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A world-famous chemist tells the truth: there’s no scientist alive today who understands macroevolution

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Professor James M. Tour is one of the ten most cited chemists in the world. He is famous for his work on nanocars (pictured above, courtesy of Wikipedia), nanoelectronics, graphene nanostructures, carbon nanovectors in medicine, and green carbon research for enhanced oil recovery and environmentally friendly oil and gas extraction. He is currently a Professor of Chemistry, Professor of Computer Science, and Professor of Mechanical Engineering and Materials Science at Rice University. He has authored or co-authored 489 scientific publications and his name is on 36 patents. Although he does not regard himself as an Intelligent Design theorist, Professor Tour, along with over 700 other scientists, took the courageous step back in 2001 of signing the Discovery Institute’s “A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism”, which read: “We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged.”

On Professor Tour’s Website, there’s a very revealing article on evolution and creation, in which Tour bluntly states that he does not understand how macroevolution could have happened, from a chemical standpoint (all bold emphases below are mine – VJT):

Although most scientists leave few stones unturned in their quest to discern mechanisms before wholeheartedly accepting them, when it comes to the often gross extrapolations between observations and conclusions on macroevolution, scientists, it seems to me, permit unhealthy leeway. When hearing such extrapolations in the academy, when will we cry out, “The emperor has no clothes!”?

…I simply do not understand, chemically, how macroevolution could have happened. Hence, am I not free to join the ranks of the skeptical and to sign such a statement without reprisals from those that disagree with me? … Does anyone understand the chemical details behind macroevolution? If so, I would like to sit with that person and be taught, so I invite them to meet with me.

In a more recent talk, entitled, Nanotech and Jesus Christ, given on 1 November 2012 at Georgia Tech, Professor Tour went further, and declared that no scientist that he has spoken to understands macroevolution – and that includes Nobel Prize winners! Here’s what he said when a student in the audience asked him about evolution:

I will tell you as a scientist and a synthetic chemist: if anybody should be able to understand evolution, it is me, because I make molecules for a living, and I don’t just buy a kit, and mix this and mix this, and get that. I mean, ab initio, I make molecules. I understand how hard it is to make molecules. I understand that if I take Nature’s tool kit, it could be much easier, because all the tools are already there, and I just mix it in the proportions, and I do it under these conditions, but ab initio is very, very hard.

I don’t understand evolution, and I will confess that to you. Is that OK, for me to say, “I don’t understand this”? Is that all right? I know that there’s a lot of people out there that don’t understand anything about organic synthesis, but they understand evolution. I understand a lot about making molecules; I don’t understand evolution. And you would just say that, wow, I must be really unusual.

Let me tell you what goes on in the back rooms of science – with National Academy members, with Nobel Prize winners. I have sat with them, and when I get them alone, not in public – because it’s a scary thing, if you say what I just said – I say, “Do you understand all of this, where all of this came from, and how this happens?” Every time that I have sat with people who are synthetic chemists, who understand this, they go “Uh-uh. Nope.” These people are just so far off, on how to believe this stuff came together. I’ve sat with National Academy members, with Nobel Prize winners. Sometimes I will say, “Do you understand this?”And if they’re afraid to say “Yes,” they say nothing. They just stare at me, because they can’t sincerely do it.

I was once brought in by the Dean of the Department, many years ago, and he was a chemist. He was kind of concerned about some things. I said, “Let me ask you something. You’re a chemist. Do you understand this? How do you get DNA without a cell membrane? And how do you get a cell membrane without a DNA? And how does all this come together from this piece of jelly?” We have no idea, we have no idea. I said, “Isn’t it interesting that you, the Dean of science, and I, the chemistry professor, can talk about this quietly in your office, but we can’t go out there and talk about this?”

If you understand evolution, I am fine with that. I’m not going to try to change you – not at all. In fact, I wish I had the understanding that you have.

But about seven or eight years ago I posted on my Web site that I don’t understand. And I said, “I will buy lunch for anyone that will sit with me and explain to me evolution, and I won’t argue with you until I don’t understand something – I will ask you to clarify. But you can’t wave by and say, “This enzyme does that.” You’ve got to get down in the details of where molecules are built, for me. Nobody has come forward.

The Atheist Society contacted me. They said that they will buy the lunch, and they challenged the Atheist Society, “Go down to Houston and have lunch with this guy, and talk to him.” Nobody has come! Now remember, because I’m just going to ask, when I stop understanding what you’re talking about, I will ask. So I sincerely want to know. I would like to believe it. But I just can’t.

Now, I understand microevolution, I really do. We do this all the time in the lab. I understand this. But when you have speciation changes, when you have organs changing, when you have to have concerted lines of evolution, all happening in the same place and time – not just one line – concerted lines, all at the same place, all in the same environment … this is very hard to fathom.

