Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A reply to Professor Moran

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Professor Moran has graciously replied to my recent post, “Will this do, Professor Moran?” (18 December 2011) in which I attempted to flesh out the argument that irreducible complexity requires an Intelligent Designer. I would like to thank him for taking the trouble to write a detailed rebuttal of my argument.

Since Professor Moran is a respected biochemist, I won’t be contesting his claim that the citric acid cycle evolved in a Darwinian fashion. What I’ll attempt to show is that it fails as a counter-example to my argument.

“Unlikely” is not the same thing as “impossible”

Before I address Professor Moran’s scientific arguments, I’d like to draw his attention to one brief but important passage in my post:

Note: The argument here is not absolutely ironclad; it is a probabilistic one…

I also wrote that “intelligent design is the best explanation for the generation of irreducibly complex systems.” However, I didn’t claim that it was the only possible explanation.

So I was astonished when I read the following passage in Professor Moran’s post:

It’s quite easy to think of examples that correspond to the steps that Torley says are impossible.

“Impossible” is not a word I used in my argument. (I did use the term “cannot,” but only in relation to states of affairs that were impossible by definition – e.g. a system with a large number of parts cannot have only a very small number of parts.) The phrase I used, over and over again in my argument, was “very unlikely.” Professor Moran is putting words into my mouth.

I’d also like to mention that I accept common descent. What I do not accept is the adequacy of any unguided mechanism (e.g. NDE) in accounting for the origin and development of life. I’m quite sure that Darwinian mechanisms played a role; I just don’t think they’re the stars of the show.

Which version of irreducible complexity am I talking about?

Towards the end of his post, Professor Moran expresses understandable frustration at the fact that Intelligent Design proponents don’t have a single, common definition of “irreducible complexity.”

Now Professor Moran is a biochemist, so I’ll answer him with a question: what’s an acid? He knows perfectly well that there’s more than one definition of that chemical term, just as there’s more than one definition of the biological term “species.” Multiple definitions for a scientific term are fine, so long as everyone is clear about which definition is being used. At the outset of my article on irreducible complexity, I used a definition which I quoted from a 2004 paper by Professor William Dembski.

Professor Michael Behe now uses a different definition from the one he originally formulated in Darwin’s Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution (The Free Press: New York) in 1996, where he wrote:

By irreducibly complex I mean a single system which is composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, and where the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning. (Behe 1996, 39)

This is pretty close to Dembski’s definition:

A functional system is irreducibly complex if it contains a multipart subsystem (i.e., a set of two or more interrelated parts) that cannot be simplified without destroying the system’s basic function.

In a 2000 paper entitled, In Defense of the Irreducibility of the Blood Clotting Cascade:
Response to Russell Doolittle, Ken Miller and Keith Robison
, Behe proposed replacing his old definition of irreducible complexity with an evolutionary definition:

An irreducibly complex evolutionary pathway is one that contains one or more unselected steps (that is, one or more necessary-but-unselected mutations). The degree of irreducible complexity is the number of unselected steps in the pathway.

While Professor Behe’s new definition is more mathematically rigorous than his old one, it is less intuitive. From a layperson’s perspective, it’s nice having a definition which you can picture easily. Behe’s original definition came with a handy visual illustration: the mousetrap. This is something which you can see won’t work if one of its parts goes missing – that is, unless someone cleverly tinkers with the remaining parts. (Yes, one can imagine a freak occurrence which might render the remaining parts functional, but once again, that would be “very unlikely.”) Another reason why I chose not to use Behe’s new definition is that it’s an historical definition. Unfortunately, many biochemical systems don’t wear their history on their sleeves, so to speak – but they do display their functionality in a way that everyone can see.

Professor Moran’s “foot in the door”

Now let’s go back to Behe’s 1996 definition. Notice that he spoke of “several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function” (italics mine). Professor Dembski didn’t use these exact words in his 2004 definition; he used the somewhat more ambiguous term “inter-related.” This definitional ambiguity was Professor Moran’s “foot in the door.”

