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At Evolution News: Günter Bechly repudiates “Professor Dave’s” attacks against ID

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Günter Bechly, Senior Fellow of the Center for Science and Culture, addresses the off-base accusations made against ID and the Discovery Institute.

Dave Farina is an atheist American YouTuber who runs a channel called Professor Dave Explains with almost two million subscribers.

The clichés and misrepresentations Farina recycles about intelligent design are beyond tired. Still, those new to the debate might find it helpful to see Farina’s false claims debunked.

Farina seems more interested in caricaturing those he disagrees with than understanding them.

Three Major Problems 

Farina also thinks that intelligent design theory “cannot be validated as real science because it does not explain or predict anything.” Here are three major problems with this statement:

Who defines what qualifies as “real science”? It is certainly not Dave Farina. It is not judges in court rooms. And it is not even the scientists themselves who define “science.” Reasonably, it is philosophers of science who address this question. But Farina seems to be totally ignorant of the fact that there is no consensus among philosophers of science about a demarcation criterion that could reliably distinguish science from non-science. Any criterion yet suggested, including Karl Popper’s criterion of falsifiability, either excludes too much (e.g., scientific fields like string theory or evolutionary biology) or includes too much (e.g., homeopathy or parapsychology).

Of course, intelligent design has explanatory power. Otherwise, we could not even explain the existence of Romeo and Juliet by the intelligent agency of William Shakespeare. There is no doubt that the designing activity of an intelligent agent is a perfectly valid explanation for complex specified patterns. The only question under debate is whether such patterns are confined to the realm of human cultural artifacts or if they are also found in nature. But this question should not be decided by dogmatic a priorirestrictions of certain worldviews that do not allow for design explanations whatever the evidence might be, but should rather follow the evidence wherever it leads. It is an empirical question to be decided by the data.

It is simply false that intelligent design does not predict anything. Indeed, this is yet another common stereotype that has been refuted so many times by ID proponents that any further use of this argument can be based only on a total ignorance of the facts (or perhaps deliberate lying, but I prefer not to apply that interpretation). Stephen Meyer (2009) included in his book Signature in the Cell a whole chapter with a dozen predictions inspired by intelligent design theory. These are often very precise and easily falsifiable, for example: “No undirected process will demonstrate the capacity to generate 500 bits of new [specified] information starting from a nonbiological source.” Just write a computer simulation that achieves this, without smuggling the information in through a backdoor, and you can claim victory over a core prediction of intelligent design.

Evolution News

Dr. Bechly addresses numerous additional misfires attempted by Professor Dave. With such a voluble spray of baseless accusations coming from someone like Professor Dave, it can be helpful to be reminded of the proverb, “Like a sparrow in its flitting, like a swallow in its flying, a curse that is causeless does not alight.” (Proverbs 26:2)

