Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A Word About Our Moderation Policy

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Some commenters have raised questions regarding the propriety of recent posts and UD’s moderation policy. UD’s moderation policy is fairly simple: As a general rule, so long as your comment is not defamatory profane, or a vicious personal attack, you can say pretty much what you want. We have no interest in censoring viewpoints, because we believe ID is true and consequently in any full and fair debate we will win — and if we don’t win we either need to learn to debate better or change our position. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not opening this site up to nasty juvenile name-calling fests like one see so often at Panda’s Thumb.  But if you keep your comments restricted to ideas and not attacking people, you should have no problems passing muster here.

What about the “God-bashing” and the defenses of God that have appeared in these pages? God can take care of Himself. We at UD feel no need to protect Him from defamation. Bash away. Those who are offended by (or disagree with) the bashing are welcome to post such defenses as they deem appropriate. There are limits, however. This site is not intended to be a forum for extensive religious debates. Religious issues inevitably come up from time to time and people should feel free to discuss them from both sides when they do. But the moderators will exercise their judgment and gavel discussions that stray too far a field from the purpose of this site for too long.

I personally find the God-bashing disturbing. So why do I allow it? As one of my colleagues has aptly said, the wiser course, when someone attacks God is to let those UD commenters who are theists respond to the charges. Our readers will then be in a position to see: (1) that UD, unlike the Darwinists, doesn’t ban or censor ideas; and (2) that theism in general and Christianity in particular is quite capable of defending itself against lies, distortions, illogical arguments, and misunderstandings. Our role is not to censor ideas but to provide a forum where hard questions can be discussed calmly, fully, and fairly, and we trust that when that happens truth will prevail.

Certainly there is risk to this approach. Some will reject truth and embrace error. But the consequences of pursuing the alternative course – ignoring or even running from the hard questions – would be far worse.

Finally, some have asked whether we should even discuss “peripheral issues” at UD, such as Darwin’s racism or the implications of ID for the theodicy. This site is devoted not only to scientific theories of origins, but also to the metaphysical and moral implications of those theories. Plainly BOTH Darwinism and ID have implications beyond the science. Certainly Darwinsts like “intellectually fulfilled” atheist Richard Dawkins understand the metaphysical implications of Darwinism and talk about those implications ad nauseum. What hypocritical balderdash for anyone to suggest a double standard prohibiting those of us with a different point of view from doing the exact same thing from our perspective – and we will continue to do so.

Comments
Moderators: "He is nothing but a dishonest butthead." I call foul on 'nothing but.'Adel DiBagno
March 18, 2009
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Kellogg doesn't speak for me. He is nothing but a dishonest butthead. His posts prove that.Joseph
March 18, 2009
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Richard [191], don't sweat feasibility. Joseph requies proof of evolution akin to the dream map of the cartographer: a 1:1 scale map of the world that is the size of the actual world. Only a comprehensive inventory of all biology, known and unknown, will satisfy.David Kellogg
March 17, 2009
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Joseph: "I am trying to get a clear statement from you as to what evidence would falsify ID." And I told you- just show that nature, operating freely can account for that in question.
And I said that any test had to be feasible. I take it that by 'that' you mean the creation of a functioning ribosome. It is not feasible to recreate the conditions on early Earth, in a lab the size of Earth, and sit around for a billion years to see if a ribosome will arise. On the other hand, if a functioning ribosome or similar is created in a lab, you will crow 'See, we told you intelligence is required.' There is no feasible evidence that you would consider to refute ID. Prove me wrong by describing what it would be.
Nopw if you want to falsify ID pertaining to biology just demonsttrate that living organisms can arise from non-living matter without agency involvement.
See above.
However we have direct observational evidence of designers designing editorial programs as well as designing translators- ie compilers. The ribosome is a genetic compiler.
Analogies can be taken too far.
Then through logic and deduction we infer the ribosome was designed- that and the fact it is irreducibly complex.
Oops! You've done it.
Predictions from ID include but are not limited to: Irreducible complexity and complex specified information.
