Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Abiogenensis Research Is ID Research

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

An ID hypothesis is that abiogenesis is practically impossible without intelligent agency. A predictionmade by this hypothesis is that no method of abiogenesis absent intelligent intervention can ever be demonstrated in a laboratory. The prediction may be falsified in principle by demonstrating a chemical pathway whereby abiogenesis takes place. This is a legitimate hypothesis that makes a testable prediction. Therefore all attempts to demonstrate that abiogenesis is possible absent intelligent intervention is an attempt to falsify biological ID. So I don’t want to hear the tired canard again that ID has no research programs. We have many of them and they’ve been going on for God only knows how long. At least since Aristotle in 350 B.C. said it was a readily observable truth that aphids arise from the dew which falls on plants, fleas from putrid matter, mice from dirty hay, and so forth. Through Louis Pasteur’s experiments showing sterile mediums remain sterile forever in 1862. To the Miller-Urey experiment “demonstrating” how electrical discharges, water, and a few noxious gasses could produce a dilute concentration of a few amino acids. Biological ID research has thus demonstrably been proceeding for thousands of years and continues through today most recently with Harvard University throwing its hat in the ring setting out to prove abiogenesis is possible and plausible committing $1 million per year to the effort. But don’t you dare say that 2000+ years of failure is anything more than an argument from ignorance you ignorant IDers! 😛

Comments
Wow, that's really desperate! Evolutionary research, of course, is carried out by people who use evolutionary theory to make predictions and guide their research. But since there is essentially no significant ID research carried out on that basis, you are anxious to claim research being carried out by people who quite obviously have no interest or belief in a role for ID in the origin of life or existing species. For example, don't think that it is pretty ridiculous to acclaim attempts to develop engineered organisms as ID research? After all, there is no scientific doubt that "intelligent agents are capable of crafting a living cell from inanimate chemical precursors." There is nothing in evolutionary theory to suggest that this is impossible, so you are just setting up a straw man (and you aren't even bothering to knock it over yourself; you are looking to somebody else to knock it over for you).trrll
September 15, 2006
September
09
Sep
15
15
2006
02:18 PM
2
02
18
PM
PDT
Qualiatative, it doesn't matter whether the human mind is entirely physical or not. DaveScot is arguing that abiogenesis needs intelligent agency. To do that he's relying on what humans can do. So he's trying to explain the origin of DNA, for example, by human beings and their minds which exist because of the very thing to be explained. That's begging the question.bebbo
September 15, 2006
September
09
Sep
15
15
2006
10:40 AM
10
10
40
AM
PDT
DaveScot: "I can’t speak for Bill Dembski nor predict what he will say. I can only speak for myself. Are you some kind of clairvoyant or mind reader or something?" Here's a secret I am surprised you have not caught on to: Much of the time you argue with me here, I am sticking close to what Bill has written, and you are not. If it seems to you I am mind reading, it must be that you have not read "Searching Large Spaces," "The Conservation of Information," and "Specification," or you have not understood their import. idnet.com.au: "However, what you and your people often claim to demonstrate...." Who, precisely, are my people? Projecting tribalism onto me ain't bright, and it sho' ain't right. I am here to learn about ID, and I think debate is a great way to learn. The fact that I challenge ID fans on their putative knowledge of ID and the consistency of their statements does not make me The Enemy. Precious few people here understand the significance of Bill's recent work. I don't fully endorse it, but folks here could learn from me if they were not so suspicious and defensive.Tom English
September 15, 2006
September
09
Sep
15
15
2006
07:43 AM
7
07
43
AM
PDT