In his post, Professor Moran argued that the citric acid cycle would satisfy this definition of irreducible complexity: it has multiple parts (enzymes); these parts are inter-related, insofar as they constitute a chemical cycle; and finally, if you remove any of the parts, you break the cycle, so the system’s basic function is detroyed. And yet the citric acid cycle clearly evolved from two other pathways that originally had different functions. Game, set and match?

Not quite. If you look at my post and Professor Dembski’s article, Irreducible Complexity Revisited (version 2.0; revised 2/23/2004), you’ll see that we both used the term “configuration” to describe the arrangement of the parts. Take these two rhetorical questions which Dembski poses, when describing the “daunting probabilistic hurdles” that a Darwinian mechanism for assembling an irreducibly complex system must face:

(5) Interface Compatibility. Are the parts that are being recruited for inclusion in an evolving system mutually compatible in the sense of meshing or interfacing tightly so that, once suitably positioned, the parts work together to form a functioning system? …

(7) Configuration. Even with all the right parts slated to be assembled in the right order, will they be arranged in the right way to form a functioning system? (2004, pp. 30-31)

What Professor Dembski had in mind was not a set of separate components, each of which perform a task in some fixed temporal sequence, but rather, a structure composed of spatially contiguous, inter-locking components – such as the parts of a bacterial flagellum. This becomes apparent when he describes the difficulties attending hurdle number (5) – interface compatibility – when building a bacterial flagellum by a gradual Darwinian process:

For the Darwinian mechanism to evolve a system, it must redeploy parts previously targeted for other systems. But that’s not all. It also needs to ensure that those redeployed parts mesh or interface properly. (2004, p. 35)

Dembski goes on to highlight the difficulty: “The products of Darwinian evolution are, after all, … systems formed by sticking together items previously assigned to different uses” (2004, p. 35, italics mine).

Likewise, in step (iv)(a) of my own argument – the step which Professor Moran attacks – I explicitly used the term “configuration”:

However, it’s very unlikely that a system with function G, which gains one new part, while keeping the existing parts in nearly the same configuration as they were before, should suddenly be able to perform a totally new function F, especially if the number of parts in the system is large. (Emphasis mine – VJT.)

So, is the citric acid cycle irreducibly complex? If not, what is?

It should be clear by now that the citric acid cycle isn’t the sort of thing that Professor Dembski or I would want to describe as “irreducibly complex.” The enzymes in the cycle make up a pathway – i.e. an ordered sequence of reactions. The enzymes in the cycle aren’t all stuck together in some giant superstructure, so there is no multi-part configuration.

For my part, I’m prepared to go further and say that the blood clotting cascade isn’t the sort of thing I’d want to call “irreducibly complex” according to my definition. That doesn’t mean I necessarily think it evolved through a Darwinian process; it just means that according to the definition of “irreducibly complex” which I’m using, the question of whether it originated in that way is impossible for me to answer. Is that a problem? No. Remember: the aim of my argument was simply to develop a case for intelligent design, using a definition of “irreducible complexity” which applies to at least some of the systems which ID proponents would identify as irreducibly complex. I’m happy to focus on the bacterial flagellum, for argument’s sake.

The bacterial flagellum: draw me some pictures, please!

And that was what step (iv)(a) of my argument was about. Co-option is the standard neo-Darwinian explanation for the evolution of the bacterial flagellum, but when you’re dealing with something that has 30 parts, and the nearest functional sub-unit is a piece that has 10 parts, then I’d say you still have a lot of explaining to do. (That’s why the TTSS story doesn’t impress me: it’s a very long way from 10 to 30.)

You could suppose the existence of some “magic pathway,” where the successive addition of each new part somehow generates a new biological function, but then you’ve got to confront the configuration question: when I add a new part, do I substantially retain the old configuration of parts, or do I reshuffle the parts I already have? The idea that 30 succcessive biological functions could appear by the successive addition of parts to an existing configuration without any re-shuffling beggars belief, and the idea that dramatic reshuffling of the configuration could generate this successive appearance of functions as the structure gets bigger and bigger also appears ludicrous: it’s too much of a miracle.

Yes, you could imagine two or more smaller functional structures evolving in parallel and then coming together to make a bigger 30-part system. But the more sub-units you invoke, the harder it is to envisage them all coming together and producing something with a new function of its own. It’s much more likely that the sub-units wouldn’t mesh properly.

