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Stolen Obligations: Why do atheists care about truth, reason or morality?

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Truth, rationality, and morality under naturalism, are irrelevant commodities, in and of themselves. The naturalist’s (atheistic materialist’s) concern with truth, reason and morality are stolen obligations – obligations that are not derivable from naturalism.

If minds are the computed product of physics, they output whatever they output.  There is no ideal form, perfection, or “truth” outside of what physics produces in any particular instance to compare what physics produces against.  Whatever any individual computation of physics outputs with the label “rational” attached is the natural limit of what can be termed “rational”.  There’s nothing the individual can compare it against; they are stuck with their own ruler and no means by which to check its length.  What is considered “true” can be both X and not-X.

Similarly, morality is just whatever physics says it is.  Like a computer programmed to output “3” when asked “what is 1 + 1”, the computer is not in error, it is simply producing the output determined by its program.  “3” is only an “error” if one assumes there is some standard outside of that program by which to judge it; under naturalism, there is not. If the physics ends up in some case saying it is moral to behead infidels, then it is moral in that case; if in some other case it says it is immoral to do so, then it is immoral in that case.  Under naturalism, what is moral can be both X and not-X; there is no absolute arbiter.

Under naturalism, truth, reason and morality are all relative, subjective commodities (being entirely mental phenomena), housed in a mind produced by forces unconcerned with truth, reason and morality, generated by a process only “concerned” with reproductive success.  At the very core, mind cannot be said to have anything whatsoever to do with reason, truth or morality; those are just titles we assign to various output as our particular individual physics commands as those physics pursue reproductive success.

Which brings up the question: why do atheists, materialists and naturalists care whether or not their arguments are rational? Why do they care if what others say is untrue?  Why are they concerned with appearing to be “moral” or to have moral cares and considerations? Why bother with any of that at all, considering that the basis of their existence is not assumed to be about any of those things, nor is their any intrinsic reason to care about them under their paradigm?

If life is fundamentally about reproductive success, what’s the point of caring about truth, reason or morality, per se?  I find it odd that under a paradigm where those things have no intrinsic or ultimate value in and of themselves, many atheists go to great lengths to demonstrate they are more moral, more rational, and more truthful than theists. Why? Who cares? Are there points being scored somewhere for being moral, truthful, or rational?

No, under atheism/materialism/naturalism, the only points being scored are for producing children, and statistics show that atheists produce less children than theists (something they are often proud of, strangely enough).  However, they don’t seem to have read the memo.  They still argue and act as if they have some kind of binding, necessary obligation to truth, reason, and morality.

Comments
"Do you conclude therefore it is not possible to argue or present evidence for one view or the other?" Clearly not in an open system with no agreed values or moral assumptions/conclusions. You can not even justify the concept of "fair" in any meaningful objective way because true equality exists no where in the universe (with respect to capabilities and exact circumstances). Without an appeal to moral absolutes your temporary benevolence is an illusion which will eternally fade long after you are gone... There seems to be quite a bit of confusion in this thread regarding the alleged "subjectivity" of theism and whether it differs from atheism in regards to individual assumption. First, the objective existence of a Creator is not dependent on individual assumption...such Creator either Is or Is not "objectively." Your disbelief in such Creator does not validate or invalidate the Creator's objective self-existence or being. Second, what seems completely missing from uncommon descent (which I have been noticing) is how we funnel truth from a foundational basis through cumulative case argument. This is essential in establishing/allowing theistic implications from scientific observation(s). Without a cumulative case argument you are not funneling truth up through a solid foundation and have therefore failed to make a valid connection between agnostic theism and monotheistic conclusions. Perhaps before the atheists can even see the difference between objective moral appeals (to a Creator) and subjective moral appeals (which fail miserably) they need to first see how theistic conclusion is funneled through a cumulative case argument.Breckmin
August 3, 2013
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Phineas
Mark: In many issues, including morals, there is no ultimate objective criterion, but we are still able to conduct rational conversation as though there were. p: Your meaning seems pretty clear to me. You assert that a particular thing is not the case and then call it “rational” to have a conversation as though it were the case. That you are under no illusions regarding this disconnect between belief and behavior does nothing to demonstrate rationality. Quite the contrary.