DaveScot: "Yes, in demonstrating abiogenesis I believe I am asking for the impossible. But that’s okay because in principle I’m asking for the possible." Dave, lab experiments would necessarily manipulate a model (an abstraction, a simplification) of a prebiotic environment, not the environment itself. In past discussion of simulation models of evolution, you have demonstrated amply that you find abstraction acceptable: "... did you emulate random factors in nature that happen to kill the fittest? Did you emulate forest fires and arbitrarily kill whole familes of variants? Did you send in any floods to drown them, volcanoes to bury them, predators to eat them, etcetera? [...] In nature when an antelope gets faster he also requires more food which is a disadvantage in some situations. Did you try emulate the complexity of the environment that RM+NS in nature must confront?" https://uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/1481 (post 24) So with your high "principles" of evidence, it is in fact impossible for abiogenesis in the laboratory to satisfy you. And this leaves out entirely the fact that you and others here impute intelligent direction to any system set in motion by humans. (Enter Salvador, Schrödinger's cat, and quantum mysticism.)Tom English
September 15, 2006
September
09
Sep
15
15
2006
07:12 AM
7
07
12
AM
PDT
Tom English I can't speak for Bill Dembski nor predict what he will say. I can only speak for myself. Are you some kind of clairvoyant or mind reader or something? Yes, in demonstrating abiogenesis I believe I am asking for the impossible. But that's okay because in principle I'm asking for the possible. Valid hypotheses must be falsifiable in principle. If the hypothesis is correct it cannot be falsified in practice. Wasn't it a clear implication of "demonstrated in a laboratory" that the environment where the demonstration takes place is a laboratory mockup of the presumed natural environment and intelligent intervention would be creating conditions that aren't a faithful reproduction of the natural environment?DaveScot
September 15, 2006
September
09
Sep
15
15
2006
02:44 AM
2
02
44
AM
PDT
Hawks but they can’t have arisen without intelligent intervention I'm sorry, but unless I have some inkling of how a designer or designer is structured I can't agree with any assertions about what they must or must not be like. All they MUST have is some mastery of organic chemistry. What you've brought up is the classic "but who designed the designer" argument. I have no more idea of who designed the designer than I have of where the matter and energy in the univserse comes from. Maybe the designer came from there too. I can only analyze what I can observe and all I can observe in the realm of life is organic life here on earth.DaveScot
September 15, 2006
September
09
Sep
15
15
2006
02:23 AM
2
02
23
AM
PDT
Tom English wrote "Faced with a demonstration of abiogenesis, someone like Bill Dembski would immediately claim that the specified complexity of something in the pathway was too high for the pathway to have a natural explanation." People like Dr Dembski are not committed to their view being either fixed or eternally correct. They are open to new evidence. If abiogenesis were demonstrated I do not hesitate to say that I would change from a strong IDer to a weak ider. I think we would have no alternative. However, what you and your people often claim to demonstrate, is often very different to what you actually can substantiate given the unextrapolated experimental results. What people like Dr Dembski are interested in is TRUTH not ideology. It is the Truth, not ideology that sets us free.idnet.com.au
September 15, 2006
September
09
Sep
15
15
2006
01:05 AM
1
01
05
AM
PDT
DaveScot, I'm quite glad you brought up the issue of abiogenesis. Since, by your very own definition as far as I can tell, abiogeneis can't be separated from a designer, you must assume that somewhere along the line, there must be some form of supernatural intervention. Sure, maybe aliens intelligently designed us, but they can't have arisen without intelligent intervention, etc., etc. Logically, this would seem to imply that intelligent design can't be religion-neutral - there simply must be something supernatural.Hawks
September 15, 2006
September
09
Sep
15
15
2006
01:00 AM
1
01
00
AM
PDT
DaveScot: "The prediction may be falsified in principle by demonstrating a chemical pathway whereby abiogenesis takes place. This is a legitimate hypothesis that makes a testable prediction." Leading IDists definitely have not accepted that positive findings in the study of abiogenesis would falsify ID. Faced with a demonstration of abiogenesis, someone like Bill Dembski would immediately claim that the specified complexity of something in the pathway was too high for the pathway to have a natural explanation. DaveScot: "A predictionmade by this hypothesis is that no method of abiogenesis absent intelligent intervention can ever be demonstrated in a laboratory." Tell me if I am wrong, Dave, but for you a lab experiment uncontaminated by intelligent intervention is an oxymoron. So it seems you are playing a game with us here. Sure, we can falsify intelligent design. All scientists have to do is to do the impossible. Isn't that what you're saying?Tom English