Which definition of irreducible complexity are you using? The original 'a system stops working when a component is removed' (which was first called 'interlocking complexity' and was predicted to be a result of evolution by Muller). How about Behe's second definition 'a system ceases to perform its original function when a component is removed' or his third 'a system which could not have evolved'? I recall he has recently produced a fourth definition but I can't remember what it is. Do you understand what exactly is meant by 'complex specified information'? In information theory something that is easily specified is not complex, something that is complex is not easily specified. Besides, no-one has ever even attempted to determine which has the greater CSI, an African violet, the sum of the bacteria in the soil in the pot or the person holding them. Has it even been determined what the units should be?
What would we expect to see if living organisms owe their diversity to an accumulation of genetic accidents?
Many predictions have been made from the theory of evolution. Darwin, on seeing an orchid with a 30cm long corolla tube, predicted that in the same area there would be found a moth with a 30cm long proboscis, far longer than anything seen hitherto. It was found. It was an understanding of the TOE and the theory of plate tectonics that led to the discovery of Tiktaalik. I'm willing to make my own predictions: a pseudogene for vitamin C, having the same error in it as in our pseudogene, will be found in orangutans. Here's another: if any non-primate mammal (in addition to guinea-pigs, for which this is already known to be true) is found to be unable to produce vitamin C, it will not have the same pseudogene. The parasites found only in cats will be closer to those found in lions than to those found only in dogs. Now it's your turn to make similar, readily testable predictions using ID 'theory'.
Transciption and translation remain very good evidnce for ID in biology.
Either that, or they are evidence of your lack of information and imagination, resulting in your inability to think of an evolutionary explanation.
To refute that inference just demonstrate how such a thing can arise via an accumulation of genetic accidents.
Aaargh! That will NOT refute it. All it will do is show that an alternative is possible. For a theory to be tested, a prediction has to be made based on the theory, such that a specified result is not possible under the theory. There has to be a reasonable chance of finding the data if it exists. Nothing else will do.
BTW Richard, biologists are trying to falsify ID on just about a daily basis. Doolittle, Miller, Coyne- just to name a few- have tried to refute ID.
I could find several places in which these authors demonstrated that some of the assertions by ID proponents are false. I did not see anywhere in which they attempted to falsify ID as a whole. In fact, I do not believe it to be possible because, as I have written repeatedly, IDers have never presented us with any falsifiable prediction to test the concept. If you believe that any biologist has attempted to falsify ID, please could you give either a link to a research paper or a lengthy quote (my nearest library that would have such publications is an 8-hour drive away, and there is no public library closer than a 3-hour drive). I am not interested in quotes from newspapers, popular periodicals or books as people tend to express themselves simply or carelessly in these.
The debate is all about the “How”- so how a scientist gets a synthesized ribosome to function is very relevant.
I want to know what you mean by 'how'. Which techniques would be acceptable to you and which would not, and what are your reasons for accepting/not accepting each? I suspect that your real answer is that those that work will not be acceptable because human intelligence was involved.Richard Simons
March 17, 2009
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DLH, that is.Reciprocating_Bill
March 17, 2009
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DHL @ 188:
May I suggest some tactics from ClimateAudit...Editors aggressively “snip” material straying from the blog title.
I hope someone else here sees the irony of this. On a thread introducing a new moderation policy, a policy that states that other than making defamatory and profane statements and/or vicious personal attacks one can "say pretty much what you want," DHL is asking that more or less respectful posts be deleted because they are ostensibly off topic. It appears that at some meta-remove, the thread has become distinctly on-topic after all.Reciprocating_Bill
March 17, 2009
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Barry & Clive May I suggest some tactics from ClimateAudit See: Blog Rules and Road Map Editors aggressively "snip" material straying from the blog title. CA then added a Message Board with an Unthreaded section to detour commentators eager to sidetrack topics.DLH
March 17, 2009
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I explain what I would do if I were in charge of the funds and it is almost exactly what is being done now and khan accuses me of having no plan.