I was in Israel not too long ago, talking with a bio-engineer, and [he was] describing to me the ear, and he was studying the different changes in the modulus of the ear, and I said, “How does this come about?” And he says, “Oh, Jim, you know, we all believe in evolution, but we have no idea how it happened.” Now there’s a good Jewish professor for you. I mean, that’s what it is. So that’s where I am. Have I answered the question? (52:00 to 56:44)

Professor Tour’s online talk is absolutely fascinating as well as being deeply moving on a personal level, and I would strongly urge readers to listen to his talk in its entirety – including the questions after the talk. You won’t regret it, I promise you. One interesting little gem of information which I’ll reveal is that it was Professor Tour who was largely instrumental in getting Nobel Laureate Richard Smalley, winner of the 1996 Nobel Prize in Chemistry, to reject Darwinian evolution and accept Old Earth creationism, shortly before he died in 2005. It was Tour who persuaded Smalley to delve into the question of origins. After reading the books “Origins of Life” and “Who Was Adam?”, written by Dr. Hugh Ross (an astrophysicist) and Dr. Fazale Rana (a biochemist).. Dr. Smalley explained his change of heart as follows:

Evolution has just been dealt its death blow. After reading “Origins of Life”, with my background in chemistry and physics, it is clear evolution could not have occurred. The new book, “Who Was Adam?”, is the silver bullet that puts the evolutionary model to death.

Strong words indeed, for a Nobel scientist. Readers can find out more about Professor Richard Smalley’s change of views here.

Why should we believe macroevolution, if nobody understands it?

Now that Professor Tour has informed the world that even Nobel Prize-winning scientists privately admit that they don’t understand macroevolution, a layperson is surely entitled to ask: “Well, if even they don’t understand it, then why should we believe it? How can we possibly be obliged to believe in a theory which nobody understands?”

That’s a good question. And it’s no use for Darwinists to trot out the standard “party line” that “even if we don’t yet understand how it happened, we still have enough evidence to infer that it happened.” At the very most, all that the current scientific evidence could establish is the common descent of living organisms. But that’s not macroevolution. Macroevolution requires more than a common ancestry for living organisms: it requires a natural mechanism which can generate the diversity of life-forms we see on Earth today from a common stock, without the need for any direction by an Intelligent Agent. But the mechanism is precisely what we don’t have evidence for. So the question remains: why should we believe in macroevolution?

The decline of academic freedom

Given the massive uncertainty about the “how” of macroevolution among scientists working in the field, you might think that a wide variety of views would be tolerated in the scientific arena – including the view that there is no such process as macroevolution. However, you would be sadly mistaken. As Professor Tour notes in his online article on evolution and creation, an alarming academic trend has emerged in recent years: a growing intolerance of dissent from Darwinism. This trend is so pronounced that Professor Tour now advises his students not to voice their doubts about Darwinism in public, if they want a successful career:

In the last few years I have seen a saddening progression at several institutions. I have witnessed unfair treatment upon scientists that do not accept macroevolutionary arguments and for their having signed the above-referenced statement regarding the examination of Darwinism. (I will comment no further regarding the specifics of the actions taken upon the skeptics; I love and honor my colleagues too much for that.) I never thought that science would have evolved like this. I deeply value the academy; teaching, professing and research in the university are my privileges and joys…

But my recent advice to my graduate students has been direct and revealing: If you disagree with Darwinian Theory, keep it to yourselves if you value your careers, unless, of course, you’re one of those champions for proclamation; I know that that fire exists in some, so be ready for lead-ridden limbs. But if the scientific community has taken these shots at senior faculty, it will not be comfortable for the young non-conformist. When the power-holders permit no contrary discussion, can a vibrant academy be maintained? Is there a University (unity in diversity)? For the United States, I pray that the scientific community and the National Academy in particular will investigate the disenfranchisement that is manifest upon some of their own, and thereby address the inequity.

It remains to be seen if other countries will allow their young scientists to think freely about the origin of life, and of the various species of organisms that we find on Earth today. What I will say, though, is that countries which restrict academic freedom will eventually be overtaken by countries which allow it to prosper. There is still time for America and Europe to throw off the dead hand of Darwinism in academic circles, and let their young people breathe the unaccustomed air of free speech once again.

(UPDATE: Here’s a link to my follow-up post, Macroevolution, microevolution and chemistry: the devil is in the details. It amply refutes the simplistic charge, made by some skeptics, that Professor Tour was conflating macroevolution with the question of the origin of life.)

UD Editors:  This post has received a great deal of attention lately, so we are moving it back to the front page.

