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Are Some of Our Opponents in the Grip of a “Domineering Parasitical Ideology”?

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[It] is now obvious that the root is we are dealing with a domineering parasitical ideology in the course of destroying its host; through its inherent undermining of responsible rational freedom, the foundation of a sound life of the mind. Immediately, science, science education, the media and policy are being eaten out from within.

KF

Indeed.  The immediate context of KF’s observation is the seeming inability of the Darwinists to understand plain English over the past few days.  Allow me to establish some context.  In a post over at his Sandwalk blog Larry Moran quoted me when I wrote:

For years Darwinists touted “junk DNA” as not just any evidence but powerful, practically irrefutable evidence for the Darwinian hypothesis. ID proponents disagreed and argued that the evidence would ultimately demonstrate function.  Not only did both hypotheses make testable predictions, the Darwinist prediction turned out to be false and the ID prediction turned out to be confirmed.

He then wrote:

But, as most Sandwalk readers know, nobody predicted junk DNA, certainly not Darwinists.

I then provided quotations from two famous Darwinists (Collins and Coyne) using the very word “prediction”:

Darwin’s theory predicts that mutations that do not affect function, (namely, those located in “junk DNA” ) will accumulate steadily over time. Mutations in the coding region of genes, however, are expected to be observed less frequently, and only a rare such event will provide a selective advantage and be retained during the evolutionary process.  That is exactly what is observed.

 

From this we can make a prediction. We expect to find, in the genomes of many species, silenced, or ‘dead,’ genes: genes that once were useful but re no longer intact or expressed.

I also linked to Casey Luskin’s excellent article an ENV showing several more such statements.  There cannot be the slightest doubt that many famous Darwinists said the theory predicts junk DNA.

“But those statements cannot possibly be predictions, because they came after junk DNA was discovered,” the Darwinists shout.  One in particular (lutesuite) has started beating a drum calling for a retraction of my claim.  We have two choices here:

  1. Agree with Moran and lutesuite. But this would require us to believe Collins and Coyne are too stupid to understand what the word “prediction” means.
  1. Disagree with Moran and lutesuite. This would require us to believe that Collins and Coyne were using the word “prediction” in a different sense than “to forecast in advance.”

I vote for (2).  Is there a sense of the word “prediction” that means something other than “to forecast in advance”?  It turns out there is.  Collins and Coyne are not stupid.  Instead, they are engaging in the commonplace act of using the term “prediction” in the sense of “retrodiction” or “postdiction”.  What is that?  Wikipedia explains:

Retrodiction (or postdiction . . .) is the act of making a “prediction” about the past.

My dictionary agrees.

There you have it.  The mystery is solved.  Collins and Coyne are not so stupid that they don’t know the meaning of the word “prediction.”  Moran and lutesuite are simply wrong when they suggest they are.  A prediction does not have to be temporally prior to that which is predicted if the word is used in the sense of a retrodiction.

What does all of this have to do with KF’s observation?  Everything.  Sadly, both Moran and lutesuite are hosting a domineering parasitical ideology that is undermining their responsible rational freedom and destroying their capacity to think clearly.

Consider this.  It really is the case that for Moran and lutesuite to be correct, it must also be the case that two of the most famous scientists in the world are so staggeringly stupid that they don’t know what the word “predict” means.  I do not always agree with Collins and Coyne, but it really is a little much for Moran and lutesuite to imply they are imbeciles.

The only rational conclusion is that Moran and lutesuite are wrong, and not only are they wrong, they are wrong about a very simple matter that would take only two seconds of rational thought to sort out.

But two seconds is a long time, and rational thought is hard when one is in the grip of a domineering parasitical ideology.