so I ask again, if you would do exactly what is being done now, how does ID contribute anything to science? if evolutionary biologists were not doing what they are doing, would you still have these ideas? or, to put it more bluntly, are you just a big copycat?Khan
March 17, 2009
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Upright, I would want to see some data on the nature or capabilities of the designer. we can't say that something was designed without knowing what might have designed it. anthropology, mt. rushmore, forensics, all rely on us knowing about and observing the "designer", namely us. without that knowledge, literally anything can be ascribed to it. that's about the only way i'd be convinced. and before you reply, there is plenty of good evidence of evolution's capabilities for design. the mitochondria and chloroplast evolved through natural processes and they are as good an example of complex traits as anyKhan
March 17, 2009
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khan as I said above is like the carnival game where you knock down the doll into a hole and up it pops in another hole. But khan's inanity has no end. It keeps popping up anew. I explain what I would do if I were in charge of the funds and it is almost exactly what is being done now and khan accuses me of having no plan. After making several expected findings from the current research program and its continuation he accuses me of having no predictions. I am sorry but I actually said what I expected to find and I make these predictions based on the evidence from the Edge of Evolution. I could be wrong but I said what the findings will probably support, namely that genomes examined will have devolved from an original gene pool and no new complex capabilities will have arisen, only a reshuffling of the original gene pool with some minor effects due to mutations. That is a major prediction. It is essentially saying that the edge of evolution is only so far up the ladder. But thanks for making an inane comment since it allowed me to explain it a little bit further. You may say why am I so confident about this prediction. The answer is human nature. If the anti ID contingent had any example that pointed to the origin of complex novel capabilities, we would hear no end to it. So I feel pretty safe in my prediction which khan does not seem to recognize as a prediction. But I will make another prediction that is pretty safe here. The endless non sequitur comments will not stop no matter how logical and how careful you are to explain them. They will go on and on. It becomes one way to judge someone. If they keep on coming back like khan with non sequiturs it means their only purpose is to frustrate and not to understand or learn. I also said if I was mistaken then one would have to move up the ladder further to see where the new complex capabilities came from. Did they develop naturally from processes that formed the order of family or did the originate within the gene pool. Did the two gradual processes which I outlined lead to the capability or did the recombination process over time lead to it. I said they would probably originate from within the gene pool and not develop naturally from scratch while forming the order or family. That is another prediction based on the contingency that there was some new complex novel capability. That means if these capabilities arose they were due to something further back in evolution. Some here believe in a front loading concept and that this is the source for the complex novel capabilities that have arisen over time. ID will be never be falsified but could become an irrelevant idea in science if only there were research that showed how the FSCI arose or expanded. But the scientifically relevant idea for ID is that nature does not have the resources to produce the FSCI we see in life. So khan, thanks again for misreading what I said.jerry
March 17, 2009
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The link seems to be broken, but here is the relavent text: Timaeus: As for your last question, exactly the same question can be addressed to Darwinists. What experiment could unambiguously eliminate the Darwinian hypothesis (macroevolution caused by mutations plus natural selection etc.)? If one hypothetical evolutionary pathway from land mammals to whales is falsified, the Darwinists just come up with another one. And they hang on to that one until fossil evidence or genetic evidence or radioactive dating evidence or whatnot makes that one impossible. Then they come up with another one. A while ago it was a hippo-like animal that was the supposed ancestor of the whale; now it’s a wolf-like one. Five years from now it may be a rodent-like one. Never do Darwinists entertain for a moment the possibility that whales *could not* have evolved by entirely naturalistic means from land mammals. For to entertain that possibility would mean to entertain the possibility that whales may have been specially engineered, and that conclusion, even if it is derived entirely from biological data and not at all from any religious teaching, the Darwinists will simply not allow. Or am I wrong? Can you give me an example of a “killer observation” or “killer experiment” that would falsify Darwinism completely? And please don’t use “the Cambrian rabbit ploy”. That tired old Cambrian rabbit, whose ears are getting sore from being pulled out of the hat so many times by Darwinists, would indeed falsify common descent. But many ID proponents accept common descent, e.g., Behe, Denton, and they do not expect to find a Cambrian rabbit. Common descent is not the point in debate between ID proper and Darwinism. The issue is, within the working assumption of common descent, what would falsify the Darwinian hypothesis once and for all? What would force a Darwinian to admit that evolution could not have been entirely unguided? I have asked this question over and over again, and never have I spoken to or read a Darwinist who has an answer for it. And being somewhat of a Popperian in philosophy of science (unfashionable, I know, but I was never much for fashion), I would argue that any hypothesis for which this question cannot be answered is not really a scientific hypothesis, but a vague, airy speculation. So, is Darwinian evolution a falsifiable hypothesis, or not? If so, how could it be falsified? If not, why should it be regarded as science?Upright BiPed
March 17, 2009
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This conversation is somewhat reminiscent of a recent exchange between Timaues and Allen MacNeil, where Timaeus asks Allen how the Darwinian paradigm copuld be placed "at risk". https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/dont-use-the-d-word-its-being-eliminated/#comment-305327 Allen punted - never to return to the conversation, despite repeated request. So be it.Upright BiPed
March 17, 2009
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On the other hand, removing agency from known causes for no other than ideological reasons, then claiming that agency is therefore not an answer IS assuming your conclusions.