Comments
We have read it Nick it was weighed, and it was found wanting....Andre
February 19, 2013
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As an electrical engineering undergrad studying solid state electronics, I was required to take an intro course in quantum mechanics. There I was, a 20 year old without a degree, and at the end I understood much of the mathematical basis of the field. And this guy Matzke comes on here and has the gumption to belittle someone with multiple Ph.D’s and a career building organic molecules (i.e. as in biochemistry) as not smart enough to understand what is SO IMPORTANT that it MUST be taught in high schools. Well then, if the Ph.D can’t get it, then why are we teaching it in the public schools? (well it must be indoctrination since it CAN’T be understanding as we now know!)
It's not that he doesn't have the mental capability to "get it". The question is, has he put in the effort? Has the guy ever even cracked open a good college-level textbook on evolution? Has he ever sat in on a course on it? He says things that you could only say if you were almost completely uninformed about the topic.
I mean if Tour is possessed of no hope in this, just because Matzke declares such, does not everyone see the absurdity of what these shysters are trying to do? I think Nick experienced a case of boiling blood and purple face when reading this UD post, just what the doctor (Tour) ordered. Thank Goodness. And I make the offer: I will buy a ticket for Nick to Houston and will buy a night at a hotel on a weekend. I live in Houston and would like to attend the meeting, and assume Nick will record the meeting.
Fine with me.NickMatzke_UD
February 19, 2013
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That is only a case of “I wouldn’t have seen it if I didn’t already believe it.” IOW the fossils don’t help you Nick. Not only tat but the fossil record shows fish-> tetrapods-> fishapods. Not exactly what your position requires.
This statement depends on identifying one particularly early fossil trackway as tetrapods. This is disputed amongst the experts. But even if true, it would just push back the origin of tetrapod characters a few million years. So what? The fossil record is a very imperfect statistical sampling process and so having groups "missing" for a few million years is actually the most probable situation under any reasonable model. E.g., we think lemurs have been on Madagascar for tens of millions of years, but there are no lemur fossils at all until 12,000 years ago. Should we thus infer that lemurs popped into existence 12,000 years ago? With any noisy sampling process, the importance of the noise will reduce as you zoom out and look at more data. When we do this, we see strong statistically significant correlation between the fossil record and phylogenies built from non-fossil data. As you guys would know if anyone had actually bothered to read and engage with the 29 Evidences FAQ: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#chronologyNickMatzke_UD
February 19, 2013
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I would infer from that that additional processes are involved in macro-evolution that don’t occur in micro-evolution. I’d be interested if you could find time to clarify this, Nick.
I already mentioned several in this thread. Do you want me to re-write previous posts? If you read back, and are able to say what they are, then congratulations, you would be understanding more about macroevolution than anyone else responding to me in this thread.NickMatzke_UD
February 19, 2013
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See, my recollection was that you defended the claim as a serious one worthy of attention, and that wasn’t at all discredited by the mere fact that actual ‘eminent historians’ across the board thought it was nonsense.
Your recollection is wrong. Go back and read that discussion, you won't be able to produce a quote backing up what you say above. You are apparently blinded by what you wish were true about your opponents, or something.NickMatzke_UD
February 19, 2013
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I make the offer contingent on my requested attendance. I will remain silent throughout, but would have some questions upon concluding the meeting.groovamos
February 19, 2013
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"And I make the offer: I will buy a ticket for Nick to Houston and will buy a night at a hotel on a weekend. I live in Houston and would like to attend the meeting, and assume Nick will record the meeting." Wow, this could get very interesting! ,,, If the lunch ever does come together I hope, for the sake of all us who would love to see it, that it is recorded.,,, What do you think Nick? Here's your chance to put all doubts about neo-Darwinism to rest,, all the growing doubts concerning the efficacy of unguided material (Darwinian) processes to produce the unfathomed complexity now being revealed in life! :)bornagain77
February 19, 2013
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Nick M says " A guy whose field is not biology, and who shows absolutely no evidence of having seriously engaged with actual evolutionary biologists or their literature, and who appears to not have the first clue about how biologists would define macroevolution...." As an electrical engineering undergrad studying solid state electronics, I was required to take an intro course in quantum mechanics. There I was, a 20 year old without a degree, and at the end I understood much of the mathematical basis of the field. And this guy Matzke comes on here and has the gumption to belittle someone with multiple Ph.D's and a career building organic molecules (i.e. as in biochemistry) as not smart enough to understand what is SO IMPORTANT that it MUST be taught in high schools. Well then, if the Ph.D can't get it, then why are we teaching it in the public schools? (well it must be indoctrination since it CAN'T be understanding as we now know!) I mean if Tour is possessed of no hope in this, just because Matzke declares such, does not everyone see the absurdity of what these shysters are trying to do? I think Nick experienced a case of boiling blood and purple face when reading this UD post, just what the doctor (Tour) ordered. Thank Goodness. And I make the offer: I will buy a ticket for Nick to Houston and will buy a night at a hotel on a weekend. I live in Houston and would like to attend the meeting, and assume Nick will record the meeting.groovamos
February 19, 2013
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Moreover Mr. Matzke, can you, while you are addressing Mr. Fox's concerns, also address the question of how neo-Darwinism is coping with the overturning of Junk DNA?
