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About intelligence and ID – a response to scordova

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My post intends to be a response to a previous UD article by scordova. Scordova, who asks “should ID include AI as a form of intelligence?” and answers “I think so”, is aware to have put on the table a critical topic because himself writes:

I know many of my ID colleagues will disagree or will remain skeptical of adopting such a convention.

I am one of his ID colleagues who disagrees and I will explain why.

Scordova wrote:

So what is the evidence of intelligence? I would suggest the ability to construct artifacts or events with Specified Improbability (the usual term is Specified Complexity, CSI, etc. but those terms are too confusing).

This is an extremely reductive way to consider intelligence. Why consider only the construction of artifacts? Are people not constructing artifacts all stupid? There are countless evidences of higher activities by human intelligence. For example: the elaboration of logic, languages, mathematics, philosophy, sciences… To reduce intelligence only to its practical uses is pragmatism/materialism of the worse kind. A movement that names itself “intelligent design movement” cannot have a conception of intelligence so low.

Thus factories with robots, smart cruise missiles, genetic algorithms, bacteria, a collective network of ants, etc. can be considered intelligent systems. The problem is that we have no means of distinguishing real from artificial intelligence in any formal way.

“Factories with robots, smart cruise missiles, genetic algorithms” are not “intelligent systems” because what they produce is entirely due to the intelligence of their human designers. It is not the artificial system to be “intelligent”, rather its designer.

With no disrespect intended toward those with severe mental handicaps, yes such people are conscious, but there is a point a robotic automaton might be capable of generating more Specified Improbability than such an individual.

Conscious persons with mental handicaps, also if unable to produce “Specified Improbability”, are far more than robots because consciousness is always ontologically superior to any machine.

Some of us have imagined building robots that will land on a planet and tame it and build cities. They will act pretty much like human engineers and construction workers… Hence, the line between real and artificial intelligence gets blurred.

Again, robots build cities because they are programmed to do so by human engineers. In this case, the “line between real and artificial intelligence” is the clear hierarchical demarcation between “who programs and what is programmed”. “Who” are the human robotics engineers, “what” are the robots.

From an empirical standpoint, I don’t think it does ID much good to try to distinguish the outcomes of real vs. artificial intelligence, since we can’t formally demonstrate one from the other anyway, at least with regard to Specified Improbability.

On the contrary, I think that ID should carefully distinguish between real vs. artificial intelligence. (A general exhortation of Scholasticism was “distingue frequenter” in all fields.) One of the goals of ID theory is indeed to show that chance and necessity cannot produce information. Machines belong to “chance and necessity” because they are “necessitated” by their designer, so to speak. Therefore an IDer who denies the above ID proof self-contradicts.

We can even assume the process of natural selection is AI (where Natural Selection is an AI genetic algorithm in the wild), given it’s level of intelligence, we do not expect it to build extravagant artifacts.

To consider natural selection an “AI genetic algorithm” is to attribute it a merit that it doesn’t deserve. Not only natural selection is unable to build “extravagant artifacts”, it is unable to build the least artifact.

We can say an adding machine is intelligent, but we do not think, in and of itself it will build a space shuttle.

Actually I have on my desk an old mechanical adding machine. If you call it “intelligent” then why don’t call “intelligent” the reading lamp or the paperknife?

We rate the capability of various intelligence systems, and it is reasonable to affix limitations on them.

True, but here you contradict what you said before “we have no means of distinguishing real from artificial intelligence”. In fact, if we can rate various intelligences, we can see they form a hierarchy where at the top there is the real intelligence and at the bottom the artificial “intelligence”.

Whether the Intelligence that made the wonders of life is God, A Computer in Sky, Aliens, the Borg Collective, some mechanistic intelligence…it is irrelevant to the design inference. We might however be able to make statements about the level of capability of that intelligence.

Here again I see an inconsistence. I agree that we are able to grasp the level of capability of intelligence. But then, before a design inference on the universe as a whole, we cannot suppose that it was designed by “a Computer in Sky, Aliens, the Borg Collective, some mechanistic intelligence”. See here.

To sum up, to scordova’s question “should ID include AI as a form of intelligence?” my answer is: “no, we cannot consider an artificial system really intelligent”. Here I explained that real intelligence is direct connection to what I called “Infinite Information Source” (God). Here I explained that without such direct connection no comprehensibility of the world, also at the least degree, is possible. Here I explained that artificial systems (also those more sophisticated considered by AI) can show only false intelligence.

The direct connection to the Infinite Information Source (IIS) is the reason why the potentiality of knowledge of the real intelligence is infinite, as its source. No machine has this direct connection. As such the potentiality of real direct knowledge of a machine is zero. From the point of view of potentiality, the difference between real intelligence and its caricature – artificial “intelligence” – is like the difference between infinite and zero.

To deny the IIS and its connection to man is to consider man as an isolated finite system, whose potentialities are necessarily limited, due only to the configuration of its parts. This way real intelligence with its infinite potentiality of knowledge remains entirely unexplained. Said in theological terms: if man is not image of God, then man couldn’t have the potentiality of understanding he effectively has. If this simplistic materialist conception is supported by evolutionists/materialists no wonder. If it is supported by an IDer/creationist I am a bit bemused.

