Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A Word About Our Moderation Policy

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Some commenters have raised questions regarding the propriety of recent posts and UD’s moderation policy. UD’s moderation policy is fairly simple: As a general rule, so long as your comment is not defamatory profane, or a vicious personal attack, you can say pretty much what you want. We have no interest in censoring viewpoints, because we believe ID is true and consequently in any full and fair debate we will win — and if we don’t win we either need to learn to debate better or change our position. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not opening this site up to nasty juvenile name-calling fests like one see so often at Panda’s Thumb.  But if you keep your comments restricted to ideas and not attacking people, you should have no problems passing muster here.

What about the “God-bashing” and the defenses of God that have appeared in these pages? God can take care of Himself. We at UD feel no need to protect Him from defamation. Bash away. Those who are offended by (or disagree with) the bashing are welcome to post such defenses as they deem appropriate. There are limits, however. This site is not intended to be a forum for extensive religious debates. Religious issues inevitably come up from time to time and people should feel free to discuss them from both sides when they do. But the moderators will exercise their judgment and gavel discussions that stray too far a field from the purpose of this site for too long.

I personally find the God-bashing disturbing. So why do I allow it? As one of my colleagues has aptly said, the wiser course, when someone attacks God is to let those UD commenters who are theists respond to the charges. Our readers will then be in a position to see: (1) that UD, unlike the Darwinists, doesn’t ban or censor ideas; and (2) that theism in general and Christianity in particular is quite capable of defending itself against lies, distortions, illogical arguments, and misunderstandings. Our role is not to censor ideas but to provide a forum where hard questions can be discussed calmly, fully, and fairly, and we trust that when that happens truth will prevail.

Certainly there is risk to this approach. Some will reject truth and embrace error. But the consequences of pursuing the alternative course – ignoring or even running from the hard questions – would be far worse.

Finally, some have asked whether we should even discuss “peripheral issues” at UD, such as Darwin’s racism or the implications of ID for the theodicy. This site is devoted not only to scientific theories of origins, but also to the metaphysical and moral implications of those theories. Plainly BOTH Darwinism and ID have implications beyond the science. Certainly Darwinsts like “intellectually fulfilled” atheist Richard Dawkins understand the metaphysical implications of Darwinism and talk about those implications ad nauseum. What hypocritical balderdash for anyone to suggest a double standard prohibiting those of us with a different point of view from doing the exact same thing from our perspective – and we will continue to do so.

Comments
All: I think we have a live case study in progress on selectively hyperskeptical thread hijacks, and the implicaitons of such tactics for the feasibility of serious dialogue on the merits at UD. {Oramus informs us threadjacking is the appropriate neologism, thanks O.) I have addressed the onward claims by GLF et al in the scepticism thread at 514 and 517. Money excerpt:
By my count, the [1986] BW 60+ [generation run of Weasel] case has 123 repeats of letters published, without reversion, and the NS 40+ one has 85 [total of sample points if therefore 208; i.e. "dozens" was a conservative statement], and wee see a consistent average rate of finding and latching letters here per generation, i.e. about 2.
By all accounts the Now celebrated 1987 video of Weasel in action does not latch, but here we can see that -- by drastic contrast -- latching is a dominant feature of the 1986 output. So, something is materially different between the cases, and that can only be in the program modules; whether or no the o/p's dominant latching is explicit or implicit in the code of 1986. [All of this is secondary to the fact that Weasel, as a targeted, warmer/colder search that rewards non-functional phrases -- by Mr Dawkins' own statement -- is irrelevant to any claims about a BLIND watchmaker. In short, the entire Weasel exercise is a grand begging of the question joined to a strawman misdirection on the issue of FSCI, i.e. the search space challenge to get TO islands of function.] So,a second issue we must face is something that I think we all need to observe from the annals of social psychology research:
Are you familiar with the old psychology experiements where a group is in a room looking at a display on a screen, and the majority says something that is actually obviously wrong? After a time of repetition, the only true subject of the experiment will as a rule adjust his view to agree with the others, as he has come to doubt his own eyes. THAT is how dangerous a selectively hyperskepticism- based pseudo-consensus is.