Junk No More: ENCODE Project Nature Paper Finds "Biochemical Functions for 80% of the Genome" - Casey Luskin September 5, 2012 Excerpt: "And what's in the remaining 20 percent? Possibly not junk either, according to Ewan Birney, the project's Lead Analysis Coordinator and self-described "cat-herder-in-chief". He explains that ENCODE only (!) looked at 147 types of cells, and the human body has a few thousand. A given part of the genome might control a gene in one cell type, but not others. If every cell is included, functions may emerge for the phantom proportion. "It's likely that 80 percent will go to 100 percent," says Birney. "We don't really have any large chunks of redundant DNA. This metaphor of junk isn't that useful."" http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/09/junk_no_more_en_1064001.html
You see Mr. Matzke, Junk DNA wasn't just something that Darwinists tacked onto evolutionary theory because it fit in with their theological narrative of how God should or shouldn't act within nature, Junk DNA was/is mathematically required by neo-Darwinism,,, Haldane's Dilemma Excerpt: Haldane was the first to recognize there was a cost to selection which limited what it realistically could be expected to do. He did not fully realize that his thinking would create major problems for evolutionary theory. He calculated that in man it would take 6 million years to fix just 1,000 mutations (assuming 20 years per generation).,,, Man and chimp differ by at least 150 million nucleotides representing at least 40 million hypothetical mutations (Britten, 2002). So if man evolved from a chimp-like creature, then during that process there were at least 20 million mutations fixed within the human lineage (40 million divided by 2), yet natural selection could only have selected for 1,000 of those. All the rest would have had to been fixed by random drift - creating millions of nearly-neutral deleterious mutations. This would not just have made us inferior to our chimp-like ancestors - it surely would have killed us. Since Haldane's dilemma there have been a number of efforts to sweep the problem under the rug, but the problem is still exactly the same. ReMine (1993, 2005) has extensively reviewed the problem, and has analyzed it using an entirely different mathematical formulation - but has obtained identical results. John Sanford PhD. - "Genetic Entropy and The Mystery of the Genome" - pg. 159-160 Kimura's Quandary Excerpt: Kimura realized that Haldane was correct,,, He developed his neutral theory in responce to this overwhelming evolutionary problem. Paradoxically, his theory led him to believe that most mutations are unselectable, and therefore,,, most 'evolution' must be independent of selection! Because he was totally committed to the primary axiom (neo-Darwinism), Kimura apparently never considered his cost arguments could most rationally be used to argue against the Axiom's (neo-Darwinism's) very validity. John Sanford PhD. - "Genetic Entropy and The Mystery of the Genome" - pg. 161 - 162 A graph featuring 'Kimura's Distribution' is shown in the following video: Evolution Vs Genetic Entropy - Andy McIntosh - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4028086 Carter: Why Evolutionists Need Junk DNA - December 2009 Excerpt: Junk DNA is not just a label that was tacked on to some DNA that seemed to have no function, but it is something that is required by evolutionary theory. Mathematically, there is too much variation, too much DNA to mutate, and too few generations in which to get it all done. This was the essence of Haldane's work. Without junk DNA, evolutionary theory cannot currently explain how everything works mathematically. Think about it; in the evolutionary model there have only been 3-6 million years since humans and chimps diverged. With average human generation times of 20-30 years, this gives them only 100,000 to 300,000 generations to fix the millions of mutations that separate humans and chimps. This includes at least 35 million single letter differences, over 90 million base pairs of non-shared DNA, nearly 700 extra genes in humans (about 6% not shared with chimpanzees), and tens of thousands of chromosomal rearrangements. Also, the chimp genome is about 13% larger than that of humans, but mostly due to the heterochromatin that caps the chromosome telomeres. All this has to happen in a very short amount of evolutionary time. They don't have enough time, even after discounting the functionality of over 95% of the genome--but their position becomes grave if junk DNA turns out to be functional. Every new function found for junk DNA makes the evolutionists' case that much more difficult. Robert W. Carter - biologist http://indicium.us/2009/12/carter-why-evolutionists-need-junk-dna.html On Enzymes and Teleology - Ann Gauger - July 19, 2012 Excerpt: People have been saying for years, "Of course evolution isn't random, it's directed by natural selection. It's not chance, it's chance and necessity." But in recent years the rhetoric has changed. Now evolution is constrained. Not all options are open, and natural selection is not the major player, it's the happenstance of genetic drift that drives change. But somehow it all happens anyway, and evolution gets the credit. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/07/on_enzymes_and062391.html Majestic Ascent: Berlinski on Darwin on Trial - David Berlinski - November 2011 Excerpt: The publication in 1983 of Motoo Kimura's The Neutral Theory of Molecular Evolution consolidated ideas that Kimura had introduced in the late 1960s. On the molecular level, evolution is entirely stochastic, and if it proceeds at all, it proceeds by drift along a leaves-and-current model. Kimura's theories left the emergence of complex biological structures an enigma, but they played an important role in the local economy of belief. They allowed biologists to affirm that they welcomed responsible criticism. "A critique of neo-Darwinism," the Dutch biologist Gert Korthof boasted, "can be incorporated into neo-Darwinism if there is evidence and a good theory, which contributes to the progress of science." By this standard, if the Archangel Gabriel were to accept personal responsibility for the Cambrian explosion, his views would be widely described as neo-Darwinian. Ann Gauger on genetic drift - August 2012 Excerpt: The idea that evolution is driven by drift has led to a way of retrospectively estimating past genetic lineages. Called coalescent theory, it is based on one very simple assumption — that the vast majority of mutations are neutral and have no effect on an organism’s survival. (For a review go here.) According to this theory, actual genetic history is presumed not to matter. Our genomes are full of randomly accumulating neutral changes. When generating a genealogy for those changes, their order of appearance doesn’t matter. Trees can be drawn and mutations assigned to them without regard to an evolutionary sequence of genotypes, since genotypes don’t matter. https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/ann-gauger-on-genetic-drift/ Here is a Completely Different Way of Doing Science - Cornelius Hunter PhD. - April 2012 Excerpt: But how then could evolution proceed if mutations were just neutral? The idea was that neutral mutations would accrue until finally an earthquake, comet, volcano or some such would cause a major environmental shift which suddenly could make use of all those neutral mutations. Suddenly, those old mutations went from goat-to-hero, providing just the designs that were needed to cope with the new environmental challenge. It was another example of the incredible serendipity that evolutionists call upon. Too good to be true? Not for evolutionists. The neutral theory became quite popular in the literature. The idea that mutations were not brimming with cool innovations but were mostly bad or at best neutral, for some, went from an anathema to orthodoxy. And the idea that those neutral mutations would later magically provide the needed innovations became another evolutionary just-so story, told with conviction as though it was a scientific finding. Another problem with the theory of neutral molecular evolution is that it made even more obvious the awkward question of where these genes came from in the first place. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/04/here-is-completely-different-way-of.html Thou Shalt Not Put Evolutionary Theory to a Test - Douglas Axe - July 18, 2012 Excerpt: "For example, McBride criticizes me for not mentioning genetic drift in my discussion of human origins, apparently without realizing that the result of Durrett and Schmidt rules drift out. Each and every specific genetic change needed to produce humans from apes would have to have conferred a significant selective advantage in order for humans to have appeared in the available time (i.e. the mutations cannot be 'neutral'). Any aspect of the transition that requires two or more mutations to act in combination in order to increase fitness would take way too long (>100 million years). My challenge to McBride, and everyone else who believes the evolutionary story of human origins, is not to provide the list of mutations that did the trick, but rather a list of mutations that can do it. Otherwise they're in the position of insisting that something is a scientific fact without having the faintest idea how it even could be." Doug Axe PhD. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/07/thou_shalt_not062351.html At the 2:45 minute mark of the following video the mathematical roots of the junk DNA argument, that is still used by Darwinists, is traced through Haldane, Kimura, and Ohno's work, in the 1950's, 60's and 70's, in population genetics: What Is The Genome? It's Not Junk! - Dr. Robert Carter - video - (Notes in video description) http://www.metacafe.com/w/8905583 A bit more detail on the history of the junk DNA argument, and how it was born out of the mathematics of evolutionary thought, is here: Functionless Junk DNA Predictions By Leading Evolutionists http://docs.google.com/View?id=dc8z67wz_24c5f7czgmbornagain77
February 19, 2013
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NickMatzke_UD:
The line “Contrary to claims by creationists, macro and microevolution describe fundamentally identical processes on different time scales” looks like it was stuck in by someone who was a popular fan of evolution but not very deep into the field.
I would infer from that that additional processes are involved in macro-evolution that don't occur in micro-evolution. I'd be interested if you could find time to clarify this, Nick.Alan Fox
February 19, 2013
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Moreover, in further critique of Mr. Matzke's position, the sequential information encoded on the DNA is found to be the 'bottom rung of the ladder' as far as the information hierarchy of the cell is concerned:
Multidimensional Genome – Dr. Robert Carter – video (Notes in video description) http://www.metacafe.com/w/8905048 Why the 'Gene' Concept Holds Back Evolutionary Thinking - James Shapiro - 11/30/2012 Excerpt: The Century of the Gene. In a 1948 Scientific American article, soon-to-be Nobel Laureate George Beadle wrote: "genes are the basic units of all living things.",,, This notion of the genome as a collection of discrete gene units prevailed when the neo-Darwinian "Modern Synthesis" emerged in the pre-DNA 1940s. Some prominent theorists even proposed that evolution could be defined simply as a change over time in the frequencies of different gene forms in a population.,,, The basic issue is that molecular genetics has made it impossible to provide a consistent, or even useful, definition of the term "gene." In March 2009, I attended a workshop at the Santa Fe Institute entitled "Complexity of the Gene Concept." Although we had a lot of smart people around the table, we failed as a group to agree on a clear meaning for the term. The modern concept of the genome has no basic units. It has literally become "systems all the way down." There are piecemeal coding sequences, expression signals, splicing signals, regulatory signals, epigenetic formatting signals, and many other "DNA elements" (to use the neutral ENCODE terminology) that participate in the multiple functions involved in genome expression, replication, transmission, repair and 'evolution'.,,, Conventional thinkers may claim that molecular data only add details to a well-established evolutionary paradigm. But the diehard defenders of orthodoxy in evolutionary biology are grievously mistaken in their stubbornness. DNA and molecular genetics have brought us to a fundamentally new conceptual understanding of genomes, how they are organized and how they function. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-a-shapiro/why-the-gene-concept-hold_b_2207245.html
If all that was not bad enough for what Mr. Matzke considers to be a theory that is established on par with Gravity as a fact, recently, though it was thought to be impossible, quantum entanglement/information has now been found on a massive scale within molecular biology:
Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA - Elisabeth Rieper - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/ DNA Can Discern Between Two Quantum States, Research Shows - June 2011 Excerpt: -- DNA -- can discern between quantum states known as spin. - The researchers fabricated self-assembling, single layers of DNA attached to a gold substrate. They then exposed the DNA to mixed groups of electrons with both directions of spin. Indeed, the team's results surpassed expectations: The biological molecules reacted strongly with the electrons carrying one of those spins, and hardly at all with the others. The longer the molecule, the more efficient it was at choosing electrons with the desired spin, while single strands and damaged bits of DNA did not exhibit this property. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110331104014.htm Coherent Intrachain energy migration at room temperature - Elisabetta Collini and Gregory Scholes - University of Toronto - Science, 323, (2009), pp. 369-73 Excerpt: The authors conducted an experiment to observe quantum coherence dynamics in relation to energy transfer. The experiment, conducted at room temperature, examined chain conformations, such as those found in the proteins of living cells. Neighbouring molecules along the backbone of a protein chain were seen to have coherent energy transfer. Where this happens quantum decoherence (the underlying tendency to loss of coherence due to interaction with the environment) is able to be resisted, and the evolution of the system remains entangled as a single quantum state. http://www.scimednet.org/quantum-coherence-living-cells-and-protein/