Comments
Mapou #133
The stuff that you write about does not add to my knowledge and understanding. They are just words... I refuse to contribute further to the dissemination of what I consider to be superstition and pseudoscience. Sorry for offending some of you but I always tell it like I see it.
StephenB has just replied to you on the merit in an excellent manner, as he is used to do. So I have nothing to add to his clear words. I inform only that personally I am not offended by your words. And also if I were offended that has not the least importance. What matters are not the individualities, rather the Truth. So, more serious it would be if you have "offended" some truths, by calling them "superstition and pseudoscience". More serious for you, I mean, not for the truths, obviously, because always "vincit omnia veritas". Thanks to all for the contributions to this discussion and good weekend to all.niwrad
November 22, 2013
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Hi niwrad @127,
I don’t see how the quantum phenomena you describe can create CSI.
500 bits make 1 hCSI. I am not only programming the spin states, I am reading back a spin state which doesn't exist in my program!. I am, also by extension, creating and saving a new probabilistic state (For Eg, if my quarks are in electron - which according to Heisenberg uncertainty principle is in unknown probabilistic momentum and position, I create CSI for spin for two 'down quarks' and 1 'up quarks' and for saving state of electron. If you consider just 2 quibits, I am aiming for a XOR of cos^2(pi/8) equivalent to 1/4(2+[square root(2)]) so I am not sure what you mean by no CSI is created. I took the quantum computer example because Llyod's constant- which Dr.Dembski refers to is about quantum computing. Hi bornagain77 @126, Thank you for your references, but consider this:
then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe
no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem provide permanence to quantum information. To create a copy one must import the information from some part of the universe and to delete a state one needs to export it to another part of the universe where it will continue to exist.
'Some where in universe' would mean the quantum computer is a open system - unless I build a computer which is as big as the universe itself. So in essence you are referring to an infinite Quantum computer, where as we are discussing a closed system of Quantum computer. The nature of quantum particles is that it is in probabilistic state. If I take 6 quibits, it can exist in 2^6 = 64 superposition simultaneously, that's the reason 'it cannot be deleted' or 'it cannot be cloned' in classic sense. In quantum computing the operations are called 'approximate deletion' and 'approximate cloning'- not because it's not possible but because of probabilistic nature of quantum computing.
In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed.
I am stumped! Does it mean the Lloyd's constant derived from Quantum computation of 10^120 operations on 10^90 bits and considered by Dr.Dembski in hCSI calculation has not created any information?selvaRajan
November 22, 2013
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Mapou
BTW, God only creates matter, the brain, etc. Our spirits just are. They can be neither created nor destroyed. He gives the spirit a brain to think with, a tool for interacting with the physical. Without brains, our spirits are unconscious. As a Christian, this is what I believe because this what the scriptures teach us. All those stories about disembodied spirits (ghosts?) traveling around is just hocus pocus and superstition.
This is incorrect and I am not going to let it stand unchallenged. The Scripture says explicitly that God is a pure spirit. It also indicates that God created our spiritual component--an immaterial mind and will--faculties for thinking, feeling, and willing. It is the soul that animates the body (and the brain), not the other way around. The idea that the soul "just is" doesn't fly. Nothing comes into existence without a cause, and the cause of all things, spiritual and material, is God. Yes, because we have an immaterial soul, we will live forever. However, we certainly haven't always existed.StephenB
November 22, 2013
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Mapou, (sorry you are leaving, if that is the case) It is not superstition or pseudoscience to recognize both the role of the mind and the role of the brain. You are overstating the case about the latter. In fact, it is the mind that leads the brain and not the other way around. I think your false theological notions of God having a body are influencing your scientific arguments. Thoughts originate in the mind, the spiritual element, not in the brain, which is a physical organ. Thoughts are immaterial; they have no size, shape, or extension. They may pass through or interact with the brain, but they do not originate there. If anyone is being superstitious it is you, assigning to the brain a spiritual power that is reserved for the mind. There you have it. You are not the only one who is willing to tell it like it is.StephenB
November 22, 2013
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niwrad, The stuff that you write about does not add to my knowledge and understanding. They are just words. PS. to everyone. This is my last post in this thread. I refuse to contribute further to the dissemination of what I consider to be superstition and pseudoscience. Sorry for offending some of you but I always tell it like I see it.Mapou
November 22, 2013
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as to "We know exactly where memory resides (in the brain)," That is simply a false statement:
A Reply to Shermer Medical Evidence for NDEs (Near Death Experiences) – Pim van Lommel Excerpt: For decades, extensive research has been done to localize memories (information) inside the brain, so far without success.,,,,we need a functioning brain to receive our consciousness into our waking consciousness. http://www.nderf.org/vonlommel_skeptic_response.htm
In much the same fashion as information, self awareness cannot be 'localized' within the brain:
Self-awareness in humans is more complex, diffuse than previously thought - August 22, 2012 Excerpt: Self-awareness is defined as being aware of oneself, including one's traits, feelings, and behaviors. Neuroscientists have believed that three brain regions are critical for self-awareness: the insular cortex, the anterior cingulate cortex, and the medial prefrontal cortex. However, a research team led by the University of Iowa has challenged this theory by showing that self-awareness is more a product of a diffuse patchwork of pathways in the brain – including other regions – rather than confined to specific areas. The conclusions came from a rare opportunity to study a person with extensive brain damage to the three regions believed critical for self-awareness. The person, a 57-year-old, college-educated man known as "Patient R," passed all standard tests of self-awareness. He also displayed repeated self-recognition, both when looking in the mirror and when identifying himself in unaltered photographs taken during all periods of his life. "What this research clearly shows is that self-awareness corresponds to a brain process that cannot be localized to a single region of the brain,",,, http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-08-self-awareness-humans-complex-diffuse-previously.html