Fair enough. I didn't phrase that correctly. I should have written: In many issues, including morals, there is no ultimate objective criterion, but we are still able to conduct rational conversation using the many of the same arguments and evidence as we would if there an objective criterion. Do you seriously doubt that we can produce arguments and evidence for the vast range of subjective assessments and decisions we make every day? Let's take an example from today's news. Are the Zimbabwe elections free and fair? Surely you must admit this is to some extent a matter of opinion - even if everyone knew and agreed every detail about what is happening there would be some people who would think that they are free and fair and others who would not. Do you conclude therefore it is not possible to argue or present evidence for one view or the other?Mark Frank
July 31, 2013
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Elizabeth,
I don’t think torturing babies is ever justified, Querius. I think allowing babies to die, with palliative care only, occasionally is.
Yes, I agree. Of course, late-term abortion comes to mind (we don't hear their screams as they die). I had a professor once who advocated legalizing postnatal abortions of up to 24 months on the theory that babies do not become human until then (redefinition), and that having an unwanted baby is a form of child abuse (irrational because presumably a "child" is a human). I suppose in his enlightened scheme, the toddlers would be sedated first.Querius
July 31, 2013
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Alan Fox @ 195:
What is your motive for altruism, then, Barb?
I think I may have answered this question already on another thread. Anyway, for me, altruism is the result of love for God and neighbor.
I find that the opportunity to help someone arises and I do what I can. I don’t analyse it too much until perhaps I get the feeling of being taken advantage of, though I can’t recall it being an issue.
My concept of altruism is best described as “unselfish giving.” I don’t usually consider whether or not I’m being taken advantage of, like you, but I just feel that helping others whenever and wherever I can is what I should be doing.
I am repelled by dogma and proselytism.
I think a lot of nonreligious people feel this way, but some who are religious, Christians included, view proselytism as altruistic giving.
It is obvious to me that social order is linked with religion as a controlling influence.
Well, if you’re talking about the influence religion has in the US, you may have a point. But there are plenty of secular societies where religion’s role has greatly diminished. France is an example.
What religion is a personal choice. I happen to go for “none of the above” though Buddhism does interest me (or rather some of what the Dalai Lama has written – “The World in a Single Atom”, for instance – gells with me).
I’ve heard Buddhism humorously described as religion for atheists, because belief in a personal God is not necessary. Interestingly, for Buddhists no act is sin. The idea of sin is unknown. It is simply the case of a bad act’s producing a bad result. Thus if one were a Buddhist it would be difficult for him to realize the results produced by sin, or, in fact, to recognize himself as a sinner. In terms of the discussion here, morality is subjective, not objective for Buddhists. For Buddhists, what is practical is important, not ritual (or dogma). The Buddha taught that enlightenment and salvation—the perfection of Nirvana—come, not from any God or external force, but from within a person by his own effort in good deeds and right thoughts. But can the perfection of Nirvana truly come from something (or someone) imperfect?
As to Jesus, the man, no problem, his ideas as filtered by the new testament, no problem.
So you agree that Jesus was a historical person.
The supernatural hocus-pocus detracts from the concepts of sharing, fellow-feeling and co-operation.
Actually, I think it emphasizes the concepts of sharing. Remember Jesus feeding 5,000 people with a few loaves and fishes?
I remain unconvinced that there is any society that lives genuinely by the philosophy that Jesus (as filtered) espoused.
I don’t think there is truly a society that does either, but that does not mean that his teachings aren’t valuable.Barb
July 31, 2013
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Phin: It is irrational to argue as though an illusion were true.
Mark: I did not mean to imply that we are under the illusion it is objective.