So I’d like to ask Professor Moran: how do you envisage the bacterial flagellum evolving? I’m not asking for lots of details here – just a conceptual scenario will be fine. They say a picture is worth a thousand words. Personally, I’d be happy with two or three simple pictures, because I really can’t picture any good way of building an irreducibly complex structure with 30 parts, without making a lot of “iffy” assumptions.

Darwinists can’t keep up with the science

One way in which a layperson like myself can tell when someone’s losing a scientific argument is when the number of new facts they can’t explain keeps growing faster than their ability to generate hypotheses to explain old facts. Looking at what has been happening in the field of research relating to the bacterial flagellum, this is precisely what seems to be happening. Professor Michael Behe’s 2007 book, The Edge of Evolution, has a whole Appendix devoted to what scientists now know about how the flagellum is built, and the system of controls that regulate its construction. Behe writes:

Complex, functional structures such as the cilium and flagellum are just the beginning. They demand intricate machinery and control programs to build them. Without those support systems. the final structure wouldn’t be possible. The bacterial flagellum contains several dozen protein parts. The cilium, which has so far resisted investigation of its DNA control program, has several hundred. There is every reason to think that the control of its construction will have to be much more intricate than that of the flagellum. (2007, p. 100)

In a diagram on page 99, Behe adds:

Genes for the construction of the bacterial flagellum are activated in a precisely timed fashion. Those needed for the construction of the bottom of the molecular machine are switched on first, followed in order by those needed for more distant parts.

Wait a minute. There’s a timing sequence? That really creates problems for evolutionary scenarios where you have lots of little sub-units coming together to make a flagellum, doesn’t it? How did the timing for the activation of the genes get re-regulated, so that the whole thing would develop in the right sequence, from bottom to top? I’m not saying it’s impossible. All I’m saying is: if I were a Darwinian, I’d be pouring myself a brandy. Your headache isn’t getting better; it’s getting worse.

Back to the citric acid cycle

I declared at the beginning of this post that I wouldn’t be contesting Professor Moran’s claim that the citric acid cycle evolved in a Darwinian fashion. But that doesn’t mean that I think the components of the system evolved in a stepwise fashion. I’m talking about enzymes here. I couldn’t help noticing that one of these enzymes is called citrate synthase. Here’s what Wikipedia says about it:

Citrate synthase’s 437 amino acid residues are organized into two main subunits, each consisting of 20 alpha-helices. These alpha helices compose approximately 75% of citrate synthase’s tertiary structure, while the remaining residues mainly compose irregular extensions of the structure, save a single beta-sheet of 13 residues. Between these two subunits, a single cleft exists containing the active site.

437 amino acids? We’re really talking about configuration problems here, if we try to imagine a step-wise scenario for its origin. I’ll let readers have a look at the beast, and judge for themselves:

Those who are familiar with the work of Dr. Douglas Axe will recognize the problem I’m talking about. Only a tiny fraction of amino acid sequences are in any way functional. The odds against proteins such as citrate synthase forming in this way are astronomical.

I’m sure that Professor Moran will insist that there are other more likely explanations for the origins of proteins. What about RNA, for instance? OK, fine. I have just one question. Can you point out an alternative scenario, and show me some calculations (back-of-the-envelope will do) indicating that your scenario is more likely to generate a functional protein than the nightmare scenario of building up an amino acid chain step by step? If you can’t quantify, then you’re not doing science. Well, what are you doing? Theorizing. Mmm. That sounds like religion to me. Don’t you think?

