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Abraham Redux: Please Focus on the Issue

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In the post below Dr. Dembski brought the Abraham case to our attention and asked whether it is legitimate to fire an employee merely because of his beliefs as opposed to his job performance.  The discussion rapidly deteriated into speculation about possible reasons Woods Hole might have terminated Abraham for poor performance.  All of those speculations are idle and beside the point.  Dr. Dembski asked, “Is it legitimate to fire someone because of their beliefs?”  It is simply no answer to that question to say, “Well maybe they fired him for reasons other than his beliefs.”

The purpose of this post is to attempt to focus the discussion back on the issue Dr. Dembski raised, which is a very profound issue in my view.

A copy of Abrham’s federal court complaint is here.   I would like to focus on the following sworn allegations:

16. Plaintiff’s work with Defendants focused on zebrafish developmental biology, toxicology and programmed cell death areas of reseach which required no acceptance, or application of , the theory of evolution as scientific fact.

17. Plaintiff at all times, before his employment began while helping to design and construct the lab and during his employment, performed exemplary work and was often praised and commended by [his supervisor] and other staff members for the quality of his research, commitment and scientific presentations.

20.  Plaintiff assured Defendants that he was willing to analyze aspects of his research using evolutionary concepts if warranted . . . but his sincerely held religous belief did not allow him to accept the theory of evolution as a scientific fact.

30.  Plaintiff was fired even though acceptance of evolution as scientific fact rather than theory (in contravention of his sincerely held religious beliefs) was in no way a bona fide occupational qualification of employment, was not previously mentioned or implied as a requisite for hiring, and was never listed among necessary critera for the advertised position by Defendants.

 I am not saying these sworn allegations are true.  We do not know if Abraham will be able to prove them at trial.  However, in order to focus the discussion on the issue Dr. Dembski raised, all commenters to this thread should assume for the sake of argument that the sworn allegations are in fact true.

The debate question for this post is:  “Assuming paragraphs 16, 17, 20 and 30 of Abraham’s complaint are true, Woods Hole’s termination of Abraham was wrong.”

Comments
Darwinists are unjustified in trying to take credit for the discovery that bacteria develop resistance to drugs. Wow. I did not know that. Who did discover it?poachy
December 9, 2007
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Well stated, Gil. We need to start voting with our feet and eschew all but the medical advances that come from application of the ID paradigm.
No medical advances are the result of NDE theory. If I'm wrong, name one. Everyone accepts microevolution, and Darwinists are unjustified in trying to take credit for the discovery that bacteria develop resistance to drugs.russ
December 9, 2007
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I say "no," assuming that the word "wrong" means more than just "legal." There is already far too much government intrusion in our lives. The more interesting point is the disconnect between what Woods Hole actually does and its pro-evolution culture. This case clearly shows that science can get along just fine without Darwin.allanius
December 9, 2007
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BarryA quoted from the complaint,
20. Plaintiff assured Defendants that he was willing to analyze aspects of his research using evolutionary concepts if warranted . . . but his sincerely held religous (sp) belief did not allow him to accept the theory of evolution as a scientific fact.