Of course not. Did my statement imply otherwise? You said this:
Mark: In many issues, including morals, there is no ultimate objective criterion, but we are still able to conduct rational conversation as though there were.
Your meaning seems pretty clear to me. You assert that a particular thing is not the case and then call it "rational" to have a conversation as though it were the case. That you are under no illusions regarding this disconnect between belief and behavior does nothing to demonstrate rationality. Quite the contrary.Phinehas
July 31, 2013
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Andre #220 What makes you think predetermination is a shackle. If all it means that your needs and wishes determine your decisions that is hardly a loss of freedom.Mark Frank
July 31, 2013
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Phineas
Either you are presenting evidence toward a conclusion that one choice is objectively better than the other, or you are stretching the word “evidence” beyond its breaking point such that we could speak of “evidence” that chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla ice cream. You can’t have it both ways.
There are very few real decisions that are settled on purely objective grounds.   Any decision that has to take into account people’s preferences is subjective. Are you saying that none of these can involve evidence? What if you are not sure whether it is an objective decision or not? You might be under the illusion that you are providing evidence only to find that it was not evidence at all because there was a subjective element.
It is irrational to argue as though an illusion were true. You confirm my point in saying that it makes surprisingly little difference in practice. Why is it so surprising?
I did not mean to imply that we are under the illusion it is objective. I just mean we use the same types of arguments.  When I used the word “surprising” I meant that you might find it surprising. I don’t find it surprising and most people don’t care about the difference.Mark Frank
July 31, 2013
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Phin: If the pros cannot objectively outweigh the cons or the cons cannot objectively outweigh the pros and there cannot be an objectively right or wrong answer, exactly what evidence and reasoning are available beyond stating personal preferences?
Mark: Quite a lot. I can point out consequences that the other side have not thought of. “Do you realise that this road will create a parking problem as well.” I can compare the situation to others. “This is a smaller road than the one in village X and the residents accepted that” I can point out inconsistencies in their argument. “You don’t want a road but you are quite happy to have a small airport which would be even more unsightly” I can make emotional appeals “Do you really want this beautiful countryside covered in a sea of concrete for generations to come”
Either you are presenting evidence toward a conclusion that one choice is objectively better than the other, or you are stretching the word "evidence" beyond its breaking point such that we could speak of "evidence" that chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla ice cream. You can't have it both ways. Either you are reasoning toward an objective conclusion or you've mangled the meaning of "reason" such that we can "reason" our way to whether vanilla ice cream is better than chocolate ice cream or not. Again, you can't have it both ways.
Mark: In many issues, including morals, there is no ultimate objective criterion, but we are still able to conduct rational conversation as though there were. And it makes surprisingly little difference in most cases because there is sufficient agreement (although occasionally we hit an impasse where all the arguments have been exhausted and now we vote or fight or whatever)
It is irrational to argue as though an illusion were true. You confirm my point in saying that it makes surprisingly little difference in practice. Why is it so surprising? Precisely because it is irrational to argue as though an illusion were true. The lengths to which you will go to redefine the meaning of words demonstrates how much you really want the illusion to be an illusion instead of the objective reality you need it to be in order to make an argument in the first place. Yes, this is surprisingly irrational.Phinehas
July 31, 2013
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Ain't free will a b@#$h, your are free to choose whatever you want to believe Lartanner, Just a question for you? If everything is predetermined and there is no free will how can one open his mind? Are you suggesting that the shackles of predetermination can be broken with a mind? I don't get how you can open your mind if there is no free will, you are suggesting with that statement that you are obviously more powerful than all the rules of the universe, maybe you should think about the fact that you can have an open mind and what that means, take your time.Andre
July 31, 2013
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I do not disagree with the Creator about anything. And there is nothing I find hard to take.