Comments
You say: ‘It’s not a semiotic system?’ I've tried to engage you on this half a dozen times and been ignored. I want to know if you are referring to the origin of life.Petrushka
December 23, 2011
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Petrushka,
It’s true that I am more skeptical of imaginary friends than I am of observable processes.
I observed that you apply your logic precisely when it suits you, and in response you have retreated to the safe corner of rhetoric. Better not to respond at all, in which case I would generously assume that you were busy.ScottAndrews2
December 23, 2011
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It’s true that I am more skeptical of imaginary friends than I am of observable processes.
Oh really? I find that hard to believe. What about the physically observable dynamics within systems? You say: 'It's not a semiotic system?' Then by all means, answer the question: If in one instance we have something that is a symbol, and in another we have something that just acts like a symbol, then surely you can look at the physical evidence and point to the distinction between the two. Instead, you've chosen to simply ignore it. You are living inside a delusion where you willfully apply one standard of evidence for the things you like, and another for the things you don't. The observable artifacts of a beginning to this universe seem to give you no pause, even though we have absolutely no experience with 'universes coming into being' and therefore absolutely no reference beyond what the evidence itself is telling us. Yet. In order for you to simply acknowledge the material artifact of a semiotic system in protein synthesis, you stomp your feet and demand to know a designer's hair color and shoe size. You want to know where he came from, while at the same time, you completely ignore the fact that you don't know where anything else came from either (and that doesn't make you question background radiation). You reserve that particular standard as a tool for the things you dislike, because for you, it's not about the evidence. It's about being able to manipulate your standards of evidence in order to please yourself. You don't have the integrated standards of a materialist who can acknowledge what the material is telling you. There is one thing we can know for sure; you won't be pointing out any distinctions in the physical evidence between protein synthesis and any other semiotic system.Upright BiPed
December 22, 2011
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Meanwhile no one attempts to explain how the proteins used to assemble a sea sponge evolved or can even demonstrate that the supposed pathways even exist to make it possible at all. But in this case you do a full 180 and suddenly the “how” isn’t so important. Your rigorous skepticism is nowhere to be found.
It's true that I am more skeptical of imaginary friends than I am of observable processes.Petrushka
December 22, 2011
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Hi Bilbo! Here: http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2005/11/coopting-coopti.html So have Dembski and Luskin. There goes the metabolic-pathways-don't-qualify defense. Whoops!NickMatzke_UD
December 22, 2011
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Have another look at the table in the Panda's Thumb blogpost, and at the referenced article therein, and your questions will be answered. I'm not going to re-write the answers again and again for people unwilling to do minimal amounts of research.NickMatzke_UD
December 22, 2011
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Hi KRock, I've been working on a couple of long posts. That's why I've been away for a while. You should see another post in the next couple of days. Merry Christmas, by the way.vjtorley
December 22, 2011
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The second response is that it is always up to those who claim the sufficiency of a process to demonstrate the sufficiency.
I'm beginning to suspect that in some perverse way you are amused by the irony of such statements, and that it is deliberate. That's fine. I appreciate that type of humor, and it makes sense of something that would otherwise make none.ScottAndrews2
December 22, 2011
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Petrushka, This has been the linchpin of your logic for hundreds of posts, despite having been refuted from more than one angle. You have seized upon the accurate observation that no one has figured out how to functionally fold proteins and upon that you base the claim that it is impossible. Meanwhile no one attempts to explain how the proteins used to assemble a sea sponge evolved or can even demonstrate that the supposed pathways even exist to make it possible at all. But in this case you do a full 180 and suddenly the "how" isn't so important. Your rigorous skepticism is nowhere to be found. Upon this faulty foundation you routinely reassert that 'evolution is the only process known to be capable of such things,' which is inexplicable as no such thing is known at all. It's as if you think that if you repeat it enough, others will grow weary of pointing out that it isn't remotely true, and then it will be.ScottAndrews2
December 22, 2011
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Bilbo I: "Perhaps they should take holidays more often". I actually enjoy most of what is posted at UD, it’s a breath of fresh air unlike the Darwin’istic ideology that plagues our society. You can't even use a "public restroom" these days with out being informed of how Neo- Darwinism has somehow influenced your decision to do so. No... I'm not the same person as the Rock! KRock is a nickname the guys I work with gave me and judging by some of the other nicknames given to people I work with, I did pretty well, I guess... Lol..KRock
