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A reply to Professor Moran

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Professor Moran has graciously replied to my recent post, “Will this do, Professor Moran?” (18 December 2011) in which I attempted to flesh out the argument that irreducible complexity requires an Intelligent Designer. I would like to thank him for taking the trouble to write a detailed rebuttal of my argument.

Since Professor Moran is a respected biochemist, I won’t be contesting his claim that the citric acid cycle evolved in a Darwinian fashion. What I’ll attempt to show is that it fails as a counter-example to my argument.

“Unlikely” is not the same thing as “impossible”

Before I address Professor Moran’s scientific arguments, I’d like to draw his attention to one brief but important passage in my post:

Note: The argument here is not absolutely ironclad; it is a probabilistic one…

I also wrote that “intelligent design is the best explanation for the generation of irreducibly complex systems.” However, I didn’t claim that it was the only possible explanation.

So I was astonished when I read the following passage in Professor Moran’s post:

It’s quite easy to think of examples that correspond to the steps that Torley says are impossible.

“Impossible” is not a word I used in my argument. (I did use the term “cannot,” but only in relation to states of affairs that were impossible by definition – e.g. a system with a large number of parts cannot have only a very small number of parts.) The phrase I used, over and over again in my argument, was “very unlikely.” Professor Moran is putting words into my mouth.

I’d also like to mention that I accept common descent. What I do not accept is the adequacy of any unguided mechanism (e.g. NDE) in accounting for the origin and development of life. I’m quite sure that Darwinian mechanisms played a role; I just don’t think they’re the stars of the show.

Which version of irreducible complexity am I talking about?

Towards the end of his post, Professor Moran expresses understandable frustration at the fact that Intelligent Design proponents don’t have a single, common definition of “irreducible complexity.”

Now Professor Moran is a biochemist, so I’ll answer him with a question: what’s an acid? He knows perfectly well that there’s more than one definition of that chemical term, just as there’s more than one definition of the biological term “species.” Multiple definitions for a scientific term are fine, so long as everyone is clear about which definition is being used. At the outset of my article on irreducible complexity, I used a definition which I quoted from a 2004 paper by Professor William Dembski.

Professor Michael Behe now uses a different definition from the one he originally formulated in Darwin’s Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution (The Free Press: New York) in 1996, where he wrote:

By irreducibly complex I mean a single system which is composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, and where the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning. (Behe 1996, 39)

This is pretty close to Dembski’s definition:

A functional system is irreducibly complex if it contains a multipart subsystem (i.e., a set of two or more interrelated parts) that cannot be simplified without destroying the system’s basic function.

In a 2000 paper entitled, In Defense of the Irreducibility of the Blood Clotting Cascade:
Response to Russell Doolittle, Ken Miller and Keith Robison
, Behe proposed replacing his old definition of irreducible complexity with an evolutionary definition:

An irreducibly complex evolutionary pathway is one that contains one or more unselected steps (that is, one or more necessary-but-unselected mutations). The degree of irreducible complexity is the number of unselected steps in the pathway.

While Professor Behe’s new definition is more mathematically rigorous than his old one, it is less intuitive. From a layperson’s perspective, it’s nice having a definition which you can picture easily. Behe’s original definition came with a handy visual illustration: the mousetrap. This is something which you can see won’t work if one of its parts goes missing – that is, unless someone cleverly tinkers with the remaining parts. (Yes, one can imagine a freak occurrence which might render the remaining parts functional, but once again, that would be “very unlikely.”) Another reason why I chose not to use Behe’s new definition is that it’s an historical definition. Unfortunately, many biochemical systems don’t wear their history on their sleeves, so to speak – but they do display their functionality in a way that everyone can see.

Professor Moran’s “foot in the door”

Now let’s go back to Behe’s 1996 definition. Notice that he spoke of “several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function” (italics mine). Professor Dembski didn’t use these exact words in his 2004 definition; he used the somewhat more ambiguous term “inter-related.” This definitional ambiguity was Professor Moran’s “foot in the door.”

In his post, Professor Moran argued that the citric acid cycle would satisfy this definition of irreducible complexity: it has multiple parts (enzymes); these parts are inter-related, insofar as they constitute a chemical cycle; and finally, if you remove any of the parts, you break the cycle, so the system’s basic function is detroyed. And yet the citric acid cycle clearly evolved from two other pathways that originally had different functions. Game, set and match?