If unsurprising, this statement is sad and terrifying. A complete abdication of reason, humanity, and morality. Please do consider opening your mind. Make the effort. To start, you might look first at the textual scholarship of the holy books. Once you see that the texts are clearly man-made and derivative, you'll realize that you new age jazz has been mere self-indulgence.LarTanner
July 31, 2013
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I'm perfectly happy to let you have the last word, LT. And I think you've had it. But then you asked a question which you seem to want an answer to... not sure you can do that if you want to have the last word.
But, please, do answer this one request. Just this: Please tell me about specific points of morality on which you disagree with your One True God. There must be something – anything – you find hard to take.
Anyway, I'll answer: I do not disagree with the Creator about anything. And there is nothing I find hard to take. All the best, LT.Chris Doyle
July 31, 2013
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Chris @ 216, Then let me have the last word because you were asked some decent questions that you could have answered without reading too far into theology. For instance, you didn't need theology to admit the distinction between one theistic worldview that you hold, and the very many different theistic worldviews that are available. You also don't need theology to recognize that some of the differences between these view are great enough to lead to incompatible or even conflicting conclusions about reality and morality. Neither do you need to discuss theology to admit that existence of a god -- even the god of the classical Christian theist tradition -- has no necessary connection to universal morality or any morality at all. This is a matter of logic and your challenge is to make an argument that actually uses logic instead of nonsensical, pablum assertions like "There is only One God, but He has many names. Likewise there is only One Moral Law: the one at the heart of theistic morality." You are not arguing but simply flatulating new agey junk. If you are interested in a good argument, you need first to learn to make one yourself. Your comment at 216 is strike three for you, however. There's no argument there, only retreat and silly lies about Lizzie and Mark's arguments. Unfortunately, creationists/IDists/theists have lying down to an art form -- it's a matter of emotional preservation I guess. So, look, I really don't want to have a discussion with you. In three comments, in addition to the logical flailing, you've provided no insight, knowledge, or approaches of any value whatsoever. You've offered no challenge, so I shall relent and move on. You're welcome. But, please, do answer this one request. Just this: Please tell me about specific points of morality on which you disagree with your One True God. There must be something - anything - you find hard to take. If you feel healthier, maybe you could explain why you think theism is the only source of morality. Or, more properly, why do you think non-theist consequentialist, deontological, and virtue-type ethical theories are inadequate. But I don't expect you to answer this question (or any of my questions, really; it's an understandable habit of creationists/IDists/theists to ask questions and demand answers but not to answer questions themselves). You also should keep searching, and might I suggest that yours is the mind that needs opening. Really...think hard about this. Your allusion to Hamlet is noted, but I think Shakespeare would probably facepalm to see his words used in the context for which you highjack them.LarTanner
July 31, 2013
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I'm sorry to disappoint you, LT. If you're looking for a full and detailed theological discussion, you're not going to get one from me, not here anyway. If we're discussing theistic morality, you simply have to take the truth of theism as a given, even if you cannot fully appreciate or even understand the theological knowledge that is brought to bear on this discussion. And rest assured, I am not remotely interested in attempting to persuade you to accept theological truth. This is exactly how I treat atheistic morality - by assuming the truth of atheism without quibbling about irrelevant details - it is the only way to keep the conversation focused. And, unlike many online discussions, actually achieves results and reaches a conclusion! Lizzie once again affirmed the effective failure of atheistic morality (see 171 and 172) and Mark once again had to resort to substituting subjectivity for objectivity: you couldn't make a more fatal and self-defeating substitution if you tried (see 189 and 191). I am solely motivated by a good argument. I want to test my position and my arguments to make sure they withstand scrutiny. Though sometimes I intervene solely to set the record straight. Well, I am now more than happy with the record. And I don't see any good arguments, no challenge to rise to. So, if that's everything, let's agree to "just forget it". In the meantime, keep searching with an open mind. There are more things in heaven and earth, LT, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.Chris Doyle
July 31, 2013
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Lartanner No free will you say? How do you know that? Perhaps you believe that, based on your opinion, thus you choose to believe there is no free will.... But how did you choose that if there is in fact no free will? What did you choose to wear today? What did you choose from the menu at lunch time? Did you choose to help that old lady stuck in trying to cross the street or not? I mean all of these menial things are your choices....Andre
July 31, 2013
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And Prophet-Chris, For someone who berated the logical skills of people back in comment 197, your last two responses have been very disappointing. You have been vague and illogical, using imprecise language and jumping to unwarranted conclusions. Please show up in your next response or let's just forget it.LarTanner
July 31, 2013
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Chris, You mis-speak:
if the theistic worldview is true, then there is in fact only one universal Moral Law that we are all aware of
No, if a theistic worldview is true, and a rather specific worldview at that. Also, it does not necessarily follow that if morality comes from a god that this morality would either be universal or one that we were all aware of, internally and externally.