Comments
ET: There is no testable scientific hypothesis of evolution by means of blind and mindless processes. I don't understand why you keep saying that. As you very well know even Darwin himself mentioned ways it could be tested or falsified, finding an irreducibly complex structure is one way in particular. Every time someone finds a fossil it's a test of unguided evolution. And you yourself make similar statements about ID: all anyone has to do is to show natural processes could have 'done it'. The funny thing is: you can't or won't say what kind of evidence you would accept that unguided, natural processes are sufficient. If you mean to say that there is no 'scientific' theory of unguided evolution you also know that is not true; even Dr Behe admits there is a scientific theory of unguided evolution. And you know what the 'mechanisms' are, in part: natural selection, sexual selection, genetic drift, etc. You have not provided a mechanism for the implementation of design which is the real issue since design itself does nothing. Only implementation has an effect. You can't even say when design was implemented. Your notion of there being extra coding in the cell has not been shown to be true as no one can show where that programming is, how it is encoded biologically and how it affects development. You can't explain how life is 'programmed' to evolve, that is: how does the programming survive unaffected by copying errors over billions of years. Nor can you explain how the programming works under different environmental conditions . . . is it like some giant case statement with lots of options depending on surroundings. Or what? Can you explain how humans develop from infants to adults? Is that also through some extra programming (since you don't believe DNA affects phylogeny)? You don't have a 'theory' of intelligent design that actually explains anything. You just say: this and that looks designed, I can't understand how it could have happened via natural processes and stop asking me about when or how design is implemented because . . . well . . . there must be some . . . stuff inside cells which makes it all work even though no one can find it. Even you aren't looking for it. (Cue ET's calling me a liar and then absolutely refusing to accept any statement of the theory of unguided evolution without being able to actually specify what is unscientific about it.)JVL
June 5, 2022
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RD, you are continuing with slander. Final warning to desist. KF PS, per Newton's rules as appealed to by Lyell in Principles of Geology, Vol III, kindly provide a case of known, actually observed cause of a string of alphanumerical characters expressing meaningful functional coded information at or beyond 500 to 1000 binary digits or equivalent rather than gibberish and/or empty repetition. Failing which, you have no epistemic right to postulate that such occurred. In reality you are refusing to acknowledge a fact with trillions of observations to back it. There are trillions of observed cases of origin of FSCO/I, in every case it is by intelligently directed configuration. This entitles us to infer that the best explanation of such FSCO/I in D/RNA or proteins or the cellular process flow metabolic network is design, per inference on reliable sign. PPS, I clip:
PRINCIPLES OF GEOLOGY: BEING AN INQUIRY HOW FAR THE FORMER CHANGES OF THE EARTH’S SURFACE ARE REFERABLE TO CAUSES NOW IN OPERATION. [--> appeal to Newton's Rules, in the title of the work] BY CHARLES LYELL, Esq, F.R.S. PRESIDENT OF THE GEOLOGICAL SOCIETY OE LONDON . . . JOHN MURRAY , , , 1835 [--> later, publisher of Origin]
kairosfocus
June 4, 2022
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RD, further doubling down on hyperskeptical, irresponsible denialism. In 85 above you have a record of actual testing of the hyp, that functionally specific, complex organisation and/or information [FSCO/I as identified in the 70's by Orgel and Wicken] beyond 500 to 1,000 bits will only be found to occur through intelligently directed configuration. The history of this actually extends as far as Cicero. In this case, they document that string generation exercises that unlike Weasel and descendants do not inject active information are a factor of 1 in 10^100 of the lower end of the threshold. KF PS, Orgel 1973:
living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . . . [HT, Mung, fr. p. 190 & 196:] These vague idea can be made more precise by introducing the idea of information. Roughly speaking, the information content of a structure is the minimum number of instructions needed to specify the structure.
[--> this is of course equivalent to the string of yes/no questions required to specify the relevant J S Wicken "wiring diagram" for the set of functional states, T, in the much larger space of possible clumped or scattered configurations, W, as Dembski would go on to define in NFL in 2002, also cf here, -- here and -- here -- (with here on self-moved agents as designing causes).]
One can see intuitively that many instructions are needed to specify a complex structure. [--> so if the q's to be answered are Y/N, the chain length is an information measure that indicates complexity in bits . . . ] On the other hand a simple repeating structure can be specified in rather few instructions.  [--> do once and repeat over and over in a loop . . . ] Complex but random structures, by definition, need hardly be specified at all . . . . Paley was right to emphasize the need for special explanations of the existence of objects with high information content, for they cannot be formed in nonevolutionary, inorganic processes [--> Orgel had high hopes for what Chem evo and body-plan evo could do by way of info generation beyond the FSCO/I threshold, 500 - 1,000 bits.] [The Origins of Life (John Wiley, 1973), p. 189, p. 190, p. 196.]
kairosfocus
June 4, 2022
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Yet another trollbot alert @120. All of the content consists of unsubstantiated claims without a shred of evidence or logic. Once again, you can easily substitute any names you want. Notice the vacuous repetition and pointless vituperation. All easily refuted. The trollbot @120 is completely clueless that the wavefunction, a foundation of quantum mechanics, is non-material information. But this has only been known for close to 100 years. Someone needs to update its script. Please don't feed the trollbots. It's a waste of your time and the script kiddie who wrote it is laughing. -QQuerius