Comments
#234 error correction. Contrary to what I incorrectly stated @234, Dr. Moran did not trigger our discussion. The discussion was triggered by DTZ's provocative comment: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-584216
@46 DTZ October 23, 2015 at 1:42 pm Dear Professor Moran, I think I see your point, but perhaps a more effective way to prove it is to show the alleged ‘challenge’ one of their folks posted here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/reality-check-courtesy-of-james-tour/#comment-582669 is not a challenge at all. The guy who wrote that comment admitted he’s not a scientist. It should be easy for someone with your academic credentials and scientific knowledge/experience to show there’s nothing challenging about their questions. Actually, if you do so, you may shutdown their website completely, or at least future visitors would see what’s going on. Wouldn’t this approach work better than engaging in non constructive arguments with the ID folks? Had I had a fraction of your scientific knowledge I would have shut up that guy who issued the alleged ‘challenge’ in the above link. Thank you.
Which I commented @64 in that same thread: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-584272
Regarding the link you posted @46, I don’t think that answering those and other follow-up questions would necessarily shutdown this website. But it definitely could provide to the mentioned professor and his comrades the credibility they all currently lack so badly. However, better don’t hold your breadth while waiting for the mentioned professor or anybody else to dare accepting my invitation to seriously explain things and answering questions. I don’t expect that to occur anytime soon. They seem to lack what is required to do it.
Later DTZ replied @66: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-584299
@66 DTZ October 24, 2015 at 7:56 am Dionisio @64
I don’t think that answering those and other follow-up questions would necessarily shutdown this website.
Perhaps I exaggerated in that sentence. What I meant is that by answering the questions, the professor could demonstrate his academic/scientific credentials while weakening the ID position tremendously.
But it definitely could provide to the mentioned professor and his comrades the credibility they all currently lack so badly.
Well, I would not say the professor lacks credibility, but answering the questions would strengthen it enormously.
Only then professor Moran posted his first comment @69 in the same thread: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-584320 And that started our discussion.Dionisio
November 13, 2015
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Moran. "Will you confirm what Futuyma says in the middle of page 256? The theory of genetic drift … includes some of the most highly refined mathematical models in biology. Do you consider Douglas Futuyma to be an expert on evolution and evolutionary theory?" One can probably extrapolate "highly refined mathematical models" to try and justify all sorts of conjecture for just about anything. And what does "being an expert on evolution and evolutionary theory" really mean from an empirically sufficient scientific point of view related to demonstrating your assertions as having the kind of support required to allow a reasonable individual to agree with your conclusions? Moran, you have been allowed way too long to preach to a bunch of 20 year old kids who could not care less about anything you say except to get a passing grade from an atheist posing as a scientist. Your philosophical preferences, to the extent they influence your teaching in public, should be eliminated from expression to these kids. And maybe you refrain from this. But it seems unlikely.bpragmatic
November 13, 2015
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Larry Moran, and can you be kind enough to point us to the exact experiment that verified those 'highly refined mathematical models' were actually talking about reality instead of just Darwinian pipe dreams? You know, perhaps lay out the exact 'highly refined mathematical model' for how the flagellum is created by unguided material processes and the experiment that verified that 'highly refined mathematical model' to be correct in its prediction? not asking for much, just a real world test verifying your math like all other real world science does!
Michael Behe on Falsifying Intelligent Design - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8jXXJN4o_A Orr maintains that the theory of intelligent design is not falsifiable. He’s wrong. To falsify design theory a scientist need only experimentally demonstrate that a bacterial flagellum, or any other comparably complex system, could arise by natural selection. If that happened I would conclude that neither flagella nor any system of similar or lesser complexity had to have been designed. In short, biochemical design would be neatly disproved.- Dr Behe in 1997 Structural diversity of bacterial flagellar motors - 2011 Excerpt: Figure 3 - Manual segmentation of conserved (solid colours) and unconserved (dotted lines) motor components based on visual inspection. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3160247/figure/f3/ Flagellar Diversity Challenges Darwinian Evolution, Not Intelligent Design - Casey Luskin - July 22, 2015 Excerpt: flagella are distributed in a polyphyletic manner that doesn't fit what we'd expect from common ancestry,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/07/flagellar_diver097831.html The Flagellar Filament Cap: Up close micro-photograph and animations of cap - Jonathan M. - August 2013 Excerpt: We are so used to thinking about biological machines at a macroscopic level that it is all too easy to overlook the molecular structure of their individual components. The closer we inspect biochemical systems, such as flagella, the more the elegant design -- as well as the magnitude of the challenge to Darwinism -- becomes apparent. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/08/the_flagellar_f075101.html Engineering at Its Finest: Bacterial Chemotaxis and Signal Transduction - JonathanM - September 2011 Excerpt: The bacterial flagellum represents not just a problem of irreducible complexity. Rather, the problem extends far deeper than that. What we are now observing is the existence of irreducibly complex systems within irreducibly complex systems. How random mutations, coupled with natural selection, could have assembled such a finely set-up system is a question to which I defy any Darwinist to give a sensible answer. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/09/engineering_at_its_finest_bact050911.html Biologist Howard Berg at Harvard calls the Bacterial Flagellum “the most efficient machine in the universe." The Bacterial Flagellum: A Paradigm for Design - Jonathan M. - Sept. 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, so striking is the appearance of intelligent design that researchers have modeled the assembly process (of the bacterial flagellum) in view of finding inspiration for enhancing industrial operations (McAuley et al.). Not only does the flagellum manifestly exhibit engineering principles, but the engineering involved is far superior to humanity’s best achievements. The flagellum exhibits irreducible complexity in spades. In all of our experience of cause-and-effect, we know that phenomena of this kind are uniformly associated with only one type of cause – one category of explanation – and that is intelligent mind. Intelligent design succeeds at precisely the point at which evolutionary explanations break down. http://www.scribd.com/doc/106728402/The-Bacterial-Flagellum Two Flagella Are Better than One - September 3, 2014 Excerpt: The assembly instructions,, are even more irreducibly complex than the motor itself. Parts are arriving on time and moving into place in a programmed sequence, with feedback to the nucleus affecting how many parts are to be manufactured. Dr. Jonathan Wells added, "What we see is irreducible complexity all the way down." Twelve years of closer looks at these astonishing machines have only amplified those conclusions. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/09/two_flagella_ar089611.html
bornagain
November 13, 2015
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Mung says in response to my question about how many people have read Futuyma's textbook on evolution and another book.
I have them both, but I won’t say I’ve read them cover to cover. Haven’t read Lynch’s book cover to cover either, but I had read the Genomfart chapter. Started chapter 4.
Mung, would you be kind enough to post the Title of Chapter 10 in Futuyma's book for the enlightenment of other ID proponents? Can you explain where it fits into the version of "Darwinism" posted on the glossary? Will you confirm what Futuyma says in the middle of page 256?
The theory of genetic drift ... includes some of the most highly refined mathematical models in biology.
Do you consider Douglas Futuyma to be an expert on evolution and evolutionary theory?Larry Moran
November 13, 2015
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Bornagain #237, Indeed. Bluff and bluster. Somehow one expects better behavior from a "professor". The guy turns out to be a total joke that spreads misleading information to suit his own needs.Box
November 13, 2015
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@236 "Exactly. ID has no details, because it’s vacuous." This from a guy that believes his brain is the result of dumb chance. Virgil Cain believes his brain is intelligently designed and you believe your brain is the result of dumb chance. How does that ground you, when judging his position? hahahahaJack Jones
November 13, 2015
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Yes Box, 213 is particularly telling: translation, "stop asking basic scientific questions that I can't possibly answer coherently and just accept my self proclaimed authority that blind evolution created such astonishing complexity" :) But Box you really have to make the questions much easier for Dr. Moran since he really doesn't appear to have a clue what all the fuss is about. Might I suggest that instead of asking him the question of what is the unifying principle that is holding it all together, perhaps you can start him out with the easier "Where did the information come from?" question? Be sure to point out, when he responds to your question, the fact that he himself, by his own intelligence, is generating more information than has ever been observed being generated by unguided material processes ! :) If you break the issue down that far, and make it that personal for him, maybe, just maybe, it just might be possible for a man who thinks he knows it all already to actually learn something new. I know it is a slim shot, but who knows, miracles do happen! :)bornagain