So, will we have dialogue constrained by facts and logic at UD, or will we have red herring threadjacks leading out to strawmen soaked in oil of ad hominem and ignited to cloud, blind, and poison the atmosphere required for reasonable discussion? Finally, I think the real balance on credibility is therefore quite different from what GLF alleges above. And so, this case in point on selective hyeprskepticism and the threadjacking -- double thanks Oramus -- tactics StephenB has highlighted at 71, in action is now plainly very relevant to the onward question of UD's moderation policy. Enough for now GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 16, 2009
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Kairosfocus
Please, do not make careless stat5ements that have accusatory import again.
So, you accuse Dawkins of dishonestly with no evidence other then your unwillingness to back down from a position shown to be wrong but complain about others? You said
And unless you knew that the 1986 published, sampled runs did the deed in 40+ and 60+ generations, you might not be alert to see that
And this is your "proof" for a "flickback module". JT points out
With a population of 500 and a 5% mutation rate, the total number of generations to the target varied drastically with different runs - everywhere from 36 to over 500.
https://uncommondescent.com/science/we-cannot-live-by-scepticism-alone/#comment-308039 So, your "proof" seems invalid. Defend it or retract it, as you like. But pretend it's refutation does not exist? It's perhaps telling that rather then consider the possiblitity you are in error you construct a situation where Dawkins deliberatly misleads. It's often said that we see in others traits which you really have yourself. Why are you avoiding that thread now, you seemed so very keen before you were shown to be wrong. Will you now withdraw your "flickback module" accusation? And I'm still waiting to see where the "dozens" of sample points you mention over and over are, as there are only 6 in the new scientist article you refer to. If you are right, and have the evidence to "prove" it then show the "dozens" of sample points you claim.George L Farquhar
March 16, 2009
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Arthur: Apology -- qualifications notwithstanding -- accepted. Please, do not make careless stat5ements that have accusatory import again. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 16, 2009
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“No. The onus is on you to clearly state what possible data would contradict your position, then to attempt to find it yourself. That is what scientists do. Note the word ‘possible’.” That is what I just suggested is being done. There are thousands of studies each year in evolutionary biology that is attempting to falsify the ID hypothesis and so far each one of them has failed. If you know of one that hasn’t, let me know and we will look at it.
On the contrary. There is not one study in evolutionary biology that has ever attempted to falsify the ID hypothesis. How could there be? There is no hypothesis to falsify. Remember, a hypothesis is a proposed, testable explanation for a body of observations. No-one has ever clearly stated a hypothesis using ID or proposed a feasible test. Saying 'too much complexity' or 'if an experiment fails, then ID' is woefully inadequate. What is needed is something along the lines of: If I do X and get result A, then ID has not been falsified. Otherwise, ID has been falsified. Notice: there is absolutely no mention of evolution: a hypothesis has to be tested on its own merits. Secondly, no test ever enables you to conclude that a theory is true. The best that can happen is that, after repeated attempts, you continue to fail to show that it is false. Now, please give us an example of feasible data that would falsify ID. This is the kind of thing that ID 'scientists' should be doing automatically. It is their failure to do so that prompts me to put the word in quotes.Richard Simons
March 15, 2009
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Hi all first post here. Jerry I have a question about information you might be able to help me with. In Information Theory there are 2 separate domains (simply put:purpose and symbol rate) which of those domains does your use of 'information' cover? Thanks in advanceA I Tinny
March 15, 2009
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jerry,
his is a begging the question that it actually happened this way or that it generated new information.
this is not begging the question bc the hypothesis that it did happen is supported by reams of evidence. go to allen's post on the topic; it is summarized there. no serious debate about the topic exists anywhere; indeed, all you were able to do to contradict it was point to a web site that contained numerous factual ad logical errors and no serious arguments.
Besides I already conceded this is a possibility but it does not represent the changes we are asking about in the microbe to man scenario.
excuse me? the gain of organelles that represent one of the fundamental shifts from prokaryotic to eukaryotic life are not the changes you are seeking? what could be more fundamental than that on your microbe to man pathway?
