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Are Some of Our Opponents in the Grip of a “Domineering Parasitical Ideology”?

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[It] is now obvious that the root is we are dealing with a domineering parasitical ideology in the course of destroying its host; through its inherent undermining of responsible rational freedom, the foundation of a sound life of the mind. Immediately, science, science education, the media and policy are being eaten out from within.

KF

Indeed.  The immediate context of KF’s observation is the seeming inability of the Darwinists to understand plain English over the past few days.  Allow me to establish some context.  In a post over at his Sandwalk blog Larry Moran quoted me when I wrote:

For years Darwinists touted “junk DNA” as not just any evidence but powerful, practically irrefutable evidence for the Darwinian hypothesis. ID proponents disagreed and argued that the evidence would ultimately demonstrate function.  Not only did both hypotheses make testable predictions, the Darwinist prediction turned out to be false and the ID prediction turned out to be confirmed.

He then wrote:

But, as most Sandwalk readers know, nobody predicted junk DNA, certainly not Darwinists.

I then provided quotations from two famous Darwinists (Collins and Coyne) using the very word “prediction”:

Darwin’s theory predicts that mutations that do not affect function, (namely, those located in “junk DNA” ) will accumulate steadily over time. Mutations in the coding region of genes, however, are expected to be observed less frequently, and only a rare such event will provide a selective advantage and be retained during the evolutionary process.  That is exactly what is observed.

 

From this we can make a prediction. We expect to find, in the genomes of many species, silenced, or ‘dead,’ genes: genes that once were useful but re no longer intact or expressed.

I also linked to Casey Luskin’s excellent article an ENV showing several more such statements.  There cannot be the slightest doubt that many famous Darwinists said the theory predicts junk DNA.

“But those statements cannot possibly be predictions, because they came after junk DNA was discovered,” the Darwinists shout.  One in particular (lutesuite) has started beating a drum calling for a retraction of my claim.  We have two choices here:

  1. Agree with Moran and lutesuite. But this would require us to believe Collins and Coyne are too stupid to understand what the word “prediction” means.
  1. Disagree with Moran and lutesuite. This would require us to believe that Collins and Coyne were using the word “prediction” in a different sense than “to forecast in advance.”

I vote for (2).  Is there a sense of the word “prediction” that means something other than “to forecast in advance”?  It turns out there is.  Collins and Coyne are not stupid.  Instead, they are engaging in the commonplace act of using the term “prediction” in the sense of “retrodiction” or “postdiction”.  What is that?  Wikipedia explains:

Retrodiction (or postdiction . . .) is the act of making a “prediction” about the past.

My dictionary agrees.

There you have it.  The mystery is solved.  Collins and Coyne are not so stupid that they don’t know the meaning of the word “prediction.”  Moran and lutesuite are simply wrong when they suggest they are.  A prediction does not have to be temporally prior to that which is predicted if the word is used in the sense of a retrodiction.

What does all of this have to do with KF’s observation?  Everything.  Sadly, both Moran and lutesuite are hosting a domineering parasitical ideology that is undermining their responsible rational freedom and destroying their capacity to think clearly.

Consider this.  It really is the case that for Moran and lutesuite to be correct, it must also be the case that two of the most famous scientists in the world are so staggeringly stupid that they don’t know what the word “predict” means.  I do not always agree with Collins and Coyne, but it really is a little much for Moran and lutesuite to imply they are imbeciles.

The only rational conclusion is that Moran and lutesuite are wrong, and not only are they wrong, they are wrong about a very simple matter that would take only two seconds of rational thought to sort out.

But two seconds is a long time, and rational thought is hard when one is in the grip of a domineering parasitical ideology.