Surely YOU are not removing agency from the candidate clauses. So, state your theory regarding the role of agency in the origins of complex organisms. Describe specific testable entailments that arise from your theory, such that empirical test of those entailments have the potential to disconfirm your hypothesis.Reciprocating_Bill
March 17, 2009
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Reciprocating_Bill:
That also doesn’t follow, because there is no logical reason to conclude from the observation of the origins of complexity by natural means that other systems haven’t arisen by means of intelligent design.
It's even worse than that. Even if we show that nature can produce a given complex organism, Dembski's framework says that nature itself is only a conduit for design. Here's Dembski:
Given, for the sake of argument, that Darwinism is the means by which biological complexity emerged, why is nature such that the fitness landscapes operating in biology are smooth and allow the Darwinian mechanism to be successful? This question, under the supposition of Darwinism's truth, requires an answer, and it is not enough to say that nature has given us a free lunch. ... Why is ours a world where the Darwinian mechanism works (if indeed it works)? In NFL I contend that design looms here as well.
If valid, Dembski's NFL and search-for-a-search arguments render the design hypothesis empirically unfalsifiable. We can never rule out design -- we can only push it up a level.R0b
March 17, 2009
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Actually, I dispute this passage, as it assumes its conclusions. The dominant scientific paradigm asserts something else: we observe throughout the natural world organisms consisting of components integrated into functioning wholes that arose by natural means.
Its hard to imagine a rational person making this claim (while maintaining a straight face). The idea that volitional agency can coordinate seperate organizations into a functioning whole (by means of information) is hardly awaiting conclusive evidence - its all around us. On the other hand, removing agency from known causes for no other than ideological reasons, then claiming that agency is therefore not an answer IS assuming your conclusions. All that's left is to prove chance and necessity can do what only agency is observed to accomplish - or, is your conclusion not "at risk".Upright BiPed
March 17, 2009
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Biped @ 180
ID is characterized by a fact that is undisputed. Volitional agency can coordinate separate organizations into a functioning whole, driven by information and meta-information. From an empirical and observational standpoint, it is the only causal mechanism known to have this capacity. It is not an issue to show this is the case, the only issue is can chance and necessity mock this capability.
Actually, I dispute this passage, as it assumes its conclusions. The dominant scientific paradigm asserts something else: we observe throughout the natural world organisms consisting of components integrated into functioning wholes that arose by natural means. Neither assertion, standing alone, has much value as such. What resolves such disputes are tests of entailments arising from those assertions, such that they are placed at risk of disconfirmation. So it is entirely the issue to show that this is the case.
Let’s try again Bill, do you agree with the following text:
Scientists believe that they are accountable to a system of norms in which the pursuit of truth and objectivity are the sole considerations accepted by their profession. Whatever other interests they may have in the subject matter of their research are believed to be eclipsed by, and subservient to, the singular objective of their inquiry, namely, the unfettered search for certifiable knowledge.