Since presumably he would try to do the best job possible no matter what he does, he should have been taken at his word when he said that he was "willing to analyze aspects of his research using evolutionary concepts if warranted." Using evolutionary concepts might have required no more than, say, using an evolutionary tree to depict relationships between different organisms. Was it necessary for him to tell the defendants that "his sincerely held religious belief did not allow him to accept the theory of evolution as a scientific fact" ? Maybe there should be a "don't ask, don't tell" policy in biology labs. Also, it has been suggested that he could hold a research paper "hostage" by refusing to be listed as a co-author if the paper supports evolution theory. IMO being listed as a co-author should not be interpreted as meaning that one agrees with everything in the paper. A lot of scientific papers pay lip service to evolution theory when the theory contributed nothing to the research.Larry Fafarman
December 9, 2007
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And how much faith should we put in any research — no matter how many peer-reviewed papers are published — which presupposes that the blind-watchmaker thesis explains all of biological reality, when there is virtually no evidence that it does, and plenty of evidence that it doesn’t? Well stated, Gil. We need to start voting with our feet and eschew all but the medical advances that come from application of the ID paradigm.poachy
December 8, 2007
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TRoutMac I don't believe the issues is "what the firm asks him to presuppose." It is "you must personally hold to that personal belief" regardless of your ability to objectively make that presupposition and perform and analyze accordingly, whether you believe that presupposition or not. I can make a presupposition of materialistic naturalism and see if we can find a natural law that leads to DNA. However, if I know about codes, and the requirement that material can only be encoded to the degree codons are freely interchangeable, and have evidence of intelligent agents using codes, then when I see DNA with its appearance of encoded information and apparent design, then I may realize that the materialistic assumption ensures that one cannot test for the existence of an intelligent agent, and that those who make such a presupposition cannot meaningfully comment on what they have excluded and cannot test. I can then look at the efforts to find natural law that resulted in DNA and realize the futility of such testing. However, I could still objectively run the tests and analyze the results from a materialistic naturalism presupposition and get paid for it without personally believing that is possible. However, if something does incorporate a code, and it has the appearance of such a code, then to test that hypothesis I logically need to allow for the possibility of an intelligent agent. Correspondingly, I can still logically make that presupposition and test for evidence of intelligent causation, whether I believe such exists or not. Conversely, if I hold to philosophical naturalism that there is no intelligent causation, then I probably would never dream of testing for intelligent causation. However, that would not prevent me from conducting the research and testing for that if told to do so. The problem with Woods Hole is that they appear to have equated "being able to take data, and then analyze the results from an evolutionary viewpoint" with "a personal belief that evolution happened," and consequently have wrongly dismissed Abraham due to that logical fallacy.DLH
December 8, 2007
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And how much faith should we put in any research — no matter how many peer-reviewed papers are published — which presupposes that the blind-watchmaker thesis explains all of biological reality, when there is virtually no evidence that it does, and plenty of evidence that it doesn’t? Pay no attention to this annoying question. From now on job applicants shall be required to sign a doctrinal affirmation of faith. Not the Christian kind. No that will not do. Rather let them pledge their belief that blind forces of a mother nature not created by God generated that first putative cell oh so many billions of years ago through an unknown process about which we can explain virtually nothing. Let them further pledge their belief that evolution was not front loaded and gives no evidence of design or purpose. And finally let them pledge that no research efforts can possibly be interpreted as falsifying central tenets of abiogenesis or a belief that ID lies outside the boundaries of science. No amens are necessary.pk4_paul
December 8, 2007
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Question is, how seriously should anyone take the research done at Woods Hole when it's so obvious that, well, they've already got their minds made up about things, and aren't open to any other possibilities?
This is an excellent point. And how much faith should we put in any research -- no matter how many peer-reviewed papers are published -- which presupposes that the blind-watchmaker thesis explains all of biological reality, when there is virtually no evidence that it does, and plenty of evidence that it doesn't?GilDodgen
December 8, 2007
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Lemme see if I understand this correctly… a scientific research firm has canned a scientist because that scientist will not presuppose what the firm asks him to presuppose. Is that about it? First of all, to directly answer the question asked, my answer is NO. Now, I'm imagining what the classified ad would look like advertising for this position… seems like it might end with this: "Objective scientists need not apply." Question is, how seriously should anyone take the research done at Woods Hole when it's so obvious that, well, they've already got their minds made up about things, and aren't open to any other possibilities? Ironic, isn't it?TRoutMac
December 8, 2007
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PARA 9: You and Dembski raise the question of whether you need to believe in something to work on it (like a doctor who doesn’t believe in germ theory but treats patients with infectious diseases). IMO, this makes doing a good job awfully hard, particularly if the WHOI research culminates in papers that Abraham would join as co-author. If he were just a lab tech, washing beakers, that might be one thing, but to be a post-doc research scientist is another.