Comments
Zachriel Are you more than chemistry?Andre
November 15, 2015
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Morals are from emotions. .... Whahahahahahahahahaha matarialists say the darnest things!Andre
November 15, 2015
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Information and entropy – top-down or bottom-up development in living systems? A.C. McINTOSH Excerpt: This paper highlights the distinctive and non-material nature of information and its relationship with matter, energy and natural forces. It is proposed in conclusion that it is the non-material information (transcendent to the matter and energy) that is actually itself constraining the local thermodynamics to be in ordered disequilibrium and with specified raised free energy levels necessary for the molecular and cellular machinery to operate. http://journals.witpress.com/paperinfo.asp?pid=420 Information and Thermodynamics in Living Systems - Andy C. McIntosh - 2013 Excerpt: ,,, information is in fact non-material and that the coded information systems (such as, but not restricted to the coding of DNA in all living systems) is not defined at all by the biochemistry or physics of the molecules used to store the data. Rather than matter and energy defining the information sitting on the polymers of life, this approach posits that the reverse is in fact the case. Information has its definition outside the matter and energy on which it sits, and furthermore constrains it to operate in a highly non-equilibrium thermodynamic environment. This proposal resolves the thermodynamic issues and invokes the correct paradigm for understanding the vital area of thermodynamic/organisational interactions, which despite the efforts from alternative paradigms has not given a satisfactory explanation of the way information in systems operates.,,, http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/abs/10.1142/9789814508728_0008 Functional Information and Entropy in living systems - Andy McIntosh Excerpt: There has to be previously written information or order (often termed “teleonomy”) for passive, non-living chemicals to respond and become active. Thus the following summary statement applies to all known systems: Energy + Information equals Locally reduced entropy (Increase of order) (or teleonomy) with the corollary: Matter and Energy alone does not equal a Decrease in Entropy http://www.heveliusforum.org/Artykuly/Func_Information.pdf
bornagain
November 15, 2015
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bornagain: The main point of the post was to show your blatant atheistic bias in your quote. The "demons" are the experimenters themselves. bornagain: (and the secondary point of the post was to show, via Maxwell’s Demon, that information is now known to have a ‘thermodynamic content’) That's not new, of course. Zachriel: we have strong evidence that the primordial atmosphere and oceans were, indeed, much different than today Jack Jones: No Really? You're saying that we don't have evidence that the Earth wasn't always like it is today? Jack Jones: Well you are welcome to believe that conditions were so different that the laws of chemistry were inoperable. Got it. You will simply reword claims to mean something different. While the laws of chemistry are consistent, conditions vary.Zachriel
November 15, 2015
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"That’s correct. And we have strong evidence that the primordial atmosphere and oceans were, indeed, much different than today." No, what we have is confirmed evidence is that for how nature operates, life only comes from previous life. "huh? Why would you say that? Without gravity there would be no planetary formation. " But you are holding to conditions being so different that processes in the present are inoperable in the past, the conundrum is for you. "While the laws of chemistry are consistent, conditions vary." Well you are welcome to believe that conditions were so different that the laws of chemistry were inoperable. When life cannot arise spontaneously in nature in the present then you are welcome to believe that the laws of chemistry were suspended in some imaginary hostile environment for life arising spontaneously. You have stepped outside of what is empirically known for how nature operates. You are not consistent.Jack Jones
November 15, 2015
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as to: "Reading further, “The experiment did not violate the second law of thermodynamics because energy was consumed in the experiment by the apparatus used”" So? Who cares? I never said, nor implied, that the second law was violated. That certainly was not the point of the post. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/are-some-of-our-opponents-in-the-grip-of-a-domineering-parasitical-ideology/#comment-588139 The main point of the post was to show your blatant atheistic bias in your quote. (and the secondary point of the post was to show, via Maxwell's Demon, that information is now known to have a 'thermodynamic content') But seeing as admitting that you are wrong in your a priori atheistic biases just ain't ever in your cards, I guess debating an imaginary strawman of your own making is your next best option. I'll let you and your strawman have at it. I'm out of here. Of note to kf about 'top down':