November 13, 2015
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Virgil (Joe G) Cain @228:
That [how the Intelligent Designer did its job] has nothing to do with ID.
How convenient. You have nothing but an empty claim.
However evolutionism claims to have a step-by-step mechanism for producing the diversity of life.
Baloney. You made that up.
That is why we ask for details- it’s part of the claim.
Whose claim?
ID doesn’t make that claim.
Exactly. ID has no details, because it's vacuous.Daniel King
November 13, 2015
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"I don’t like personal attacks." The truth is not a personal attack "Professor Moran has academic credentials I won’t ever have. He has the scientific experience and knowledge I lack. He knows many scientists who could provide access to most recent interesting papers that are currently behind pay walks" Yet he deletes comments that expose him and blocks, holds contradictory positions with his materialistic evolutionary position and yet sneers at those that do not hold his views. "Dr. Moran is a human being, made in God’s image. I must respect professor Moran, because Christ made him and loves him, even though unfortunately Dr. Moran does not believe it." You are confusing being good with being nice. Me and others have exposed Moran for the joke that he is. "If Dr. Moran chooses to offend me, that’s his own problem, not mine, hence I should not react offended. If I write or say anything ungodly that offends Dr. Moran, I will accept my mistake, apologize and ask for his forgiveness. However, if what offends Dr. Moran is a reference to God or God’s word, that’s Dr. Moran’s own problem with God, not with me. Hence, there’s nothing I can do about it, except pray for Dr. Moran." Moran has to earn respect, I gave him respect and he didn't accept it, I gave him a chance to mend his ways on his blog but he wants to carry on in an infantile way, then he will be treated that way. He treats people with disrespect, why be nice to him?. Anyway, Me exposing his inconsistency is not a personal attack. "Dr. Moran and I should focus in on those subjects, leaving any unrelated comments aside." It might be unrelated for you, And you are welcome to carry on as you please. The fact is. he chastises those that disagree with him as being anti science and yet he believes things that are not consistent with scientific observation like his faith in life originating spontaneously in nature. I have destroyed Professor Moran and exposed his inconsistencies and he ran with his tail between his legs.Jack Jones
November 13, 2015
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Jack Jones @229 I don't like personal attacks. Professor Moran has academic credentials I won't ever have. He has the scientific experience and knowledge I lack. He knows many scientists who could provide access to most recent interesting papers that are currently behind pay walks, He started our dialog after commenting on a post where I wrote that it doesn't take Dr. Tour's credentials in order to raise Dr. Tour's challenge. A nobody like me could raise that challenge too. All is needed is the attitude of a child to always ask questions when something is not well understood. BTW, I'm not an ID-proponent, or a YEC, or OEC, or any of those acronyms. My identity is solely in Christ, my Maker, my Savior, my Lord. I don't need to prove anything. God doesn't need me to prove anything. Actually, He doesn't need me at all. I need Him 100%. Dr. Moran is a human being, made in God's image. I must respect professor Moran, because Christ made him and loves him, even though unfortunately Dr. Moran does not believe it. If Dr. Moran chooses to offend me, that's his own problem, not mine, hence I should not react offended. If I write or say anything ungodly that offends Dr. Moran, I will accept my mistake, apologize and ask for his forgiveness. However, if what offends Dr. Moran is a reference to God or God's word, that's Dr. Moran's own problem with God, not with me. Hence, there's nothing I can do about it, except pray for Dr. Moran. I still think Dr. Moran could reconsider his position and enjoy continuing our interesting discussion, which he triggered in another thread. Dr. Moran could provide links to interesting papers on the discussed topics, given his connection with other more specialized scientists, whom otherwise we could not contact. I'm genuinely interested in learning about the discussed topics of science mentioned in my posts for the discussion with Dr. Moran. Dr. Moran and I should focus in on those subjects, leaving any unrelated comments aside.Dionisio
November 13, 2015
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Bornagain, don't miss Larry Moran's #204 and #213. It's rather shocking — even at a night like this.Box
November 13, 2015
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podcast - "Dr. Cornelius Hunter on ENCODE and "Junk" DNA, Part 2" http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2015-11-13T13_44_44-08_00bornagain
November 13, 2015
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The infantile Larry Moran accusing others of being "childish" Oh the irony.Jack Jones
November 13, 2015