You should credit your sources (Krimsky), and restore "typically" to its position following "Scientists" and before "believe." This passage refers to general values. The "fetters" that constrain science to the standard I have articulated are limitations imposed by epistemology and method, not values. Hence the limitation I describe: theoretical formulations become scientifically useful when they specify entailments that are empirically testable, and that place the theoretical utterance at risk of disconfirmation. Indeed, this is paramount among the "system of norms" by means of which "truth" is pursued scientifically. Hence the pursuit of truth by means of this method (there are many others that don't happen to be science, as I earlier mentioned), even when conducted in the spirit of the passage quoted above, is still constrained by this limitation. Which leaves us with the question, what entailments arise uniquely from ID? What empirical tests arise from these entailments, such that they place ID at risk of confirmation?Reciprocating_Bill
March 17, 2009
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Billy continues to argue a point not even in debate, and he does it poorly. ID is characterized by a fact that is undisputed. Volitional agency can coordinate separate organizations into a functioning whole, driven by information and meta-information. From an empirical and observational standpoint, it is the only causal mechanism known to have this capacity. It is not an issue to show this is the case, the only issue is can chance and necessity mock this capability. ID can be immediately falsified by providing data that shows that it can. This is the reality that Billy wishes would just go away. By means of wishing it would just go away, he seeks to demand proofs from ID proponents that are unavailable from materialists for their ideological stance on chance and necessity. Chance and necessity remain without empirical support for the belief that they have the ability to coordinate separate organizations into a functioning whole, driven by information and meta-information...while volitional agency remains the only cause known to man that has such a capacity. The only card he has to play is the rigors of science card - where he'll tell the world what is and is not science (as if the very word should be heeded without question). By Bill's way of rational discourse (which he has argued for in his answers) as long as we are removing "hallucinogens and consultations with elders" from the list of sources for scientific inspiration, we might as well go ahead and remove agency from the list of causes known to mankind. It makes perfect sense. Bill wants science to operate with an unexamined faith in itself. This is so for no other reason than to have that unexamined faith act as a protective shield for his cherished worldview. - - - - - - - Let's try again Bill, do you agree with the following text:
Scientists believe that they are accountable to a system of norms in which the pursuit of truth and objectivity are the sole considerations accepted by their profession. Whatever other interests they may have in the subject matter of their research are believed to be eclipsed by, and subservient to, the singular objective of their inquiry, namely, the unfettered search for certifiable knowledge.
If so, and you also agree that the profession should remain accountable to a "system of norms in which the pursuit of truth and objectivity are the sole considerations" acceptable, and further, you also agree that whatever your interests may be, they should to be "eclipsed by, and subservient to, the singular objective of the inquiry, namely, the unfettered search for certifiable knowledge" then...please provide a rational explanation of why an unfettered search for truth about the natural world can arbitrarily silence one of the three causes known to man, and then still act as if its an unfettered search for truth.Upright BiPed
March 17, 2009
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Joseph's very brief answer, and Jerry's very long answer, above, essentially assert the same thing: ID can be falsified through a demonstration of complexity in biology arising through natural means. Therefore, ID predicts that no evidence of such natural origins will be observed. However, this doesn't work. Let us imagine a stance of omniscience from which we observe that both ID and evolutionary theory as it currently stands are wrong. What researchers (who don't know this) will observe, with respect to the above formulation, is that evolutionary theory produces no successful accounts of the origins of complex biological structures. It would be mistaken, however, to therefore conclude that ID is correct. There is nothing in the finding "evolutionary theory as currently formulated fails" that enables us to distinguish between "ID also fails" and "ID succeeds." Therefore your proposed falsifications of ID fails, and we are left with a third position: "We don't know. We don't have a good theory for the emergence of complexity in nature." What we would know, however, is that the failure of the entailments of theory B does not equal evidence in support of theory A, as above. What does actively test a given theory is the generation of positive entailments that follow from that theory, and empirical tests of those entailments. Were we to find ourselves in the position of "We don't know," this is the only means by which we may climb out of that state. Neither of your examples deliver that. One last note. You've asserted, essentially, "ID can be falsified through a demonstration of complexity in biology arising through natural means." That also doesn't follow, because there is no logical reason to conclude from the observation of the origins of complexity by natural means that other systems haven't arisen by means of intelligent design.Reciprocating_Bill
March 17, 2009
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jerry, I want to thank you for that post, which confirms a number of things about ID. 1) you have no research program, other than post-hoc reinterpretation of other's findings. 2) you provide no valuable predictions to evolutionary biology. sorry, but "you won't find a naturalistic explanation" doesn't count. try making a single positive prediction and testing it against a null hypothesis. if, as in your bovid example, your predictions are exactly the same as evol bio, how does that make a case for ID helping science at all? 3)no evidence will ever convince you that ID is invalid. if one thing is shown to be explained by naturalistic causes (like the evolution of new organelles), you move the goalposts further back and so on and so on. so I will pull a jerry and say thank you for making the case so clearly that ID has nothing to offer.Khan
March 17, 2009
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Jerry above:
No, the expression is “If I ran the zoo” and is the name of a Dr. Seuss book.