The reason that this is extremely problematic for neo-Darwinism is because Quantum entanglement/information has a long history of simply refusing to be reduced to any conceivable scenario that can be envisioned for the reductive materialism of neo-Darwinism. For example this:
Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory – (Oct. 28, 2012) Excerpt: “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121028142217.htm
bornagain77
February 19, 2013
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Nick Matzke:
We have (1) observed rates of change in some populations right now,
Yes, we have. However what we observe in no way supports universal common descent.
and (2) rates of change in fossil record.
That is only a case of "I wouldn't have seen it if I didn't already believe it." IOW the fossils don't help you Nick. Not only tat but the fossil record shows fish-> tetrapods-> fishapods. Not exactly what your position requires.Joe
February 19, 2013
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F/N: The 29 evidences game is based on loaded assumptions and assertions, and I suggest beginning instead by challenging the claim that life's origin can be grounded on blind watchmaker forces of chance and necessity. (Cf. point 6 on here.) KFkairosfocus
February 19, 2013
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In critique of Mr. Matzke's position (and a critique of neo-Darwinists generally), it is interesting to note that he/they are operating from the presupposition of reductive materialism. In that he/they believe functional information, life and consciousness (Everything basically!), simply 'emerges' in a bottom up fashion from the various 'random' configurations of material particles. Particularly, they hold that 'random' mutations to DNA (Central Dogma) can account for all the diversity of life we see around us (Body Plan Morphogenesis). There are severe problems with this view. Recently, Paul Nelson presented an excellent lecture explaining the crushing problem that ontogenetic depth places on the reductive materialism of neo-Darwinism:
Darwin or Design? - Paul Nelson at Saddleback Church - Nov. 2012 - ontogenetic depth (excellent update) - video Text from one of the Saddleback slides: 1. Animal body plans are built in each generation by a stepwise process, from the fertilized egg to the many cells of the adult. The earliest stages in this process determine what follows. 2. Thus, to change -- that is, to evolve -- any body plan, mutations expressed early in development must occur, be viable, and be stably transmitted to offspring. 3. But such early-acting mutations of global effect are those least likely to be tolerated by the embryo. Losses of structures are the only exception to this otherwise universal generalization about animal development and evolution. Many species will tolerate phenotypic losses if their local (environmental) circumstances are favorable. Hence island or cave fauna often lose (for instance) wings or eyes. http://www.saddleback.com/mc/m/7ece8/ Understanding Ontogenetic Depth, Part II: Natural Selection Is a Harsh Mistress - Paul Nelson - April 7, 2011 Excerpt: The problem may be summarized as follows: -- There are striking differences in the early (embryonic) development in animals, even within classes and orders. -- Assuming that these animals are descended from a common ancestor, these divergences suggest that early development evolves relatively easily. -- Evolution by natural selection requires heritable variation. -- But heritable variations in early development, in major features such as cleavage patterns, are not observed. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/04/understanding_ontogenetic_dept_1045581.html
related notes:
'No matter what we do to a fruit fly embryo there are only three possible outcomes, a normal fruit fly, a defective fruit fly, or a dead fruit fly. What we never see is primary speciation much less macro-evolution' – Jonathan Wells Darwin's Theory - Fruit Flies and Morphology - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZJTIwRY0bs Experimental Evolution in Fruit Flies (35 years of trying to force fruit flies to evolve in the laboratory fails, spectacularly) - October 2010 Excerpt: "Despite decades of sustained selection in relatively small, sexually reproducing laboratory populations, selection did not lead to the fixation of newly arising unconditionally advantageous alleles.,,, "This research really upends the dominant paradigm about how species evolve," said ecology and evolutionary biology professor Anthony Long, the primary investigator. http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/literature/2010/10/07/experimental_evolution_in_fruit_flies The mouse is not enough - February 2011 Excerpt: Richard Behringer, who studies mammalian embryogenesis at the MD Anderson Cancer Center in Texas said, “There is no ‘correct’ system. Each species is unique and uses its own tailored mechanisms to achieve development. By only studying one species (eg, the mouse), naive scientists believe that it represents all mammals.” http://www.the-scientist.com/news/display/57986/ Transcription Factors: More Species-Specific Biology - Cornelius Hunter - October 2011 Excerpt: In fact, the binding sites are often so-called “lineage-specific,” meaning that the transcription factor binds to a section of DNA that is unique to that species. As one writer explained: "Remarkably, many of these RABS [repeat-associated binding sites] were found in lineage-specific repeat elements that are absent in the comparison species, suggesting that large numbers of binding sites arose more recently in evolution and may have rewired the regulatory architecture in embryonic stem cells on a substantial scale." http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2011/10/transcription-factors-more-species.html
Despite what Mr. Matzke may adamantly claim to the contrary (belittling anyone who disagrees with him in the process), he simply has ZERO scientific evidence that 'random' mutations to the DNA can produce fundamentally new Body Plans.,,,bornagain77
February 19, 2013
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Nick Matzke:
Everyone should start here: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/ Refute it if you can. Until you do, you’ve got nada.
First someone has to support that bit of tripe. IOW there isn't anything to refute as all Theobald has is "it look like common descent to me". Not only that I can, and have, taken Theobald's claims and made them into support for a common design. Rather easily, too.
Heck, even Young-Earth Creationists accept quite a bit of the macroevolution in terms of the topics I listed above.
They define macroevolution differently thnan you do, Nick.Joe