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Larry Moran @225
BTW, Dionisio, don’t bother declaring “victory” and gloating over the fact that I decline to answer your questions. That’s childish.
Why are you talking about "victory" in a serious discussion about scientific topics? Is this how you teach your students in Toronto? I was expecting a higher level of seriousness from a distinguished university professor. Please, don't disappoint me. When science is discussed seriously, we all benefit. In this case, given the highly disproportionate knowledge difference between a science professor and a nobody like me, the biggest beneficiary is the ignorant who can learn much from the friendly exchange of information, which is mostly a one-way flow. Again, thank you for your willingness to share your vast knowledge with me and other interested readers. You may take you time to consult your academic colleagues and/or specific literature, in order to prepare for the discussion. Just remember that YOU were the one who initiated our dialog, it was not me. I can point to the exact post where you did it, if you don't recall it. I was very excited to see you being interested in the discussion, but now you're disappointing me and others here, for not wanting to continue what you started. What made you jump in? Did you think it would be easier? And now, what make you quit? It's turned much harder than you first thought? Why did you react to the word 'exactly' in the second question but not in the first question? Just didn't notice it? Now you seem like not liking digging deep into details in science, but isn't that what sets science apart? Again, I'm not asking for your explanations, because we all know that we need to get help from specialists in the discussed areas. However, all they have to do is just point to specific paper(s) where the raised questions are answered. I have made the questions very specific. Many scientists out there would have answered them right away. Why is taking you so long to find those colleagues and have them provide you with the references to the papers that would move ahead our discussion? Please, calm down, don't panic. Take your time. Let's chat friendly. But yes, be prepared to answer as many questions as I can think of, as long as they stick to the discussed topic. After all, that was the condition expressed in my original posts that you commented on first. Didn't you notice I wrote that the discussion will stop when I run out of further related questions or the other side runs out of time. I'm far from running out of questions, at least as far as I can see. My latest comments in this thread were related to seeing you very active in other discussion threads that don't seem as specific as our discussion. I was surprised to see that you were involved in general discussions that most probably won't lead anywhere, while abandoning our more scientific, specific and interesting discussion, that could take us to interesting areas of the most cutting-edge science research information.Dionisio
November 13, 2015
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DionisioNovember 13, 2015 at 4:26 pm Jack Jones @212 Thank you for bringing that error to my attention. My mistake. I forgot to add the link to the thread where those posts 220 & 221 are: https://uncommondescent.com.....ent-586386 You're welcome, You are very patient with the slippery Moran, It has come to my attention that Professor Moran is anti science and holds his view for a political purpose. He and other atheists are under the illusion that the idea of evolution as a position supports no Creator, It is about atheism for him. It's why he rejects known science like the law of biogenesis which shows life cannot have originated naturally. If Peter's comment is true then it means that Professor Moran is rejecting known science with his support of homosexuality, as it is clear that the anus is not meant for sexual penetration. While men and women could engage in that act, it is going to be much higher among gays who cannot have sexual relations like men and women can in a traditional way. Reading up on this, shows it to be dangerous. "Male homosexuals are at very high risk of contracting the AIDS virus and other sexually transmitted diseases, disproportionately high in comparison to the heterosexual population: The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services published in 2010 a study conducted in 21 American cities, showing that one in five MSM (men who have sex with men) had HIV... A coincidence, you say? No, the way HIV, the AIDS virus, spreads has a lot to do with homosexual behaviour. Before looking into the evidence of brain, genes or hormones we need to recognise that the male body is not designed to be penetrated during sexual intercourse. The lining of the anus is much thinner than the vagina and tears very easily. The lining of the anus, compared to the lining of the vagina, is also designed for nutrients to pass through it - where a healthy vagina will stop sperm entering any part of the body except the reproductive system the anus will allow semen (and any disease it carries) into the blood stream. Also the anal sphincter muscle is designed to expel not accept objects which can lead to problems in later life... So biologically the male and female bodies are compatible with each other not bodies