Besides, how do you know it created multiple organelles.
again, bc of the extensive body of literature ont he subject. the chloroplast and mitochondrion have the solidest evidence. again, go to allen's site or google chloroplast evolution for yourself. the rest of your quote is a repeat of what I addressed int he previous post.. extremely good evidence suggests that chlorplasts and mitochondria evolved through endosymbiosis and we can observe similar processes happening in the lab today. this is more than one example and good evidence that this is more than a one-time fluke and is indeed a general trend in nature. unless you have some serious counter-evidence to offer this makes your constant "hyperbole" about no evidence for macroevolution a true argument from ignorance.Khan
March 15, 2009
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For those who want to believe what khan said about me, they should read https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/an-open-challenge-to-neo-darwinists-what-would-it-take-to-falsify-your-theory/#comment-305719 to see who is the honest one here.jerry
March 15, 2009
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khan, You have been answered several times. You are like the carnival game where you knock down the doll into a hole and up it pops in another hole. "mutations enabling the insertion and activation of genetic material from one organism to the other had to occur. so you can not simply say that endosymbiosis is just exchange of information;" "a lot of new information had to be generated in the process" This is a begging the question that it actually happened this way or that it generated new information. How do you know it had to occur or it did generate new information? Besides I already conceded this is a possibility but it does not represent the changes we are asking about in the microbe to man scenario. I also told you about the use of hyperbole in order to draw out what may be there. It gets people pissed off to try to prove you wrong. We are looking for good examples. Does that sound like we are trying to avoid issues. Besides, how do you know it created multiple organelles. Again you are begging the question by already assuming it happened the way you imagined. It is a theory, it is speculation, it is not a fact. My guess is that the game over macro evolution will come down to analyzing current genomes and may take about 50-75 years. It will have nothing to do with uni celled organisms 2.5 billion years ago. I haven't been dishonest. You might look in the mirror because I have been very open about this since you first brought it up and have answered you more than once. But you keep on popping up in a new hole. Here is the very first thing I said to you "I am not sure I accept endosymbiotic theory or that eukaryotic cells evolved when one prokaryote absorbed another. It is also something I do not disagree with since I know little about it. It does not, it if true. affect anything I understand about ID. If in fact eukaryotes originated this way this does not act as a general proof of macro evolution which is primarily a multi-celled hypothesis. Though the evolution of uni-celled organisms is always an interesting topic. We also tend to talk in absolutes here when often the debate should be couched in less absolute terms. The debate does not hinge on a single refutation of an IC system or even the possible development of a macro evolution system but it would have to be shown that this was a general trend in nature not just a fluke one time occurrence. If there were several of each available then this debate or this site would not exist as people like myself would support a naturalistic process for macro evolution." I was trying to be very honest with you and tried to start a conversation on this topic but it became clear after a couple posts that you were not interested in a conversation but were playing games and looking for a gotcha. Which is what you are doing on this post. I can go back and get every post if necessary. Will you bring it up again? Anyone want to bet?jerry
March 15, 2009
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StephenB @ 71, Excellent comment and observation, your warnings will be heeded. Your comments will be missed, they were always insightful. Please come back soon.Clive Hayden
March 15, 2009
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Arthur, "I scrolled back over as many comments as I could find, and I can’t find any insults to Denyse written by Bob." You just have to look harder.Clive Hayden
March 15, 2009
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jerry,
And so far no study has ever found evidence or data for the natural origin of novel complex capabilities.