Not quite. If you look at my post and Professor Dembski’s article, Irreducible Complexity Revisited (version 2.0; revised 2/23/2004), you’ll see that we both used the term “configuration” to describe the arrangement of the parts. Take these two rhetorical questions which Dembski poses, when describing the “daunting probabilistic hurdles” that a Darwinian mechanism for assembling an irreducibly complex system must face:

(5) Interface Compatibility. Are the parts that are being recruited for inclusion in an evolving system mutually compatible in the sense of meshing or interfacing tightly so that, once suitably positioned, the parts work together to form a functioning system? …

(7) Configuration. Even with all the right parts slated to be assembled in the right order, will they be arranged in the right way to form a functioning system? (2004, pp. 30-31)

What Professor Dembski had in mind was not a set of separate components, each of which perform a task in some fixed temporal sequence, but rather, a structure composed of spatially contiguous, inter-locking components – such as the parts of a bacterial flagellum. This becomes apparent when he describes the difficulties attending hurdle number (5) – interface compatibility – when building a bacterial flagellum by a gradual Darwinian process:

For the Darwinian mechanism to evolve a system, it must redeploy parts previously targeted for other systems. But that’s not all. It also needs to ensure that those redeployed parts mesh or interface properly. (2004, p. 35)

Dembski goes on to highlight the difficulty: “The products of Darwinian evolution are, after all, … systems formed by sticking together items previously assigned to different uses” (2004, p. 35, italics mine).

Likewise, in step (iv)(a) of my own argument – the step which Professor Moran attacks – I explicitly used the term “configuration”:

However, it’s very unlikely that a system with function G, which gains one new part, while keeping the existing parts in nearly the same configuration as they were before, should suddenly be able to perform a totally new function F, especially if the number of parts in the system is large. (Emphasis mine – VJT.)

So, is the citric acid cycle irreducibly complex? If not, what is?

It should be clear by now that the citric acid cycle isn’t the sort of thing that Professor Dembski or I would want to describe as “irreducibly complex.” The enzymes in the cycle make up a pathway – i.e. an ordered sequence of reactions. The enzymes in the cycle aren’t all stuck together in some giant superstructure, so there is no multi-part configuration.

For my part, I’m prepared to go further and say that the blood clotting cascade isn’t the sort of thing I’d want to call “irreducibly complex” according to my definition. That doesn’t mean I necessarily think it evolved through a Darwinian process; it just means that according to the definition of “irreducibly complex” which I’m using, the question of whether it originated in that way is impossible for me to answer. Is that a problem? No. Remember: the aim of my argument was simply to develop a case for intelligent design, using a definition of “irreducible complexity” which applies to at least some of the systems which ID proponents would identify as irreducibly complex. I’m happy to focus on the bacterial flagellum, for argument’s sake.

The bacterial flagellum: draw me some pictures, please!

And that was what step (iv)(a) of my argument was about. Co-option is the standard neo-Darwinian explanation for the evolution of the bacterial flagellum, but when you’re dealing with something that has 30 parts, and the nearest functional sub-unit is a piece that has 10 parts, then I’d say you still have a lot of explaining to do. (That’s why the TTSS story doesn’t impress me: it’s a very long way from 10 to 30.)

You could suppose the existence of some “magic pathway,” where the successive addition of each new part somehow generates a new biological function, but then you’ve got to confront the configuration question: when I add a new part, do I substantially retain the old configuration of parts, or do I reshuffle the parts I already have? The idea that 30 succcessive biological functions could appear by the successive addition of parts to an existing configuration without any re-shuffling beggars belief, and the idea that dramatic reshuffling of the configuration could generate this successive appearance of functions as the structure gets bigger and bigger also appears ludicrous: it’s too much of a miracle.

Yes, you could imagine two or more smaller functional structures evolving in parallel and then coming together to make a bigger 30-part system. But the more sub-units you invoke, the harder it is to envisage them all coming together and producing something with a new function of its own. It’s much more likely that the sub-units wouldn’t mesh properly.

So I’d like to ask Professor Moran: how do you envisage the bacterial flagellum evolving? I’m not asking for lots of details here – just a conceptual scenario will be fine. They say a picture is worth a thousand words. Personally, I’d be happy with two or three simple pictures, because I really can’t picture any good way of building an irreducibly complex structure with 30 parts, without making a lot of “iffy” assumptions.