Its not that difficult to make up imaginative stories based on facts you doubt. You don't have to believe your own stories to make them comport with with the imaginary facts.russ
December 8, 2007
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Peter Irons replied to me offline. I will reproduce his reply paragraph by paragraph followed by my response. PARA 1: Since I'm also a lawyer, let me respond lawyer-to-lawyer to your comments about the Abraham case. First, as you have conceded, WHOI is a private employer, not a government agency, and thus would be covered (if at all) by Title VII in employment discrimination cases (which would require, of course, exhaustion of administrative remedies with EEOC before filing a federal suit, which Abraham hasn't done. He did file a complaint with the Mass. Commission Against Discrimination, but it was dismissed. So, whatever case he may have in state court, the federal courts don't have jurisdiction (and Goodwin Procter, as WHOI's lawyers, certainly will move to dismiss on this--and other--grounds). But enough about jurisdiction, although you know that's the first big hurdle. RESPONSE: Peter, your jurisdictional argument indicates to me that you don’t seem to have experience in Title VII cases. Like most states, the Mass. Commission has a “work sharing agreement” with the EEOC under which a filing with the Commission satisfies the exhaustion requirement. If Mr. Proctor has any idea what he’s doing he will not waste time and money filing an obviously futile motion to dismiss on jurisdictional grounds. As for the Mass. Commission’s finding, it most probably means that this case is not within the agencies enforcement priorities. That is one reason it will have absolutely zero precedential value in federal court. PARA. 2: I've read Abraham's complaint (as I assume you have) and its allegations are pretty thin. He alleges that he is a "Bible-believing Christian" (as you know, he's a flat-out "six-day" YEC believer). But he nowhere alleges that he was discriminated against by WHOI because he's a Christian (of any denomonation) but rather that he doesn't believe in evolution. I don't understand, by the way, why Abraham wasn't up front about this when he applied for the Woods Hole job. RESPONSE: You don’t seem to have read the complaint very closely. You say he never alleged he was discriminated against because of his Christian beliefs. Paragraph 29 flatly states that Woods Hole discriminated against him on the basis of his Christian beliefs. Are the allegations “thin?” I don’t know. The story is pretty simple. Also, under the “notice pleadings” provisions of the federal rules of civil procedure, they will almost certainly survive a motion to dismiss. This is not to say that I know he will be able to prove his allegations. I don’t know anything about the case other than the bare allegations of the complaint, and of course allegations are just that. I did not know he is a YEC. I’ve never heard of him before this morning. Why was Abraham not upfront about his Christian beliefs when he applied for the job? Surely you are not suggesting that a person’s religious beliefs are remotely relevant to his qualifications as a scientist. I assume Abraham did not mention his YEC beliefs because they had nothing to do with the job he was applying for. PARA 3: You and I will disagree about this, but from the WHOI description of the research project he was hired to work on, belief in evolution (even of zebrafish and their reactions to marine toxins) was a BFOQ for this job. As you said yourself, Barry (a veiled reference to Guillermo Gonzalez, perhaps?), "A physics professor who asserts bad physics is not performing the essential functions of his job (i.e., teaching good physics)." What's good (or bad) for Gonzalez, I submit, is equally good or bad for Abraham. RESPONSE: For our lay readers, “BFOQ” means “bone fide occupational qualification.” Mr. Irons is asserting that a BELIEF that blind watchmaker evolution is a proven fact (as opposed to a willingness to accept it as a scientific theory and perform one’s work within that paradigm) was an essential element of the Woods Hole job. You are correct. What a person believes in their heart of hearts is never a BFOQ for a scientific job. The only qualification that is important was whether Abraham had the credentials necessary to do the job (it is undisputed that he did) and that he PERFORMED the job competently. Assuming he performed the job competently (again, I do not know if he did), the beliefs he harbored in his heart of hearts cannot be the basis for termination (if those beliefs are compelled by a sincerely held religious belief). As for the physics example I gave, I did not have Gonzales in mind. I was responding to an example where someone was teaching the earth is a cube instead of a sphere. If a teacher’s job includes a requirement that he teach the earth is a sphere and instead he teaches the earth is a cube, then he has performed his job poorly and grounds for dismissal exist. Conversely, if the teacher had actually taught that the earth is a sphere, all the while holding a religious belief that the earth is a cube, then there would be no grounds for dismissal. PARA 4 AND 5: So, having read his complaint, here's my take; it's a piece of crap. He's alleging "severe economic loss to date and future economic losses" (to the tune of $500K); "injury to professional reputation and future employment opportunities"; and "mental anguish and emotional distress" (he alleges he had to send his wife back to India after he lost the WHOI job and missed the birth of his first child). You must be a good enough lawyer to realize these are bogus claims. First, he wasn't out of a job long, and he's now an associate biology professor at Liberty University (the late, unlamented Jerry Falwell's fundie school), so we can assume he's got a steady income. That also takes care of the "future employment opportunities" claim, and what