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A Materialist Gets It (Almost)

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A recent exchange with Allan Keith illustrates how materialists have allowed their intellect to become literally enslaved to their metaphysical commitments.  Allan proves one can understand the logic fully and even accept the logic.  And then turn right around and deny the conclusions compelled by the logic.  Let’s see how:

We will pick up the exchange where Allan has admitted that we have countless trillions of examples of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity caused by humans.

___________________________________________________________

Barry:

You admit that we have countless trillions of examples of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity from humans. So far so good.

What is it about humans that enables them to cause those things Allan? Intelligence.

So now we have countless trillions of examples of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity from humans on account of their intelligence.

We have observed exactly ZERO instances of any other cause accounting for functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.

Put it together Allan. Human intelligence is the only certainly known source of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.

Therefore, when we see functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity whose origins we do not know, we have a choice:

1 Attribute it to the only cause known with certainty to produce it, i.e. intelligence.
2 Attribute it to causes that have never been observed producing it.

Answer 1 is obviously best.

Allan responds:

Option 1 does not follow from your logic. The logical option 1 would be:  Attribute it to the only cause known with certainty to produce it, i.e. Human intelligence.

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I understand Allan’s metaphysical commitments prevent him from following the logic beyond a certain point, but his response is still very sad.  I wonder if he ever gets tired of wearing those blinkers.

What is wrong with Allan’s reply?  It steadfastly ignores the glaringly obvious fact that intelligence (not the more narrow “human intelligence”) is the causal factor.

In other words, the thing about humans that makes them a special case is not that they are a member of the Animalia kingdom, or the Chordata phylum, or the Mammalia class, or the Primate order, or the Homo genus or the Homo sapiens species.  The thing that distinguishes humans is reflected in the name of the species.  (“Homo sapiens” means literally “wise man.”) The distinguishing characteristic of the species is intelligence.

It is that characteristic and nothing else that accounts for the ability of Homo sapiens to cause functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.*

Now it is certainly true that the species Homo sapiens is the only species of which we have observational evidence that it causes functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.  Allan seems to believe that fact compels the conclusion that we can infer only “human design” from an observed instance of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.

Nonsense.  Not even Allan’s fellow materialists agree with him:

BEN STEIN: What do you think is the possibility that Intelligent Design might turn out to be the answer to some issues in genetics or in Darwinian evolution.

DAWKINS: Well, it could come about in the following way. It could be that at some earlier time, somewhere in the universe, a civilization evolved, probably by some kind of Darwinian means, probably to a very high level of technology, and designed a form of life that they seeded onto perhaps this planet. Um, now that is a possibility, and an intriguing possibility. And I suppose it’s possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the details of biochemistry, molecular biology, you might find a signature of some sort of designer. . . . And that Designer could well be a higher intelligence from elsewhere in the universe.  But that higher intelligence would itself have had to have come about by some explicable, or ultimately explicable process. It couldn’t have just jumped into existence spontaneously. That’s the point

Dawkins understands, as Allan apparently does not, that it is the intelligence, not its instantiation in any particular species, that is important when it comes to inferring design.

UPDATE:

To his credit, Allan now admits the obvious:

Design inference is based almost solely on a comparison to human design. This can certainly be used to infer design in biology . . .

But he cannot resist adding an unwarranted disclaimer:

. . . but with only one known source of intelligence as a frame of reference, the inference is weak. That is statistical reality speaking, not me. But even a weak inference can strengthen support for ID if there were other avenues of examination that support ID.

Why does Allan consider the inference weak?  Because his metaphysical commitments, not logic, compel that conclusion.  Again, here is the logic:

  1. Object X exhibits functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.
  2. The ONLY KNOWN CAUSE of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity is design by an intelligent agent.
  3. Inferring to best explanation, the only known cause of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity (i.e., intelligent design) is the cause of the functional complexity, semiosis or  irreducible complexity in Object X.

Allan insists the inference is “weak,” even though he admits the inference as to cause is to the only known cause of the phenomenon.  Why?  Statistics.  Nonsense.  It is not a statistical analysis.  It is a logical analysis.

 

 

 

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*Let’s not get bogged down with beavers and bees.  The international space station is obviously different in kind and not merely degree from a beaver dam.  Anyone who denies this disqualifies themselves from being considered serious.