MAXWELL AND FARADAY - with audio Excerpt: Maxwell set the theoretical foundations of electric field theory in 1873. He says at the outset of his treatise, “Before I began the study of electricity I resolved to read no mathematics on the subject until I had first read [Faraday].” That’s an innocent enough remark until you follow it through. You see, Faraday’s pioneering work had made little sense to mathematicians. So Maxwell, a great mathematician himself, systematically went back and climbed inside Faraday’s head. There he found a great garden of delights. Here’s what he said about the experience: I found that … Faraday’s methods … begin with the whole and arrive at the parts by analysis, while the ordinary mathematical methods were founded on the principle of beginning with the parts and building up the whole by synthesis. http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi905.htm
bornagain
November 15, 2015
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mohammadnursyamsu: It is my opinion that Zachriel and Seversky have no emotions. Without passion, there is no action. Reason is a slave to the passions.Zachriel
November 15, 2015
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Andre: Can you answer the question? So chemistry obeys the laws of nature then and does not concern with truth? The original answer was about right. You're mixing apples and oranges.Zachriel
November 15, 2015
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mohammadnursyamsu @ 283
It is my opinion that Zachriel and Seversky have no emotions.
I cannot speak for Zachriel but I have both emotions and reason. Much as I once wanted to be dispassionate and objective, like Star Trek’s Mr Spock, I learnt that power of human intelligence is based in the close integration of both emotions and reason. Emotions like curiosity are what drive us to investigate the world around us. Reason is one of the tools we use to model and explain what we are trying to understand. The human enterprise of science would not be as successful as it is if either component were missing.
That’s how that works, it is a matter of opinion what the agency of decisions is, and it is logically valid to choose the answer that there is nothing there but emptiness.
I don’t believe there is nothing but emptiness but neither do I find what the world’s religions offer to fill the emptiness to be adequate. There are deep mysteries concerning the origins of the Universe and the origins of life. We simply don’t know what the answers are yet. “I don’t know” may not be a satisfying answer but for the moment it’s the best we have.
Whether such an answer is morally acceptable is a different issue.
Morals are ultimately grounded in emotions such as empathy. Most of us do not harm others because we know what it is like to suffer harm and would not want to inflict that on others. Most of us want to survive and live as long and as happy a life in this world as possible. We understand that others feel the same so try not to kill people, at least, not without good reason. That is how any moral code worth a damn must work.Seversky
November 15, 2015
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Zachriel Can you answer the question? You are just chemistry right?Andre
November 15, 2015
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Andre: So chemistry obeys the laws of nature then and does not concern with truth? Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.Zachriel
November 15, 2015
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asauber: that’s some great science there Actually, it's key to rebutting Jack Jones's point. He is claiming that abiogenesis requires that the laws of chemistry be different, rather than just the conditions being different.Zachriel
November 15, 2015
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conditions vary
Wow, that's some great science there, Zachy. All that educatin' sure has paid off, eh? Andrewasauber
November 15, 2015
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Zachriel So chemistry obeys the laws of nature then and does not concern with truth?Andre
November 15, 2015
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Jack Jones: they imagine that conditions were so different that processes in the present were inoperable in the past. That's correct. And we have strong evidence that the primordial atmosphere and oceans were, indeed, much different than today. Jack Jones: Was gravity suspended back then? Huh? Why would you say that? Without gravity there would be no planetary formation. Jack Jones: Now you are most welcome to believe processes in nature are consistent through time and hold the opposite position that processes like how chemistry operates is not consistent and operable through time. While the laws of chemistry are consistent, conditions vary.Zachriel
November 15, 2015