September 14, 2006
September
09
Sep
14
14
2006
10:34 PM
10
10
34
PM
PDT
bebbo, You are the one begging the question when you assume the human mind is entirely physical.Qualiatative
September 14, 2006
September
09
Sep
14
14
2006
07:31 PM
7
07
31
PM
PDT
Abiogenesis means life from non life. The reasonablness of interpreting any experimental results as falsifying ID will be determined by the amount of specific design necessary to achive what is produced. If the experiment requires very special ingredients (like mixtures of only the 20 of the 64 possible amino acids present in life, and only their L forms, and very precise temperature and pressure situations and the output is not very impressive, then it will not be considered that ID has been falsified. Information is a real and non physical quantity in spite of the denials by those who find it inconvenient. see http://idnet.com.au/files/pdf/Life%20is%20not%20natural.pdf "Life is not natural"idnet.com.au
September 14, 2006
September
09
Sep
14
14
2006
04:45 PM
4
04
45
PM
PDT
"Biological ID research has thus demonstrably been proceeding for thousands of years and continues through today most recently with Harvard University throwing its hat in the ring setting out to prove abiogenesis is possible and plausible committing $1 million per year to the effort." If I understand this argument correctly, you are stating that all research into the origins of life on earth conducted within a strictly naturalistic framework is actually ID research. All of it. And this therefore refutes the tired canard that ID does not have a research program. Downright Orwellian.Reciprocating Bill
September 14, 2006
September
09
Sep
14
14
2006
04:18 PM
4
04
18
PM
PDT
DaveScott said: "Yes, there are positive ID programs! Many intelligent researchers are trying to create a living cell artificially by abiotic means. So far as I recall they’ve reconstructed a functional polio virus from nothing but sequencing data and some bacteriophage as well" Do you have more information on this -- who's doing it and where is this research being conducted. Any links?John Singleton
September 14, 2006
September
09
Sep
14
14
2006
03:54 PM
3
03
54
PM
PDT
The intelligent agents you are talking about are humans. Humans came about as a result of the things (ribosomes, DNA etc) that are to be explained. Not only that, but humans can only do some form of abiogenesis because of what they know about the biological world. It seems to me that claiming ID due to what humans can, or might, do is begging the question.bebbo
September 14, 2006
September
09
Sep
14
14
2006
03:41 PM
3
03
41
PM
PDT
DaveScot, "The prediction may be falsified in principle by demonstrating a chemical pathway whereby abiogenesis takes place. This is a legitimate hypothesis that makes a testable prediction. Therefore all attempts to demonstrate that abiogenesis is possible absent intelligent intervention is an attempt to falsify biological ID." I can't remember which one of you guys claimed (it might just have been a comment, btw) that doing evolutionary experiments are useless, since they are intelligently designed. The conclusion was that all these experiments would actually tell us is that an intelligent designer can cause evolution. IF(!) that is an ID position, then any successful abiogenesis experiment would by default point towards an intelligent designer. Your hypothesis would, thus, not be falsifiable. Your own statement: "A predictionmade by this hypothesis is that no method of abiogenesis absent intelligent intervention can ever be demonstrated in a laboratory.", seems to support what I just said.Hawks
September 14, 2006
September
09
Sep
14
14
2006
02:59 PM
2
02
59
PM
PDT
How long will it take to discover a cure for aids? How long will it take to develop practical fusion reactors to generate electricity? Nobody can answer these questions. Dave, Aren't you saying the opposite of this? Ie, that ID can answer these questions? (or at least the abiogenesis question) Saying that no method of abiogenesis absent intelligent intervention can ever be demonstrated is not really a testable, falsifiable statement. For one, the time scale is too vague. Second, it's not a positive statement. A testable, falsifiable prediction is something like "if X, then Y", not "if not-X, then Y". In order for your statement to be testable and falsifiable, you would need to show that abiogenesis actually cannot occur without an intelligent agency, not that we cannot demonstrate that it can occur. To use an oldie but goodie, absence of proof is not proof of absence. I don't like to get bogged down in abiogenesis because I think it is virtually impossible to say anything of certainty about what happened in a world with conditions we aren't entirely certain of. One thing I am certain of is that 150 years is not really nearly enough time for us to have figured out everything about everything.mjb2001