 

Comments
@EA, yes it is circular, but it is also circular when ID proponents use human artifacts to make their argument. That's my point. At any rate, ID doesn't have a positive case to make. Darwinism doesn't work mathematically, true. But, to then say intelligence did it adds no content to the discussion, since we have no positive theory of intelligence. All we know is that something other than chance and necessity is at work.EricMH
March 26, 2018
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AK, it was long since pointed out that as we are contingent designers, we do not exhaust the set of possible designers. What we demonstrate instead is that designers are possible. Indeed in our cells we bear signs of design not only antecedent to our species but to cell based life. The objection is an irrelevant one. KFkairosfocus
March 26, 2018
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EricMH @308: Both a logical fallacy and a non-sequitur. The question on the table is how biological systems (like humans) came about. So you cannot refer to humans coming about through natural processes as an answer. That is circular. On the second point, many materialists would argue that humans have intelligence. They think it came about through some unknown, unidentified, rare, coincidental process of particles bumping into each other -- but they think the intelligence is real. If that is the case, then human-created artifacts are also the result of intelligence. So you still haven't provided a counter example. And in either case we can't simply define the issue away by saying, in effect: humans are the result of a natural process without intelligence, so whatever humans produce is also the result of a natural process without intelligence. It simply doesn't follow.Eric Anderson
March 26, 2018
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@tribune7 275 "Can something with CSI occur by law or chance? What?" Human created artifacts, if humans are artificial intelligences.EricMH
March 26, 2018
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JVL, BTW, one more quick item: I don't have time to go through all the stuff by Venema, but I did take a quick look at the series of web articles you linked to. It took me less than 5 minutes to find that a key part of Venema's argument seems to be that the information in DNA isn't really information, but is just a convenience label we are applying. Is that consistent with your understanding of what he is saying? At that point I stopped reading. You can go to your local library and pick up any college textbook on genetics and find numerous references to information. There are numerous companies that have been founded to capture, read, and understand the information contained in DNA. There are many universities that have now established programs specifically focused on biological information. The field of bioinformatics is exploding. You are on a very slippery intellectual slope if you allow Venema to be your guide in this area. He is absolutely mistaken -- spectacularly so -- and your honest search for the truth is in serious jeopardy if you buy into his grasping at straws and rejection of the clear role of information in biology, all so that he can deny the role of design in biology or whatever other agenda he is pushing. Do yourself a favor and look elsewhere for your information.Eric Anderson
March 26, 2018
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JVL
I’m in my mid-50s. I no longer have the time to pursue a lengthy field of study , personally trying to reconstruct all the decades of work leading up to the results in question. You are suggesting I doubt all of that because why exactly? Given that the work has been peer-reviewed and put out for public scrutiny.
Salvador Cordova(used to post here) has recently shown through an extensive search that the Nylonese enzyme existed prior to Nylon so Venema"s example is wrong. If your were to wake up every morning and make random changes to the direct dial numbers stored in your cell phone do you think you would find new friends? DNA and Proteins are sequential information just like your cell phone. Random changes move it to non function over time. No experiment has successfully challenged this paradox.bill cole
March 26, 2018
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JVL: "You are making quite a damning statement against the researchers in question. Are you willing to say so with your real name and reputation on the line?" I do use my real name. What's the problem? "I’m in my mid-50s. I no longer have the time to pursue a lengthy field of study , personally trying to reconstruct all the decades of work leading up to the results in question. You are suggesting I doubt all of that because why exactly? Given that the work has been peer-reviewed and put out for public scrutiny." Just two points: I don't want you to doubt, you can believe as you like. But becoming a convinced discussant in favor of a theory that you don't understand at the biological level makes you become just a sounding board for academic authority. Why do you want to personally discuss something that you don't really understand? The second point is: peer review. I am not saying that the data presented by Yarus are wrong (although doubts about his statistical methods have been proposed). But that's not the point. The point is that his conclusions are practically irrelevant and do not provide any credible scenario for his hypotheses. So his work can be considered as side work which could have some relevance if and when supported by a real theory, but nothing more. The simple fact is that the genetic code is symbolic in the only place that counts: observed reality.gpuccio
