Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

At Evolution News: Günter Bechly repudiates “Professor Dave’s” attacks against ID

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Günter Bechly, Senior Fellow of the Center for Science and Culture, addresses the off-base accusations made against ID and the Discovery Institute.

Dave Farina is an atheist American YouTuber who runs a channel called Professor Dave Explains with almost two million subscribers.

The clichés and misrepresentations Farina recycles about intelligent design are beyond tired. Still, those new to the debate might find it helpful to see Farina’s false claims debunked.

Farina seems more interested in caricaturing those he disagrees with than understanding them.

Three Major Problems 

Farina also thinks that intelligent design theory “cannot be validated as real science because it does not explain or predict anything.” Here are three major problems with this statement:

Who defines what qualifies as “real science”? It is certainly not Dave Farina. It is not judges in court rooms. And it is not even the scientists themselves who define “science.” Reasonably, it is philosophers of science who address this question. But Farina seems to be totally ignorant of the fact that there is no consensus among philosophers of science about a demarcation criterion that could reliably distinguish science from non-science. Any criterion yet suggested, including Karl Popper’s criterion of falsifiability, either excludes too much (e.g., scientific fields like string theory or evolutionary biology) or includes too much (e.g., homeopathy or parapsychology).

Of course, intelligent design has explanatory power. Otherwise, we could not even explain the existence of Romeo and Juliet by the intelligent agency of William Shakespeare. There is no doubt that the designing activity of an intelligent agent is a perfectly valid explanation for complex specified patterns. The only question under debate is whether such patterns are confined to the realm of human cultural artifacts or if they are also found in nature. But this question should not be decided by dogmatic a priorirestrictions of certain worldviews that do not allow for design explanations whatever the evidence might be, but should rather follow the evidence wherever it leads. It is an empirical question to be decided by the data.

It is simply false that intelligent design does not predict anything. Indeed, this is yet another common stereotype that has been refuted so many times by ID proponents that any further use of this argument can be based only on a total ignorance of the facts (or perhaps deliberate lying, but I prefer not to apply that interpretation). Stephen Meyer (2009) included in his book Signature in the Cell a whole chapter with a dozen predictions inspired by intelligent design theory. These are often very precise and easily falsifiable, for example: “No undirected process will demonstrate the capacity to generate 500 bits of new [specified] information starting from a nonbiological source.” Just write a computer simulation that achieves this, without smuggling the information in through a backdoor, and you can claim victory over a core prediction of intelligent design.

Evolution News

Dr. Bechly addresses numerous additional misfires attempted by Professor Dave. With such a voluble spray of baseless accusations coming from someone like Professor Dave, it can be helpful to be reminded of the proverb, “Like a sparrow in its flitting, like a swallow in its flying, a curse that is causeless does not alight.” (Proverbs 26:2)

Comments
“STDs are just diseases that are primarily transmitted by sexual activity” Duh, and they are harmful and to the point ,one need not appeal to religious beliefs to say they are. .”There are other diseases that are spread by specific activities but nobody talks about banning them. “ Nor did I talk about banning them nor was your question about “banning” it was about harm, way to change the subject , predictable. “Some require physical contact, yet we continue to hug and shake hands” So what? This has nothing to do with the topic and just a diversion, always throw chaff when all else fails. “ but we never claim that the activities themself are wrong. “ I did not make a moral argument , I pointed out how they are harmful without appealing to religious beliefs which was what you asked for. “STDs are easily preventable by use of condoms yet the reaction by many is to say that premarital sex is wrong,” The topic is what is harmful without appealing to religious beliefs, please stay on topic. “ rather than to say that the use of condoms is good.” The use of condoms is good. “Homosexuality and premarital sex are no more harmful than going to church.” I wish you could tell this to my brother.I have personal and tragic first hand experience that this is BS. I wish my brother were alive today but he died a horrible death due to AIDS. Vivid vividbleau
VB: OMG did not know one could get STDs by going to church, surely you can do better?
STDs are just diseases that are primarily transmitted by sexual activity. There are other diseases that are spread by specific activities but nobody talks about banning them. Some require physical contact, yet we continue to hug and shake hands. Some are spread as aerosols, yet we continue to go to church and sporting events. When risks are very high for either of these we may temporarily change our behaviour but we never claim that the activities themself are wrong. STDs are easily preventable by use of condoms yet the reaction by many is to say that premarital sex is wrong, rather than to say that the use of condoms is good. Homosexuality and premarital sex are no more harmful than going to church. JHolo
“So, again, what is there to discuss?” The frozen accident I guess? Vivid vividbleau
Fred Hickson:
If Jblais wants to carry Upright Biped’s torch, I’m happy to continue the discussion around aminoacyl tRNA synthetases.
What's to discuss? We are still waiting for any evidence for any RNA world. We are still waiting for any evidence that this alleged RNA world could lead to DNA-based life. The fact is there isn't any evidence that RNA is a precursor to DNA-based life. So, again, what is there to discuss? ET
JVL, >What was [Kauffman's] alternative hypothesis? Don't remember. It was of course a naturalistic hypothesis. My point was that a secular researcher rejected a particular naturalistic hypothesis on an improbability-based argument, without waiting millions of years. If arguments of that type are good enough for someone with his credentials, why can't everyone use them? >Again, are you saying that ID is strictly an historical science? No, only in part. I also spoke of the inability to observe complexity forming today in the absence of intelligence, and so on, as many are trying to point out to you in this very thread. >how long are you willing to wait to see if unguided, natural processes are sufficient? I have to decide what to think within my lifetime. Even secular scientists don't wait millions of years to make up their minds. >it seems to me that there is absolutely no way that natural processes can have conceivably be ruled out. Not in 150 years. No way. That's when one has to employ probabilities to decide what to favor. That's what they are for. One does not have to wait millions of years. One can do math on probabilities to see what processes can or cannot likely do over larger time spans than what we can directly observe. EDTA
“1) Aids, HIV. By this argument, attending church is harmful. “ OMG did not know one could get STDs by going to church, surely you can do better? The rest of your rebuttal is just as nonsensical and irrelevant.. Vivid vividbleau
VB: JHolo: Maybe you can try to explain why homosexuality, same sex marriage, masturbation, transgender, premarital sex, etc are harmful. And see if you can do it without imposing religious beliefs.” 1) Aids, HIV. By this argument, attending church is harmful. 2)Addiction to pornography and the degradation of women. None of these cause the addiction to porn and the degradation of women. 3) There is no trans anything it’s a mental illness, gender dysphoria.The brain structure and activity of the transgendered brain more closely resembles that of their identified gender than their biological sex. 4) STDs See number 1. 5) Unwanted pregnancy. Married, monogamous couples also have unwanted pregnancies. 6) A mans ass hole was not meant for a man’s penis.If a consensual couple want to use it for pleasure, just as opposite sex couples use their hands and mouths do, what harm are they causing. You may think it is repulsive, but who cares? 7) The obliteration of women as a distinct class. It’s strange, but I don’t see any shortage of women because we accept homosexuality, transgender, same sex marriage or masturbation.
JHolo
Prediction: He’ll be back
Didn’t take long for this prediction to come true. jerry
“Maybe you can try to explain why homosexuality, same sex marriage, masturbation, transgender, premarital sex, etc are harmful. And see if you can do it without imposing religious beliefs.” 1) Aids, HIV. 2)Addiction to pornography and the degradation of women. 3) There is no trans anything it’s a mental illness, gender dysphoria. 4) STDs 5) Unwanted pregnancy 6) A mans ass hole was not meant for a man’s penis. 7) The obliteration of women as a distinct class. Vivid vividbleau
If Jblais wants to carry Upright Biped's torch, I'm happy to continue the discussion around aminoacyl tRNA synthetases. Fred Hickson
ET at 924 "Proteins. The genetic code pertains to the building of proteins. Cells come from cells. And the genetic code definitely doesn’t determine biological form. The genetic code pertains to transcription and translation, ie the rules for taking the source code in DNA and producing the object code in a functioning protein, ie a specified polypeptide." Yes thanks, I agree with all you said. I should have said something more like: the genetic code is a programming language that is necessary to build the protein structures of living cells or living organisms. Jblais
JVL, I am pointing out the testability, tested status, and successful track record of prediction. The strawman caricature of the design inference, design theory and design supporters collapses. As you knew from the outset as you have been here at UD all along and know when these issues were discussed thoroughly, especially surrounding the explanatory filter. KF kairosfocus
JH: Still playing the strawman caricature game, I see. Okay:
1: You are objecting that in effect I am failing at truth and right reason, thus warrant. That is already a case where objectors appeal to the very first duties that they wish to overturn. 2: In fact, that is my key point, that the Ciceronian first duties of reason are so pervasive that thoise who try to object find themselves appealing to what they would overturn, just to gain some persuasive effect or apparent plausibility. 3: Similarly, one who would try to prove same is already appealing to same. 4: So, we see the marks of branch on which we all sit, first principle truths. 5: First principles, antecedent to objections and to attempted proofs or argument, i.e. these first principles govern rational life including argument. 6: So, we immediately see that they are self evident, as once one understands, one sees they are so and must be so as the attempt to deny is instantly and manifestly absurd. 7: Where, notice, at no point have I invoked a sacred text or tradition or claim, I am pointing to an epistemological-logical pattern that is readily evident. 8: Self evident degree of warrant, so knowable and objective, antecedent to any debates over ontological roots of the world. 9: All of this has been pointed out in your presence many times and you are a sufficiently experienced and educated person to recognise that, so there is no excuse for your attempt to set up and knock over a strawman. 10: Which, of course, is a case in point of disregard for truth, right reason and sound warrant. 11: Sad, but at this point utterly unsurprising.
So, we find ourselves as morally governed creatures, with duties to truth, right reason, warrant and wider prudence etc. This, on the basis of common experience, accessible to any who would but inquire into the matter. Thus, this is a cluster of self evident truth, independent of any particular worldview or tradition. (And, historically, it comes to us from a Stoic, summarising the Greco-Roman understanding of base law. yes, it is endorsed by Christians, but that is only a matter of acknowledging self evident truth, as far as that goes.) Yes, as self evident truth, it raises serious questions about the roots of reality in which we find an actual world with such responsible, rational, significantly free and morally governed creatures in it. That is onward, the cart has been put before the horse in your strawman caricature. So, we are back to the issue of whether you and others of like mind are willing to acknowledge that we have such duties to truth, right reason, warrant etc. If you so fear ontological issues that you are unwilling to acknowledge such, that speaks, and not in your favour. KF kairosfocus
JVL:
That’s the other part of the design inference that I find faulty: it seems to me that there is absolutely no way that natural processes can have conceivably be ruled out.
Your scientific illiteracy is showing, again. There is absolutely no evidence that natural processes can produce the coded information processing system involved with the genetic code. We don't have to rule out something that doesn't have any evidentiary support. So, we rule them out to the best of our ability using our current knowledge of cause-and-effect relationships. ET
I’m just trying to figure out why, if ID is a science, that it can’t provide a test or experiment of an ID prediction, something that can be reproduced by many different observers
Provided just a short time ago (less than five hours) and ignored as predicted. And my prediction for disingenuous comments is still 100% accurate. jerry
JVL:
I’m just trying to figure out why, if ID is a science, that it can’t provide a test or experiment of an ID prediction, something that can be reproduced by many different observers. What is wrong with that?
You don't know how to read for comprehension. You have been given what you have asked for. ET
EDTA: Some things, such as questions of a historical nature, can’t be tested in the same way that we test other claims, such as questions of physics. There are different kinds of knowledge, and with each comes different degrees of certaint(ies). This is important to note. Yes, there is a difference between historical sciences and things like physics. Does that mean you think that ID is strictly a historic science OR do you think that ID has something to say about stuff that is happening now? If the latter then why is it not fair to ask for a demonstration of ID having an effect in the present? This means that testability (like our earlier comments on “making predictions”) is not a universal criterion of all types of scientific inquiry. Even in archaeology there are people who do actual experiments to see if the deposits they discover could have been produced by a given process. Stuart Kauffman, in his book “At Home in the Universe”, reasoned that an RNA-first world was too improbable, and rejected it merely for that reason. Was he being unscientific at that moment? What was his alternative hypothesis? Well if we want a form of testability for past events, then we can fall back on our present-day observations that 1) intelligent agents can create massive amounts of functioning complexity, and 2) that blind processes (once we have successfully located and subtracted out the intelligent inputs from the researchers) are unable to create anywhere near the same amount, I don’t see anything unscientific about reaching a conclusion. An uncountable number of confirming observations, and not a single dis-confirming one, is good enough for me. Again, are you saying that ID is strictly an historical science? Also, considering that the consensus scientific opinion is that some effects took millions of years to come about how long are you willing to wait to see if unguided, natural processes are sufficient? That's the other part of the design inference that I find faulty: it seems to me that there is absolutely no way that natural processes can have conceivably be ruled out. Not in 150 years. No way. JVL
Kairosfocus: you keep repeating why you think there is design in nature while I am asking a different question. If you're not going to actually pay attention to what someone is trying to discuss then why bother replying? JVL
ET: Seeing that JVL is just a quote-mining and scientifically illiterate fool, no answers will ever be good enough. I'm just trying to figure out why, if ID is a science, that it can't provide a test or experiment of an ID prediction, something that can be reproduced by many different observers. What is wrong with that? JVL
I wish you well wherever your journeys take you.
Prediction: He'll be back. But this is one prediction where I hope I am wrong. jerry
FH
Thanks for being such patient listeners and best wishes for the future.
I'll give you this - you didn't do anything worthy of getting banned here again, so that's a positive step. However, you're intransigent in your position and nothing has been able to help you accept the design inference. Proposing an absurdly improbable "frozen accident" instead of recognizing the work of intelligence is simply not a reasonable response.l In any case, I wish you well wherever your journeys take you. Silver Asiatic
Sorry, autocorrect mangled my last sentence. What I meant to say was “ Whether my expectations on others are met or not depends on them and on the perceived value of my expectations to them.” JHolo
JF: Do you understand yourself to be duty and even honour bound to truth, right reason, prudence including warrant, sound conscience, neighbour, so too fairness and justice?
No. At least not it the way you envision it. I.e., as devinely imposed duties, or duties that exist outside of the human individual. We have been all over this before but you have not made any attempt to understand those who disagree with you. I, as an individual, have imposed rules (duties) on my behaviour that I have found to be in my best interest of myself and those I wish to associate with, over the short and long term. As such, I have expectations of others that I choose to associate with. Whether my expectations on others are met or. It depends on them and on the perceived value of my expectations to them. JHolo
JVL @ 934, Thank you for your reply.
But how do you know if your inference is correct unless you can test it? Look, if ID is science then what science is it doing?
Some things, such as questions of a historical nature, can't be tested in the same way that we test other claims, such as questions of physics. There are different kinds of knowledge, and with each comes different degrees of certaint(ies). This is important to note. This means that testability (like our earlier comments on "making predictions") is not a universal criterion of all types of scientific inquiry. So if I cannot directly test a historical claim (like how something formed in the distant past), but can determine that one alternative has a probability so low that the universe can't have tried enough possibilities on its own, I am warranted in favoring a different alternative. Even non-ID folks use this kind of reasoning. Stuart Kauffman, in his book "At Home in the Universe", reasoned that an RNA-first world was too improbable, and rejected it merely for that reason. Was he being unscientific at that moment?
I don’t think you’re being scientific by just saying: ooo, such and such looks too improbable to have come about via unguided processes.
Well if we want a form of testability for past events, then we can fall back on our present-day observations that 1) intelligent agents can create massive amounts of functioning complexity, and 2) that blind processes (once we have successfully located and subtracted out the intelligent inputs from the researchers) are unable to create anywhere near the same amount, I don't see anything unscientific about reaching a conclusion. An uncountable number of confirming observations, and not a single dis-confirming one, is good enough for me. But there are research opportunities and fame here for you if you can demonstrate otherwise. EDTA
JVL, we just -- again -- discussed a case in point, text generation as part of an OP and you were present. OoL is a classic study, and the challenge there is to get to encapsulated, smart gated, metabolising entities with kinematic self replication. This last brings up coded information storage and execution machinery for algorithms. These and the like are not mysterious. FSCO/I is a fairly common phenomenon and we have observed trillions of cases of origin; without exception, intelligently directed configuration. You know the blind needle in haystack search challenge. You also know the per aspect design inference explanatory filter and its TWO defaults, I: lawlike mechanical necessity [explains low contingency results] and II: blind chance [explains high contingency but not HC with detachable simple specification, esp by function]. When these fail for complexity beyond 500 - 1,000 bits, we are warranted to infer the known consistent cause of such FSCO/I, intelligently directed configuration. Design is not a default assumption nor a stand in for unknown cause, not with trillions of cases in point consistently. KF kairosfocus
Seeing that JVL is just a quote-mining and scientifically illiterate fool, no answers will ever be good enough. And JVL will NEVER present anything for evolution by means of blind and mindless processes. ET
Fred Hickson:
Is that UB abandoning his hypothesis?
No, Alan. He is leaving a useless discussion with you, a useless human. ET
Fred Hickson:
Just because I can’t supply a ready answer does not mean I should throw in the towel and default to the non-explanation of “Design!”.
You are an idiot, Alan. Buy a dictionary and learn what the word "default" means. We reach the design inference after considering other options. And design is a great explanation- ask archaeologists and forensic scientists. Why do you think your ignorance of science and reality mean something?
I’ve yet to experience one, nor have I heard convincing evidence for such a thing.
Only a miracle would have nature producing coded information processing systems.
I prefer the simpler approach that if we don’t know something we can look for an answer.
All you "know" is how to lie and bluff. ET
Kairosfocus: the key prediction is that this principle will continue to hold, and to test and overturn it in future [it has already been tested on trillions of cases to get to here] all that is required is to produce a single reliable case of blind chance and or mechanical necessity per actual observation producing FSCO/I beyond 500 to 1,000 bits of complexity. So, your test of ID is actually a test of unguided processes? What kind of evidence of the above would you accept? In other words, what kind of experiment or test of blind chance or mechanical necessity would change your mind? JVL
JVL, you have been here for years, and you know better. Please, do better. You know that the design inference is an application of scientific abductive reasoning, inferring a best explanation on tested, reliable patterns, that functionally specific complex organisation and associated information [FSCO/I] on trillions of cases, reliably comes from intelligently directed configuration. There are no actually observed exceptions and blind needle in haystack search challenge in large configuration spaces sufficient to exhaust atomic resources of the sol system or observed cosmos readily shows why. As with the closely related statistical form of the second law of thermodynamics, the key prediction is that this principle will continue to hold, and to test and overturn it in future [it has already been tested on trillions of cases to get to here] all that is required is to produce a single reliable case of blind chance and or mechanical necessity per actual observation producing FSCO/I beyond 500 to 1,000 bits of complexity. That was tried many times in the past here at UD and elsewhere, but the attempts failed. Instead of acknowledging the point, rhetorical tactics were shifted, including the willful distortion that the design inference is untested, is incapable of being tested or makes no predictions. Fail. KF kairosfocus
EDTA: Even after I and several others went to great length to explain that predictions are not characteristic of all branches of science as a test of their scientific-ness, and that ID is also partly an inference arrived at by eliminating possibilities that are simply too improbably to put blind faith into. But how do you know if your inference is correct unless you can test it? Look, if ID is science then what science is it doing? I really don’t understand why you don’t incorporate our arguments into your thinking and then try to top them. Instead you repeat the same original arguments of yours over and over again. Can you explain that to me? Thanks. I don't think you're being scientific by just saying: ooo, such and such looks too improbable to have come about via unguided processes. That's just a negative argument. Why not consider what you'd expect to see under an ID system, make a prediction and then test to see if that happens? Otherwise, what good is ID if it doesn't tell us something that we can expect to see? JVL
"Is that UB abandoning his hypothesis?" "Alright, we'll call it a draw" - Monty Python - The Black Knight - Tis But A Scratch https://youtu.be/ZmInkxbvlCs?t=157 :) bornagain77
872 Upright BiPed July 8, 2022 at 11:42 am . Relatd, you can take it from here. Bye to all.
Missed this comment before. Is that UB abandoning his hypothesis? In which case, I commend his decision. He will have more time for more productive stuff. If UB really has quit, I may as well take my leave too. Anyone wishing to reach me can do so at fredhickson@protonmail.com Thanks for being such patient listeners and best wishes for the future. Fred Hickson
The discussions here would get better if detractors didn’t keep making the same old arguments over and over again, and could think up some new arguments to try to leapfrog ours. I guess that is just too much to ask.
Have you heard the story of the horses teeth? A lively discussion on how many teeth a horse has was interrupted by a young scholar saying "couldn't we just count them?". Reality is available if we just go and look. ETA http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=713157 Fred Hickson
It’s good you recognize that there is no known natural process that could create the output in question.
Just because I can't supply a ready answer does not mean I should throw in the towel and default to the non-explanation of "Design!". I'm comfortable with partial explanations and further research.
But while you might not like miracles...
I've yet to experience one, nor have I heard convincing evidence for such a thing.
...your frozen accident is one (or two actually – first, the virtually impossible alignment and second, that it was frozen and preserved in an environment hostile to it).
Virtually impossible alignment of what? More detail, please. Hostile environment? Again more detail please. In the pre-LUCA world, what would be hostile? Predators? The environment? I assume that environment and organism are in lockstep otherwise extinction is inevitable. Hostile environment, no organisms.
The ID proposal is that a codon was associated with a certain amino acid and not with another because the process was intelligently designed that way.
I prefer the simpler approach that if we don't know something we can look for an answer. Fred Hickson
FH
Anyone is invited to offer an explanation, preferably not involving miracles ... I already suggested a frozen accident.
It's good you recognize that there is no known natural process that could create the output in question. But while you might not like miracles your frozen accident is one (or two actually - first, the virtually impossible alignment and second, that it was frozen and preserved in an environment hostile to it). The ID proposal is that a codon was associated with a certain amino acid and not with another because the process was intelligently designed that way. Silver Asiatic
JH,
Maybe you can try to explain why homosexuality, same sex marriage,...are harmful. And see if you can do it without imposing religious beliefs.
Do you mean without relying on religious foundations? That has been done. BA77 has posted the following link (probably years ago now), which makes the case against same-sex marriage without relying on a religious foundation: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1722155 The discussions here would get better if detractors didn't keep making the same old arguments over and over again, and could think up some new arguments to try to leapfrog ours. I guess that is just too much to ask. EDTA
Intelligent Design predicts the same basic thing as archaeology and forensic science- namely, that when intelligent agencies act, they tend to leave traces of their actions behind. These traces may be uncovered at a later date when someone is trying to determine a cause for the effect they are observing and want to investigate. Intelligent Design says that irreducible complexity, specified complexity and complex specified information are such traces with respect to life on Earth. And we say that because in every instance that we have observed such traces and knew the cause, it was always via intelligent agency volition. AND, just as with archaeology and forensic science, all one has to do to refute that they are traces for ID, is to demonstrate that nature is up to the task. Which would be quite the feat seeing that nature had already been eliminated. It would be like glaciers and floods producing Stonehenge after centuries of saying it's an artifact. And we can predict, based on ID, there are or was, other intelligent beings in the universe. ET
JH (Attn FH): You both know my context, which makes your pretzel twisted strawman caricature all the more illustrative of the force of the underlying point. Do you understand yourself to be duty and even honour bound to truth, right reason, prudence including warrant, sound conscience, neighbour, so too fairness and justice? Do you acknowledge that these duties are branch on which we all sit first principles so that even objectors -- as you evidently are -- find themselves invariably appealing to these same first duties they are trying to overthrow? We know the answers based on exchanges some months back and further attempts since. You may not like the conclusion that in all prudence we draw for cause, but you full well know why. Disregard, for truth, for right reason, for sound warrant, for sound conscience and more. Indeed, it is utterly unsurprising to see those with this problem in support of the continued slaughter of our living posterity in the womb. And yes, it is commitments like those first duties which are part of the fabric of social capital that buttresses and stabilises a lawful, constitutional democratic community. The acid of amoral skepticism weakens those buttresses and so undermines stability of our civilisation and liberty under sound law and government. That is why unsound and blood drenched decrees under colour of law find support and find people who imagine that they can have a right to kill their living posterity at will. As for trying to remake personal identity, sense of sound sexual order, family life, family law and the like without due regard for principles tied to the core just outlined, that is utterly unsurprising also. For, not only are these first duties the core of moral government of our rational, responsible freedom, they are also first, built in law that articulates to sound frameworks for law and government. It is disregard for such first principles that leads to the sort of unsound nominalism and legal positivism that are eroding our civilisation's key supportive buttresses as we speak. Leading, to ever spreading chaos. As is evident all around. Where, no, this is not empty repetition, it is an analysis that points out what we need to heed but too many are disinclined to hear and wish to silence. An ill advised attitude if ever there was one. KF kairosfocus
The genetic code pertains to the building of proteins. Cells come from cells. And the genetic code definitely doesn’t determine biological form.
:) I wonder why darwinists "forgot" to mention that DNA code is in fact the simplest code that is found in the cell? The simplest and the most unsophisticated code that the scientists could figure out . The most complex seems to be the sugar code that is 100 times more complex than DNA. The peak of complexity is not inside the cell , is inside the brain. Lieutenant Commander Data
Jblais:
The genetic code IS a language. A programming language that is used to build living cells and living organisms.
Proteins. The genetic code pertains to the building of proteins. Cells come from cells. And the genetic code definitely doesn't determine biological form. The genetic code pertains to transcription and translation, ie the rules for taking the source code in DNA and producing the object code in a functioning protein, ie a specified polypeptide. ET
re 918 and 922: Jerry, your bemoaning the uselessness of discussions at this site is as uselessly repetitious as the discussions you denigrate. So I'm dropping in to ask you this serious question: why don't you leave, as I have effectively done? Or, as Dylan said in "Floater", "Why don’t you just shove off If it bothers you so much” Viola Lee
With all due respect, may I suggest you take a stance
This is an ignorant reply. I took a stance. And I can back it up. My point is whatever one says, it will lead nowhere on this site. jerry
JVL,
Nor, does it seem, can ID present any kind of testable prediction that we can check.
Still beating that drum, huh? Even after I and several others went to great length to explain that predictions are not characteristic of all branches of science as a test of their scientific-ness, and that ID is also partly an inference arrived at by eliminating possibilities that are simply too improbably to put blind faith into. I really don't understand why you don't incorporate our arguments into your thinking and then try to top them. Instead you repeat the same original arguments of yours over and over again. Can you explain that to me? Thanks. EDTA
Jerry at 918, With all due respect, may I suggest you take a stance and stick to it? As opposed to: this may be a bad thing but it may not be a bad thing. relatd
Maybe you can try to explain why homosexuality
:lol: Another one who doesn't know was is the purpose of the opening at the end of the alimentary canal through which solid waste matter leaves the body. Lieutenant Commander Data
see if you can do it without imposing religious beliefs.
I’m reluctant to try and answer this because it could lead to another 1000 useless comments. But the answer as to why oppose what you see as ok is that these activities could have serious negative effects on society, effects that might not show up for a few generations. Or it might not. At which point one could then argue that’s it’s ok to permit them. I can see at least a thousand comments as people rant on why one is preferable vs the other. Nothing gets decided here. It’s mainly a place to hold forth. jerry
JH at 916, JHolo, report to the Principal's Office. At the Principal's Office: P: I see you are accusing people of imposing their religious beliefs on you, and others, for no reason. Explain yourself. Why can't people express their religious beliefs without you assuming that they are imposing anything on you? This is happening on the internet only, right? relatd
KF: JH, enough was said for record. You will say whatever you want, on track record. KF
Enough has been said, multiple times. But repeating the same things over and over again do not make your arguments any more convincing. Maybe you can try to explain why homosexuality, same sex marriage, masturbation, transgender, premarital sex, etc are harmful. And see if you can do it without imposing religious beliefs. JHolo
Still running, huh Fred.
See what I mean? Futile! Fred Hickson
JH, enough was said for record. You will say whatever you want, on track record. KF kairosfocus
Relatd: You are very good at mischaracterizing ID. At its most basic, ID has predicted that design, not chance, is the answer. ID has not 'predicted' that. ID proponents have looked at the complexity of life on earth and declared that since they cannot understand or conceive of how natural processes could have brought about such things they must have been designed. That is not the same thing at all. In fact, the modern design movement played on the increased perception at how complex life is at its base. It did not predict that complexity. Nor, does it seem, can ID present any kind of testable prediction that we can check. The way you think science works is looking at fossils, for example, and deciding beforehand, that it must “fit” evolutionary theory – at all costs. If it doesn’t then an explanation is invented. Example: “evolution is fast except when it’s slow” or “certain animals change over time except when they don’t.” Fossils of a particular fish that is supposedly millions of years old show no change over that time period, while the earth has gone through changes, including catastrophic changes. You can misunderstand modern evolutionary theory all you like but that doesn't mean that ID is a 'better' explanation nor does it mean that ID has any kind of explanatory power by being able to present a testable prediction based on ID precepts. In the meantime, scientists are only discovering more not less complexity in living things. This drops the possibility of blind, unguided chance being responsible by orders of magnitude. Uh huh. Several hundred years ago the idea that the continents moved would have been considered ridiculous and laughable. Surely they were fixed in their positions. And then we found out that, actually, the situation was much more complex than that. And someone came up with an explanation, based on natural, unguided processes that accounted for all the complexity that we see. Or do you think that the designer moved the continents around as part of the big plan? That is my entire answer. Your questions, as phrased, ignore the obvious. Whatever happened, blind, unguided chance could not have done it. So, you have not provided a testable, ID based hypothesis. I shall take it to mean that you can't. Thank for replying. You could have just said 'no' much earlier and simplified things a lot. JVL
"science doesn’t really deal with “why” Still running, huh Fred. Andrew asauber
Why not start with “why a codon is associated with an amino acid and not another”.
I already suggested a frozen accident. I did quibble on "why" as science doesn't really deal with "why" questions, that's for philosophers. Why comment at Uncommon Descent? One reason, helps maintain my cognitive abilities. At my age, that's important. I'd ask you a question now but I've already discovered it's futile. Fred Hickson
JVL at 905, You are very good at mischaracterizing ID. At its most basic, ID has predicted that design, not chance, is the answer. The way you think science works is looking at fossils, for example, and deciding beforehand, that it must "fit" evolutionary theory - at all costs. If it doesn't then an explanation is invented. Example: "evolution is fast except when it's slow" or "certain animals change over time except when they don't." Fossils of a particular fish that is supposedly millions of years old show no change over that time period, while the earth has gone through changes, including catastrophic changes. In the meantime, scientists are only discovering more not less complexity in living things. This drops the possibility of blind, unguided chance being responsible by orders of magnitude. That is my entire answer. Your questions, as phrased, ignore the obvious. Whatever happened, blind, unguided chance could not have done it. relatd
"I don’t know the answer to “why is there a universe?”. Any idea, Andrew?" Fred, Why not start with "why a codon is associated with an amino acid and not another". or Why does Fred comment at UD? Andrew asauber
Ah, watch Fred fearfully avoiding the Big Questions.
I don't know the answer to "why is there a universe?". Any idea, Andrew? Fred Hickson
"No, not why, how." Ah, watch Fred fearfully avoiding the Big Questions. Andrew asauber
But you see, in the case of the genetic code, you need to explain why a codon is associated with an amino acid and not another.
No, not why, how. And is it just me? Anyone is invited to offer an explanation, preferably not involving miracles, or it's no shame to say "I don't know". Fred Hickson
Relatd: Why do you answer the question? Why bother asking me? Why shouldn't I ask you? You think ID is a science don't you? If so then can you suggest a test or experiment based on an ID prediction that we can check? Yes or no. If you don’t believe in God that’s up to you. Some of the greatest scientists gave God credit for their discoveries but that’s ignored. That's not really the point though is it. If ID is a science then it should have predictive and explanatory power. That means you should be able to give an example of an ID prediction that we can test. Can you do that? You make lots and lots of arguments about science but you don't seem to understand how it works. Curious. JVL
Just another fascinating fact. There are 64 possible codon sequences (four cubed) and all mean something. 61 code for an amino-acid, of which there are twenty, plus three stop codons. That means there should be 64 tRNAs to cover for the redundancy (some amino-acids have four alternative codons). But there aren't. In humans, there are fifteen missing. Fred Hickson
KF: JH, disregard for truth and for facts that are well established, as you know, goes way beyond mere disagreement.
You well know that posting thousands of convoluted phrases, repeatedly, does not constitute truth and facts. The fact that you can’t separate differences of opinion from lies speaks volumes. And not in your favour. For example, I accept that we differ on the issues of abortion, homosexuality, same sex marriage, transgendered, premarital sex, masturbation and other issues. And I am fine with that. Constructive disagreement and discussion makes for a healthy society. In fact, any society that doesn’t have fundamental and respectful disagreements is one that is dictatorial and oppressive. But, and please don’t take this in the wrong way, but you have shown that you are not capable of having vibrant, fundamental and constructive disagreements. Whenever I or anyone else disagrees with you, you pull out the strawman, red herring, ad hominem, nihilist, speaking in disregard to truth, sitting on the branch, heading over the Cliff, rhetorical talking points nonsense. But this is off topic and getting in to personality flaws, which I don’t want to do. I hope you have a good weekend. JHolo
The complex complexity of complex things is complex. And people can post complex things and say, ‘I don’t understand’ and avoid being clear about anything
That’s usually called incoherence or gobbledygook. For those interested in complexity, the Great Courses has their course on it on sale today $12.95 https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/understanding-complexity Aside: even the most complex reality can usually be explained in a short paragraph with clear declarative sentences. Obviously fuller understanding takes more in-depth analysis. jerry
JB, thanks for weighing in. KF kairosfocus
JH, disregard for truth and for facts that are well established, as you know, goes way beyond mere disagreement. And that way beyond is, sadly, what we have been seeing. When even Wikipedia's editors cannot dodge a point, and when we see DNA being seriously investigated towards use as archival store, that should be telling us something. KF kairosfocus
Q, we are seeing FH's goose being plucked above, and we are seeing his attempts to deflect. They fail. KF kairosfocus
Bornagain77 at 896 Perry Marshall is a very wise guy. He understood things about biology that many biologists never will... Jblais
"Well, how else does the specific aaRS bind to the specific amino-acid? How else does the tRNA get tagged on to the appropriate amino-acid? It’s by shape, charge etc so molecules fit their binding sites." Ah, I think I now see where the confusion comes from. Of course molecules bind according to stereochemical properties. But you see, in the case of the genetic code, you need to explain why a codon is associated with an amino acid and not another. As you said yourself previously, its arbitrary. This arbitrariness is unknown in any other area of chemistry. And you can't invoke stereochemistry to explain it because they never directly bind to each other if left alone. In order to do so, they need a specific "machine/adaptor" that will plug them together. As I said, the stereochemical hypothesis (that codons and amino acids correspondance in the genetic code is due to chemical necessity) for the origin of the genetic code is not considered a plausible hypothesis by most authors in the litterature since there is little if any evidence in its favor. Jblais
Jblais, since you, (and UB), are in a somewhat similar position, I think you might find this amusing.
DNA proves the existence of God - Perry Marshall - Aug 5, 2011 For 5 years and counting, I have successfully advanced the Information Theory argument for Intelligent Design on Infidels, the world's largest Atheist discussion forum.,,, My Central Thesis 1) DNA IS NOT MERELY A MOLECULE WITH A PATTERN; IT IS A CODE, A LANGUAGE, AND AN INFORMATION STORAGE MECHANISM. 2) ALL CODES ARE CREATED BY A CONSCIOUS MIND; THERE IS NO NATURAL PROCESS KNOWN TO SCIENCE THAT CREATES CODED INFORMATION. 3) THEREFORE DNA WAS DESIGNED BY A MIND. IF YOU CAN PROVIDE AN EMPIRICAL EXAMPLE OF A CODE OR LANGUAGE THAT OCCURS NATURALLY, YOU'VE TOPPLED MY PROOF. ALL YOU NEED IS ONE. The discussion continued for more than 4 months and 300 posts. At the end, nearly all participants dropped out, having failed to topple my proof or produce any new objections that had not already been addressed. In the course of a very detailed and vigorous discussion my argument did not suffer the slightest injury.,,, On this discussion board I rigorously demonstrated that an Intelligent Designer is the only available explanation for the genetic code in DNA. I did so in the same manner that we assert the truth of other scientific theorems, like the laws of thermodynamics. But I couldn't get a congregation of hard-core atheists to accept it – which goes to show that Dale Carnegie was right: "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." Here, atheists show themselves to be just as devout in their beliefs, and just as steadfast in the face of reason, as the adherents of any world religion. https://www.vina.cc/2011/08/05/dna-proves-the-existence-of-god/
Of note, Perry Marshall has now organized a 10 million dollar prize for anyone who can prove that unguided processes can create a code
Evolution 2.0 Prize: Unprecedented $10 Million Offered To Replicate Cellular Evolution - 2020 An incentive prize ten times the size of the Nobel – believed to be the largest single award ever in basic science – is being offered to the person or team solving the largest mystery in history: how genetic code inside cells got there, and how cells intentionally self-organize, communicate, then purposely adapt. This $10 million challenge, the Evolution 2.0 Prize can be found at www.evo2.org. https://www.prnewswire.com/in/news-releases/evolution-2-0-prize-unprecedented-10-million-offered-to-replicate-cellular-evolution-875038146.html Callenge Overview https://www.herox.com/evolution2.0?_ga=2.82975894.1477751053.1657306080-395362688.1657114367
bornagain77
FH at 894, When all else fails, bring up "the Catholic God." Uh huh. Try to stay on topic... relatd
Relatd, I thought you said the Catholic God was the answer to everything. Fred Hickson
I am developing a theory. Complex complexity cannot be explained here because some people don't want to. Why? I suspect it's to cause confusion as opposed to finding actual answers to actual questions. That's not a good thing for any actual discussion. relatd
That’s one of the amazing facts about this process. There’s no physical interface. This drives a steamroller through the idea of stereochemical matching.
This is the interesting part of the discussion. But you are not following closely. Nobody, certainly not me, is arguing for a direct stereochemical link between codon and tRNA. The association is completely arbitrary. Fred Hickson
Upright Biped @837,
If so, please provide an example of another system known to the physical sciences that uses that architecture – one that does not entail language.
Interesting point. Genetics is not merely "analogous" to computer programming, but it IS programming, just employing different means to capture designed responses and relationships. Both genetic and computer programming is done by means of a "language," which itself consists of higher and lower level communication including, in the case of computer programming, direct, non-symbolic, mechanistic manipulation of bits in the form of charges and magnetic domains. Is this also true of genetic programming? The existence and efficacy of programmable biological computers makes the point: https://www.online-sciences.com/computer/biological-computers-mechanism-uses-pros-and-cons/ Animals are extremely sensitive to postures, actions, sounds and smells that are sometimes symbolic, sometimes not. No dog trainer doubts that dogs have a language. So, back to your challenge. In the physical sciences, shapes interact with one another. For example, a fallen tree can form a first-class lever with a boulder as the fulcrum. This can happen naturally and spontaneously. The 1948 Omega Seamaster calendar watch on my wrist contains many interacting shapes, including levers. But does its design constitute a language? I would say, yes. The complex workings of my watch includes several behaviors embodied in subassemblies, including advancing the date and automatic mechanical winding. The types of mechanical behaviors in each of them likely come from a "library" (or dictionary) of mechanisms. The mechanical programming of my watch includes advancing the date every two complete revolutions of the hour hand and my ability to quickly advance the date by moving the minute hand back to 15 minutes before midnight several times in succession. The comparison of a first-class lever formed naturally by accident is comparable to my watch only by kind, not by degree or amount of information. Of course, this doesn't address natural or artificial selection. This could be simulated in a mechanical environment on a vibration table and a patient technician ready to fish out the reassembled watch. One might try to make the case that any misassembled subassemblies should be fished out and disassembled as well. -Q Querius
FH at 889, Hey buddy! I got yer RNA World right here! relatd
...no such stereochemical relations between codons/anticodons and amino acids currently exists because they don’t even come in physical contact with each other when they bind to their aaRS.
I agree. I think UB also agrees. The connection seems arbitrary, a frozen accident, perhaps. Impossible to, explain in evolutionary terms if we need everything to happen at once. In the RNA world scenario, however... Fred Hickson
“The interesting bit is the arbitrary connection between aminoacid docking and tRNA charging by the aaRSs.”
Yes ! Not only is this the interesting bit, it’s also the bit that’s obviously not stereochemical and that needs to be explained because that’s what defines the code. That’s precisely what stands in need of explanation !
Well, how else does the specific aaRS bind to the specific amino-acid? How else does the tRNA get tagged on to the appropriate amino-acid? It's by shape, charge etc so molecules fit their binding sites. I call that stereochemistry. UB uses the word "physicochemical" affinity. Fred Hickson
Jerry at 886, Don't you understand? The complex complexity of complex things is complex. And people can post complex things and say, 'I don't understand' and avoid being clear about anything. relatd
I predict no discussion progress will be made
It would be a first on UD if it did. The best description of this site is "Much Ado About Nothing." Aside: not completely true. On rare occasions something interesting is said. jerry
FH at 881, Keep using those twenty dollar words. You seem to get a kick out of it. Otherwise, I predict no discussion progress will be made - the evidence is overwhelming. relatd
"The interesting bit is the arbitrary connection between aminoacid docking and tRNA charging by the aaRSs." Yes ! Not only is this the interesting bit, it's also the bit that's obviously not stereochemical and that needs to be explained because that's what defines the code. That's precisely what stands in need of explanation ! Jblais
"It is still stereochemistry. " Wrong. Read the litterature about the genetic code. The stereochemical hypothesis has never been found to explain the genetic code. For that to be the case, codons/anticodons and the amino acids they specifiy would need to bind by chemical neccessity. No one has ever found any evidence that this is the case. As I said, in all living cells found on the planet today, no such stereochemical relations between codons/anticodons and amino acids currently exists because they don't even come in physical contact with each other when they bind to their aaRS. Some people have speculated that such stereochemical relation might exist and that it might help to explain the origin of the code but so far, no evidence for that has been found. Jblais
jblais
there’s not even any physical contact between the anti-codon of the tRNA and the amino acid when they bind to the aaRS
That's one of the amazing facts about this process. There's no physical interface. This drives a steamroller through the idea of stereochemical matching. Silver Asiatic
Don't forget the hydrogen bond, Relatd. The serious point is that molecules in Brownian motion are associating and disassociating according to stereochemical structure and energy levels. They are not talking to each other. Fred Hickson
relatd
Your political ideology drives you.
Fred had this to say recently:
[I] became very involved in internet discussions beginning 2005, with the events around the Kitzmiller v. Dover School Board ...
A highly politicized event was the springboard for action. Silver Asiatic
FH at 878, I'm working on a play called Stereochemistry... :) relatd
The code is the matching between codons/anticodons and amino acids.
It is still stereochemistry. The interesting bit is the arbitrary connection between aminoacid docking and tRNA charging by the aaRSs. How could they have evolved? We seem to be away in the rough. Fred Hickson
FH
I sometimes use coded language with my wife. But they not the same thing
An analogy does not mean that the two things compared are "the same thing". You've said repeatedly that there is no analogy between genetic information and language. But I think what you meant is "DNA is not a human language". They're not the same thing. Good point. Yes, I don't recall seeing any humans speaking to each other in DNA code. So, it's good you pointed that out to everyone. But as for DNA not in any way (your quote) being analogous to human language? No. Again, "analogy" does not mean "exact equivalent". It means that there is a similarity between the two. The denial that there is a similarity between DNA and language is one of those things that help the argument that the origin of DNA was from a blind, mindless source - and can thereby develop easily from copy errors and natural selection. Silver Asiatic
FH at 875, Just say stereochemistry over and over. And over and :) relatd
The answer is the one I gave at the top, as stated in the literature.
Well, I'll agree for the sake of argument that languages use shared verbal symbols, referents etc. There is no useful analogy between that and what a codon is. Sure, modeling using letters of the alphabet is handy shorthand but the reality is stereochemistry all the way down. Fred Hickson
FH at 870, I'm an individual not a parrot. No boilerplate on me. Get over it, Fred. Your political ideology drives you. It's time to examine some ridiculous statements and call them ridiculous. relatd
"The codons and anticodons match due to stereochemistry, not syntax." You're confused. The code is the matching between codons/anticodons and amino acids, not between codons and anti-codons. Look up a genetic code table. Again, stereochemistry has nothing to do with it because there's not even any physical contact between the anti-codon of the tRNA and the amino acid when they bind to the aaRS. You keep insisting that the explanation of the code lies in stereochemistry, this is simply wrong and has been known for ages. Jblais
. Relatd, you can take it from here. Bye to all. Upright BiPed
JVL at 868, Why do you answer the question? Why bother asking me? If you don't believe in God that's up to you. Some of the greatest scientists gave God credit for their discoveries but that's ignored. Science has become god for some. 'Show me God. If you can show me God I might believe in him.' relatd
I have to say, Relatd, that is the ID boilerplate argument clear and unadorned. I commend you for your straightforward clarification. Fred Hickson
.
UB: A language system is an identifiable physical organization. It has distinct parts with physical and organizational criteria that are well known. There are two places that the physical sciences can document this organization; one of them is in written language and the other is in the gene system. Fred can deny this as he chooses, but his denial won’t change the facts recorded in the literature over the past 50+ years. Fred: Well, that’s vague enough to be undeniable. So what? UB: Fred does the gene system utilize a rate-independent medium, where the spatial orientation of objects within a finite set of symbol vehicles (codons) is used to distinguish one referent from another? Is the end result of the process contingent on memory (description) of a set of constraints that establish the relationships between the codons and their referents? If so, please provide an example of another system known to the physical sciences that uses that architecture – one that does not entail language. Fred: The genetic code and how it functions with DNA and RNA and aaRSs relies at all points on stereochemical affinities UB: All physical objects obey physical law, that is hardly the question. Are you able to provide an example of another system known to the physical sciences that uses that architecture – one that does not also entail language – or are you not able? It was your claim, so support it. Fred: Tell you what Upright Biped. You choose whatever answer you would like and proceed from there. It’s boring playing gotcha with you.