of the same gender. This is from the website of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), a federal government agency: The Surgeon General (C. Everett Koop, Surgeon General 1982-1989) has said, "Condoms provide some protection, but anal intercourse is simply too dangerous to practice". Condoms may be more likely to break during anal intercourse than during other types of sex because of the greater amount of friction and other stresses involved. Even if the condom doesn't break, anal intercourse is very risky because it can cause tissue in the rectum to tear and bleed. These tears allow disease germs to pass more easily from one partner to the other." "Peter November 13, 2015 at 1:05 pm I used to follow Dr Moran’s blog. I thought I would hear from him the strong scientific support for evolution he has claimed existed. I followed his blog for a couple of years and finally got bored of his claims without any proof. There was, however, one exceptional blog in that time that showed the fundamental evidence for evolution according to Dr Moran. He displayed a picture that was on a door in his chemistry department. It promoted gay and woman’s rights. The blog was very critical of religion and according to Dr Moran displayed a fundamental truth – religion is cruel and obsolete. This was the proof text for evolution that Dr Cornelius Hunter has explained in detail. Evolution, as Dr Hunter has said many times, is not based on science but religion. So true."Jack Jones
November 13, 2015
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Larry Moran:
The frustrating thing about this is that ID proponents routinely ask these sorts of questions but they are never prepared to describe how the intelligent designer did his/her job.
That has nothing to do with ID. However evolutionism claims to have a step-by-step mechanism for producing the diversity of life. That is why we ask for details- it's part of the claim. ID doesn't make that claim.Virgil Cain
November 13, 2015
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Larry Moran @225
BTW, Dionisio, don’t bother declaring “victory” and gloating over the fact that I decline to answer your questions. That’s childish.
Why are you talking about "victory" in a serious discussion about scientific topics? Is this how you teach your students in Toronto? I was expecting a higher level of seriousness from a distinguished university professor. Please, don't disappoint me. When science is discussed seriously, we all benefit. In this case, given the highly disproportionate knowledge difference between a science professor and a nobody like me, the biggest beneficiary is the ignorant who can learn much from the friendly exchange of information, which is mostly a one-way flow. Again, thank you for your willingness to share your vast knowledge with me and other interested readers.Dionisio
November 13, 2015
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Larry Moran:
BTW, how many ID proponents have read Futuyma’s textbook on “Evolution”? Cover to cover? ... surely must have read “The Cambrian Explosion: The Construction of Animal Biodiversity” by Erwin Douglas and Valentine James from cover to cover. Right?
I have them both, but I won't say I've read them cover to cover. Haven't read Lynch's book cover to cover either, but I had read the Genomfart chapter. Started chapter 4.Mung
November 13, 2015
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BTW, Dionisio, don't bother declaring "victory" and gloating over the fact that I decline to answer your questions. That's childish.Larry Moran
November 13, 2015
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Dionisio, here are the questions.
Regarding the first topic, i.e. morphogen gradient formation, I still don’t understand well how the sources are determined spatiotemporally (i.e. location & timing). Also, I don’t quite understand how the morphogen molecules end up at the locations where they get transported to. Why those locations and not others? Different mechanisms are described, at least partially, in the literature I’ve looked into, but none seem to answer those questions precisely. Perhaps your academic colleagues can point at the right literature where the above mentioned issues are exactly explained? Morphogen gradients are part of morphogenesis, which includes the determination of size and shape. Morphogenesis is part of organogenesis, which is part of development. A development-related question is about the precise determination of the location of the different organs within the whole system. That seems to be determined on the go, but exactly how? Can you ask your academic colleagues to point at the specific literature where that is explained precisely? For example, what determines that there are two kidneys but just one liver? What determines their relative locations within the whole system?