March 26, 2018
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JVL @295:
Look, folks . . . there is some new and exciting research being done which seems to suggest that there might be a chemical basis for the development of the ‘genetic code’. That’s astonishing and fascinating. We should be intrigued and glad we live in such times. I find it confusing that when I present such work to this forum it seems to be met with derision. I don’t know about you but I really want to know what is true. I don’t care if it demolishes my own personal beliefs. I just want to know the truth. And that means supporting work that is chasing down the base, chemical behaviours of our genomes. Surely.
JVL, this an old concept, thoroughly debunked in the 1970's. The reason you are getting derision is that it is a complete non-starter and it has been known as a non-starter for decades. I'm glad you want to know the truth. In that case, you need to start looking at the issues and not just reading pro-evolution articles from places like Biologos. It has been known for many years, on the basis of biochemistry, that there is not a chemical basis for either the genetic code or the ordering of nucleotides in DNA. In addition, it is well known, on the basis of information theory, that an information-rich system requires that there not be a chemical basis. It cannot be "pure chemistry." Further, the storage medium itself must be contingent. There is an inverse relationship between any process that drives toward a particular outcome (such as would be the case with a chemically-driven process) and the ability of a medium to store information. Serious researchers in the field have known this for decades. I don't know how much background you have in information theory, semiotics, codes and computational systems, but even if you are just starting out, you would be much better served to sit down and deeply think through the issues from the ground up on your own time, rather than spending time with some of the stuff you've apparently been spending time with. Better yet would be to spend time becoming familiar with some of the key concepts relating to symbolic representation, codes, information storage systems, and the like.Eric Anderson
March 26, 2018
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mike1962 ’ll be happy to. Please do me a favor and repost the links you think are relevant to that. Are you going to address the rest of what I wrote? You merely have to scroll up through the conversation to find the links. It's late where I live so I will converse more in my morning.JVL
March 26, 2018
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JVL:
Look, folks . . . there is some new and exciting research being done which seems to suggest that there might be a chemical basis for the development of the ‘genetic code’.
Look, JVL, there are many people that absolutely NEED there to be a materialistic answer for the genetic code. These people will say and do anything to keep their hopes alive. You are wanting us to believe that blind and mindless processes can do the magical- do something that we can't even do. That is the reason for any derision.ET
March 26, 2018
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gpuccio I am well aware of the wrok of Yarus et al. Believe it or not, it does not prove anything. It is rather a desperate attempt at giving some vague support, completely indirect and not bound to any real viable hypothesis, to the idea that perhaps, maybe, if we really believe it with all our faith, there could be a distant hope that someday we can explain how the genetic code evolved without needing design. So, unlike what is claimed, this work has not led on to other research projects and lines of enquiry? There is nothing serious or scientific in this. These people should really try to provide a credible hypothesis: but they can’t, because a credible hypothesis does not exist. You are making quite a damning statement against the researchers in question. Are you willing to say so with your real name and reputation on the line? Look you have admitted that you have not a real backgorund in biology. No problem with that, but just one advice: as you cannot really understand the arguments, keep in mind that believing what the majority says is not always the best policy. At least, keep an open mind, and try to understand better what is at stake at the biological level: it is not so difficult, after all. I'm in my mid-50s. I no longer have the time to pursue a lengthy field of study , personally trying to reconstruct all the decades of work leading up to the results in question. You are suggesting I doubt all of that because why exactly? Given that the work has been peer-reviewed and put out for public scrutiny.JVL
March 26, 2018
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JVL: The research suggests this is not completely the case!! Did you read the posts I linked to? I'll be happy to. Please do me a favor and repost the links you think are relevant to that. Are you going to address the rest of what I wrote?mike1962
March 26, 2018
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JVL at #234: I am well aware of the wrok of Yarus et al. Believe it or not, it does not prove anything. It is rather a desperate attempt at giving some vague support, completely indirect and not bound to any real viable hypothesis, to the idea that perhaps, maybe, if we really believe it with all our faith, there could be a distant hope that someday we can explain how the genetic code evolved without needing design. There is nothing serious or scientific in this. These people should really try to provide a credible hypothesis: but they can't, because a credible hypothesis does not exist. Look you have admitted that you have not a real backgorund in biology. No problem with that, but just one advice: as you cannot really understand the arguments, keep in mind that believing what the majority says is not always the best policy. At least, keep an open mind, and try to understand better what is at stake at the biological level: it is not so difficult, after all.gpuccio