June 4, 2022
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This moronic fever dream of the knownliar Berlinsky, that nature can not produce "information" is laughable nonsese, when in fact nature does that all the time. “information” is not a material substance that needs to be forged by an intelligence, It is: a pattern or sequence of items. In the case of DNA: nucleotides. If nucleotides polymerize to form a nucleic acid, and that sequence acts as a template for the synthesis of another molecule, it’s information. It’s just a word we use to describe something that exists, that applies to biological and nonbiological sequences alike and has zero implications toward intelligence. There is neither an credible alternatve to natural causes for DNAand the sequence it's nucleotides are arranged (those change with completely natural mutations), nor is there reason to believe that there is someting beyond the natural world in general, that could have a hand in this. You are sticking with this fallacious assumption because you like to have scientific backing for your God. Be it for yourself or to fool others, I neither know nor care . The fact remains: Only a fallacious assumption leads to this supposed"intelligence". ID proponents consist of three major groups. Moronic clowns like Joe G. here, DI employees who are usually lacking even the tiniest bit of integrity who make a living by telling lies (That would be you BIll!) and of course their prey, scientific illiterate, childhood indoctrinated victims of intellectual neglect TheRob Davis
June 4, 2022
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@Silver Asiatic89 "You can’t explain the origin of a functional coded information system with naturalism … but we can explain the origin of such a system by use of intelligence – we can model and produce that kind of system and observe it empirically using intelligence so naturalism fails and ID Is best inference for an explanation." You are not explainng anything when the "intelligence" you appeal to, does not exist. Then you are appealing to one mystery to solve anther...that has no explantory power. That is a fallacious assumtion. You can’t explain xy with naturalism..so magic is real” That is basically the ID position. As long as there is no demonstrable correletion between the supernatural, it’s existence, let alone its’s interference with reality… natural causes for anything in nature have NO CREDIBLE ALTERNATIVE. No amount of baseless claims or fallacious assumptions is going to change that. That is the reason ID has never contributed anything to our understanding if nature ever.Rob Davis
June 4, 2022
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Back to a testable scientific hypothesis of "Intelligent Design". The rebuttal to my claim there is no such thing would be to cite one.Fred Hickson
June 4, 2022
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Querius, I'm puzzled about what you want me to do about hydra. The only issue for me is that you claim your hydra could extend their tentacles from a habitually observed length of a few millimetres to a length of 25+ centimetres. It seemed an odd thing when you claimed which is why I queried it. If you insist your hydra had tentacles extensible to the 8" to 10" range then fine. I remain unconvinced.Fred Hickson
June 4, 2022
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Querius Here's another one:
Common species include Hydra vulgaris (brown Hydra) and Chlorohydra viridissima (green Hydra). Green Hydra differ from brown Hydra in that their green color is caused by their symbiont, an alga (Chlorella) Green Hydra are also smaller than brown Hydra, ranging from about 0.5 to 2 cm. https://www.wardsci.com/assetsvc/asset/en_US/id/16920426/contents
Silver Asiatic
June 4, 2022
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The bottom line is however poor, unbelievable or laughable evolution proponents find Intelligent Design, Intelligent Design is the only viable scientific concept which attempts to explain what we observe that makes testable predictions. There is no testable scientific hypothesis of evolution by means of blind and mindless processes. Both Fred and Rob will avoid that demonstrable reality.ET
June 4, 2022
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Rob Davis:
Every component for naturalism is demonstrably real.
Naturalism is a failed philosophy. Did nature produce itself? Natural processes only exist in nature, so they couldn't have produced nature. Saying that the laws of nature just are, the way they are, as Hawkins did, isn't a scientific claim. There isn't anything demonstrably real about that. There isn't anything demonstrably real about the claim that nature produced life. All you can do is demonstrably deny reality. Pathetic, really.ET
June 4, 2022
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Fred Hickson:
Nope, GEM, I don’t know what the “Design” inference is.
How do you think archaeologists determine a rock from an artifact? How do forensic scientists determine if a crime has been committed? How would SETI know if they received an artificial signal? All of them rely on a design inference. An archaeologist's claim of an artifact can be over-ruled by a geologist showing that geological processes can produce it. A claim of homicide can be over-ruled by showing agency intervention wasn't required, ie a natural death. How do you not know this basic stuff?ET
June 4, 2022
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FH, this is now selectively hyperskeptical denialism, oh what could it possibly mean to infer on tested reliable signs that the best current explanation of some object or state of affairs is intelligently designed configuration. Never mind, it includes the inference that the text we see in posts comes from such. As though abductive inference to the best explanation were some dubious idiosyncrasy rather than a major aspect of scientific, historical, forensic, managerial and common sense reasoning. Your rhetorical gambit cannot be sincere. KFkairosfocus
June 4, 2022
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Frecd Hickson:
There really is no testable scientific hypothesis of “Intelligent Design”, as I said but let’s have a look at what ET claims:
OK. As evidence that you don't know anything, please present a testable hypothesis with regard to evolution by means of blind and mindless processes, so we can compare. Your ignorant trope is meaningless:
This is a sock-gnome argument. There’s no way to link “CSI” (whatever that might be, I’ve never seen anyone produce figures for biological features) to “Designer did it”. Complete non-sequitur and typical reversion to the default-without-justification negative argument. Evolution sucks so design wins.
Look, your ignorance is not an argument. First, Crick gave us a definition of information with respect to biology. Shannon gave us a methodology to measure the information carrying capacity of a sequence of nucleotides. So, the high information content of living organisms is already a given. And the link is in the way real investigations transpire. The link is cause-and-effect relationships. The genetic code involves a coded information processing system in which mRNA codons represent amino acids. This is the epitome of a code. The ribosome is a genetic compiler, complete with error detection. There isn't any evidence that nature can produce that nature can produce coded information processing systems. Codes, themselves, are not reducible to physics or chemistry. And error detection requires knowledge. You don't have anything to account for it. So, we understand you are butthurt. There is one and only one known cause for producing error detection, error correction and coded information processing systems and that is via intelligent agency volition. So, using our KNOWLEDGE of cause-and-effect relationships, in accordance with Newton's 4 rules of scientific reasoning, we infer the genetic code is intelligently designed. Science 101- for those who understand science, anyway. However, as with all scientific inferences, you and yours can falsify that claim by stepping up and showing that premise 3 is false! You have all of the power and yet you choose willful ignorance and whining. Thank you for proving that you don't understand science. Newton's four rules of scientific reasoning (and Occam's Razor) DEMAND that nature, the processes described in #3, must be eliminated before a design inference can be considered. You are obviously just a troll. You are clearly Alan Fox or another evoBabble baby. It is a mandatory negative argument. One that archaeologists and forensic scientists have to make. You really are clueless. So, go ahead Fred. Please post your testable hypothesis for: 3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity. I would vote for booting you out if you refuse.ET
June 4, 2022
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What time have you wasted, Querius?Fred Hickson
June 4, 2022
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Lieutenant Commander Data @107,
Well you also deny the reality by trying to break a wall with your head.
Haha! Yes, I sometimes do that because it feels so good when I stop! -QQuerius
June 4, 2022
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Fred Hickson @106, My observations were confirmed by the two research biologists who run the rsscience.com website, but you're "not convinced." Yet, you haven't lifted a finger (other than typing a seven-word, non-committal response) to do any research yourself. This says a lot. I ask myself, what would it take to convince "Fred Hickson," and get him to admit that his skepticism was prejudicial and unscientific? - Do I crawl on my hands and knees bearing five more references that he'll simply wave off disdainfully? - After twenty references, will he say, "Maybe you could be right, but this doesn't matter" or something like that? - After more a few more references and two published papers, will he simply disappear again, smirking over the amount of time he got me to waste? How about doing your own research for a change? -QQuerius
June 4, 2022
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Querius Interesting denial of reality.
:) Well you also deny the reality by trying to break a wall with your head.Lieutenant Commander Data
June 4, 2022
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Yes, Querius, I looked at your link.Fred Hickson
June 4, 2022
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Nope, GEM, I don't know what the "Design" inference is.Fred Hickson
June 4, 2022
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Fred Hickson @98,
No, Querius. Not convinced about your hydra enough to investigate further.
Interesting denial of reality. Did you even bother looking at the link that I provided you, where it reports the following:
"Hydra has a cylindrical, radially symmetric body from 2 to 20 mm in length. It is visible to the naked eyes when fully extended. Their tentacles may extend much longer – some species of green hydra may measure about 5 cm to 20 cm when extended. The body of a hydra may retract (while sensing a danger), making the organism appear shorter and rounded." https://rsscience.com/hydra/
The Rsscience website describes its mission as follows:
"My husband and I are both scientists working in the Boston area. During the day, we try hard to solve problems in biology and cure human diseases in the laboratory. When we think of the next generation, we realized the fundamental way to advance science is to cultivate our curiosity through education." https://rsscience.com/about-me/
So, when faced with mounting evidence against your skepticism, you simply announce you're "not convinced" and abandon one conversation to make vacuous statements in another one. Why would I want to correspond with you? However, my suggestions for cultivating hydra are based on my experience and worked well. My recommendation for getting a binocular dissection (aka inspection) microscope such as the one I use, a B&L 10.5-45X ZOOM with a toroidal lighted stage, is a wonderful tool for studying the wonders of biology in detail. -QQuerius
June 4, 2022
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FH, doubling down again. You full well know that the design inference is testable, has been informally tested trillions of times and passes. FSCO/I comes about by design, intelligently directed configuration. You know it, it rankles, you choose to assert what you know is false to dismiss what you know is true. Sad. KFkairosfocus