In fact memories are 'richer' from NDE's when the consciousness is unencumbered by the material brain (as jaw droppingly sophisticated as the material brain is)
'Afterlife' feels 'even more real than real,' researcher says - Wed April 10, 2013 Excerpt: "If you use this questionnaire ... if the memory is real, it's richer, and if the memory is recent, it's richer," he said. The coma scientists weren't expecting what the tests revealed. "To our surprise, NDEs were much richer than any imagined event or any real event of these coma survivors," Laureys reported. The memories of these experiences beat all other memories, hands down, for their vivid sense of reality. "The difference was so vast," he said with a sense of astonishment. Even if the patient had the experience a long time ago, its memory was as rich "as though it was yesterday," Laureys said. http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/09/health/belgium-near-death-experiences/
In fact, I spent the entire post at 122 explaining exactly why it is impossible, from a physics perspective, for information/memory to be stored "in" the brain, but that it must somehow, because of limitations imposed by physics, reside on a spiritual level that is not dependent on the brain for its continued existence/subsistence: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/about-intelligence-and-id-a-response-to-scordova/#comment-480841 related notes:
Materialism of the Gaps - Michael Egnor (Neurosurgeon) - January 29, 2009 Excerpt: The evidence that some aspects of the mind are immaterial is overwhelming. It's notable that many of the leading neuroscientists -- Sherrington, Penfield, Eccles, Libet -- were dualists. Dualism of some sort is the most reasonable scientific framework to apply to the mind-brain problem, because, unlike dogmatic materialism, it just follows the evidence. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/01/materialism_of_the_gaps015901.html “As I remarked earlier, this may present an “insuperable” difficulty for some scientists of materialists bent, but the fact remains, and is demonstrated by research, that non-material mind acts on material brain.” Sir John Eccles - Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine 1963 - (as quoted in Cousins, 1985, pp. 61-62,85-86)
as to non material acting on material
An Interview with David Berlinski - Jonathan Witt Berlinski: There is no argument against religion that is not also an argument against mathematics. Mathematicians are capable of grasping a world of objects that lies beyond space and time …. Interviewer:… Come again(?) … Berlinski: No need to come again: I got to where I was going the first time. The number four, after all, did not come into existence at a particular time, and it is not going to go out of existence at another time. It is neither here nor there. Nonetheless we are in some sense able to grasp the number by a faculty of our minds. Mathematical intuition is utterly mysterious. So for that matter is the fact that mathematical objects such as a Lie Group or a differentiable manifold have the power to interact with elementary particles or accelerating forces. But these are precisely the claims that theologians have always made as well – that human beings are capable by an exercise of their devotional abilities to come to some understanding of the deity; and the deity, although beyond space and time, is capable of interacting with material objects. http://tofspot.blogspot.com/2013/10/found-upon-web-and-reprinted-here.html
supplemental note;
“I was in a body, and the only way that I can describe it was a body of energy, or of light. And this body had a form. It had a head, it had arms and it had legs. And it was like it was made out of light. And it was everything that was me. All of my memories, my consciousness, everything.”,,, “And then this vehicle formed itself around me. Vehicle is the only thing, or tube, or something, but it was a mode of transportation that’s for sure! And it formed around me. And there was no one in it with me. I was in it alone. But I knew there were other people ahead of me and behind me. What they were doing I don’t know, but there were people ahead of me and people behind me, but I was alone in my particular conveyance. And I could see out of it. And it went at a tremendously, horrifically, rapid rate of speed. But it wasn’t unpleasant. It was beautiful in fact. I was reclining in this thing, I wasn’t sitting straight up, but I wasn’t lying down either. I was sitting back. And it was just so fast. I can’t even begin to tell you where it went or whatever it was just fast!" – Vicki’s NDE – Blind since birth - quote taken from first part of the following video Near Death Experience Tunnel - Speed Of Light - Turin Shroud - video http://www.vimeo.com/18371644
bornagain77
November 22, 2013
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Mapou Ok. You say "all that stuff about relationships between God and man is a bunch of useless words that mean absolutely nothing to me". Don't you think that the relationships between God and you are something worth investigation? Here I don't speak as a debater. I have nothing to sell and no one to convince. Here I speak as a friend and colleague (after all we are both IDers and UDers no?). I think that for a man the investigation on the relationships between God and himself is the most important thing to do in his life. This has a lot to do with the goal of life: to know. By the way, I appreciate your appreciation of the human brain complexity. You seem to have a deep knowledge of the brain and its functions. That's fine. Anyway never set limits to what you can know. Maybe it is larger than thought.niwrad
November 22, 2013
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niwrad, all I know is that God created a fabulously sophisticated organ called the brain. He did not create it to be a dumb input/output device. We know exactly where memory resides, in the cortical columns. We know exactly where visual inputs are processed to allow us to recognize patterns, such as cats, cows, grandma and Angelina Jolie. None of that stuff would be needed if intelligence was entirely in the spirit. BTW, all that stuff about relationships between God and man is a bunch of useless words that mean absolutely nothing to me. I told you before, I'm a logical thinker. BTW, God only creates matter, the brain, etc. Our spirits just are. They can be neither created nor destroyed. He gives the spirit a brain to think with, a tool for interacting with the physical. Without brains, our spirits are unconscious. As a Christian, this is what I believe because this what the scriptures teach us. All those stories about disembodied spirits (ghosts?) traveling around is just hocus pocus and superstition.Mapou
November 22, 2013
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Mapou #128
No matter how intelligent the machine behaves, it’s never the machine that is intelligent but the programmer/creator that did it. It’s a question of dogma. But the same can be said of humans. It’s not humans that are intelligent, it’s God who created humans. Intelligence by proxy. Lol.