Darwinists can’t keep up with the science

One way in which a layperson like myself can tell when someone’s losing a scientific argument is when the number of new facts they can’t explain keeps growing faster than their ability to generate hypotheses to explain old facts. Looking at what has been happening in the field of research relating to the bacterial flagellum, this is precisely what seems to be happening. Professor Michael Behe’s 2007 book, The Edge of Evolution, has a whole Appendix devoted to what scientists now know about how the flagellum is built, and the system of controls that regulate its construction. Behe writes:

Complex, functional structures such as the cilium and flagellum are just the beginning. They demand intricate machinery and control programs to build them. Without those support systems. the final structure wouldn’t be possible. The bacterial flagellum contains several dozen protein parts. The cilium, which has so far resisted investigation of its DNA control program, has several hundred. There is every reason to think that the control of its construction will have to be much more intricate than that of the flagellum. (2007, p. 100)

In a diagram on page 99, Behe adds:

Genes for the construction of the bacterial flagellum are activated in a precisely timed fashion. Those needed for the construction of the bottom of the molecular machine are switched on first, followed in order by those needed for more distant parts.

Wait a minute. There’s a timing sequence? That really creates problems for evolutionary scenarios where you have lots of little sub-units coming together to make a flagellum, doesn’t it? How did the timing for the activation of the genes get re-regulated, so that the whole thing would develop in the right sequence, from bottom to top? I’m not saying it’s impossible. All I’m saying is: if I were a Darwinian, I’d be pouring myself a brandy. Your headache isn’t getting better; it’s getting worse.

Back to the citric acid cycle

I declared at the beginning of this post that I wouldn’t be contesting Professor Moran’s claim that the citric acid cycle evolved in a Darwinian fashion. But that doesn’t mean that I think the components of the system evolved in a stepwise fashion. I’m talking about enzymes here. I couldn’t help noticing that one of these enzymes is called citrate synthase. Here’s what Wikipedia says about it:

Citrate synthase’s 437 amino acid residues are organized into two main subunits, each consisting of 20 alpha-helices. These alpha helices compose approximately 75% of citrate synthase’s tertiary structure, while the remaining residues mainly compose irregular extensions of the structure, save a single beta-sheet of 13 residues. Between these two subunits, a single cleft exists containing the active site.

437 amino acids? We’re really talking about configuration problems here, if we try to imagine a step-wise scenario for its origin. I’ll let readers have a look at the beast, and judge for themselves:

Those who are familiar with the work of Dr. Douglas Axe will recognize the problem I’m talking about. Only a tiny fraction of amino acid sequences are in any way functional. The odds against proteins such as citrate synthase forming in this way are astronomical.

I’m sure that Professor Moran will insist that there are other more likely explanations for the origins of proteins. What about RNA, for instance? OK, fine. I have just one question. Can you point out an alternative scenario, and show me some calculations (back-of-the-envelope will do) indicating that your scenario is more likely to generate a functional protein than the nightmare scenario of building up an amino acid chain step by step? If you can’t quantify, then you’re not doing science. Well, what are you doing? Theorizing. Mmm. That sounds like religion to me. Don’t you think?