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"The law of biogenesis is just an observation. Abiogenetic theories suppose conditions were quite different during the hypothesized period of abiogenesis." Oh sure they do zach, they imagine that conditions were so different that processes in the present were inoperable in the past. If conditions were so different then how did the rain fall for the primordial soup which you have faith life originated from? Was gravity suspended back then? How did those mutations that you place so much faith in, Mutate those earlier animals if conditions were so different that processes in the present were inoperable? Evolutionists tell us that processes in the present go back to early times but when it does not suit them, then they say processes are not consistent in time and did not happen. "When scientists investigate possible abiogenesis in plausible prebiotic conditions" There are no scientists when it comes to the idea of life originating spontaneously in nature, there s lots of intelligence and manipulation. " However, no one has a complete theory of abiogenesis as yet." We have a law of biogenesis that shows life cannot originate spontaneously in nature. Now you are most welcome to believe processes in nature are consistent through time and hold the opposite position that processes like how chemistry operates is not consistent and operable through time. You are most welcome to hold on to that contradictory position.Jack Jones
November 15, 2015
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Jack Jones: Known chemistry and the law of biogenesis already demonstrates that life could not have originated spontaneously in nature. The law of biogenesis is just an observation. Abiogenetic theories suppose conditions were quite different during the hypothesized period of abiogenesis. Jack Jones: I am here arguing that scientists working in the lab using intelligence and design is not life originating spontaneously in nature. When scientists investigate possible abiogenesis in plausible prebiotic conditions, then that is a valid test of abiogenetic theory. However, no one has a complete theory of abiogenesis as yet.Zachriel
November 15, 2015
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Comment under mine and responding to my comment says "Joe" My name is not Joe, My name is Jack. That is two posts you have called me Joe on now, is there something about that name that you have a fetish for? "even if humans create a living cell in a lab, this is not evidence one way or the other for evolution or for ID. It will only prove that humans can make life." What is going on in the lab is showing humans working to artificially create life as life cannot originate spontaneously from non living matter. Known chemistry and the law of biogenesis already demonstrates that life could not have originated spontaneously in nature. "But I must also point out that they are not attempting to design it from scratch. Most of the materials they are using come from existing organisms. It would be analogous to putting a Porsche engine in a VW Beetle." So, it will still be design and nothing to do with your faith of life originating in nature spontaneously. "But I think that your argument is like having your cake and eating it to. I have read many ID proponents argue that evolution can’t be true because scientists have never been able to create life in a lab." I speak for myself. "And here you are arguing that humans creating life is evidence for the ID position." I am here arguing that scientists working in the lab using intelligence and design is not life originating spontaneously in nature. The law of biogenesis and known chemistry already destroy your faith in life originating spontaneously in nature.Jack Jones
November 15, 2015
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bornagain: "Scientists in Japan are the first to have succeeded in converting information into free energy in an experiment that verifies the “Maxwell demon” thought experiment devised in 1867 " Reading further, "The experiment did not violate the second law of thermodynamics because energy was consumed in the experiment by the apparatus used"Zachriel
November 15, 2015
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as to "Sign on Door leading to Science Lab: Absolutely *NO* Demons Beyond This Point."
Cavendish Laboratory The first Professor, James Clerk Maxwell, was appointed before the Laboratory was built. He travelled to laboratories in Glasgow and Oxford before making suggestions about the design to the architect, W.M. Fawcett. Construction began at the site in Free School Lane when Loveday of Kibworth's tender of £8,450 was accepted on 12th March 1872…. The Laboratory for Experimental Physics was opened on 16th June 1874. Nine days later the recently founded journal 'Nature' published a full description of the new laboratory, noting the inscription on the doors, 'Magna opera Domini exquisita in omnes voluntates ejus', meaning 'The works of the Lord are great, sought out of all them that have pleasure therein'. http://www-outreach.phy.cam.ac.uk/camphy/laboratory/laboratory4_1.htm Maxwell's demon demonstration (knowledge of a particle's position) turns information into energy - November 2010 Excerpt: Scientists in Japan are the first to have succeeded in converting information into free energy in an experiment that verifies the "Maxwell demon" thought experiment devised in 1867.,,, In Maxwell’s thought experiment the demon creates a temperature difference simply from information about the gas molecule temperatures and without transferring any energy directly to them.,,, Until now, demonstrating the