It is not the same thing. Because the relation between God and man is not the same relation existent between man and machine. The former relation is much more direct, essential and integrated than the latter. Man is not simply a machine made by God and external to Him, rather a true image/manifestation of Him on earth.niwrad
November 22, 2013
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bornagain77:
as to: “Mapou has shown how ordinary computer can create CSI.” No he has not! As I pointed out earlier, Dembski and Marks, in their previous work, have shown that there is a regress of information to the algorithm.
I think I now see where the problem is. bornagain77 refuses to accept that a machine can be intelligent because he has already convinced himself that only spirits or souls can be intelligent. No matter how intelligent the machine behaves, it's never the machine that is intelligent but the programmer/creator that did it. It's a question of dogma. But the same can be said of humans. It's not humans that are intelligent, it's God who created humans. Intelligence by proxy. LOL.Mapou
November 22, 2013
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selvaRajan #125 I don't see how the quantum phenomena you describe can create CSI. Eventually a system based on them can work as a pseudo-random generator. We are even distant from AI based on traditional computers.niwrad
November 22, 2013
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as to: "Mapou has shown how ordinary computer can create CSI." No he has not! As I pointed out earlier, Dembski and Marks, in their previous work, have shown that there is a regress of information to the algorithm. Moreover, in subsequent work, if one tries to account for a successful search for information, the inference to design only intensifies. i.e. There must be an ultimate source for information.
Before They've Even Seen Stephen Meyer's New Book, Darwinists Waste No Time in Criticizing Darwin's Doubt - William A. Dembski - April 4, 2013 Excerpt: In the newer approach to conservation of information, the focus is not on drawing design inferences but on understanding search in general and how information facilitates successful search. The focus is therefore not so much on individual probabilities as on probability distributions and how they change as searches incorporate information. My universal probability bound of 1 in 10^150 (a perennial sticking point for Shallit and Felsenstein) therefore becomes irrelevant in the new form of conservation of information whereas in the earlier it was essential because there a certain probability threshold had to be attained before conservation of information could be said to apply. The new form is more powerful and conceptually elegant. Rather than lead to a design inference, it shows that accounting for the information required for successful search leads to a regress that only intensifies as one backtracks. It therefore suggests an ultimate source of information, which it can reasonably be argued is a designer. I explain all this in a nontechnical way in an article I posted at ENV a few months back titled "Conservation of Information Made Simple" (go here). ,,, ,,, Here are the two seminal papers on conservation of information that I've written with Robert Marks: "The Search for a Search: Measuring the Information Cost of Higher-Level Search," Journal of Advanced Computational Intelligence and Intelligent Informatics 14(5) (2010): 475-486 "Conservation of Information in Search: Measuring the Cost of Success," IEEE Transactions on Systems, Man and Cybernetics A, Systems & Humans, 5(5) (September 2009): 1051-1061 For other papers that Marks, his students, and I have done to extend the results in these papers, visit the publications page at www.evoinfo.org http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/04/before_theyve_e070821.html
As to your insistence that quantum computation 'creates' new information, all I have to do show you to be wrong in your presupposition is to point out the fact that Quantum Information is, in fact, conserved:
Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem. A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html Quantum no-deleting theorem Excerpt: A stronger version of the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem provide permanence to quantum information. To create a copy one must import the information from some part of the universe and to delete a state one needs to export it to another part of the universe where it will continue to exist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_no-deleting_theorem#Consequence
Perhaps next you will be claiming that you can create new matter-energy and thus also violate the conservation of matter-energy as well as the conservation of information? Of somewhat related note, information is its own entity, completely separate from and even primary to, matter and energy;
Quantum Entanglement and Information Quantum entanglement is a physical resource, like energy, associated with the peculiar nonclassical correlations that are possible between separated quantum systems. Entanglement can be measured, transformed, and purified. A pair of quantum systems in an entangled state can be used as a quantum information channel to perform computational and cryptographic tasks that are impossible for classical systems. The general study of the information-processing capabilities of quantum systems is the subject of quantum information theory. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-entangle/ "Information is information, not matter or energy. No materialism which does not admit this can survive at the present day." Norbert Weiner - MIT Mathematician -(Cybernetics, 2nd edition, p.132) Norbert Wiener created the modern field of control and communication systems, utilizing concepts like negative feedback. His seminal 1948 book Cybernetics both defined and named the new field.
also of note classical information is shown to be a subset of 'conserved' quantum information by the following method:
Quantum knowledge cools computers: New understanding of entropy – June 2011 Excerpt: No heat, even a cooling effect; In the case of perfect classical knowledge of a computer memory (zero entropy), deletion of the data requires in theory no energy at all. The researchers prove that “more than complete knowledge” from quantum entanglement with the memory (negative entropy) leads to deletion of the data being accompanied by removal of heat from the computer and its release as usable energy. This is the physical meaning of negative entropy. Renner emphasizes, however, “This doesn’t mean that we can develop a perpetual motion machine.” The data can only be deleted once, so there is no possibility to continue to generate energy. The process also destroys the entanglement, and it would take an input of energy to reset the system to its starting state. The equations are consistent with what’s known as the second law of thermodynamics: the idea that the entropy of the universe can never decrease. Vedral says “We’re working on the edge of the second law. If you go any further, you will break it.” http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110601134300.htm
Verse:
John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. Todd Agnew – This Fragile Breath http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoGPG4JOcXs
bornagain77
November 22, 2013
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bornagain77,
when it added 2 + 2 and found 4 for an answer. i.e. 4 is not new information! 4 existed all along within 2 + 2.
Mapou has shown how ordinary computer can create CSI. Let's look into quantum computing, since Lloyd's constant is about Quantum computing. Quantum computing involves storing, retrieving and processing information based on Quantum states of particles. 1. I can 'program' the Quarks to have a spin of 45 degree. What happens when I try to read it back? I will get either a up or a down spin- never 45 degree spin.(refer Quantum spins) I or my algorithm didn't program that the spin be turned up or down yet I got new CSI which was generated by system of Quantum particles. 2. Let's 'program' a streams of parallel photons. I will read the state of photons from the pattern made on detectors passing through slit. When I detect the photons, I will get wave interference pattern - not the expected 'non interference pattern'. However if I don't try to detect, I will have the non-interference pattern - again new CSI.The photons 'know' I detected it and they change the interference pattern - not only are they creating CSI, they are defying the instructions programmed!(refer to double slit experiment) 3. If I program quantum entangled particles, I will never get what I put into the second particle, I will get what ever I put into the first particle - Again new CSI which was not programmed at all. (refer quantum entanglement) We are just talking Quarks here, I can go on with other Fermions, Gluons and Bosons. However I agree that no amount of AI can develop conscience. niward,
The ID movement will win scientism and all its sub-products (Darwinism included) when we will use more principles beyond statistics in our arguments.
IMHO ID concept has a long way to go before being accepted into main stream - doesn't matter what principles you use.selvaRajan
November 22, 2013
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Verse and Music: Matthew 12:36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, Third Day - Trust In Jesus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BtaCeJYqZAbornagain77
November 22, 2013
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Thus, the brain is either operating on reversible computation principles that no computer (or more properly, no computer engineer) can come close to emulating (Charles Bennett; IBM), or, as is much more likely, the brain is not erasing information from its memory, as the material computer is required to do during arithmetical operations, because our memories are in fact stored on the ‘spiritual’ level rather than on a material level,,, To support this view that ‘memory/information’ is not being stored in the brain, but must somehow be stored on the 'spiritual' level, one of the most common features of extremely deep near death experiences is the ‘life review’ where every minute detail of a person’s life, every word, every deed, is reviewed in the presence of God:
Near Death Experience (NDE) – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200/
As to someone who would object that NDE's are not admissible as 'scientific' evidence, I respond that then Darwinism itself must be considered not 'scientific':
Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist's Evidentiary Standards to the Test - Dr. Michael Egnor - October 15, 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE's are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception -- such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE's have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,, The most "parsimonious" explanation -- the simplest scientific explanation -- is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species (or origin of life), which is never.,,, The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE's show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it's earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it's all a big yawn. Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/near_death_expe_1065301.html "A recent analysis of several hundred cases showed that 48% of near-death experiencers reported seeing their physical bodies from a different visual perspective. Many of them also reported witnessing events going on in the vicinity of their body, such as the attempts of medical personnel to resuscitate them (Kelly et al., 2007)." Kelly, E. W., Greyson, B., & Kelly, E. F. (2007). Unusual experiences near death and related phenomena. In E. F. Kelly, E. W. Kelly, A. Crabtree, A. Gauld, M. Grosso, & B. Greyson, Irreducible mind (pp. 367-421). Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield.
bornagain77
November 22, 2013
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Of related note: Are computers conscious/intelligent? In contrast to the classical information in DNA (and in computers), no one has ever located exactly where a person’s information/memories are stored in the brain.
A Reply to Shermer Medical Evidence for NDEs (Near Death Experiences) – Pim van Lommel Excerpt: For decades, extensive research has been done to localize memories (information) inside the brain, so far without success.,,,,So we need a functioning brain to receive our consciousness into our waking consciousness. http://www.nderf.org/vonlommel_skeptic_response.htm
In fact, it appears to be a physical requirement that memories/information be stored ‘non-physically’, on a ‘spiritual’ basis, rather than a physical basis because of the following principle of physics,,,
Human brain has more switches than all computers on Earth – November 2010 Excerpt: They found that the brain’s complexity is beyond anything they’d imagined, almost to the point of being beyond belief, says Stephen Smith, a professor of molecular and cellular physiology and senior author of the paper describing the study: …One synapse, by itself, is more like a microprocessor–with both memory-storage and information-processing elements–than a mere on/off switch. In fact, one synapse may contain on the order of 1,000 molecular-scale switches. A single human brain has more switches than all the computers and routers and Internet connections on Earth. (and even level of complexity for the brain this is a severe underestimation according to Dr. VJ Torley) http://news.cnet.com/8301-27083_3-20023112-247.html Smart Neurons: Single Neuronal Dendrites Can Perform Computations - Oct. 27, 2013 Excerpt: The results challenge the widely held view that this kind of computation is achieved only by large numbers of neurons working together, and demonstrate how the basic components of the brain are exceptionally powerful computing devices in their own right. Senior author Professor Michael Hausser commented: "This work shows that dendrites, long thought to simply 'funnel' incoming signals towards the soma, instead play a key role in sorting and interpreting the enormous barrage of inputs received by the neuron. Dendrites thus act as miniature computing devices for detecting and amplifying specific types of input. "This new property of dendrites adds an important new element to the "toolkit" for computation in the brain. This kind of dendritic processing is likely to be widespread across many brain areas and indeed many different animal species, including humans.",,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131027140632.htm