He wrote both: If I Ran the Zoo in 1950, If I Ran the Circus in 1956.Reciprocating_Bill
March 17, 2009
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Reciprocating_Bill:
If you disagree, and are truly unfettered, then describe a theoretical entailment of ID theory that generates testable empirical predictions, such that those predictions place ID theory, or a major tenet of ID theory, at risk of disconfirmation.
You have some serious problems. I have already told you what would falsify ID. I have even told you how to go about testing it.Joseph
March 17, 2009
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"RAPID ALLOPATRIC SPECIATION IN LOGPERCH DARTERS (PERCIDAE: PERCINA) Near, Thomas J.1; Benard, Michael F.2 Evolution, Volume 58, issue 12 (December 1, 2004), p. 2798-2808" Seems like micro evolution which ID completely accepts. It does not seem to be an issue unless the new species developed complex novel capabilities.jerry
March 17, 2009
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What does your example have to do with an accumulation of genetic accidents?
Contemporary evolutionary models argue that accumulated genetic variation (arising from a variety of unguided means) and selection acting upon that variation play roles both in current models of Allopatric and Sympatric speciation.
Right. But that does NOT answer my question.
These models (which are complex, and have numerous other components, such as the varying roles of geographic separation, rapid evolution in small founder populations, etc.) have numerous specific entailments that give rise to specific empirical predictions.
But not one prediction based on an accumulation of genetic accidents. Hint- the "accumulation" part is the selection category.
I present this example not as dispositive proof of evolutionary theory (it addresses a much more narrow question), but as an example of theory giving rise to prediction, and the testing of that prediction.
It looks like you presented the example because you don't know what is being debated and could not even follow my lead.Joseph
March 17, 2009
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"BTW, the Dr. Suess title you’re reaching for is If I Ran the Circus" No, the expression is "If I ran the zoo" and is the name of a Dr. Seuss book. It is what people around me have used since I was a kid. It refers to a mishmash of craziness that one would find if all the animals of the zoo were placed in one place and the animals were making the decisions. I am surprised you haven't heard the expression. I hear it frequently and probably pre dates the Dr. Seuss book but I am not certain. Anyway, I started writing something last night and it was taking too long. But you miss the basic point here is that the evolutionary synthesis makes few predictions in the area of macro evolution and what has been made has been falsified. They shy away from predictions and beg the question of naturalistic evolution by saying such and such a function was selected for or emerged or was co-opted or to use the modern term it was exapted or it just apted. The term apted is meant to mean either adapted or exapted. So I would look at the current paradigm and ask why is it accepted if it is such a failure. You know and I know why but to pretend it is wearing clothes is a joke. What ID says is that when the genomes are mapped there will be no evidence of the development of novel complex capabilities through naturalistic means. Mainly, because the time and reproductive events necessary are not enough to assemble the necessary parts and coordinate their use. So ID predicts that through the mapping of genomes and their analysis of how they control life's functions there will be no evidence of a systematic rise of complex control mechanisms through naturalistic methods. These complex control mechanisms have to be built says the current synthesis so the genomes will have evidence of their construction or they will not. Life and the cells in particular have many of these exquisite control mechanisms and require the coordination of several inter-related subsystems and parts. ID predicts the rise of these inter-related subsystems and parts will not be due to any gradual process and as I said above because there is not enough time and resources. I said gradual processes because that is the current paradigm for nearly all of evolutionary biology but does not have to be limited to these types of processes. There are mainly two types of gradual processes assumed by current evolutionary biology. One is the paradigm assumed by Darwin where by an organism slowly changes its genome over time and each small change is selected for or not and as large amounts of time passes a new species has arisen and new control mechanisms. The second gradualistic