at this point you refusal to acknowledge data approaches farce. an organelle enabling its bearer to perform aerobic respiration is a novel complex capability by anyone's standards. and it did not just happen as a simple transfer of information. mutations enabling the insertion and activation of genetic material from one organism to the other had to occur. so you can not simply say that endosymbiosis is just exchange of information; a lot of new information had to be generated in the process. and you can not say this is just one example; endosymbiois created multiple organelles and is observed occurring today in lab studies. so you can in no way use hyperbole like "..no study has ever.." without bordering on dishonesty.Khan
March 15, 2009
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"It follows that your assertion vis ID’s compatibility with virtually all research within evolutionary biology regardless of outcomes reflects its neutrino-like failure to interact with most of these important questions" I am not sure what you are trying to say but if you are trying to imply that I am saying ID is not falsifiable, then that is not correct. You seem to like the word neutrino to have used it twice in a way that I do not understand. A research study has many parts but the important parts are the findings. What I have said is that there has been nothing in the findings of any study in evolutionary biology that is at odds with ID. ID can look at these identical results and then may conclude something completely different from what the authors of the study concluded or they may conclude the same things. Neither the anti ID people or the pro ID people must not move beyond what the data says. And so far no study has ever found evidence or data for the natural origin of novel complex capabilities. To be fair about this, studies of genomes are only in their infancy but of those that have been analyzed so far, none have found results that are anathema to ID. Why do I know this. Because the findings of such a process would be Nobel Prize fame or world wide acclaim and yet there is radio silence. It may come but it hasn't yet. When it does there will be a loud roar. Just to reiterate, the debate is over the creation of information to control novel complex capabilities. So each study in evolutionary biology has to be looked at under this light as to whether it supports the ID position or not. And as far as I know every one has either supported the ID position or does not attempt to answer it.jerry
March 15, 2009
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Iconofid (#119): "Ray, am I right in guessing that you are an I.D. supporter who would openly say that the designer is the Christian God, and that I.D. is a form of creationism? If so, congratulations on your straightforward honesty (in advance!) Change "Christian God" to "Genesis Creator" and "Divine power" and change: "I.D. is a form of creationism" to Creationism and ID are synonyms, then your comments are correct. The ID argued here is "DI IDism" not historic IDism. I refuse to sacrifice the ancient Biblical concept of "Creatorism-Creationism" to the AiG Young Earth Fundamentalist. What does Ken Ham and Richard Dawkins have in common? Times up. Both accept the main earth shattering claim of Materialism: species mutability-microevolution. There are plenty of people in the world just like me. We reject both Ham and Dawkins, two Fundamentalists conducting the same business on opposite sides of the street. Ray Martinez, Protestant Evangelical, Old Earth-Young Biosphere Creationist-species immutabilist, Paleyan Designist, British Natural Theologian.R. Martinez
March 15, 2009
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"No. The onus is on you to clearly state what possible data would contradict your position, then to attempt to find it yourself. That is what scientists do. Note the word ‘possible’." That is what I just suggested is being done. There are thousands of studies each year in evolutionary biology that is attempting to falsify the ID hypothesis and so far each one of them has failed. If you know of one that hasn't, let me know and we will look at it.jerry
March 15, 2009
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Joseph
RESULT 1- The structure/ organism/ event in question is reducible to matter and energy- ie endo/ exothermic chemical reactions RESULT 2- It is NOT reducible For example take the ribosome- if it were reducible then once one was synthesized it would work. Scientists have synthesized ribosomes and they do not function. That would be a point for ID.
You misunderstand. You do not demonstrate a theory to be true by showing that something expected under an alternative theory failed to take place. All that demonstrates is that you might have made a mistake in the experimental procedure, or that a third theory is correct. Suppose that you have two competing theories and predict that, under wand theory a hat will turn into a bowl of fruit when a wand is waved in front of it. Spell theory, on the other hand, says that waving a wand will not turn a hat into a bowl of fruit. You wave your wand at the hat and nothing happens. Does this mean that spell theory is correct? No. It could be that wand theory is correct, but instead of waving the wand in circles you have to wave it in figures of eight. Alternatively, it could be that neither is correct and instead you have to perform a dance in front of the hat. A further point is that, if you are claiming this as a test of ID, then if scientists manage to make a working ribosome you must acknowledge that ID is wrong and abandon it. I do not think that this is what you intend.Richard Simons
March 15, 2009
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All Dawkins did was show that/ how cumulative selection can work in a TARGET-RICH environment. How does it work in an environment without a target? Isn't that a bit of an oxymoron? Cumulative is basically increasing by succesive addition And without a target how does one gauge increase or decrease? So what Dawkins has provided is yet another design mechanism- that of cumulative selection via a targeted search.Joseph
March 15, 2009
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That said to falsify ID in the domain of evolution all one has to do is demonstrate that the organism/ obeject/ event in question can be reduced to matter and energy.