And please note, this newly found computational complexity that was found last month is on top of what was already considered to be the 'beyond belief' computational complexity of the brain that was found in 2010: But computers with many switches have a huge problem with heat,,,
Supercomputer architecture Excerpt: Throughout the decades, the management of heat density has remained a key issue for most centralized supercomputers.[4][5][6] The large amount of heat generated by a system may also have other effects, such as reducing the lifetime of other system components.[7] There have been diverse approaches to heat management, from pumping Fluorinert through the system, to a hybrid liquid-air cooling system or air cooling with normal air conditioning temperatures. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercomputer_architecture
Yet the brain, though shown to have at least as many switches as all the computers, routers, and internet connections, on earth does not have such a problem with heat,,,
Appraising the brain’s energy budget: Excerpt: In the average adult human, the brain represents about 2% of the body weight. Remarkably, despite its relatively small size, the brain accounts for about 20% of the oxygen and, hence, calories consumed by the body. This high rate of metabolism is remarkably constant despite widely varying mental and motoric activity. The metabolic activity of the brain is remarkably constant over time. http://www.pnas.org/content/99/16/10237.full THE EFFECT OF MENTAL ARITHMETIC ON CEREBRAL CIRCULATION AND METABOLISM Excerpt: Although Lennox considered the performance of mental arithmetic as “mental work”, it is not immediately apparent what the nature of that work in the physical sense might be if, indeed, there be any. If no work or energy transformation is involved in the process of thought, then it is not surprising that cerebral oxygen consumption is unaltered during mental arithmetic. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC438861/pdf/jcinvest00624-0127.pdf Does Thinking Really Hard Burn More Calories? – By Ferris Jabr – July 2012 Excerpt: So a typical adult human brain runs on around 12 watts—a fifth of the power required by a standard 60 watt lightbulb. Compared with most other organs, the brain is greedy; pitted against man-made electronics, it is astoundingly efficient. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=thinking-hard-calories
What is interesting in all this is that a certain percentage of the heat generated by computers is because of something known as Landauer’s principle.
Landauer’s principle Of Note: “any logically irreversible manipulation of information, such as the erasure of a bit or the merging of two computation paths, must be accompanied by a corresponding entropy increase ,,, Specifically, each bit of lost information will lead to the release of an (specific) amount (at least kT ln 2) of heat.,,, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landauer%27s_principle
Moreover, Landauer’s principle implies that when a certain number of arithmetical operations per second have been exceeded, the computer will produce so much heat that the heat is impossible to dissipate.
Quantum knowledge cools computers - Published: 01.06.11 Excerpt: The fact that computers produce heat when they process data is a logistical challenge for computer manufacturers and supercomputer operators. In addition, this heat production also imposes a fundamental limit on their maximum possible performance. According to the so-called Landauer Principle formulated by the physicist Rolf Landauer in 1961, energy is always released as heat when data is deleted. Renner says, “According to Landauer’s Principle, if a certain number of computing operations per second is exceeded, the heat generated can no longer be dissipated.” Assuming that supercomputers develop at the same rate as in the past, this critical limit will probably be reached in the next 10 to 20 years. http://www.ethlife.ethz.ch/archive_articles/110601_Naturepaper_Renner_su/index_EN
bornagain77
November 22, 2013
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Mapou, to repeat: As to AI being a type of Turing machine, I’ve already provided the reason why I find your argument very unconvincing as to why it is not and have invited you to take the matter up with Dr. Marks if you disagree with him and Dembski on the matter, since he seems well equipped (understatement) to answer any specific questions you may ask of him in that regards as to AI not being a type of Turing machine (p.s. I recommend not calling him belligerent names as you have done to me as he is a very busy man and will not afford you the patience I have)bornagain77
November 22, 2013
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scordova #108
There is a slight nuance. ... B. There are varieties of intelligence: real and artificial, but both forms are forms of intelligence. ... I arrived at this not because I’m a materialist, but primarily because the EF (a central thesis of ID, and one I support) cannot distinguish between the two forms.
This discussion is not about "slight nuances", rather about principles. I don't accept to call "intelligent" the AI systems. It is a modern perversion. AI systems are machines designed and constructed by humans. Whatever AI systems do is merit of their creators. Between the creator and the created there is an ontological difference. This different hierarchical rank is what allows humans to grasp meanings, while machines grasp zero meanings. Moreover, as I already said, the "ratio" in potential knowledge between humans and robots is like infinite vs. zero. Therefore zero intelligence is no intelligence, like 0 X N = 0, for whatever N. Why to call "intelligent" what has no intelligence? If you don't believe and don't defend this "infinite vs. zero" sorry but you are a materialist/atheist, because de facto you deny the infinite information source and its connection to man. If your God is a finite God it is not God at all. The fact the EF cannot distinguish between the two forms (real intelligence and faked intelligence) is a defect of the EF, which doesn't change an iota of the above question of principle. After all, the EF is a tool, with all the limits of tools. We cannot build a worldview on a single tool. The ID movement would be weak if it would base all its arguments on the EF only. In fact evolutionists don't care much about the EF and the evo/ID war is not yet won by us. Your Darwinian "dead horse" is yet alive and well. The ID movement will win scientism and all its sub-products (Darwinism included) when we will use more principles beyond statistics in our arguments.niwrad
November 21, 2013
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Also, it is not surprising that computers can do things that human beings cannot do. If they could not, there would be no reason for using them, nor would there be a reason for using cars, refridgerators or a hammer.tragic mishap
November 21, 2013
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The only book I would recommend on this topic is On Intelligence by Jeff Hawkins.