September 14, 2006
September
09
Sep
14
14
2006
02:56 PM
2
02
56
PM
PDT
DaveScot, seems like cjok missed where you said "no laboratory environments that don’t mimic those found in nature". When I read this, I take it to mean that scientists could work in labs, but they would have to emulate the conditions of nature way back when. Right?mike1962
September 14, 2006
September
09
Sep
14
14
2006
01:51 PM
1
01
51
PM
PDT
cjok just doesn't get it and is no longer with usDaveScot
September 14, 2006
September
09
Sep
14
14
2006
01:42 PM
1
01
42
PM
PDT
Northen Breeze: "It may take million or even more years for scientists to demonstrate ID-free abiogenesis in a laboratory." This is the only statement I've ever read on UD that made me laff out loud. Thanks! Anyway, I'd replace "million" with "billion", or maybe even "trillion." But while we're holding our breath, let's just see if anyone can get some good computer simulations first, with random mutations leading to virtual cells with 1% of the mechanical complexity of an E Coli. That would really be something.mike1962
September 14, 2006
September
09
Sep
14
14
2006
01:12 PM
1
01
12
PM
PDT
Davescot: "You misunderstood. Intelligent agents using any means at their disposal (...) are predicted to succeed in crafting a cell from non-living components. Means to abiogenesis that are restricted to only what was available to nature absent any intelligent agency (no machines, no laboratory environments that don’t mimic those found in nature), are predicted to fail." So, if I understand correctly, you assertion that successful abiogenesis research is actually ID research rests on the premise that scientists will use lab techniques that could not have ever occurred in nature in the last, oh say, 3 billion years or so? No how, no way? If that is true, then I stand corrected. This is more than a rhetorical slight of hand. It is a rhetorical slight of hand and a god-of-the-gaps argument all wrapped up into one. You are trying to assert that since intelligence has (presumably) caused abiogenesis, that only intelligence could have caused abiogenesis.cjok
September 14, 2006
September
09
Sep
14
14
2006
01:04 PM
1
01
04
PM
PDT
I mentioned on one of the other abiogenesis threads the idea that even if we could get self-replicating molecules in a lab , that this still would not in any way show that intelligent agency is absent from biogenesis. What if the agency which organizes molecules into life is non-material but acts upon matter? Then, this assemblage could well be repeated anytime the perfectly appropriate conditions are met physically. Is this faulty thinking? Help! I beg y'all not to ignore me this time... :)tinabrewer
September 14, 2006
September
09
Sep
14
14
2006
12:52 PM
12
12
52
PM
PDT
This is not a very practical prediction. It may take million or even more years for scientists to demonstrate ID-free abiogenesis in a laboratory. It may be done next year too. Discovery is like that. No one knows how long it will take. If we knew how long things will take to discover we could prioritize our efforts rather nicely. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. How long will it take to discover a cure for aids? How long will it take to develop practical fusion reactors to generate electricity? Nobody can answer these questions. Welcome to science and engineering.DaveScot
September 14, 2006
September
09
Sep
14
14
2006
12:40 PM
12
12
40
PM
PDT
"A predictionmade by this hypothesis is that no method of abiogenesis absent intelligent intervention can ever be demonstrated in a laboratory." This is not a very practical prediction. It may take million or even more years for scientists to demonstrate ID-free abiogenesis in a laboratory.Northern Breeze
September 14, 2006
September
09
Sep
14
14
2006
12:31 PM
12
12
31
PM
PDT
cjok You misunderstood. Intelligent agents using any means at their disposal (for instance gene splicing machines, DNA sequence libraries, tightly controlled temperatures & pH & concentrations of chemical agents, manufactured catalysts) are predicted to succeed in crafting a cell from non-living components. Means to abiogenesis that are restricted to only what was available to nature absent any intelligent agency (no machines, no laboratory environments that don't mimic those found in nature), are predicted to fail.DaveScot
September 14, 2006
September
09
Sep
14
14
2006
12:27 PM
12
12
27
PM
PDT