Comments
Nick, Evolution and evolvability are fine by ID conceptually. What is argued is: (i) how to get to functionality in the first place; (ii) what formal functionality and meaning are and how they came about in living systems; (iii) the extent to which biosystems are evolvable. It is true that living systems are complex, possibly even redundantly complex which allows for evolution as such to occur (which in fact is nothing more than rearrangement of the already existing function). 'The mechanics' of modern bioresearch or the validity thereof are not disputed. It is only the interpretations of the results that are. Irrespective of all misunderstandings on both sides, serious grounds for ID argumentation do exist.Eugene S
December 22, 2011
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Correction to the OP- The T3SS contains about 30 proteins, 10 of which are similar to (could be homologous) flagella proteins. And THAT is what the evolution from one to the other problematic- you have quite a bit of subtracting and adding that needs to be done.Joe
December 22, 2011
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Petrushka, "There has never been a time in the history of science when supernatural intervention was the useful hypothesis." This controversy is deeply rooted in history of scientific thought. I did not expect you not to know this. A thesis and an anti-thesis as usual. Don't underestimate the theistic impulse in science as it gives metaphysical motivation to science, without which science will be castrated. Partly, we are seeing this happening today.Eugene S
December 22, 2011
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I agree that we should distinguish between systems and processes. I also think that it is absolutely essential to talk about formal function following Abel. "Chemistry" can be spontaneous as Prigogine et al argue. That is fine by me. However, function cannot because function means purpose and purpose means choice contingency. That is why evolutionists resist to the last in front of evidence of semiosis in nature.Eugene S
December 22, 2011
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NickMatzke:
Re: someone else’s comment — you don’t get to say “hey, evolutionists, the flagellum is a great argument against evolution!” and then when people point out all the ways your argument falls apart...
Yet no one has ever shown how the flagellum argument falls apart. All YOU have ever done is point out there are some similarities between flagella proteins and other proteins. You 1) have NEVER provded a testable hypothesis for the premise that flagella can arise via an accumulation of random mutations nor 2) any testable way that the proteins can be configured correctly via stochastic processes. IOW Nick all you are is a legend in your own mind. But anyway Nick that you avoided the meat of my post pretty much demonstrates that you have nothing.Joe
December 22, 2011
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Nick, Most of the time homolgy, ie common descent, is ASSUMED due to sequence similarity. However sequence similarity can be due to convergence and/ or a common design. Also you still think ID is anti-evolution, meaning that you don't know a damn thing about ID. So there isn't any point discussing anything with you seeing that A) You do NOT understand ID and B) You cannot suport your claim that the bacterial flagellum arose via an accumulation of random mutations. I bet you can't even produce a testable hypothesis for that. Pathetic...Joe
December 22, 2011
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Anyway, I think it is useful to make a distinction between a PROCESS ans a SYSTEM. The flagelum is an IC functional system. Citric acyd cycle, like blood-clotting cascade, are processes. I think there are more that enough reasons to assert than neither a IC system nor a process of the like of the blood-cloting cascade can emerge just by chance. But I am not sure that the theoretical approach to show it should be the same. That is why, probably, Dr Behe adapted his definition of IC to the case of the B-C cascadefelipe
December 21, 2011
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Joe, Very simple yet totally valid point. It's not so much 'the parts' that make up the bacterial flagellum and whether or not they are homologous to other 'parts' within similar systems that is the question here, but how these systems assembled themselves to carry out their 'specified functions' in the first place. Saying something isn't IC because it shares 'parts' with other systems doesn't answer this.PeterJ
December 21, 2011
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But anyway homology is one thing.
But you guys can't even get the basics of the homology facts about the flagellum correct -- vjtorley doesn't in his post, and none of you have corrected them, even though they are well-known to people who have bothered to look into it. There's no point in discussing anything else until you guys get that right and identify the errors in vjtorley's statements about the number of required flagellum parts and their homologies. Your let's-distract-from-vjtorley's-utter-ignorance-about-flagellum-homologies argument is also wrong, e.g. it assumes that the evolution of a binding site is hard, when actually it is pretty easy. Re: someone else's comment -- you don't get to say "hey, evolutionists, the flagellum is a great argument against evolution!" and then when people point out all the ways your argument falls apart, switch to "oh well, actually I meant the flagellum doesn't matter at all, what I really meant is that you haven't explained anything unless you explain the origin of life itself while you're at it." It's called moving the goalposts and it's a pointless, insipid tactic and a tacit acknowledgement of defeat on the original argument.NickMatzke_UD
December 21, 2011
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Pathetic- If you don't like the design inference just start producing evidence that stochastic processes can design irreducibly complex configurations. Otherwise you are just whining from ignorance...Joe
December 21, 2011
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Nick, You still have to explain those other alledgedly related proteins with different functions. But then again, as I said you HAVE to start with that which requires an explanation in the first place. And that is why we don't take you seriously...Joe
December 21, 2011