The answer is the one I gave at the top, as stated in the literature. Upright BiPed
Relatd: Miracles are investigated by the Congregation for Saints Causes. In case after case, including an investigation involving Naval personnel that included clear evidence of impossible things happening, the only conclusion they could draw was that they had no scientific explanation. That still doesn't answer my question: Can we do science with God? In other words: can we check a God-based prediction and repeat that If not that's fine. I'm happy if you say no, we can't do God-based science. JVL
The Language of DNA https://www.crigenetics.com/blog/the-language-of-dna Each codon designates an amino acid. For example, the codon TAT codes for the amino acid Tyrosine. If we continue our analogy, this makes each codon a “word.” But words alone aren’t enough to convey meaning. You need to string words together to form sentences. In the same way, amino acids combine together through DNA translation to form proteins. To continue the metaphor of language, sentences aren’t the only part of a written document. Writers clump similar sentences together into paragraphs. And the same is true for proteins. Individual units of protein may come together to form something larger than themselves. Silver Asiatic
FH at 864, Back to mindlessly quoting from the Leftist handbook, Behaviors and Characteristics of ALL Conservatives? Wake up Fred. Are people individuals? Do the police arrest everyone at the scene of a crime? While Leftists promote TOTALLY idiotic concepts like non-binary, you think all Conservatives are cookie-cutter copies of each other? WAKE up - now. From the moment I saw candidate Trump, I had two thoughts: This man is rude and uncivilized and two, he is not suitable to be the President of anything, much less a country. relatd
JVL at 861, Even the Catholic Church understands what science does. How it works. However, it's evident that some scientific claims cannot be demonstrated. Like the origin of a digital code in DNA. Miracles are investigated by the Congregation for Saints Causes. In case after case, including an investigation involving Naval personnel that included clear evidence of impossible things happening, the only conclusion they could draw was that they had no scientific explanation. So it is clear that there is an area beyond science where it can see evidence of the impossible but not know what it means. The Catholic Church can provide the rest of the story, the full answer. Man, for example, cannot be explained in purely scientific terms. relatd
Hey. Don’t take out your anti-Catholic rage on me. Checks notes. I was right. I cannot appoint anyone to the Supreme Court. So leave me alone.
I'll let you off if you didn't vote for Trump. Fred Hickson
I suggest you translate everything you write into plain English.
You should tell that to UB.
That way, there can be no translation errors or definition errors. People, average people, do not use stereochemistry or syntax in everyday conversations.
Absolutely correct, Relatd. What time is it? Fred Hickson
FH at 859, Hey. Don't take out your anti-Catholic rage on me. Checks notes. I was right. I cannot appoint anyone to the Supreme Court. So leave me alone. relatd
Relatd: My answer, and the answer of the Catholic Church regarding the identity of the designer is God. Can we do science with God? Can we test a God-based prediction? I'm happy for your faith and will defend to the death your right to hold it. But that doesn't make it science. Science is about predictable and repeatable phenomenon, independent of the observer(s). I've heard that God works from known and understood moral standards so you'd think you could provide a predictable, God-based outcome. But I've yet to see such a thing. Not saying it doesn't exist, just that I haven't seen one. JVL
FH at 856, I suggest you translate everything you write into plain English. That way, there can be no translation errors or definition errors. People, average people, do not use stereochemistry or syntax in everyday conversations. https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/chemistry/stereochemistry relatd
Well your Catholic Supreme Court is doing just that, Relatd. And don't get me started on Tuam. Fred Hickson
FH at 857, Oh no! I have not committed the SECULAR sin of "imposing." Cut the crap, OK? Everybody writes what they want, but the moment I mention God or religion, I'm imposing on others? Crap. relatd
My answer, and the answer of the Catholic Church regarding the identity of the designer is God.
That's fine, Relatd, and you are entitled to make that choice for you but not impose it on others. There do seem a lot of Catholics here at Uncommon Descent. Fred Hickson
@ Jblais Apart from anything else, the genetic code doesn't have any linguistic rules. The codons and anticodons match due to stereochemistry, not syntax. Fred Hickson
FH at 845, DNA is a digital code. There is no evidence of natural processes producing anything like this. Anything with this level of complexity. Evolution, as advertised in Biology textbooks, is false. Design is the correct answer. Whoever did the designing was intelligent. In other words, the opposite of blind, unguided chance. My answer, and the answer of the Catholic Church regarding the identity of the designer is God. relatd
Yes, Jblais, I certainly don't confuse a language with a code. In discussing both concepts, there may be an overlap. I sometimes use coded language with my wife. But they not the same thing. Fred Hickson
"You are as capable of citing definitions as I am." Indeed, I define both languages and codes as systems of symbolic representation involving syntax and semantics. You must define them differently I guess. Jblais
Tell you what Upright Biped. You choose whatever answer you would like and proceed from there. It's boring playing gotcha with you. Fred Hickson
. So, no answer. Okay. Upright BiPed
It was your claim, so support it.
What was my claim? Can you cite it? Quote my exact words, perhaps? Fred Hickson
But that doesn’t answer the question.
You are as capable of citing definitions as I am.
Why exactly do you think there’s a difference ?
Why? Why anything! There is no ultimate answer to why, other than your Creator (then why a Creator!) or I don't know. Fred Hickson
.
UB: Fred does the gene system utilize a rate-independent medium, where the spatial orientation of objects within a finite set of symbol vehicles (codons) is used to distinguish one referent from another? Is the end result of the process contingent on memory (description) of a set of constraints that establish the relationships between the codons and their referents? If so, please provide an example of another system known to the physical sciences that uses that architecture – one that does not entail language. Fred: The genetic code and how it functions with DNA and RNA and aaRSs relies at all points on stereochemical affinities
All physical objects obey physical law, that is hardly the question. Are you able to provide an example of another system known to the physical sciences that uses that architecture – one that does not also entail language - or are you not able? It was your claim, so support it Upright BiPed
Querius: “I can see that I’ve won the argument by your resorting to abuse.” I think one warning should be sufficient. Tell that to ET. JVL
Kairosfocus @804,
Q, the just above shows one of the problems with the ignore the trolls model, giving them free rhetorical kicks at goal and undermining the force of the points we have to make.
You may be right. Also consider what the hierarchies of goals of a typical troll. They could include a. To waste the time and energy of serious contributors. b. To create a hostile, confrontational, and intimidating environment. c. To disrupt or sidetrack a conversation.
Instead, I think we can first treat objectors as reasonable people.
Yes, absolutely!
Those who resort to rhetorical stunts, misrepresentations and fallacies can be exposed.
I think identifying rhetorical stunts, etc. is better than responding to them directly. As Proverbs warns, "Do not answer a fool according to his folly lest he become wise in his own eyes" and "Answer a fool as his folly deserves." Not in the Bible, but also one of my favorites is, "Don't wrestle with a pig. You both get muddy and the pig likes it."
Those who become snide, we can further expose for their evasions, distractions and toxic tone. Beyond a certain point, we can point out that they have been definitively answered, with links; the repeating the failed arguments game is thus exposed.
I like this stratified approach.
Those who cross the line into abuse, get banned. In the case of FH, by his own words, he has been banned several times, of course he wants to suggest that we are censoring what we cannot cogently answer [hence the reply just above, demonstrating the contrary for record], but there is reason to believe that overwhelmingly banning from UD has been for cause. KF
Yes, good. A common expression in the UK, is/was something like "I can see that I've won the argument by your resorting to abuse." I think one warning should be sufficient. Thanks, -Q Querius
Relatd, What point are you making with the link to that article which at first glance seems uncontroversial? Fred Hickson
If so, please provide an example of another system known to the physical sciences that uses that architecture – one that does not entail language.
What architecture? Why do you ask me, who sees no useful connection between linguistics and how the genetic code works in cellular metabolism. Fred Hickson
From the journal, Nature: The digital code of DNA https://www.nature.com/articles/nature01410 relatd
"English is a language. Yes. English is a code. No... of course language can be written in code. Doesn’t make code language" But that doesn't answer the question. Why exactly do you think there's a difference ? Jblais
Fred does the gene system utilize a rate-independent medium, where the spatial orientation of objects within a finite set of symbol vehicles (codons) is used to distinguish one referent from another?
The genetic code and how it functions with DNA and RNA and aaRSs relies at all points on stereochemical affinities (hydrogen bonding is crucial) and being powered by ATP. Why not call codons codons? Fred Hickson
Can you then tell me what the difference is between the two ?
English is a language. Yes. English is a code. No. Now, of course language can be written in code. Doesn't make code language, only that a code may be used to represent, store and transmit a statement that can be decoded back into a linguistic statement. And yes there is a poor analogy with the genetic code that adds nothing to understanding linguistics from biochemistry or vice versa. Fred Hickson
FH at 834, "inherent properties" [said with a Brooklyn accent] Hey buddy! I got yer inherent properties right here! relatd
"If that were so, we wouldn’t need two words" Can you then tell me what the difference is between the two ? Jblais
. Fred, Fred does the gene system utilize a rate-independent medium, where the spatial orientation of objects within a finite set of symbol vehicles (codons) is used to distinguish one referent from another? Is the end result of the process contingent on memory (description) of a set of constraints that establish the relationships between the codons and their referents? If so, please provide an example of another system known to the physical sciences that uses that architecture - one that does not entail language. Upright BiPed
"Stereochemical relationships between molecules are the heart of the process." There is simply no stereochemical relationships between codons and the amino acids they represent. As you said yourself: "The disconnection at the point of the aaRS charging aminoacid to tRNA is the heart of the discussion." Indeed, the absence of any contact between amino acids and tRNA at their respective binding sites on the aaRS before they are linked together insures that stereochemistry plays no role. Variations of the code do exist, testifying to the arbitrariness of the genetic code. So far, nobody has ever found any plausible stereochemical explanation of the genetic code. Jblais
A code is a language and a language is a code.
If that were so, we wouldn't need two words Fred Hickson
The double helical structure of DNA molecules is obviously not what is responsible for the genetic code.
It's inherent properties make it the almost universal medium for storing genetic information as well as replication and translation.
The code is based on the sequencial alignment of nucleotides along one strand.
The sequence of codons determines any output to RNA and protein sequences (leaving aside gene switches, introns etc), yes.
Any sequence is possible and the code is arbitrary.
Yes.
Any codon could specify any amino acids.
As Upright Biped points out, the aaRSs could in theory specify aminoacids to different codons. The universal case is arbitrary.
No stereochemical principle has ever been found to explain the genetic code.
Stereochemical relationships between molecules are the heart of the process. The disconnection at the point of the aaRS charging aminoacid to tRNA is the heart of the discussion. Fred Hickson
"What has atheism to do with a discussion on the evolution of the genetic code?" Someone holding on an a priori metaphysical assumption that the fundamental ontology of the world is mindless (like atheists do), will rule out any possibility that something having inherent intentionality (a property of minds) like a language or code, could govern the behaviors of molecules. The only explanation I see for the absurd denial of the obvious fact that the genetic code is a code seems to be this a priori metaphysical committment. Similarly, consistent physicalists are led to eliminitavism despite its self-refuting nature, because their metaphysical committment rules out the possibility of first-person conciousness existing in the first place. Jblais
Are some people here who believe that they are psychiatrists ...obviously they aren't. Maybe they are well-intentioned but this is not enough to become a qualified psychiatrist. Lieutenant Commander Data
"That’s a bit of a goalpost move, now you’ve dropped the word “linguistic”." No it's not. A code is a language and a language is a code. Remember the definition: a system of symbolic representation with a syntax and semantics. You can e.g. use the morse code to talk to someone... Jblais
@ Jblais What has atheism to do with a discussion on the evolution of the genetic code? Fred Hickson
Whether you find it weird or not, life is based on a code. The code has been discovered by a code breaker (Francis Crick) decades ago. That’s not controversial.
That's a bit of a goalpost move, now you've dropped the word "linguistic". I'm not disputing that DNA sequences in genes store information. Fred Hickson
There are two places that the physical sciences can document this organization; one of them is in written language and the other is in the gene system.
There's organisation in human language communication, though that is arbitrary. The same conventions do not apply in English and Chinese. The genetic code is almost completely universal. But a particular codon sequence will produce a particular protein with particular bioactivity. There are no linguistic variations here... Unless, of course Darwinian evolution sifts variation to produce change. Perhaps you have a point in that language evolution and biological evolution are to an extent analogous. Fred Hickson
Fred Hickson at 823 "Life a linguistic concept? That’s just weird. " I know you find it weird but perhaps you could ask yourself why you find it so weird ? I suggest that it is because you have a priori assumptions about what is possible and what is not because of metaphysical committment to atheism. Whether you find it weird or not, life is based on a code. The code has been discovered by a code breaker (Francis Crick) decades ago. That's not controversial. Jblais
Fred Hickson at 821 "Nothing is added to our knowledge by suggesting any of this is like a language." I'm afraid you don't understand the point. Nobody is "suggesting" that the genetic code "is like a language". The genetic code simply has all the necessary and sufficient properties that define a language, therefore that's what it is. When something fits a definition, then what is specified by the definition applies to it. The genetic code is, guess what, a code ! "DNA has inherent stereochemical properties that result in the complementary double helix..." The double helical structure of DNA molecules is obviously not what is responsible for the genetic code. The code is based on the sequencial alignment of nucleotides along one strand. Any sequence is possible and the code is arbitrary. Any codon could specifiy any amino acids. No stereochemical principle has ever been found to explain the genetic code. Again, don't let your philosophical presuppositions blind you. Willful blindness is not a promising approach. Jblais
And just to be clear, Fred Hickson is a physicalist. I'm intrigued to note that Upright Biped is too. Fred Hickson
A language system is an identifiable physical organization.
Well, that's vague enough to be undeniable. So what? Fred Hickson
Jblais
I know that the philosophical implications of the fact that life is at its core a linguistic phenomenon can be disturbing, even frightening.
Life a linguistic concept? That's just weird. And I can't recall anyone making that claim before. I certainly don't find it disturbing; I find it risible. Is this claim unique to you? Fred Hickson
. A language system is an identifiable physical organization. It has distinct parts with physical and organizational criteria that are well known. There are two places that the physical sciences can document this organization; one of them is in written language and the other is in the gene system. Fred can deny this as he chooses, but his denial won’t change the facts recorded in the literature over the past 50+ years. Upright BiPed
Jblais
The genetic code is a language that talks about proteins.
DNA is the medium by which the vast majority of known living organisms store their genetic information which includes (encodes, if you like) the instructions for the synthesis of the essential class of bioactive molecules, proteins as well as the various essential RNAs. DNA has inherent stereochemical properties that result in the complementary double helix in which both strands are templates for replication of the genome. Nothing is added to our knowledge by suggesting any of this is like a language. Fred Hickson
FH: Good grief. Does this line of talking work with anyone else you have encountered, online or in real life?
Between this and the claims of speaking with disregard to truth simply because you disagree with him, and subsequent claims of negative credibility, certainly do make me laugh. JHolo
Fred Hickson at 802 "There’s an assumption in your question that the genetic code has some analogical connection with linguistics. That is not the case." It's not an assumption and it's not an analogy. The genetic code IS a language. A programming language that is used to build living cells and living organisms. That's the reason why the field of bio-informatics exists. We don't talk about physical-informatics, or chemical-informatics, even though computers are of course used in these fields but we created the field of bio-informatics because studying genomes is studying coded programs like in everyday informatics ! A language is simply a system of symbolic representation with a syntax and semantics. The genetic code fits the definition, therefore that's what it is. Symbolic representation simply means that something stands for something it is not identical to. Nucleic acids are not the same type of molecules than amino acids. Nucleic acids symbolically represent amino acids in the genetic code. The genetic code is a language that talks about proteins. The syntax is set out in terms of codons, exons and genes. Syntactic operators include start and stop codons, introns, untranscribed and untranslated regions, various epigenetic tags, etc... The semantics (meaning) is defined by codons symbolically representing amino acids, and genes representing proteins. A given codon of the code means a specific amino acid to the exclusion of all others. A given gene of the genome means a specific protein to the exclusion of others, etc... As an illustration, certain mutations only affect the syntax. Bu that violation of syntactic rules wreck the meaning (the semantics). These are called non-sense and frameshift mutations and are pretty much universally strongly deleterious. No professional biologist, biochemist, geneticist or bioinformatician worthy of the name denies that the genetic code is a code. It's in all textbooks covering these subjects. This sort of claim is only found on online forum or on twitter. I know that the philosophical implications of the fact that life is at its core a linguistic phenomenon can be disturbing, even frightening. But don't let your metaphysical preferences and a priori commitment to certain worldviews lead you to deny reality. Denial is never a fruitful strategy. Jblais
Fred Hickson:
But it would be fun to get back to the issue of UB’s assertion that such a system (the DNA code and aaRSs) could not evolve.
Stop being so dishonest. The assertion is that genetic code could not have arisen by evolution BY MEANS OF BLIND AND MINDLESS PROCESSES. You are clearly proud of being an equivocating coward. ET
Fred conflates the genetic code with DNA and templating. The genetic code is a language, Fred. It is a language of the cell. DNA is only part of the genetic code. DNA is an information carrier. You are seriously clueless. ET
Fred Hickson:
There’s an assumption in your question that the genetic code has some analogical connection with linguistics. That is not the case.
You think that your opinion is meaningful. That is not the case. ET
F/N2: having shown that even Wiki's notorious moderators know better than to attempt the sort of denial FH has tried, we can proceed to deal with the abuse of disanalogy. We again start with what Wiki's notorious moderators have been forced to concede. They would never allow the following, if they did not have to on the strength of the evidence:
Analogy plays a significant role in problem solving, as well as decision making, argumentation, perception, generalization, memory, creativity, invention, prediction, emotion, explanation, conceptualization and communication. It lies behind basic tasks such as the identification of places, objects and people, for example, in face perception and facial recognition systems. It has been argued that analogy is "the core of cognition".[3] Specific analogical language comprises exemplification, comparisons, metaphors, similes, allegories, and parables, but not metonymy. Phrases like and so on, and the like, as if, and the very word like also rely on an analogical understanding by the receiver of a message including them. Analogy is important not only in ordinary language and common sense (where proverbs and idioms give many examples of its application) but also in science, philosophy, law and the humanities. The concepts of association, comparison, correspondence, mathematical and morphological homology, homomorphism, iconicity, isomorphism, metaphor, resemblance, and similarity are closely related to analogy. In cognitive linguistics, the notion of conceptual metaphor may be equivalent to that of analogy. Analogy is also a basis for any comparative arguments as well as experiments whose results are transmitted to objects that have been not under examination (e.g., experiments on rats when results are applied to humans).
Comparison and recognition of evident similarity [and contrast], as well as the likelihood that relevantly like things tend to act alike, are indeed at the heart of thinking about a going concern world full of items that cluster by family resemblance. Is this of similar power to deductive chains? No, deduction is about certainty of logical consequence, once it is correct. Of course if the hook from which all hangs is false, then the chain may be valid but is not sound. Similarly, if a step in the chain is wrong, the argument becomes invalid. Deductive argument depends crucially on premises, and on correct reasoning. How do we come to know premises are true as opposed to merely assumed, why by "experience" and "reflection" involving cognitive processes very much as just seen. So, we should know that analogy is to be respected and used with due caution. The pivot is, like-ness. Here, we go to the root of right reason, distinct identity. A is itself, A, i/l/o its core, defining characteristics. These often overlap with other items that are similar to some degree, and may be recognised by family resemblance . . . a species of analogy. We may firm that up, e.g. knowing that whether a pendulum bob is painted red or blue is unlikely to influence its period of swing. (And notice, how argument by instructive example is a case of analogy at work.) So, the issue is not that analogies may fail, but that analogies are in the heart of our reasoning and so must be carefully managed. In the relevant case, we can say, yes a digital memory device holding a binary string data structure is comparable to DNA, or that strings of alphanumeric characters are vaguely similar to DNA. But we are not locked to simple comparison. We have a whole science, computer science, and linked algebras [there are many algebras out there] that allow us to inject general analysis. Here, we know that registers often exhibit s-t-r-i-n-g data structures, and we know that binary digital is not the only form of discrete state element. Our numbering system based on 10 is a ten state digital system. Alphanumeric characters and similar items form an extensive scheme through UNICODE, with thousands of discrete states, for convenience reduced to bit strings. Back in the old days, the Russians created three state element computers, and indeed, high Z and indifference/don't care states are found in many predominantly binary digital systems. Likewise, algorithms are not bound to binary systems, an algorithm is a goal-directed, finite stepwise procedure with halting. Codes are structured rule frameworks that allow us to use discrete state elements to express and sometimes to conceal information. They need not be confined to binary digital forms, though such are convenient. These general results, and others like them, allow us to recognise other instantiations of the generic patterns, so we can readily see that D/RNA strings are storage registers, typically expressing the genetic code, and that they can be and are often used for expressing algorithms in a machine code for D/RNA. The biochemistry and polymer science are implementation technologies [much as the steel technology is for tools and knives], they do not constitute the whole relevant nature of the system. the Tanenbaum layercake approach with physical layer on the bottom is instructive. Consequently, we can see that codes are linguistic, inherently. Likewise, that algorithms are reflective of purpose and technique, ART. The shocker is to find such in the cell using molecular nanotech. That becomes good reason to infer design. Which is what is being stoutly resisted at any cost. KF kairosfocus
F/N: From here on, on the coded, algorithmic information in D/RNA and its role in protein synthesis etc:
EXHB I: Wiki is forced to admit, reflecting the sheer weight of the evidence you [FH] wish to dismiss:
The genetic code is the set of rules used by living cells to translate information encoded within genetic material (DNA or RNA sequences of nucleotide triplets, or codons) into proteins. Translation is accomplished by the ribosome, which links proteinogenic amino acids in an order specified by messenger RNA (mRNA), using transfer RNA (tRNA) molecules to carry amino acids and to read the mRNA three nucleotides at a time. The genetic code is highly similar among all organisms and can be expressed in a simple table with 64 entries. The codons specify which amino acid will be added next during protein synthesis. With some exceptions,[1] a three-nucleotide codon in a nucleic acid sequence specifies a single amino acid. The vast majority of genes are encoded with a single scheme (see the RNA codon table). That scheme is often referred to as the canonical or standard genetic code, or simply the genetic code, though variant codes (such as in mitochondria) exist. [--> about 2 dozen]
This includes:
[Caption for an illustration:] A series of codons in part of a messenger RNA (mRNA) molecule. Each codon consists of three nucleotides, usually corresponding to a single amino acid. The nucleotides are abbreviated with the letters A, U, G and C. This is mRNA, which uses U (uracil). DNA uses T (thymine) instead. This mRNA molecule will instruct a ribosome to synthesize a protein according to this code. [--> algorithm]
EXHB II: [T]o get even more explicit, here is the next confession wrung from the weight of facts:
In communications and information processing, code is a system of rules to convert information—such as a letter, word, sound, image, or gesture—into another form, sometimes shortened or secret, for communication through a communication channel or storage in a storage medium.
Cherry on top? The example of storage medium chosen, shown in a pop up illustration: “DNA and RNA can be considered as biological storage mediums.[1]” That article, opens:
Data storage is the recording (storing) of information (data) in a storage medium. Handwriting, phonographic recording, magnetic tape, and optical discs are all examples of storage media. Some authors even propose that DNA is a natural data storage mechanism. [--> forced concession]
Of course, Crick knew that by March 19, 1953, so we can here see Wiki’s notorious moderators dragged kicking and screaming into making a partial admission against ideological inclination. EXHB III: [T]o clench over the nails on the coffin for your argument, BBC: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-59489560
Scientists claim big advance in using DNA to store data By Paul Rincon Science editor, BBC News website Published 1 December 2021 Scientists say they have made a major step forward in efforts to store information as molecules of DNA, which are more compact and long-lasting than other options. The magnetic hard drives we currently use to store computer data can take up lots of space. And they have to be replaced over time. Using life’s preferred storage medium to back up our precious data would allow vast amounts of information to be archived in tiny molecules. The data would also last thousands of years, according to scientists. A team in Atlanta, US, has now developed a chip that they say could improve on existing forms of DNA storage by a factor of 100. “The density of features on our new chip is [approximately] 100x higher than current commercial devices,” Nicholas Guise, senior research scientist at Georgia Tech Research Institute (GTRI), told BBC News. “So once we add all the control electronics – which is what we’re doing over the next year of the program – we expect something like a 100x improvement over existing technology for DNA data storage.” The technology works by growing unique strands of DNA one building block at a time. These building blocks are known as bases – four distinct chemical units that make up the DNA molecule. They are: adenine, cytosine, guanine and thymine. Scientists write film into bacterial DNA DNA chipImage source, Sean McNeil Image caption, The microchip will be used for growing multiple strands of DNA in parallel The bases can then be used to encode information, in a way that’s analogous to the strings of ones and zeroes (binary code) that carry data in traditional computing. There are different potential ways to store this information in DNA – for example, a zero in binary code could be represented by the bases adenine or cytosine and a one might be represented by guanine or thymine. Alternatively, a one and zero could be mapped to just two of the four bases. Scientists have said that, if formatted in DNA, every movie ever made could fit inside a volume smaller than a sugar cube. Given how compact and reliable it is, it’s not surprising there is now broad interest in DNA as the next medium for archiving data that needs to be kept indefinitely. The structures on the chip used to grow the DNA are called microwells and are a few hundred nanometres deep – less than the thickness of a sheet of paper. The current prototype microchip is about 2.5cm (one-inch) square and includes multiple microwells, allowing several DNA strands to be synthesised in parallel. This will allow larger amounts of DNA to be grown in a shorter space of time.
In short, they used a different code, as they needed 2 rather than 4 states per element in the string, but the point is plain. D/RNA is a known storage medium. That you refuse to acknowledge it, trying to obfuscate by reference to biochemistry — hurling an elephant — speaks volumes on your desperation to avoid facing the coded information and algorithms in the heart of the cell.
Here, we see that not even Wikipedia thinks it can get away with hyperskeptical denial like this. BBC, simply reports a development for use of DNA in archiving technology by imposing a different coding scheme. Already, it was pointed out that whole movies were encoded in DNA using similar techniques. This technology shows beyond dispute that D/RNA is a storage medium, by using it for general data storage. All that is needed is to open one's eyes to the similar use in D/RNA, whereby protein codes are stored and used in the cell to synthesise proteins. This should not have had to be belaboured, but it is an indicator of how decisive the point is that we see such stout selective hyperskepticism and preening on oh Biochemistry. FYI, the biochemistry is here a means for information storage using polymerisation under information control to store information and to express it as AA strings that are informed by underlying deep understanding of polymers. We do not yet have that depth of polymer science, but what we do not know should not be allowed to make us deny what we do or can know. kairosfocus
Jblais at 779, thanks for your input:, worth a clipped repost
"As a medical biochemist (aka chemical pathologist) and a biologist with training in evolutionary biology, I can’t help but comment on Jack Szostak ideas regarding the issue of the origin of the genetic code. None of what he said about the issue in the context of the RNA world idea, and none of what is presented in one of the recent paper mentionned (Radakovic 2022 PNAS) has any chemical plausibility in my opinion.,,, As usual with RNA and ribozymes, catalytic activities are very weak and molecules are unstable. This has always plagued the RNA world hypothesis and no one has ever solved this inconvenient fact. And as usual with OoL research, the probability of any of these sorts of reactions occurring in natural prebiotic conditions is indistinguishable from zero. For example, the amino acid they used, Lysine, is, as they concede, not reasonably expected to be found in prebiotic environment:,,, That this sort of wild, totally implausible, speculation is allowed to appear in a respectable journal like PNAS is embarrassing.,,, Outside living cells, we know of no other chemical reaction governed by a code, not a single one, why ? The question is thus, how can chemistry become linguistic/informatics? So far, nobody has any clue." - Jblais - July 2022 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/at-evolution-news-gunter-bechly-repudiates-professor-daves-attacks-against-id/#comment-760263
Jblais, in my notes, I've tucked your informed critique right below this following one,,,
Dan S. Tawfik Group - The New View of Proteins - Tyler Hampton - 2016 Excerpt: (Tawfik soberly recognizes the problem. The appearance of early protein families, he has remarked, is “something like close to a miracle.”45,,,) NASA’s Andrew Pohorille and Michael New supply three reasons to doubt an RNA world:51 1. Protein building blocks are more easily formed than RNA building blocks, which are notoriously difficult to form. 2. RNA cannot easily achieve the crucial aspects of metabolism, such as energy capture and transport. This may have been necessary from the beginning.52 No ribozymes have ever been observed to do something as crucial as establishing a proton gradient to produce ATP energy or synthesizing nucleotides for new RNA strands.53 3. An RNA world would seem to offer a great deal of confusion to natural selection. “[S]ince there is no relationship,” Pohorille and New write, “between the function of a catalytic RNA and the function, if any, of the protein for which it can code, there is no clear path from the ‘RNA world’ to today’s world of protein catalysis and nucleic acid information storage.”54 Further serious problems remain. RNA enzymes emerge at about the frequency suggested by Szostak for proteins, so no relief of probabilities is offered. Additionally, RNA enzymes that break bonds or perform irrelevant tasks may more frequently emerge than the few that would do a cell much good. Any good gained could be lost in this mix. Finally, the backbone structure of RNA suggests that it was impossibly fragile in early watery conditions.55,, (“In fact, to our knowledge,” Tawfik and Tóth-Petróczy write, “no macromutations ... that gave birth to novel proteins have yet been identified.”69) http://inference-review.com/article/the-new-view-of-proteins
Also of related note, here is a very interesting, and honest, confession that Jack Szostak himself made right before he appealed to his unrealistic RNA-world model, ""Every living cell, even the simplest bacterium, teems with molecular contraptions that would be the envy of any nanotechnologist.,,, It is virtually impossible to imagine how a cell’s machines, which are mostly protein-based catalysts called enzymes, could have formed spontaneously as life first arose from nonliving matter around 3.7 billion years ago."
The Origin of Life on Earth By Alonso Ricardo, Jack W. Szostak on September 1, 2009 Excerpt: "Every living cell, even the simplest bacterium, teems with molecular contraptions that would be the envy of any nanotechnologist. As they incessantly shake or spin or crawl around the cell, these machines cut, paste and copy genetic molecules, shuttle nutrients around or turn them into energy, build and repair cellular membranes, relay mechanical, chemical or electrical messages—the list goes on and on, and new discoveries add to it all the time. It is virtually impossible to imagine how a cell’s machines, which are mostly protein-based catalysts called enzymes, could have formed spontaneously as life first arose from nonliving matter around 3.7 billion years ago." Dr. Jack Szostak - http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=origin-of-life-on-earth
Perhaps Szostak should be given another Nobel for imagining what he himself conceded was 'virtually impossible' to imagine? :) bornagain77
FH, you have established that your credibility is forfeit, indeed, it is negative. Reliably, you are in error so your comments tell us what is wrong. That is a service, albeit an inadvertent one. FYI, Chemistry and physics do not explain, causal sense, source of functionally specific complex organisation and/or its associated information. That is gross error. Information, whether explicit or implicit, and particularly what we are manifestly dealing with, language formed as digital codes expressing algorithms -- the facts on this won several Nobel prizes decades ago -- comes from intelligently directed configuration, aka design. Which you cannot yield as you are locked into a crooked yardstick frame of thought. KF PS, for record, I will document here what you ducked in the already linked discussion, so that we can all see what you have refused to acknowledge and how this is something you must know at some level. kairosfocus
You would be well advised to apologise for your sorry track record and amend your thinking and ways, of course that is most unlikely.
Good grief. Does this line of talking work with anyone else you have encountered, online or in real life? As I said, big frog, small pond. Fred Hickson
KF
D/RNA is used to hold coded algorithms is well established fact, and that this is at the heart of protein synthesis is beyond responsible doubt. Perhaps you do not recognise that digital means, discrete state, four state is just as digital as two state. If you want an analogy, D/RNA is comparable to punched paper tape. It is also comparable to a Yale type lock, exhibiting a prong height code. And BTW as you were already advised but of course willfully ignored, a template is an information rich framework used to guide a manufacturing process, it is an analogue memory device, comparable to a stack of cams on a shaft such as was used to make automata in C18 and as Paley alluded to in Ch 2 of his work, in suggesting the thought exercise of a self replicating, time keeping watch.
Your attempts to double-down on your poor analogies merely show your ignorance of the biochemical processes and the emergent properties of the molecules involved. The double helix configuration that is ideal for storing genetic information, replicating it during reproduction and supplying RNA copies to act as ribozymes and as templates for proteins is just amazing, truly fascinating and impossible but for the properties of the hydrogen bond. But it would be fun to get back to the issue of UB's assertion that such a system (the DNA code and aaRSs) could not evolve. This is not a binary question. There is the scientific position that proposes plausible pathways and tests their viability. It is acceptable to say "I don't know" but look for ways to improve our knowledge. Fred Hickson
PS, as further documentation of your deserved negative credibility, FH, here is Q yet again: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/at-mind-matters-news-why-free-will-is-philosophically-and-scientifically-sound/#comment-760286
47 Querius July 7, 2022 at 1:38 pm All, Even after providing Fred Hickson with a link to the web page of a research biologist supporting my observations in high school regarding the maximum length of hydra under ideal conditions, he proclaims that he “remains skeptical.” This demonstrates that he considers his chosen skepticism to be irrefutable, contrary to any evidence presented to him regardless of the source. Please bear that in mind. -Q
You would be well advised to apologise for your sorry track record and amend your thinking and ways, of course that is most unlikely. kairosfocus
The OOL team will claim “it is getting closer” And cows are getting closer to jumping over the moon. ;) Paxx
FH, you can say what you want, having long since shown your want of recognition of duty to truth, right reason and warrant. Yesterday, I already addressed the point here on: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/at-mind-matters-news-why-free-will-is-philosophically-and-scientifically-sound/#comment-760214 That D/RNA is used to hold coded algorithms is well established fact, and that this is at the heart of protein synthesis is beyond responsible doubt. Perhaps you do not recognise that digital means, discrete state, four state is just as digital as two state. If you want an analogy, D/RNA is comparable to punched paper tape. It is also comparable to a Yale type lock, exhibiting a prong height code. And BTW as you were already advised but of course willfully ignored, a template is an information rich framework used to guide a manufacturing process, it is an analogue memory device, comparable to a stack of cams on a shaft such as was used to make automata in C18 and as Paley alluded to in Ch 2 of his work, in suggesting the thought exercise of a self replicating, time keeping watch. All of this has been noted, just you have not responded cogently, electing instead to repeat failed rhetorical talk points intended to distract from the merits, over and over again. Your credibility has long since become negative, for cause. KF kairosfocus
There is no reasonable doubt that the genetic code is precisely that, a code, specifically, machine language for the protein synthesis machinery of the cell; apparently, you are unfamiliar with machine code.
I said there is no analogical connection between the genetic code and linguistics. DNA sequences store information that can be read as RNA sequences and protein sequences. If it helps you to understand how DNA templating works, by all means use the analogy of digital storage in memory chips. It's a pretty poor one but carry on. I suspect my knowledge of machine code matches yours of biochemistry. ;) Fred Hickson
JB, thanks for some thoughtful inputs. Of course, these will be predictably ignored or twisted into strawman pretzels, but that is a sign of their significance. KF kairosfocus
Q, the just above shows one of the problems with the ignore the trolls model, giving them free rhetorical kicks at goal and undermining the force of the points we have to make. Instead, I think we can first treat objectors as reasonable people. Those who resort to rhetorical stunts, misrepresentations and fallacies can be exposed. Those who become snide, we can further expose for their evasions, distractions and toxic tone. Beyond a certain point, we can point out that they have been definitively answered, with links; the repeating the failed arguments game is thus exposed. Those who cross the line into abuse, get banned. In the case of FH, by his own words, he has been banned several times, of course he wants to suggest that we are censoring what we cannot cogently answer [hence the reply just above, demonstrating the contrary for record], but there is reason to believe that overwhelmingly banning from UD has been for cause. KF kairosfocus
FH, you are playing the flawed analogy strawman rhetorical stunt again. There is no reasonable doubt that the genetic code is precisely that, a code, specifically, machine language for the protein synthesis machinery of the cell; apparently, you are unfamiliar with machine code. Your own expert, Szostak, acknowledges it. Wikipedia, that bastion of secularist ideology cannot dare to deny it. That you cannot acknowledge, is inadvertent testimony as to the powerful implication of that point, that such use of language to effect algorithms is strong reason to infer design of the living cell. KF kairosfocus
Jblais
The question is thus, how can chemistry become linguistic/informatics?
Hi Jblais, There's an assumption in your question that the genetic code has some analogical connection with linguistics. That is not the case. Fred Hickson
Jerry @793,
There is only one effective way to deal with trolls. Ignore them.
Exactly! I really don't mind someone disagreeing with me on some point, even vehemently. I do mind when a few people use deception, obfuscation, ad hominem attacks, and other rhetorical devices just to make a mess here. -Q Querius
Fred Hickson:
And to return to the subject of aaRSs, the fact that the Szostak lab made an aaRS ribozyme seems to have zoomed over everyone’s heads.
Wrong again, as usual. I said the fat that they engineered it doesn't mean that nature can do it. What engineering it does is show what is required to get it done.
Also RNA amino-acid chimeras are candidates for involvement transition from RNA world to DNA/RNA/protein world. Why is no ID scientist doing this sort of stuff.
Because we think it's a fool's errand. First, there isn't any evidence for any RNA world. And we already know that DNA-based life requires specialized proteins just so it maintains its stability as an information carrier. The fact that DNA is NOT stable drives a horse and buggy right through any alleged transfer from the RNA world. One of the main reasons why they said RNA led to DNA was cuz DNA was stable. Yet, right from the start DNA has to code for those specialized proteins that are required just to counteract its collapse! ET
Fred Hickson:
Science is work in progress, as the Szostak lab demonstrates by its prolific publications.
None of which support the claim that blind and mindless processes produced life and its diversity.
Where are the ID papers?
Your confusion runs deeper than your blatant lie that UD is an anti-evolution site. The debate is about conducting or using scientific research and coming tom a design inference if warranted. And in the case of the genetic code and the OoL, the design inference is warranted. ET
Jblais Excellent analysis @795. Szostak and his followers strut around as if they've solved something. In reality, however, it is as you said - an embarrassment. Putting all one's hopes in an RNA world - weak, unstable molecules where, as you said:
the probability of any of any of these reactions occurring in natural prebiotic conditions is indistinguishable from zero
The OOL team will claim "it is getting closer" but if the RNA world is an impossibility and is not the foundation they're seeking, then they're not getting closer but actually moving farther away. Silver Asiatic
Upright Biped at 795 You're welcome sir. I see the problem of the origin of life as largely boiling down to the, I think unbridgeable in principle, qualitative divide between physico-chemical laws governing chemistry (in effect the force of electromagnetism and thermodynamics), and the intentionality inherent to the symbolism of any language like the genetic code. I think this is very similar to the issue raised by intentionality in the context of the philosophy of mind and the "hard problem" of consciousness. Unfortunately, many people seem to simply fail to grasp the nature of the problem, which is a philosophical one. Most scientists are of course largely ignorant and incompetent at philosophy, hence the kind of claims and fairytales such as those from Szostak and others that consistently miss the point entirely and moreover, as I said, lack any chemical plausibility, while of course being completely devoid of even a sketch of what a step by step chemically plausible model could possibly look like. James Tour is entirely right on the state of OoL research. It's been an embarrassment for science for decades. Jblais
Sev
Thus stated “naturalism” is not a controversial position.
Just from the segment you quoted, it seems like a controversial term to me:
The term “naturalism” has no very precise meaning in contemporary philosophy.
It can mean one thing or it can have a conflicting meaning.
So understood, “naturalism” is not a particularly informative term ...
It's not informative because nobody knows what it means.
The term “naturalism” has no very precise meaning in contemporary philosophy.
As above, these philosophers use a term that has no precise meaning.
Different contemporary philosophers interpret “naturalism” differently.
These same philosophers cannot agree among themselves on what the term means. However ...
For better or worse, “naturalism” is widely viewed as a positive term in philosophical circles—only a minority of philosophers nowadays are happy to announce themselves as “non-naturalists”.
For better or worse? I'd call it worse. A term that has no precise meaning, a term that is not informative, and a term that philosophers can't agree upon the meaning -- no matter, they all think it is a "positive term". They all agree on that, even though they don't agree on what the term means. That's atheistic philosophy. Don't bother figuring out what your philosophical terms actually mean, but proclaim them to be "positive" as long as they're anti-God. Silver Asiatic
. Jblaise at 779 Thank you for your comment. Upright BiPed
Sev, you will note that we here address specifically, a priori imposition of evolutionary materialistic scientism, which is manifestly self refuting. As for the suggestion that the highly controversial stance known as "naturalism" is a default, every significant worldview alternative is subject to comparative difficulties analysis and is a matter of controversies. KF kairosfocus
extensive troll library
There is only one effective way to deal with trolls. Ignore them. From someone constantly trolled.
I've been meaning to write this column for a while, and finally got around to it: complaining about trolling doesn't stop trolls, it rewards them. Do. Not. Feed. The. Trolls. Don't respond to people who troll you. If others are trolled, instead of leaping in to say how awful and outrageous it is, remind the target not to feed the trolls. Any crumb of attention merely encourages them.
https://twitter.com/asymmetricinfo/status/1545026242801537024 There is no better way to deal with trolls. But some believe they know better and try to reason with them. But is this really better? I’ve yet to see a troll respond to reason. The person using reasoning is getting played. Aside: it’s perfectly reasonable to use the troll comment to make a point but it should not be for the troll but for the general argument. jerry
From the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entry on Naturalism
The term “naturalism” has no very precise meaning in contemporary philosophy. Its current usage derives from debates in America in the first half of the last century. The self-proclaimed “naturalists” from that period included John Dewey, Ernest Nagel, Sidney Hook and Roy Wood Sellars. These philosophers aimed to ally philosophy more closely with science. They urged that reality is exhausted by nature, containing nothing “supernatural”, and that the scientific method should be used to investigate all areas of reality, including the “human spirit” (Krikorian 1944, Kim 2003). So understood, “naturalism” is not a particularly informative term as applied to contemporary philosophers. The great majority of contemporary philosophers would happily accept naturalism as just characterized—that is, they would both reject “supernatural” entities, and allow that science is a possible route (if not necessarily the only one) to important truths about the “human spirit”. Even so, this entry will not aim to pin down any more informative definition of “naturalism”. It would be fruitless to try to adjudicate some official way of understanding the term. Different contemporary philosophers interpret “naturalism” differently. This disagreement about usage is no accident. For better or worse, “naturalism” is widely viewed as a positive term in philosophical circles—only a minority of philosophers nowadays are happy to announce themselves as “non-naturalists”.[1] This inevitably leads to a divergence in understanding the requirements of “naturalism”. Those philosophers with relatively weak naturalist commitments are inclined to understand “naturalism” in a unrestrictive way, in order not to disqualify themselves as “naturalists”, while those who uphold stronger naturalist doctrines are happy to set the bar for “naturalism” higher.[2]
Thus stated "naturalism" is not a controversial position. The challenge for those who argue for the existence of a supernatural domain is to provide compelling observational evidence to support their claim. Otherwise, we have no reason to allow a divine foot in the door. Seversky
KF
At this point we can conclude that you are resisting what is massively evident, as the substance is fatal to your intent.
Agreed. Personal attack and ridicule is evidence that the poster has run out of things to say. FH usually presents a single point. Then several rebuttals are raised against it. Then, what he almost always does is just repeat the initial point, verbatim and act as if there has been no argument. As mentioned, he's been banned from UD "several times" under other aliases. No owning up to it, no mention of who he was here in the past, has there been a change of heart or attitude? Nothing on that either. So it can make us wonder if participation here is offered in good faith or not. Silver Asiatic
FH, nope, and you are now indulging in personal attack rather than addressing substance, a further sign that you do not have anything substantial on the merits. Szostak makes a remark in passing but that remark is itself noteworthy and not in favour of the hyperskepticism you have put up. At this point we can conclude that you are resisting what is massively evident, as the substance is fatal to your intent. KF kairosfocus
*chuckles* KF, quotemining ? Tut tut. ;) Fred Hickson
FH, the fact of relevance is your attempt to dismiss the code involved in D/RNA has failed, with Szostak himself saying in his reply to you as cited above, cf from here on https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/at-mind-matters-news-why-free-will-is-philosophically-and-scientifically-sound/#comment-760214 . I now clip from the letter to you, again for record from 777 above:
[T]he origin of the aaRS enzymes is an important issue, because obviously coded protein synthesis by the ribosome could not have evolved if the aminoacylated tRNAs did not already exist.