June 4, 2022
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@ Querius. Email me. fredhickson@protonmail.com If you want.Fred Hickson
June 4, 2022
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FH, lying again.
Big frog, small pond.Fred Hickson
June 4, 2022
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RD, doubling down on slander in the face of correction. You demonstrate that you are not responsible or responsive to evidence or argument. Ideology pushing fail. KFkairosfocus
June 4, 2022
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FH, lying again. You know full well that any production of FSCO/I beyond 500 - 1,000 bits by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity without intelligently directed configuration would shatter the design inference. This is so blatant that we can see it lurking as Wiki tries to explain away the realities of Dawkins' Weasel in the same infinite monkeys article as was already cited:
Evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins employs the typing monkey concept in his book The Blind Watchmaker to demonstrate the ability of natural selection to produce biological complexity out of random mutations. [--> notice, meant to mimic chance and necessity only] In a simulation experiment Dawkins has his weasel program produce the Hamlet phrase METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL, starting from a randomly typed parent, by "breeding" subsequent generations and always choosing the closest match from progeny that are copies of the parent, with random mutations. [--> so this is target directed and selects from non functional strings the one that is closer to the target] The chance of the target phrase appearing in a single step is extremely small, yet Dawkins showed that it could be produced rapidly (in about 40 generations) using cumulative selection of phrases. [--> cumulative, intelligent selection, illustrating intelligent design] The random choices furnish raw material, while cumulative selection imparts information. [--> sneaking in the back door] As Dawkins acknowledges, however, the weasel program is an imperfect analogy for evolution, as "offspring" phrases were selected "according to the criterion of resemblance to a distant ideal target."
[--> that is, selecting from equally non functional due to warmer/colder active information, the real challenge being skipped is to arrive at shorelines of function beyond which one may hill climb with improved function]
In contrast, Dawkins affirms, evolution has no long-term plans [--> and cannot reward non function] and does not progress toward some distant goal (such as humans). The weasel program is instead meant to illustrate the difference between non-random cumulative selection, and random single-step selection.[20] [--> really! it illustrates intelligent design] In terms of the typing monkey analogy, this means that Romeo and Juliet could be produced relatively quickly if placed under the constraints of a nonrandom, Darwinian-type selection
[--> of course, the selection has to be between functional forms but the problem is Dawkins rewards non function, implicitly placing the strings on islands of function. Islands, as multi part function depending on arrangement, orientation and coupling of parts will only be functional for a relatively few configs in the sea of possibilities]
because the fitness function [--> smuggling in the implied assumption that every possible string is functional enough to count] will tend to preserve in place any letters that happen to match the target text, improving each successive generation of typing monkeys.
Fail. KFkairosfocus
June 4, 2022
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No, Querius. Not convinced about your hydra enough to investigate further.Fred Hickson
June 4, 2022
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Fred Hickson @95, Oh, there you are! Looks like you caved on . . .
Fred Hickson, Have you punted on 20 cm hydra, Susumu Ohno’s Evolution by Gene Duplication, and your skepticism on my experimental results? Since you claim you still enjoy hydra, why not try my experiment for yourself? I also recommend getting a binocular dissection (aka inspection) microscope. Mine is an amazingly sweet B&L 10.5-45X ZOOM with circular-lighted stage. They’re not cheap, but it all depends on one’s priorities. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/from-the-scientist-genome-reveals-clues-to-giraffes-blatantly-strange-body-shape/
-QQuerius
June 4, 2022
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Also note that the trollbot's "arguments" are based on modern educational norms that elevate passion to "emotional truth, and that unsupported assertions, when they agree with the current narrative, whatever that might be and subject to change without warning, constitutes IRREFUTABLE TRUTH. And anything or anybody challenging those cherished doctrines are acts of verbal violence, microaggression against [fill in the blank], and threaten to destroy civilization through [fill in the blank]. Conversely, if the current narrative changes, then all previous statements and positions are null and void through good intentions and are immediately forgotten. In Darwinism, examples include - Spontaneous generation and abiogenesis - Darwin's colonialist and genocidal book, The Descent of Man - Over a hundred vestigial organs in humans (including ductless glands such as the thyroid) - Inherited criminality among humans - Criminality among "primitive" and "less evolved" humans (treated as subhumans) - "Junk" DNA (now renamed to non protein-coding DNA) - Pervasive Lamarckian descriptions of evolution - Iterative evolution and parallel evolution (magical explanations of falsifying evidence) - "Living fossils" (how some creatures magically stopped evolving for 60-70 million years) - The presence of modern phenotypes among dinosaur fossils - Dinosaur fossils that are not mineralized. (they're bones, not stones) - The presence of "stretchy" tissue and intact red blood cells in dinosaur bones (ignored) Enjoy your brave new world. -QQuerius
June 4, 2022
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Querius:
See what I mean?
No. Evolutionary theory stands on its own bottom (ask KF).Fred Hickson
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