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Nick, Can accumulations of random mutations even account for ONE of the required flagellum proteins? I would love to see that. But anyway homology is one thing. Taking 30-40 different proteins of differing quantities and configuring in such a way as to be useful is something entirely different. Could be coopted? Via the mechanism of "it just happened"? How do we test any of your claims that A) random mutations can create the required proteins and B) once created the right amounts and propoer configuration would just emerge? Or do you still just not give a damn about science?Joe
December 21, 2011
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Also, how can anyone dare to raise a question about how citrate synthase without even bothering to do a BLAST search or literature search to see if there are any related proteins with different functions? To even have something worth reading in a journal, any evolutionary biologist would, at a minimum, have to download all related sequences, align them, and run several different phylogeny packages on them, and then compare the phylogenetic trees that each package found to see where citrate synthase fits in the phylogeny under different statistical methods (usually they don't differ much). Often this gives you HUGE hints about the origins of a system. If one hasn't done this, one really shouldn't talk about how the origin of the system is implausible, undocumented, etc.NickMatzke_UD
December 21, 2011
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437 amino acids? We’re really talking about configuration problems here, if we try to imagine a step-wise scenario for its origin.
You may be getting ahead of yourself considering you've just stated:
I couldn’t help noticing that one of these enzymes is called citrate synthase. Here’s what Wikipedia says about it
We're talking about a protein that's new to you and your knowledge begins and ends with Wikipedia. Should you really be speculating about its origins and evolution? You seem impressed by its length at 437 amino acids. Sometimes its not the size but how you use it: how many of these residues are essential to the enzyme's function and how many could be substituted to a different amino acid without disabling its function?paulmc
December 21, 2011
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"Improbable simply means you don’t understand the mechanism." And so you would then agree that the highly improbable odds underlying the probabilistic nature of evolution means that... "There has never been a time in the history of science when supernatural intervention was the useful hypothesis." Sure it has, there have been various studies done on the efficacy of prayer and other such notions. What has never been useful are hypotheses that are untestable or unfalsifiable. Both crosses are borne by the angry siblings, ID and Evolution.Maus
December 21, 2011
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Wow. Just, wow. So, blood-clotting isn't IC, even though Behe says it is, and the TCA cycle isn't IC, even though Behe has claimed certain metabolic pathways as IC on other occasions. And, to top it off, vjtorley is asking questions about the flagellum that were asked and answered years ago, as if no answers exist. C'mon, ID folks, I'm not going to do your work for you this time. If you guys are serious about doing science, you will correct vjtorley's abyssmally poor research in this thread. Please tell him: How many flagellum proteins are actually universally required? How many of those flagellum proteins have homologs to other proteins within the flagellum? How many of those flagellum proteins have homologs to nonflagellar systems? Of those proteins with nonflagellar homologs, how many of them are (a) functionally isolated from other flagellar proteins, i.e. they would have to be coopted into the flagellum one-at-a-time, versus (b) functionally connected to other flagellar homologs, i.e. they could be coopted as a preexisting complex of several nonflagellar proteins which already interact with each other before becoming part of the flagellum? This is flagellum 101 stuff guys, I've put it all free online. If you don't clean up your own house and do the relevant literature research before opening your big mouth about some topic you know virtually nothing about, you have zero chance of ever getting to the status of serious science.NickMatzke_UD
December 21, 2011
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Improbable simply means you don't understand the mechanism. There has never been a time in the history of science when supernatural intervention was the useful hypothesis. But it has been popular. Even Newton indulged.Petrushka
December 21, 2011
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Behe's original concept, obvious from the term he gave it, was intended as a way to rule out the evolutionary development of an irreducibly complex system.lastyearon
December 21, 2011
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Vincent, If Irreducible complexity is not about impossibilities, only improbabilities, it loses its any substance, and becomes just another argument from ignorance.lastyearon
December 21, 2011
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Yes, if you use what needs to be explained in the first place to do the explaining then the claim of IC could appear to disappear. Also if you don't understand the concept it is easier to erect and refute a strawman. And why don't "they" seem to understand that by demonstrating that a 3-part configuration can arise via stochastic processes that does NOT mean a 40-part configuration can arise via stochastic processes. It's the other way around- once it is demonstrated that a 40-part configuration can arise via stochastic processes that takes care of everything of equal or fewer number of parts in the configuration.Joe
December 21, 2011
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And forget about Dembski.Bilbo I
December 21, 2011
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Goodness gracious, VJ, there's no need to abandon the blood-clotting cascade as not being IC. The reason that Behe doesn't accept metabolic pathways as IC has nothing to do with a temporal arrangement of reactions. It has to do with the fact that the proteins do not interact with each other. Instead, each protein (or enzyme) interacts with a substrate. Such a system could evolve one protein at a time, with the last substrate being the first one that was used by the organism, with additional substrates being available that can be turned into the last one, once the necessary protein is available, also. Try reading Behe's chapter on it.Bilbo I
December 21, 2011
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