conversion of information to energy has been elusive, but University of Tokyo physicist Masaki Sano and colleagues have succeeded in demonstrating it in a nano-scale experiment. In a paper published in Nature Physics they describe how they coaxed a Brownian particle to travel upwards on a "spiral-staircase-like" potential energy created by an electric field solely on the basis of information on its location. As the particle traveled up the staircase it gained energy from moving to an area of higher potential, and the team was able to measure precisely how much energy had been converted from information. http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-maxwell-demon-energy.html Demonic device converts information to energy - 2010 Excerpt: "This is a beautiful experimental demonstration that information has a thermodynamic content," says Christopher Jarzynski, a statistical chemist at the University of Maryland in College Park. In 1997, Jarzynski formulated an equation to define the amount of energy that could theoretically be converted from a unit of information2; the work by Sano and his team has now confirmed this equation. "This tells us something new about how the laws of thermodynamics work on the microscopic scale," says Jarzynski. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=demonic-device-converts-inform MOVING ‘FAR FROM EQUILIBRIUM’ IN A PREBIOTIC ENVIRONMENT: The role of Maxwell’s Demon in life origin - DAVID L. ABEL Abstract: Can we falsify the following null hypothesis? “A kinetic energy potential cannot be generated by Maxwell’s Demon from an ideal gas equilibrium without purposeful choices of when to open and close the partition’s trap door.” If we can falsify this null hypothesis with an observable naturalistic mechanism, we have moved a long way towards modeling the spontaneous molecular evolution of life. Falsification is essential to discount teleology. But life requires a particular version of “far from equilibrium” that explains formal organization, not just physicodynamic self-ordering as seen in Prigogine’s dissipative structures. Life is controlled and regulated, not just constrained. Life follows arbitrary rules of behavior, not just invariant physical laws. To explain life’s origin and regulation naturalistically, we must first explain the more fundamental question, “How can hotter, faster moving, ideal gas molecules be dichotomized from cooler, slower moving, ideal gas molecules without the Demon’s choice contingency operating the trap door?” https://www.academia.edu/9963341/MOVING_FAR_FROM_EQUILIBRIUM_IN_A_PREBIOTIC_ENVIRONMENT_The_role_of_Maxwell_s_Demon_in_life_origin
bornagain
November 15, 2015
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@Zachriel It is my opinion that Zachriel and Seversky have no emotions. That's how that works, it is a matter of opinion what the agency of decisions is, and it is logically valid to choose the answer that there is nothing there but emptiness. Whether such an answer is morally acceptable is a different issue.mohammadnursyamsu
November 15, 2015
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Joe, even if humans create a living cell in a lab, this is not evidence one way or the other for evolution or for ID. It will only prove that humans can make life. But I must also point out that they are not attempting to design it from scratch. Most of the materials they are using come from existing organisms. It would be analogous to putting a Porsche engine in a VW Beetle. But I think that your argument is like having your cake and eating it to. I have read many ID proponents argue that evolution can't be true because scientists have never been able to create life in a lab. And here you are arguing that humans creating life is evidence for the ID position.brian douglas
November 15, 2015
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"Sign on Door leading to Science Lab: Absolutely *NO* Demons Beyond This Point." Of course those scientists who are trying to bring a living organism into being through design are not demons, we certainly know there is Absolutely *NO* Chance Beyond This Point but lots of intelligence and design. They are not waiting around for a living organism to arise spontaneously in nature because it just ain't gonna happen. Now....When it is taking so much human intelligence and design in order to create a living organism, then it is reasonable to believe that the Creator that Originated life was of greater intelligence and that it didn't originate by chance.Jack Jones
November 15, 2015
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mohammadnursyamsu: You need to ... You neglected to respond to our argument, or provide an argument of your own. Mung: Even a large community of Zachriels communicating via their hive mind can’t tell the difference between natural and supernatural. Rather, a methodological definition of science avoids the necessity of making such distinctions. If a claim has empirical entailments, then it can be subject to scientific investigation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vntAEVjPBzQ - Sign on Door leading to Science Lab: Absolutely *NO* Demons Beyond This Point.Zachriel
November 15, 2015