Davescot: "ID predicts that intelligent agents are capable of bringing about abiogenesis so we expect these research programs to succeed while at the same time we predict that abiogenesis attempts absent intelligent agency will fail." Back up the bus a second. I always hear that the failure of "Darwinist" scientists to explain abiogenesis is de facto support for ID. Now you are saying that if a researcher is able to define the chemical pathways to abiogenesis, that is proof of ID? That is claiming the same victory regardless of the outcome. Dude, that isn't a falsifiable research hypothesis, that is a rhetorical sleight of hand.cjok
September 14, 2006
September
09
Sep
14
14
2006
12:16 PM
12
12
16
PM
PDT
cjok Yes, there are positive ID programs! Many intelligent researchers are trying to create a living cell artificially by abiotic means. So far as I recall they've reconstructed a functional polio virus from nothing but sequencing data and some bacteriophage as well. That's not a cell but it's a good start and it's certainly a really good indication that intelligent agents are capable of crafting a living cell from inanimate chemical precursors. ID predicts that intelligent agents are capable of bringing about abiogenesis so we expect these research programs to succeed while at the same time we predict that abiogenesis attempts absent intelligent agency will fail.DaveScot
September 14, 2006
September
09
Sep
14
14
2006
11:40 AM
11
11
40
AM
PDT
Thanks johnnyb for your input. I believe we have diverging definitions of mechanistic. The neurosciences can, in principle, describe the *kinds* of decisions -- or actions, or computations, or whatever -- an intelligent agent can make. That is not to say scientists will ever be able to fully describe what a mind *is*. Penrose writes extensively on the noncomputability of the human mind. Specifically, he points to the Godel-Turing conclusion. Although he hasn't fully described the underlying ontology, he has illustrated our ability for higher order logic (something that can't confortably be subsumed in a materialist paradigm). Hypothetically speaking, if our minds have causative powers that 1.) determine micromolecular events 2.) defy reduction and 3.) are algorithmicaly sophisticated enough to create microstructures that exhibit specified complexity then this, in my opinion, would strong confirming evidence for ID.Qualiatative
September 14, 2006
September
09
Sep
14
14
2006
11:23 AM
11
11
23
AM
PDT
Davescot: "An ID hypothesis is that abiogenesis is practically impossible without intelligent agency. A predictionmade by this hypothesis is that no method of abiogenesis absent intelligent intervention can ever be demonstrated in a laboratory. The prediction may be falsified in principle by demonstrating a chemical pathway whereby abiogenesis takes place. This is a legitimate hypothesis that makes a testable prediction. Therefore all attempts to demonstrate that abiogenesis is possible absent intelligent intervention is an attempt to falsify biological ID. So I don’t want to hear the tired canard again that ID has no research programs." So does ID have a positive research program, with labcoats and pipets and stuff, that follows this protocol, or is it merely counting on the "Darwinist" research programs into abiogenesis to fail into perpetuity?cjok
September 14, 2006
September
09
Sep
14
14
2006
10:45 AM
10
10
45
AM
PDT
"If this is indeed the case, do you expect ID to become a more mechanistic theory once the neurosciences more fully elucidate the causal powers of the mind?" I think ID cannot be ID and be mechanistic at the same time. True agency is _choice contingency_. You see if an "agent’s causal powers are irreducible to physical laws acting upon material entities" then likewise the neurosciences will also find that their science is "irreducible to physical laws acting upon material entities". In fact, that is precisely the kind of thing that is described in Schwartz's paper. ID can be quantitative and qualititative, and it might even be predictive of a limit, limits, or an average, but it cannot continue to be ID and be deterministic.johnnyb
September 14, 2006
September
09
Sep
14
14
2006
10:05 AM
10
10
05
AM
PDT
This is an open question to anyone who thinks they have an answer, but I am particularly interested in Dr. Dembski's reaction. It seems to me that, at the core, ID theory hinges on the notion that an intelligent agent's causal powers are irreducible to physical laws acting upon material entities. If this is indeed the case, do you expect ID to become a more mechanistic theory once the neurosciences more fully elucidate the causal powers of the mind?Qualiatative
September 14, 2006
September
09
Sep
14
14
2006
09:48 AM
9
09
48
AM
PDT
1 2 3

Leave a Reply