This notion that there are different Gods to choose from is false. There is only One God, but He has many names.
ORLY? Is this the religion of Doyle-ism? I love that Dawkins quote. It's mainly consistent with what I have said, but yeah I disagree with "the Atheistic Messiah," as you call Dawkins. Tell me, O prophet of Doyle-ism, on what do you disagree with your messiah? I disagree with Dawkins and I admit it, so perhaps he's not the messiah you say he is. But do you disagree with your Jesus or Mohammed or whomever you think is supposed to be the bees' knees? Do you at times think your One True God really screwed the pooch, so to speak, on this or that decision?LarTanner
July 31, 2013
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Hi LT, if the theistic worldview is true, then there is in fact only one universal Moral Law that we are all aware of, internally and externally (every people had their Prophets sent to teach us lessons about the Moral Law and to warn those who choose to break it). Jews, Christians, Muslims: the Truth is in their scriptures. This notion that there are different Gods to choose from is false. There is only One God, but He has many names. Likewise there is only One Moral Law: the one at the heart of theistic morality. The only question is, how can you learn and follow it? But that's a question which is meaningless if you're an atheist so let's move on. You got the wrong end of the stick when I mentioned a Godless universe. What I had in mind was the (atheistically irrefutable) words of the Atheistic Messiah, Richard Dawkins.
In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.
Chris Doyle
July 31, 2013
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Mark, it seems like you do understand me, basically. The point is, I don't see any weight at all if there is no objective moral issue involved. You say there is weight, but you are just hiding the door where the weight is sneaking in from, namely that people are concerned for their community. I notice, though, you didn't say the communities "best" interest at heart. That leaves us with a giant hole as to what kind of interest.Brent
July 31, 2013
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LT, I don't think the molecules of your brain are comprehending the severity of the problem.bornagain77
July 31, 2013
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Chris @ 203, Terrific. Therefore, when I say theistic morality depends on the Theos, I am saying something you should agree with. You cannot just assert, as you do in 173, that "Theistic morality does not depend upon anything." Theistic morality depends at least on (a) the existence of the Theos, (b) the specific identity of the Theos, and ( c) the unambiguous authority of the Theos. Also, when you say "theistic morality" do you mean morality as derived from the law-giving God whose instructions appear in the Torah? Do you mean also or exclusively the Pharisaic-type morality sketched in the Greek Testament? Do you mean the precepts offered in the Qu'ran? Mainly, I want to know whether the important point for you is that morality have a Theos at its source or whether your point is that morality comes from a specific Theos (yours, of course -- there's no way you would worship the wrong go in the wrong manner!). Finally, I cannot let go this laffer: "In a Godless universe, there is no morality. Or good, or evil, or free-will, or meaning." As written, what you say here is too vague and emotionally charged to be helpful. What you really mean is that in our universe, morality is a human invention, as are good, evil, free-will, and meaning. This revision is still vague -- after all, philosophically minded people have been arguing about and defining the metaphysical status of the these concepts for centuries upon centuries. The point is that you don't mean "no morality whatsoever" so much as "no morality of the type you ardently desire."LarTanner
July 31, 2013
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Brent I struggle to understand you but I will try to address your point. By "weight" I simply mean that the outcome matters to everyone concerned. It is not just a matter of personal whim like ice-cream. I don't see it as being a moral matter in this case because I am assuming that everyone has the whole community's interest at heart (unrealistic but this a theoretical possibility to illustrate a point - not a natural history). This still leaves it as a subjective matter as to what is the community's interest. The other, equally important, point is that is quite possible to have rational discussions with complex valid reasoning over this subjective issue. To repeat - the main point is that subjective does not necessarily mean trivial debate. (And indeed objective issues can easily lead to trivial debate)Mark Frank
July 31, 2013
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Mark @199,
It is deliberately not in the moral domain.