March 26, 2018
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mike1982 The genetic code obviously qualifies because the codons bear no chemical similarity or affinity to the amino acids that they are translated into by the ribosomes. The research suggests this is not completely the case!! Did you read the posts I linked to? I am only reporting what I have read.JVL
March 26, 2018
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A code is a symbol that can be translated. This assumes a shared informational context with the creator of a particular symbol and the translator of the symbol. The genetic code obviously qualifies because the codons bear no chemical similarity or affinity to the amino acids that they are translated into by the ribosomes. Not only that, humans are able to monkey with the code to effect desired outcomes. Monsanto does this with gene splicing by inserting sections of gene codons into a genome for a desired effect. The fact that humans can make intelligently designed modifications to a genome by manipulating the codons is stark evidence that it is a full code by any reasonable definition. Humans are literally doing genetic programming. This is really a no-brainer.mike1962
March 26, 2018
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Eric Anderson Maybe you should actually spend some more time understanding what the issues on the table even are before you start making laughable claims. It's not me, read the posts I linked to. If you can find fault with the methods or conclusions then fair enough. But I am not the one claiming anything.JVL
March 26, 2018
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MUng Have you tried arguing at Biologos that the genetic code isn’t really a code? No. You seem to both agree and disagree that the genetic code is a code. Would you kindly clarify your stance? What's most important is understanding what the 'genetic code' does and how it might have arisen. There seems to be a disagreement over definitions. I suggest we focus on what the science tells us. ET No JVL, Larry is quite aware of what a code is. And your position doesn’t have any testable hypotheses, so that would be a problem as far as science is concerned Well, let's just see what the research tells us then. kairosfocus JVL, have you ever paused to consider what it would actually imply to discover that the DNA code and associated execution machinery (without which the code is useless) was actually written into the laws of our cosmos? Yes, that would be fine tuning on steroids. Or extreme determinism. Design is routinely seen to produce codes and coded messages as well as execution machinery. That warrants the inference that what we are seeing is a good sign of design as cause. But, if a 'code' could have arose through blind and unguided processes then the inference changes. Origenes No, sir, you are being untruthful. In reality, researchers have no clue. Then your disagreement is with them and not with me. I am merely a messenger. You can read the posts and see what they say. Yet another debunked article … >>> ‘Of Molecules and (Straw) Men‘, by Stephen Meyer. Keep them coming JVL! Well, we shall just have to wait and see what the research turns up eh? Allan Keith I hate to keep harping on this little distinction, but we could just as easily argue that codes and coded messages, as well as execution machinery, are routinely produced by beings with a cerebral cortex that makes up more than 80% of their brain. Therefore, we can infer that the best explanation for all coded messages found in nature are beings who’s cerebral cortex makes up over 80% of their brain. I think that we would all agree that this is a very weak inference, but it is just as strong a the design inference used by ID. Sometime I get the feeling it's not about the science. ET So what? Mother nature has never been observed producing any code. It's looking more and more like that has happened. Look, folks . . . there is some new and exciting research being done which seems to suggest that there might be a chemical basis for the development of the 'genetic code'. That's astonishing and fascinating. We should be intrigued and glad we live in such times. I find it confusing that when I present such work to this forum it seems to be met with derision. I don't know about you but I really want to know what is true. I don't care if it demolishes my own personal beliefs. I just want to know the truth. And that means supporting work that is chasing down the base, chemical behaviours of our genomes. Surely. We care about the science. We should all keep an open mind and wait and see what the research says.JVL
March 26, 2018
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JVL @255: "Pure chemistry." Wow. LOL! Maybe you should actually spend some more time understanding what the issues on the table even are before you start making laughable claims. ---- UB: I'm afraid you are not going to get very far with the discussion, until there is a basic understanding of the issues on the table. Maybe it isn't worth any more effort until JVL can articulate (i) what the fundamental issues are, and (ii) why current materialistic scenarios have failed to date. He doesn't have to buy into ID. Might even still hold out hope for some future discovery. But if he can't even articulate the basic issues, you're going to be talking to a wall.Eric Anderson