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Box, I think bottom up and top down are a bit vague, but would highlight that intent is an empirically relevant causal factor. As in my intent to respond to you. That is backed up by intelligently directed configuration towards that goal, and this comment results. It manifests FSCO/I which per inductive and analytical analysis is a strong sign of design as cause as opposed to blind chance and/or mechanical necessity. Those who are trying to get it taken as established that blind chance and mechanical necessity are causally adequate credible sources of FSCO/I, need to show that. There are trillions of cases of design causing FSCO/I, but the blind needle in haystack search strategy cannot show such observable success. But I am now convinced the matter will have to be resolved at the level of highlighting the ideological lockout of design and its unreasonableness, multiplied by the self-referentially incoherent nature of evolutionary materialist scientism. Which means that from the outset that system is self-refuting. KFkairosfocus
November 15, 2015
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Kairosfocus: I have always pointed out that for scientific purposes and design inferences, the appropriate contrast was long since drawn by Plato: natural (= blind chance plus mechanical necessity) vs the ART-ificial.
KF, do you accept the equation of Plato's contrast with 'bottom-up' vs 'top-down' explanation?Box
November 15, 2015
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Mung (Attn, Z): I have always pointed out that for scientific purposes and design inferences, the appropriate contrast was long since drawn by Plato: natural (= blind chance plus mechanical necessity) vs the ART-ificial. The signs of intelligently directed configuration AKA design, can be reasonably empirically investigated. This would allow us to investigate whether design was a material causal process, once one is open to the possibility of design. Then, discussions may be further pursued, as to candidate designers and most likely suspect. Beyond, the issue as to ontological status may be contemplated; likely at worldview level in the case of cosmological origins. I suspect a lot of objectors have been believing their own propaganda and have erroneously equated design with designer and designer with supernatural designer, especially God. The obvious intensity of anti-theistic polarisation then warps further thought. I wonder whether it has registered that the work of Venter et al makes it clear that a molecular nanotech lab is a reasonable candidate designer relevant to cell based life. Indeed, at initial level, intelligent design of life is already a fact. KF PS: I wonder if it has registered with such objectors that in order for the miraculous to stand out as a sign pointing beyond the mundane, ordinary order of things, it has to be strikingly exceptional? That is, the existence of miracles is predicated on there being a regular, ordinary course of events shaped by intelligible lawlike regularities? Which is exactly where modern science began.kairosfocus
November 15, 2015
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Zachriel:
Furthermore, our position is that the distinction between natural and supernatural is ill-defined and not particularly useful except as a general rule of thumb.
Translation: Even a large community of Zachriels communicating via their hive mind can't tell the difference between natural and supernatural.Mung
November 14, 2015
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Z, you are just going in circles, it was already shown just how so called methodological naturalism acts as a stalking horse for metaphysical imposition, complete with cites and links. I just note for record. KFkairosfocus
November 14, 2015
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@seversky I've already had these discussions with many atheists / materialists, it's all the same. You can certainly by some effort muster up the emotion to find some drawing made by your own child to be beautiful, genuinely beautiful, while in the mood you were in you would say it is ugly. You can find out all these things yourself, if you have a normal attitude about it. I already explained to you how subjectivity works. It works by choosing about what it is that chooses (agency) resulting in an opinion. You, like all materialists, try to make subjectivity into word-goo. Now you already try to stretch the meaning of the word freedom. Subjectivity just has a basic mathematical logic to it. A choice is made, it has at least 2 options, one is chosen. Then the question what made that choice turn out the way it did? can only be answered by choosing the answer, resulting in an opinion. So that is a set of rules, as contrasted with your word-goo about freedom and whatever else. That is why subjectivity applies anywhere there is freedom in the universe, regardless if it is a human being going left or right, or an animal, or the weather turning out rain or not rain. When there is freedom in some system, then subjectivity applies to the agency of those decisions. That is how creationism works, it requires the facts of how things are decided, and then it is left as opinion what the agency of the decisions is.mohammadnursyamsu
November 14, 2015
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