This is basically the reason why ID is not considered to be science. ‘Falsifiable’ means that there is a prediction or test that can be made and performed that could give two results.
Right- RESULT 1- The structure/ organism/ event in question is reducible to matter and energy- ie endo/ exothermic chemical reactions RESULT 2- It is NOT reducible For example take the ribosome- if it were reducible then once one was synthesized it would work. Scientists have synthesized ribosomes and they do not function. That would be a point for ID. And this type of experiment can be conducted by anyone. Ya see it would also bolster YOUR position to conduct such tests and get things to reduce. As for a time-line try reading “Waiting for Two Mutations: With Applications to Regulatory Sequence Evolution and the Limits of Darwinian Evolution” (Durrett, R & Schmidt, D. 2008. Genetics 180: 1501-1509) And also read Dr Behe's response- the paper was supposed to address Behe's "Edge of Evolution": Waiting longer for two mutationsJoseph
March 15, 2009
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Ray: "Unintelligent or unguided material causation does not exist in reality. Design = Designer, not unguided material process. Ray" Ray, am I right in guessing that you are an I.D. supporter who would openly say that the designer is the Christian God, and that I.D. is a form of creationism? If so, congratulations on your straightforward honesty (in advance!)iconofid
March 15, 2009
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KariosFocus
I have shown from Dawkins' mouth in Blind Watchmaker and a New Scientist article, both as cited and easily accessible online, that Weasel is the precise kind of targetted search that i described in the original, quote-mined thread (cf 107 and 111 there, esp. as excerpted at 404 in the sceptics tread) is a strawman distractor from the challenge of getting to bio-function by a BLIND watchmaker highlighted by Hoyle, and that the observed 1986 printoffs beyond reasonable [but of course not beyond selective hypersketpicism adn its typical endless ill-founded objections] doubt exhibit latching of outputs, which still is best explained by explicit or implicit latching a la T2 or T3.
How many times will you wilfully misrepresent both my postion and Dawkins postion? 1: The issue has never been "targetted search". The issue has, and has always been if latching behaviour was present, i.e. if each letter was fixed in place once found. You have "shown" no such thing. On the thread in question you mention "dozens" of sample points printed in new scientist. In fact there were 6. 2: The issue is not a "strawman distractor challenge of getting to bio-function by a BLIND watchmaker". I have quite clearly, from the very start, indicated that the issue is simply "is Kariosfocus correct in his claim or not that letters are fixed in place once correct". That and that alone is the issue. I have said that the search is targetted (doh, it has a target phrase) but this is not the issue at hand. Onlookers, please don't take my word for it, simply read the thread in question and notice Kariosfocus masterly evasions and outright pretending that relevant objections were not even made. As Arthur Smith noted
Dawkins states his weasel program is “homing in on a distant target” and “in another way it is a bit of a cheat”. He indicates it is intended to demonstrate just “the power of cumulative selection”.
If you want (and you do) to discuss side issues, please do so, but don't claim that you have proven you point and disproven mine. It's all a distraction designed to move onlookers away from the realisation you are simply wrong in your original claim I have repeated this over and over and over and yet you continue to deliberatly create confusion by going on and on about issues that I have not raised while claiming unearnt victory on the single issue at hand.
and that the observed 1986 printoffs beyond reasonable [but of course not beyond selective hypersketpicism adn its typical endless ill-founded objections] doubt
Are these the printouts where you claim there are "dozens" of data points when in fact there are not? And are these the printouts that represent a tiny fraction of the overall population and as such there is no way the sort of conclusions you are drawing can reasonably be made?
The 1987 program that does NOT exhibit latching, is significantly different in its behaviour from the published record on the 1986 one. (this I discuss yet again in my latest correctives to JT and DK at 497 - 8.)]
It's a shame that you have no evidence for this position. You are reading things into 6 lines from a Weasel run printed in new scientist that are totally unwarrented. Anybody who choses to read the we-cannot-live-by-scepticism-alone thread will see for themselves how you have avoided addressing relevant points while all the time bringing up side issues that only you are raising, then claiming victory. Your credibility is shot, if you know it or not.