March 26, 2018
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Technology Prize for Origin of Information- submissions have been made but the prize remains uncollected.ET
March 26, 2018
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Allan Keith:
Human design is routinely seen to produce codes and coded messages as well as execution machinery.
So what? Mother nature has never been observed producing any code.ET
March 26, 2018
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Kairosfocus,
Design is routinely seen to produce codes and coded messages as well as execution machinery.
Human design is routinely seen to produce codes and coded messages as well as execution machinery. I hate to keep harping on this little distinction, but we could just as easily argue that codes and coded messages, as well as execution machinery, are routinely produced by beings with a cerebral cortex that makes up more than 80% of their brain. Therefore, we can infer that the best explanation for all coded messages found in nature are beings who's cerebral cortex makes up over 80% of their brain. I think that we would all agree that this is a very weak inference, but it is just as strong a the design inference used by ID.Allan Keith
March 26, 2018
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Origenes- James Tour is clearly in denial and has given up before the race is over. Geez :roll:ET
March 26, 2018
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JVL:
https://biologos.org/blogs/dennis-venema-letters-to-the-duchess/biological-information-and-intelligent-design-meyer-yarus-and-the-direct-templating-hypothesis
Yet another debunked article ... >>> 'Of Molecules and (Straw) Men', by Stephen Meyer. Keep them coming JVL!Origenes
March 26, 2018
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JVL @
JVL: It appears they are heading that way. ... You ask over and over for plausible paths or routes that led to the development of living structures. Researchers are finding them.
No, sir, you are being untruthful. In reality, researchers have no clue. See James Tour #90.
... neither I nor any of my colleagues can fathom a prebiotic molecular route to construction of a complex system. We cannot even figure out the prebiotic routes to the basic building blocks of life: carbohydrates, nucleic acids, lipids and proteins. Chemists are collectively bewildered. Hence I say that no chemist understands prebiotic synthesis of the requisite building blocks, let alone assembly into a complex system.
Origenes
March 26, 2018
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JVL, have you ever paused to consider what it would actually imply to discover that the DNA code and associated execution machinery (without which the code is useless) was actually written into the laws of our cosmos? Yes, that would be fine tuning on steroids. However, such is rather unlikely as there are about two dozen variants on the code, which implies high contingency. Thus, not by lawlike necessity. That leaves blind chance vs design as the key options. The former fails the needle in haystack search challenge and vera causa tests. Design is routinely seen to produce codes and coded messages as well as execution machinery. That warrants the inference that what we are seeing is a good sign of design as cause. KFkairosfocus
March 26, 2018
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EMH, the design inference is scientific. Where our membership of a certain species is less germane than our intelligence to our being designers. Where there is no good reason to imagine that we exhaust rather than exemplify possible intelligences. BTW without that intelligence, no science. And scientific work involves acts of design. KFkairosfocus
March 26, 2018
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No JVL, Larry is quite aware of what a code is. And your position doesn't have any testable hypotheses, so that would be a problem as far as science is concernedET
March 26, 2018
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JVL:
There the argument is made that the genetic code seems to have at least a partial chemical basis in which case it’s not arbitrary.
Have you tried arguing at Biologos that the genetic code isn't really a code? JVL:
More likely he was unaware of the strict definition of code.
You seem to both agree and disagree that the genetic code is a code. Would you kindly clarify your stance?Mung
March 26, 2018
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"I don’t know how far they’ve gotten." Not very far beyond the original claims of Darwin ;) What we really know today though is what Darwin proposed as a mechanism is not what actually happens on average. That's about it really.Eugene S
March 26, 2018
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"What if it isn’t really a code?" It is code in the strict sense. In the same sense as your browser software you are using is code. It is code now. That is why Venema is simply wrong (and Crick was right btw). It is a different matter, how it came to be. But even there his characterization is wrong for the reasons I mentioned. "That’s the way science works though. Not via books written for general readers." Yes, that is exactly my point! They have not got anything worth flagging up in this discussion now as ground breaking, beyond stuff for general readers. "But it’s exciting to see some promising work being done." I totally agree. It's exciting to see how intelligent design agenda wins the audience. Hardly anyone serious is talking about junk DNA any more, right? ;)Eugene S
March 26, 2018
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