February 19, 2013
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That's a fantastic article, VJ Torley, thank-you very much. How many atheistic evolutionists will curse honest and established scientists like Tour and Smalley for undermining their claim that all true scientists believe in evolution? Any evolutionist whose main defence of evolution is "if so many scientists believe it is true, then it must be true" cannot really be taken seriously. And, if they make matters worse by trying to smear any scientist who doesn't toe the line (as illustrated, once again, by Nick Matzke) then it becomes perfectly clear that little things like evidence and reason are of no real interest to such evolutionists. It is either atheistic evolution or bust: to hell with the truth! I look forward to more scientists like Tour and Smalley, coming clean, publicly, and confirming that the criticisms of ID proponents were right all along.Chris Doyle
February 19, 2013
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It is worth noting that Nick, when he was pressed to give an example of a single gene arising by Darwinian processes, gave an example that fell completely apart upon examination:
Leading Darwin Defender Admits Darwinism's Most "Detailed Explanation" of a Gene Doesn't Even Tell What Function's Being Selected - Casey Luskin - October 5, 2011 Excerpt: ...You just admitted that the most "detailed explanation" for the evolution of a gene represents a case where: *they don't even know the precise function of the gene, *and thus don't know what exactly what function was being selected, *and thus don't know if there are steps that require multiple mutations to produce an advantage, *and thus haven't even begun to show that the gene can evolve in a step-by-step fashion, *and thus don't know that there are sufficient probabilistic resources to produce the gene by gene duplication+mutation+selection. In effect, you have just admitted that Darwinian explanations for the origin of genes are incredibly detail-poor. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/10/leading_darwin_defender_admits051551.html
bornagain77
February 19, 2013
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NickMatzke_UD (28): In other words, observed evolutionary rates have **plenty** of capability to explain the changes seen in the fossil record. The puzzle, if anything, is why the observed change in the fossil — even the things you cite — is so incredibly SLOW.
This puzzle is solved when one accepts the fact that there is a huge difference between microevolution and macroevolution – which Theobald and you obviously do not. The so called ‘evolutionary rate’ in Trinidadian guppies, Ugandan elephants and Croatian lizards do not mean the origination of new species. But rather, minor changes of a more decorative kind that become fixed. To suggest otherwise is misleading and almost certainly meaningless in the context of the evolution debate.Box
February 19, 2013
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Nick You must be joking right science should never concern itself with articles on how to debate creationists or Duane Gish, that's not science! I'll repeat Class what is science? Science is the method we use to see and understand what causes what! That is it, science does not have an opinion on debating! Back to school for you, because what you suffer from is called the evolutionary lack of critical thinking syndrome. I think its a random mutation that went wrong or something!Andre
February 19, 2013
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Its fine and welcome to accept this guy upon his stuff. However I wouldn't credit him for YEC stuff. I'm saying watch the physics of who creationists quote for some aspect of our side. O)Kay about a top chemist, patents and all unlike Stephen Hawkings, to say how things did come about but creationists need not just do this. If evolution did not create the glory before us then there couldn't be evidence that it did. Therefore there couldn't be the higher standard of evidence gathering called science demonstrating evidence for evolution. if not then all creationists need insist is that there is no scientific biological evidence for evolution. So its up to them to show their top four poinbts. Creationism should be aiming at the methodology behind evolution evidence claims and not first at the claims of evidence. It was after all not true scientific biological evidence that was presented. so evolution is not yet a scientific theory but only a open hypothesis. By the way just because a Israeli (Jewish or not) says evidence is lacking for evolution is not king of all. Third world states shouldn't be quoted so much.Robert Byers
February 19, 2013
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PS Strange how it's so hard for mere Nobel chemists, population geneticists, etc to understand, when it's so simple that only the willfully obscurantist hick Fundamentalists don't get it.Jon Garvey
February 19, 2013
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The line “Contrary to claims by creationists, macro and microevolution describe fundamentally identical processes on different time scales” looks like it was stuck in by someone who was a popular fan of evolution but not very deep into the field.
It could well have been a guy who posts on BioLogos by the name of melanogaster, formerly John, who is very rude but never gets banned because he is acknowledged to be a working expert in population genetics. On a current post, he called the terms "microevolution" and "macroevolution" a "Creationist trope". He often tells people that they don't understand evolution. Sounds like Nick should have lunch with him to justify his Creationist tropes. Regarding the OP, my experience is that the claim that nobody understands macroevolution is untrue. There is in fact just one person who does understand it, but sadly nobody knows who it is because everyone is telling everyone else that they don't understand evolution (eg Coyne to J Shapiro, Nick to Tour, Dennis Venema to Meyer, "John" to Behe and, of course, indirectly, Nick to "John".)Jon Garvey
February 19, 2013
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@NickMatzke_UD Do you remember where you were the day junk DNA died? . . . . ...sorry, couldn't resist. :PJGuy
February 18, 2013
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As you know, or you would if you cared about accuracy and fairness, I never defended Carrier’s “Jesus never existed”
Oh really? So you're going to turn around and denounce the Jesus-myth claim as nonsense? See, my recollection was that you defended the claim as a serious one worthy of attention, and that wasn't at all discredited by the mere fact that actual 'eminent historians' across the board thought it was nonsense.
I even explicitly disclaimed any ability to judge detailed disputes in ancient history issues.
Right, sure. I mean, just like how you're neutral on the Phantom time hypothesis or Timecube, right? You're not a historian or a physicist, so how in the world can you judge such things? By the way, I like this turnaround:
As I recall, you guys were the ones doubting the existence of an article he published,
"We guys" did no such thing. One person said that they couldn't find the article, and when it was produced, they admitted their error. By the way, Nick: indisputably, the Jesus Myth hypothesis is not taken seriously by actual eminent historians. Are you saying that just because an idea is rejected by the consensus of academics, that's not at all a good reason to regard it as a silly or likely wrong claim? ID proponents would love to know the answer there.
Pick a friggin’ side of each issue and stick with it. This is science, not lit-crit. You can’t maintain two opposite positions at once and expect to be taken seriously.
Gosh, Nick. It's almost as if the DI view is neutral with regards to common descent - it's entirely compatible with its truth or falsity, and thus you have ID proponents expressing differing views. Would it be intellectually honest to treat the EO Wilson v Dawkins dispute as evidence evolutionary theory was like 'lit-crit'? Like I said, Nick - please stop what you're doing. When you BS about the state of the science, engage in blatant strawman tactics and otherwise bluff, you make scientists and science both look bad. You make it harder to argue the case for common descent and related issues by doing this sort of thing.nullasalus
February 18, 2013
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40 AndreFebruary 18, 2013 at 11:18 pm Nick How can you expect us to take Talk Origins serious as a credible evolutionary resource that is purely scientific and has no biased agenda if it has articles like the following? http://www.talkorigins.org/faq.....nists.html Science should concern itself with cause and effect stuff only because that is what science is, to see what causes what….
Science education and public understanding of science are useful things to promote. It is also useful to debate young-earth creationist charlatans and pseudoscientists like Duane Gish (in days of yore). What's wrong with articles about these aspects of the issue?NickMatzke_UD
February 18, 2013
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38 JammerFebruary 18, 2013 at 11:08 pm A post detailing the crucial distinction between the question of did it happen, and the question of how did it happen (it referring to macroevolution/common descent): Confusing Evidence for Common Ancestry with Evidence for Random Mutation and Natural Selection From my own experience, conflating the above two questions, and the evidence in support of each, is one of the Darwinists most often-used tactics when it comes to tricking the public. It’s good to see that Nick Matzke is keeping that sleazy tradition alive. Way to go, Nick! Anyway, here’s a few more relevant articles from EN&V: Douglas Theobald Tests Universal Common Ancestry by Refuting a Preposterous Null Hypothesis But Isn’t There a Consilience of Data That Corroborates Common Descent? (a follow-up to the preceding entry) Also, EN&V recently deconstructed Talk Origins’ entry on speciation, which crosses over into the question of large-scale macro-evolutionary change. The first of the six-part series can be found here, and the full article (in PDF format) can be downloaded here. It’s well worth a read. Once you see just how weak Talk Origins’ actual case is, you’ll understand why they resort to dishonesty and intentional confusion.
The kind if schizophrenia we see here is exactly why ID and whatever other sorts of vaguely antievolutionary mewing we are seeing in this thread will never get taken seriously by anyone who knows anything about the field. On the one hand, we have articles from the Discovery Institute website that take pains to claim (contrary to most of the evidence) that ID is just find with common ancestry, and that the powerful evidence from common ancestry should be carefully distinguished from those oh-so-much-more dubious claims about mutations and natural selection being the mechanism of change. On the other hand, we have articles from the very same Discovery Institute website that make extraordinary efforts to disprove common ancestry, and even to attempt to disprove even basically tiny changes that happen when one species splits into to two -- speciation, i.e. the kinds of changes that even the most extreme Bible-beating, evolution-is-from-Satan, just-fell-off-the-turnip-truck (I take this phrase from Stephen Meyer) young-earth creationists happily accept. Pick a friggin' side of each issue and stick with it. This is science, not lit-crit. You can't maintain two opposite positions at once and expect to be taken seriously.NickMatzke_UD
February 18, 2013
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Then it could only be you Nick everything you write references creationists in some form or another. Yep it was you.Andre
February 18, 2013
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"The fact that this comes from someone who praises and boosts Richard Carrier and his “Jesus never existed!” speculations against eminent historians is priceless. Apparently, it’s entirely okay to be a maverick outside of the academy – but only if your views support Matzke’s social and political agendas." ...aaaand the misconstruals continue. As you know, or you would if you cared about accuracy and fairness, I never defended Carrier's "Jesus never existed" position, I just pointed out the weaknesses in the critique that you, Mike Gene, etc. were making of him as some kind of total hopeless buffoon. I even explicitly disclaimed any ability to judge detailed disputes in ancient history issues. All I pointed out was that Carrier is acknowledged to be smart even by e.g. Bart Ehrman, and that he does a lot of reasonably good research. As I recall, you guys were the ones doubting the existence of an article he published, just because you were so incredibly suspicious of anything he did, and because you were relying on lazy and sloppy and insufficient research, and I was the one who physically went to the library and copied the article, which turned out to exist, and emailed it to anyone who asked.NickMatzke_UD
February 18, 2013
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"Considering that fully 50% of their external links are to Theobold’s article or to what he links to in his article (talkorigins) they must be complete morons." Wikipedia articles can have a great many writers. The line "Contrary to claims by creationists, macro and microevolution describe fundamentally identical processes on different time scales" looks like it was stuck in by someone who was a popular fan of evolution but not very deep into the field.NickMatzke_UD
February 18, 2013
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This is a very long read but by far the best explanation yet on how speciation occurs, deletions my friend deletions. No new novel functions. http://m.gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/3/812.fullAndre
February 18, 2013
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