It's over, on substance. KF kairosfocus
PS: NSTA Board July 2000
All those involved with science teaching and learning should have a common, accurate view of the nature of science. [--> yes but a question-begging ideological imposition is not an accurate view] Science is characterized by the systematic gathering of information through various forms of direct and indirect observations and the testing of this information by methods including, but not limited to, experimentation [--> correct so far]. The principal product of science is knowledge in the form of naturalistic concepts [--> evolutionary materialistic scientism is imposed] and the laws and theories related to those [--> i.e. ideologically loaded, evolutionary materialistic] concepts . . . . science, along with its methods, explanations and generalizations, must be the sole focus of instruction in science classes to the exclusion of all non-scientific or pseudoscientific methods, explanations, generalizations and products [--> censorship of anything that challenges the imposition; fails to appreciate that scientific methods are studied through logic, epistemology and philosophy of science, which are philosophy not science] . . . . Although no single universal step-by-step scientific method captures the complexity of doing science [--> a good point, but fails to see that this brings to bear many philosophical issues], a number of shared values and perspectives characterize a scientific approach to understanding nature. Among these are a demand for naturalistic explanations [--> outright ideological imposition and censorship that fetters freedom of responsible thought] supported by empirical evidence [--> the imposition controls how evidence is interpreted and that's why blind watchmaker mechanisms never seen to actually cause FSCO/I have default claim to explain it in the world of life] that are, at least in principle, testable against the natural world. Other shared elements include observations, rational argument [--> ideological imposition may hide under a cloak of rationality but is in fact anti-rational], inference, skepticism [--> critical awareness is responsible, selective hyperskepticism backed by ideological censorship is not], peer review [--> a circle of ideologues in agreement has no probative value] and replicability of work . . . . Science, by definition, is limited to naturalistic [= evolutionary materialistic scientism is imposed by definition, locking out an unfettered search for the credibly warranted truth about our world i/l/o observational evidence and linked inductive reasoning] methods and explanations and, as such [--> notice, ideological imposition by question-begging definition], is precluded from using supernatural elements [--> sets up a supernatural vs natural strawman alternative when the proper contrast since Plato in The Laws, Bk X, is natural vs artificial] in the production of scientific knowledge. [US NSTA Board, July 2000, definition of the nature of science for education purposes]
Similarly, Martin Mahner is a fairly active German author on materialism in science, ontological and methodological, so called. Here is a key remark he made on the matter: http://www.springerlink.com/content/b04008g7w0781308/fulltext.html#CR31
. . . metaphysical naturalism is a constitutive ontological principle of science in that the general empirical methods of science, such as observation, measurement and experiment, and thus the very production of empirical evidence, presuppose a no-supernature principle [--> recall, we are dealing with what is institutionally dominant, it matters not that some would disagree, this is a statement of where the Overton Window lies and what the power brokers think they have power to lock out, regardless of actual merits] . . . . Metaphysical or ontological naturalism (henceforth: ON) ["roughly" and "simply"] is the view that all that exists is our lawful spatiotemporal world. Its negation is of course supernaturalism: the view that our lawful spatiotemporal world is not all that exists because there is another non-spatiotemporal world transcending the natural one, whose inhabitants—usually considered to be intentional beings—are not subject to natural laws . . . . Both scientists and science educators keep being challenged by creationists of all shades, who try hard to reintroduce supernaturalist explanations into biology and into all the areas of science that concern the origin of the world in general and of human beings in particular. [--> Confession by projection? No merely human power class has a permanent empire. This too will fall.]
[--> of course he here glides by the point Plato highlighted in The Laws Bk X, natural vs supernatural, and the linked point that it is empirically well founded that there are signs of intelligently directed configuration as cause, where a major goal and condition of credibility of science is that it seeks empirically supported truth about our world. Ideological capture of science and science education potentially has a ruinous cost.]
A major aspect of this debate is the role of ON in science . . . . ON is not part of a deductive argument in the sense that if we collected all the statements or theories of science and used them as premises, then ON would logically follow. After all, scientific theories do not explicitly talk about anything metaphysical such as the presence or absence of supernatural entities: they simply refer to natural entities and processes only. Therefore, ON rather is a tacit metaphysical supposition of science, an ontological postulate. It is part of a metascientific framework or, if preferred, of the metaparadigm of science that guides the construction and evaluation of theories, and that helps to explain why science works and succeeds in studying and explaining the world. [--> cat out of the bag.] ["The role of Metaphysical Naturalism in Science," Science and Education, 2011]
Case 3, Lewontin, speaking for the scientific elites and their attitude:
[Lewontin:] . . . to put a correct [--> Just who here presume to cornering the market on truth and so demand authority to impose?] view of the universe into people's heads
[==> as in, "we" the radically secularist elites have cornered the market on truth, warrant and knowledge, making "our" "consensus" the yardstick of truth . . . where of course "view" is patently short for WORLDVIEW . . . and linked cultural agenda . . . ]
we must first get an incorrect view out [--> as in, if you disagree with "us" of the secularist elite you are wrong, irrational and so dangerous you must be stopped, even at the price of manipulative indoctrination of hoi polloi] . . . the problem is to get them [= hoi polloi] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world [--> "explanations of the world" is yet another synonym for WORLDVIEWS; the despised "demon[ic]" "supernatural" being of course an index of animus towards ethical theism and particularly the Judaeo-Christian faith tradition], the demons that exist only in their imaginations,
[ --> as in, to think in terms of ethical theism is to be delusional, justifying "our" elitist and establishment-controlling interventions of power to "fix" the widespread mental disease]
and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth
[--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]
. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists [--> "we" are the dominant elites], it is self-evident
[--> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . . and in fact it is evolutionary materialism that is readily shown to be self-refuting]
that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality [--> = all of reality to the evolutionary materialist], and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [--> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us [= the evo-mat establishment] to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door . . . [--> irreconcilable hostility to ethical theism, already caricatured as believing delusionally in imaginary demons]. [Lewontin, Billions and billions of Demons, NYRB Jan 1997,cf. here. And, if you imagine this is "quote-mined" I invite you to read the fuller annotated citation here.]
The matter is clear and any prudent educator or thinker on related subjects would avoid terminology that invites the Lewontin imposition. kairosfocus
And to return to the subject of aaRSs, the fact that the Szostak lab made an aaRS ribozyme seems to have zoomed over everyone's heads. Also RNA amino-acid chimeras are candidates for involvement transition from RNA world to DNA/RNA/protein world. Why is no ID scientist doing this sort of stuff. You need to find your John Frum. I don't think Upright Biped fits the bill. Fred Hickson
FH, a pointless quip, an empty rhetorical stunt. I will document my point about evolutionary materialistic scientism momentarily for record; just as I showed from Szostak's reply that he acknowledges the D/RNA coded system as does any informed and straightforward person. KF kairosfocus
Tilting at windmills, KF. Fred Hickson
ET
You and yours have quite a bit of work to do.
Indeed. Science is work in progress, as the Szostak lab demonstrates by its prolific publications. Where are the ID papers? Fred Hickson
ET, I think one issue is, they conceive of evolution as evolutionary materialistic scientism, so any challenge to that reigning ideology is seen as anti science. They do not realise that this position, this ideology is self referentially incoherent in many ways and thus necessarily false. Self refuting. KF kairosfocus
Querius @771 - thank you for posting that. It was such an absurd statement that I was rendered speechless. But as such - as you've said - we can add it to the tool kit.
(name), your comment at (comment_number), as I am reading it, is somewhat incoherent and bears little relation to events. If you want, I can reply in more detail when I have time, though the sentiments won’t change.
Yes. "Your comment was incoherent. I couldn't understand it - it did not make sense. But instead of asking for a clarification, I'll explain why I reject it. First, it doesn't relate to events. Again, I could request an explanation, but I fully understand what you were trying to do. It was perfectly clear. You simply didn't align it. So, while the comment was incoherent and I didn't understand it, I can assure you - no matter what you have to say, the sentiments I have will not change. That's why I have no need to ask for a clarification. Even though I didn't understand you, it's impossible that what you have to say could change my sentiments. Plus, I already know that you're wrong since it's perfectly clear what you were saying." Silver Asiatic
UB @769 Excellent overview - thanks. That is the kind of detail that FH has avoided all along. I believe his entire argument is as you said: the self-replicating RNA itself would keep things going, while promiscuous molecules could build up all the other hardware until the grand transition to symbolic descriptions took place So there's a molecule that could survive and replicate without the need for DNA - and that means, it could therefore use the evolutionary mechanisms and DNA would emerge. But as you pointed out, the story is filled with The unexplained self-replicating RNA molecule appears. Then a discrete tRNA-like molecule appears. Then, a discrete aaRS-like molecule also appears. And these things somehow improve the purely dynamic self-replicating RNA. Then other essential elements appear. And this happens 20 times. FH then wonders "what now?" as if something has been solved or as if the ID position has been nullified. Silver Asiatic
As a medical biochemist (aka chemical pathologist) and a biologist with training in evolutionary biology, I can't help but comment on Jack Szostak ideas regarding the issue of the origin of the genetic code. None of what he said about the issue in the context of the RNA world idea, and none of what is presented in one of the recent paper mentionned (Radakovic 2022 PNAS) has any chemical plausibility in my opinion. First of all, if we look at the 2022 Radakovic paper, what they show after very hard work, is that some rare RNA oligonucleotides with some (weak) ligase or amino-acyl transerase activity can bind to amino acids and in some cases retain some of these weak catalytic properties, albeit with reduced activity. As they say: "The greater lability of amino acid ester–phosphoramidate linkages to hydrolysis (5, 30) is likely to be responsible for the observed decrease in chimeric ribozyme activity with time. The chimeric ligase ribozyme has a half-life of 22 h in the presence of 10 mM Mg2+, which erodes its ligation activity over the course of the multihour reaction (Fig. 3C and SI Appendix, Fig. S7C). For faster transformations, such as the hammerhead cleavage, which uses 3 mM Mg2+, or reactions that occur at low tempera tures, such as the flexizyme aminoacylation, aminoacyl ester hydrolysis is negligible on the reaction timescale but imposes a limit on the overall lifetime of the chimeric ribozyme (SI Appendix, Figs. S4C and S11B)." As usual with RNA and ribozymes, catalytic activities are very weak and molecules are unstable. This has always plagued the RNA world hypothesis and no one has ever solved this inconvenient fact. And as usual with OoL research, the probability of any of these sorts of reactions occurring in natural prebiotic conditions is indistinguishable from zero. For example, the amio acid they used, Lysine, is, as they concede, not reasonably expected to be found in prebiotic environment: “Although high-yielding prebiotic syntheses of Lys are lacking, we reasoned that chime ric ribozymes bridged with Lys would present opportunities for future evolution of new functions that involve amino acid side chain groups not found in RNA. Our choice of L-Lys was also informed by the observation that L-Lys amino acid bridges were the most well tolerated within the hammerhead ribozyme…” How convenient ! But more importantly, even disregarding the complete chemical implausibility of this sort of scenario occurring on a prebiotic earth, none of that has anything to do with the issue raised by Upright Biped, namely, how can chemical bonds lead to symbolic bonds as in the genetic code. The issue has never been whether oligonucleotides can form chemical bonds with amino acids or peptides ! However, like this paper demonstrates eloquently, even getting RNA molecules to simply covalently bind to amino-acids or peptides is very hard and unstable ! Just to get an idea, they needed to let the reaction go for 16-18 hours at 0° C just for the flexizyme ribozyme to amino-acylate the oligonucleotides that would then be used as building blocks to be ligated to form the hammerhead ! But anyhow, nothing in this kind of paper has any relevance to the question. That this sort of wild, totally implausible, speculation is allowed to appear in a respectable journal like PNAS is embarrassing. The only reason for that I can think of is an a priori commitment by most of the scientific establishment to a naturalistic and atheistic metaphysics that requires abiogenesis to be true. Life is governed by a system of symbolic representation, aka a code or language. A code or language implies the notion of intentionality. Chemistry does not include such principle. Outside living cells, we know of no other chemical reaction governed by a code, not a single one, why ? The question is thus, how can chemistry become linguistic/informatics? So far, nobody has any clue. Jblais
Fred Hickson:
So what now, ET, Querius?
You and yours have quite a bit of work to do. You need to find evidence for your fantasy RNA world, just for starters. But first, you need an education. Start with this- Intelligent Design is NOT anti-evolution. And if you cannot understand it then you do not belong here. ET
UB:
of course, what Fred actually demonstrates (and Szostak confirms) is that there is no demonstration anywhere in science of the rise of encoded symbolic descriptions from dynamics. And thus, the first question I asked comes back to the front. The universal evidence that encoded symbol systems only come from intelligence remains universal, and the design inference remains empirically valid.
Yup, and in another thread, he is trying to pretend -- we can safely say, lie brazenly -- that D/RNA is not an information storage medium. See here on i/l/o what happens just above: follows https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/at-mind-matters-news-why-free-will-is-philosophically-and-scientifically-sound/#comment-760214 FH duly stands exposed and corrected. KF PS, Szostak:
he origin of the aaRS enzymes is an important issue, because obviously coded protein synthesis by the ribosome could not have evolved if the aminoacylated tRNAs did not already exist.
FH has been told by the expert he consulted to attack UD, that D/RNA is a coded, information bearing system, and that this is OBVIOUS. Yet, he continued his rhetorical stunts. That tells us all we need to know about utter irresponsibility. kairosfocus
F/N: FH confesses to being a long time objector banned several times. Thus, we can safely conclude, his behaviour has been repeatedly marginal to unacceptable and/or abusive. That goes a long way to explaining what we now see. Expose and correct for record the trolls and their fallacies but don't entertain them. KF kairosfocus
So what now, ET, Querius? Fred Hickson
ET @773, Exactly. Horse and buggy--haha! Did you just hear a bu-bump sound? -Q Querius
Fred Hickson:
So what now, Upright Biped?
You need to find evidentiary support for your ideas. Without that, the horse and buggy runs you over. ET
Did Fred really say that UD is an anti-evolution site? Why are you so openly dishonest, Fred? ET
For one thing, I'm adding 739 into my growing troll response collection:
(name), your comment at (comment_number), as I am reading it, is somewhat incoherent and bears little relation to events. If you want, I can reply in more detail when I have time, though the sentiments won’t change.
Once again, we can see the raw power of vacuous assertions and denials as irrefutable arguments. After a clueless ideologue's arguments are destroyed, they simply - Deny that the argument was coherent - Pretend that they don't understand - Respond with an ad hominem attack - Demand references requiring research time, only to blow them off when they're posted - Brag that no one has ever been able to refute their supposedly ironclad position - Announce that they've actually won! - etc. Once available from an extensive troll library, they can be pelted into the comments, requiring no actual thought or effort. As one can see from the one quoted above, such responses can be reused in almost any discussion, often with no changes needed. -Q Querius
So what now, Upright Biped? Fred Hickson
. The long and the short of it is that Szostak doesn’t provide a direct answer to the question, but he does provide the clues necessary to understand what his answer would be, must be. As I eluded to in comment #761 to Fred… A purely dynamic self-replicating RNA appears. Then a discrete tRNA-like molecule appears from this purely dynamic self-replicating RNA, carrying with it a future anti-codon corresponding to one of the many amino acids (pick one, valine) to be specified by a future protein synthesis. Then, a discrete aaRS-like molecule also appears from this purely dynamic self-replicating RNA. This aaRS-like molecule then binds the tRNA-like molecule to a valine amino acid, and this binding somehow improves the purely dynamic self-replicating RNA, and they become a fixed part that purely dynamic self-replicating RNA. Then, yet another discrete tRNA-like molecule appears from this purely dynamic self-replicating RNA, carrying with it the future anticodon of another of the many amino acids (pick one, glutamine) to be specified by a future protein synthesis. Then, yet another discrete aaRS-like molecule appears from this purely dynamic self-replicating RNA. This aaRS-like molecule then binds the new tRNA-like molecule to a glutamine amino acid, and this binding somehow improves the purely dynamic self-replicating RNA, and they become a fixed part of that purely dynamic self-replicating RNA. Then, just as before, yet another discrete tRNA-like molecule appears from this purely dynamic self-replicating RNA, carrying with it the future anticodon of yet another of the many amino acids (pick one, leucine) to be specified by a future protein synthesis. Then, as before, yet another discrete aaRS-like molecule appears from this purely dynamic self-replicating RNA. This aaRS-like molecule then binds the new tRNA-like molecule to a leucine amino acid, and this binding somehow improves the purely dynamic self-replicating RNA, and they become a fixed part of that purely dynamic self-replicating RNA. Over and over, again and again, this process of spitting out discrete objects from this purely dynamic self-replicating RNA continues. It continues until all the amino acids that have to be specified in the future protein synthesis have become physically associated to their future anticodons — thereby establishing the future codons as tokens of memory. And then something truly usual happens; an mRNA-like molecule appears that just happens to have a sequence (hundreds of bases in length) that is entirely coherent with all of those associations previously set by the purely dynamic RNA — such that, if this mRNA-like molecule was to come into proximity of all those discrete tRNA-like molecules (each dutifully charged by its own aaRS-like molecule) it would result in the specification and construction of a genuine protein aaRS, which would then replace its aaRS-like RNA precursor from that point forward. This is the scenario that makes Fred’s answer “None” a possible candidate answer to the actual question asked. And this appearance of a long fully-coherent mRNA-like molecule, would then happen over and over and over again, establishing the genetic code as we find it today. As Fred happily points out, the self-replicating RNA itself would keep things going, while promiscuous molecules could build up all the other hardware until the grand transition to symbolic descriptions took place. It’s simple. The whole complicated translation machinery of the DNA/Protein World doesn’t need to rise all at once — with the RNA World it can arise twice instead. - - - - - - - - - - … of course, what Fred actually demonstrates (and Szostak confirms) is that there is no demonstration anywhere in science of the rise of encoded symbolic descriptions from dynamics. And thus, the first question I asked comes back to the front. The universal evidence that encoded symbol systems only come from intelligence remains universal, and the design inference remains empirically valid. The last I heard, that is the way science works. Upright BiPed
. Fred posted a copy of his correspondence with Jack Szostak on a different thread. I waited a full day to see if he was going to post it here where the idea originated. I’ll do it for him.
Hi Professor Szostak Please excuse my presumption in contacting you personally. I’m a retired layman who spent three years studying biochemistry (1968 -1971, [redacted] University) but was not good enough to follow a career in academia. I do try to maintain a current interest in the field and became very involved in internet discussions beginning 2005, with the events around the Kitzmiller v. Dover School Board. Your iconic paper, Functional proteins from a random-sequence library, often featured in those and later discussions. I write to you now because of an interview you gave recently published in Quanta Magazine (How Could Life Evolve From Cyanide?) which was picked up by an anti-evolution site, Uncommon Descent, where I am active (under a pseudonym, Fred Hickson, as I’ve previously been banned there several times) and another commenter made this point:
He goes on the mention the roles mRNA, and rRNA, and tRNA … and never mentions the appearance of aaRS or the critical role it plays in the living cell. I wonder why.
This commenter (pseudonym Upright Biped) maintains that aaRSs raise the chicken-and-egg problem of how the genetic code could evolve prior to proteins adopting the role of catalysis from ribozymes or conversely how could proteins have adopted the role prior to the genetic code evolving due to the arbitrary connection between the charged amino acid and the tRNA codon. I suggested we could simply ask you. A friend, a professional biochemist, thought this paper of yours (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10625423/) is probably enough of an answer, although I can only access the abstract.[ed – free access PDF found since and mentioned upthread] I agreed to include the specific question Upright Biped wanted to ask you:
Aminoacyl tRNA synthetase (aaRS) play a fundamental role in establishing the genetic code. They are sizable proteins that are specified from genetic memory via mRNA. It stands to reason that they did not always exist on earth, which implies that there was once (at some point in the distant past) the very first time that an aaRS was successfully synthesized from that genetic memory and then went on to serve its role in establishing the genetic code. Regardless of what any person might propose to have occurred prior to that event, at that particular point in time, how many of the other aaRS would need to be in place?
Anyway, if you got this far reading, I much appreciate that you did and would be most grateful for any comment you may offer. It feels surreal to be sending an email to a real-life Nobel laureate! My best wishes [redacted]
Prof Szostak responded thus:
Dear [redacted], The origin of the aaRS enzymes is an important issue, because obviously coded protein synthesis by the ribosome could not have evolved if the aminoacylated tRNAs did not already exist. The paper you noted shows that RNA enzymes (ribozymes) could act as aaRSs, so that helps to some extent, in the sense that the evolution of a set of aaRS ribozymes could have evolved in the RNA World, that early phase of life prior to the evolution of coded protein synthesis. But why would aaRS ribozymes have evolved if there was no ribosomal machinery to use their products (aminoacylated RNAs) to make proteins? One possible answer, which my lab is exploring, is that aminoacylated RNAs had some early function, prior to their use as substrates for the ribosome. For example, aminoacylation may have facilitated the assembly of early ribozymes. If aminoacylated RNAs had some such early function, there would have been a selective pressure for the evolution of aaRS ribozymes. I have attached pdf’s of two of our papers on this subject. We’re still working on this, and exploring related questions, such as the function of the first peptides. As with all of the so-called chicken-and-egg paradoxes in the origin and evolution of life, the answer comes from breaking down the evolutionary process into a series of smaller steps, all of which can happen sequentially. Best wishes, Jack
Upright BiPed
Maybe continue on the thread on Jack Szostaks recent interview for Quanta Magazine: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/how-could-life-evolve-from-cyanide/ Fred Hickson
I invite folks to check out the phenomenon of wobble pairing. And maybe promiscuity versus specificity as regards to biochemical catalysis. Fred Hickson
Upright Biped's question to Fred Hickson:
Regardless of what you believe may have come before that event occurred, at that point in time, how many of the other aaRS constraints has to be in place?
Upright Biped,s question for me to pass on to Jack Szostak:
Regardless of what any person might propose to have occurred prior to that event, at that particular point in time, how many of the other aaRS would need to be in place?
There's a clear difference between "constraint" and "aaRS". My answer to the modified question (and also Professor Szostak's answer, if my understanding is correct) is none (one to start with). Additionally, it seems aaRSs had a precursor role, aaRSs can be ribozymes, aaRSs can be chimeras consisting of ribonucleotides covalently linked to amino-acids. Much food for thought. Fred Hickson
. Fred, In case you are wondering why we must to be clear about the details, I point you back to the top of this conversation:
RNA World proponents invariably start their proposals with a presumed abiotic environment and then … move from an unknown condition to another unknown condition, then to another unknown condition after that (…) this type of question takes us from a known condition and asks how we might get there from the proposed explanation.
We already know the physical requirements of the system. The actual transition from dynamics to descriptions is the critical issue to address. Upright BiPed
JVL @ 227:
Really? So . . . counting the lengths of the gaps between the pulses of quasars is not nature producing a sequence? The rings of Saturn is not a pattern that can be represented numerically?
You conflate the map with the territory, a very widespread misinterpretation. The territory exists objectively regardless of a mind, a mind creates a representation of it and commits it to matter in the form of a meaningful pattern of pixels on the screen. Meaningful is local, defined by local constraints, to achieve a pragmatic result. It is you who does the counting. Counting assumes some already established information processing context. You conveniently leave the mind out of the equation, and here goes your 'nature did it'. Nature does not care. All nature creates is regularity or chaos. Both have very low information carrying capacity. EugeneS
Is Farina the same chap who argued with Tour? Interesting... In which case, I am grateful to Farina because his critique has caused Tour's videos on abiogenesis to appear ;) EugeneS
. #757
you have changed the phrasing to “how many of the other aaRSs have to be in place”.
I think I see your point. I changed the phrasing from “need to be in place” to ”have to be in place”. Nope, I don’t see your point.
My answer is none, of course, in line with my previous answer of “one”.
Okay. A codon in mRNA is a token in genetic memory (i.e. a rate-independent token, not a dynamic template). They are established by individual physical constraints, one for each amino acid to be specified by the system. How was the first-ever functioning aaRS (meaning it was constructed and served its function, typically requiring hundreds of amino acids in length) specified by tokens in genetic memory, if there are no constraints in the system to establish those tokens? When you say “none”, are you suggesting that just prior to the synthesis of the first functioning aaRS, there was 1) a coordinated suite of RNA precursors to aaRS that themselves did the work of aaRS in establishing the codons as tokens of memory, and 2) there was also a sequence mRNA that was coherent with that suite of aaRS precursors —such that when the sequence of codons was read, it would cause the assembly of a protein aaRS that would then replace one of those RNA precursors in the system? Is that the context that makes “none” a coherent answer to the question? Or, is the answer “none” referring to some prior state of the system, before the first aaRS was synthesized from genetic memory via mRNA and went on to serve its function? Which is it? Upright BiPed
Fred Hickson You haven’t been following closely. Upright Biped raised amino-acyl tRNA synthetases as an issue for evolutionary explanations.
:lol: Well for UB to mention aaRS (or any other element) in the actual functional symbolic system (DNA, RNA, ribosomes,etc) it's logic but for you to mention aaRS as part of an imaginary RNA system doesn't make sense. You come with this imaginary system on which you ground your imaginary conclusions. Imagination is not science even if you call it science . Lieutenant Commander Data
LCD
I have no idea why he [Fred Hickson] has chosen aaRS and not any other component involved in translation.
You haven't been following closely. Upright Biped raised amino-acyl tRNA synthetases as an issue for evolutionary explanations. Fred Hickson
Have emailed Professor Szostak including UB's question verbatim. I'll post his reply if I get one (assuming he agrees to publication) together with my email to him. Fred Hickson
Upright Biped (comment 751)
I think that’s a good idea. Allow me to suggest a question...
Great stuff and thanks for restating your question which I will pass on verbatim. Incidentally, it clarifies the point about the question I asked earlier in the thread as you have changed the phrasing to "how many of the other aaRSs have to be in place". (My answer is none, of course, in line with my previous answer of "one".) I'll get to it tomorrow (later today. ;) ). Fred Hickson
Upright BiPed how many of the other aaRS would need to be in place?
It's so funny to see how people try to explain to Fred about 21st century biology. He said that there is no genetic language but in the same time he brings as evidence exactly the components used for decoding the genetic language. (aaRS are just few subcomponents among many others of translation process). I have no idea why he has chosen aaRS and not any other component involved in translation. Maybe he wants to sound more intelligent than he is because the ability of the aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases to recognize tRNAs is called ,guess what :the “second genetic code.”:lol: This recognition process is necessary to maintain the fidelity of genetic information. The frequency of error for aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases is less than 10^-5.Mutations of aaRS are very dangerous that's why mechanisms reduce errors to less than one wrong amino acid in 100,000. As Fred very corectly said it's a piece of cake , you don't need coded language or multiple mechanisms to mantain fidelity of information you just need a big chunk of ignorance and a "hydrogen bond" and miracles just happen. Of course the genetic code /ribosomal subunits/mechanisms of error correcting/all 20 specific aaRS for every aminoacid/ are in place from the beginning or life can't exist. Not to mention complete mechanism for cell division/energy /cellular signalling/ etc. Lieutenant Commander Data
FH With your clarifications I'll add these to the ideas you presented: -- The environment is non-random -- DNA is not in any sense analogous to human language. -- DNA can be called a symbol system Silver Asiatic
Fred Hickson: '
Yes, in essence, earlier than ten years ago, I was skeptical of the RNA world idea and now I am not.
There isn't any evidence for it so your change must be due to desperation. ET
Fred Hickson:
Yes, it is an essential non-random element that drives cumulative adaptive change.
Clueless. The non-random part of natural selection is that not all variations have the same chance of being eliminated- Mayr. And the paper "Waiting for TWO Mutations" proves that cumulative selection is total fantasy.
DNA is not in any sense analogous to human language.
That is what SA said, Fred.
Evolution happens now and has happened in the past.
The debate is whether evolution proceeds via blind and mindless or telic processes.
How first life got from that start to the last universal common ancestor is what is in question.
How life originated dictates how it subsequently evolved. That you are too stupid to grasp that fact says it all, really. There isn't any naturalistic mechanism capable of producing the diversity of life starting with populations of prokaryotes. Evolution is supposed to be all about the mechanism and yet evos are still searching! ET
Fred Hickson:
I still see no reason to give up on an evolutionary explanation for the genetic code and aaRSs.
Of course you don't! You don't care about evidence and science! And you are still an equivocating coward. Clearly there is something wrong with you. Good luck with that. ET
. #749 I think that’s a good idea. Allow me to suggest a question, properly worded: Aminoacyl tRNA synthetase (aaRS) play a fundamental role in establishing the genetic code. They are sizable proteins that are specified from genetic memory via mRNA. It stands to reason that they did not always exist on earth, which implies that there was once (at some point in the distant past) the very first time that an aaRS was successfully synthesized from that genetic memory and then went on to serve its role in establishing the genetic code. Regardless of what any person might propose to have occurred prior to that event, at that particular point in time, how many of the other aaRS would need to be in place? Upright BiPed
Just a quickie to UB. Do you think it unreasonable of me to ask for a clear statement of your hypothesis/argument or a link to it if it already exists on the internet? Fred Hickson
There was a thread here referencing an interview with Jack Szostak and UB pointed out that Professor Szostak did not mention aaRSs. I think I may just try emailing him on that issue. In fact, I'll draft something and post it here before sending, so that will avoid accusations of me asking leading questions. Too late even for insomniacs so might be tomorrow. Fred Hickson
SA
FH These are some of the points I’ve gathered from your input: — The environment is the designer
Yes, it is an essential non-random element that drives cumulative adaptive change.
— DNA is not a language, it’s not a symbol-set
DNA is not in any sense analogous to human language. You could use the word "symbol" in discussing the DNA codon system if you want.
— Evolution is not random – if God created the environment
And if not.
— Evolution is possible with functional DNA built by copy-errors and scaffolding.
Evolution happens now and has happened in the past. How life got started on Earth is unknown currently but it did happen nearly 4 billion years ago. How first life got from that start to the last universal common ancestor is what is in question. The LUCA possessed DNA and the universal genetic code was almost completely in place, aaRSs doing their job of charging amino acids to tRNA. How life got from start to LUCA is a huge and still open question and the few papers above are hints at the work in progress (some of which I am unaware of, I'm sure). Fred Hickson
@ Upright Biped It's from the film, Beetlejuice, 1988, perhaps a bit obscure now. Yes, in essence, earlier than ten years ago, I was skeptical of the RNA world idea and now I am not. Ten years ago I observed some of the back-and-forth (I remember Complexity Cafe) thinking the conundrum of how DNA and proteins could evolve was unanswerable. Since then my view on RNA world has changed and I now find it a very plausible precursor to what we see now. I noticed fairly recently your extended conversation with JVL, where you seemed persistent in trying to convince him of something. I was impressed how you both spent some much time and effort on the (to my mind irrelevant to biology) work of Howard Pattee without getting to what I think is the central issue, RNA world. So I chipped in. I can still and do say RNA World drives a coach and horses through your "semiotic" argument. Your expertise is in psychology? I thought you were in the business of radio stations. Fred Hickson
.
So, Upright Biped, it’s option 1.
The “Ancient Mariner routine”? Is that all you were after? I remember looking in the comment history and finding that you had posted the comment “Upright Biped Upright Biped Upright Biped” on June 3rd. You then did it again a day later, and then again, and again after that. Quite clearly, old sailor, you came here gunning for me. You called me out on a challenge, knowing full well that you couldn’t support your position. But supporting your position was never the point. Having the face-to-face opportunity to tell me to “give it up” is what this whole thing was about. And now you want to walk away while pointing your finger at me. If that’s what does it for you Fred, then knock yourself out. Make it the middle finger. Use both hands. The design inference has been documented in the history of science for well over half a century, it will certainly weather the insults of me. I am unimportant.
Best of luck.
Sure. To you as well. Upright BiPed
The belabouring against the well established does not bode well for materialistic origins thought. kairosfocus
FH These are some of the points I've gathered from your input: -- The environment is the designer -- DNA is not a language, it's not a symbol-set -- Evolution is not random - if God created the environment -- Evolution is possible with functional DNA built by copy-errors and scaffolding Silver Asiatic
So, Upright Biped, it's option 1. Fair enough. Best of luck. Fred Hickson
UB
Continuously referring to the documented historical confirmation (that the gene is a symbol system) as *my* theory and *my* hypothesis was a dead giveaway.
That FH has to deny that the gene is a symbol system - a communication network or coded-language process - is significant. Silver Asiatic
.
I am under the impression you have a hypothesis
This has always been your tell, Fred. You’re like the well-dressed man strutting confidently back to his chair with four or five feet of toilet paper stuck to the soul of his shoe. Continuously referring to the documented historical confirmation (that the gene is a symbol system) as *my* theory and *my* hypothesis was a dead giveaway. It’s been a big neon sign over your head from the moment you got here. So … this has all been under your skin for the last decade, eh? And now you’ve come here to tell me to just “let it go”. Imagine being so filled with anxiety about the symbolic nature of the gene system that you are willing to go out in public and be pummeled by documented science and history as long as you get to insult someone. I can have pity on your position, but I wonder about your strategy. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - SA, the genetic symbol system doesn’t “shatter evolution”, it is much worse than that. It’s what makes evolution physically possible to begin with. Upright BiPed
FH
SA, your comment at 738, as I am reading it, is somewhat incoherent and bears little relation to events. If you want, I can reply in more detail when I have time, though the sentiments won’t change.
That's ok - no need to reply. I appreciate your comment. Silver Asiatic
SA, your comment at 738, as I am reading it, is somewhat incoherent and bears little relation to events. If you want, I can reply in more detail when I have time, though the sentiments won't change. Fred Hickson
FH
I still see no reason to give up on an evolutionary explanation for the genetic code and aaRSs.
You've said previously that Upright Biped's semiotic concept was unanswerable - up until now that you have your RNA world proposal. You said something like you were willing to conceded that UB was correct, etc. but now you have something that shows that an evolutionary path actually is possible. But as Alan Fox or under any other pseuonym you used on this blog or elsewhere, I don't think you went around proclaiming that UB's hypothesis was correct (before you had your RNA defeater of him). Instead, you just kept hammering away as if UB was incorrect - while secretly thinking he was actually right. So, even though you knew UB was correct and semiotics had shattered evolution, you didn't give up on evolutionary speculations. Now you think you have something that saves evolution, but you have to start with a pre-existing, unexplained self-replicating molecule and then you just make the assumption that copy errors can create all the sequences needed for protein coding. Silver Asiatic
I am not chasing you around Fred.
Strange remark. I am under the impression you have a hypothesis sometimes referred to as your semiotic hypothesis. I've asked a few times if there is a definitive version that we can discuss. In the absence of any response to that, it is hard to see any way forward. Besides, what is the point of two pseudonymous commenters deep in an abandoned corner of this blog repeating what has already been said. I still see no reason to give up on an evolutionary explanation for the genetic code and aaRSs. I guess you have three choices: 1. Continue with the Ancient Mariner routine here with whomever gets accosted by you. 2. Write it up in a publishable form and submit it to a journal. What about Bio-complexity? Doug Axe could give you advice, I'm sure. Or Mike Behe? Both biochemists so in their wheelhouse. 3. Let it go.
You killed your own argument
Not really. I just think you are wasting your time bringing up the same gotchas on unsuspecting ID proponents posting here. If you really had something to shatter the evolutionary paradigm, why are you keeping it from the wider world? Fred Hickson
Fred Hickson Show me where there is symbolism in metabolism.
Actually is more symbolism in metabolism than in DNA. The hypothalamus make communication between the Central Nervous System and the endocrine system. The pituitary (subordinate to the hypothalamus)- controls the synthesis of pituitary hormones via specific releasing and release-inhibiting hormones and neurotransmitters which, in turn, stimulates secretion of a specific hormone by the target endocrine glands. The endocrine system consists of ductless glands that release their hormones into the bloodstream. The classic endocrine glands in higher vertebrates are the pituitary, the thyroid, the parathyroid, the pancreas, the thymus, and the gonads. Other organs in which clusters of secretory cells produce hormones are the liver (insulin-like growth factor 1), the kidney (renin, erythropoietin, and vitamin D3), the pineal gland (melatonin), and the endocrine cells of the gut. The total number of hormones in humans exceeds 130 (Norman and Litwack, 1997). The hypothalamus itself secretes its “releasing” hormones from nerve endings of its peptidergic neurons in response to electrical/chemical signals it receives from aminergic or cholinergic neurons in various brain centers (Norman and Litwack, 1997, p. 99), often through the limbic system. The median eminence (ME) alone secretes more than 40 neuropeptides and other chemical messengers. The hypothalamus monitors and regulates the body temperature, sodium chloride, glucose levels, and chemistry of body fluids in general. It controls most of the involuntary activities in the animal body, including innate behaviors. Through the pituitary gland, it determines the whole hormonal activity of the target endocrine glands, which is crucial for performing reproductive, developmental, behavioral, and other physiological functions. Besides the hormonal control, the hypothalamus exerts a direct control on the pituitary, via a special anatomical structure enabling the close interaction between the nervous and endocrine systems, represented by nerve endings of hypothalamic neurosecretory neurons that project into pars nervosa of the pituitary. This enables the hypothalamus to discharge its neurohormones directly into the portal vessels of the pituitary. The hypothalamus–pituitary–target endocrine glands axes represent the core of the neuroendocrine system, which plays a crucial role in maintaining homeostasis in vertebrates. The close relationship between the nervous and endocrine systems makes possible the well-known influence of external and internal environments on the activity of the endocrine system; the hypothalamus is a coordinating center that integrates various inputs to ensure a well-organized, coherent, and appropriate set of autonomic and endocrine responses. Changes in the external environment are perceived in the brain through the animal senses, and the hypothalamus is connected to the external world through the forebrain (Kandel and Schwartz, 1985). Based on the input of information it receives from other brain regions, the hypothalamus, by releasing specific hormones, via the pituitary, adaptively modifies the activity of the target endocrine glands, and it also serves as the site where other parts of the CNS interact with the autonomic system . The hypothalamus regulates secretion of many neurohormones in response to the temporal cyclicalities of the external environment. The two more important cycles are the daily (circadian) rhythm of light and darkness and the annual cycle of sea-sonal changes in temperature, length of the day, rainfall, salinity of the water, and other variables. Light, temperature, and other parameters of the external environment are received by sense organs, and the information is transmitted to the hypothalamus over neural pathways. Hypothalamic neurosecretions regulate the production of hormones of the anterior lobe of the pituitary, which promote reproductive activities such as gametogenesis and different forms of behavior (migration, territory defense, mating behavior, nest building, and care of eggs and young). The hypothalamus–pituitary–adrenal (HPA) axis is a major player in the vertebrate response to stress=all adaptations to environment. Lieutenant Commander Data
.
And have a glance at those papers when you get chance.
None of those cites describe the transition from dynamics to descriptions. None of them even try. If they HAD given such a description, you’d be posting it word-for-word. (Does this not seem rather obvious to you?) On the other hand … I cited one of the top 3 or 4 OoL researchers in the world today - a man who has actually built “self-replicating RNA ligase rybozyme networks” — telling you straight up that he sees no way in his experiments to build up a self-replicating system outside the dynamics of the RNA itself… and you stepped right over that and kept on selling. I am not chasing you around Fred. You killed your own argument; you never actually had one to begin with. A single question exposed that as a fact. Upright BiPed
The crap that Fredd accepts as science proves that he is not interested in any discussion. Read the papers he links to. Nothing but speculation based on the need. ET
. I have been absolutely clear from the very start of this charade that the transition from dynamics to descriptions is the critical step in you making your case. And you can’t do it. You can’t even do it conceptually. Not only can you not do it, but you actually resist it at all costs. I am clearly giving you every opportunity to make your case and you are running from it. Upright BiPed
. After gleefully telling us that your RNA World doesn’t have the fundamental parts required to specify proteins from mRNA, you don’t want your RNA World to then be judged by its ability to specify and replace all those required parts. Upright BiPed
.
No, I don’t.
Of course you do. You did on June 10th, by your own words (comment 727). You did on June 14th, by your own words (comment 728). Even now, when you typed the words “I don’t suggest any biochemically active suite of proteins can be constructed from polymers consisting of a single amino acid” — you knew what the question was. When you typed the words “I do suggest that twenty aaRSs did not need to exist prior to proteins being incorporated into RNA World organisms”, — you obviously knew what the question was. And when you typed the words “I concede that wasn’t your question” you clearly knew that you weren’t answering the question. “I don’t understand the question” is a dead excuse. Upright BiPed
And have a glance at those papers when you get chance. Fred Hickson
You clearly know what the question is.
No, I don't. I'm also beginning to wonder if you can answer your own question. Why not just go ahead and give your answer which might clarify what you consider to be a constraint and then I could agree or disagree and explain why. Fred Hickson
. From even further upthread … June 10th
UB: The establishment of the codon-to-anticodon relationship is spatially and temporally independent of the anticodon-to-amino acid relationship. This is what gives the system the degrees of freedom it requires in order to function as it does, where it is able to specify a particular protein, as well as any variation of that protein. In short, the systematic capacity of mRNA to carry the specification of an amino acid does not stem from the structure of the RNA, but from the structure of a separate molecule — a non-holonomic constraint, aaRS. Fred: I have no issue with this, even the “non-holonomic” which is strictly true as we are discussing (admittedly big) molecules, not robots.
Can we finally get past the dull “i don’t understand” detritus. You clearly know what the question is. Upright BiPed
. Today…
UB: So what is your answer? Fred: I still don’t know what you mean by a constraint
15 Days ago …. (specifically explaining “constraint” to S,A,)
UB: These 20 complex proteins are the aaRS (aminoacyl tRNA synthetase) — the constraints in the gene system. By performing their double recognition, they are the molecules in biology that establish the genetic code — they establish (constrain) the relationships between the (codon) symbols and their (amino acid) referents. 2 hours later … Fred: One! The answer to your question, Upright Biped, (now you have clarified) is one.
The word “constraint” isn’t the issue, it is understood. So what is your answer? Will you be forced to dodge the question again? Upright BiPed
Now, can I repeat my question to Upright Biped, Do you have a preferred version of your semiotic hypothesis that you can paste or link to? Fred Hickson
Here's another paper looking for evolutionary clues in comparing aaRSs which cover in much more detail points I have tried to raise. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7345086/ Fred Hickson
UB at 723
Here again is the question: Aminoacyl tRNA synthetase (aaRS) play one of the critical roles in establishing the description-based system. These are complex proteins that are specified from encoded memory.
What we see today in all the three domains of life, Archaea, Bacteria, Eukaryota are complex proteins that attach very specifically amino acids to their specific tRNA molecule in anticipation of later incorporation into a specific protein sequence from a specific messenger RNA sequence. However, there are exceptions that indicate specificity was not always so. Here is a paper that covers this ground in great detail.
They did not always exist on earth
Indeed, at one time, no life existed at all on this planet, though aaRSs seem to have evolved largely prior to the last universal common ancestor so are very ancient.
...which implies that there was once (at some point in the past) the very first time that an aaRS was successfully synthesized from memory and went on to serve its function.
Not sure what you mean by "from memory". There is, I guess, a first time for everything.
Regardless of what you believe may have come before that event occurred, at that point in time, how many of the other aaRS constraints has to be in place?
Not sure what you mean by a constraint in this context. The paper I cited above discusses the structure and stereochemistry in great detail.
You don’t deny that there was a point in earth’s history when the first ever aaRS was synthesized
No, but we have hints that aaRSs of lower specificity would have been adequate, especially with a smaller set of amino acids in play.
...from genetic memory and went on to serve its function of binding an amino acid to its cognate tRNA, thereby establishing the genetic code.
Well, that is what happens now. But if you already have a functioning organism, the whole new system that is so finely tuned that we see today does not have to appear all at once.
You also seem to understand how the cell specifies a protein during synthesis.
;)
So what is your answer?
I still don't know what you mean by a constraint in the context of the evolution of aaRSs so perhaps none that I know of would be my best answer. Fred Hickson
Upright Biped comment 720
From another thread… [quoting] Fred: My initial point that RNA World refutes Upright Biped’s hypothesis is sufficient.
If I understand correctly that Upright Biped is making a claim that the role of aaRSs could not have evolved, then I stand by that. Of course, Upright Biped has yet to restate his hypothesis or link to a previous version of his hypothesis confirming it to be still valid, so it would be good if he could do either.
If that were the case, then there would be no point whatsoever in extending a challenge.
What does "that" refer to? I'm making an observation. The plausibility of an RNA World offers an evolutionary pathway to DNA/RNA/protein world.
Your goal, as you stated in that challenge, was “to propose the steps that could have taken RNA world to DNA-protein world”
Was it? Well, there is a lot of circumstantial evidence for an RNA World. The fact of the emergent properties of RNA to start with, such as the property of forming mirror copies of itself which enable it to act as both replicator in the reproductive sense and to act as template for ribozymes. We see echoes of the crucial role of RNA in the structure of the ribosome. The establishment of an RNA World allows amino acids and proteins, their synthesis and involvement in metabolism to be drawn into RNA World as stepwise improvements rather than having to spring fully formed from the mind of god. The first step is that DNA begins to replace RNA as the gene storage vehicle. Again, emergent properties confer the ability for DNA to RNA replication. There is, as yet, no need for a genetic code. All involves direct templating. A possible in-route for protein is as structural molecules. Collagen, for example, has a very restricted sequence structure with high levels of glycine and proline or hydroxyproline in a regular pattern interspersed with any one of a set of other amino acids. Amino acids also have metabolic activity aside from their role as protein sub-units. There is also the question of promiscuity in metabolically active molecules such as proteins. Specificity and improved metabolic rate of enzymes can evolve from more promiscuous, less specific molecules. But, of course, we must consider the evolution of the genetic code, where currently in all extant organisms we know of (apart from RNA viruses) genes are stored as DNA sequences and translated into protein sequences via messenger RNA which is a complementary copy of a DNA sequence which then is used by a ribosome (also mainly RNA) to build protein sequences from amino acids attached to another type of RNA molecule called transfer RNA. How amino acids become attached to transfer RNA is the key to specificity. Now we come to amino acyl tRNA synthetases (aaRSs) where the idea of an arbitrary connection between DNA sequence and the relevant amino acid incorporated into a protein sequence becomes unavoidable. It is (for me at least) inconceivable that the arbitrary connection between triplet codon and amino acid could have evolved without a precursor environment allowing stepwise improvements in specificity. But given that, there are clues both in the genetic code and in the structure of the twenty-two aaRSs found in living organisms (not all twenty-two in all organisms - in itself a clue to the evolution of the current state) that hint at evolutionary pathways.