I'm not a developmental biologist so it wold take me some time to search the scientific literature for the appropriate references. It's a huge and complex field but the basics are quite straightforward. Unfortunately, you aren't asking for an overview from a knowledgeable expert. You want to see definite proof of every point in just a few scientific papers. Science doesn't work like that. Besides, the style of your questions ("exactly explained," "precise determination") suggests strongly that you will never be satisfied with brief answers. That's what happened last time I answered your questions. It just led to more questions. To me, it looks like you are fishing for "gotcha" questions that can never be answered to your satisfaction. If you really want to learn about this stuff then I suggest you start with The Making of a Fly by Peter Lawrence. It's old (1992) but the answers to your questions should all be there because this stuff was worked out at the molecular level decades ago. Once you mastered that, you can delve into the details that you desire with Developmental Biolgy 1oth ed. by Scott Gilbert. That's the definitive textbook on the subject and it will cover humans and other animals. The frustrating thing about this is that ID proponents routinely ask these sorts of questions but they are never prepared to describe how the intelligent designer did his/her job. They won't even tell us whether the intelligent designers are aliens or humans from the future yet you still want us to tell you exactly how morphogen molecules end up at precise locations in the cell and exactly what determines whether we have one or two livers.Larry Moran
November 13, 2015
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#209 error correction: added a missing link :) Professor Moran I see you active in other discussion threads, but do you still want to continue our chatting? You have not commented on my posts @220 & @221 in this thread: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-586386Dionisio
November 13, 2015
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Jack Jones @212 Thank you for bringing that error to my attention. My mistake. I forgot to add the link to the thread where those posts 220 & 221 are: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-586386 I corrected the error @221 here in this current thread. Basically, in the referred thread, professor Moran started a discussion with me, but stopped it later. I just wanted to know if he is still interested in continuing our friendly discussion, which seems more serious than the one in this thread. At least in our discussion we were addressing specific topics of biology. In other threads, including this one, the discussion seems more loosely covering a wider area of issues. I'd be surprised to see a scientist with the academic credentials and scientific knowledge of Dr. Moran to avoid a serious discussion about leading edge issues in modern biology, but still prefer to participate in less serious discussions like this and other threads. As I've expressed in the other thread referenced above, I'm humbled by having a serious discussion with a distinguished scientist like professor Moran. I'd like to think that Dr. Moran is just taking time to consult his colleagues and literature in order to prepare for the discussion.Dionisio
November 13, 2015
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#209 addendum Here's the missing link :) : https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-586386Dionisio
November 13, 2015
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Larry Moran: All of your questions have answers (...)
Sure, but you, and your position, cannot provide them — ever.
Larry Moran: What I don’t understand is your apparent conviction that you have come up with challenging questions that the experts just can’t answer.
You will probably not be able to understand it, but maybe an open-minded onlooker will. It has little to do with being an expert or not. I understand that there is no bottom-up explanation for an organism. It's a fundamental insight. It is impossible to explain the coherence of an organism from the level of the parts. This "understanding" is similar to the way that I understand that particles cannot think or be conscious. Fermions and bosons cannot think and therefore naturalism cannot ground rationality. One doesn't have to be a leading neuroscientist to understand that. There is no molecule (or molecules) that has the overview, power and so forth to bring about the coherence of an organism. There is no "master controller". The naturalistic attempt to explain organisms bottom-up is incoherent. Okay. Because you admire him so much ...
(...) when regulators are in turn regulated, what do we mean by “regulate” — and where within the web of regulation can we single out a master controller capable of dictating cellular fates? And if we can’t, what are reputable scientists doing when they claim to have identified such a controller, or, rather, various such controllers? If they really mean something like “influencers,” then that’s fine. But influence is not about mechanism and control; the factors at issue just don’t have controlling powers. What we see, rather, is a continual mutual adaptation, interaction, and coordination that occurs from above. What we see, that is — once we start following out all the interactions at a molecular level — is not some mechanism dictating the fate or controlling an activity of the organism, but simply an organism-wide coherence — a living, metamorphosing form of activity — within which the more or less distinct partial activities find their proper place. The misrepresentation of this organic coherence in favor of supposed controlling mechanisms is not an innocent inattention to language; it’s a fundamental misrepresentation of reality at the central point where we are challenged to understand the character of living things. [Stephen L. Talbott]