In either case, you have directly implied that I am a liar [at least as bad as GLF's insinuations above], which is a serious — and as I just demonstrated, slanderously false — accusation.
If you continue to repeat what you know to be false..... And is it not the case that you are calling Dawkins a liar and a cheat? That Dawkins implemented a secret "flick back module" between 1986 and 1987. How is it that you are the first person to notice this? How is it that you have waited since 1987 to let the world know the truth?
And, the latching I have described is very evident in the 1986 outputs (a sample of several dozen points that should be uncorrelated to the program’s algorithm is well within the law of large numbers) but conspicuously absent in the 1987 one. (In the latter, Dawkins has tuned up his flick-back module just a little too much.)
Show me these "several dozen data points" please. Then I may consider retracting my "slanderously false accusation".George L Farquhar
March 15, 2009
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Ray:
Then you quote Behe followed by commentary. Adel: I do not understand this aspect of your message. It *seems* to contradict your previous agreement with my comments. Again, I am sure that I have misunderstood. I hope you choose to re-explain your point.
No disagreement intended. Please clarify where you see such disagreement.Adel DiBagno
March 15, 2009
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CORRECTION: #115 should have said: Jerry (#112) and not Jerry (110). RayR. Martinez
March 15, 2009
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Adel Dibagno (#109): "Is ID completely lacking in errors?" Of course not. But the foundational claim of ID, that is, the appearance of design and organized complexity seen in every aspect of nature, having direct correspondence to the work of invisible Designer/Intelligent causation, is logically and scientifically inerrant. Jerry (#110): "....anti ID people who posit the impossibility of intelligence." Could we expect Atheists to say anything else? Unintelligent or unguided material causation does not exist in reality. Design = Designer, not unguided material process. RayR. Martinez
March 15, 2009
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Is there any research done by current evolutionary biology that is not in sync with ID. I know of none.
Many competing hypotheses within biology are incompatible with one another - out of sync - with some likely to be retained and others rejected in light of empirical findings. That's what makes this work science. It follows that your assertion vis ID's compatibility with virtually all research within evolutionary biology regardless of outcomes reflects its neutrino-like failure to interact with most of these important questions. You could reverse the sign of virtually every hypotheseis and every outcome within current research within biology and your statement vis ID would remain true. Nor do these outcomes appear to have any bearing upon ID "research" that is uniquely motivated by the ID hypothesis, such as it is ("such as it isn't" would be more appropriate). That should provide a disquieting hint regarding its lack of power as a scientific theory in the domain it claims to be revolutionary. In short, ID has little relevance to many phases of evolutionary science, and for that reason cannot meaningfully claim them as its own. The claim is rhetorical, only.Reciprocating_Bill
March 15, 2009
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Adel Dibagno (#103): "Well said." Thanks. "Although I think it is unfair to blame only Behe for that philosophical error.... Actually I agree; but Behe is the most prominent figurehead representing the error. And the context of my facts (#86, which contains the error of ascribing #58 to Dave Scot) were spoken to DaveScot (msg.#61, the correct msg. #) who had mentioned Behe as his source for the error-laden viewpoint. Then you quote Behe followed by commentary. Adel: I do not understand this aspect of your message. It *seems* to contradict your previous agreement with my comments. Again, I am sure that I have misunderstood. I hope you choose to re-explain your point. RayR. Martinez
March 15, 2009
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"Should ID be immune from criticism? Is ID completely lacking in errors?" No one ever said it wasn't so why this comment. It is not ID that is absolute about the role of intelligence but the anti ID people who posit the impossibility of intelligence.jerry
March 15, 2009
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In and ID friendly scenario there would not be a confrontational relationship between ID and current science. This paper is an example of the prescribed view point necessary for publishing today.