What steps did you propose?
See above for a start. Fred Hickson
. Here again is the question: Aminoacyl tRNA synthetase (aaRS) play one of the critical roles in establishing the description-based system. These are complex proteins that are specified from encoded memory. They did not always exist on earth, which implies that there was once (at some point in the past) the very first time that an aaRS was successfully synthesized from memory and went on to serve its function. Regardless of what you believe may have come before that event occurred, at that point in time, how many of the other aaRS constraints has to be in place? You don’t deny that there was a point in earth’s history when the first ever aaRS was synthesized from genetic memory and went on to serve its function of binding an amino acid to its cognate tRNA, thereby establishing the genetic code. You also seem to understand how the cell specifies a protein during synthesis. So what is your answer? Upright BiPed
. Again, from another thread …
UB: If you feel your suggestion that an aaRS need only be made of one single type of amino acid is somehow problematic … you are certainly welcome to vacate that suggestion. Fred: Thanks and my apologies for misreading. 1 No I don’t suggest any biochemically active suite of proteins can be constructed from polymers consisting of a single aminoacid. 2 I do suggest that twenty aaRSs did not need to exist prior to proteins being incorporated into RNA World organisms. 3 I concede that wasn’t your question.
Okay, so I asked the original question on June 11th, now 18 days ago. Since that time, we have likely exchanged a couple thousand words as the question is kicked around. Now that all of that is out of the way, what is your answer to the question? Upright BiPed
. From another thread… Fred: My initial point that RNA World refutes Upright Biped’s hypothesis is sufficient. If that were the case, then there would be no point whatsoever in extending a challenge. Your goal, as you stated in that challenge, was “to propose the steps that could have taken RNA world to DNA-protein world” What steps did you propose? None. Upright BiPed
Fred Hickson:
What I could do is assemble and refine those comments into one place. It could be a guest post here though I suspect that would not be welcome.
If you have science and evidence, it would be very welcome. But you do not have any science or evidence. So why even bother? ET
Yes, Fred- everything you have posted proves that you don't understand science nor evidence. Is that what you were aiming for? Nicely done. ET
tbdt typo in previous comment should read "that". For some reason, no edit button. Fred Hickson
I've read through my comments on this thread and I think I've covered everything I need to say regarding UBs hypothesis. What I could do is assemble and refine those comments into one place. It could be a guest post here though I suspect that would not be welcome. It could be elsewhere though I'm aware that folks here prefer not to travel. Ideally, UB could author an OP, as he hadn't yet indicated whether tbdt is a new or definitive existing version of his hypothesis. As KF has chipped in on UBs defence, maybe he'd like to put up an OP, with input from UB if practical. Though I do wonder why, as so many here are impressed with UBs presentation of his ideas, UB doesn't publish a formal paper. Isn't there an ID-friendly online journal? Bio-Complexity? Fred Hickson
Fred Fox:
I’ve not seen any previous discussion between Alan Fox and Upright Biped here.
The bulk of that discussion took place on the skeptical zone. ET
FH, the reality is,
1: you have no actual observed case of functionally specific complex organisation and/or information [FSCO/I] beyond 500 - 1,000 bits seen to arise by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity [as opposed to trillions seen by intelligently directed configuration]. Further, 2: there is simply no observational base that there was an actual as opposed to hypothesised RNA world. 3: Third, it is the case that the actual encoding in protein synthesis lies in the loading of tRNAs . . . which share an in-common, universal joint CCA tip that could couple to any AA [something exploited to create artificial molecules with additional AAs] . . . by the aaRS loading enzymes, which do carry out the double recognition to join the right tRNA to the right AA. Which 4: leads to a chicken-egg dilemma, as each of the many aaRS-es is a complex protein carrying out an enzymatic role. Linked, 5: the mRNA, transcribed and often edited from DNA, expresses a coded algorithm, with initial, onward and halting steps, tied to sophisticated polymer chemistry. That is, 6: we are looking at language and stepwise goal directed processes, which, _____________________________ 7: independent of any RNA world -- now exposed as a distraction -- are signatures of design, here 8: involving also profound understanding of polymer chemistry and of the possibilities for the complex process flow networks involved in cellular metabolism. 9: That is, design of cell based life from the root of the tree of life icon on up, is warranted on abductive inference to best explanation.
I am warranted to go further, we here see chapter zero of history on our planet, as string based code is text, here written in polymer chains. Text is antecedent to cell based life on our planet, and we have chain of custody on existence of such text through the world of life. That transforms history, especially i/l/o the observed cosmos being set at a fine tuned operating point that facilitates cell based life. KF kairosfocus
OK, found an exchange between Alan Fox and Upright Biped here from ten years ago. Doesn't seem to have anything to do with the present subject. Fred Hickson
Names matter when a person changes an alias but doesn’t reference himself as the previous one – it’s a question of honesty in the discussion.
I've not seen any previous discussion between Alan Fox and Upright Biped here. Nor have I had previous discussion personally with Upright Biped on the substantive issue of UBs semiotic hypothesis. Everyone here operates under a pseudonym, you, Upright Biped, Querius, ET, (previously posting under another alias? No harm in that, ET, surely). Or do you dispose of critics by doxxing them? Fred Hickson
Names matter when a person changes an alias but doesn’t reference himself as the previous one – it’s a question of honesty in the discussion.
I've not seen Fred Hickson
FH
Is it names or ideas that matter here, ET?
Names matter when a person changes an alias but doesn't reference himself as the previous one - it's a question of honesty in the discussion. Silver Asiatic
Your "ideas" are the same as Alan's. And they have been exposed as pure science-free drivel, many times over. I am just letting UB know so he understands the history at play. SETI is not a red herring. YOU just refuse to understand the CONCEPT of the argument. It's as if you are only able to apply your imagination to your fantasy RNA world. If SETI is a red herring, then the alleged RNA world is a red herring for the same reasons. Same Alan. Same clueless hypocrite. ET
SETI is a red herring, UB. Your claim is unaffected, neither supported nor undermined; it's a distraction. Fred Hickson
Is it names or ideas that matter here, ET? Who is correct rather than what is correct? Fred Hickson
Fred's reason for commenting was your odd persistence with JVL after it was obvious biochemistry is not his sphere of expertise. Not that I can claim much, but I can claim enough to grasp your point about aaRSs and the impossibility of them arising fully formed initially in an evolutionary scenario without something like an RNA World scenario. So here we are again. Fred Hickson
Forget it UB. Fred Hickson is Alan Fox. And he is thoroughly convinced his imaginary, fantasy RNA world somehow gets us to coded biology. It's all just an "evolutionary add-on". It's all evidence-free gibberish, too. But Alan doesn't care. And you know that Alan doesn't care. ET
. … returning from a short vacation. I’ve read through the comments. It appears it might be a good time for a quick summary. Fred issued a challenge where he was to “propose the steps that could have taken RNA world to DNA-protein world” … or more succinctly, the steps from dynamics to descriptions. I entered his challenge by asking two general questions. The first was about the design inference and the second was about the transition from his proposed dynamic replicator to the actual description-based replicator. The point of the first question was to demonstrate whether or not Fred was intellectually willing to acknowledge the substance (documented uncontroversial facts) of the position he was arguing against. The point of the second question was to demonstrate if Fred was prepared to address the actual physical system he was required to explain. Fred answered the first question by sharply denying that SETI would infer an intelligent source if it received a signal from space that contained encoded content. His reasoning behind that answer was that SETI hasn’t received any signals yet. That answer is not only logically incoherent, it is transparently evasive. Yet he stands by it. Fred then answered the second question with an equally incoherent answer. The question is simple: an aaRS is a complex protein that serves a critical function — it performs a double recognition of a particular tRNA and a particular amino acid. It then binds them together, thus establishing the genetic code. The entire gene system ceases to function without the aaRS. They are synthesized (specified) from genetic memory, and it stands to reason that there was once a very first time that this synthesis ever occurred. The question was specifically this: regardless of what anyone might believe occurred prior to that point in earth’s history; when the first ever aaRS was synthesized from memory and went on to serve its critical function, how many of the other aaRS had to be in place? Clearly, the question was intended to focus the discussion not on the speculated (unknown and undemonstrated) first ramblings of RNA replicators on a prebiotic earth, but on the actual steps involved in the transition from dynamics to descriptions (i.e. the actual core topic of Fred’s challenge). Fred’s eventual answer to this question was “One”. This is yet another completely incoherent answer. An aaRS made up of “one” amino acid cannot perform its function. No one would even suggest a thing. His answer is another transparent evasion. Fred has no intentions of addressing the documented physical requirements of the system he is attempting to explain. So now to Fred’s actual challenge, i.e. the transition from his speculated dynamic RNA replicator to the actual DNA/protein (description-based) replicator found in living things: It has been established by experiment (now over a sixty years ago) that the cell does not determine which amino acid is presented for binding in the ribosome based on the dynamic physical properties of the RNA triplet used as a messenger for that amino acid. The RNA is used only as a token of memory, requiring an interpretive constraint in order to function as it does. Full stop. The capacity of the gene system — to specify something among alternatives — is not based on a dynamic association between the amino acid and the messenger. It is a discontinuous association, which functions by not having that physical limitation. This enables the use of a code, which in turn enables the system to have the informational capacity to describe itself in a transcribable memory, making life (autonomous open-ended self-replication) possible. Physically, one of these processes is rate-dependent and reversible, the other is rate-independent and non-reversible. They are obviously not the same thing. Fred has stated that his goal in this challenge is to describe the evidence-based steps to get from the former to the latter. Thus far he hasn’t even acknowledged the distinction, much less provided any steps. Repeating over and over that his explanation begins by assuming the existence of a self-replicating RNA isn’t going to do the job he has set out for himself, even though that does appear to be the full extent of his explanation. Fred’s challenge ends with a blatant evasion on question 1, a blatant evasion on question 2, followed by an (evidence-free) argument-by-assertion on the challenge itself. The actual substance of the challenge was never even addressed. Indeed, he tells us twice that he has no idea how aaRS came into being in his RNA world. This is something he knew before he even issued the challenge. Fred’s goal here was never to explain the steps from dynamics to description. He is here to dance around the science and tread water long enough to get in another round of passive insults and mockery. The question “why” certainly comes to mind. People do what profits them. Upright BiPed
So, how about "the anticipation of design?" -Q Querius
Q, deliberate twisting is something we have to block as much as possible by careful phrasing, but that is not primary here. Presume conveys to many in effect assumption, likely from how we may presume and act. Inference to the best explanation is established usage in philosophy and in discussions about ID and methods, it is usually used. I strongly suggest avoiding a term liable to cause confusion of communicated meaning. KF kairosfocus
Relatd @700, (You score extra points for comments posted on even hundreds) So, after spontaneous assembly (SA), if I keep the Mustang's gas tank at nearly empty, do you think this environmental pressure will force it to evolve into an electric vehicle? What about starting small, like putting all the parts of its carburetor into a large paint can, which then can be set into a paint shaker machine? How long would I have to wait? Actually, I'll need to constantly watch the carb so it doesn't spontaneously disassemble (SD). Maybe that's why my doc told me I need to watch my carbs . . . -Q Querius
I'll take all the parts for a 1964 Mustang, put them in a garage with all of the necessary tools and tell a passer-by to assemble it. And then we have living cells... relatd
Bill Cole @696,
Where is the evidence that replication increases an organisms or arrangement of chemicals complexity.
No evidence needed, just a sincere belief in magic! Lieutenant Commander Data @697, Maybe that's why a Tesla hasn't spontaneously emerged from my garage despite an alarming number of loose parts available. And a Tesla is probably billions of times less complex than a "simple cell." -Q Querius
Kairosfocus @679,
Q, the point is, presumption carries other associations and connotations . . . we must not open up to predictable misunderstanding and twisting.
The deliberate twisting and misunderstanding will occur regardless (as amply demonstrated above). And it's also true what you point out regarding associations and connotations. Likewise language changes, often for its impoverishment. Not to mention that English thrives on paradox. When I say that I'm going out to dust the roses, am I adding dust or removing dust? Why do things cleave together but also cleave apart? "Dr Livingstone, I presume?" "How dare you presume upon me?" From Etymologyonline, we read
presume (v.) late 14c., presumen, "to take upon oneself, to take liberty," also "to take for granted, believe or accept upon probable evidence, presuppose," especially overconfidently, from Old French presumer (12c.) and directly from Latin praesumere "anticipate," in Late Latin, "assume," from prae "before" (see pre-) + sumere "to take, obtain, buy," from sus?, variant of sub? "up from under" + emere "to take" (from PIE root *em- "to take, distribute").
I'd like to rescue "presume" from etymological entropy, which will ultimately turn speech into grunts, But anticipate might do the job: The "anticipation of design" versus the "presumption of random junk" . . . -Q Querius
:)) Coded functional info is the molten iron for Darwin's snowman. Darwinists know that that's why they try to avoid discussions about code. If it's possible for some randoms natural events(hurricanes, vulcanoes, hydrotermal vents, earthquakes etc.) to produce a valid message on this website then yes would be possible for code to emerge randomnly. Unfortunately random natural events don't think, don't have internet subscription, don't have credentials wpa2 password then don't know how to make an account on this website, don't have the required devices, don't have the required intelligence. And a message here is nothing compared with cell complexity . Lieutenant Commander Data
So the conundrum of the genetic code becomes more tractable. I know UB feels my “One” answer was facetious but I am completely serious. Once you have RNA-world self-sustaining self-replicators, where RNA is replicating without any codes, simply by direct templating, there is opportunity for additional processes to add on. Once they are viable, the supporting processes and structures now superseded can fall away. An insuperable gap becomes a gentle hill to climb.
This relies on the idea of a simple to complex model with self replication being real. This is something that is assumed. Where is the evidence that replication increases an organisms or arrangement of chemicals complexity. bill cole
Learn how to read, Fred: “The RNA world is a hypothetical stage…”. I know that I have mentioned that, already. And the circumstantial evidence is all imaginary, too. You look at the way things work in modern cells and try to extrapolate that into “nature did it”. That RNA was intelligently designed to be a catalyst and an information carrier, in no way supports your imaginary scenario. No codes needed. No evidence needed, either. And no way to even test the claim. Then there is Spiegelman’s Monster. And I know why you would want to avoid that. There isn’t any connection from your “no codes needed” fantasy world to several codes mandatory real-life scenario. All you have is blind faith. ET
FH at 693, "emergent properties"? Blind, unguided chance and no goal. A bit like fish gills turning into the human middle ear. relatd
This RNA World, ET. I think I may have mentioned it already. A hypothesis without direct historical evidence but plenty of circumstantial evidence, especially the emergent properties of RNA which are available to all to verify. No codes needed either. Fred Hickson
Fred, your unsupported assertions are destroyed by the fact that there isn't any evidence nor science behind them. ET
FH, you know the facts, UB took your measure, you were found wanting. KF kairosfocus
Perhaps Upright Biped would like to destroy "my unsupported assertions" a second time, Querius. Or perhaps Querius can point out where this took place the first time. Fred Hickson
Haven't you already said that before? Actually, after his unsupported assertions were destroyed by Upright Biped, this is how Fred Hickson is bailing out rather than reply to Upright Biped's challenges with anything substantive. -Q Querius
I see folks (including me) are beginning to repeat themselves
99.99% of the comments on UD are repeats. Once or twice every few months something new appears. jerry
FH at 686, You are planning on trotting out the 'broken record machine' again? The, given enough time, anything - including human beings - is possible via blind, unguided chance? I don't think so. I have no reason to think so. relatd
Well, I see folks (including me) are beginning to repeat themselves. I'm grateful for the civil. respectful and challenging exchange of views. Perhaps Upright Biped will pick up the discussion in the future. I'll keep an eye out and anyone can reach me at fredhickson@protonmail.com Back to lurking unless something new provokes me to comment. Fred Hickson
FH at 678, But evolution proposes miracles - or happy accidents - at every turn. Start a car with no driver and aim it down the street. How long before it crashes into something? relatd
FH at 676, You're invoking the magic curtain again? Given enough time anything is possible? Given enough time, organisms upgrade - for no particular reason? Imagine an early earth where there are only four simple organisms. One gets an upgrade and outcompetes the rest. It becomes so numerous that it eats everything in sight. Eventually, the other three organisms die from starvation. Then the fourth runs out of food and it dies. Fred - you are not seeing the obvious outcome of your examples. relatd
If there was any evidence that blind and mindless processes could produce eukaryotes from the given populations of prokaryotes, ID would be falsified. Yet, there isn't any such evidence nor is there a way to test the claim. ET
Remember the salient point, folks. There isn't any evidence for any RNA world. Fred thinks that imagination and fantasy are evidence. And only desperate fools equate telic processes with miracles. However, it does take desperation to think that blind and mindless processes can produce coded information processing systems, and living organisms are ruled by them. Fred is not interested in science. Fred is only interested in the miracles that must have occurred for nature to produce life. ET
Why is Fred Hickson such an equivocating coward? No one is debating evolution, Fred. The debate is over the untestable claim that evolution BY MEANS OF BLIND AND MINDLESS PROCESSES produced the diversity of life. ET
FH, and the actually observed RNA world was reported _____ with ______ prizes? You are putting up empty speculation. KF kairosfocus
Q, the point is, presumption carries other associations and connotations on the ground and despite dictionary references [as I noted above], that is what will prevail. We need technical correctness, yes. But just as much, we must not open up to predictable misunderstanding and twisting. KF kairosfocus
Serious point. Science is limited to physical explanations while adhering to the observed properties of physical matter and energy. Science does not have the answer for everything (and may never have) so we have to choose between "we don't know" and "a miracle happens here". ID cannot both be science and propose miracles. Fred Hickson
@ Paxx Early life is the hard part. Once you have multicellular eukaryotes, it's largely topology. Cue ET "Evolution can't explain eukaryotes and multicellularity." Fred Hickson
Remember the salient point, folks. RNA world works without the triplet code. It is logically possible for life (albeit simple) to function without it and allow for parts to be added over time. And there's plenty of time, of the order of a billion years. Fred Hickson
Fred: Organisms have a goal. Live and reproduce. Goals are forward thinking. Your idiotic assertion is part of your unproven narrative. Lot's of organisms self-destruct. Life on earth is far more complex than your narrative can explain. Don't be stupid, Fred. Try again. Paxx
Fred Hickson:
So RNA replication happens, I hope we all agree.
Intelligently designed RNAs have replicated.
The foothold that gives RNA as a precursor for both DNA and protein also allows us to consider that the genetic triplet codon system for storing protein sequences could have evolved as an adjunct and not from thin air.
There isn't any foothold, Fred. That RNA replicates has nothing to do with DNA. DNA doesn't replicate. DNA gets replicated along with everything else in the cell. RNA replicating and being a catalyst isn't a precursor to the genetic code. You're just making stuff up.
So the conundrum of the genetic code becomes more tractable.
No, it doesn't. You are just making stuff up and filling in the blanks by ignoring the fact that there isn't any connection between the alleged RNA world and DNA-based life.
Once you have RNA-world self-sustaining self-replicators, where RNA is replicating without any codes, simply by direct templating, there is opportunity for additional processes to add on.
Total nonsense. Spiegelman's Monster refutes you. All Fred has is imagination and fantasy.
Organisms have a goal. Live and reproduce.
That isn't a goal, Fred. And just how do they know to do that? This is the problem with people like Fred. They think their imagination and fantasy world are actual evidence. And they will never be persuaded otherwise. Pathetic, really. ET
FH
Organisms have a goal. Live and reproduce.
The origins of that remain unexplained. At one point, there was just non-living material - chemicals, etc. They had no goal. They just existed or not. Then they combined and "became life" and then had a "goal to live and reproduce" -- because if they didn't live, they'd just fall back into being non-living chemicals again, and of course - nobody would want to do that. ??? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I've heard it explained as life being like soap bubbles. Their goal is to be a bubble until something comes along and breaks them. But they don't engage in a struggle to retain their bubbleness. It's the same kind of chemicals making non-living, uncaring and unthinking matter - as making life (supposedly). The goal of survival and reproduction needs a better explanation. Silver Asiatic
Kairosfocus @661, Thanks for your thoughts. I'm still dissatisfied with words that either seem (a) to imply coming to a conclusion or (b) making an arbitrary or overlooked assumption. Here's what dictionary.com notes about the comparison of the words assumption and presumption:
Assumption is a noun related to the verb assume, and refers to the act of taking for granted or supposing something. Likewise, presumption is a noun related to the verb presume, and refers to a belief on reasonable grounds or probable evidence.
So for example, if a portion of DNA is not understood and could be the result of either degradation or from design, why wouldn't it be acceptable to say one presumes design based on reasonable grounds or probable evidence based on numerous past discoveries? This is exactly what's been happening with so-called "junk" DNA and over a hundred once-called "vestigial" organs that turned out to have a function after all, such as the thyroid and other ductless glands. -Q Querius
FH at 670, Back to evolutionary psychology? We have a brain that could care less about truth just survival and reproduction? I don't think so. relatd
Evolution has no goal – no direction.
Organisms have a goal. Live and reproduce. Those organisms that are better at it than their competitors proliferate. Fred Hickson
And why would RNA develop further?
It hasn't. It has retained its key roles due to its unique (as far as I know) properties. You can't change an aircraft engine in mid-flight. Fred Hickson
That the triplet codon did not spring fully formed from the head of the Designer is also supported by circumstantial evidence. Here's a paper looking at precursors: https://biologydirect.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1745-6150-6-14 Fred Hickson
FH at 665 and 666, So, more wishful thinking? I've read through the presented scenarios and they are not convincing. Especially when considering a blind, unguided process upgrading anything to anything else like RNA being a precursor to DNA - by accident. "... there is opportunity for additional processes to add on. Once they are viable..." Why should anything add on to anything? Evolution has no goal - no direction. "An insuperable gap becomes a gentle hill to climb." Back to climbing Mount Improbable? And why would RNA develop further? More wishful thinking based on imagination not science. relatd
So the conundrum of the genetic code becomes more tractable. I know UB feels my "One" answer was facetious but I am completely serious. Once you have RNA-world self-sustaining self-replicators, where RNA is replicating without any codes, simply by direct templating, there is opportunity for additional processes to add on. Once they are viable, the supporting processes and structures now superseded can fall away. An insuperable gap becomes a gentle hill to climb. Fred Hickson
So RNA replication happens, I hope we all agree. The next amazing emergent property of RNA is in an aqueous medium it has catalytic properties. Whilst, in extant organisms, proteins have subverted this role almost completely, RNA still retains pivotal roles in cellular metabolism, the iconic example being in the ribosome, the cellular organelle involved in protein synthesis. But with both these emergent properties, we can conceive of two fundamental activities performed by the same RNA molecules, replication and catalysis. The foothold that gives RNA as a precursor for both DNA and protein also allows us to consider that the genetic triplet codon system for storing protein sequences could have evolved as an adjunct and not from thin air. Fred Hickson
Fred, the fact that there isn't any scientific theory of evolution is fatal to evolutionary theory. However, the semiotic argument is an argument against blind and mindless processes, such as natural selection and drift. And even given a RNA world, the great leap to DNA-based life remains. There isn't any link from the alleged RNA world to coded biology. Again, I remind you:
“Each day our DNA is damaged by UV radiation, free radicals and other carcinogenic substances, but even without such external attacks, a DNA molecule is inherently unstable. Thousands of spontaneous changes to a cell’s genome occur on a daily basis. Furthermore, defects can also arise when DNA is copied during cell division, a process that occurs several million times every day in the human body. The reason our genetic material does not disintegrate into complete chemical chaos is that a host of molecular systems continuously monitor and repair DNA. The Nobel Prize in Chemistry 2015 awards three pioneering scientists who have mapped how several of these repair systems function at a detailed molecular level. In the early 1970s, scientists believed that DNA was an extremely stable molecule, but Tomas Lindahl demonstrated that DNA decays at a rate that ought to have made the development of life on Earth impossible. This insight led him to discover a molecular machinery, base excision repair, which constantly counteracts the collapse of our DNA.” - The Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences https://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/2015/press.html
From the start, the DNA in DNA-based life had to carry the coding for the very proteins required to keep the DNA as a viable information carrier. Upright Biped's argument is fatal to any materialistic claims pertaining to the origin of life. As you have demonstrated the ONLY answer to the argument is pure imaginative fantasy. All evidence-free and untestable. Unfortunately, your curtain has been pulled back and you are exposed as someone who doesn't care about science. With me so far? ;) ET
Anyway, let me get back to UB's semiotic hypothesis. I hope interested parties have looked at the Wikipedia article on <a href="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_world">RNA World that I linked to above. First let me reiterate that UB's argument would be a good one, possibly fatal to evolutionary theory as applied to very early life if we were forced to consider the conundrum of the mechanism/process of storing information for replication/reproduction co-evolving with metabolic activity and the feedback between the two processes. However, if we consider the possibility of precursors to organisms adopting DNA/RNA/protein metabolism, the conundrum becomes less fatal. Briefly, in considering a precursor RNA world, we start with the emergent properties of RNA sequences. The most amazing is the property of complementary pairing. There are four RNA molecules (referred to as bases): adenine, cytosine, guanine and uracil, commonly abbreviated as A, C, T and U. RNA bases form linear sequences via a condensation bond (loss of H2O) resulting in linear sequences. But single strands of RNA will associate very specifically into complementary double strands in which individual bases pair up with each other but always G with C and A with U. What this means is RNA is a template for copies of itself. With me so far? Fred Hickson
I was there when it was announced that junk DNA was just leftovers from our allegedly long development. That these portions of DNA were functional at one time but as man ‘evolved,’ became unnecessary but were copied just the same.
Yes, well press releases have their own agenda. I'm seeing work being done to establish what the DNA in the human genome is doing there. It's a process. What is known today isn't what will be known in the future. Some DNA is known to be parasitic. It serves its own purpose, not that of its host. Yet that piece of DNA is open to neutral drift and could end up mutating to DNA that is useful to the host. These things are not written in stone but in DNA. Fred Hickson
Q, abductive inference is precisely not circular due to the comparison, implied by best, and the reliability of tested and reliable signs. As SEP points out, it is a commonplace of scientific and day to day reasoning. Science, as an inductive exercise, does not prove but provides warrant of potentially high credibility, as does high quality testimony or as can record, etc. Indeed, we may attain moral certainty, where one would be irresponsible to treat the claim as false given its known and accessible warrant. Deductive arguments which do prove do so relative to premises and that opens another can of worms. Start with, for even Math, a system comparable to arithmetic runs into Godel uncertainty. There is a lot more out there, KF kairosfocus
FH at 659, What scientific research? I was there when it was announced that junk DNA was just leftovers from our allegedly long development. That these portions of DNA were functional at one time but as man 'evolved,' became unnecessary but were copied just the same. https://evolutionnews.org/2007/06/wired_magazine_unashamedly_mix/ relatd
Darwinism: This portion of DNA has no apparent function. On the premise that this is the product of random change or entropy, we will call it “junk” DNA and not investigate further.
What an inane and inaccurate parody. Please try harder. :)
Intelligent Design: This portion of DNA has no apparent function. On the premise that this is the product of intentional intelligent design (regardless of whether it is or isn’t), we will NOT call it “junk” but investigate it further to try to determine whether it does have a function.
What you or anyone calls something is to give it a label. The scientific research (or in IDs case, lack of it) is the point. -Q Fred Hickson
Kairosfocus @655, The problem is that inductive and abductive reasoning are methods to come to a likely conclusion as are each of these.
1 “I don’t see Anne. She said she was tired, so she must have gone home to bed.” 2 “Sarah’s been at the gym a lot; she must be trying to lose weight.” 3 “Jacko is a dog, and all dogs love belly rubs. So Jacko must love belly rubs.”
The word I'm looking for is one that indicates a likely premise. Otherwise ID becomes a circular argument, in which we've already reached a conclusion and stop there. The word is also not "hypothesis," because we're not trying to prove ID, but rather to use the appearance of ID and past experiences to justify investigating something that's not understood. For example: Darwinism: This portion of DNA has no apparent function. On the premise that this is the product of random change or entropy, we will call it "junk" DNA and not investigate further. Intelligent Design: This portion of DNA has no apparent function. On the premise that this is the product of intentional intelligent design (regardless of whether it is or isn't), we will NOT call it "junk" but investigate it further to try to determine whether it does have a function. -Q Querius
ET, Yes, but maybe even though there isn't any actual evidence for it, it's at an unusually strong, even hyperactive, hypothetical stage, relentlessly driven by an inconceivably powerful ideological imperative! LoL -Q Querius
LoL! @ Fred- from wikipedia:
The RNA world is a hypothetical stage...
There isn't any evidence for any RNA world, Fred. ET
Q, The answer is context; first, abductive reasoning and inference to the best [current] explanation. SEP helps https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/abduction/
Abduction First published Wed Mar 9, 2011; substantive revision Tue May 18, 2021 In the philosophical literature, the term “abduction” is used in two related but different senses. In both senses, the term refers to some form of explanatory reasoning. However, in the historically first sense, it refers to the place of explanatory reasoning in generating hypotheses, while in the sense in which it is used most frequently in the modern literature it refers to the place of explanatory reasoning in justifying hypotheses. In the latter sense, abduction is also often called “Inference to the Best Explanation.” This entry is exclusively concerned with abduction in the modern sense . . . . Most philosophers agree that abduction (in the sense of Inference to the Best Explanation) is a type of inference that is frequently employed, in some form or other, both in everyday and in scientific reasoning . . . . Walking along the beach, you see what looks like a picture of Winston Churchill in the sand. It could be that, as in the opening pages of Hilary Putnam’s book Reason, Truth, and History, (1981), what you see is actually the trace of an ant crawling on the beach. The much simpler, and therefore (you think) much better, explanation is that someone intentionally drew a picture of Churchill in the sand. That, in any case, is what you come away believing. In these examples, the conclusions do not follow logically from the premises. For instance, it does not follow logically that Tim and Harry are friends again from the premises that they had a terrible row which ended their friendship and that they have just been seen jogging together; it does not even follow, we may suppose, from all the information you have about Tim and Harry. Nor do you have any useful statistical data about friendships, terrible rows, and joggers that might warrant an inference from the information that you have about Tim and Harry to the conclusion that they are friends again, or even to the conclusion that, probably (or with a certain probability), they are friends again. What leads you to the conclusion, and what according to a considerable number of philosophers may also warrant this conclusion, is precisely the fact that Tim and Harry’s being friends again would, if true, best explain the fact that they have just been seen jogging together. (The proviso that a hypothesis be true if it is to explain anything is taken as read from here on.) Similar remarks apply to the other two examples. The type of inference exhibited here is called abduction or, somewhat more commonly nowadays, Inference to the Best Explanation.
Inference to the best [current] explanation [IBE] is often, specifically, inference on tested, reliable sign. This form, on the record, goes back to Hippocrates of Kos and medical diagnostics. Obviously, it is doubly testable, degree of reliability of the sign and predictive power. It is also a case of the degree of warrant for knowledge in the weak form commonly used sense that is regarded as reliable but open to amendment, refinement or correction. Namely, warranted, credibly true [so, reliable] belief. Belief here implies prudent willingness to accept and act on it in a context where error might be costly. Of course, with probability calculus, one may form a further claim, where what is warranted and acted on would be probability estimates, e.g. 80 percent chance of rain vs 1 percent. As to inference https://literaryterms.net/inference/
I. What is Inference? An inference is the process of drawing a conclusion from supporting evidence. It’s when you go beyond the evidence and reach some further conclusion. We draw inferences all the time when we say things like: 1 “I don’t see Anne. She said she was tired, so she must have gone home to bed.” 2 “Sarah’s been at the gym a lot; she must be trying to lose weight.” 3 “Jacko is a dog, and all dogs love belly rubs. So Jacko must love belly rubs.” This sort of inference is the basic building block of all arguments. We also make inferences when we read literature. The author gives us clues about what’s going on, and we have to figure things out based on that evidence. The author implies; the readers infer. (For the sake of simplicity, this article will focus on the inference process rather than the implication process.) Inferences can be good or bad depending on how logical they are. The first example here is pretty good, the third is very good, and the second is actually bad.
The key concept here is, degree of support. In the modern sense, abduction is inductive, argument on support as opposed to strict entailment. The latter is the hallmark of deductive reasoning. Which also brings out the prudence implicit in reliability based on degree of warrant. For first example, a deductive chain is valid, but soundness depends on the truth of premises. It is possible to have valid but unsound arguments. Often, premises are in fact widely accepted inductively founded conclusions. Socrates is a man and men are mortal, imply ability to recognise reliably that X is a man, and mortality of men is a general induction, not just on observing graveyards etc, but even on our bodily constitution. For a second case, that we see smoke rising warrants an inference of fire. However, not all fires are smoky, and it is possible that we may find a way to create or release smoke without a combustion in the near proximity. So, smoke is a reliable but not necessarily absolute sign of fire. [Compare, the design inference and associated, per aspect explanatory filter.] In real arguments, obviously, induction and deduction are typically deeply intertwined. In this context, IBE is a non-ambiguous term, presumption is not and the latter unfortunately invites the reading, bald and perhaps question begging assumption. In a context where selective hyperskepticism is common, consequences are only too predictable. So, I suggest a contextual modification of policy as a point of prudence. KF kairosfocus
Well, will have more time tomorrow but I just glanced at the Wikipedia entry for RNA World.. It saves me writing stuff as it covers the ground well with plenty of references. I just need to cover the points that aren't emphasized. Tomorrow morning, I can get back to a big screen. PS Hope you had a good trip, UB. Fred Hickson
Querius: African grooved spheres Hmm, it looks kinda like one of these: https://tinyurl.com/stone82971 Paxx
UB @644 - excellent. Thank you Silver Asiatic
Wow! Thank you, Upright Biped. Wouldn't it wonderful if the sciences would do a better job at identifying what's purely speculation and what we've actually observed or experimentally been able to verify? This applies to many of the sciences, including geology, biology of course, quantum mechanics and the Standard Model, gravity, to name a few. Personally, I'd like to see more fully investigated the fine tuning of organisms to ecosystems, which becomes apparent in the failures in computer simulations. Kairosfocus @639
Q, I know you are fond of the word presume but its meaning is too ambiguous for this contentious, polarised, confused context. KF
Yes, I’m fond of using accurate words to say what I mean. The word I need exists somewhere on a continuum between "speculate" and "conclude." The word should express a reasonable first guess based on inductive reasoning after repeated empirical confirmations. Words on that continuum include guess, assume, suppose, presuppose, presume, surmise, suspect, and expect. I’m sure there are others I missed. Another word often used is infer, as in “if it looks designed, we should infer that it is.” But the word infer is still a type of conclusion. The word “assume” sounds too lax and "theorize" sounds too formal and stilted. Here’s an example. How does one approach the mystery of African grooved spheres? https://assignmentpoint.com/the-grooved-african-sphere/ Based on geological context alone, I’d ________ a natural origin. If other evidence emerges such as a molds for geopolymers or tools used in machining them, I’d abandon my __________. Likewise, based on numerous examples and inductive reasoning with respect to biological structures, I think it’s reasonable and pragmatic to ________ Intelligent Design when encountering a mysterious biological structure. How would you fill in the blanks? -Q Querius
. You’re just positioning Fred. You’ve known all along that you couldn’t refute the science and history, and now you’ve advised me to just give it up. In an hour, my wife and I are taking our grandson on a little vacation. We are going to a zoo, visiting an observatory, and attending a star party at 6,800 feet. adiós Upright BiPed
How life originated dictates how it subsequently evolved. And it is very telling that evos ignore that fact. ET
as to: ‘given self-sustaining self-replicators’
Why Naturalism CANNOT Explain the Origin of Life - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0TIyk2CQO4 Can a living cell be built by mere chance or the bare necessities of natural law acting on dead matter? How did the genetic code originate? Can naturalistic processes explain the origin of the protein production process in the cell? In this interview, I’m joined by Rob Stadler (Ph.D. Medical Engineering MIT) who has written about the question of the origin of life in his book “Stairway to Life.” He sheds light on several biochemical phenomena which elude naturalistic explanations and raises the question of whether the methodological naturalism prevalent in the sciences is still justified. The truth is that various aspects of the cell machinery resemble the kind of systems human engineers come up with. Accordingly, the question of whether biochemical structures have been engineered or designed is raised naturally. Check out Rob’s work here: https://www.scientificevolution.com/ 0:00 Intro 1:39 What got you into science? 2:18 Why study the origin of life? 5:54 Widespread misconceptions 7:25 Plausibility of naturalistic processes? 10:00 Stadler’s case in summary 11:30 Homochirality of building blocks 15:05 Consistent linkage of building blocks 18:11 Biopolymer reproduction 22:15 Self-defeating experiments? 24:54 Repairing biopolymers 28:56 Cell membranes 33:49 Harnessing energy 38:32 Why do naturalistic hopes persist? 40:51 Methodological naturalism 44:19 Objections to Rob’s case? 47:35 God or naturalism of the gaps? 51:43 The Urey-Miller experiment 52:58 Changing philosophy of science? 56:46 Polarization 57:59 Harold Urey’s article of faith
Verse:
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
bornagain77
FH, that is precisely what cannot be a given. OoL is the centre of the matter, as Smithsonian acknowledged, the root of the tree of life. KF kairosfocus
Just one quick point. No time to look back but I hope I included the caveat 'given self-sustaining self-replicators'. I have no explanation about life's origin. Fred Hickson
Excellent reference, UB. Much food for thought. RL calls still. Will get back to you in a day or so. Fred Hickson
. I don’t think Fred ever told us which type of RNA replicator he sees as the magic bullet here. Is it the type that can freely assemble itself, base by base, from a pool of available parts? That’s certainly a persnickety version. So far that version hasn’t been shown to be robust enough to even copy the RNA script causing the reaction, much less specify a protein on the side. Or maybe what Fred has in mind is the self-replicating ribozyme? That’s another tough one. But what about the cross-catalytic ligase ribozyme, from Gerald Joyce’s team? That’s the six-piece version where they create four specific RNA substrates that become linked together based on two complimentary RNA templates. Template 1 links two substrates together to create Template 2, and Template 2 does the same with the other two substrates to create Template 1. One template is 66 bases long, if I remember correctly, and the other is 78. It’s a reaction that can go on forever as long as a steady supply of the four individual substrates are created and fed into the system at balanced levels. If it falls out of balance, the system runs into troubles. The upside for Fred is that there is a short patch of bases in each template that are outside the catalytic domain, and aren’t critical – i.e. they can be changed around. Perhaps this is where Fred sees an opportunity to specify some protein? Of course, the downside is that the reaction fails in the presence of protein or other biological materials. So there’s that. When Gerald Joyce published on this cross-catalytic ligase ribozyme, he talked about the potential of forming autocatalytic networks of these replicators in order to study various concepts in replication, and he made a clear distinction between the type of templated RNA replication found in his experiments (which is based on the dynamic properties of RNA), versus the kind of replication that occurs in the living cell — that this, replication using the separate “replication machinery” of the aaRS, tRNA, ribosomes, etc. He stated “It is difficult to see how one would devise autocatalytic networks that allow optimization of a replicative machinery that is distinct from the templating properties of the molecule.“ Perhaps Fred intends to share something Gerald Joyce is missing. Upright BiPed
To sum up the discussion between upright biped and Fred: upright biped presents an argument based on evidence, observations and experiences. In other words, our knowledge of cause-and-effect relationships. Fred presents an argument based on fantasy and imagination. It is an argument without evidentiary support. And Fred doesn't have any intention of providing any evidence for any alleged RNA world. And he will never provide any evidence that this alleged RNA world can lead to DNA-based cellular life. DNA is neither a replicator nor a catalyst. And it needs to hold the coding for the very proteins required to keep it as a viable information carrier-> right from the start. ET
Relatd @605 It's an interesting approach and I know some people who oppose ID because for them, "ID does not give the full truth about life and the origin of things". In other words, if we could say (as I believe), the truth about the world and life and origins requires a belief in religious teachings which give us the truth about what God did -- then when we see ID which just uses physical science, we might wonder why the fuller truth is being hidden. I think that's a good question. For the sake of "science alone" - ID only addresses certain things. It's for the sake of people who think that science-alone can give us answers about reality. Silver Asiatic
Fred Hickson:
Sorry to those waiting for responses from me.
We already know what your response won't actually respond to anything. We are still waiting for the evidence for any RNA world. But we also know that you will never present any ET
JVL:
No, my goal is to see if ID has any predictive power. So I ask if anyone can provide a repeatable situation which gives an outcome predicted by ID.
Already have. So, your goal is to prove that you are a willfully ignorant troll ET
Q, I know you are fond of the word presume but its meaning is too ambiguous for this contentious, polarised, confused context. KF PS, note:
presume belief on reasonable grounds; in law, to assume as true in the absence of proof to the contrary; to undertake with unwarrantable boldness; to undertake without permission: presume to speak for someone else; go too far in taking liberties; also some of the same meanings as assume, such as presuppose and take for granted Not to be confused with: assume – to take for granted: Don’t assume the old bridge is safe.; suppose; postulate; to take upon oneself: assume an obligation; to take on, adopt: assume a virtue; to feign: assume an innocent demeanor; to take on the debts or obligations of another: assume the loan Abused, Confused, & Misused Words by Mary Embree Copyright © 2007, 2013 by Mary Embree pre·sume (pr?-zo?om?) v. pre·sumed, pre·sum·ing, pre·sumes v.tr. 1. To take for granted as being true in the absence of proof to the contrary: "I presume you're tired after the long ride" (Edith Wharton). 2. To constitute reasonable evidence for assuming; appear to prove: A signed hotel bill presumes occupancy of a room. 3. To venture without authority or permission; dare: He presumed to invite himself to dinner. v.intr. 1. To take for granted that something is true or factual; make a supposition. 2. To act presumptuously or take unwarranted advantage of something: Don't presume on their hospitality. [Middle English presumen, from Old French presumer, from Late Latin praes?mere, from Latin, to anticipate : prae-, pre- + s?mere, to take; see em- in Indo-European roots.] pre·sum?ed·ly (-zo?o?m?d-l?) adv. pre·sum?er n. American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2016 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved. presume (pr??zju?m) vb 1. (when tr, often takes a clause as object) to take (something) for granted; assume 2. (when tr, often foll by an infinitive) to take upon oneself (to do something) without warrant or permission; dare: do you presume to copy my work?. 3. (intr; foll by on or upon) to rely or depend: don't presume on his agreement. 4. (Law) law to take as proved until contrary evidence is produced [C14: via Old French from Latin praes?mere to take in advance, from prae before + s?mere to assume] presumedly adv pre?sumer n pre?suming adj pre?sumingly adv Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged, 12th Edition 2014 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2011, 2014
While there is legitimate usage, presume readily feeds the prejudice that the design inference is a question begging first resort. Instead we have inference on reliable sign. Being technically correct on a rarer sense of a term here does not help us to communicate clearly. kairosfocus
JVL, are you aware that for classic instance the laws of thermodynamics are cast in the form of reliable but inherently provisional predictions? In particular if you can build a reliable perpetuum mobile, they will fail, that is a test point. KF PS, without endorsement, for convenience, Wikipedia:
One classification of perpetual motion machines refers to the particular law of thermodynamics the machines purport to violate:[19] A perpetual motion machine of the first kind produces work without the input of energy. It thus violates the first law of thermodynamics: the law of conservation of energy. A perpetual motion machine of the second kind is a machine that spontaneously converts thermal energy into mechanical work. [--> this can include work to construct or compose an entity exhibiting FSCO/I, work being forced, ordered motion] When the thermal energy is equivalent to the work done, this does not violate the law of conservation of energy. However, it does violate the more subtle second law of thermodynamics (see also entropy). The signature of a perpetual motion machine of the second kind is that there is only one heat reservoir involved, which is being spontaneously cooled without involving a transfer of heat to a cooler reservoir. This conversion of heat into useful work, without any side effect, is impossible, according to the second law of thermodynamics. [--> also, artifacts rich in info from noise] A perpetual motion machine of the third kind is usually (but not always)[20][self-published source] defined as one that completely eliminates friction and other dissipative forces, to maintain motion forever due to its mass inertia (Third in this case refers solely to the position in the above classification scheme, not the third law of thermodynamics). It is impossible to make such a machine,[21][22] as dissipation can never be completely eliminated in a mechanical system, no matter how close a system gets to this ideal (see examples in the Low Friction section). Impossibility October 1920 issue of Popular Science magazine, on perpetual motion. Although scientists have established them to be impossible under the laws of physics [--> better, forbidden by and so tests of though few take such seriously now] , perpetual motion continues to capture the imagination of inventors.[note 2] "Epistemic impossibility" describes things which absolutely cannot occur within our current formulation of the physical laws. This interpretation of the word "impossible" is what is intended in discussions of the impossibility of perpetual motion in a closed system.[23] [--> this seems an abuse of epistemology, wiser would be reference to confidence but open to falsification] The conservation laws are particularly robust from a mathematical perspective. Noether's theorem, which was proven mathematically in 1915 [--> roots in assumptions careful of circularities], states that any conservation law can be derived from a corresponding continuous symmetry of the action of a physical system.[24] [--> action is an energy based concept, typically measured in Joule seconds]The symmetry which is equivalent to conservation of energy [--> circle] is the time invariance of physical laws. Therefore, if the laws of physics do not change with time [--> a key inference], then the conservation of energy follows. For energy conservation to be violated to allow perpetual motion would require that the foundations of physics would change.[25] Scientific investigations as to whether the laws of physics are invariant over time use telescopes to examine the universe in the distant past [--> implicit chain of inferences] to discover, to the limits of our measurements, whether ancient stars were identical to stars today. Combining different measurements such as spectroscopy, direct measurement of the speed of light in the past and similar measurements demonstrates that physics has remained substantially the same, if not identical, for all of observable time spanning billions of years.[26] [--> we have not directly observed the past, we have inferred it based on what we observe and what we assume leading to calculated results. As a contrast note observed star magnitude temp plots showing breakaway from main sequence, which we interpret as aging of clusters etc] The principles of thermodynamics are so well established, both theoretically and experimentally, that proposals for perpetual motion machines are universally met with disbelief on the part of physicists. [--> disbelief is not the same as that the attempt is in principle a potential falsification in principle though perhaps naive] Any proposed perpetual motion design offers a potentially instructive challenge to physicists: one is certain [--> not on logical necessity but on confidence in the standing results] that it cannot work, so one must explain how it fails to work [--> expects to is better]. The difficulty (and the value) of such an exercise depends on the subtlety of the proposal; the best ones tend to arise from physicists' own thought experiments and often shed light upon certain aspects of physics. So, for example, the thought experiment of a Brownian ratchet as a perpetual motion machine was first discussed by Gabriel Lippmann in 1900 but it was not until 1912 that Marian Smoluchowski gave an adequate explanation for why it cannot work.[27] However, during that twelve-year period scientists did not believe that the machine was possible. They were merely unaware of the exact mechanism by which it would inevitably fail. [--> notice the conflation with logical necessity] The law that entropy always increases, holds, I think, the supreme position among the laws of Nature. If someone points out to you that your pet theory of the universe is in disagreement with Maxwell's equations — then so much the worse for Maxwell's equations. If it is found to be contradicted by observation — well, these experimentalists do bungle things sometimes. But if your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to collapse in deepest humiliation. —?Sir Arthur Stanley Eddington, The Nature of the Physical World (1927) In the mid-19th-century Henry Dircks investigated the history of perpetual motion experiments, writing a vitriolic attack on those who continued to attempt what he believed to be impossible: "There is something lamentable, degrading, and almost insane in pursuing the visionary schemes of past ages with dogged determination, in paths of learning which have been investigated by superior minds, and with which such adventurous persons are totally unacquainted. The history of Perpetual Motion is a history of the fool-hardiness of either half-learned, or totally ignorant persons."[28] —?Henry Dircks, Perpetuum Mobile: Or, A History of the Search for Self-motive (1861)
This gives a comparison, note the design inference agrees with and extends to information considerations, thermodynamics. There is an informational school of thought. Complex work that produces FSCO/I does not arise spontaneously from lucky noise and natural trial and error due to blind needle in haystack search challenge. kairosfocus
EDTA, JVL, there is a prediction, frankly a fairly direct extension of thermodynamic reasoning. FSCO/I, deeply isolated in possibility spaces -- look up configuration or state space -- will continue to be observed only as result of intelligently directed configuration where actual cause and not replication is involved. This has been on the table since Paley in Ch 2 of his work, which engages scientific issues tied to the thought exercise of a self replicating watch. He anticipated von Neumann by 150 years on self replication. And yes, prediction and naive falsifiability are of limited utility in science. JVL needs to stop setting up and knocking over strawmen. KF kairosfocus
FH, understood, best. Two weeks time, I deal with two funerals and four dead on one day. KF kairosfocus
Relatd @605,
That’s not true. Period.