paradigm is one where part of the genome is duplicated either through what is called a gene duplication event or through a reverse transcription event of a transcribed rna sequence that has no function. These unused parts of the genome then lay fallow and mutate till some day a very small percentage of them become useful and then build something new in the genome. Both processes should be discernible in the genomes of a family or species. So if I were to run the zoo, I would allocate most of the money to the same projects that are going on right now but allow ID thinking to be accepted as part of the process along with naturalistic thinking. I believe there would be a more fertile analysis with multiple inputs. ID is interested in the truth and would be just as interested in how and to what extent naturalistic processes can change and build a genome. So all these naturalistic propositions would be under investigation to see if there was any evidence that a new coordinated system had arisen in the past and were currently being built. One way to do this would be map all the genomes of a family of organisms and this is what I proposed in the example I sent you to. The best way to do this would be to push for extensive analysis of human genomes and great apes first to see how these genomes work. It would be easier to get money here with the justification that it would be for medical use. Once there was an understanding of how genomes work (we only have a beginning understanding) then a another complete family would be next to see what are the differences between them and how did the differences arise. At each point along the way the proposition that no complex novel capabilities could arise via naturalistic mechanisms would be evaluated. If at each point there is no confirmation that naturalistic mechanisms were capable of it then one has to assume that the original gene pool for the family or order contained the capabilities and then the issue would be 1) how did this happen and 2) why did it not happen at the lower taxon. This all assumes that the evidence will not be found but if plenty of evidence is found for how these systems arose through naturalistic processes then the ID controversy will abate and moved backwards to the origin of the cell and the origin of multi-cellular organisms. For example, evo devo postulates that the genome has the capabilities within it to produce complicated new systems within the organism and these building blocks just have to be deployed somehow. If this is true, then the debate moves back to how these building blocks arose. We are a long way from answering the basic issues and will remain that way for a long while timewise. Then there is the separate and additional research into the nature of proteins and how many functional proteins exist in protein space. The ID hypothesis is that functional protein families or islands are rare and far apart in protein space so that normal mutation events would not be able to reach one from the other. This is a completely different approach to mapping genomes and one that may show the impossibility of any series of mutations that would be necessary for the construction of new proteins. Obviously some could be created or found with a series of mutations but could all or even most or even a few. That is another area of research that would impinge not only on evolution but on Origin of Life. So exact propositions may be far in the future but then again the current paradigm has no propositions that have proven out. The very fact that they do not is telling and is one of the strengths of ID. As I said as long as NP does not have any support it means that not NP becomes more of a possibility.jerry
March 17, 2009
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Bipedal @ 168:
Again, Bill, please provide a rational explanation of how an unfettered search for truth can arbitrarily silence one of the three causes known to man, and still assume itself to be an unfettered search for truth.
I have not claimed that science is an unfettered search for truth. It is a quite constrained search for truth. It is constrained in that theoretical utterances that fail to generate empirical entailments (as opposed to ad hoc assertions) are not amenable to investigation by means of the of the primary tools of science. I don't recall ID specifying such testable entailments. If you disagree, and are truly unfettered, then describe a theoretical entailment of ID theory that generates testable empirical predictions, such that those predictions place ID theory, or a major tenet of ID theory, at risk of disconfirmation.Reciprocating_Bill
March 17, 2009
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What does your example have to do with an accumulation of genetic accidents?
