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Are Dreams Incompatible With Materialism?

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Asks nkendall. All that follows is his:

Okay lets see what I can come up with. This is just one of several disproofs of materialism that I have tried out on atheist websites. Never once had anyone lay of glove on it:

DREAM SEQUENCES – A SIMPLE DISPROOF OF MATERIALISM
Here is a simple disproof of materialism that everyone can understand; consider dream sequences:

ASSUMPTIONS:
1. Dreams always involve novel (NEW) content – they are not rehashings or restructuring of various memories; although the topics are in the context of one’s life experiences.
2. Dreams are high definition imagery.
3. Dreams are real imagery, i.e. you are unaware or unable to distinguish the dream imagery when it is going on from real visual imagery during waking consciousness.
4. Dreams contain complex specified information, each image element (analogous to a pixel in HDTV) WITHIN an imagery frame in a dream has to be what it is for the imagery to be coherent and correlated. And each image element (pixel) has to be what it is for the imagery to be coherent and correlated dynamically ACROSS frames. I.e. each image element is highly constrained–highly specific.

PROBLEM WITH MATERIAL EXPLANATIONS
Materialism posits bottom-up causation and therefore consciousness, mental thoughts are produced by the components of the brain. Yet each of the many components that would have to be involved to give rise to a dream image, would be subject to an antecedent chain of causation which would not be dictated by the mental events (e.g. dream imagery) in any way. And all these components would have to be in sync with one another.

CALCULATION OF PROBABILITIES
Calculating probabilities is an endeavor in searching through large space. I will be charitable to materialism with each assumption in the calculation.
Calculate the superset of the overall search space:
– Determine the number of brain components involved.
– Determine the number of alternative states that the brain components could be in.
– Determine the refresh rate or frame rate of the dream imagery.
– Determine the number of image frames in the dream.
Example:
Let’s say a neuron synapse is our “brain component” and it could be either firing or not, i.e. binary.
Let’s say that there would have to be 10 million brain components (synapses firing or not) to produce each imagery frame in the dream.
Let’s say a 5 second dream sequence has 20 image frames per second.
So: 2^10,000,000 * (20 * 5) = A prohibitively large number that computers cannot even represent. This is the super set of possible brain states within which our single precise set of brain states necessary to cause our coherent, correlated dream imagery. In effect, the brain would have to create a novel mini movie instantaneously. This is flat out impossible without some high level controlling and creative entity, i.e. immaterial mind. Probabilities are much poorer than universal probability bound: 10^150.

OTHER INTRACTABLE PROBLEMS NOT INCLUDED
Note that in this exercise I am waving away a whole host of intractable difficulties and just focusing on what can be quantitatively demonstrated. For example I am waving away the following:

The fact that dreams are imagery that is not initiated by vision.
The dialog that goes along with dreams.
The thoughts, abstract thoughts, that go along with a dream.
That you seem to be able to focus your attention to a specific point in the dream imagery.
The difficulty with how the brain could identify and sequester the precise set of brain components involved in producing the dream imagery.
That the brain components’ events would have to be synchronized.
The difficulty with how the brain even registers imagery and thoughts in one’s consciousness.