Yes, it is. You're conflating Catholicism with ID. ID takes no position on the source of Intelligent Design. Period. It is not a theological position. However, the last time I checked, Catholicism believes in God. Here are two histories of ID written by two of its proponents: https://intelligentdesign.org/articles/the-origin-of-intelligent-design/ https://intelligentdesign.org/articles/a-brief-history-of-intelligent-design/ -Q Querius
Sorry to those waiting for responses from me. Family time takes precedence. Fred Hickson
Relatd/630
Seversky at 629, Why are you here? Seriously. Your existence has no special meaning or purpose? Is that right?
As far as I know, that's right. What is yours? Seversky
The "Magic" of Molecular Switches. https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2021/10/421646/how-cells-multitask-magic-molecular-switches relatd
JVL please slow down: >If ID is a science and has predictive power.. As I and a bunch of other people above have pointed out, not all science is predictive. For a trivial example, say a scientist observes a protein being manufactured in a living cell, transported somewhere, and then being incorporated into a membrane. That was all observation--no predictions being made. Yet it increased our knowledge to discover it. You are so focused on what you think is a knock-it-out-of-the-park home run argument, that you are not thinking circumspectly anymore. >What is unreasonable about my question? It’s the same I would ask of any science. Wouldn’t you? No, because I just gave you a counter-example of an area of science where I would not ask any predictive questions. The observation itself was the discovery. >Really? So you think checking to see if gravitation waves (as predicted by Einstein’s theories of relativity) was being unscientific? I never said anything near that. In fact, as I hinted at in my post, theoretical physics does indeed try to make predictions, which experimental physics then tries to confirm/disconfirm. You are attempting to apply a principle from one kind/area of science into another one where it doesn't fit, and you can't even see what is wrong with your perspective. You need a larger perspective on this matter, rather than trying to apply a litmus test across all areas of human inquiry. >I don’t understand. Are you saying that science can be done without making predictions? What have you got without that? Direct observations of things happening, such as inside living cells. That's what you have. And that by itself can be useful knowledge. Why would I have to predict anything about that protein to verify that it exists and performs a particular function? EDTA
Seversky at 629, Why are you here? Seriously. Your existence has no special meaning or purpose? Is that right? relatd
I believe the evidence that living things change over time is irrefutable and the theory of evolution is the best account we have to date of how those changes happen. It is neither perfect nor complete. There is still much that we don't know and maybe even never will but it's human fear that drives the search for a special meaning or purpose for our existence, not the evidence. Seversky
Andrew at 625, I believe evolution is completely incapable of working as advertised in Biology textbooks. It is given human qualities like insight and foresight. It develops novel features for no particular reason and these get selected, allegedly. But if the environment changes quickly, there's not enough time for the organism to "evolve" anything. It dies. Instead, evolution cannot be considered incapable since it underpins a worldview that requires it. relatd
No, my goal is to see if ID has any predictive power. So I ask if anyone can provide a repeatable situation which gives an outcome predicted by ID.
ID is essentially a method used to detect design in nature. If the universe is indeed the product of design a prediction would be that we will continue to see evidence that fits the detection method. If I look at a diagram of gene families in different animals I would expect them to follow a strict inheritance pattern if common descent is the cause of the pattern. If design is the cause of the pattern I would expect a mixing and matching of these gene sets that are animal specific (a purposeful arrangement of genes) and do not follow a strict inheritance pattern. In this case the design prediction turns out to be true as you will see from Winstons paper. bill cole
SA: If there’s one chance in 10^20 then some of us will say that the case is closed. But yes, you can say “it still might happen”. JVL: Thank you. I agree.
This is not a question for you to give agrrement as you would with an opinion. It's just a fact. If there's "one chance" within any number of opportunities, then it "could happen" - that's the nature of chance. However, in arguments or theories or proposals, we speak of what is "reasonable". If a person said that the success of his idea depended on one chance in 10^20 occuring tomorrow, we would say that's "not a reasonable proposal". In fact, a person who insisted on the rightness of his view in light of that, himself, would be considered "not a reasonable person". So, we do look for that. Silver Asiatic
“it still might happen”. If this is a person's criteria to believe in something, then they believe in a lot of stupid sh*t that never happens. Andrew asauber
JVL
“will never” and “so far”.
Yes, that's how scientific prediction works. The prediction is "will never". Testing then reveals what has occurred "so far". Scientific theories are provisional. Will all the laws of nature remain exactly as they are tomorrow? We predict but do not know for certain. Silver Asiatic
SA at 622, I've given the explanations. I've defended my position. Yet some here still insist it's not enough. Too bad. I can link to anyone who doesn't know what I said as long as it's relevant. I can link to books that explain what I said. I don't understand the pseudo-conflict you're creating. relatd
relatd
They expect me to do their homework for them
You're expected to defend whatever claims you make. Linking to someone else's ideas is not a defense of your own since they don't know what you said. When you're asked for evidence, you should give the evidence. When you're asked for an explanation, you should give the explanation. Silver Asiatic
Silver Asiatic: There either is evidence of intelligent design in nature (if so, ID is true) or there isn’t (then ID is false). ID predicts that there is evidence of intelligent design in nature. Yes, but it's not clear if that is true or not. The question I have tabled is independent of that issue. Which is why we don't have to deal with that issue to answer my question. So far, we observe things that cannot be explained by known natural causes but which could be explained by intelligent design. It is predicted that these things will never be explained by a natural cause – and so far, that prediction has been successful. "will never" and "so far". Seems to me you haven't got a closed case yet. If there’s one chance in 10^20 then some of us will say that the case is closed. But yes, you can say “it still might happen”. Thank you. I agree. JVL
Vividbleau: I am not interested in your question nor was it directed towards me so no I am not answering your question till you answer mine. Well, let's see if anyone can answer my question. No one seems to be trying. JVL
Bill Cole: Sure you can and in certain cases this is practical and informative and in certain cases it is not. Your attempt here is to try and define science in such a way to make ID outside science. No, my goal is to see if ID has any predictive power. So I ask if anyone can provide a repeatable situation which gives an outcome predicted by ID. JVL
SA at 616, I don't understand why you don't understand. I have posted a link that shows ID is science, and what it does, but apparently, some are too lazy to go there to get their questions answered. They expect me to do their homework for them. It includes the scientific arguments. relatd
SA at 614, As more specific functions are discovered, the odds that any of it happened by chance are dropping by orders of magnitude. The math has been done. Allegedly, given enough time, evolution can create - yes, some think this - human beings, and here's the error - by accident - pure chance. However, it can be shown that there is not enough time. Not enough time for the alleged mutations to do everything they are credited with doing. relatd
Relatd
the overwhelming evidence for design in biology
How do you present this case scientifically? Silver Asiatic
JVL
Okay. So why do so many ID proponents claim the case is closed?
If there's one chance in 10^20 then some of us will say that the case is closed. But yes, you can say "it still might happen". Silver Asiatic
JVL'
SA: ID is either true or false. JVL: What? Seriously? This is crazy.
There either is evidence of intelligent design in nature (if so, ID is true) or there isn't (then ID is false). ID predicts that there is evidence of intelligent design in nature. So far, we observe things that cannot be explained by known natural causes but which could be explained by intelligent design. It is predicted that these things will never be explained by a natural cause - and so far, that prediction has been successful. Silver Asiatic
Bill Cole: The claim is not that it would never happen the claim is it is unlikely Okay. So why do so many ID proponents claim the case is closed? JVL
JVL “Let’s see if you can answer my question first which I shall restate:” I am not interested in your question nor was it directed towards me so no I am not answering your question till you answer mine. Vivid vividbleau
. Now that you’ve beat your chest, stop and think about it. Upright BiPed
Fred Hickson:
I’m at least as serious as you Jerry.
And yet jerry doesn't ignore science and evidence. That's what you do. ET
UB at 607, Are you trying to be ridiculous? I have quoted the Bible. I have posted that God will not be mocked, and to not bow to the pagan god - Evolution. relatd
That cells use proof-reading, error-detection, error-correction, editing and splicing is evidence for immaterial information inside of cells. That scientists cannot create life in a lab is evidence for immaterial information inside of cells. Because if cells were reducible to physics and chemistry scientists should be able to create life in a lab. So, either scientists are just plain stupid- in which case no one should listen to them with respect to evolution and the OoL- or life is not reducible to physics and chemistry. Intelligent Design predicts that life is not reducible to physics and chemistry. ET
. Relatd No need for you to make any proper distinctions. No need for you to concern yourself with the housewife in Idaho or the office worker in St Louis. You go ahead and serve the purpose of the materialists. They’ll be happy to let you keep talking as long as you want. Upright BiPed
Yes but then you take what you’ve learned from the past and apply it to a situation/excavation/experiment which you don’t know what the outcome will be.
Sure you can and in certain cases this is practical and informative and in certain cases it is not. Your attempt here is to try and define science in such a way to make ID outside science. This tactic has been going on for years but it is slowly failing. ID is valuable for science as it brings a much better perspective to understanding nature. bill cole
Querius at 602, That's not true. Period. • The Church “proclaims that by the light of reason the human intellect can readily and clearly discern purpose and design in the natural world, including the world of living things.” • “Any system of thought that denies or seeks to explain away the overwhelming evidence for design in biology is ideology, not science.” • Quoting the Catechism : “Human intelligence is surely already capable of finding a response to the question of origins. The existence of God the Creator can be known with certainty through his works, by the light of human reason . . . . We believe that God created the world according to his wisdom. It is not the product of any necessity whatever, nor of blind fate or chance.” Cardinal Christof Schönborn relatd
You can predict the unlikelihood statistically? By the way, Dr Behe has been criticised for his use of probabilities in his work. So, do you understand the mathematics enough to decide who is right? The Lenski experiment was just one test. You cannot say that just because one test did not come up with an improbable event that it would never happen. That’s just non-sensical.
The Lenski experiment showed no sign that a new functional gene sequence could be formed by random mutation and natural selection. This can be predicted from population genetics mathematics. (Behe/Lynch) The claim is not that it would never happen the claim is it is unlikely. Regarding the Behe argument it really does not matter whether Behe or Lynch is right. Lynch does however underestimate the prevalence of deleterious mutations if you take all organisms into account. Both results make the evidence we are observing in vertebrates highly unlikely that random mutation and natural selection is the cause of the different protein families in different species. bill cole
Bill Cole: Science is about inductive/deductive reasoning and using evidence to determine the cause of the effect you are observing. Certainly evidence is important. Which is why I'm asking for a evidentiary test. You limit science if you only want to make predictions from a predictive model. This is mostly unique to matter as it has predictable properties at the macro level. This would remove aspects of quantum mechanics from science. I don't understand. Are you saying that science can be done without making predictions? What have you got without that? Just intellectual speculation? The historical sciences are not generally about prediction. This is where you observe evidence of something that happened in the past and infer the cause such as the Big Bang theory. Yes but then you take what you've learned from the past and apply it to a situation/excavation/experiment which you don't know what the outcome will be. I think you need to actually participate in some real scientific work. Just saying it's all supposition and logic is denying a whole bunch of physical data which supports some conclusions. JVL
Relatd @589,
ID predicts that everything is designed. Every living thing.
No, ID presumes that unknown biological features/structures are designed. This is a pragmatic, not a theological position. In contrast, Darwinism presumes that any unknown biological feature/structure is junk, proving evolution. This is an ideological, not a scientific position. -Q Querius
Fred Hickson spamming Querius @534, 535, 536, If you read my posts before you replied to them, you’d know the answers. ID is the presumption of design when encountering unknown biological features or structures. Here are your answers:
The GULOP gene is non-functional in humans and other primates.
ID answer: Presuming that the GULOP gene still has some unknown function beyond synthesizing ascorbic acid, can we devise a test to determine whether is does have a function under some conditions? Darwinian answer: The GULOP gene is genetic junk left over from evolution.
Endogenous retroviruses
ID answer: Edogenous retroviruses insert themselves into the human genome. Are they all truly retroviruses and do they now have a genetic function in the human DNA? Darwinian answer: Edogenous retroviruses are genetic junk left over from infection.
Mobile genetic elements
ID answer: Presuming design, what important function do transposable elements have in various genomes? Darwinian answer: Transposable elements are genetic junk left over from evolution. But you didn’t read my posts, so you’re left clueless about what ID represents. And you still owe me an apology for your hyperskepicism even after I provided a link to the website of a research cell biologist who confirmed my observations regarding hydra. I’m not holding my breath. -Q Querius
The question is though: if you can’t predict what will happen is that science? If we just keep saying: well, this might happen or this other thing might happen is that science? What do you think science is?
Science is about inductive/deductive reasoning and using evidence to determine the cause of the effect you are observing. See the scientific method. You limit science if you only want to make predictions from a predictive model. This is mostly unique to matter as it has predictable properties at the macro level. This would remove aspects of quantum mechanics from science. The historical sciences are not generally about prediction. This is where you observe evidence of something that happened in the past and infer the cause such as the Big Bang theory. bill cole
Relatd: I hope the following is helpful. You do realise that that is just a link to a podcast (from 2017) in which the testability of ID is discussed. I might find the time to listen to it. But it would be better if you listened to it and presented the arguments made. JVL
JVL at 596, I hope the following is helpful. https://evolutionnews.org/2017/08/yes-intelligent-design-is-testable-science-a-resource-roundup/ relatd
Bill Cole: Here is an ID paper that makes a testable prediction. I will look at the paper. I notice from a quick skim that it has a section called Predictions. What you also need to understand is that Science is not limited to only making testable predictions. The question is though: if you can't predict what will happen is that science? If we just keep saying: well, this might happen or this other thing might happen is that science? What do you think science is? We can predict the unlikelihood statistically. If you would read the Behe paper and really comprehend it you would see how difficult it is too form a new protein binding site in a population let alone a protein complex. The Lenski experiment validated this as billions of mutations occurred but only a few became fixed in the population over 60000 generations or the equivalent of 1.2 million primate years. You can predict the unlikelihood statistically? By the way, Dr Behe has been criticised for his use of probabilities in his work. So, do you understand the mathematics enough to decide who is right? The Lenski experiment was just one test. You cannot say that just because one test did not come up with an improbable event that it would never happen. That's just non-sensical. JVL
Relatd: What are you talking about? What I am talking about is that those molecular switches are too specialized and simultaneously too complex to be there by chance. To function as they do by chance. I hope that’s clear. There's a difference between observing something that has already occurred and interpreting it and predicting something will happen under specified conditions. Look, I understand you think that some biological structures are too complex to have evolved via unguided processes. I'm not arguing against that. What I am asking is: Is there a testable ID prediction that says: given a certain life form in a certain situation then a certain thing will occur. And, if we put that life form in that situation can we test to see if that outcome occurs? That's the question. JVL
Can that be set up and tested? Can you create a situation where that would happen? Or, would not happen? There is a problem predicting that something wouldn’t happen don’t you think?
We can predict the unlikelihood statistically. If you would read the Behe paper and really comprehend it you would see how difficult it is too form a new protein binding site in a population let alone a protein complex. The Lenski experiment validated this as billions of mutations occurred but only a few became fixed in the population over 60000 generations or the equivalent of 1.2 million primate years. bill cole
JVL
Clearly you agree with the basic precepts of ID, that’s fine. I’m not asking you about why you think that way. I’m asking if you can give me a testable prediction of ID that we can test. There’s no shame in saying no. It doesn’t change your view or belief. It’s just being honest.
Here is an ID paper that makes a testable prediction. What you also need to understand is that Science is not limited to only making testable predictions. https://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2018.3/BIO-C.2018.3 bill cole
Bill Cole: A possible experimental prediction of ID would be that a unique irreducibly complex functional system with several well matched parts would not form from random mutation and become fixed in a population by natural selection through repeated reproduction. Can that be set up and tested? Can you create a situation where that would happen? Or, would not happen? There is a problem predicting that something wouldn't happen don't you think? JVL
JVL at 590, "before the effect is discovered"? ??????????????????? What are you talking about? What I am talking about is that those molecular switches are too specialized and simultaneously too complex to be there by chance. To function as they do by chance. I hope that's clear. relatd
Can you propose an experiment or test with a particular life form in a particular situation in which a change predicted by ID is observed? Yes or no?
A possible experimental prediction of ID would be that a unique irreducibly complex functional system with several well matched parts would not form from random mutation and become fixed in a population by natural selection through repeated reproduction. So far this prediction has held up as the Lenski experiment showed as no unique single enzyme sequence was formed and fixed in the population. Have you read Mike Behe and David Snoke's paper that Michael Lynch critiqued? bill cole
The researchers pointed out that some switches were not just on and off. That they stayed on until, for example, a certain amount of something was let into the cell. This means that the switch had some limiting mechanism so that the cell would not get too much of something. They also surmised that if a switch got stuck in the on position too long, that it could result in disease and/or harm the cell. That is what ID predicts. ID predicts that some molecular 'switches' are affected by environmental chemical substances? Is that what you mean? Do you know where that prediction was made? Can you suggest another ID prediction that we can test before the effect is discovered? JVL
ID predicts that everything is designed. Every living thing. That means that scientists can dump the Darwin baggage, conduct experiments and those experiments will go in one direction and one direction only: More and more complexity turns 'climbing Mount Improbable' into walking to Mars. It can't be any Darwinian explanation. As evidence of increasing complexity increases, the odds of it happening by chance - by accident - drops by orders of magnitude. I read the highly technical journals. In an article about molecular switches involved in regulating cell functions, it boiled down to: 'We've identified what a few switches do. Some may or might be involved with doing this. Others may or might be involved in doing that.' The researchers pointed out that some switches were not just on and off. That they stayed on until, for example, a certain amount of something was let into the cell. This means that the switch had some limiting mechanism so that the cell would not get too much of something. They also surmised that if a switch got stuck in the on position too long, that it could result in disease and/or harm the cell. That is what ID predicts. relatd
Relatd: ID means you are not the result of some rock hitting the earth. Your ancestor did not crawl out of the ocean, and every living thing around you is designed. The moment you realize that is the moment you realize the true – and I mean that literally – value of life, and that you are here for a reason. As opposed to being some cosmic accident. I am not discussing or disputing that with my question. My question has to do with whether or not ID is science and makes testable predictions. I shall restate my question and hope you address it directly: If ID is a science and has predictive power and influences how life was and is developing then: Can you propose an experiment or test with a particular life form in a particular situation in which a change predicted by ID is observed? Yes or no? Clearly you agree with the basic precepts of ID, that's fine. I'm not asking you about why you think that way. I'm asking if you can give me a testable prediction of ID that we can test. There's no shame in saying no. It doesn't change your view or belief. It's just being honest. JVL
JVL at 582, Wake up. I mean it. Wake up. ID means you are not the result of some rock hitting the earth. Your ancestor did not crawl out of the ocean, and every living thing around you is designed. The moment you realize that is the moment you realize the true - and I mean that literally - value of life, and that you are here for a reason. As opposed to being some cosmic accident. relatd
Reasoning(including bad reasoning) is evidence for ID. Lieutenant Commander Data
. Fred, if you were serious you wouldn’t have said that a encoded signal from space wasn’t an inference to a previously unknown intelligence. You only said that to avoid the question being asked. If you were serious, you would have described how a dynamic RNA replicator specifies proteins. You don’t even attempt it. Again, you avoid the question. Upright BiPed
I'm at least as serious as you Jerry. And abuse? I challenge you or anyone to find one personally abusive statement made by Fred Hickson. Fred Hickson
I believe we both understand what’s really important to you Fred.
Fred is on record here as not serious about whatever he says. He is only here to abuse others or so he says. So why anyone answers him is a mystery. jerry
Silver Asiatic: ID is either true or false. ID predicts that it is true. What? Seriously? This is crazy. You think ID is science. You think it describes some . . . thing or being that influences the development of life on Earth. Do you think you can predict the outcome of an experiment or test on a life form in a particular (chosen by you) scenario? if 'yes' then just tell me the prediction and the scenario. If 'no' then tell my why ID has no predictive power. Simple. JVL
Asauber: I don’t care what you assume. You’re not a serious commenter. You’ve already done such with me (and others). I’m just playing the game. I'll assume, then, that your answer to my question is 'no' and that you're embarrassed to admit that. Thanks!! JVL
JVL
If ID is a science ...
ID is a proposal within modern science. As for prediction: ID is either true or false. ID predicts that it is true. The evidence is there and the proposal is offered. You can falsify it or not, but eventually you'll have to make some decision. Silver Asiatic
"What would you assume if you asked me a straight-forward, reasonable question and I refused to answer it?" JVL, I don't care what you assume. You're not a serious commenter. You've already done such with me (and others). I'm just playing the game. Andrew asauber
Asauber: It means I don’t normally take questions from known trolls. Uh huh. I suspect you can't answer my question 'yes' and you don't want to admit you can't. Otherwise, why wouldn't you say 'yes' and give an example? It doesn't cost you anything. It would make you look good. But if your answer is really 'no' then it makes you look rather ignorant and reliant on faith instead of science. What would you assume if you asked me a straight-forward, reasonable question and I refused to answer it? Should I make the same assumption about you? JVL
ET: We have said what ID predicts. Did ID predict Nylonase? Can you give me an example of something that hasn't happened yet that ID predicts that we could potentially test to see if the prediction came out to be true? They are whatever they need to be. That's a non-answer. They are stored by being inside the cell, which is an information storage device. How are they stored? With what molecules? Show us some of the stored information. And they are triggered by sensors, just as computers and other technologies use. What sensors? Show us one. They influence mutations by causing them to happen when they are needed. How do they cause them to happen? You are saying that all this is science and it influences the development of life (without being able to actually demonstrate how) so, it's reasonable to ask: Can you propose an experiment or test with a particular life form in a particular situation in which a change predicted by your inbuilt mechanism is observed? Yes or no? James Shapiro wrote a book dedicated to it, JVL. Perhaps you should stop being so willfully ignorant. If you understood his book then you should be able to answer my questions. How about we just consider the idea that mutations can be caused to happen upon need. How is that mechanically or chemically done? Not only, how do you force a mutation to happen but how do you force the right ones to happen? JVL
"I guess that means you can’t even answer my question yes or no." JVL, It means I don't normally take questions from known trolls. Andrew asauber
Asauber: But at this point you are a troll throwing rocks at passersby. I guess that means you can't even answer my question yes or no. JVL
JVL:
what are these inbuilt responses? How are they stored in the cell? How are they triggered by environmental cues? How do they influence mutations?
They are whatever they need to be. They are stored by being inside the cell, which is an information storage device. And they are triggered by sensors, just as computers and other technologies use. They influence mutations by causing them to happen when they are needed. James Shapiro wrote a book dedicated to it, JVL. Perhaps you should stop being so willfully ignorant. ET
Sorry JVL, But at this point you are a troll throwing rocks at passersby. Andrew asauber
ID is about detecting and studying design in nature. And unguided evolution can’t answer anything. JVL:
So, does that mean that ID lacks predictive power?
We have said what ID predicts. Nylonase is a great example of evolution via built-in responses to environmental cues.
Was it predicted by ID?
Only ID posits built-in responses to environmental cues, duh. ET
JVL:
So, absence of evidence is evidence of absence?
Science demands that claims have evidentiary support. So, a lack of evidence means the claim is not a scientific claim.
And that’s accepting your view of what is evidence which is clearly not the same view as held by an incredibly vast majority of working scientists.
Why haven't they published, then? Why is peer-review devoid of evidentiary support for evolution by means of blind and mindless processes?
It was your comment about how science should be testable which started me asking my question in the first place.
And that has been answered. So, now you have to stomp your feet like a petulant child. However, I have answered your asinine and irrelevant question. JVL’s question doesn’t have anything to do with ID. However, nylonase is a perfect example of evolution via built-in responses to environmental cues. Any gene duplication event that also required a new binding site AND specific changes to the duplicate to provide different functionality, is also evidence for built-in responses to environmental cues. ET
"So, absence of evidence is evidence of absence?" JVL, Yes. The was no evidence I was on the moon yesterday or could even get there if I wanted to, so its reasonable to enter that into the I'm not the Man In The Moon case. Andrew asauber
ET: Based on the lac k of evidence, duh. So, absence of evidence is evidence of absence? Really? And that's accepting your view of what is evidence which is clearly not the same view as held by an incredibly vast majority of working scientists. JVL is a dishonest troll, who is also scientifically illiterate. It was your comment about how science should be testable which started me asking my question in the first place. I'll restate for you AGAIN, let's see if you can actually address it this time. If ID is a science and has predictive power and influences how life was and is developing then: Can you propose an experiment or test with a particular life form in a particular situation in which a change predicted by ID is observed? Yes or no? You can answer yes or no or you can explain why ID is not a science, does not have predictive power or does not influence the development of life on Earth. Your call but please do try and respond to my actual statement. ID is about detecting and studying design in nature. And unguided evolution can’t answer anything. So, does that mean that ID lacks predictive power? Does that mean that ID does not affect the development of life on Earth? Does that mean ID is not a science? Which part of my statement forces you to not be able to answer my question? If ID is a science and has predictive power and influences how life was and is developing then: Can you propose an experiment or test with a particular life form in a particular situation in which a change predicted by ID is observed? Yes or no? Nylonase is a great example of evolution via built-in responses to environmental cues. Was it predicted by ID? Can you propose another scenario which will bring about a change predicted by ID? Oh, before I forget: what are these inbuilt responses? How are they stored in the cell? How are they triggered by environmental cues? How do they influence mutations? If you can't demonstrate their existence at least then . . . JVL
LCD:If you can’t detect ID (that is everywhere around you) then what exactly do you use to think ,to post a question or to make a conclusion? You wear a hat telling us there are no hats. I don't think my question is unreasonable, I might very well ask the same of any science. AND, it has nothing to do with design detection. Clearly. Shall I restate it AGAIN in case you need reminding of what it is? If ID is a science and has predictive power and influences how life was and is developing then: Can you propose an experiment or test with a particular life form in a particular situation in which a change predicted by ID is observed? Yes or no? You can answer yes or no or you can explain why ID is not a science, does not have predictive power or does not influence the development of life on Earth. Your call but please do try and respond to my actual statement. JVL
Kairosfocus: The prediction is obvious and known to you, you just chose to set up and knock over a strawman instead. Since you're already convinced that complex specified information is present in DNA then predicting you'll keep finding it is like me predicting the sun will rise tomorrow 'cause that's what I've observed over many, many observations. And, since your design inference is contended I'm asking another question which HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT YOU KEEP SAYING. Let me state my question AGAIN: If ID is a science and has predictive power and influences how life was and is developing then: Can you propose an experiment or test with a particular life form in a particular situation in which a change predicted by ID is observed? Yes or no? You can answer yes or no or you can explain why ID is not a science, does not have predictive power or does not influence the development of life on Earth. Your call but please do try and respond to my actual statement. JVL
JVL's question doesn't have anything to do with ID. However, nylonase is a perfect example of evolution via built-in responses to environmental cues. Any gene duplication event that also required a new binding site AND specific changes to the duplicate to provide different functionality, is also evidence for built-in responses to environmental cues. ET
Querius: I provided a link that you didn’t read, falsifying your assertion and answering your question. ID predicts that “junk” DNA has a function. This was shown to be true as new functions are discovered and your presumed “junk” grows smaller and smaller. But that didn't answer my actual question. It cast aspersions on some else I said but that's another thing. Here is my question AGAIN: If ID is a science and has predictive power and influences how life was and is developing then: Can you propose an experiment or test with a particular life form in a particular situation in which a change predicted by ID is observed? Yes or no? Seems perfectly reasonable and requires no comment or judgement on any other theory or supposition. JVL
Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity. How do we know that? There isn't any evidence to support it and there isn't even any way to test the claim that naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity. ET
If unguided evolution is science and has predictive power, why can't anyone present these alleged predictions borne strictly from evolution by means of blind and mindless processes? For example, how can we test the claim that blind and mindless processes produced any bacterial flagellum? Answer- it cannot be done. Given starting populations of prokaryotes, there isn’t any naturalistic mechanism capable of producing eukaryotes! Endosymbiosis doesn’t help as a eukaryote is much more than a prokaryote with another prokaryote inside of it. ET
Nylonase is a great example of evolution via built-in responses to environmental cues. However, ID doesn't say anything about what JVL is asking. ID is about detecting and studying design in nature. And unguided evolution can't answer anything. So, JVL is just a hypocrite. ET
EDTA: You’ve been here how long now, and you are asking these things?? I don't think the following is unreasonable. If ID is a science and has predictive power and influences how life was and is developing then: Can you propose an experiment or test with a particular life form in a particular situation in which a change predicted by ID is observed? Yes or no? If you can't come up with such a scenario or test then just say no. Yes, alwaThis totally misunderstands the nature of predictive science, and is totally incorrect. You’re equivocating on the word “science”. You've set the bar higher than you think the other side can get over. Common debate tactic. What is unreasonable about my question? It's the same I would ask of any science. Wouldn't you? This totally misunderstands the nature of predictive science, and is totally incorrect. You’re equivocating on the word “science”. Really? So you think checking to see if gravitation waves (as predicted by Einstein's theories of relativity) was being unscientific? If a hypothesis claims that some force or . . . thing . . . influences something then it's fair to ask if you can demonstrate that influence is it not? JVL
Upright BiPed: I fixed your question for you. And, thereby, dodged mine. Let's see if you can answer mine first shall we? I'll restate it so you don't have to scroll back. If ID is a science and has predictive power and influences how life was and is developing then: Can you propose an experiment or test with a particular life form in a particular situation in which a change predicted by ID is observed? Yes or no? JVL
Vividbleau: What is your unguided evolutionary theory and what would contradict your unguided evolutionary theory? I have observed over the years that the unguided evolutionary theory is like the blob which swallows virtually every piece of evidence. For that reason personally I think unguided evolutionary theory is unfalsifiable. Let's see if you can answer my question first which I shall restate: If ID is a science and has predictive power and influences how life was and is developing then: Can you propose an experiment or test with a particular life form in a particular situation in which a change predicted by ID is observed? Yes or no? JVL
Bill Cole: We can predict that all organisms discovered or undiscovered will have a purposeful arrangement of parts. The experiment extracting and observing the sequence data of the selected organisms. If you can show an organism that does not operate with purposely arranged DNA and proteins you can falsify this hypothesis. That is not an experiment, that's just observation and interpretation. AND it's not answering my question which I shall restate AGAIN. If ID is a science and has predictive power and influences how life was and is developing then: Can you propose an experiment or test with a particular life form in a particular situation in which a change predicted by ID is observed? Yes or no? Have you read the Behe paper that is critiqued by Michael Lynch. Do you claim to understand the mathematics? I would be happy to discuss this with you. Can you prove ET wrong and show you have some substance behind your rhetoric? ? Let's see if you can actually answer my question first. JVL
ET you take it way too seriously. You can't make trolls act like responsible persons(you get upset because you think that you can change trolls). Lieutenant Commander Data
ERVs- you have to be desperate to think that ERVs would stay intact enough to be used as genetic markers over millions of years of genetic change. But tat is moot as unguided evolution/ evolution by means of blind and mindless processes can't account for the existence of metazoans. Given starting populations of prokaryotes, there isn't any naturalistic mechanism capable of producing eukaryotes! Endosymbiosis doesn't help as a eukaryote is much more than a prokaryote with another prokaryote inside of it. ET
Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity. JVL:
Based on what exactly?
Based on the lac k of evidence, duh. And not one of JVL's unguided evolutionary predictions have anything to do with unguided evolution! JVL is deluded and dishonest. “Waiting for TWO Mutations” was written because there isn’t any actual experimental evidence for unguided evolution.
Anyone who has read the actual paper knows that is not correct.
The whole reason for the paper is because there isn't any experimental evidence. You can't demonstrate otherwise. You are pathetic. JVL is a dishonest troll, who is also scientifically illiterate. ET
Fred Hickson:
Lenski’s LTEE is demonstrating the interaction between organism and environment in real time.
The LTEE has demonstrated the severe limits of evolutionary processes. You are totally clueless. There haven't been any new proteins formed in the LTEE. There haven't been any new protein complexes formed, either. So, that real time experiment pretty much squashes any claims of universal common descent. ET
Fred Hickson:
I still think that RNA world neatly sidesteps the issue of both the evolution of a genetic code and cellular protein synthesis.
What RNA world? There isn't any evidence for one. And there isn't any evidence that any RNA world can sidestep the evolution of the genetic code or cellular protein synthesis. All Fred has is willful ignorance and a fantasy. ET
Fred Hickson:
ID isn’t science, remember.
You don't know what science entails. Intelligent Design offers the only scientific explanation for our existence. You and yours don't have any scientific explanation for our existence. You are clueless and dishonest, at best. ET
LCD, at this point JVL is bluffing in defiance of manifest facts and correction. He reduces his credibility to that of too many objectors. I suspect, though, we are not his audience, he likely will carry back his claim to some echo chamber or other. KF kairosfocus
FH, first, that I use a particular abbreviation is irrelevant to the merits on the matter, which are clear. However, FYI, here is my context, starting with Dembski defining CSI:
CONCEPT: NFL, p. 148:“The great myth of contemporary evolutionary biology is that the information needed to explain complex biological structures can be purchased without intelligence. My aim throughout this book is to dispel that myth . . . . Eigen and his colleagues must have something else in mind besides information simpliciter when they describe the origin of information as the central problem of biology. I submit that what they have in mind is specified complexity [cf. p 144 as cited below], or what equivalently we have been calling in this Chapter Complex Specified information or CSI . . . . Biological specification always refers to function. An organism is a functional system comprising many functional subsystems [--> see how I am emphasising a point Dembski makes]. . . . In virtue of their function [a living organism's subsystems] embody patterns that are objectively given and can be identified independently of the systems that embody them. Hence these systems are specified in the sense required by the complexity-specificity criterion . . . the specification can be cashed out in any number of ways
[through observing the requisites of functional organisation within the cell, or in organs and tissues or at the level of the organism as a whole. Dembski cites: Wouters, p. 148: "globally in terms of the viability of whole organisms," Behe, p. 148: "minimal function of biochemical systems," Dawkins, pp. 148 - 9: "Complicated things have some quality, specifiable in advance, that is highly unlikely to have been acquired by ran-| dom chance alone. In the case of living things, the quality that is specified in advance is . . . the ability to propagate genes in reproduction." On p. 149, he roughly cites Orgel's famous remark on specified complexity from 1973, which exactly cited reads: " In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . ." And, p. 149, he highlights Paul Davis in The Fifth Miracle: "Living organisms are mysterious not for their complexity per se, but for their tightly specified complexity."] . . .”
DEFINITION: p. 144: [Specified complexity can be more formally defined:] “. . . since a universal probability bound of 1 [chance] in 10^150 corresponds to a universal complexity bound of 500 bits of information, [the cluster] (T, E) constitutes CSI because T [effectively the target hot zone in the field of possibilities] subsumes E [effectively the observed event from that field], T is detachable from E, and and T measures at least 500 bits of information . . . ”
Further to this, note from much earlier than Dembski, where Thaxton et al, having also cited Leslie Orgel 1973, cite Wicken 1979:
‘Organized’ systems are to be carefully distinguished from ‘ordered’ systems. Neither kind of system is ‘random,’ but whereas ordered systems are generated according to simple algorithms [[i.e. “simple” force laws acting on objects starting from arbitrary and common- place initial conditions] and therefore lack complexity, organized systems must be assembled element by element according to an [originally . . . ] external ‘wiring diagram’ with a high information content . . . Organization, then, is functional complexity and carries information. It is non-random by design or by selection, rather than by the a priori necessity of crystallographic ‘order.’ [“The Generation of Complexity in Evolution: A Thermodynamic and Information-Theoretical Discussion,” Journal of Theoretical Biology, 77 (April 1979): p. 353, of pp. 349-65. (Emphases and notes added. Nb: “originally” is added to highlight that for self-replicating systems, the blue print can be built-in.)]
The roots of an emphasis on function, specificity due to configuration to attain function, complexity [beyond 500 - 1,000 bits], organisation as implicitly informational and information whether implicit or explicit, are clear and well warranted. I simply abbreviate as henceforth I will use OoBPs too. As for the difference from Orgel, you will note that I am using Wicken. Where emphasis on strings of digits is WLOG as AutoCAD etc show that organised entities can be reduced to bit strings in a description language. While I understand Dembski's reference to target zones in large config spaces, an allusion to statistical thermodynamics often missed by his detractors, I find it convenient to use a search space threshold and atomic resources of sol system and the observed cosmos to draw out infeadibility of blind needle in haystacks searches, bearing in mind that well fitted properly organised, aligned and coupled components to achieve function manifest island of function in a sea of nonfunctional patterns. Thought exercise, put disassembled parts of a 6500 reel in a bait bucket and shake. Will they ever form a reel or the like? Predictably, no. Thus, FSCO/I. KF kairosfocus
JVL Incredibly enough no one of the ID proponents here can provide a simple, replicable, observer independent test along the following lines: if you put this or that life form in this or that situation you WILL observe the following result as predicted by ID but NOT by unguided evolutionary theory.
:)) JVL has searched his hat everywhere in the house . He didn't find it because was on his head all the time. If you can't detect ID (that is everywhere around you) then what exactly do you use to think ,to post a question or to make a conclusion? You wear a hat telling us there are no hats. Lieutenant Commander Data
. I believe we both understand what’s really important to you Fred. Upright BiPed
An aaRS protein is generally hundreds of amino acids in length (lysine tRNA synthetase, length = 505 amino acids in e.coli; valine tRNA synthetase, length = 951 amino acids in e.coli). They each perform a well controlled double-recognition of a particular tRNA and a particular amino acid, which they then bind together. Additionally, they charge the amino acid with energy, which is required to drive it through the next steps in translation. They discriminate and remove amino acids that have become attached to the wrong tRNA.
That's fine as a description of what we observe currently. So? Fred Hickson
If you cannot bring yourself to acknowledge the documented history of science and experiment, then what the point of a debate?
I'll answer any question you put to me (as long as I understand it - you do have a tendency to obscure phrasing). There are a few of mine you have ignored. If you want a debate in any formal sense, I don't think the columns of Uncommon Descent is the best venue, nor am I any kind of worthy opponent. Besides, I don't think your claims have survived the criticisms of 2012, which is why it would be good to get a statement of your semiotic hypothesis as the definitive version. Where have I disputed a documented scientific historical fact? ID isn't science, remember. Fred Hickson
Upright Biped:
Perhaps your time could be better spent.
Undoubtedly. I would suggest, though, and quite seriously, that also applies to you. Your semiotic hypothesis remains ignored by the mainstream. Remember it with fondness. Hold an anniversary celebration... But I think it is time to let go. ________________________________________________________________ But if you want to carry on with me, I'm retired and the heat is preventing me from doing much venturing outside, so no worries about my time wasted. How about just restating your semiotic hypothesis as you have refined it? Can't involve you in much more than a copy and paste and a bit of editing? Fred Hickson
The Wikipedia entry I cited above covers the questions about Dembski's CSI fairly well. But to be fair to ID, here's Winston Ewert on CSI defending it against critiques from Felsenstein and English:
Essentially, Felsenstein presents specified complexity as circular. It is true that specified complexity does not in any way help establish that the probability of complex life is low under natural selection. You must have another way of showing that, for example Michael Behe’s irreducible complexity, Doug Axe’s work on proteins, or Stephen Meyer’s work on the Cambrian explosion.
So that takes us back to arguing the facts. Is a bacterial flagellum really irreducibly complex? Are Axe's experiments really accurately testing models? Does Meyer fairly assess what we know about the Cambrian period? Fred Hickson
. Here is something you might want to think about. An aaRS protein is generally hundreds of amino acids in length (lysine tRNA synthetase, length = 505 amino acids in e.coli; valine tRNA synthetase, length = 951 amino acids in e.coli). They each perform a well controlled double-recognition of a particular tRNA and a particular amino acid, which they then bind together. Additionally, they charge the amino acid with energy, which is required to drive it through the next steps in translation. They discriminate and remove amino acids that have become attached to the wrong tRNA. And all of this is done to serve an absolutely critical function — they establish the symbol in the gene system. Without the symbol, there is no encoded memory. Without the symbol, there are no genes to be inherited or evolve through lawful natural processes. Without the symbol, there is nothing to specify how to build an aaRS. . . . Fred: The job of aaRSs did not exist in RNA world … There is no encoding … There needs to be no specification … Specification is not required … That’s the point. Instead of trying to invent little things to nibble on at the periphery of the conversation, perhaps you should try to do something about your position. In fact, have you actually done anything yet? You’ve made a few assertions. You launched the ridiculous “One”. And you’ve basically told Carl Sagan to go pound sand, but have you actually done anything about your claims? Perhaps your time could be better spent. EDIT: as for me, you lost me with your disingenuous (and truly nonsensical) answer to question #1. If you cannot bring yourself to acknowledge the documented and uncontroversial history of science and experiment, then what is the point of a debate? There is none. Upright BiPed
. Fred, I never said that you were “stalking” me; I said that you have “been trying to call me out for weeks here.” June 3 Upright Biped Upright Biped Upright Biped June 4 Upright Biped Upright Biped Upright Biped June 6 Upright Biped Upright Biped Upright Biped June 8 Here Upright Biped In fact, I believed you’ve mentioned me by name in something like 15 comments prior to this conversation on this thread. I believe saying that you’ve been trying to “call me out” is a fair assessment. Upright BiPed
@ KF You keep using the acronym FSCO/I. Thi appears to be completely idiosyncratic to you. the nearest concept I can find is specified complexity first coined by Leslie Orgel in 1973, subsequently picked up by Bill Dembski and pretty much ignored by the mainstream since.
In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity.[9]
If your FSCO/I differs from Orgel, can you tell us how? If it doesn't, why not use the same descriptive? Fred Hickson
JVL: Strawman set up and knocked over in willful dismissal of facts on the table:
I take it that you cannot provide an objective, repeatable, observer independent test or experiment that gives an outcome predicted by ID but not by unguided evolution. Why didn’t you just say so?