Contemporary evolutionary models argue that accumulated genetic variation (arising from a variety of unguided means) and selection acting upon that variation play roles both in current models of Allopatric and Sympatric speciation. These models (which are complex, and have numerous other components, such as the varying roles of geographic separation, rapid evolution in small founder populations, etc.) have numerous specific entailments that give rise to specific empirical predictions. I present this example not as dispositive proof of evolutionary theory (it addresses a much more narrow question), but as an example of theory giving rise to prediction, and the testing of that prediction.Reciprocating_Bill
March 17, 2009
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Bill, What does your example have to do with an accumulation of genetic accidents? Clades can diversify via any number of mechanisms. I am only concerned with the mechanism "accumulated genetic accidents".Joseph
March 17, 2009
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Joseph @ 164:
What are the predictions borne from an accumulation of genetic accidents? Please be specific or admit that the theory of evolution doesn’t predict anything.
How about the the following example. You'll note that the prediction was, in part, disconfirmed (which is why I selected this example). That's progress. RAPID ALLOPATRIC SPECIATION IN LOGPERCH DARTERS (PERCIDAE: PERCINA) Near, Thomas J.1; Benard, Michael F.2 Evolution, Volume 58, issue 12 (December 1, 2004), p. 2798-2808 Theory predicts that clades diversifying via sympatric speciation will exhibit high diversification rates. However, the expected rate of diversification in clades characterized by allopatric speciation is less clear. Previous studies have documented significantly higher speciation rates in freshwater fish clades diversifying via sympatric versus allopatric modes, leading to suggestions that the geographic pattern of speciation can be inferred solely from knowledge of the diversification rate. We tested this prediction using an example from darters, a clade of approximately 200 species of freshwater fishes endemic to eastern North America. A resolved phylogeny was generated using mitochondrial DNA gene sequences for logperches, a monophyletic group of darters composed of 10 recognized species. Divergence times among logperch species were estimated using a fossil calibrated molecular clock in centrarchid fishes, and diversification rates in logperches were estimated using several methods. Speciation events in logperches are recent, extending from 4.20 ± 1.06 million years ago (mya) to 0.42 ± 0.22 mya, with most speciation events occurring in the Pleistocene. Diversification rates are high in logperches, at some nodes exceeding rates reported for well-studied adaptive radiations such as Hawaiian silverswords. The geographic pattern of speciation in logperches was investigated by examining the relationship between degree of sympatry and the absolute age of the contrast, with the result that diversification in logperches appears allopatric. The very high diversification rate observed in the logperch phylogeny is more similar to freshwater fish clades thought to represent examples of sympatric speciation than to clades representing allopatric speciation. These results demonstrate that the geographic mode of speciation for a clade cannot be inferred from the diversification rate. The empirical observation of high diversification rates in logperches demonstrates that allopatric speciation can occur rapidly.Reciprocating_Bill
March 17, 2009
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As in previous comments, Bill is unable to see the empirical forest for the ideological trees. Faced with absolutrely nothing to refute the empirical inference to design, he must once again overlook the fact that he can provide nothing to substatiate the claim that chance and neccesity can, in fact, organize chemical elements into coordinated organizations driven by information and meta-information. Not only is he more than eager to ignore the removal of agency from the unfettered search for truth, he has to resort to absudities about hallucinogens in order to provide the amount of grease necessary to do so. He assumes his conclusions without notice, and then demands proofs that he himself cannot provide. In short, he is only parading as an enlightened man. Judging by his responses, his ideology is far more important to him than the empirical evidence. Again, Bill, please provide a rational explanation of how an unfettered search for truth can arbitrarily silence one of the three causes known to man, and still assume itself to be an unfettered search for truth. Your response will need to be devoid of either ideology or metaphysical implications, and should represent post-modern intelligence. It should also not assign to science any parameter that is not immediately responsive to the idea that science is an unfettered search for the truth.Upright BiPed
March 17, 2009
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Khan, Are you relying on a definition of macro-evolution that no one disputes? You know the definition that Allen MacNeill says is used by evolutionary biologists which even YECs accept? What is the point of using something taht no one disputes to try to settle a dispute? Are you really that clue-less too?Joseph
March 17, 2009
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