Funny you mention that book. I read it years ago and it's excellent. What I took away from it appears to be very different from what you did. In fact, Hawkins entire thesis is that in order to create artificial intelligence (a term he refuses to use because of its academic meaning, which he doesn't like), we must look at the model: human brains. He spends most of the book talking about the human brain as a model for an artificial brain. He doesn't spend a whole lot of time talking about how that has worked out. The hierarchy model he proposes obviously implies a top-down learning architecture, not the bottom-up style you are implying. The brain he describes in the book does not create options from which the top of the hierarchy chooses. Rather, learned "programs" are pushed down the hierarchy from the top until they become more and more automatic, but initially they are programmed from the top down. Again, what I took away from that book appears to be very different from what you did.tragic mishap
November 21, 2013
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bornagain77 @116:
Computers (intelligent machines in your parlance) are not “creating” CSI. They are solving for a problem by searching a well defined search space. The solution to the problem is known to exist within a particular search space and the computer uses an algorithm that is designed to search that particular space for the solution to the problem. The solution may very well contain CSI. But the CSI was not ‘created’ de novo by the computer, it was solved for by the computer using the algorithm!
This would be true in a program that is emulating a Turing machine. That is to say, the input data is first given to the program and then the program is started, allowed to run until it stops and finally, the generated output is examined. This is not what happens in an intelligent program or robot that is outfitted with sensors that can detect various phenomena in a real world environment. The search data is not known prior to running the program. And it is certainly not well defined. For example, I am working on a speech recognition program called Rebel Speech. The program code (written in C#) is only about 50 K. However, during learning, Rebel Speech creates two data hierarchies, one for patterns and one for sequences. This hierarchical brain starts with a number of sensory neurons (less than 5 K) but it can grow into tens of megabytes. I can put a microphone in front of a TV and the program will create representations for all sorts of sounds, not just speech. It can learn to recognize the barking of a dog or the honk of a car horn, for examples. I never wrote a single line of code having to do with either horns or barking dogs. I conclude that the created hierarchies (one for patterns and one for sequences) consist of both complex and specified information that were not originally part of the program's input data.Mapou
November 21, 2013
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Computers (intelligent machines in your parlance) are not "creating" CSI. They are solving for a problem by searching a well defined search space. The solution to the problem is known to exist within a particular search space and the computer uses an algorithm that is designed to search that particular space for the solution to the problem. The solution may very well contain CSI. But the CSI was not 'created' de novo by the computer, it was solved for by the computer using the algorithm! Dembski and Marks use what they term 'active' information to track the information that is 'smuggled into the solution' by the algorithm to show that conservation of information is never violated. i.e. The information in the solution is not greater than the information that was contained in the initial algorithm to find the solution. In fact, algorithms used to find a particular solution can be quite lengthy in their coding whereas the solution found by that algorithm will be fairly simple. The main point is that the search for the solution in the space was guided, every step of the way, along its path to the solution by the algorithm. To say a computer created new information in finding the solution is equivalent to you saying that the computer created new information when it added 2 + 2 and found 4 for an answer. i.e. 4 is not new information! 4 existed all along within 2 + 2. As to AI being a type of Turing machine, I've already provided the reason why I find your argument very unconvincing and have invited you to take the matter up with Dr. Marks if you disagree with him and Dembski, since he seems well equipped (understatement) to answer any specific questions you may ask of him in that regards (p.s. I recommend not calling him belligerent names as he is a very busy man and will not afford you the patience I have)bornagain77
November 21, 2013
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bornagain77, IMHO, The context of 'Law of conservation of information' is blind search space vs directed search space. In that context the Lloyd's constant of 10^120 may apply, but it cannot be generalized to mean information is finite. Of course that doesn't mean AI can create consciousness - which is not what Mapou is claiming.selvaRajan
November 21, 2013
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I now stand firmly on the side that an intelligent machine can create CSI. Refute that. I changed my mind from my previous stance when it became clear to me that such a machine is not a natural object but an artifact, i.e., a sophisticated tool created by another intelligent entity. As such, it is an extension of the original creator/designer. [I am sure the Gods used many of their own powerful engineering and design tools when they formed life on earth. It was not a "POOF and it was done" thing. Everything was created through wisdom and understanding.] My position re Dr. Dembski's apparent belief that the modern computer or AI system is a type of Turing machine is this: he is mistaken. I provided my arguments for this @105 above. Refute those too. But then again, you don't have to do anything. I'll be happy with that as well. :)Mapou
November 21, 2013
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Mapou, I never called you a coward (or any name at all). But I do find your arguments very unconvincing. And frankly, I am pretty sure if I refuted your points one by one with peer review, you would tell me I was arguing from authority or some such as that. So why should I waste the time when you have not bothered to reference your claims in the first place? Do you want me to do you work as well as mine? Moreover you have flipped flopped on your claim for information generation right here on this very thread. therefore your definition of Intelligence is not even firmly established. i.e. If I were to muster the capacity to care to respond to you, exactly which position would I be refuting? your claim where artificial intelligence can violate conservation of information theorems or your claim where they cannot? Such details matter!bornagain77
November 21, 2013