1: As you know, the past of origins of life and body plans is unique and non repeatable, what is recognisable would be patterns that repeat. 2: One of these patterns is massive functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information, FSCO/I beyond 500 - 1,000 bits. It is needed for the first cell, it is needed for body plans, it is needed for our own origin. 3: On trillions of direct observation, without any exceptions we know FSCO/I comes about by design. Unsurprising as spaces of possibilities for 500 - 1,000 bits run like 3.27 * 10^150 to 1.07*10^301 possibilities, swamping blind search -- chance and necessity -- of the sol system or observed cosmos. 4: Consequently, the first problem is to get to a living cell from a Darwin pond or the like and there is no well substantiated blind forces model that is backed by observed capability. As well you know. 5: Similarly, origin of body plans runs into much the same difficulty to come up with dozens of genomes of 10 - 100+ million bases. 6: The prediction is obvious and known to you, you just chose to set up and knock over a strawman instead. Namely, there will be no observation that FSCO/I can and does come about by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity. Whether at OoL [try, OoL experiments] or origin of body plans or simple random document generation. 7: That's similar to the thermodynamics laws in the no perpetuum mobile form. And indeed a breaking of the no FSCO/I by blind forces theme would break the second law's credibility. 8: All of this is a distraction, from the clear want of a viable, observed mechanism to drive blind force OoL or OoBPs. The dominant ideology should never have been established in the first instance, it stands by imposition not by having causal forces known to be capable of the phenomena per observation. KF kairosfocus
Back at comment 300, Fred wrote:
300 Fred HicksonJune 8, 2022 at 4:17 pm RNA catalyst and replicator drives coach and horses through UB’s “semiotic hypothesis”.
Hoping Upright Biped has time to respond. I've also asked has UB refined his semiotic hypothesis (is that the right way to refer to it) and does he have a text that he considers definitive that sets it out? I still think that RNA world neatly sidesteps the issue of both the evolution of a genetic code and cellular protein synthesis. No rush, wenever you have time. Fred Hickson
Upright Biped asks JVL
Can you provide an objective, repeatable, observer independent test or experiment that shows that unguided forces are behind the origin of life on earth?
First an aside. UP mentioned something about Fred stalking him. The way UP swoops on JVL looks more like stalking than anything Fred has done here. JVL, I believe, is a layman (like UB and Fred) though with expertise in math. Layman's opinions count for little in the world of science so I think it would be better for discussants here to stick to the facts that they can support. Now to answer Upright Biped. Nope. It would I think be impossible to devise a scientific experiment that tested the existence of any non-physical force. I think force is inappropriate as a use of the word in UBs question, BTW. Also guided. What could be guiding? The niche environment guides. Lenski's LTEE is demonstrating the interaction between organism and environment in real time. Fred Hickson
JVL: If [forensic investigation] is science then it should have predictive power. Do you deny that forensic investigations qualify as science? Abductive inference (retroduction) is about finding the best explanation for a past event or related events, as when detectives assemble evidence at a crime scene and create a theory to explain the events. abductive theories warrant no predictive power for future events. Although such theories are falsifiable. ID is an abductive approach to the evidence. (Moreover, ID is not creationism, nor is it anti-evolution in all respects, as far as I can tell. There may be some YECs who disagree.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abductive_reasoning Paxx Paxx
Or let's look at the general case of mobile genetic elements, Querius. ID researchers could be having a field day with explanations. Which are? Fred Hickson
Endogenous retroviruses, Querius? The ID explanation is? Fred Hickson
The GULOP gene is non-functional in humans and other primates. Junk DNA in other words, though some call it a pseudogene. @ Querius And the ID explanation is? Fred Hickson
JVL @498,
Aside from you not answering my base question . . .
Yes, I did. In 480, you stated
Unguided evolution would predict that there would be ‘junk’ in many genomes which is the case.
I provided a link that you didn't read, falsifying your assertion and answering your question. ID predicts that "junk" DNA has a function. This was shown to be true as new functions are discovered and your presumed "junk" grows smaller and smaller. Here's the link again: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/04/180411131659.htm Since you won't read it, the title is "Scientists discover a role for 'junk' DNA." Your assertion just blew up in your face again. But as Monty Python's black knight would say, "'Twas but a scratch." -Q Querius
Kairosfocus @487,
AS & Q though there is a dictionary meaning of presumption that fits, it tends to suggest blind a priori, I would avoid the word. KF
Noted. But while it’s empirically and inductively justified, a presumption of design is indeed blind in every new situation as is the case with any other presumption. Caller: My computer screen is black. Technician: Is your monitor plugged in and turned on? Caller: Yes, and the little light on it is green. Technician: can you connect your monitor to a different computer? Caller: Just a minute . . . yes, the monitor is still black. Technician: Wait . . . are either of your computers turned on? Caller: No. Why would that make any difference? My point is that the presumption one chooses has a significant impact on how fast one reaches the correct or a pragmatically superior conclusion. On what basis does one make the choice? Ok, let's take a more practical example. Would you presume a newly discovered virus is natural or engineered? This can involve Bayesian inferences, right? -Q Querius
JVL @ 516, You've been here how long now, and you are asking these things?? >if you put this or that life form in this or that situation you WILL observe the following result as predicted by ID but NOT by unguided evolutionary theory. Even evolutionary biology is an observational science, not a predictive science. Evolutionists cannot tell us precisely what the next mutation to take hold in an arbitrary wild species will be. >You all keep trying to tell my why you think your design inference is correct. But I’m not asking that. So you now agree? >If ID is science then it should have predictive power. Only certain branches of science (should) claim predictive power. Theoretial physics for one. Many are purely or nearly purely observational. >You should be able to provide an objective, repeatable, observer independent test... Yes, always set the bar higher than you think the other side can get over. Common debate tactic. >When you keep telling me that those cells sure do look complicated and we can’t figure out how unguided processes could have done it IS NOT providing a test or experiment. We are ruling out one inference, which points strongly to a different inference. When we are dealing with questions that could only be answered by a look back into the inaccessible past, that's about all one can do sometimes. >If ID is science then it should have predictive power. This totally misunderstands the nature of predictive science, and is totally incorrect. You're equivocating on the word "science". EDTA
. JVL,
JVL: you know what it’s like when you publicly commit to something which is later shown to be erroneous. It’s hard to admit you made a mistake.
You use flawed reasoning to avoid the universal evidence in support of ID at the origin of life, even though you’ve also been forced to recognize that same evidence as perfectly valid and true (not to mention, a prediction made at a science symposium, later confirmed by experimental result). You have reasoned that because the proponents of an unguided origin of life do not believe in a guided origin of life, then the evidence in support of a guided origin is invalidated. JVL: “I pointed out that the semiotic community does not agree with design” In the face of absolutely zero evidence confirming an unguided OoL, this is actually the centerpiece of your reasoning — and it is as anti-science and anti-intellectual as it can possibly be. Even so, when confronted with this fallacy against science and reason, you simply repeat the fallacy — over and over and over again. Every time you defend your reasoning, you repeat this same fallacy. Seriously, why are you so afraid of addressing the flaws in your logic? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - JVL at 512
Can you provide an objective, repeatable, observer independent test or experiment that shows that unguided forces are behind the origin of life on earth?
I fixed your question for you. Now you can answer the same question you demand others answer. If you get around to admitting that you have no such test yourself, then the purely rhetorical nature of your demands will become evident for all to see. Unfortunately, there is seemingly no level of intellectual embarrassment that will alter your actions. Upright BiPed
JVL “that is contrary to that made my unguided evolutionary theory” What is your unguided evolutionary theory and what would contradict your unguided evolutionary theory? I have observed over the years that the unguided evolutionary theory is like the blob which swallows virtually every piece of evidence. For that reason personally I think unguided evolutionary theory is unfalsifiable. Vivid vividbleau
. Well, that’s what his true believers think anyway. Most of whom do not understand the mathematics he (mis)uses. Which has been pointed out to him but you know what it’s like when you publicly commit to something which is later shown to be erroneous. It’s hard to admit you made a mistake. Especially when the Discovery Institute is paying for your book.
Have you read the Behe paper that is critiqued by Michael Lynch. Do you claim to understand the mathematics? I would be happy to discuss this with you. Can you prove ET wrong and show you have some substance behind your rhetoric? :-) bill cole
FH at 497, Evolution explains nothing and everything. ID looks at living things and can clearly locate the design aspects. relatd
Bill Cole: Science is about showing your hypothesis is sound. If someone can show it is unlikely your hypothesis is falsified. Evolution by mutation natural selection as a complete explanation for the diversity of life has been falsified by Mike Behe. Well, that's what his true believers think anyway. Most of whom do not understand the mathematics he (mis)uses. Which has been pointed out to him but you know what it's like when you publicly commit to something which is later shown to be erroneous. It's hard to admit you made a mistake. Especially when the Discovery Institute is paying for your book. So, you cannot provide me with an objective, repeatable, observer independent test of a life form which will give a result supporting a prediction made by ID but contrary to one given by unguided evolution. Thanks for you time. I'd advise you in the future to try and actually read and respond to what people are asking you; you'll look less foolish that way. Your call. JVL
My question is reasonable if ID is a science which has predictive power. Show me an experiment which verifies ID’s predictive power.
I did. We can predict that all organisms discovered or undiscovered will have a purposeful arrangement of parts. The experiment extracting and observing the sequence data of the selected organisms. If you can show an organism that does not operate with purposely arranged DNA and proteins you can falsify this hypothesis. bill cole
ET: Intelligent Designs predicts the same basic things as archaeology and forensic science. Namely that when intelligent agencies act, they tend to leave traces of those actions behind. But you say more than that, you say it also has an effect on biological development across the biome. I'm asking you to provide me a test or experiment which establishes that based on a prediction made by ID. You can keep dancing it back and back and back. Eventually you'll run out of things that ID does if you can't provide an example which you can predict will be seen before it is seen. And he definitely can’t say what unguided evolution predicts. I've replied to this several times. ET either wants you to believe a lie or he can't remember what I have said or, what he really means is, that he disagrees with me. Disagreement is fine, lying and deceiving is not. “Waiting for TWO Mutations” was written because there isn’t any actual experimental evidence for unguided evolution. Anyone who has read the actual paper knows that is not correct. Again, is ET wanting you to believe a lie or is he just badly mistaken? There is no shame in representing your opponents arguments fairly and honestly. Lying about them is shameful. JVL
Based on what exactly? A complicated probabilistic argument? Which says, in the end, that it’s highly unlikely that unguided processes ‘did it’? That’s what Dr Behe has admitted, that he can’t show that unguided causes are not sufficient, only that they are highly unlikely. But then your whole argument falls to pieces.
Science is about showing your hypothesis is sound. If someone can show it is unlikely your hypothesis is falsified. Evolution by mutation natural selection as a complete explanation for the diversity of life has been falsified by Mike Behe. bill cole
Bill Cole: Take a bacterial cell and see if parts are purposely arranged. Take a yeast cell repeat. Take a plant cell repeat. Take a vertebrate cell repeat. Start with tissue and then move up to organs. All these parts are arranged for a purpose. The alternative is this is all a cosmic accident. I don’t think this is a conclusion reasonable people can arrive at. That is not an experiment or test which induces a change which is a prediction of ID but not of unguided evolution. I guess you just don't understand my question. Will see if he can start to argue logically or just ask gotcha questions. My question is reasonable if ID is a science which has predictive power. Show me an experiment which verifies ID's predictive power. JVL
Incredibly,JVL is a proven willfully ignorant troll.
Will see if he can start to argue logically or just ask gotcha questions. bill cole
ET: “Our ability to be confident of the design of the cilium or intracellular transport rests on the same principles to be confident of the design of anything: the ordering of separate components to achieve an identifiable function that depends sharply on the components.” I am not asking you why you think life was designed. I'm asking you to provide a test where you put a life form in a particular situation and the result is something predicted by ID but not by unguided evolution. I guess you just don't get it. Or you're just too much of a coward to admit you can't answer the question. Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity. Based on what exactly? A complicated probabilistic argument? Which says, in the end, that it's highly unlikely that unguided processes 'did it'? That's what Dr Behe has admitted, that he can't show that unguided causes are not sufficient, only that they are highly unlikely. But then your whole argument falls to pieces. So, can you provide a test of an actual life form or not? Can you lay out a situation where a life form will respond to a situation in a way predicted by ID by not by unguided processes? Yes or no? Yes or no? JVL
Intelligent Designs predicts the same basic things as archaeology and forensic science. Namely that when intelligent agencies act, they tend to leave traces of those actions behind. Complex specified information, irreducible complexity and specified complexity are such signs. But JVL is too dim to grasp that. And he definitely can't say what unguided evolution predicts. Then he ignores the fact that the paper "Waiting for TWO Mutations" was written because there isn't any actual experimental evidence for unguided evolution. ET
Can you provide an objective, repeatable, observer independent test or experiment that shows that there is a mind behind the development of life on earth? A test that tests a prediction of your assertion that there is a mind behind the process.
Take a bacterial cell and see if parts are purposely arranged. Take a yeast cell repeat. Take a plant cell repeat. Take a vertebrate cell repeat. Start with tissue and then move up to organs. All these parts are arranged for a purpose. The alternative is this is all a cosmic accident. I don't think this is a conclusion reasonable people can arrive at. This is also important for science as it is very different using intelligent design vs a cosmic accident as a working assumption to develop theory. . bill cole
Incredibly,JVL is a proven willfully ignorant troll. ET
Incredibly enough no one of the ID proponents here can provide a simple, replicable, observer independent test along the following lines: if you put this or that life form in this or that situation you WILL observe the following result as predicted by ID but NOT by unguided evolutionary theory. You all keep trying to tell my why you think your design inference is correct. But I'm not asking that. Some of you keep attacking unguided evolution but that's not the topic at hand. If ID is science then it should have predictive power. That predictive power should be testable. You should be able to provide an objective, repeatable, observer independent test of a prediction made by ID that is contrary to that made my unguided evolutionary theory. When you keep telling me that those cells sure do look complicated and we can't figure out how unguided processes could have done it IS NOT providing a test or experiment. That's just you continuing to assert your beliefs and opinions. And you know those are highly contested. I'm proposing a way past the old arguments and stalemates. Give us a test, one we can do for ourselves, one we can repeat, one that doesn't matter who runs the test, that supports a prediction of ID that is significantly different from what we'd expect if unguided evolutionary theory is true. If ID is science then it's reasonable to expect its proponents to be able to abide by such a reasonable request. If ID is science then it should have predictive power. ID should be able to say: you unguided people would probably expect so-and-so but if you follow my test you'll see that you get something different, something that follows a prediction made by ID. I await your replies. JVL
JVL:
That’s what Newton did. That’s what Einstein did. They proposed an explanation and then said: if my theory is correct you will see this and that instead of other things under certain conditions. Can you do the same with ID? Yes or no?
Yes, and I have. The test for Intelligent Design was to peer inside the black box that is a living cell. And if we see: 1) High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design. 2) Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity. 3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity. 4) Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems. and “Our ability to be confident of the design of the cilium or intracellular transport rests on the same principles to be confident of the design of anything: the ordering of separate components to achieve an identifiable function that depends sharply on the components.” ET
JVL:
What does ID predict that we can check and verify?
The test for Intelligent Design was to peer inside the black box that is a living cell. And if we see: 1) High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design. 2) Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity. 3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity. 4) Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems. and “Our ability to be confident of the design of the cilium or intracellular transport rests on the same principles to be confident of the design of anything: the ordering of separate components to achieve an identifiable function that depends sharply on the components.” Not my fault that you are too stupid to understand that. ET
JHolo:
Being insulted by angry people who haven’t gotten past the anal stage of development isn’t a “beating”.
You just described the minions of Peaceful Science ET
Bill Cole: ID proposes a mind as the mechanism that can account for the observation. The test or the mechanism is whether a mind can arrange parts. This is indeed very testable and predictable as we are communicating by arranged abstract symbols or parts. Can you provide an objective, repeatable, observer independent test or experiment that shows that there is a mind behind the development of life on earth? A test that tests a prediction of your assertion that there is a mind behind the process. We're not just talking about any old situation here; we're talking about the development of life on Earth. Let's stick with that shall we? JVL
ET: And if those feeble-minded pukes ever show up here, they will get the beating. Ooo, I'm scared now. What a great example of scientific argumentation and intelligent reasoning. Exactly what I have been telling you. But thanks for proving that you are a willfully ignorant coward. Can you give us an example of a repeatable, objective, observer independent test or experiment that supports a prediction made by ID that is in opposition to ones offered by unguided evolutionary theory. You say you understand science. You say you follow Newton's rules. Well, do what Newton did then: Come up with a hypothesis, provide an objective, observer independent situation or test that we can use to check a prediction of that hypothesis and let us try and repeat and scrutinise the result. If you can. If you're so good at science it should be easy for you to do that. The test for Intelligent Design was to peer inside the black box that is a living cell. And if we see: Make a prediction and provide a test that we can execute, repeatably. A test that is not just confirming your disputed assertions. A test which provides a result that is different than what unguided evolutionary theory proposes. You just trotting out the same old justifications is NOT the same thing as proposing the outcome of a particular situation or set of conditions and the reaction of a life form. You know that. But you just keep dancing really fast and hope we give up. Provide a repeatable, objective, observer independent (your criteria fails here because not every one agrees on your biased view) test or experiment which gives a result predicted by ID and runs counter to the prediction offered by unguided evolutionary theory. You just pointing at DNA (and some undetected, undefined extra programming) and saying: hey, that looks designed to me therefore I win is NOT the same thing. Newton got that. He knew he had to come up with some new mathematics that successfully modelled the situation he was trying to explain. Einstein's theories predicted phenomena that no one had even observed yet. And he did so correctly. What does ID predict that we can check and verify? Something objective, measurable, repeatable. Not just you saying it must be true. You have to do better than that. JVL
ET: And if those feeble-minded pukes ever show up here, they will get the beating.
Being insulted by angry people who haven’t gotten past the anal stage of development isn’t a “beating”. It is just sadly pathetic for the person doing the “beating”. JHolo
Unguided evolution only explains genetic diseases and deformities. The reason why the paper “Waiting for TWO Mutations” was written is because there isn’t any actual evidence for unguided evolution besides genetic diseases and deformities. JVL:
What does ID predict?
Exactly what I have been telling you. But thanks for proving that you are a willfully ignorant coward. ET
JVL
But my question is: can you provide a repeatable, observer independent test or experiment which ID predicts an outcome that is different from that offered by unguided evolution? Yes or no?
You're paradigm by this yes or no question is how the properties of matter are used to make predictive models. We can characterize electro magnetism or gravity and create a predictive model. ID proposes a mind as the mechanism that can account for the observation. The test or the mechanism is whether a mind can arrange parts. This is indeed very testable and predictable as we are communicating by arranged abstract symbols or parts. bill cole
JVL:
You are not answering my question, deliberately it seems.
You are just too stupid to understand the answer. That is because you are just a scientifically illiterate troll. The test for Intelligent Design was to peer inside the black box that is a living cell. And if we see: 1) High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design. 2) Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity. 3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity. 4) Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems. ET
The test for Intelligent Design was to peer inside the black box that is a living cell. 1) High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design. 2) Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity. 3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity. 4) Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems. ET
ET: You are just stupid: “Our ability to be confident of the design of the cilium or intracellular transport rests on the same principles to be confident of the design of anything: the ordering of separate components to achieve an identifiable function that depends sharply on the components.” You are not answering my question, deliberately it seems. Either that or you're just stupid. Which is it? I am not asking you why you infer design! Again: can you provide an objective, repeatable, observer independent test that give an result predicted by ID but not by unguided evolutionary theory? That's what Newton did. That's what Einstein did. They proposed an explanation and then said: if my theory is correct you will see this and that instead of other things under certain conditions. Can you do the same with ID? Yes or no? Unguided evolution only explains genetic diseases and deformities. The reason why the paper “Waiting for TWO Mutations” was written is because there isn’t any actual evidence for unguided evolution besides genetic diseases and deformities. What does ID predict? What test or experiment can we set up to show that a prediction of ID is repeatable and observer independent? Can you provide such a test or experiment? Yes or no? That said, if the experiment was to show how many parts some biological system or structure required, Behe laid out the Design criteria. Sigh. Can you provide an objective, repeatable, observer independent test or experiment which fulfils a prediction of ID which is different from the prediction offered by unguided evolution? Yes or no? This is not like your gainsaying of any reference to a scientific theory of evolution provided to you. It's been tried and you just deny, deny, deny. This has to do with you not even being able to provide any kind of objective, observer independent, repeatable test of ID's predictive power. You've said absolutely nothing. You keep trying to duck and dodge and push the argument off onto some other topic. We've all noticed. You haven't answered the question. Are we to take it that you can't? That seems like the most likely situation at this point. JVL
JVL:
But my question is: can you provide a repeatable, observer independent test or experiment which ID predicts an outcome that is different from that offered by unguided evolution?
You have already admitted that any experiment for unguided evolution requires millions of years. And the reason why the paper "Waiting for TWO Mutations" was written is because there isn't any actual evidence for unguided evolution. Not when it comes to producing something like a bacterial flagellum, anyway. That said, if the experiment was to show how many parts some biological system or structure required, Behe laid out the Design criteria. ET
Kairosfocus: you are confirming my suspicion. You have a test in hand passed trillions of times but that will never be enough, oh on some excuse we ignore it and demand a different, novel test. I take it that you cannot provide an objective, repeatable, observer independent test or experiment that gives an outcome predicted by ID but not by unguided evolution. Why didn't you just say so? A test is different that pointing to more cases of your assertion. But you don't seem to understand that. JVL
Fred Hickson:
He’s been getting a bit of a beating from the other regulars at Peaceful Science.
In what way? No one there has ever presented any evidence that evolution by means of blind and mindless processes can do anything other than produce genetic diseases and deformities. And if those feeble-minded pukes ever show up here, they will get the beating. ET
Bill Cole: From this observation using Behe’s method we can infer design. But my question is: can you provide a repeatable, observer independent test or experiment which ID predicts an outcome that is different from that offered by unguided evolution? Yes or no? JVL
Fred Hickson:
There are harder things to explain than the origin of multicellularity with plenty of existant transitional forms around currently that fit the evolutionary picture.
Your continued equivocation is duly noted. And all evolution by means of blind and mindless processes can explain are genetic diseases and deformities. Also, being a metazoan is much more than multicellularity.
I get that ID both explains nothing and everything,...
You are willfully ignorant of ID.
But where do you see yourself in another twenty or so years.
Still far ahead, scientifically, than evolution by means of blind and mindless processes. Your alleged scientific mainstream can't even formulate a scientific theory of evolution. They don't even know what determines biological form. They have nothing but delusions and promissory notes. And all they have for support are clueless tools like you. ET
@ JHolo Bill Cole, see comment 481. He's possibly Michael Behe's greatest fan. He's been getting a bit of a beating from the other regulars at Peaceful Science. Fred Hickson
Querius: Really? So how do you prove something is useless junk? So far, all I’ve seen is the mighty shield of ignorance, namely that if we don’t know what something does, then it must be junk. Aside from you not answering my base question . . . Some sequences are not even transcribed so they cannot have an effect on development or growth. Dr Moran has published a widely distributed list of things that someone would need to address regarding 'junk' DNA; I assume you've seen it? If you find an object in your “junk” drawer, do you immediately throw it away if you don’t know what it’s for or you investigate what it might be for? Again, since you're avoiding my question I'll refer back to Dr Moran's list. Apparently none that can get by your a priori assumptions of “junk.” There’s an accumulation of functions now attributed to “junk” DNA that falsify your irrational position. How much of the human genome once thought to be 'junk' has now been shown to have an important function? I'm not saying that some of the transcribed sections will be found to be important but I think it's pretty clear that a lot will not. So, no, you have not falsified my position because you noticed that some sections do have a function. JVL
Evolution by means of blind and mindless processes can’t account for metazoans.
There are harder things to explain than the origin of multicellularity with plenty of existant transitional forms around currently that fit the evolutionary picture. I get that ID both explains nothing and everything, depending who is promoting it to which audience. But where do you see yourself in another twenty or so years. Still at ground zero still complaining the scientific mainstream is ignoring you? I suspect so. Fred Hickson
FH: Hi Bill Are you taking a bit of an R & R break from Peaceful Science?
Who is Bill? JHolo
Why is it that no one can link to this alleged scientific theory of evolution? It's as if it doesn't exist! ET
JHolo, Fred and JVL are proud to be equivocating cowards. ET
Hi Bill Are you taking a bit of an R & R break from Peaceful Science? Fred Hickson
Fred, buy a vowel. Tiktaalik doesn't have anything to do with evolution by means of blind and mindless processes. Evolution by means of blind and mindless processes can't account for metazoans. ET
Evolutionary theory predicts that changes in environmental conditions can result in local extinction and reproductive separation and isolation of sub-populations. JHolo
Unguided evolution only explains genetic diseases and deformities. The reason why the paper "Waiting for TWO Mutations" was written is because there isn't any actual evidence for unguided evolution besides genetic diseases and deformities. ET
Tiktaalik. Why did Shubin know where to look? Another evolutionary prediction confirmed. Fred Hickson
JVL:
So, you claim you have proven a negative and eliminated things other than intelligent design but you cannot provide a test or experiment the outcome of which is predicted by ID and is different from the prediction offered by unguided evolutionary theory?
You are just stupid: “Our ability to be confident of the design of the cilium or intracellular transport rests on the same principles to be confident of the design of anything: the ordering of separate components to achieve an identifiable function that depends sharply on the components.” ET
AS & Q though there is a dictionary meaning of presumption that fits, it tends to suggest blind a priori, I would avoid the word. KF kairosfocus
Evolutionary theory predicts that new antibiotics will be effective for a period of time before antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria arise. How does ID predict this? JHolo
JVL, you are confirming my suspicion. You have a test in hand passed trillions of times but that will never be enough, oh on some excuse we ignore it and demand a different, novel test. KF kairosfocus
Oh Querius. God is watching, you know. Fred Hickson
When COVID-19 emerged as a human pandemic, the evolutionary theory that ET claims doesn’t exist, predicts that mutations in the virus would result in waves of infection. How does ID explain this? JHolo
JVL @479,
Sigh. Can you provide an objective, repeatable test or experiment or scenario which will support an ID prediction which is different from those predictions made by unguided evolutionary theory?
Apparently none that can get by your a priori assumptions of "junk." There's an accumulation of functions now attributed to "junk" DNA that falsify your irrational position. For example https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/04/180411131659.htm There you go. Your presumption of junk just blew up in your face. -Q Querius
JVL "
So, you claim you have proven a negative and eliminated things other than intelligent design but you cannot provide a test or experiment the outcome of which is predicted by ID and is different from the prediction offered by unguided evolutionary theory? Is that it?"
Behe's proposed these method is whether we can identify a purpose for an arranged set of parts. The more parts and the closer they are coordinated the stronger the design inference. One of his examples is the bacterial flagellum which has 30 plus well matched parts. The purpose of the flagellum is to provide mobility to bacteria. From this observation using Behe's method we can infer design. bill cole
JVL @447,
Unguided evolution would predict that there would be ‘junk’ in many genomes which is the case.
Really? So how do you prove something is useless junk? So far, all I've seen is the mighty shield of ignorance, namely that if we don't know what something does, then it must be junk. If you find an object in your "junk" drawer, do you immediately throw it away if you don't know what it's for or you investigate what it might be for? -Q Querius
LCD: Biologists are using ID logic in lab to discover new logical processes(chemistry don’t help to discover code ,feedback loops, detection and repair errors . There are no “errors” in chemistry ). Science is based entirely on ID thinking that universe/life has a logical coherence .Materialism is a science stopper because if everything is random then science must be unintelligible . Science can’t exist in truly random universe. Science exist because universe has coherence. Universe has coherence because is created. Sigh. Can you provide an objective, repeatable test or experiment or scenario which will support an ID prediction which is different from those predictions made by unguided evolutionary theory? Yes or no? JVL
Fred Hickson: That’s an extremely generous response to Querius’s comment 445. Your forebearance is impressive. I'm just trying to make sure things are clear: does ID offer an experimentally verifiable prediction or not. This has NOTHING to do with any of the reasons any of the ID proponents here have for believing ID is true. I'm not arguing against those things. I'm just asking: can you provide a test or experiment where the outcome is predicted by ID by not by unguided evolutionary processes? I would have thought that a) that point was clear and b) that all the ID proponents who assert that ID is science would be able to provide such a test. As ET said in comment 442:
Science demands the claims being made have evidentiary support but also have to be testable, tested and confirmed.
Nothing I've heard so far can be interpreted as an independent test or experiment, preferably repeatable and observer independent, which can support ID. What i have heard is a lot of assertions and claims and suggestions that a negative has been proven. This is NOT about unguided evolution. This is about ID being science. Is there a test or experiment or scenario which will fulfil a prediction of ID that is not predicted by unguided evolution? It should be easy to say yes or no. JVL
Biologists are using ID logic in lab to discover new logical processes(chemistry don't help to discover code ,feedback loops, detection and repair errors . There are no "errors" in chemistry ). Science is based entirely on ID thinking that universe/life has a logical coherence .Materialism is a science stopper because if everything is random then science must be unintelligible . Science can't exist in truly random universe. Science exist because universe has coherence. Universe has coherence because is created. Lieutenant Commander Data
@ JVL That's an extremely generous response to Querius's comment 445. Your forebearance is impressive. Fred Hickson
ET: If we observe that and don’t have any idea how blind and mindless processes could have done it, we are safe to infer it was accomplished by means of Intelligent Design. That is a test for ID. But JVL is a scientifically illiterate troll. So, he cannot understand scientific tests. So, you claim you have proven a negative and eliminated things other than intelligent design but you cannot provide a test or experiment the outcome of which is predicted by ID and is different from the prediction offered by unguided evolutionary theory? Is that it? so, ID has no idea what's coming next, what path or forms life will explore in the future? Is that right? Again, for the learning impaired: Newton’s four rules of scientific reasoning mandate that all design inferences eliminate blind and mindless processes first. And you say you've proven that negative but you cannot offer an ID based prediction on what will happen next. Is that right? So, just to summarise, NO ONE has offered up a test or experiment that can be run which will give an ID predicted outcome different from that predicted by unguided evolutionary processes. Is that right? Can I infer then that ID is NOT experimentally verifiable? NOT do you think you've proven a negative (that something else couldn't have been responsible) but is there a positive test that I can do which will show that only ID can explain an observed change? Yes or no? JVL
LCD: Organisms have logical functions and predetermined goals that can’t be accounted by natural laws. End of story. That is not a test of ID. Biologists think like ID proponents when study life in the lab and then outside the lab act like materialists when have “to explain” how coded logical processes /systems/feedback loops are the result of chaos .It’s easy to understand why they lie : competing with chaos they would look important (while competing with a smarter Designer …) Right, so are you saying that ID cannot provide predictable outcomes because . . . why exactly? JVL
JVL:
I’m not asking you to test unguided evolution, I’m asking you to test ID.
Again, for the learning impaired: Newton’s four rules of scientific reasoning mandate that all design inferences eliminate blind and mindless processes first. What part of that are you too stupid to understand, JVL? ET
“Our ability to be confident of the design of the cilium or intracellular transport rests on the same principles to be confident of the design of anything: the ordering of separate components to achieve an identifiable function that depends sharply on the components.” If we observe that and don’t have any idea how blind and mindless processes could have done it, we are safe to infer it was accomplished by means of Intelligent Design. That is a test for ID. But JVL is a scientifically illiterate troll. So, he cannot understand scientific tests. ET
ET: I forgot that you are scientifically illiterate. Newton’s four rules of scientific reasoning mandate that all design inferences eliminate blind and mindless processes first I'm not asking you to test unguided evolution, I'm asking you to test ID. IF ID has a unifying idea or hypothesis then it should be able to predict the outcome of a test or experiment which brings its influence to the fore. Can you propose such a test or experiment, test or no? I have. You choked on it. Your willful ignorance and scientific illiteracy are not arguments. Well repeat it again so all the other participants can make a judgement. JVL
JVL:
Give me a situation where ID predicts the outcome of a repeatable test or experiment.
I have. You choked on it. Your willful ignorance and scientific illiteracy are not arguments. ET
Organisms have logical functions and predetermined goals that can't be accounted by natural laws. End of story. Biologists think like ID proponents when study life in the lab and then outside the lab act like materialists when they try "to explain" how coded logical processes /systems/feedback loops are the result of chaos .It's easy to understand why they lie : competing with chaos they would look important (while competing with a smarter Designer ...) Lieutenant Commander Data
ET: You are a clueless and deluded loser. Not one of those has anything to do with unguided evolution. Not one. Try again. Fine, one up me. Give me a situation where ID predicts the outcome of a repeatable test or experiment. So far you haven't proposed anything. JVL
JVL: '
That is not a test!
Yes, it is! It says what we should expect. It is just like archaeology and forensic science.
I’m not asking you to test unguided evolutionary theory, I’m asking you to test ID. Can you test ID?
I forgot that you are scientifically illiterate. Newton's four rules of scientific reasoning mandate that all design inferences eliminate blind and mindless processes first
What, exactly, would be different chemically between now and then?
For a start DNA-based life needs existing proteins and an existing coded information processing system. ET
Asauber: The presumption of design is demonstrated by function. Good lord. Why is my request so hard for you to understand? Can you verify ID experimentally? Give me a situation where I can see that ID predicts the outcome. Is that so hard to understand? JVL
JVL:
Unguided evolution would predict that bacteria will develop resistance to new anti-biotics and we have seen that happen many times.
Nonsense. That doesn't have anything to do with unguided evolution.
Unguided evolution would predict ring species and we have evidence that such things have happened. Unguided evolution would predict that a species arriving on a remote, isolated location removed from its parent species will become one or more distinct species and we have clear evidence such things have happened. Unguided evolution would predict that weird physical adaptions (like the giraffe’s laryngeal nerve or the human inverted retina) will occur. Unguided evolution would predict that, since many mutations are deleterious, quite a few foetuses are spontaneously aborted which we do observed. Unguided evolution would predict that there would be ‘junk’ in many genomes which is the case.
You are a clueless and deluded loser. Not one of those has anything to do with unguided evolution. Not one. Try again. ET
ET: As Dr. Behe said and I have told you at least 1,000 times: That is not a test! Can you propose a scenario where we set up a situation with a given life form, put it under a given pressure or situation and an effect is observed predicted by ID and not by unguided evolution? Not: can I find this or that. Can you propose a test or experiment that ID can predict the outcome? If we observe that and don’t have any idea how blind and mindless processes could have done it, we are safe to infer it was accomplished by means of Intelligent Design. I'm not asking you to test unguided evolutionary theory, I'm asking you to test ID. Can you test ID? Again, can you propose a situation where an effect is induced, predicted by ID and not predicted by unguided evolution, that is repeatable and observer independent? Yes or no? Earth to Fred- what happens inside of modern cells is not indicative of any imaginary, fantasy RNA world. What, exactly, would be different chemically between now and then? JVL
The National Academy of Sciences has objected that intelligent design is not falsifiable, and I think that’s just the opposite of the truth. Intelligent design is very open to falsification. I claim, for example, that the bacterial flagellum could not be produced by natural selection; it needed to be deliberately intelligently designed. Well, all a scientist has to do to prove me wrong is to take a bacterium without a flagellum, or knock out the genes for the flagellum in a bacterium, go into his lab and grow that bug for a long time and see if it produces anything resembling a flagellum. If that happened, intelligent design, as I understand it, would be knocked out of the water. I certainly don’t expect it to happen, but it’s easily falsified by a series of such experiments. Now let’s turn that around and ask, How do we falsify the contention that natural selection produced the bacterial flagellum? If that same scientist went into the lab and knocked out the bacterial flagellum genes, grew the bacterium for a long time, and nothing much happened, well, he’d say maybe we didn’t start with the right bacterium, maybe we didn’t wait long enough, maybe we need a bigger population, and it would be very much more difficult to falsify the Darwinian hypothesis. I think the very opposite is true. I think intelligent design is easily testable, easily falsifiable, although it has not been falsified, and Darwinism is very resistant to being falsified. They can always claim something was not right.- Dr Behe
ET
ID is based on three premises and the inference that follows (DeWolf et al., Darwinism, Design and Public Education, pg. 92):
1) High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design. 2) Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity. 3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity. 4) Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems.
And guess what? That is more than evolution by means of blind, mindless and purposeless processes can muster. Both JVL and Fred have choked on that. ET
JVL, The presumption of design is demonstrated by function. Andrew asauber
There isn't any unguided evolutionary theory. The reason that the paper "Waiting for TWO Mutations" was written is because there isn't any actual evidence for unguided evolution beyond genetic diseases and deformities. ET
JVL:
What kind of test could you set up for ID? Some scenario which will always produce a predicted outcome . . . or not.
As Dr. Behe said and I have told you at least 1,000 times:
"Our ability to be confident of the design of the cilium or intracellular transport rests on the same principles to be confident of the design of anything: the ordering of separate components to achieve an identifiable function that depends sharply on the components.”
If we observe that and don't have any idea how blind and mindless processes could have done it, we are safe to infer it was accomplished by means of Intelligent Design. ET
Fred Hickson:
Absolutely, except for the fact that RNA-to-DNA and DNA-to-RNA copying by direct complementary base pairing works so well, it’s still happening in cells today and ribozymes are still central and essential in cellar metabolism.
Earth to Fred- what happens inside of modern cells is not indicative of any imaginary, fantasy RNA world. ET
Kairosfocus: At this point I think you are trying to make up scenarios to try to pretend that the design inference does not make testable predictions. Here's what I am asking you, AGAIN: Can you propose a testable situation that I can put an existing life form in that will instigate a change predicted by ID? A change NOT predicted by unguided evolutionary theory? A test that is clear and unambiguous, a test that anyone with a certain level of ability and equipment could reproduce. Nothing you are saying addressing a change dictated by ID. IF ID affects development and speciation then it has to introduce change. Can you propose a test or experiment to show that ID can and will, predictably, introduce a change? Yes or no? A test base of trillions is among the most thoroughly tested matters, ever. That is NOT showing that ID is capable of predicting a change unpredicted by unguided evolutionary theory. Can ID predict developmental changes, yes or no? JVL
PPS, recall, FSCO/I includes design specifications for objects, so, it is WLOG. At this point I think you are trying to make up scenarios to try to pretend that the design inference does not make testable predictions. A test base of trillions is among the most thoroughly tested matters, ever. kairosfocus
Kairosfocus: the prediction as you know is even more obvious, that observed cases of origin of FSCO/I beyond 500 to 1,000 bits will continue the trillions so far trend. That is not a prediction. That is your assertion: that a certain level of what you call FSCO/I is an indication of intelligent design. That is not a prediction, that is your assertion. And your sentence is really poorly phrased. I am talking about a test or experiment. One that you can do, one that I can do, one that everyone can do given a certain level of equipment and expertise of course. Give me a scenario where an effect is observed after the test or experiment, an effect that is predicted by ID. That does not mean just counting how many genomic base pairs there are. THAT IS NOT A TEST. As you also know, random document generation exercises have got to about 24 ascii characters in meaningful strings, 1 in 106100 on config space size of the threshold. This is mostly gibberish and HAS NOTHING to do with what I'm asking for. You picked the threshold, you just running around finding more examples IS NOT a test or experiment. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Can ID be tested in a laboratory or real world situation? Can you give me a repeatable, observer independent situation that I can set up which will give an ID predicted result? Yes or no? future FSCO/I strings are not known data and there is no serious debate over interpretation. That is not a test or experiment! I know you know what I mean; why can't you just deal with the actual question? Having made the assertion that a certain length of string is a win for you is NOT the same as testing an assertion! You are not testing anything! Especially since you never actually tested your assertion in the first place except to say: well, that's what we've always observed. And, yes, your interpretation is widely disagreed with. What I'm proposing bypasses all of that. Can you propose a test or experiment, yes or no? JVL
PS, future FSCO/I strings are not known data and there is no serious debate over interpretation. kairosfocus
JVL, the prediction as you know is even more obvious, that observed cases of origin of FSCO/I beyond 500 to 1,000 bits will continue the trillions so far trend. Coming about by intelligently directed configuration. As you also know, random document generation exercises have got to about 24 ascii characters in meaningful strings, 1 in 10^100 on config space size of the threshold. And no you do not get to try to invent oddball tests, there is a perfectly valid one on the table. KF kairosfocus
Kairosfocus: origin of FSCO/I is repeatable and observable, just regard comments in thread as cases in point. And you know this too. No, you are missing the point. Can you propose a test or experiment that you can do and that I can do which fulfils a prediction of ID. The whole point of doing a test or experiment is that it's not clear what is going to happen, if a certain thing happens then it's seen as support for a certain hypothesis. I'm thinking of putting some life form into a certain situation and a predicted outcome occurs. Just saying: oh look, here's another example of FSCO/I is NOT what I'm talking about. As should be blatantly obvious. We disagree on your interpretation so I'm asking for something different. Can you propose a test that does not just involve interpreting known data? Can you propose an experiment where something CHANGES according to an ID prediction? My question is very, very clear. Please don't keep wasting time dancing around it. JVL
JVL, origin of FSCO/I is repeatable and observable, just regard comments in thread as cases in point. And you know this too. KF kairosfocus
Asuaber: I’d say function, period. So . . . are you saying all the genome will be shown to be functional? What do you mean by functional? Are you including all the repeated sequences or just the first occurrence? And the broken genes? Everything? If not then what? JVL
Kairosfocus: We both know that FSCO/Ihas been observed to occur by intelligently directed configuration trillions of times and has never been seen by blind chance. Show an observed case of FSCO/I beyond 500 – 1,000 bits occurring by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity and the design inference would collapse. You keep pushing because you refuse to acknowledge the facts which are uncongenial to your preferences. As should be clear I'm talking about something else entirely. I'm asking for a test or experiment which is repeatable and observer independent which ID predicts the outcome. Oh and it should be something that is different from what is predicted by unguided evolutionary theory. This is entirely different from arguing whether or not already observed life forms exhibit design. This is asking if ID has predictive powers and how could that be tested. If you predict that more of the genome will be found to have function then a) that is a weak statement, b) many unguided evolutionists would agree with you and c) it's not specific. If you predict that ALL of the genome will be found to have function then that is something that can be tested. (In fact it already has been checked.) If you predict that 50% of the genome will be found to have function then that is also something which can, eventually, be tested. You would also have to make sure you were specific: would your prediction include all of the repeated segments? So, can you propose a test or experiment which ID can predict the outcome? A test that is repeatable? A test that is clear and unambiguous. JVL
"The presumption of design is demonstrated by the functions later discovered in “junk” DNA." I'd say function, period. Andrew asauber
Querius: The presumption of design is demonstrated by the functions later discovered in “junk” DNA. The functions of “vestigial” organs–useless vestiges of evolution–are now termed ductless glands, the thyroid being one of them. No, that's not a test. That's an interpretation of the data. I'm talking about setting up a test or experiment that will give a predicted result. It should be repeatable by others. Is there such a thing for ID? But, I’m sure you’ll always ask for new examples after you wave off new discoveries that validate the presumption of design. I'm avoiding arguing over interpretations of known (and possibly future) examples. In contrast, Darwinism has successfully predicted nothing in advance. Its utility seems to be confined to rationalizing discoveries on what “musta” happened millions of years ago. Unguided evolution would predict that bacteria will develop resistance to new anti-biotics and we have seen that happen many times. Unguided evolution would predict ring species and we have evidence that such things have happened. Unguided evolution would predict that a species arriving on a remote, isolated location removed from its parent species will become one or more distinct species and we have clear evidence such things have happened. Unguided evolution would predict that weird physical adaptions (like the giraffe's laryngeal nerve or the human inverted retina) will occur. Unguided evolution would predict that, since many mutations are deleterious, quite a few foetuses are spontaneously aborted which we do observed. Unguided evolution would predict that there would be 'junk' in many genomes which is the case. So, what does ID predict? Can we set up an experiment or test to see one of those predictions come true? What would that be then? This is the nature of science: can your 'theory' predict an outcome that can then be verified? Tell me how to do that with ID. JVL
JVL, when something has been answered cogently on the record a great many times but you keep asking as if it has not been given that is then a rhetorical tactic not an honest question, meant to cast doubt. We both know that FSCO/Ihas been observed to occur by intelligently directed configuration trillions of times and has never been seen by blind chance. Show an observed case of FSCO/I beyond 500 - 1,000 bits occurring by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity and the design inference would collapse. You keep pushing because you refuse to acknowledge the facts which are uncongenial to your preferences. KF kairosfocus
JVL @444,
What kind of test could you set up for ID? Some scenario which will always produce a predicted outcome . . . or not.
It's already done many times! The presumption of design is demonstrated by the functions later discovered in "junk" DNA. The functions of "vestigial" organs--useless vestiges of evolution--are now termed ductless glands, the thyroid being one of them. But, I'm sure you'll always ask for new examples after you wave off new discoveries that validate the presumption of design. In contrast, Darwinism has successfully predicted nothing in advance. Its utility seems to be confined to rationalizing discoveries on what "musta" happened millions of years ago. -Q Querius
ET: Science demands the claims being made have evidentiary support but also have to be testable, tested and confirmed. Speaking of which . . . What kind of test could you set up for ID? Some scenario which will always produce a predicted outcome . . . or not. Can you reliably and predictably promulgate an ID event? JVL
Even given a RNA world, there isn’t any link to DNA-based life.
Absolutely, except for the fact that RNA-to-DNA and DNA-to-RNA copying by direct complementary base pairing works so well, it's still happening in cells today and ribozymes are still central and essential in cellar metabolism. Apart from that... Fred Hickson
Fred:
Anyway, perhaps Upright Biped will respond.
What's to respond to? You have FAILED to present any evidence. You have FAILED to present any science. You are a FAILURE. No one dismisses the alleged RNA world because there isn't any evidence for one. Science demands the claims being made have evidentiary support but also have to be testable, tested and confirmed. You don't have that. All you have is your head up your arse. And you think that takes precedence over science and evidence. ET
Fred Hickson:
First of all, an RNA world means RNA does the job of both storage template for replication and catalytic activity. So the first self-replicators needed no code. Replication is by direct templating.