For science to be a constantly improving enterprise, it must be capable of surviving criticism and correcting errors. Should ID be immune from criticism? Is ID completely lacking in errors?Adel DiBagno
March 15, 2009
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"and fruitfully guides research in many such empirical domains" And ID endorses all these research projects because each one will support one or the other of the competing frameworks or supports both where they have no differences. Is there any research done by current evolutionary biology that is not in sync with ID. I know of none. Which is why the anti ID people here get so frustrated with us when we say that we accept their studies which they think undermine ID. So why is this research not subsumed into what ID would do if it had the purse strings to fund research in general. ID adds a layer on top of current evolutionary biology but in reality cannot get funding for much of this proposed layer. People think that this layer which is being frustrated as the only type of ID research like it is an either or scenario. But it is not and for awhile we will have to be mainly happy with the research done by others or under this paradigm. If the science establishment was friendly to the ID scenario, just what would be done differently in research. About 99% of research would be the same because holding an ID belief does not mean that this other research is not valid. ID stands for truth so this other research would be supported. But about 1% would be different and that is the layer which is now being frustrated. People are now investigating the probability of new proteins, or binding sites or whatever else it will take to produce complicated life forms so that would not be different. But what would be investigated are some areas that now are just not thought of because of their philosophy. Something else that would be different is the conclusions that would be permitted by researchers. Right now they are not permitted to make certain interpretations of the data. For an example look at Michael Behe's blog and his analysis of what two mathematicians did on his Edge of Evolution analysis. http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/A3DGRQ0IO7KYQ2/ref=cm_blog_blog In and ID friendly scenario there would not be a confrontational relationship between ID and current science. This paper is an example of the prescribed view point necessary for publishing today.jerry
March 15, 2009
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So when our anti ID friends come here, the onus is on them to present data that contradicts our position. Namely, that all macro evolution events and the underlying changes in the complex control systems can be explained by natural processes.
Onuses come in the plural. When a the prevailing theoretical/empirical framework of a science is challenged, it is not enough for the challenger to point to lacunae - even large lacunae - within an otherwise fertile and productive theoretical framework to reject that framework. An additional onus that falls to the challenger is to provide a competing framework that accounts for the facts and data subsumed by the prior framework, fills some of those lacunae, and generates unique, testable empirical hypotheses and predictions that have the potential guide further empirical work. To "subsume" facts in the way you describe is not enough. We all appear to agree that ID makes no claims with respect to many - perhaps most - of the large scale patterns we observe in the history of life on earth (common descent being one of them). Indeed, ID is somewhat of a neutrino with respect to these crucially important questions - it passes through without touching them. (Of course, many of us believe it was designed that way for rhetorical purposes, but that is another discussion.) Contemporary evolutionary theory, however incomplete WRT origins, has many such entailments and fruitfully guides research in many such empirical domains. Until ID enlarges its theoretical infrastructure sufficiently to provide a competing framework that addresses these facts, fill the above-noted lacunae, generate testable entailments that guide research and put its own assertions at risk, and actually conducts that research, its assertions remain largely philosophical and rhetorical rather than scientific. In that sense it fails to attain scientific status with the potential to genuinely challenge contemporary evolutionary science, whatever its limitations.Reciprocating_Bill
March 15, 2009
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Jerry
So when our anti ID friends come here, the onus is on them to present data that contradicts our position.
No. The onus is on you to clearly state what possible data would contradict your position, then to attempt to find it yourself. That is what scientists do. Note the word 'possible'.Richard Simons
March 15, 2009
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First of all, I am delighted to see the change in moderation policy. Joseph
That said to falsify ID in the domain of evolution all one has to do is demonstrate that the organism/ obeject/ event in question can be reduced to matter and energy.
This is basically the reason why ID is not considered to be science. 'Falsifiable' means that there is a prediction or test that can be made and performed that could give two results. From one you would conclude that the theory has been disproven, from the other one would conclude that the theory has not so far been disproven. A large part of science is thinking up the exceptional cases and then actually putting your theory to the test, in effect trying to disprove your own theory. I am not aware of anyone connected with ID who has actually done this, or even proposed a realistic test that would differentiate between ID and the modern evolutionary theory.
4.5 billion years does not seem to be enough.
I have recently been making a scale drawing of a geological timeline for my students and one thing that comes out clearly is just how long 4.5 billion years is. To represent the last 5000 years of human history by a postage-stamp sized photo I would need a strip of paper over 10 miles long. How long would you consider long enough, and what is your reasoning (no phoney statistics, please)?Richard Simons
March 15, 2009
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