Comments
bpragmatic, So dreams are no laughing "matter"? (lol)sergmendes
April 18, 2015
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NickMatzke_UDApril 18, 2015 at 5:41 pm Best. UD. post. evah. What a joke Matzke, as if you have anything to substantiate your vast array of conjecture.bpragmatic
April 18, 2015
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As an opponent of classical dogmatic materialism (CDM), I still fail to see this as a refutation. It merely points out the lack of practicality and pragmatism to CDM, not its objective truth or lack thereof. Assumption 1 and 3 are not generally accepted: 1.) some dreams are clearly odd amalgamations of previous imagery; others are not CLEARly based on previous experiences, but it in no way means they aren't the surreal compilation of previous imagery 3.) lucid dreaming - not only CAN dreams be distinguished from reality, but it is even possible to do so during them; and this skill is trainable to the point where highly refined practitioners can do conscious (maybe "intentional" is the accurate word given the "unconscious" state of mind) creative work while asleep The refutation of CDM is simply that concepts explain all, and thus "mind", as nebulous and intractable as it may be, is always more fundamental than quarks and bosons. Universe contains material. Sure. But intention, intellect, forethought, design and mind direct subatomic particles to produce chemistry, to produce biology, to produce psyche, which is not an illusion of intent, intellect, forethought, design and mind. We keep trying to find the lynchpin to unlock how non-life becomes life; and angry anti-theists side step the issue defining them as the same and telling us all that we're seeing an illusion. Suppose for a second it is all the same. Then why wouldn't mind, design, intention, forethought and intellect be a fundamental component of matter or the exact same thing as matter? Hint: you will win no converts by screeching at your audience that they're constantly more deluded than you, you same faulty, flawed imperfect humans, you.jw777
April 18, 2015
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A few related notes as to 'dreams': In our waking state different parts of the brain are 'instantaneously' cohered in a way that defies explanation from classical models:
Quantum Entangled Consciousness - Life After Death - Stuart Hameroff - video https://vimeo.com/39982578 ,,, zero time lag neuronal synchrony despite long conduction delays - 2008 Excerpt: Multielectrode recordings have revealed zero time lag synchronization among remote cerebral cortical areas. However, the axonal conduction delays among such distant regions can amount to several tens of milliseconds. It is still unclear which mechanism is giving rise to isochronous discharge of widely distributed neurons, despite such latencies,,, Remarkably, synchrony of neuronal activity is not limited to short-range interactions within a cortical patch. Interareal synchronization across cortical regions including interhemispheric areas has been observed in several tasks (7, 9, 11–14).,,, Beyond its functional relevance, the zero time lag synchrony among such distant neuronal ensembles must be established by mechanisms that are able to compensate for the delays involved in the neuronal communication. Latencies in conducting nerve impulses down axonal processes can amount to delays of several tens of milliseconds between the generation of a spike in a presynaptic cell and the elicitation of a postsynaptic potential (16). The question is how, despite such temporal delays, the reciprocal interactions between two brain regions can lead to the associated neural populations to fire in unison (i.e. zero time lag).,,, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2575223/ Nonlocal mechanism for cluster synchronization in neural circuits – 2011 Excerpt: The findings,,, call for reexamining sources of correlated activity in cortex,,, http://arxiv.org/abs/1103.3634
Moreover, when we sleep the coherence displayed by the waking brain seems to disappear. At the 18:00 minute mark to about the 22:15 minute mark of the following video, an interesting experiment is highlighted on the sleeping brain. The experiment shows a fairly profound difference in the way the brain ‘shares information’ between different parts of the brain in its sleeping state compared to how the brain ‘shares information’ during its waking state. In the sleeping state, the brain shares much less information with different parts of the brain than the brain does during its waking state.
Through The Wormhole – Morgan Freeman – Life After Death – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9kXrsWUcQFQ#t=1069
Also of interest to 'dreams': Some researchers tried to prove that Near Death Experiences (NDEs) were only hallucinations, i.e. dreams. The researchers set up a questionnaire that they thought would reliably tell them whether the memories a person who had had of a Near Death Experience were really real or merely imaginary. They were completely surprised by the results of their tests. The memories of the experiences were 'even more real than real' according to the researchers.
'Afterlife' feels 'even more real than real,' researcher says - Wed April 10, 2013 Excerpt: "If you use this questionnaire ... if the memory is real, it's richer, and if the memory is recent, it's richer," he said. The coma scientists weren't expecting what the tests revealed. "To our surprise, NDEs were much richer than any imagined event or any real event of these coma survivors," Laureys reported. The memories of these experiences beat all other memories, hands down, for their vivid sense of reality. "The difference was so vast," he said with a sense of astonishment. Even if the patient had the experience a long time ago, its memory was as rich "as though it was yesterday," Laureys said. http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/09/health/belgium-near-death-experiences/ A Doctor's Near Death Experience Inspires a New Life - video Quote: "It's not like a dream. It's like the world we are living in is a dream and it's kind of like waking up from that." Dr. Magrisso http://www.nbcchicago.com/on-air/as-seen-on/A-Doctor--186331791.html
The researchers's results showing NDEs to be 'even more real than real' should not be surprising for Theists since Theists hold that the Mind of God is the source of reality, and since Theists also hold that when we die our souls can see, hear, and feel, God much clearly than we do in our present temporal bodies. Verse and Music:
Psalm 17:15 As for me, I shall behold Your face in righteousness; I will be satisfied with Your likeness when I awake. Wake Me O Lord! - Inspirational Poem - music video Evanescence - Bring Me To Life - Lyric: ‘Only You are the living among the dead” http://vimeo.com/38692431
supplemental notes: More than once I've heard experts in Quantum Mechanics refer to material reality as an illusion:
Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger by Richard Conn Henry - Physics Professor - John Hopkins University Excerpt: Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the "illusion" of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism (solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist). (Dr. Henry's referenced experiment and paper - “An experimental test of non-local realism” by S. Gröblacher et. al., Nature 446, 871, April 2007 - “To be or not to be local” by Alain Aspect, Nature 446, 866, April 2007 (Leggett's Inequality: Violated, as of 2011, to 120 standard deviations) http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/aspect.html
The Theistic belief that consciousness is primary to reality and material is 'illusory' to reality suffers no shortage of substantiating evidence from quantum mechanics:
A Short Survey Of Quantum Mechanics and Consciousness Except:, due to advances in quantum mechanics, the argument for God from consciousness can now be framed like this: 1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities, Quantum Zeno effect) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uLcJUgLm1vwFyjwcbwuYP0bK6k8mXy-of990HudzduI/edit
bornagain77
April 18, 2015
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ppolish:
Massless particles are incompatible with Materialism 2.0.
I think you've outdone nkendall. That's the cleanest debunking of materialism I've seen to date.daveS
April 18, 2015
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Massless particles are incompatible with Materialism 2.0. See the light, Seversky. Move towards the Light:)ppolish
April 18, 2015
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If you have a better explanation than Materialism 2.0 then let's hear it.Seversky
April 18, 2015
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Dreams are dependent on motion - more specifically rotation. Motion is immaterial btw. Find me a planet with life and you'll find me a planet with rotation. Or life that moves to the dark side to sleep. Or heavy drapes. To sleep. To dream.ppolish
April 18, 2015
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Yes, incompatible with materialism. But seriously, what isn't. Although dreams are very poorly understood from a scientific standpoint. Prophetic Dreams are also open to interpretation.ppolish
April 18, 2015
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"This is flat out impossible without some high level controlling and creative entity, i.e. immaterial mind." If animals have dreams, then do they also have immaterial minds?sergmendes
April 18, 2015
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This is a joke, right?eigenstate
April 18, 2015
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Best. UD. post. evah.NickMatzke_UD
April 18, 2015
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How do dreams work in an immaterial world?velikovskys
April 18, 2015
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