It's an imaginary fantasy world, Alan. You have FAILED to provide any evidence for any RNA world. You obviously don't care about science.
Given this situation, RNA role substition to DNA also requires only direct templating, no arbitrary codes involved.
Given your weakness for science and honesty, we know that you will NEVER support that claim. Fred/ Alan is totally clueless. Even given a RNA world, there isn't any link to DNA-based life. It is sheer desperation based on the need to reject ID at all costs. Pathetic, really. ET
Fred Hickson:
And following ET’s example of metaphorical fingers inserted deeply into ears is also available.
I see that Alan is still a lying coward. How quaint. ET
Anyway, perhaps Upright Biped will respond. Tomorrow is another day. Fred Hickson
So, when I consider that I proved Fred Hickson wrong on hydra by providing a link to the web page of a research cell biologist on the subject, he couldn’t bring himself to admit he was wrong.
Dear me, binary thinking is an issue. I merely queried your claim and asked for clarification because, on the face of it, it seemed extreme. I'm still not clear which hydra species you were working with and whether the extremely long tentacles you observed were simply the limit of the normal etension/retraction and involved only topological change or that some mutation was involved. You deflected by telling me to try it (what? - no details provided) and then took offense when I pointed out the difficulties. People here seem very thin-skinned. Almost like a deflection strategy, attack the person rather than discuss issues. No worries but where does it get Intelligent Design? No nearer being taken seriously as an avenue for scientific endeavor. Fred Hickson
And following ET's example of metaphorical fingers inserted deeply into ears is also available. Fred Hickson
FH seemed to answer the question of “how many” by saying “one at a time”. So, a self-replicating organism would start with one of the required 20 amino acids, apparently, and then just add others in gradual-Darwinian style? That seems absurd on the face of it, if not impossible.
First of all, an RNA world means RNA does the job of both storage template for replication and catalytic activity. So the first self-replicators needed no code. Replication is by direct templating. Given this situation, RNA role substition to DNA also requires only direct templating, no arbitrary codes involved. Substitution of RNA's role as catalysts could then be Darwinian. There is no requirement that all 20 aminoacids included in the "standard" genetic code needed to be involved all at once and thus no need for 20 aaRSs all at once. Hence "One"! PS Upright Biped's argument over aaRSs is a pretty good one and if, as I did for several years, we reject RNA world as a precursor to DNA/RNA/protein life as we have it now, it is a fatal one. UB needs to reconsider in the light of RNA world scenario or make an argument that RNA world is impossible. Not reconsidering his claim and dismissing RNA world is also an option, of course. Fred Hickson
Fred Hickson:
The current code certainly suggests an earlier doublet code which allows indirect templating from one to sixteen.
Only to the desperate. There isn't any evidence for a simpler genetic code. None. ET
And remember, any RNA world exists only in the imaginations of the desperate. ET
Silver Asiatic @432,
FH seemed to answer the question of “how many” by saying “one at a time”.
No, actually Fred Hickson simply said "one." This was presumably an ambiguous non-answer to Upright Biped's observation:
tRNA synthetase (aaRS) play one of the critical roles in establishing the description-based system.
And Upright Biped's subsequent question:
Regardless of what you believe may have come before that event occurred, at that point in time, how many of the other aaRS constraints has to be in place?
So, we don't really know if Fred Hickson wants to emphasize multiple critical roles in establishing the description based system, whether it's his guess at how many other aaRS constraints has to be in place, or whether his full answer copied from Wikipedia didn't successfully paste in before he hit Post Comment. So, when I consider that I proved Fred Hickson wrong on hydra by providing a link to the web page of a research cell biologist on the subject, he couldn't bring himself to admit he was wrong. So, why would anyone want to have a conversation with such a person? As I mentioned before, I appreciate the detailed explanation from Upright Biped infinitely more than a "one" from Fred Hickson. Coincidentally, his comment of "Then the scaffolding can fall away" (another miracle!) reminds me of Alexander Graham Cairns-Smith's 1966 origin-of-life theory, which seems to pop up every decade or so. The primary reason the clay origin of life was rejected was that it sounded too Biblical. So, I'd suggest stop feeding the troll. The troll contributes zero to the discussion. Oh, pardon me. He contributes "one." -Q Querius
UB Thanks for sharing your expertise on this. It's an area I want to learn more about and I appreciate your explanation - very clear and detailed. FH seemed to answer the question of "how many" by saying "one at a time". So, a self-replicating organism would start with one of the required 20 amino acids, apparently, and then just add others in gradual-Darwinian style? That seems absurd on the face of it, if not impossible. Silver Asiatic
And remember, in RNA world, there is no triplet code, all is direct templating.
:) Of course, of course. Don't forget to take your pills. Lieutenant Commander Data
And remember, in RNA world, there is no triplet code, all is direct templating. And anything is better than nothing. The current code certainly suggests an earlier doublet code which allows indirect templating from one to sixteen. Then the scaffolding can fall away. Fred Hickson
Well, what are your reasons for thinking otherwise? Remember, in RNA world, there are no proteins. Fred Hickson
. So, when the first aaRS protein was created from genetic memory and went on the establish the codon to amino acid relationship, it was comprised on one amino acid. Of course. Why didn’t I think of that. Upright BiPed
One. Fred Hickson
. Are you wanting to engage me in earnest Fred? Okay, here’s the question, let us have your answer: UB: tRNA synthetase (aaRS) play one of the critical roles in establishing the description-based system. These are complex proteins that are specified from encoded memory. They did not always exist on earth, which implies that there was once (at some point in the past) the very first time that an aaRS that was successfully synthesized from memory and went on to serve its function. Regardless of what you believe may have come before that event occurred, at that point in time, how many of the other aaRS constraints has to be in place? Upright BiPed
Upright Biped
He was only here to insult me personally.
On the contrary, I have been very careful to avoid insulting you personally. Fred Hickson
One! The answer to your question, Upright Biped, (now you have clarified) is one. Fred Hickson
He was only here to insult me personally. From him to me, he had (and has) that personal need. That’s all he wanted, that’s certainly all he got.
He said something similarly about me, I am not trying to say I am as knowledgeable as you are on this. That’s obviously not true. But he used the same technique. jerry
.
Silver Asiatic: The constraint is that which directs the mRNA to specify a certain amino acid and not something else. It’s not something inherent in the structure of the mRNA. The constraint (the specifier) comes from a molecule outside of the mRNA. Information is communicated which constrains the aaRS to a specific formulation. So, the question is how many of these are required for the aaRS to function?
Hello SA, Here are a couple things I thought I might point out. There are roughly 20 different amino acids that make up the overwhelming bulk of all the various proteins found in the living kingdom. It is the sequential arrangement of those amino acids in each protein that gives each protein its own unique physical properties (enabling it to do whatever it does inside the cell, making Life physically possible). The cell reads the sequence of codons in DNA in order to construct each of the these proteins with the correct sequence of amino acids. Each of those individual amino acids has to be specified in the genetic memory in order to be assembled in the correct order. That is accomplished by using two physical objects — a token and a constraint. The token comes in the form of three bases in a “codon” of DNA or RNA. It is then the job of the constraint to establish a relationship between an individual codon and the particular amino acid it is intended to specify within the system. It is important the remember how this takes place. In 1953, physicist Francis Crick and biologist James Watson famously discovered the sequential memory (the sequence of bases) in the DNA molecule. This set off a race to understand how the sequence of bases in DNA actually specified the sequence of amino acids in a protein. Shortly thereafter, Crick had compared the size and structure of the base sequence and determined that it was not possible for the amino acids to be ordered directly on the base sequence, and so there was a grand mystery as to how this all took place. Two years later in 1955, Crick began to develop a particular solution to the mystery, which Sydney Brenner nicknamed the “adapter hypothesis” prior to it being presented to a group of scientists called the RNA Tie Club at Cambridge. Crick reasoned that there would be a set of 20 proteins and 20 “adapter” molecules at work in the system. Each of the adapters would carry with it a short complimentary sequence of bases (later called the “anti-codon”) that would match up directly to the codons along the genetic memory. It would then be the job of the 20 complex proteins to perform a specific kind of double recognition. In other words, each protein would recognize a specific amino acid, and then attach it only to the adapters that had the correct sequence of bases (the correct anti-codon) for that particular amino acid. The adapters would then carry the amino acids directly to the site of protein construction and their amino acid cargo would then be assembled in the order dictated by the sequence of codons in the genetic memory. These 20 complex proteins are the aaRS (aminoacyl tRNA synthetase) — the constraints in the gene system. By performing their double recognition, they are the molecules in biology that establish the genetic code — they establish (constrain) the relationships between the (codon) symbols and their (amino acid) referents. From the literature, I have come to know the aaRS being referred to as “non-holonomic” constraints. I believe this is generally a systematics term, basically referring to a physical system that can deliver multiple alternative outcomes. By selecting any particular alternative, the system does not become physically limited (as some systems do) from delivering any other alternative – a rather apt description of the gene system and the constraints that make it physically possible to function as it does. … So these are the things that Fred must avoid at all costs. I ask him how many aaRS had to be in place in order to physically specify and construct an aaRS from genetic memory. He then he did (and will always do) anything and everything to avoid that question. He starts this charade by telling us gleefully that RNA doesn’t have or need all the parts to specify a protein, then tells us, nonetheless, that this same system started spitting them out anyway, one by one. Surprise surprise, surprise. I went back in the comments history and noticed that Fred has actually been trying to call me out for weeks here. (“Upright Biped Upright Biped Upright Biped”). He even says that I am the only reason he showed up here. I asked him a core question about the gene system and he pisses himself in front of everyone. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Fred: The job of aaRSs did not exist in RNA world. Fred: My challenge is to propose the steps that could have taken RNA world to DNA-protein world. UB: How many aaRS does it take to specify and construct an aaRS? Fred: Whaddya mean by how many?!? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - He was only here to insult me personally. From him to me, he had (and has) that personal need. That’s all he wanted, that’s certainly all he got. Upright BiPed
Completely off topic except it refutes Darwinian Evolution. I’m reading/listening to Alex Epstein’s “Fossil Future” and he inadvertently refutes Darwin. I’m not sure he understood what he was doing. In all of history, human beings suffered from one major weakness, according to Epstein. (There are probably others)
That is physical weakness that limited what they could do to get food
Humans barely had enough strength to live. But they did not evolve stronger humans when strength would be an obvious characteristic leading to more offspring. So a good question for the pro Darwin commenters. Why? Aside: highly recommend Epstein’s book. He demolishes the climate change advocates. With facts and morals. jerry
Why SETI is relevant- SETI attempts to detect intelligent design without knowing the designers. ET
Fred Hickson:
Anyway, UB, you raised the totally irrelevant though intriguing subject of SETI.
It isn't irrelevant. You are irrelevant. Weird how Fred "argues" just like Alan Fox! ET
They [SETI] have criteria for determining artificial from natural. Fred:
Really?
Yes, Fred, they do. As do archaeologists, forensic scientists and other investigative venues. When attacking a strawman of ID, Seth Shostok said:
If SETI were to announce that we're not alone because it had detected a signal, it would be on the basis of artificiality. An endless, sinusoidal signal - a dead simple tone - is not complex; it's artificial. Such a tone just doesn't seem to be generated by natural astrophysical processes. In addition, and unlike other radio emissions produced by the cosmos, such a signal is devoid of the appendages and inefficiencies nature always seems to add
ET
FH, how do people go about distinguishing signal from noise to get to the famed ratio? KF kairosfocus
They [SETI] have criteria for determining artificial from natural.
Really? They're very coy about that on their website. Do you have privileged information? Can you share it? Fred Hickson
Seversky
Could this mean the Universe is finely-tuned for long-lived geological features?
Being ephemeral, we'll never know. Half seriously, there may be an upper limit to the power of human comprehension. What's the line from H G Wells? . Yet across the gulf of space, minds that are to our minds as ours are to those of the beasts that perish, intellects vast and cool and unsympathetic, regarded this earth with envious eyes, and slowly and surely drew their plans against us. Fred Hickson
Anyway, UB, you raised the totally irrelevant though intriguing subject of SETI. Fred Hickson
Upright Biped
Is there any reason that I should expect a response to #399?
How do you manage to be so obscure in just a few words? Try something like: @ [name of commenter] Please respond to [number of comment] Fred Hickson
. Is there any reason that I should expect a response to #399? Upright BiPed
Fred Hickson:
The transition from RNA world to DNA/RNA/protein world does not need to happen all at once.
It didn't happen at all. There isn't any evidence for any RNA world. Just a desperate need. And DNA based life is impossible without the pre-encoded information for the proteins that counter DNA's instability.
You already have self-sustaining self-replicators.
Once you get to DNA, you need much more than that or you lose the DNA. Your entire scenario exists in a fantasy world. Yours is the fairy tale fallacy. ET
Fred Hickson/407
Only if you are puny ephemeral humans. https://www.pinterest.com/pin/525443481517863305/
Could this mean the Universe is finely-tuned for long-lived geological features? Seversky
And yes, most likely SETI is a futile endeavor. But that isn't the point. They have criteria for determining artificial from natural. ET
Fred Hickson:
There’s cave paintings and plenty of evidence to link them to the humans that lived and died in and around the caves at the time they were executed.
And there are radio signals and plenty of evidence to link them to their causes. Cause-and-effect relationships rule science.
As for SETI, there are no signals to examine and no candidates for who might be transmitting them.
Yet they know what they are looking for. And that is all that matters. They have a criteria. Yes, obviously they would analyze the signal. But if their criteria is met they would clearly sound the alert. ET
The problem with SETI is that radio signals are an impractical means of communication over interstellar distances.
Only if you are puny ephemeral humans. https://www.pinterest.com/pin/525443481517863305/ Fred Hickson
The problem with SETI is that radio signals are an impractical means of communication over interstellar distances. If we assume that we have been transmitting radio signals that have been leaking into space for the last 100 years then they form a bubble that has expanded about a hundred light-years out from Earth, which is next to nothing in a Galaxy 100,000 light years across. One problem is that they get weaker as they spread out. By the time they are a hundred light-years out they may be so attenuated that they are lost in the background radio noise of the Universe. Conversely, assume there may be a civilization 150 light-years out that has been broadcasting for a hundred years. It's going to be another 50 years before those signals get here but when they do, again, we wouldn't know because the signals are probably so weak we can't detect them. They might get a focused beam to reach out further but why would they point one towards us? We have just been able to detect a little over 5,000 extrasolar planets but we have no idea whether any of them support life, let alone advanced intelligent life. Aliens might have detected the planets around our Sun but have no idea if there's any life here. The nearest star to us is Alpha Centauri which is about 4.3 light-years away. If we beamed a signal saying "Hello?" towards it., at best, it's going to be 8.6 years before we can expect a reply, assuming there is anyone there to answer. Imagine trying to administer a Galactic Federation or Empire spread over thousands of light-years using a communications system that slow. If you sent a signal to a nearby star only 150 light-years away, you'd be dead before the message even got there. In practice, we need some form of as-yet-unknown physics, like the sub-space of Star Trek for practical interstellar comms. I'm sure the SETI researchers are well aware of this. They listen out for radio signals because, in the absence of something like sub-space, what else can they -or anyone else - do? Seversky
Fred Hickson The transition from RNA world to DNA/RNA/protein world does not need to happen all at once.
:lol: Avoid eating fruitcakes and definitely circumambulate those fruitcakes with nuts. Lieutenant Commander Data
It’s like finding a cave painting and saying we can’t tell if it’s an artifact.
Not really. There's cave paintings and plenty of evidence to link them to the humans that lived and died in and around the caves at the time they were executed. Heck, they even signed them with handprints. As for SETI, there are no signals to examine and no candidates for who might be transmitting them. I think it is worthwhile that SETI continue searching for odd signals and it will be fun when and if we have a signal to analyse. Till then, there is nothing useful to say. Anthropomorphism is unavoidable but, there we are. Fred Hickson
The constraint is that which directs the mRNA to specify a certain amino acid and not something else. It’s not something inherent in the structure of the mRNA. The constraint (the specifier) comes from a molecule outside of the mRNA. Information is communicated which constrains the aaRS to a specific formulation. So, the question is how many of these are required for the aaRS to function?
The question has been discussed before (in 2012). The transition from RNA world to DNA/RNA/protein world does not need to happen all at once. You already have self-sustaining self-replicators. Add one amino acid. Add one aaRS. Subtract the redundancy later. It's an easy trap to fall into to think it all had to fall into place at once because we only see what we have today. It's the Texas sharpshooter fallacy. Fred Hickson
Wow. Talk about blatant denial:
“If the scientists at SETI received a signal that contained encoded content, would it clearly infer the presence of a previously unknown intelligence?”</b?
No.
Why not? It's like finding a cave painting and saying we can't tell if it's an artifact. ET
FH
Let me in the meantime idly speculate on what a constraint in the context of the evolution of aaRSs would be?
The constraint is that which directs the mRNA to specify a certain amino acid and not something else. It's not something inherent in the structure of the mRNA. The constraint (the specifier) comes from a molecule outside of the mRNA. Information is communicated which constrains the aaRS to a specific formulation. So, the question is how many of these are required for the aaRS to function? Silver Asiatic
UB
I am quite happy to allow any interested readers analyze your reasoning for themselves.
Yes, that was quite a display of reasoning there. Silver Asiatic
.
UB: the systematic capacity of mRNA to carry the specification of an amino acid does not stem from the structure of the RNA, but from the structure of a separate molecule — a non-holonomic constraint, aaRS. Fred: I have no issue with this (…) UB: Aminoacyl tRNA synthetase (aaRS) play one of the critical roles in establishing the description-based system. These are complex proteins that are specified from encoded memory. They did not always exist on earth, which implies that there was once (at some point in the past) the very first time that an aaRS that was successfully synthesized from memory and went on to serve its function. Regardless of what you believe may have come before that event occurred, at that point in time, how many of the other aaRS constraints has to be in place? Fred: What do you mean by “how many of the other aaRS constraints has to be in place?
Again, are you asking me what “how many” means? I am incredulous that you need such clarification. Upright BiPed
Freddy, "Any thoughts on SETI?" Ideally, when they detect something significant, they'll let us know. "aminoacyl tRNA synthetases?" Not my field of study. However, I do find fake-named know-it-all woke activists somewhat interesting. Andrew asauber
Upright BiPed, There doesn't seem to be any end to Fred Hickson's evasions, despite your detailed explanation. Because he can't refute your information, he - Pretends to not understand - Requests clarification - Assert that your points are irrelevant - Uses his ignorance as a shield - Mocks your points as a joke or "parody" - Resorts to speculation and science fantasy - Counters with unsupported assertions ("No. I don’t agree at all and neither would SETI scientists either.") - Feigns fatigue, lack of time, lack of interest, etc. - Hides behind his contrarian responses - Requires your definition of what you mean by "how many" - and so on Then, after you wrestle him to the ground, he simply jumps to a new post and starts over from scratch. He still owes me an apology after I falsified his hyperskepticism with a link to a research biologist's website confirming that hydra can indeed grow 20 cm in length (or more). I'm not holding my breath on that. And during all his evasions, he probably views himself as nimble and brilliant even after his positions are destroyed. It's like living through a Monty Python skit . . . (The dead parrot skit comes to mind) But your responses are appreciated and I learned things about RNA that I didn't know. Thank you. -Q Querius
Andy, you are a deep thinker obvioulsy! Any thoughts on SETI? Any thoughts on constraints around aminoacyl tRNA synthetases? Fred Hickson
Let me in the meantime idly speculate on what a constraint in the context of the evolution of aaRSs would be? Nope, can't think. Anyone else have a suggestion (printable only)? Fred Hickson
"I am quite happy to allow any interested treasure to analyze your reasoning for themselves." Freddy ain't serious. Andrew asauber
@ UB, What do you mean by "how many of the other aaRS constraints has to be in place?"? Fred Hickson
.
UB: If SETI receives a signal with encoded content would it infer a previously unknown intelligent source. Fred: No UB: Why is that? Fred: Because they haven’t yet received a signal.
I am quite happy to allow any interested readers analyze your reasoning for themselves. So for the second question:
UB: Aminoacyl tRNA synthetase (aaRS) play one of the critical roles in establishing the description-based system. These are complex proteins that are specified from encoded memory. They did not always exist on earth, which implies that there was once (at some point in the past) the very first time that an aaRS that was successfully synthesized from memory and went on to serve its function. Regardless of what you believe may have come before that event occurred, at that point in time, how many of the other aaRS constraints has to be in place?
What is your answer? Upright BiPed
UB, would it be ever so too much trouble to confirm or deny that the version of your semiotic hypothesis that I quoted is still current, or do you have a preferred version available? Fred Hickson
EDIT: Do you need clarification on the words.. “How Many”
Yes please and clarification on what you consider to be constraints in the phrase "how many of the other aaRS constraints has to be in place". TIA Fred Hickson
UB
“If the scientists at SETI received a signal that contained encoded content, would it clearly infer the presence of a previously unknown intelligence?”
No. And even if you remove the word clearly, the answer is still no. It can't be anything else until there is such a signal. Furthermore, let me idly speculate for a moment and wonder whether any extraterrestrial signal sent by an alien civilization intended to communicate information in a universal manner could positively be identified as such. No, I say, while speculating idly. Fred Hickson
. Fred, The actual question: “If the scientists at SETI received a signal that contained encoded content, would it clearly infer the presence of a previously unknown intelligence?” Your answer: “No. I don’t agree at all and neither would SETI scientists either.” Telling me that they haven’t received a signal yet is quite obviously irrelevant. But I’ll let you work that out. In the meantime …
UB: Aminoacyl tRNA synthetase (aaRS) play one of the critical roles in establishing the description-based system. These are complex proteins that are specified from encoded memory. They did not always exist on earth, which implies that there was once (at some point in the past) the very first time that an aaRS that was successfully synthesized from memory and went on to serve its function. Regardless of what you believe may have come before that event occurred, at that point in time, how many of the other aaRS constraints has to be in place? Fred: So is the conundrum “How did aaRSs evolve?”
Is this the extent of your answer? EDIT: Do you need clarification on the words.. “How Many” Upright BiPed
WM
Fred says, “Unless you can demonstrate that it is impossible for him to draw 20 straight flushes in a row, the more likely explanation is that he is not cheating.”
How does your parody connect with anything I've written in this thread or elsewhere? Fred Hickson
William Murray:
Fred Hickson said @341:
Water always runs downhill, water never runs uphill, what’s the difference?<
You’re wrong...
I can only assume you are joking but in case you aren't, explain to me the net result of using a siphon. When you have finished siphoning, is the water higher or lower than it was before. If you think higher, you will be the bane of Sir Arthur Eddington. Fred Hickson
As for the second question, I lifted this directly from your post…
UB: Aminoacyl tRNA synthetase (aaRS) play one of the critical roles in establishing the description-based system. These are complex proteins that are specified from encoded memory. They did not always exist on earth, which implies that there was once (at some point in the past) the very first time that an aaRS that was successfully synthesized from memory and went on to serve its function. Regardless of what you believe may have come before that event occurred, at that point in time, how many of the other aaRS constraints has to be in place? Fred: So is the conundrum “How did aaRSs evolve?”
Is this the extent of your answer?
It's not an answer; it's a request for clarification. Fred Hickson
Upright Biped
I believe we already got your answer to the first question. Originally, you saw no point in engaging the question, but now you’ve circled back to suggest that if SETI researchers received a short-wave carrier signal containing decipherable encoded content, they would not infer an intelligent source from that finding. I am certain that answer speaks for itself.
No idea how you got that out of what I actually wrote. It looks like you just sat there and made it up! ;) For the record, this was my reply: No. I don’t agree at all and neither would SETI scientists either. First, SETI is looking for unusual radio signals from extra-terrestrial sources. So far they have been unsuccessful. When there is an unusual radio signal, then it can be examined to try and glean any purposeful information carried by the signal. Until then, nothing can be said, because as yet, there are no such signals to work with. To repeat, until SETI find an unusual signal, an anomaly, any speculation on how it could be interpreted, what could be inferred from it, is premature and idle speculation. Fred Hickson
. Fred, I believe we already got your answer to the first question. Originally, you saw no point in engaging the question, but now you’ve circled back to suggest that if SETI researchers received a short-wave carrier signal containing decipherable encoded content, they would not infer an intelligent source from that finding. I am certain that answer speaks for itself. As for the second question, I lifted this directly from your post…
UB: Aminoacyl tRNA synthetase (aaRS) play one of the critical roles in establishing the description-based system. These are complex proteins that are specified from encoded memory. They did not always exist on earth, which implies that there was once (at some point in the past) the very first time that an aaRS that was successfully synthesized from memory and went on to serve its function. Regardless of what you believe may have come before that event occurred, at that point in time, how many of the other aaRS constraints has to be in place? Fred: So is the conundrum “How did aaRSs evolve?”
Is this the extent of your answer? Upright BiPed
The Fred Hickson model: Fred is involved in a card game. During the game, one player wins every hand - 20 in a row - with a royal flush. Everyone else at the table accuses the man of cheating. Fred says, "Unless you can demonstrate that it is impossible for him to draw 20 straight flushes in a row, the more likely explanation is that he is not cheating." William J Murray
Fred Hickson said @341:
Water always runs downhill, water never runs uphill, what’s the difference?
You're wrong: https://www.livescience.com/58416-can-water-naturally-flow-uphill.html William J Murray
Fred will never present any evidence for any RNA world. And Fred will never present any evidence that the environment designs.
Good as I’m interested in scientific facts and hypotheses developed from them.
All evidence to the contrary, of course. There aren't any scientific facts that support any RNA world. There aren't any scientific facts to support your personal claim that the environment designs. So, perhaps you should get to work. ET
I've found what may be the earliest clear statement of Upright Biped's hypothesis in a comment directed at Nick Matzke: Nick, the last time I approached you on the topic of biological information, you side-stepped the issue like a cowgirl on a dance floor. I wonder if you might try to enagage in earnest this time. Will you bring your advanced intellect to bear on these three pertinent questions regarding the existence of information within a material universe: 1) In this material universe, is it even conceivably possible to record transferable information without utilizing an arrangement of matter in order to represent that information? (by what other means could it be done?) 2) If 1 is true, then is it even conceivably possible to transfer that information without a second arrangement of matter (a protocol) to establish the relationship between representation and what it represents? (how could such a relationship be established in any other way?) 3) If 1 and 2 are true, then is it even conceivably possible to functionally transfer information without the irreducibly complex system of these two arrangements of matter (representations and protocols) in operation? Fred Hickson
Fred, I have asked two questions.
Seemed to be more than that to me. If I missed the important two, just copy and paste them.
You can only give your preferred answer to the first, but cannot substantiate it. To the second, you have no effective answer, but need one
Which might also give me a clue as to what you are saying here.
Are you familiar with ancient figures such as Sun Tzu? It appears that all of the possible positions in a competition have already been catalogued, very thoroughly.
Perhaps you should paste the relevant quote from The Art of War.
So far, we have a diversion and an insult.
Referencing Sun Tzu seems like a diversion to me but I didn't spot the insult.
There is no doubt more where that came from.
Your choice. As I asked previously, regarding your Semiotic Hypothesis. Have you a text where your hypothesis is set out? All I can find is stuff from 2012. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/ub-sets-it-out-step-by-step/ Is this still correct?
Fred Hickson
UB at 355
As for your challenge, I believe the way forward is obvious. You’ve already made it abundantly clear that a dynamic RNA replicator does not have the capacity to specify anything from encoded memory. It doesn’t have the parts required to physically accomplish the task.
It doesn't have to. That's the point.
This is a problem because it is from this state (of complete incapacity) that you must specify a system capable of specifying itself from an encoded memory — and that system must perpetuate itself over time.
No the template matching when RNA replicates is purely physical. There is no encoding. It's complementary copying all the way down.
The system can be perpetuated by perpetuating the interpretive constraints in the system. This is implied because all the required descriptions are dependent on the constraints; until the constraints are established, the sequences of their descriptions cannot specify them. When the constraints are established and the sequences describe them, the system assumes a functional condition known as “semiotic closure”. In other words, the system must be self-referent in order to function. The way in which the constraints are perpetuated is by specifying them in an encoded inheritable memory. That memory must then be placed in the daughter to continue the replication. This is John Von Neumann’s “threshold of complication” – a point of organization, which above it leads to open-ended potential, but below it leads to degradation and failure.
You are confusing map, John von Neumann's model, which is impressive, with territory.
So the laundry list begins. You are going to have to establish a finite set of symbol tokens (a codon being three bases in length is a system parameter, not the product of a physical law). You are going to have to establish a set of interpretive constraints. You are going to have to establish minimal system commands, like start and stop (i.e. you have multiple discrete parts to describe/construct in order to successfully function). You are going to need a sequential memory that contains the individual sequences (individual descriptions) of all the interpretive constraints, as well as all the other individual descriptions entailed in the functions of copying, control, and construction. The individual portions of this sequential memory that cause these critical functions to occur, must be simultaneously coordinated with the portions of the sequence that describe the interpretive constraints (i.e. if you change any of the latter, it changes all of the former). And so on … This is what you must specify from an organization of RNA that cannot specify anything among alternatives.
In RNA world, templates and active molecules are direct physical copies of each other. Specification is not required.
Upthread you mentioned something about perhaps misunderstanding the argument being made. I do believe you have misunderstood it. You apparently came here thinking I was making a chicken-and-egg argument about what came first, DNA, protein, etc. In actuality, my argument has little to do with the various classes of molecules. It is not that the classes of molecules don’t matter, they certainly do, but it is the systematic roles that they must perform that is critical to the physical success of the system.
I don't misunderstand you there. I just disagree with this claim.
We can cut to the chase.
Please!
OoL researchers (certainly RNA World proponents) invariably start their proposals with a presumed abiotic environment and then try to explain the steps going forward that would eventually result in a description-based replicator over some evolutionary period of time. This means they move from an unknown condition to another unknown condition, then to another unknown condition after that, so on and so forth, eventually ending in some final unknown condition.
Conditions that prevailed when life was getting going on Earth may be speculative but they are at least plausible. We can rule out life on Earth working in the absence of liquid water and outside the temperature range where water is in liquid form and so on. We have a panoply, nay a plethora of living organisms (bacteria and Archaea) that are still living in ways suggested by fossil evidence from nearly four billion years ago.
What we see most is that an RNA replicator appears, then some form of chemical (not Darwinian) evolution occurs, which sets off the glorious and inevitable climb to modern cell. You can sit through any number of lectures by Szostak or Joyce or Sutherland, and discover this pattern of argumentation for yourself. What we virtually never hear about are the actual steps where a description-based replicator (an actual known entity) is specified by a dynamic replicator.
You lost me on "description-based replicator (an actual known entity) is specified by a dynamic replicator". But you can explain if you wish, I hope.
This conundrum can be put into perspective by a single question: Aminoacyl tRNA synthetase (aaRS) play one of the critical roles in establishing the description-based system. These are complex proteins that are specified from encoded memory. They did not always exist on earth, which implies that there was once (at some point in the past) the very first time that an aaRS that was successfully synthesized from memory and went on to serve its function. Regardless of what you believe may have come before that event occurred, at that point in time, how many of the other aaRS constraints has to be in place?
So is the conundrum "How did aaRSs evolve?"
As opposed to completely untethered speculation, this type of question takes us from a known condition and asks how we might get there from the proposed explanation. I think it might be a good place to begin your challenge. What is your answer?
To how did aaRSs evolve? I don't know. Fred Hickson
Continuing with UB at 354
I have argued for a good long time that there is a strong design inference in biology taken directly from the recorded history of science and experiment. If you’ve followed my comments as you suggest you have, then you should be familiar with the details of that inference. You surely also know that this design inference is comprised of generally unambiguous and uncontroversial lines of evidence.
It all depends what you mean by "a strong design inference". There is no question that species are designed. Golden moles have the ability to live in the Namib Desert by swimming in sand. Should the environment of the Namib change: wetter, colder, hotter (or drier to the extent there was not enough moisture for their normal prey to survive) they would be extinct. The environment designs and I have no problem to extending that idea of the Universe to act as the designer's designer. But that is a religious or philosophical stance, not a scientific one where the default is "we don't know".
By this I mean, as an example, in 1948 did John Von Neumann give a series of lectures where he presented the logical requirements of an autonomous self-replicator with open-ended potential? There is only one reasonable answer to that question. The answer is “yes”. The answer is not “no”.
Well, my answer would have been "I don't know" because I have no idea what John van Neumann said in 1948. I don't see any reason to dispute your claim.
Further, were the fundamental parts of Von Neumann’s prediction then found inside the cell, one by one, such as a sequence of memory tokens, a set of constraints to establish what those tokens specify, a set of descriptions of those constraints encoded within the sequence, thereby enabling other descriptions to cause and bring about the critical functions of copying, control, and construction? Can a list of dates, researchers, and experiments be taken from the literature to demonstrate this confirmation? Again, the only reasonable answer to this question is “yes”. The answer is not “no”. As just one example among countless others, a Nobel Laureate who was on the ground at the time and playing a significant role in the first discoveries of the genome has clearly made this exact connection.
So von Neumann' Wikpedia entry is an impressive read but the only part of his work that relates to biology I noticed was his Universal Constructor, which I see has its own Wikpedia entry.
Von Neumann's goal... ...was to design a machine whose complexity could grow automatically akin to biological organisms under natural selection. He asked what is the threshold of complexity that must be crossed for machines to be able to evolve. His answer was to specify an abstract machine which, when run, would replicate itself.
Prescient modelling!
In 1955 did Francis Crick write a paper predicting a set of 20 proteins would be found working in the system, whose job it was to establish the relationships between the codons and the amino acids? The answer is “Yes”. The answer is not “No”. Was this prediction later confirmed by the work of Mahlon Hoagland and Paul Zamecnik in 1956-58? The answer is “Yes”.
Adaptor hypothesis as described in Wikipedia says yes.
In 1961 did Marshall Nirenberg and Heinrich Matthaei have to demonstrate the code in order to document and know it (i.e. it is not calculable from physical law)? “Yes”.
The poly-uracil to poly-phenylalanine experiment was iconic and one of the reasons I chose a science-based education. Not sure what you mean by "not calculable by physical law". The triple U to phenylalanine codon is indeed arbitrary.
Is the use of encoded symbols considered a universal correlate of intelligence? “Yes”.
By whom? Universal? Not sure.
If the scientists at SETI received a signal that contained encoded content, would it clearly infer the presence of a previously unknown intelligence? The answer is “Yes”. The answer is not “no”.
No. I don't agree at all and neither would SETI scientists either. First, SETI is looking for unusual radio signals from extra-terrestrial sources. So far they have been unsuccessful. When there is an unusual radio signal, then it can be examined to try and glean any purposeful information carried by the signal. Until then, nothing can be said as there are no such signals to work with.
The point I am making here should be clear.
Should be but...
The facts are uncontroversial. And all of this is clearly juxtaposed against its falsification, (which is every bit as unambiguous). Has anyone ever shown the rise of a symbol system by an unguided dynamic process?
How biological systems came into being is a mystery unsolved by science and no less of a mystery if we use the words "Intelligently Designed".
The answer to that question is “No”. The answer is not “Yes”.
Unclear as to whether you are making a specific claim. WRT biological systems, origins are still a mystery.
So if you have followed my argument, then let me ask the question: Is there a valid design inference in biology at the origin of life? Yes or no?
I already agree there is design in biology.
And note, I am not asking you to believe in any one thing or another, I am specifically asking about the state of known facts.
Good as I'm interested in scientific facts and hypotheses developed from them. Belief doesn't help or hinder scientific research and ideas. Fred Hickson
OK, I have a few minutes now, so let me try responding to Upright Biped's comment 354. As the software here is a bit cranky, I'll just paste sentences that appear to require a response and see how we go.
...you’ve already demonstrated that the RNA World (conceived as a simple RNA replicator that can serve two roles; as a catalyst and as a “carrier of information”) cannot actually specify anything from an encoded medium of information like the genome.*
We're talking about one molecule here. In RNA world, the genome is RNA, and the genome replicates by templating twice. The complementary strand, first replication, produces a copy of the original strand, second replication. The genome is a collection of sections that act as catalysts, and they need only be replicated once. There needs to be no specification. The copies are directly formed by physical templating.
You’ve asked me to participate in the infamous exercise where you are allowed to speculate anything you wish under any circumstances, while I am tasked with the job of having to prove that a thing did not happen (i.e. is not possible) in the deep unobservable past
Not really. I agree that the two properties possessed by all current living systems is the ability to replicate and the ability to metabolise and that neither ability can have evolved prior to the other. One has either to assume another process than evolution resulted in the two abilities emerging or assume that neither evolved from scratch but emerged from a simpler process where replication and metabolism were one process.
Given that this is also an exercise where you yourself get to determine (along with your own self-interests) whether or not I have met the challenge, I believe you should first get your feet wet (as the saying goes). We can test the fairness of your judgement in a matter that is effectively straight up or straight down.
"along with your own self-interests"? I think this is a fundamental difference between the way I look at life, the universe and everything compared to others posting here. Sure I'd like to be the one who is right but I prefer to be right, or at least on the right track. I have no particular dog in the fight of which idea, speculation, hypothesis wins out but I'd like it to fit the facts. I'll paste this and continue in a following comment. Fred Hickson
ET @372, From my perspective, the presumption of design doesn't have to be true for it to be pragmatically useful, which it has been. That's why the people who started the ID movement took no position on the source of design. They didn't need to. Lawrence Welk was an early theorist, but is was Don Ho who brought the tiny bubbles to life . . . which next evolved into lounge lizards. (smile) Also see https://www.livescience.com/29465-bubbles-science-foam-physics.html -Q Querius
KH, is it wishful thinking to infer that text in comments here in thread, on the strength of its FSCO/I, was designed? Think again, please without the strawman caricatures. KF kairosfocus
Yes, Q. As Gonzalez and Richards wrote in "the Privileged Planet":
In fact, no amount of evidence for apparent design could ever count as evidence of actual design. But if science is a search for the best explanation, based on the actual evidence from the physical world, rather than merely a search for the best materialistic or impersonal explanations of the physical world, how responsible is it to adopt a principle that makes one incapable of seeing an entire class of evidence?- page 270
It is difficult to deal with willful ignorance and blatant denial. And that is what we are up against. Lawernce Welk was the father of the bubble-world. :) ET
ET @370, Sorry, but it's basically hopeless. Some people don't understand because they don't want to understand. So, let's try some sarcasm instead . . . (woohoo) A little over a year ago, I announced that I successfully recreated the earliest life forms in a test tube! With some good connections, I deserve to get a Nobel prize for my work. Here are the steps: 1. By filling the test tube with water and shaking it vigorously, bubbles were formed spontaneously! In the early earth, a hot meteorite or some lava musta hit the sea, vaporizing the water releasing millions of bubbles. Also, the churning action of the sea due to wind and tidal action can also spontaneously form new bubbles abiogenetically. 2. These bubbles have a simple metabolism known as bullaphagy, when a larger bubble combines with a smaller one. Also, gases can pass into and out of the bubble due to thermo-capillary convection. 3. Bubbles exhibit reproduction when due to mechanical excitement, they split in half, forming exact copies of themselves–the earliest form of biological fission. 4. Bubble behavior, while simple in mechanistic terms compared with, let's say, a university professor, it's still a similar form of observable deterministic behavior including a strong desire to move upwards to the top and to go with the flow. 5. Bubble evolution musta occurred when random, dissolved amino acids were absorbed by trillions of bubbles over billions of years. While highly improbable to begin with, the chances for each successive step are still finite and, applying probability to the infinite multiverse and considering the anthropic principle, life is obviously inevitable. The evolutionary steps between a collection of air bubbles and a university professor are left as an exercise to the reader. They will eventually all be found and form a smooth continuum of Life on Earth! -Q Querius
Fred Hickson:
I should add perhaps that as far as I can see “The Deign Inference” is wishful thinking at best, so I see no future in picking that up.
Intelligent Design offers the only scientific explanation for our existence. That means the design inference is the only viable scientific inference. You and yours don't have a scientific explanation for our existence. It is yours that is pure wishful thinking. ET
368 messages for something nobody proved. :lol: It's like quarelling over the colour of a ghost's eyes. It's blue vs dark eyes fight except there is no ghost. Disneyland. PS:Even if darwinists are tempted to imagine RNA world in reality this hypothesis is equaly insane with DNA world hypothesis(now we have to imagine how a computer would work without any permanent memory hdd/stick usb/dvd ) . This system of cell/organism is irreducible complex and we still have to find more unknown processes and codes. Lieutenant Commander Data
UB, I'm puzzled by your last comment. What insult? Which questions? No time for more till later. Fred Hickson
Yes, however DNA was supposed to be more stable and that is why there is DNA based life. That premise is totally wrong. ET
ET, I think there is good chemical reason to note that if DNA tends to instability, so will the rather similar RNA. Just a thought. KF kairosfocus
. Fred, I have asked two questions. You can only give your preferred answer to the first, but cannot substantiate it. To the second, you have no effective answer, but need one. Are you familiar with ancient figures such as Sun Tzu? It appears that all of the possible positions in a competition have already been catalogued, very thoroughly. So far, we have a diversion and an insult. There is no doubt more where that came from. Upright BiPed
Again, for Fred to ignore: The 2015 Nobel Prize in Chemistry went to 3 researchers who discovered that DNA is very unstable. That led them to discover the proof reading and error correction required to counter that instability.
“Each day our DNA is damaged by UV radiation, free radicals and other carcinogenic substances, but even without such external attacks, a DNA molecule is inherently unstable. Thousands of spontaneous changes to a cell’s genome occur on a daily basis. Furthermore, defects can also arise when DNA is copied during cell division, a process that occurs several million times every day in the human body. The reason our genetic material does not disintegrate into complete chemical chaos is that a host of molecular systems continuously monitor and repair DNA. The Nobel Prize in Chemistry 2015 awards three pioneering scientists who have mapped how several of these repair systems function at a detailed molecular level. In the early 1970s, scientists believed that DNA was an extremely stable molecule, but Tomas Lindahl demonstrated that DNA decays at a rate that ought to have made the development of life on Earth impossible. This insight led him to discover a molecular machinery, base excision repair, which constantly counteracts the collapse of our DNA.” (The Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences https://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/2015/press.html)
DNA has to carry in its sequence the coding for the very proteins that keep it as a viable information carrier. Without that there cannot be any DNA based life. That means it also needs a coded information processing system. That is not available in any imagined RNA world. Fred will ignore that reality and prattle on. ET
ET, actually, it is not the case that negation always wins by default. Every argument is connected to a wider worldview and draws persuasive power from the associated plausibility structure. Each worldview has core first plausibles that frame everything else and are open to comparative difficulties analysis. Take for example the assertion by some that atheism is default and theists fail to make a case. The core problem is, why then is there a world, not utter non being? A world from non being fails for want of causal capability. If a world is, something always was [and as a key part or whole is independent of prior cause], the issue is, of what character. Retro causation and similar circles fail the world from non being test. Implicitly transfinite quasi-physical world succession fails as we saw here at UD over several years; transfinite stepwise traverse is an infeasible supertask. We are left with a beginning rooted in necessary being, where God is the most serious candidate. Surprise -- NOT -- these atheists are trying to reverse their unmet burden of proof to show that God, a serious candidate necessary being, is impossible of being as a euclidean square circle is. Serious candidate, unlike flying spaghetti monsters and similar ill informed attempted parodies. In fact, theists have epistemic right to point out, once a serious candidate and not impossible, actual. Actual, as NBs are framework to any possible world. Coming back to RNA etc, no one has shown empirical observation of such a world and there is a lot of information and implied polymer chemistry knowledge from nothing involved. Empty speculation dressed up in a lab coat. Failing, the Newton-Lyell test of adequately capable forces seen to currently be in operation. KF kairosfocus
Fred, I know all about double-stranded RNA. That has nothing to do with why ribosomes and translation machinery are needed for RNA replication. And the paper that you think refutes upright biped does no such thing. Clearly you didn't read the article. ET
ET, just a suggestion. Check double-stranded RNA. Also https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsomega.8b03689 For those wanting to know about hydrogen bonding in RNA Fred Hickson
Upright Biped, the dog ate my homework. I was in the middle of a preliminary reply when the open screen crashed and I lost half an hour and the will to start again from scratch. The issue possibly was using your long comment as blockquote and interspersing my replies. No matter as, just having spent some time site searching UD for stuff connected to upright biped and semiotic hypothesis, I seem to have hit a rich vein when comments and ideas were on a much broader spectrum here than they are today and I'd like now to avoid repeating points that have already been made I think you refined your various comments around 2011 into your hypothesis (I also recall something along the lines of Complexity Cafe but that seems to have disappeared) so for now, let me just ask are you still satisfied with the points you were making then, in which case I don't need to reinvent the wheel, or have you subsequently refined your hypothesis, even maybe produced a monograph that summarizes your hypothesis as you would defend it now. Cutting to the chase, I'm interested in querying your claim that the origin of DNA template and protein metabolism could not evolve, if that is indeed what you claim. If I have any expertise, it is in the field of biochemistry and it is the possible origins of biochemical systems that I'm interested in. I should add perhaps that as far as I can see "The Deign Inference" is wishful thinking at best, so I see no future in picking that up. Real life calls. Fred Hickson
I am not sure that Fred read the article that seems to have given him his high hopes HERE:
Ichihashi and his team developed an RNA molecule that encoded a replicase, which can make copies of RNA. But for the molecule to translate its own code, the scientists needed to add something more: ribosomes and other gene translation machinery that they borrowed from the common gut bacteria Escherichia coli. They embedded the machinery inside droplets and added them to a mixture of RNAs and raw materials. Then came years of tedious mixing and waiting. Their long-term experiment involved incubating their replication system at 37 degrees Celsius (the temperature of a human body or a hot summer’s day), adding new droplets with fresh translation systems, and stirring the mixture to induce replication. Every few days or so they analyzed RNA concentrations in the test tubes, and every week or so they froze samples from the latest mixture. Every half year or so, they sequenced large batches of the collected samples to see if the RNA had acquired new mutations and evolved into a new lineage.