Box
November 13, 2015
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This is what the Bird Watcher Ernst Mayr said in the growth of Biological thought. “Evolution, in a way, contradicts common sense. The offspring of any organism always develops again into the parental type, A Cat always produces only cats.” Evolutionists are divided on just how one type of organism can give rise to a different type of organism over time. But Larry Moran who sets himself up as the worlds foremost authority seems to know. Ladies and Gentlemen. Larry Moran who does not see humans as more than matter in motion cannot tell us which chemical elements are free. If we reduce matter to chemical elements on a periodic table then it would be interesting for larry to tell us, which ones are free. Yet he tells what would be determined bags of chemicals (on his position) that they are wrong. How could determined bags of chemicals be wrong? Professor Moran cannot tell us, whether the evolution he has faith in, occurs according to need or irregardless of need. Professor Moran still cannot tell me why a Doctor would need to believe he is a fish to treat his patients. He cannot tell me why a Doctor needs to believe that he is distantly related to mushrooms in order to treat his patients. Yet Moran got angry when I produced the quote of Marc Kirschner. Clearly Moran is an equivocater and a bs artist when it comes to the term "evolution" I point out that, Jerry Coyne rejects Punctuated Equilibrum. Professor Moran does not then chastise Coyne for rejecting Punctuated Equilibrium and claim he does not understand evolution. Professor Moran names his blog Sandwalk and talks about Darwin being the greatest scientist, and yet professor Moran hates being called a Darwinist. And Moran and his Moranites wonder why they are laughed at.Jack Jones
November 13, 2015
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Yes, Larry Moran has demonstrated that it takes many years of Special High Intensity Training to become a full-fledged evolutionist. And only once you have had your fill of S.H.I.T. are you qualified to understand it and say something about it. Larry's demeanor is a fine example of years of S.H.I.T.Virgil Cain
November 13, 2015
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Dr. Moran, In all sincerity, I thank you for participating here at UD. Your responses to the questions about evolutionary theory are very interesting to me. I for one appreciate that you come back again and again to hold up your side, even if I often disagree with you.Barry Arrington
November 13, 2015
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Larry, You misunderstood me. I know that genes are expressed differently in different tissues. I know that genes are expressed differently during development. That has nothing to do with saying that the timing of gene expression determines the final form. That is the untestable part- that the same genes expressed differently can account for universal common descent. I know about fruit flies with legs for antennae. I know about the mouse eyeless gene (HOX) that was placed into a fruit fly but the fruit fly still developed fruit fly eyes. And do you really believe that gene regulation arose via natural selection and drift? Really??
Craig Venter and his colleagues constructed a synthetic genome and inserted it into a cell.
Into an existing cell with all of the required cellular components. And when it replicated it was very much like the same, original cell. What do you think the DNA determined?Virgil Cain
November 13, 2015
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bFast says,
I would say that punctuated equilibrium is a description of the problem. I put virtually no weight on explanations that attempt to explain the phenomenon.
I'm betting that you don't understand either the phenomenon or the explanation. Prove me wrong.Larry Moran
November 13, 2015
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Virgil Cains says,
It ain’t the genes, it’s when and how they are expressed! Total nonsense and as yet untested- well because no one knows how to test it.
Back when I ran an active lab, my graduate students, post-docs, and I used to clone genes (naked DNA) then put them into various cells to see if they were expressed. We used this test to determine what factors (repressors activators, etc) controlled gene expression. We also mutated and modified the regulatory sequences to see where the various factors bound and how they affected transcription. This was pretty standard stuff in the 1980s and it's still standard stuff today. If you come to Toronto I can get you into a lab where you can do these tests yourself. Undergraduates do it all the time and so do gifted high school students.
Genes and DNA influence and control development but they do not determine what will develop.
Craig Venter and his colleagues constructed a synthetic genome and inserted it into a cell. The DNA determined the structure and properties of the organism that grew and after many subsequent generations we have a new species that behaves exactly like it was supposed to based on the genes that the scientists built. First Self-Replicating Synthetic Bacterial Cell HTH HANDLarry Moran
November 13, 2015
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