proof could he offer that his "professional reputation" has suffered, if he got a full-time university job? He was an "at will" employee at WHOI and had no expectation of long-term employment, beyond the expiration (typically one or two years) of his post-doc position. RESPONSE: All of the issues you bring up in these paragraphs go to damages, not liability. As such, they do not interest me in the slightest. PARA 6: Since I'm a lawyer who looks past the "four corners" of complaints, here are some pragmatic factors. When Abraham filed his MCAD complaint, he was represented by Mike Johnson of Alliance Defense Fund, which is (despite my distaste for its gay-bashing) a firm with half-way decent lawyers. But Johnson bailed out after MCAD dismissed the complaint, probably smelling a loser case. So Abraham is now lawyered by David Gibbs of Christian Law Associates in Seminole, Florida (a sinkhole if there ever was one). Gibbs went down in flames in the Terry Schiavo case, and is, quite frankly, a terrible lawyer. Plus, the case is now before Joyce Alexander, a federal magistrate judge in Boston. She's an African-American, highly experienced civil rights lawyer, placed on the bench by Jimmy Carter, and there's not a snowball's chance in Hades that she won't dismiss this case. RESPONSE: The stuff about the lawyers does not interest me. Your comment about the judge again suggests to me that you do not practice in the federal courts. Magistrate Alexander is, as you say, a MAGISTRATE judge. IOW, she’s an Article I judge, not an Article III judge. As such, she does not have the power to dismiss the case. For our lay readers, roughly speaking, a magistrate judge is kind of an assistant federal judge. The mostly deal with the procedural issues for a case as they make their way to trial. The do not get to actually decided the cases unless both parties agree. PARA 7: You tell people on UD (some with very good questions) that they should assume the highly non-specific allegations in Abraham's complaint are true. Okay, on a 12(b)(6) motion to dismiss (which the Goodwin Procter lawyers will promptly file) judges are required to assume the allegations are true. But what are these allegations? Title VII prohibits discrimination on the basis of "religion." Perhaps Abraham's "Bible-believing Christian" religion (whatever it is) tells him not to believe in evolution. But that's irrelevant in this case. It was his professed lack of belief in evolution that led to his sacking. Devout Christians can (and do) believe in evolution just as much as atheists, and can work at WHOI, as I'm sure some Christians do. RESPONSE: This is truly staggering Mr. Irons. You seem truly to believe that an employer should be able to fire an employee on the basis of his sincerely held religious beliefs even if those beliefs have absolutely no impact on his job performance. Well, I disagree. More importantly, that is clearly not the law. PARA 8: But you can't disbelieve in evolution and fit within the guidelines of Hahn's research objectives, which his website lays out clearly: "The overall objective of research in our laboratory is to understand the biochemical and molecular mechanisms that underlie the interactions of marine animals with their chemical environment. Our general approach is to examine these mechanisms from a comparative/EVOLUTIONARY perspective...." (caps added). RESPONSE: You assert your claim as if it were self evident. It is not. The very fact that Dr. Abraham was able to obtain a Ph.D proves that he is able to work within an evolutionary paradigm even though he does not believe in it. PARA 9: You and Dembski raise the question of whether you need to believe in something to work on it (like a doctor who doesn't believe in germ theory but treats patients with infectious diseases). IMO, this makes doing a good job awfully hard, particularly if the WHOI research culminates in papers that Abraham would join as co-author. If he were just a lab tech, washing beakers, that might be one thing, but to be a post-doc research scientist is another. RESPONSE: Neither I nor Dembski used the “germ theory” example, which is, of course, so absurd that I will not bother responding to it. As for the rest of what you say, in paragraph 17 of the complaint Abraham swears that his work at Woods Hole was praised and commended until this employer found out about his belief. If this is true, it certainly undermines your assertion does it not.BarryA
December 8, 2007
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Barry - I was thinking about the one that goes, "It's a pity when a busload of lawyers goes over a cliff - with one empty seat!" But as I said before, your posts have changed my mind about that empty seat.Gerry Rzeppa
December 8, 2007
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BarryA, I see what you mean- that he was willing to accept a premise for work's sake. However, I was just wondering how much his views differed- as in there might not have even been a problem to start with. But, I do understand that this is a non-issue.bork
December 8, 2007
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The ACLJ also provides the following: Information Letter: Filing a Claim for Religious Discrimination with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission Against a Private or Government Employer
The religious freedom of public sector and most private sector employees is protected by a federal law called "Title VII," 42 U.S.C. §§2000e, et seq. Title VII applies to private employers who have fifteen or more employees on their payroll for at least twenty weeks during a given year. The statute does not limit "employee" to its traditional definitions. See, e.g., Armbruster v. Quinn, 711F.2d 1332, 1342 (6th Cir. 1983) ("employee" includes all who "are susceptible to the kind of unlawful practices that Title VII was intended to remedy"). In addition to Title VII, most states have similar statutory protections in place.