December 22, 2011
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You do understand that I am out on a limb on this. Several people have argued that technology will prove me wrong. I'm aware of this possibility. I have two responses. The first is that there are things which appear to be unpredictable for good reasons that will not succumb to technological advance. Because calculations are dependent on unmeasurably small differences in initial conditions. I think organic chemistry and the attributes of complex molecules fall in this category. There is also the fact that protein folding is simply a very difficult calculation. It gets geometrically more difficult with increments in complexity. The second response is that it is always up to those who claim the sufficiency of a process to demonstrate the sufficiency. ID lacks both evidence for a designer and the theory of design that might be employed by a designer. Evolution obviously has gaps, but studying them is the work of evolutionary biologists. That's what they do: extend the knowledge of how things work.Petrushka
December 22, 2011
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KRock: "Did everyone from UD take early Holidays? Just curious, there hasn’t been to many articles posted…" Perhaps they should take holidays more often. BTW, KRock, are you also known as Rock?Bilbo I
December 22, 2011
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Hi Nick, Good to see ya'. You stated: "...Behe has claimed certain metabolic pathways as IC on other occasions." Where exactly has Behe made such a claim?Bilbo I
December 22, 2011
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why should it even enter your mind to think that a known impotent process is to be preferred to the known effective one.
That's actually the question I'm asking. Evolution is used by the pharmaceutical industry to develop biologically active molecules because it's the fastest and cheapest known method. No one has been able to design useful coding strings from scratch, so the alternative to evolution is nonexistent. Yes, it's directed evolution, but all industrial methods are refined versions of natural processes. It's important to note that protein design starts with variations of known sequences. Even in that basic regard it is just incremental change. Directed evolution may be the fastest way to achieve a specific target, but populations don't have specific targets. They have varying individuals, some of which leave more offspring than others.Petrushka
December 22, 2011
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P: Kindly look around you, and go talk to a designer. When you look around, start with this thread. Were the long strings here created by trial and error? Obviously not. Similarly, the strings in a computer objective code are not the result of trial and error. Now, go look at how proteins are made in the living cell, observing the algorithmic, stepwise, phase by phase process. Ask yourself on the empirically warranted source of algorithms and the machines that physically implement them. Then ask yourself again -- this has been repeatedly pointed out, just you seem to want to drum out your talking points over and over, utterly unresponsive to cogent reply -- why should it even enter your mind to think that a known impotent process is to be preferred to the known effective one. Intelligent design routinely produces systems like we are seeing. The combinatorial explosion overwhelms any blind process as a credible source. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
December 22, 2011
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You claim the argument is stale because you have no counterargument, and you wish it would go away. The evolution side of the argument has invested the last 150 years and the work of thousands of researchers digging int other details of how evolution works, how fast it occurs, and whether there are intermediate sequences linking new functions to old sequences.
Is any complex physical process more consistent than the folding of proteins?
What do you mean by consistent? The same sequence may produce the same fold reliably, but that tells you next to nothing about what would happen if you made one change to the sequence. There are ways of calculating folds, but they run into the problem of big numbers. Chemistry is simply many orders of magnitude faster. Which is why the designer uses evolution.Petrushka
December 22, 2011
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Petrushka, That argument has gotten quite stale. Every day we use technology designed using technology designed using technology that wasn't even imaginable 100 years ago. If you're prepared to seriously argue that A) something is impossible, and B) the only counterargument is to show how exactly how to do it, then please alert the rest of the world, as they are busy trying to figure out how to do things that they don't know how to do at present, and the poor lost souls have no idea that by definition, that makes it impossible. Is any complex physical process more consistent than the folding of proteins? To argue that something consistent is also unpredictable is irrational. And, as usual, you assert a rule of logic that only applies when you want it to. I don't see you stating that the evolution of complex systems is impossible because no one has demonstrated exactly how it might happen. How are we to take this rule that you've invented seriously when you implicitly contradict it?ScottAndrews2
December 22, 2011