From what I gather you are discussing, it is falsely "not in the moral domain", and implies that it really is in the moral domain because the "weight" only comes in when, or if, the discussion ends and people start knocking heads. Until then, there is no weight, just discussion. Heated perhaps, but discussion doesn't seem to have any particular weight to it, unless you would like to say that it is morally imperative that people with differences of opinion and desire that conflict with one another's ought to discuss things civilly. I doubt you want to say that though.Brent
July 31, 2013
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True or false: morality depends on God.
I say "false" because the law-giver doesn't need to be God. So in a materialist universe there wouldn't be any overriding morality.Joe
July 31, 2013
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Hijacking forgiveness? But if there is no objective moral standard, who is to say that an act was/is morally wrong? The atheist simply does not have an objective moral standard to appeal to, whereas the Theist, especially the Christian Theist, is acutely aware of the fact that God's perfect moral standard is the mark that all have fallen short of. Colossians 3:13 Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. Matthew 18:21-22 & 32-33 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’bornagain77
July 31, 2013
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Speaking of stolen obligations, this one gave me a smile when I came across it recently on Amazon:
Beyond Revenge: The Evolution of the Forgiveness Instinct Psychologist Michael McCullough argues that the key to a more forgiving, less vengeful world is to understand the evolutionary forces that gave rise to these intimately human instincts and the social forces that activate them in human minds today. Drawing on exciting breakthroughs from the social and biological sciences, McCullough dispenses surprising and practical advice for making the world a more forgiving place.
steveO
July 31, 2013
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LT: true. In a Godless universe, there is no morality. Or good, or evil, or free-will, or meaning.Chris Doyle
July 31, 2013
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No Mark, I live in the real world where objectivity counts and anyone who attempts to substitute it for subjectivity will soon be found out. As you have been. After all, anything you assert that is truly subjective can be completely dismissed for being subjective. And no-one wil ever know who is truly right or wrong. Only might is right. If you reduce morality to that, it fails. All you are basically saying is that even the most subjective matter often depends upon objective facts. The only thing that makes the decision "serious" is that it is actually concerned with objective truth.Chris Doyle
July 31, 2013
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Chris @ 180, True or false: morality depends on God.LarTanner
July 31, 2013
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Chris #191 You may inhabit a barren world where no one goes beyond repeating their preferences (this would explain a lot of your comments). However, I have found that people will in practice actually make serious rational points about issues like this - combined with less rational arguments. More to the point it is theoretically possible for them to make such arguments on a rational basis even though the final decision is subjective. Subjectivity does not preclude serious decisions based on rational debate - even if in your experience it rarely happens.Mark Frank
July 31, 2013
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Brent #190
Mark, I cannot comprehend in the least why you expect others (or why you do yourself) to take “substance and weight” to be equivalents of right or wrong.
I don't. I offered my example as a refutation of Phineas comment:
if there is no objective truth about right or wrong, then trying to persuade others (or demonstrate to others) that they ought to change their way of life has no more substance or weight than trying to persuade them to eat chocolate ice cream instead of vanilla
i.e. Phineas is arguing that lack of objectivity implies triviality. I am offering an example which is both subjective and non-trivial. It is deliberately not in the moral domain.Mark Frank
July 31, 2013
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