Filing A Complaint With The EEOC [ The EEOC polices the workplace by enforcing Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964... So be sure to document any discriminatory acts that are committed against you in the workplace...] http://www.aclj.org/news/Read.aspx?ID=736DLH
December 8, 2007
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DLH, you seem to have already answered your own question. Abraham's case is a Title VII (statutory) case, not a constitutional case.BarryA
December 8, 2007
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BarryA cited the case against AT&T Broadband referring to the Rutherford Institute: Institute Secures Victory for Religious Employee Fired by AT&T for Refusing to Sign Certificate of Understanding About Homosexuality Gays and Straights in the Work Force: Tolerance for Other Viewpoints ACLJ writes: Christian Rights in the Workplace
The religious freedom of most employees is protected by a federal law called "Title VII".1 In order to be protected by Title VII, an employee must show that:
(1) He holds a sincere religious belief that conflicts with an employment requirement (2) He has informed the employer about the conflict; and (3) He was discharged, disciplined or subjected to discriminatory treatment for failing to comply with the conflicting employment requirement.
Guidelines On Religious Exercise and Religious Expression in the Federal Workplace Encourage readers to review these further to commenting on these issues. In particular to addressing the law involved, vs feelings or preferences. From the Steinberg, Gonzalez, and Abraham cases, it appears that it was the employer creating a hostile workplace, not the employee refusing to do the work.DLH
December 8, 2007
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Come on Darwinists (Barry said tauntingly). If you really think Abraham was disqualified to hold his job merely because of his beliefs and not his performance (which you clearly implied in the other thread), come in here and argue for the negative. I’m waiting.
Well, it looks like everyone moved the party over here while I was out, so I will reiterate the comment I left on the other thread, though more succinctly. To your question Barry, I will not argue against merely holding a belief being actionable. I would suggest that, to the extent that holding that belief causes the individual to act in such a way to negatively disrupts the productivity of the organization, or create a hostile work environment, then it is actionable. But merely holding the belief is not. And that is what Wood Hole will need to show, that Abrahams belief was disruptive to the productivity of the project. Given what I read of the case, it does not appear that Abraham was creating a hostile work environment.specs
December 8, 2007
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BarryA Thanks for the clarification that Woods Hole is not a public entity. However, the Constitution is the supreme law. For Abraham to file a federal suite, must not the relevant law be grounded on the constitution? It cannot be contrary to it. Does this rely on the commerce clause and/or the 14th amendment?DLH
December 8, 2007
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Bork, look at paragraph 20 again. Abraham was willing to accept evolution and work within the evolutionary paradigm even though he ultimately believed it was false. Therefore, it does not matter what the definition of evolution is. Whatever ya got; he was willing to work with it.BarryA
December 8, 2007
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Wow, this is becoming quite a hot topic! But, for some clarification- it says he rejects Evolution - but this could mean macroevolution. Most hard-line YEC have no problem with microevolution- and it doesn't seem evident to me that he had to subscribe to macroevolution to do his work. Evolution is not as simple as 1+1=3 (though 1 man and 1 woman together can equate to 3 :-P), the theory is a lot deeper. Saying he rejects evolution can mean alot, does he reject punctuated equilibrium, a definition of fittest, or simply humans' descent. I mean, if I reject the notion of random in evolution, does this mean I reject evolution? Sure, evolution is a fundamental tenet, but what qualifies as evolution? As far as I am concerned, there is no dispute between science and religion. And, anyone who subscribes to a god is a creationist (eg. god created it) despite the negative connotation. People who push the idea that science and god are mutually exclusive are voicing an opinion, not a scientific fact.bork
December 8, 2007
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DLH, Woods Hole is not a public entity, as getawitness pointed out earlier. Ergo, the constitution is not implicated.BarryA
December 8, 2007
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Gerry, I tell 'em too. What's the difference between a lawyer and a catfish? One's a bottom dwelling scum sucker, and the other's a fish.BarryA
December 8, 2007
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I've never had much love for attorneys, Barry, but you make me want to take back some of those lawyer jokes I've told over the years. God bless you.Gerry Rzeppa
December 8, 2007