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I agree with Mapou that computers can learn based on environmental inputs. The programmer inputs algorithm without knowing the type (you could have many sensors) and amount of input which may be needed to carry out a process. I also agree with niwrad that no amount of AI cannot create consciousness.selvaRajan
November 21, 2013
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tragic mishap:
I would like to learn about these temporal principles. Could you refer me to some literature or resources on the topic?
The only book I would recommend on this topic is On Intelligence by Jeff Hawkins. The basic principles are simple, though. Intelligence is said to be a signal processing mechanism. Essentially, perceptual learning is based on the observation that discrete sensory signals can have only two types of temporal relationships: they are either concurrent or sequential. Learning consists of discovering patterns of concurrent signals and sequences of said patterns. Both patterns and sequences are stored in hierarchies (trees) that some are calling deep neural networks.Mapou
November 21, 2013
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bornagain77, I, too, could argue from authority and I could refer you to the work of computer scientists to support my stance on this issue but I refuse to do so. My arguments @105 stand on their own merit. If you or anyone else think you can refute them, by all means, have a go at it. I will not run away and cower in fear, I assure you. It is my firm opinion that Dr. Dembski and Dr. Marks are mistaken. On a side but relevant note, consider that there is a personality cult surrounding Alan Turing that is as powerful as the ones surrounding Charles Darwin or Albert Einstein. Nobody can criticise those demigods without being branded a homophobe, an anti-science creationist or an anti-semite. It's sickening. Luckily for me, the scientific community does not put food on my table and even if they did, I would still tell them to kiss my asteroid orifice, if you know what I mean. :-DMapou
November 21, 2013
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Mapou, I sure that Dembski does not make this following statement lightly:
"and they’ve all (all AI) been shown to perform the same — no less and no more — computations as Turing’s originally proposed machine."
The reason why I say that Dr. Demski does not make that statement lightly is because the articles and books on his and Dr. Marks publication page, that are ID friendly, include such titles as,,,
Time series prediction with recurrent neural networks trained by a hybrid PSO-EA algorithm Xindi Cai, Nian Zhang, Ganesh K. Venayagamoorthy, and Donald C. Wunsch, II. Xindi Cai, Nian Zhang, Ganesh K. Venayagamoorthy, and Donald C. Wunsch, II. Time series prediction with recurrent neural networks trained by a hybrid PSO-EA algorithm. Neurocomput., 70:2342–2353, 2007. Training Winner-Take-All Simultaneous Recurrent Neural Networks Xindi Cai, D.V. Prokhorov, and D.C. Wunsch. Xindi Cai, D.V. Prokhorov, and D.C. Wunsch. Training Winner-Take-All Simultaneous Recurrent Neural Networks. Neural Networks, IEEE Transactions on, 18:674 –684, may. 2007. Real-Time Neural Network Inversion on the SRC-6e Reconfigurable Computer Russell W. Duren, Robert J. Marks II, Paul D. Reynolds and Matthew L. Trumbo Russell W. Duren, Robert J. Marks II, Paul D. Reynolds and Matthew L. Trumbo, "Real-Time Neural Network Inversion on the SRC-6e Reconfigurable Computer," IEEE Transactions on Neural Networks, vol. 18, no. 3, May 2007 pp. 889-901. Inversion of feedforward neural networks: algorithms and applications C.A. Jensen, R.D. Reed, R.J. Marks II, M.A. El-Sharkawi, Jae-Byung Jung, R.T. Miyamoto, G.M. Anderson, C.J. Eggen C.A. Jensen, R.D. Reed, R.J. Marks II, M.A. El-Sharkawi, Jae-Byung Jung, R.T. Miyamoto, G.M. Anderson, C.J. Eggen, "Inversion of feedforward neural networks: algorithms and applications", Proceedings of the IEEE, Volume: 87 9, Sept. 1999 , Page(s): 1536 -1549 Neural Smithing: Supervised Learning in Feedforward Artificial Neural Networks Russell D. Reed and Robert J. Marks MIT Press ISBN 978-0262181907 March 26, 1999 Neurosmithing: Techniques to improve network learning Russell Reed and Robert J. Marks I Russell Reed and Robert J. Marks II,"Neurosmithing: Techniques to improve network learning", in The Handbook of Neural Networks, M. Arbib, Editor, (MIT Press, 1995). Neural network explanation using inversion Emad W. Saad and Donald C. Wunsch, II. Emad W. Saad and Donald C. Wunsch, II. Neural network explanation using inversion. Neural Netw., 20:78–93, 2007. Computational Intelligence : Imitating Life Jacek Zurada and Robert J. Marks II and Charles J. Robinson IEEE Press ISBN 978-0780311046 July 1994 http://www.evoinfo.org/publications/
and I remind you that Dr. Marks is Distinguished Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering at Baylor University
Dr. Robert J Marks II http://www.ecs.baylor.edu/ece/index.php?id=52632
Perhaps if you want to argue with someone that neural networks are intelligent, in that they can do more than they were originally programmed to do, (i.e. generate more information than is inherent in the programming of the computerr and thus falsifying all the conservation of information theorems elucidated thus far), then you can write to him at Baylor at hash it out with him. If you can convince him that your position is correct, then I will take your position more seriously than I currently do. but Until you can convince him that computers can do more than they are programmed to do, then I will take his and Dr. Dembski's side over your and Mr. Cordova's (personal opinion) side. It is a no brainer for me. On the one hand I have a blogger who has insulted me over and over, and on the other I have a Distinguished professor who actually builds these things, and teaches others how to build them. Of note: Here is a lecture video on information that I enjoyed immensely from Dr. Marks:
Information. What is it? Robert Marks PhD. - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7seCcS_gPk
Verse and Music:
John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. Sara Groves - The Word - music video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ofE-GZ8zTU
bornagain77
November 21, 2013
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niwrad wrote: one cannot state that AI is real intelligence.
There is a slight nuance. First, here are the viewpoints: A. AI is not real intelligence, AI is not intelligence B. There are varieties of intelligence: real and artificial, but both forms are forms of intelligence C. Real Intelligence is the same as AI D. Something else I accept B. I do no call AI real, it is intelligence, but I do not call it real intelligence, I call it Artificial Intelligence. Someone has artificial body parts. To me they are still body parts, even though they aren't "real". I arrived at this not because I'm a materialist, but primarily because the EF (a central thesis of ID, and one I support) cannot distinguish between the two forms. Also, front-loaded ID has some unwitting sympathy to this view. Most of what needs to be said, has been said, but I do think there is a difference between real and artificial intelligence. At issue is whether we can, for the purposes of ID, treat them as forms of intelligence capable of making CSI that will pass the EF.scordova
November 21, 2013
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