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An intelligent designer imagines screws that are inserted with screwdrivers. He does not arrange random configurations of metal and suddenly say, “Look! This four-pronged configuration is useful for both impaling food and twirling noodles. Fine. Prove it. Demonstrate that what you claim is possible with coding sequences. But even the gurus of the ID movement say there is no shortcut. Yes, I do put the burden of demonstrating that design is possible on those that claim it is. You are making a claim that has no basis in theory or in practice. You claim the existence of an unobserved entity that just happens to have the magic abilities you want and need it to have. When Darwin wrote Origin, he spent the first third of the book demonstrating the power of variation and selection. He did not fantasize about this. He demonstrated it.Petrushka
December 22, 2011
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So how does the designer figure this out?
Intelligent designers have more methods at their disposal than attempting random combinations of elements and hoping for function. That's an especially useless plan if you're looking for a specific function. An intelligent designer imagines screws that are inserted with screwdrivers. He does not arrange random configurations of metal and suddenly say, "Look! This four-pronged configuration is useful for both impaling food and twirling noodles. I wasn't looking for that, but having stumbled upon it, how convenient. I can't wait until another random configuration of elements and processes produces noodles." And then, millions of attempts later, after attempting all sorts of random additional ingredients such as mustard, sand, and horse excrement and finding them less than desirable, the designer stumbles upon a paste made from boiled tomatoes which incrementally improves on the unadorned noodles. At last! Can you see how useless such an approach would be for designing something as simple as screws and screwdrivers, which have no purpose whatsoever except as part of a separately envisioned design? You assert, against all evidence and common sense, that designers must act by random variation and selection, and then place the burden on others to explain how that might work. Intelligence is not so limited. I think this has been said over and over - that's what makes it "intelligent."ScottAndrews2
December 22, 2011
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Why is it an argument for irreducible complexity? It's an argument that evolution can navigate a connected functional space simply by trying all the one step variations from a given functional point. If you can demonstrate a shortcut that does not involve cut and try, feel free. Show me that design is possible without cut and try. Show me a theory of design. dFSCI is proposed as a metric, which in ordinary usage means it has incremental values along a continuum. But gpuccio's measurement cannot be made on non-functional sequences. So the metric produces only true or false, not a point on a continuum.Petrushka
December 22, 2011
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One point mutation and your 437 AAs are all rubbish. 436 correct elements and you have no way of knowing that you are close.
Aren't you arguing for the wrong side? That sounds almost like an argument for irreducible complexity.
From what I’ve seen, the fabled “dFSCI” is not a metric that can tell you how close you are to functionality.
Who has ever proposed using it as a metric for that?ScottAndrews2
December 22, 2011
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The point of my raising the number 437 is that it’s big. Douglas Axe claims to have shown that the assembly of even a functional 200-aa protein is such an astronomically improbable event that one could not expect it to occur anywhere in the observable cosmos
That claim would be more convincing if you had some theory of what makes a sequence functional. Or a theory of why a particular length is necessary, or a theory predicting the effects of code changes. From what I've seen, the fabled "dFSCI" is not a metric that can tell you how close you are to functionality. It's a step function. One point mutation and your 437 AAs are all rubbish. 436 correct elements and you have no way of knowing that you are close. So how does the designer figure this out? Don't you at least have to demonstrate proof of concept?Petrushka
December 22, 2011
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Did everyone from UD take early Holidays? Just curious, there hasn't been to many articles posted...KRock
December 22, 2011
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Hi Bilbo I, Thank you for your post. I no longer possess a copy of Darwin's Black Box, although I had one some years ago. Not having one on hand, I wasn't sure precisely how Professor Behe distinguished the blood-clotting cascade from metabolic pathways, so I thought it safer to put the B-C cascade to one side. It was not my intention to abandon the cascade as not being irreducibly complex; I simply chose to focus on a subset of irreducibly complex systems. Felipe, I think your distinction between a process and a system is an excellent one. Thanks.vjtorley
December 22, 2011
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Hi lastyearon, Thank you for your post. In a nutshell; if the improbability of an irreducibly complex structure arising can be quantified, and shown to fall below a certain threshold, such that the event in question would not be expected to happen even once in the history of the observable universe, then it is reasonable to infer that an intelligent cause produced such a highly specified system. Of course, my post was about irreducibly complex systems in general. To infer an intelligent designer, you need to look at a particular system and calculate the probabilities, so ascertain whether it falls below Professor Dembski's universal probability bound.vjtorley