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For reference, the Constitution preserves these unalienable rights: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." 1st Amendment, US Constitution Requiring a belief in evolution would constitute "an establishment of religion" See also Legal Annotations DLH
December 8, 2007
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BarryA, thanks for that. I'm not a legal scholar by any means. I just have some relatives who went to law school. I'm like a prisoner who has access to a law library and files briefs from his cell. :-) Out of curiosity, where would John Rawls fall with respect to legal realism? His theory of justice isn't really objective, but it seems to suggest something more or less universal.getawitness
December 8, 2007
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Getawitness writes: “I think it’s a good thing to separate law from morality to this extent: people find lots of things immoral that should not be illegal, simply because of the diversity of views in this country. I’m very glad, for example, that homosexuality and miscegenation are no longer illegal, though many people might still find both immoral.” You misunderstand the tenets of legal realism (the school Holmes founded). The legal realist would say there is no such thing as morality (at least in the sense of an objective standard of write or wrong) against which we can measure our legal precepts. That is different from asserting that everything that is immoral should also be illegal. I don’t know anyone who believes that.BarryA
December 8, 2007
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jjcassidy writes: “By the way Barry, postmodern thinking isn’t so bad, you just have to apply consistency to the principles that you use, which I don’t find to be generally true of evolutionocrats.” A consistent postmodernist jj??? Isn’t that a contradiction in terms?BarryA
December 8, 2007
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I'm a big fan of diversity of viewpoints. I've got no problem with Kurt Wise, John Baumgardner, and that guy from Rhode Island whose name I forget (he was the subject of a NYT article earlier this year, and he's now at Liberty U, where you can certainly get fired for your beliefs). BarryA, I didn't know that about Holmes. Thanks; that's an interesting bit of history. The lawyers I know who went through that process found it very helpful in sharpening their ability to see the merits of a case on the law. I don't think they found it undermined their morality. There are pragmatic benefits to that training. For example, I bet it was someone who was appalled by such an example who got the first Good Samaritan law passed. (IIRC, a common hypothetical case used to be: Someone witnesses a person drowning. Can that person be arrested? And the answer was No. Good Samaritan laws change the answer.) Also, the training helps you make good decisions. If you take cases based on morality rather than legal merit, you'll lose a lot of cases. I think it's a good thing to separate law from morality to this extent: people find lots of things immoral that should not be illegal, simply because of the diversity of views in this country. I'm very glad, for example, that homosexuality and miscegenation are no longer illegal, though many people might still find both immoral.getawitness
December 8, 2007
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Getawitness “As BarryA knows, first-year law students are regularly confronted with morally outrageous cases that are not legally actionable.” Finally getawitness and I agree on something. That is part of the indoctrination (I use that word instead of “education” advisedly) one gets in law school. One wag once said that the closest American analogue to a Maoist thought reform camp is the first year of law school. It might surprise you, getawitness, that the phenomenon to which you refer has its roots in Darwinism. Around the turn of the 20th century, Oliver Wendell Holmes touched off a revolution in American law when he decided to recast it on Darwinian principles. Part of that process was to get rid of the antiquated notion that law is based on an objective morality. That’s why law schools attempt to create a divide in their students’ minds between morality and law. I am not sure they are ever totally successful. I appear to have been immune; at any rate I was able to resist the brainwashing. “If we limit the facts to one person’s narrative . . .” Your postmodernism is showing. To your larger point, pk4_paul is right again. From their comments to the prior post I got the distinct impression that the Darwinists were willing to come on here and defend the negative. I guess not. I suspect the reason for this is that I’ve cut off their line of retreat. It’s easy to argue for a proposition if, when it is shown to be morally reprehensible, you can hide behind an assertion that you understood the facts differently. Come on Darwinists (Barry said tauntingly). If you really think Abraham was disqualified to hold his job merely because of his beliefs and not his performance (which you clearly implied in the other thread), come in here and argue for the negative. I’m waiting.BarryA
December 8, 2007
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If this holds then it should be OK to fire each and every atheist teaching religious studies.Joseph
December 8, 2007
December
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12:41 PM
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