To suggest unguided restructuring by some natural process, requires that some revelation as to the detailed steps be demonstrated? If not, then it would be speculation only. So what are those workable detailed steps that have caused a natural engineering of the unique avian lung system, or its powerful and purposefully adapted skeletal and muscle structure allowing flight? The fossil record is not providing or demonstrating any process in detail at all. It is just a record of certain shapes and some structure. Saying mutation worked upon by natural selection is like saying people build houses with bricks and wood and some other stuff, with a hammer etc etc.willh
May 31, 2014
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So what do you reckon happened first-the vertebrate bones fused first, or they flew without fused bones, and then got that after a few million generations?
There's no need to speculate; we've got the fossils. Can you take a look at them on your own, or do you need a guide?Piotr
May 31, 2014
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Birds have found other ways to lighten the load in addition to hollowing out their bones. For instance, they keep their reproductive organs (testes, ovaries and oviducts) tiny for most of the year, greatly enlarging them only during the breeding season. The respiratory system of birds is also adapted to the demands of flight. A bird's respiratory system is proportionately larger and much more efficient than ours -- as might be expected, since flight is a more demanding activity than walking or running. An average bird devotes about one-fifth of its body volume to its respiratory system, an average mammal only about one-twentieth. Mammalian respiratory systems consist of lungs that are blind sacs and of tubes that connect them to the nose and mouth. During each breath, only some of the air contained in the lungs is exchanged, since the lungs do not collapse completely with each exhalation, and some "dead air" then remains in them. In contrast, the lungs of birds are less flexible, and relatively small, but they are interconnected with a system of large, thin-walled air sacs in the front (anterior) and back (posterior) portions of the body. These, in turn, are connected with the air spaces in the bones. Evolution has created an ingenious system that passes the air in a one-way, two-stage flow through the bird's lungs. A breath of inhaled air passes first into the posterior air sacs and then, on exhalation, into the lungs. When a second breath is inhaled into the posterior sacs, the air from the first breath moves from shrinking lungs into the anterior air sacs. When the second exhalation occurs, the air from the first breath moves from the anterior air sacs and out of the bird, while the second breath moves into the lungs. The air thus moves in one direction through the lungs. All birds have this one-way flow system; most have a second two-way flow system which may make up as much as 20 percent of the lung volume. In both systems, the air is funneled down fine tubules which interdigitate with capillaries carrying oxygen-poor venous blood. At the beginning of the tubules the oxygen-rich air is in close contact with that oxygen-hungry blood; farther down the tubules the oxygen content of air and blood are in equilibrium. Birds' lungs are anatomically very complex (their structure and function are only barely outlined here), but they create a "crosscurrent circulation" of air and blood that provides a greater capacity for the exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide across the thin intervening membranes than is found in mammalian lungs.
More just lucky mutations Piotr? These are pretty common results of damaged copies of DNA, that just so happen to be useful?phoodoo
May 31, 2014
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Piotr, I am impressed that you take such a non-evidenced based approach to your science. Few would be so willing to admit that.
"One of the requirements of heavier-than-air flying machines, birds included, is a structure that combines strength and light weight. One way this is accomplished in birds is by the fusion and elimination of some bones and the "pneumatization" (hollowing) of the remaining ones. Some of the vertebrae and some bones of the pelvic girdle of birds are fused into a single structure, as are some finger and leg bones -- all of which are separate in most vertebrates. And many tail, finger, and leg bones are missing altogether. Not only are some bones of birds, unlike ours, hollow, but many of the hollows are connected to the respiratory system. To keep the cylindrical walls of a bird's major wing bones from buckling, the bones have internal strut-like reinforcements...."
So what do you reckon happened first-the vertebrate bones fused first, or they flew without fused bones, and then got that after a few million generations? Are fused vertebrates a pretty common random mutation? What about hollow bones, do they happen with regular frequency in animals just sporadically and accidentally ?phoodoo
May 31, 2014
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podcast - Tom Woodward and Stephen Meyer on the Cambrian Explosion" http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2014-05-30T17_33_15-07_00bornagain77
May 31, 2014
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how lizards first took flight
Lizards? Why not snakes or turtles?Piotr
May 31, 2014
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imprinting mean that things can be “written” into DNA and passed on
Imprinting doesn't "write" anything into the DNA sequence, and the effects of DNA methylation or histone modification don't last longer than a few generations. You can neither cause nor fix an adaptive mutation in this way.Piotr
May 31, 2014
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Next to the development of the eye, the fabulous accounts of how lizards first took flight are some of the most strained, forced accounts that I hear from the Darwinians. Yet, those of us who doubt this "power" of evolution are the deniers? What kind of mixed up, crazy world do we live in??OldArmy94
May 30, 2014
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Prokaryotes do not have arms. Therefore flapping arms confers no selective advantage. If flapping arms conferred a selective advantage, even prokaryotes would have wings. Q. E. D.Mung
May 30, 2014
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Piotr @ 8. You confidently say that flapping your arms won't pass on anything to your offspring yet we know that through mechanism Darwinian evolution cannot really account for that epigenetic control and imprinting mean that things can be "written" into DNA and passed on. For example it has been shown fear of particular events (eg a smell associated with pain) means that offspring can fear that smell even though they never experienced the pain association. so you confidently say something here which in principle has actually been disproven. Things that happen to us/experiences can in fact be passed on. Amazing how complex "evolution" is isn't it...Dr JDD
May 30, 2014
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The flapping after insects idea and airbourne seems very unlikely. Did bats come this way too? I think they are guessing but get to say its science because of a degree on the wall. By the way. Studying bones and making conclusions about relationships is alsi just guessing. its not biological scientific investigation what so ever.Robert Byers
May 30, 2014
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Piotr says authoritatively:
Ostrom wasn’t right about every detail (and little wonder, considering that he had very scanty data at his disposal), but the core of his hypothesis remains correct: birds are a group nested within Theropoda.
I see. The core of his hypothesis remains correct. My question is this: "How do you really know?"tjguy
May 30, 2014
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The ancestors of birds were considered to be runners, flapping their forelimbs to catch insects, thereby evolving the functionality for flapping flight.
That's the funniest thing I've read all day!William J Murray
May 30, 2014
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