December 22, 2011
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Paulmc and Nick, The point of my raising the number 437 is that it's big. Douglas Axe claims to have shown that the assembly of even a functional 200-aa protein is such an astronomically improbable event that one could not expect it to occur anywhere in the observable cosmos, at any stage in its long 13.7 billion year history. 437 is a lot bigger than 200. That was my point. If you think Axe's work is badly flawed, please explain why. There may well be related proteins with different functions. Indeed, I'm sure there are. But if the stepping stones that would take us from one protein to another are too far apart, then obviously stepwise evolution won't work. In which case you'll need to come up with another scenario, and demonstrate that it will at least work better than the old one. Look, there's one thing I do know about science: no numbers, no science. Quantification is fundamental. I'm not asking you to show me how we got from simple organic compounds to a cell. Just show me how we got from amino acids to proteins. Or at least, show me some numeric calculations suggesting that protein synthesis not at all improbable, given a billion years (I'm feeling generous today). I'll set the bar very low: anything above 10^-120 will do me fine. If you can't do that for one of the simplest steps in the evolution of life, then Heaven help us all: we haven't even scratched the surface yet, if that's how little scientists know.vjtorley
December 22, 2011
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Hi Nick, Thanks for your posts. A couple of quick points: 1. I'm quite aware that homologs exist for many of the proteins in the flagellum, and that some proteins in the flagellum are homologous to others within the flagellum. That doesn't prove much, except common descent. But I'm not interested in counting homologs. What really interests me is: assuming some sort of duplication process gave rise to these variants, what functions did they originally have when they were added to the precursor of the flagellum? How many intermediate-stage functions were there along the evolutionary pathway leading from a very small system to the modern flagellum, with its function of producing cell movement? (Let's take the smallest modern one - that'll do.) Additionally, roughly how many separate sub-units came together, and how many times, before we arrived at the modern minimal bacterial flagellum? Also, how many instances of co-option occurred along the way? As I said above, I don't think co-option is impossible; I just think that the configurational problems of adding a new component that configures with the rest of the system become increasingly difficult as the number of components gets larger and larger. Maybe I'm wrong about this. I'm not a chemist. 2. Looking at your 2006 article at http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/09/flagellum_evolu.html , I see I should have said that 23 proteins are absolutely indispensable to the flagellum rather than 30. Mea culpa. 3. You wrote: "Of those proteins with nonflagellar homologs, how many of them are (a) functionally isolated from other flagellar proteins, i.e. they would have to be coopted into the flagellum one-at-a-time, versus (b) functionally connected to other flagellar homologs, i.e. they could be coopted as a preexisting complex of several nonflagellar proteins which already interact with each other before becoming part of the flagellum?" Well, I had a look for that one online, and here's what I got back from Google: No results found for Nick Matzke "functionally isolated from other flagellar proteins". No results found for Nick Matzke "functionally connected to other flagellar homologs". OK. If you've got the answers to these questions, would you care to enlighten us? 4. Finally, you might want to address the arguments put forward in Jonathan M's online article, Michael Behe Hasn't Been Refuted on the Flagellum . Jonathan M makes a far better case than I do, and he does it much more eloquently, as he has a scientific research background. Cheers, Nick. Over to you.vjtorley
December 22, 2011
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No miracles required when you have vast eons of time. The equation is: Mother Nature + Father Time + things happening = all we observe A scientist explains it hereJoe
December 22, 2011
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Something that must be kept in mind is that, if proponents of the creative power of the Darwinian mechanism are correct, every aspect of every biological system in every living thing that has ever existed -- from functional proteins, to the flagellum, to the human mind -- must be approachable in a step-by-tiny-step fashion through the accumulation of random errors. This should strike reasonable people as belief in something that can only be described as a miracle.GilDodgen
December 22, 2011
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Yes, that's true. But rule out "practically" or "operationally" i.e. based on empirical evidence. Events of prohibitively small odds do not occur in practice no matter how you allow them to happen, sequentially or all at once. I think 14 billion years is too short a period for anything like we see in biosystems (formal function and semiosis) to pop up by fluke or necessity without intelligent heuristic guidance. That is the Achilles' heel of materialism.Eugene S
December 22, 2011
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