This clearly isn't representative of any alleged RNA world. And it doesn't seem to make sense. What translation is required for RNA to replicate? Do ribosomes also make chains of nucleotides from a nucleotide template? ET
Upright Biped @354 and 355, Thank you for your incisive and informative posts! While clearly wasted on some people, it's definitely appreciated by others, myself included. And I get your anticipatory sarcasm, ET. -Q Querius
Indeed, ET. Let me see if I can respond with fewer, perhaps more focused. Later. Fred Hickson
Oh my. That is way too many words, upright biped. ;) ET
. Fred, As for your challenge, I believe the way forward is obvious. You’ve already made it abundantly clear that a dynamic RNA replicator does not have the capacity to specify anything from encoded memory. It doesn’t have the parts required to physically accomplish the task. This is a problem because it is from this state (of complete incapacity) that you must specify a system capable of specifying itself from an encoded memory — and that system must perpetuate itself over time. The system can be perpetuated by perpetuating the interpretive constraints in the system. This is implied because all the required descriptions are dependent on the constraints; until the constraints are established, the sequences of their descriptions cannot specify them. When the constraints are established and the sequences describe them, the system assumes a functional condition known as “semiotic closure”. In other words, the system must be self-referent in order to function. The way in which the constraints are perpetuated is by specifying them in an encoded inheritable memory. That memory must then be placed in the daughter to continue the replication. This is John Von Neumann’s “threshold of complication” - a point of organization, which above it leads to open-ended potential, but below it leads to degradation and failure. So the laundry list begins. You are going to have to establish a finite set of symbol tokens (a codon being three bases in length is a system parameter, not the product of a physical law). You are going to have to establish a set of interpretive constraints. You are going to have to establish minimal system commands, like start and stop (i.e. you have multiple discrete parts to describe/construct in order to successfully function). You are going to need a sequential memory that contains the individual sequences (individual descriptions) of all the interpretive constraints, as well as all the other individual descriptions entailed in the functions of copying, control, and construction. The individual portions of this sequential memory that cause these critical functions to occur, must be simultaneously coordinated with the portions of the sequence that describe the interpretive constraints (i.e. if you change any of the latter, it changes all of the former). And so on … This is what you must specify from an organization of RNA that cannot specify anything among alternatives. Upthread you mentioned something about perhaps misunderstanding the argument being made. I do believe you have misunderstood it. You apparently came here thinking I was making a chicken-and-egg argument about what came first, DNA, protein, etc. In actuality, my argument has little to do with the various classes of molecules. It is not that the classes of molecules don’t matter, they certainly do, but it is the systematic roles that they must perform that is critical to the physical success of the system. We can cut to the chase. OoL researchers (certainly RNA World proponents) invariably start their proposals with a presumed abiotic environment and then try to explain the steps going forward that would eventually result in a description-based replicator over some evolutionary period of time. This means they move from an unknown condition to another unknown condition, then to another unknown condition after that, so on and so forth, eventually ending in some final unknown condition. What we see most is that an RNA replicator appears, then some form of chemical (not Darwinian) evolution occurs, which sets off the glorious and inevitable climb to modern cell. You can sit through any number of lectures by Szostak or Joyce or Sutherland, and discover this pattern of argumentation for yourself. What we virtually never hear about are the actual steps where a description-based replicator (an actual known entity) is specified by a dynamic replicator. This conundrum can be put into perspective by a single question: Aminoacyl tRNA synthetase (aaRS) play one of the critical roles in establishing the description-based system. These are complex proteins that are specified from encoded memory. They did not always exist on earth, which implies that there was once (at some point in the past) the very first time that an aaRS that was successfully synthesized from memory and went on to serve its function. Regardless of what you believe may have come before that event occurred, at that point in time, how many of the other aaRS constraints has to be in place? As opposed to completely untethered speculation, this type of question takes us from a known condition and asks how we might get there from the proposed explanation. I think it might be a good place to begin your challenge. What is your answer? Upright BiPed
. Fred,
…“Show me how X is impossible” is an absurd challenge … No one has to demonstrate a negative. It is up to the people making the positive claim to support it … the ideology asserts the possibility, discards need to empirically show, and announces success … It’s rhetoric all the way down
It doesn’t appear that the “house” much cares for your proposition, or the sincerity you have in proposing it. In any case … in your own words you’ve already demonstrated that the RNA World (conceived as a simple RNA replicator that can serve two roles; as a catalyst and as a “carrier of information”) cannot actually specify anything from an encoded medium of information like the genome.* Why this is a problem for proponents of the RNA World is a topic we will certainly get into, but first… You’ve asked me to participate in the infamous exercise where you are allowed to speculate anything you wish under any circumstances, while I am tasked with the job of having to prove that a thing did not happen (i.e. is not possible) in the deep unobservable past. Given that this is also an exercise where you yourself get to determine (along with your own self-interests) whether or not I have met the challenge, I believe you should first get your feet wet (as the saying goes). We can test the fairness of your judgement in a matter that is effectively straight up or straight down. I have argued for a good long time that there is a strong design inference in biology taken directly from the recorded history of science and experiment. If you’ve followed my comments as you suggest you have, then you should be familiar with the details of that inference. You surely also know that this design inference is comprised of generally unambiguous and uncontroversial lines of evidence. By this I mean, as an example, in 1948 did John Von Neumann give a series of lectures where he presented the logical requirements of an autonomous self-replicator with open-ended potential? There is only one reasonable answer to that question. The answer is “yes”. The answer is not “no”. Further, were the fundamental parts of Von Neumann’s prediction then found inside the cell, one by one, such as a sequence of memory tokens, a set of constraints to establish what those tokens specify, a set of descriptions of those constraints encoded within the sequence, thereby enabling other descriptions to cause and bring about the critical functions of copying, control, and construction? Can a list of dates, researchers, and experiments be taken from the literature to demonstrate this confirmation? Again, the only reasonable answer to this question is “yes”. The answer is not “no”. As just one example among countless others, a Nobel Laureate who was on the ground at the time and playing a significant role in the first discoveries of the genome has clearly made this exact connection. In 1955 did Francis Crick write a paper predicting a set of 20 proteins would be found working in the system, whose job it was to establish the relationships between the codons and the amino acids? The answer is “Yes”. The answer is not “No”. Was this prediction later confirmed by the work of Mahlon Hoagland and Paul Zamecnik in 1956-58? The answer is “Yes”. In 1961 did Marshall Nirenberg and Heinrich Matthaei have to demonstrate the code in order to document and know it (i.e. it is not calculable from physical law)? “Yes”. Is the use of encoded symbols considered a universal correlate of intelligence? “Yes”. If the scientists at SETI received a signal that contained encoded content, would it clearly infer the presence of a previously unknown intelligence? The answer is “Yes”. The answer is not “no”. The point I am making here should be clear. The facts are uncontroversial. And all of this is clearly juxtaposed against its falsification, (which is every bit as unambiguous). Has anyone ever shown the rise of a symbol system by an unguided dynamic process? The answer to that question is “No”. The answer is not “Yes”. So if you have followed my argument, then let me ask the question: Is there a valid design inference in biology at the origin of life? Yes or no? And note, I am not asking you to believe in any one thing or another, I am specifically asking about the state of known facts. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - *specify in this case means to specify among alternatives, which is the physical capacity created by the discontinuous system found inside the living cell. This is the property that enables the system to function as it does. A codon is a physical token of memory. Any given codon that specifies any particular amino acid could alternatively specify any other particular amino acid, because the system itself does not physically determine which amino acid is being specified based on the dynamic properties of the codon. Science most definitely recognizes this phenomenon. In the scientific literature there are authors who will write about the “arbitrary” or “frozen accident” nature of the genetic code; others have described the codon as “quiescent” — meaning that they specify a particular amino acids, but are quite dormant and inactive. The simple fact that researchers compete among each other for ever-newer ideas as to why particular codons specify particular amino acids is an unrequested testament to the observed reality of the issue. Furthermore, as we all know, the system was successfully predicted to be based on encoded symbolic memory. In short, the gene system is a genuine symbol system; and as such, a dynamic relationship between a token and its referent is not fundamental to the operation of the system. Freedom from that dynamic limitation, is however, fundamental to that success. Upright BiPed
ET @352, This is a fool's errand. Here's why I think so. Even after providing Fred Hickson evidence from a cellular biologist that 20 cm long hydra do in fact exist, Fred Hickson was unwilling to acknowledge that he was wrong and abandon his skepticism to my original claim that I grew them in a high school Biology class. How much less likely is it that he will ever admit his misperceptions regarding RNA and ribozymes? I really don't understand why anyone claiming to know anything about science is so closed-minded and unreceptive to learning. But it is what it is. -Q Querius
You're not quite getting this, Fred. There isn't any evidence for any RNA world. And the RNA world is a precursor to DNA and proteins only in your itty-bitty mind. Metabolizing? That's just another word that you clearly don't understand. ET
You're not quite getting this, ET. RNA world is a precursor to both DNA and proteins. Before DNA and proteins, there was RNA doing both jobs because it's emergent properties allow it to do both jobs, not as well as DNA and proteins do their jobs now but well enough for there to be metabolizing and reproducing entities who had a clear field, an empty niche, nothing but themselves to compete against. Fred Hickson
Fred Hickson:
Ribozymes point out that you are incorrect.
No, they do not. Proteins are much more than enzymes.
The point is that RNA (such as the essential element in ribosomes) can and do act as catalysts.
I never said otherwise. The smallest such ribozyme is 5 nucleotides. # of which are the active sight. Very, very limited.
I heartily concede proteins are better, but in RNA world proteins have not yet been born,...
What RNA world? We are still waiting for any evidence for such a thing.
... RNA doesn’t have to do the job better than proteins, it only needs to be better than nothing.
Proteins have many different jobs. Jobs that RNAs cannot do. And there isn't any evidence for any RNA world. So, your argument can't even get started, really. ET
And nothing would work without the complementary base pairing that depends on the emergent properties of... The hydrogen bond. ;) Fred Hickson
RNAs cannot do the work of proteins.
Ribozymes point out that you are incorrect. The point is that RNA (such as the essential element in ribosomes) can and do act as catalysts. I heartily concede proteins are better, but in RNA world proteins have not yet been born, RNA doesn't have to do the job better than proteins, it only needs to be better than nothing. Incremental steps, ET, incremental steps. Fred Hickson
Lieutenant Commander Data @346, And the ability to store and process data (i.e. stimuli) is also designed using information. Speaking of which, I'm reminded to post this again for the benefit of newcomers here: Vlatko Vedral is a professor of Physics at the University of Oxford who specializes in quantum theory and whose research papers are widely cited expresses the concept this way:
The most fundamental definition of reality is not matter or energy, but information–and it is the processing of information that lies at the root of all physical, biological, economic, and social phenomena.
This is fascinating! -Q Querius
Fred Hickson But what is found in cytoplasm today has not always existed.
Fred "the hydrogen bond" Hickson. :lol:
Kairosfocus The point is, the ideology asserts the possibility, discards need to empirically show and announces success. KF
Whatever story darwinists tell they can't escape from the code problem . Without stored information (in DNA ) to be accessed "at will" by many different processes(also coded) there is no organisation , no synchronisation to start the process of division(how would happen the division process if there is no genetic information to be "divided" :) ,no proofreading, no repair , in one word : no life. We talk about what colour have an unicorn seen by Darwin. Lieutenant Commander Data
. . . and ET scores! The crowd goes wild. -Q Querius
RNAs cannot do the work of proteins. So this:
Then ask yourself what role they could play in RNA world, where RNAs do the work of proteins.
is dishonest. RNAs do the work of, wait for it, RNAs. ET
No one has to demonstrate a negative. It is up to the people making the positive claim to support it. Failure to do so is most often as negative as it gets. And there isn't any evidence for any RNA world. You cannot provide any evidence for one. No one has. And then there is Spiegelman's Monster.
You know what aminoacyl tRNA synthetases do, I presume.
Yes, they have very specific functions.
Then ask yourself what role they could play in RNA world, where RNAs do the work of proteins.
First, I need to see the evidence for any RNA world. Then I have to see evidence that such a world get around Spiegelman's Monster. Especially since its existence confirms what we already know- nature tends towards the path of least resistance. Simple is best. Rocks are OK. Molecules doing nothing but existing is OK. Your imagination is not evidence. And the 2015 Nobel Prize in Chemistry was awarded to researchers who all but proved that DNA based life is impossible without the DNA coding for the very proteins it needs to remain as a viable (coded) information carrier. ET
It seems that an RNA world is deeply flawed, useless without aaRS molecules. I suppose Fred Hickson will next ask us to believe in an aaRS world instead.
This makes no sense, especially in relation to anything I wrote. You know what aminoacyl tRNA synthetases do, I presume. Then ask yourself what role they could play in RNA world, where RNAs do the work of proteins. Fred Hickson
<William Murray
“Show me how X is impossible” is an absurd challenge.
Unless I misunderstand what Upright Biped is claiming, he is equal to that challenge. Anyway, science is full of claims that processes will always or never happen, when circumstances are clearly defined. Water always runs downhill, water never runs uphill, what's the difference? Fred Hickson
Upright Biped @327, Thank you for taking the time to write an excellent, detailed response.
In short, the systematic capacity of mRNA to carry the specification of an amino acid does not stem from the structure of the RNA, but from the structure of a separate molecule — a non-holonomic constraint, aaRS.
It seems that an RNA world is deeply flawed, useless without aaRS molecules. I suppose Fred Hickson will next ask us to believe in an aaRS world instead. William J Murray @337,
FH set this up by positioning himself as only having to show X is a bare possibility and UB’s burden is to show X impossible. Mind-boggling.
Great point! It's rhetoric all the way down. Kairosfocus @339, Well said. In other words, science fantasy. -Q Querius
The point is, the ideology asserts the possibility, discards need to empirically show and announces success. KF kairosfocus
Fred can't show there is any possibility, though. He will make UB's point. ET
ET, I realize this, but even given one arguendo, so what? You can even give a non-IDer every single, individual part from a functioning organic entity, like a bacteria. Now what? Put the parts together and bring it to life. They can't even begin to do that, and that's giving them everything they need without requiring any explanation. It's an exercise in a futile attempt to avoid the obvious, demonstrated by the challenge "show me X is impossible." FH set this up by positioning himself as only having to show X is a bare possibility and UB's burden is to show X impossible. Mind-boggling. William J Murray
William- Fred can't demonstrate the existence of any RNA world. ET
Fred Hickson said:
My challenge is to propose the steps that could have taken RNA world to DNA-protein world. Your challenge, should you wish to accept it, is to show no path is possible.
"Show me how X is impossible" is an absurd challenge. C'mon, man. UB's doesn't have to show that such steps are impossible; they may be possible. Bare possibility is not an explanation for anything. The question is, even given an RNA world, how likely is the unguided (by intelligence) acquisition of those steps that end up with a functioning, physically-instantiated semiotic system? William J Murray
Fred Hickson:
you may have missed my point. In a RNA world scenario there is no protein, the equivalent work is done by ribozymes.
There isn't any evidence for any RNA world. Why do you ignore that reality? And without proteins you don't have a living organism.
My challenge is to propose the steps that could have taken RNA world to DNA-protein world.
You can't demonstrate the existence of any RNA world. So, you lost. There isn't any link from RNA to DNA based life. So, you lost, again. In the 1990s a new problem was uncovered:
“Each day our DNA is damaged by UV radiation, free radicals and other carcinogenic substances, but even without such external attacks, a DNA molecule is inherently unstable. Thousands of spontaneous changes to a cell’s genome occur on a daily basis. Furthermore, defects can also arise when DNA is copied during cell division, a process that occurs several million times every day in the human body. The reason our genetic material does not disintegrate into complete chemical chaos is that a host of molecular systems continuously monitor and repair DNA. The Nobel Prize in Chemistry 2015 awards three pioneering scientists who have mapped how several of these repair systems function at a detailed molecular level. In the early 1970s, scientists believed that DNA was an extremely stable molecule, but Tomas Lindahl demonstrated that DNA decays at a rate that ought to have made the development of life on Earth impossible. This insight led him to discover a molecular machinery, base excision repair, which constantly counteracts the collapse of our DNA.” (The Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences https://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/2015/press.html)
The consequences are huge. You can't have DNA based life without an existing suite of specialized proteins that need to be coded in the DNA!!! Now I am sure that you will ignore that and prattle on because that is what you do. ET
. I appreciate the candor. It is late. Too late to comment. Upright BiPed
Ribozymes do not replace aaRS. You have your parts mixed up.
We both need to be more careful with clarification. The job of aaRSs did not exist in RNA world. The replicating RNA is the ribozyme. It doesn't need any translating etc, it is a direct copy produced by one process, replication. Translation, DNA to protein, comes later. My challenge is to propose the steps that could have taken RNA world to DNA-protein world. Your challenge, should you wish to accept it, is to show no path is possible. Fred Hickson
It's late for me so further detailed response will have to wait till morning but...
Fred, when an RNA replicates, the end result of that process is determined by the physical properties of the RNA. When an RNA provides catalytic activity, again the end result of that process is determined by the physical properties of the RNA (acting upon its reactant molecules). Both of those processes are measurable and reversible in principle. But when mRNA is used to specify a particular amino acid during gene expression, it is a discontinuous process and is non-reversible. While any and all of these processes must faithfully follow physical law, the fact of the matter is that the physical structure of the mRNA does not determine the end result — it does not determine which amino acid will be presented for binding inside the ribosome. The establishment of the codon-to-anticodon relationship is spatially and temporally independent of the anticodon-to-amino acid relationship. This is what gives the system the degrees of freedom it requires in order to function as it does, where it is able to specify a particular protein, as well as any variation of that protein. In short, the systematic capacity of mRNA to carry the specification of an amino acid does not stem from the structure of the RNA, but from the structure of a separate molecule — a non-holonomic constraint, aaRS.
I have no issue with this, even the "non-holonomic" which is strictly true as we are discussing (admittedly big) molecules, not robots. But what is found in cytoplasm today has not always existed. The origins of the systems we see are not all clearly evident from their current state The origin(s) remain speculative. Your point that the discontinuity between DNA acting purely as a template and protein acting in every other role (with those important and specific roles still played by RNA) is a very strong and effective one and would be even fatal but for the idea of simpler precursors. In an RNA world, with RNA playing both roles, there is no need for genetic codes or aminoacyl tRNA synthetases, as RNA only (only?) needs to replicate copies of itself. This reduces the challenge of chicken-and-egg from insoluble to a huge but not impossible one. Let me say, I've followed your progress in arguing for your "semiotic hypothesis" since, what - 2011?, and I think as you state it, it is a solid barrier I think also the core point is very simple, whether a precursor of an RNA world sidesteps your barrier. I think it does, though ten years or so ago, I didn't. Fred Hickson
. Fred, Two things: #1 The public is constantly told that RNA can carry the information in the genome as well as provide the catalytic activity of proteins. So the question was: ”What are the necessary physical conditions required for RNA to serve the role as a carrier of information like mRNA?” You indeed must have understood the question, since you yourself mentioned mRNA in your answer “mRNA isn’t a separate role”. So I am afraid it is not me that missed the point. #2 Ribozymes do not replace aaRS. You have your parts mixed up. Upright BiPed
Querius, I respond here as I have time. I don't respond to everything. The most egregious nonsense doesn't need a response. Take credit for the time I have spent on some of your comments, it's not personal. Fred Hickson
UB, you may have missed my point. In a RNA world scenario there is no protein, the equivalent work is done by ribozymes. Fred Hickson
. #312
UB: What are the necessary physical conditions required for RNA to serve the role as a carrier of information like mRNA? Fred: If an RNA replicates (and it does) and that molecule has catalytic activity (they can) mRNA isn’t a separate role
Fred, when an RNA replicates, the end result of that process is determined by the physical properties of the RNA. When an RNA provides catalytic activity, again the end result of that process is determined by the physical properties of the RNA (acting upon its reactant molecules). Both of those processes are measurable and reversible in principle. But when mRNA is used to specify a particular amino acid during gene expression, it is a discontinuous process and is non-reversible. While any and all of these processes must faithfully follow physical law, the fact of the matter is that the physical structure of the mRNA does not determine the end result — it does not determine which amino acid will be presented for binding inside the ribosome. The establishment of the codon-to-anticodon relationship is spatially and temporally independent of the anticodon-to-amino acid relationship. This is what gives the system the degrees of freedom it requires in order to function as it does, where it is able to specify a particular protein, as well as any variation of that protein. In short, the systematic capacity of mRNA to carry the specification of an amino acid does not stem from the structure of the RNA, but from the structure of a separate molecule — a non-holonomic constraint, aaRS. So if we recast your statement and include the missing context …
If an RNA replicates (based on the dynamic structure of the RNA) and if that RNA has catalytic activity (based on the dynamic structure of the RNA) then the message-carrying capacity of messenger RNA (which is not based on the dynamic structure of the RNA) is not a separate role from replication or catalytic activity.
… then hopefully the fundamental problem with the statement becomes evident. Upright BiPed
Querius, I don’t see much mileage in addressing your comment at 319. Too much straw.
Neat! I can add this one to my collection of trollbot evasions. In this case, it was to my "Here are some challenges that Darwinists always evade." Thank you for proving my point! -Q Querius
False accusations are much easier than actually forming an argument. And the blatant hypocrisy of claiming a strawman in the face of what Fred said -> If an RNA replicates (and it does) and that molecule has catalytic activity (they can) mRNA isn’t a separate role., is hilarious. As I have explained, there is so much straw in that one sentence. ET
Querius, I don't see much mileage in addressing your comment at 319. Too much straw. Fred Hickson
Fred/ Alan has a strange fixation with upright biped. Fred will be back when upright biped responds, again. ET
Lieutenant Commander Data and ET, Fred seems to have abandoned this conversation to start from scratch (!) with the same unsupported assertions in a more recent one. This is typical troll behavior. -Q Querius
Fred is clueless, people. This proves he doesn't have a clue:
If an RNA replicates (and it does) and that molecule has catalytic activity (they can) mRNA isn’t a separate role.
mRNA doesn't replicate nor is it a catalyst. mRNA is a coded information carrier. Fred will continue to ignore that reality and prattle on. Fred doesn't have any integrity. ET
The RNA World scenario is bad as a scientific hypothesis: it is hardly falsifiable and is extremely difficult to verify due to a great number of holes in the most important parts. To wit, no one has achieved bona fide self-replication of RNA which is the cornerstone of the RNA World. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3495036/ Imagining the origin of the largest rRNA (23S rRNA 2,904 nucleotide long in E. coli) that is the key component in peptidyl transferase it's believing that pigs can fly . Darwinists need a miracle therefore they need God to prove their materialist hypothesis. :lol: Also RNA world could not explain the emergence of the genetic code. Lieutenant Commander Data
What amazes me is just how many miracles Darwinism relies on. - Miracles of the formation of large molecules for no reason. - Miracles for the persistence of such molecules defying entropy. - Miracles of the ability for the large molecules to replicate for no reason. - Miracles for the molecules to reprogram themselves randomly and for error correcting. - Miracles of semi-permeable membranes to form spontaneously for no reason. - Miracles for the insane complexity of interlocking chemical cycles that form spontaneously. - Miracles for ratcheting up complexity despite it's never ever being directly observed. - Miracles of convergent, parallel, recurrent evolution. - Miracles of rapid evolution such as the Cambrian explosion. And everything always happens under a magical black cape of deep time, professed ignorance, and solemn assurances. The magic incantation of "mighta-coulda-musta" is pronounced and the speculations miraculously turn into fact! Here are some challenges that Darwinists always evade: 1. Since the LD 50 /30 of bacteria is very high, expose them to enough ionizing radiation to cause a high level of random mutations that simulate the background radiation of millions of years. For example, D. radiodurans is an extremophile with an LD 50 /30 of ~500,000 rads while current levels of background radiation are about 0.05 rads per year. So blasting a large population of these bacteria with 500,000 rads is roughly simulates of the mutation rate of 10 million years. Doing this 100 times, will simulate about a billion years of evolution. However, it's believed that background radiation was about 10x when life first appeared on earth, so maybe zap them 500 times. Doing this carefully should yield chihuahuas and chickadees. 2. Subject a large population of bacteria to mechanical disintegration--make them into a bacteria smoothie. Next, subject the bio-smoothie to a range of permutations of ionizing radiation, various gases, electrical discharges, heat, cold, and loud heavy metal. How long will it take for these components to evolve back into at least bacteria? 3. Simulate evolution on a computer by randomly mutating an executable and subject it to some natural selection criteria that includes self-replication. On a fast computer, one should be able to force billions and billions of random mutations. Every few minutes run the executable, eliminating any that crash. After the equivalent of 4.5 billion years of evolution, you should then have an amazing new program! 4. Disassemble a mechanical wristwatch and put it into a paint can. Mount the paint can into a paint shaker and let it run until it reassembles some of its components. Glue the correctly reassembled parts together and put them all back into the paint shaker. Repeat until the entire watch is reassembled. -Q Querius
Great. I'll get the popcorn ready. Fred is already claiming victory and he doesn't even understand the argument. ET
I have a monster day tomorrow and another on Friday. If it is okay with you, I will try to answer your #312 before then, and will otherwise try to make myself available to comment over the weekend.
Great. I'll keep some time spare. Fred Hickson
Fred Hickson:
If an RNA replicates (and it does) and that molecule has catalytic activity (they can) mRNA isn’t a separate role.
What? mRNA neither replicates nor is it a catalyst. mRNA REPRESENTS amino acids. mRNA is the SYMBOL. Where is the SYMBOL in your RNA world? ET
. I understand completely. I have a monster day tomorrow and another on Friday. If it is okay with you, I will try to answer your #312 before then, and will otherwise try to make myself available to comment over the weekend. Upright BiPed
Fred Hickson:
My point is that your whole “semiosis” argument fails on the existence of RNA and its dual role as replicator and catalyst.
That doesn't follow. There isn't any evidence for any RNA world. DNA based life requires an existing suite of specialized proteins and a specific coded information processing system. And there isn't any connection between RNA being a replicator and a catalyst and the genetic code. You clearly don't understand the argument or the evidence. ET
I'm not in an ideal place and time for commenting currently. I was just pleased to catch you. There is absolutely no rush. Fred Hickson
...what are the necessary physical conditions required for RNA to serve the role as a carrier of information like mRNA?
If an RNA replicates (and it does) and that molecule has catalytic activity (they can) mRNA isn't a separate role. Fred Hickson
. Fred, I don’t propose “a chicken-and-egg conundrum of whether DNA as template and replicator could evolve before protein as catalysts”. Fred … what are the necessary physical conditions required for RNA to serve the role as a carrier of information like mRNA? Edit : Fred I don’t want you to think I am ignoring the article you suggested. We will certainly get to it, but your first comment seems so far off the mark that I think we should first try to get a little closer to the target before we go into it. Upright BiPed
There's another thread making the same point. https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/nature-article-origin-of-life-theory-involving-rna-protein-hybrid-gets-new-support/#comment-757333 Fred Hickson
Well, the facts about RNA are what they are. RNA world as a precursor to your chicken-and-egg conundrum of whether DNA as template and replicator could evolve before protein as catalysts or vice versa solves the problem. ETA excuse edit. Fat fingers and phone. Fred Hickson
. Fred, Being able to play a “dual role” (as a catalyst and as an information carrier like mRNA) implies that there are certain conditions that enable the RNA to play those two roles. What are the necessary physical conditions for RNA to be an information carrier like mRNA? Upright BiPed
. Oh okay, Fred. How do you figure that that? Upright BiPed
Hi UB, My point is that your whole "semiosis" argument fails on the existence of RNA and its dual role as replicator and catalyst. Fred Hickson
JVL and FH, UB is clearly right on the merits. KF PS, JVL you have been repeatedly told that complex specific, configuration based function is first observed then on the sign design is inferred. You have even been given further examples. The Fib sequence or related matters such as phi or spirals etc might show up as a case where this being evidently a compositional principle [shape of Parthenon] and not either a myth or a mechanical constraint then it would point to art. Rounding periods between quasar pulses to seconds or similar population boom bust numbers do not point to any detachable specification. Flipping 500 coins and seeing within fluctuation h-T ratios with no evident pattern looks like chance, but an ASCII message in good English would be design. And more. kairosfocus
JVL:
You need to learn to deal with the actual data and not just your suppositions.
Said the person who is afraid of the actual data...
I hear from you guys that you fully support what Dr Dembski wrote in his monograph.
Why are you so focused on that ONE article? You know he has written more than that. And those other books and articles are also very relevant. Comment 141. ET
Fred Hickson:
RNA catalyst and replicator drives coach and horses through UB’s “semiotic hypothesis”.
What does that mean? Is imbecilic gibberish the best you have? BTW, semiotics is the observation-> mRNA codons REPRESENT amino acids. That is the epitome of a code. RNAs producing RNAs does nothing with respect to explaining the genetic code. ET
JVL- comment 141. The design threshold is less than 500 bits- per Dembski. ET
. There is no need for any concern Fred. JVL made his own bed. And as I have already responded to you, if you have something to say to me, then by all means, say it. Upright BiPed
RNA catalyst and replicator drives coach and horses through UB's "semiotic hypothesis". Fred Hickson
He's back and as full of charm as ever! Fred Hickson
. That was truly quite juvenile, JVL. Spitting at the wind. Rocking back and forth in your seat. Here are a couple of tidbits for you: #1. The undemonstrated beliefs of investigators do not invalidate recorded history or experimental result. Full stop. You, of course, know this very well because you yourself have made this very point on these pages. This means you know it to be a logical fallacy, yet it is the very thing you use to claim that the design inference as invalid. #2. The use of language in a system of symbols is a universal correlate of intelligence. Full stop. And here again, you know this to be true, given that you enthusiastically endorsed that exact reasoning in your own design inference from outer space. And yet, when confronted with the contradiction in your position, you immediately deploy an ad hoc double-standard to avoid the design inference in ID — even going so far as to summersault into complete incoherence just to avoid the obvious. And yet, you still want to stay here and attack design proponents over their use of logic and reason. It is truly anyone’s guess as to why you think you should get a pass on the things you say. It’s as if you believe the contradictions that enable your reasoning are simply not supposed to matter. It’s as if they are supposed to off-limits; not to be subject to examination by the people you are here to criticize. It’s as if you want to say “I’ve answered that criticism by repeating the fallacy, so you cannot question me about it any more”. What a grotesque privilege you believe I owe you. I can tell you one thing for sure. As long as you give yourself permission to attack the messenger for pointing out the flaws in your reasoning, you should not expect to get a pass from me Upright BiPed
JVL How long are you going to stalk me?
Poor JVL always somebody persecute you because you tell the truth as it is. :))) One day you might understand that a number is a coded symbol that stand for something else. A convention decided by an intelligence(as opposed to a frozen natural law ). Lieutenant Commander Data
Upright BiPed: You’ve addressed the logical fallacy in your reasoning — that the undemonstrated beliefs of authority figures invalidate recorded history and experimental result?? Where? What’s your answer? Is it not just a repetition of the fallacy itself? You know I've said my piece. I know I've said my piece. What else do you want me to say? How many times are you going to follow me around this site and ask me to repeat my reasons again? How long are you going to stalk me? You need to stop your weird and strange fixation on what I've said. You need to learn that some things you cannot change. You need to grow up. You must think my particular objections and stance are dangerous to your beliefs or you wouldn't persecute me as you do. Unless you're personally fascinated by me like some weird teenager. Which is it? Why do you have to keep pestering me? Why should you care so much? Because i pointed out that one of your heroes had not actually supported your interpretation of their work? Does that hurt? Had no one actually pointed that out before? Why didn't you admit that to yourself before? You need to learn to deal with the actual data and not just your suppositions. JVL
Since I’ve already addressed those issues several times I’m wondering why you keep asking me to do it again.
You’ve addressed the logical fallacy in your reasoning — that the undemonstrated beliefs of authority figures invalidate recorded history and experimental result?? Where? What’s your answer? Is it not just a repetition of the fallacy itself? Upright BiPed
Upright BiPed: You sometimes seem to intimate that it is somehow impolite or unsavory to keep asking you about your past comments here. Then I think, well, that can’t be true, since you are here now demanding a bunch of non-mathematicians justify what a mathematician wrote more than a decade ago. I hear from you guys that you fully support what Dr Dembski wrote in his monograph. So, reasonably, I ask if you've actually used it and if you can provide an example of it being used. It's really down to you: do you think that Dr Dembski's work is a useful and useable tool for design detection or isn't it? If it is then you should be able to provide examples of how it it used and is useful. Perfectly reasonable questions. AND, if you can't answer those questions you can always say so. With that in mind, would you please unscramble this mess (after all, this is your current thinking): Since I've already addressed those issues several times I'm wondering why you keep asking me to do it again. Is it because you are so enamoured of my deathless prose that you just want to have another example to fawn over? Is it because you didn't get what I've already said many times? Is it because you're just a jerk who thinks it's funny making me repeat myself? Is it because you think I'm going to eventually fade in the face of your continual onslaught of intellectually challenging queries? I just don't get it. I've got nothing new to add. Unlike you, I'm not following you around this site demanding that you capitulate; I've accepted the fact that we're going to disagree on some things and I'm happy with that. You are not. I guess you just can't get over the fact that someone disagrees with you. Good luck with that. This may be a point where you need to remember the reason I keep putting your own words back in front of you is because of your intent to stay here and berate ID proponents even after your position (that there is no valid evidence of design in biology) has been refuted — refuted to the point that you must rely on logical fallacies, double-standards, (and digs me of course) in order to maintain your position. If you've already invalidated my view why do you insist on following me around and saying it over and over and over again? Are you afraid that someone might take me seriously? Might think that I have a point worth considering? Might forget that the great Upright BiPed has another view? Which they could express without being so personally directed? You might also want to remember that you were never asked to believe ID, but only to acknowledge the validity of the history and experimental results behind the inference. You chose not to. I agreed with all of Dr Pattee's work. But since he did not endorse ID I didn't take that step. You know he didn't endorse ID. You cannot find a place where he did endorse ID. I've found at least one time when he criticised ID. The semiotics community has not come out in support of ID. That is a fact. The SETI researchers have not come out in support of ID. That is a fact. You want to assume and extend what they have said and support so that it supports your beliefs and views. But they have not done so. Until you learn to live with that AND find out why they have not extended their support you are always just going to be on the fringe of the science. And it's not just down to them all being scared of losing their pensions. That is a fallacy. NO ONE has expressed that feor or brought that up. That's just you trying to defend your position by making something up. If you want to do science then work with the real data, not the made up data. Work with the real research, the published work, the actual statements made by the researchers. Do not suppose and guess what you think they really meant. Just deal with what they actually said. And didn't say. JVL
.
While I am honoured and flattered that you stalk me about this site
JVL, You sometimes seem to intimate that it is somehow impolite or unsavory to keep asking you about your past comments here. Then I think, well, that can’t be true, since you are here now demanding a bunch of non-mathematicians justify what a mathematician wrote more than a decade ago. With that in mind, would you please unscramble this mess (after all, this is your current position):
JVL: I would not be surprised at all if we find electromagnetic evidence of intelligent beings in other solar systems UB: How would we know if we found “electromagnetic evidence of intelligent beings”? What would that be? JVL: Something like in the movie Contact. A signal that’s very clearly NOT produced by unguided processes. A signal which, after inspection, was shown to have compressed data. UB: So you accept encoded symbolic content as a universal inference to the presence of an unknown intelligence in one domain, while immediately denying that same physical evidence in another domain. Why the double standard? JVL: Because there is no plausible designer available. (…) And after you are asked “Then who is the designer in your signal from space”, (suddenly realizing that you cannot answer that question without clearly demonstrating the double-standard in your reasoning), you reply: JVL: There isn’t one. (thud)
This may be a point where you need to remember the reason I keep putting your own words back in front of you is because of your intent to stay here and berate ID proponents even after your position (that there is no valid evidence of design in biology) has been refuted — refuted to the point that you must rely on logical fallacies, double-standards, (and digs me of course) in order to maintain your position. You might also want to remember that you were never asked to believe ID, but only to acknowledge the validity of the history and experimental results behind the inference. You chose not to. Upright BiPed
Upright BiPed: You’d rather skip over the blatant logical fallacies you use to deny the documented history and experimental results behind design inference? You’d rather skip over your enthusiastic endorsement of the exact design inference that you deny to ID? While I am honoured and flattered that you stalk me about this site, interrupting conversations I am having with other people to bring up the same topics we have already discussed I'm not sure what else or new I can bring to our previous conversations. Would you like me to send a signed photograph? I am really interested in your view of the topic I was actually discussing with ET and Kairosfocus if you'd care to offer your view. JVL
. JVL, In 1948, John Von Neumann gave a series of lectures where he used Alan Turing’s 1933 machine to predict the necessary logical conditions required for autonomous open-ended self-replication. The prediction required (among other things) two sets of objects: a sequence of symbols and a set of encoded constraints that would establish what the symbols represented within the system. This arrangement would enable the use of machine language to specify a system of three critical functions — construction, copying, and control. In 1953, Francis Crick and James Watson discovered the necessary sequence structure of Von Neumann’s prediction, using an image (Image #51) produced by Rosalind Franklin. Later, working with Sydney Brenner in 1955, Crick predicted that a second set of objects (a set of 20 proteins) would be found working in the system, and it would be the role of this second set of objects to establish what the genetic symbols were to represent within the system. That second set of objects (aaRS) were discovered in 1956-58 by Paul Zamecnik and Mahlon Hoaglon, not only confirming Crick’s “adapter hypothesis”, but also Von Neumann’s prediction that the association between symbol and referent would be established by an encoded “quiescent” description. Then in 1961, Crick and Brenner demonstrated that the genetic symbol (the codon) was indeed three bases in length, and later that same year Marshall Nirenberg established the first symbolic relationship within the gene, setting off a race to decipher the entire Genetic Code, which was completed in 1966. This represents a complete confirmation of Von Neumann’s prediction, and has been widely-acknowledged. As a later extension of that confirmation, the genetic symbol system was analyzed using the language of physics and described as a system of “rate-independent control of a rate-dependent process”, establishing the necessary “epistemic cut” (Von Neumann), and requiring “semiotic closure” in order to function. This is all well documented in the literature. The design inference is thus a matter of historical record. And you say its invalid. Since you reason that undemonstrated belief invalidates historical and experimental facts, can you explain to us what metric you used to determine exactly when belief invalidates experimental result? Upright BiPed
.
If you’d rather dredge over past conversations well, I guess I can do that, but I’d rather address the current topic on the table.
You’d rather skip over the blatant logical fallacies you use to deny the documented history and experimental results behind design inference? You’d rather skip over your enthusiastic endorsement of the exact design inference that you deny to ID? No doubt. Upright BiPed
Upright BiPed: At the moment the question is: can anyone show me how to use the test laid out in Dr Dembski's 2005 monograph? I've provided some mathematical sequences to test and offered to provide others but no one has stepped up to deal with those. I've asked for examples of how that test has actually been used in the past and no one has stepped up. Perhaps you'd like to fill in some of those gaps? Can you show me how to apply Dr Dembski's test or not? If you'd rather dredge over past conversations well, I guess I can do that, but I'd rather address the current topic on the table. JVL
. JVL, You have been given an inference to design in biology that you cannot refute. In fact, you were eventually forced to agree to the historical and experimental facts that support the inference. But you chose to deny that inference based on the use of a common logical fallacy. You denied the inference not based on the actual experimental facts and data that researchers have documented in the literature, but by the undemonstrated beliefs of authorities. You actually reasoned that recorded history and documented experimental results are invalidated by the mere speculation of authority figures. When this was brought to your attention, you simply repeated the fallacy, and can now do no more than repeat it again and again. This has all been documented in excruciating detail on these pages over a long period of time. The exchanges where you launch your fallacies have been copied and pasted (and put back in front of you) dozens of times. In fact, you have basically become is a lab rat - a demonstration - on how an educated ID critic repeatedly avoids and denies documented science and history that they cannot even begin to refute — universal physical evidence that is not even controversial. You then made matters worse by enthusiastically endorsing the exact same design inference that you completely deny to ID. This is the double-standard fallacy we’ve talked about many many times. And here again, when confronted with this, you became patently dishonest - suggesting that you said things you never said. You were even willing to blow up your entire (enthusiastic) reasoning — just to avoid having to deal with the obvious contradictions you put on the table. And all along, you attack me in order to divert attention away from the incoherence in your reasoning. You admit to none of this. You admit to none of this, no matter how many times your own words are copied and pasted and put back in front of you. This is the lab rat demonstration – which you never fail, and will not fail the next time I put it in front of you (as we all will observe). If you respond to this comment with a defense of your reasoning, you will do it then. Upright BiPed
ET: It has been used and intelligent design was the result. I know it works. Well, can you show me some documentation of how and when it was used and hopefully the calculations made? If you can't just say so. JVL
No one cares what you think, JVL. No one. It has been used and intelligent design was the result. I know it works. And you don't have anything. So there really isn't any debate. ET
ET: Do it for yourself. Or read more from Dembski, Behe and Meyer. Why are you so hung up on Dembski’s paper on specification? It's a actual procedure that potentially could be used to detect design. But I don't think it's ever actually been used so I'm curious if anyone here can actually or has actually used it. I'd just like to see someone step through the calculations. If I do it you could accuse me of getting it wrong so I'd rather you or another ID proponent do it. And no, I will not play your childish games. Only losers think that science is a game and here you are. So far in this thread you have been proven to be a liar, an ignorant child and a clueless twit. One of the smartest ID proponent around proposed a testing tool for design and I'd like to know if anyone has used it or can use it. What's wrong with that? If you can't use it then just admit it, what's wrong with that? Why do you always have to get so abusive when someone starts asking serious questions? It's like you're afraid to answer honestly or something. I would think you'd be interested in seeing if the thing works or not. It seems to me that if it does it would give you a real objective leg up in the ongoing debate. JVL
Do it for yourself. Or read more from Dembski, Behe and Meyer. Why are you so hung up on Dembski's paper on specification? And no, I will not play your childish games. Only losers think that science is a game and here you are. So far in this thread you have been proven to be a liar, an ignorant child and a clueless twit. ET
ET: We infer living organisms were designed because we used it. Okay. I'd like to see how you used the formula from Dr Dembski's 2005 monograph to determine organisms were designed. I'm interested in the actual calculations. CONTEXT. Without the CONTEXT no one cares. Clearly you are just a moron. I don't understand the point of a test unless the context in which the thing be tested came about is unknown. But, I let it pass. Why don’t you shut up and stop acting like a belligerent infant? You clearly don’t know what you are talking about. And you have been exposed as an ignorant and petulant child. If I gave you a coin flip sequence like those used as examples by Dr Dembski in his monograph could you do the calculations, yes or no? JVL
JVL:
But you already think biological systems were intelligently designed so you’ll never use it for that.
You are clearly an imbecile. We infer living organisms were designed because we used it.
Fair or unbiased or random. That’s what I’m asking you to determine about the sequences I provided.
CONTEXT. Without the CONTEXT no one cares. Clearly you are just a moron.
So, you can’t use the test on biological systems because the whole point is to determine if intelligent agencies were involved!
We used it on living organisms. That is how and why we know they were intelligently designed. On the other hand you have nothing. No evidence. No science. And no methodology.
What if I gave you a coin flip sequence, just like what Dr Dembski used. Could you apply the test then?
Why don't you shut up and stop acting like a belligerent infant? You clearly don't know what you are talking about. And you have been exposed as an ignorant and petulant child. ET
ET: We apply it to biological organisms to DETERMINE HOW THEY CAME ABOUT- via intelligent design or blind and mindless processes. But you already think biological systems were intelligently designed so you'll never use it for that. Again, in the coin-toss scenario we apply Dembski’s methodology to see if that coin-toss was fair or not. Fair or unbiased or random. That's what I'm asking you to determine about the sequences I provided. It depends on the CONTEXT. Random or not is only when we know that intelligent agencies were involved and wanted to know if their involvement biased the results. So, you can't use the test on biological systems because the whole point is to determine if intelligent agencies were involved! Too funny. In the end you never actually use the test. What if I gave you a coin flip sequence, just like what Dr Dembski used. Could you apply the test then? JVL
JVL:
And surely the point of a test is to distinguish between what is actually random and what appears to be random. Isn’t that what Dr Dembski was addressing?
It depends on the CONTEXT. Random or not is only when we know that intelligent agencies were involved and wanted to know if their involvement biased the results. You may have read something he wrote. But you clearly did not understand it. ET
JVL:
What’s the point of proposing a test for complex, specified information, design, if you only apply it when you know how the thing came about?
You are one willfully ignorant infant. We apply it to biological organisms to DETERMINE HOW THEY CAME ABOUT- via intelligent design or blind and mindless processes. So, obviously you are just stupid and shouldn't be discussing this. And shut up. I have read more of Dembski's writings than you have. He NEVER proposes a case that is without context. He NEVER presents a numeric sequence and says guess/ determine the cause. Again, in the coin-toss scenario we apply Dembski's methodology to see if that coin-toss was fair or not. ET
ET: And coded messages can appear to be random. And surely the point of a test is to distinguish between what is actually random and what appears to be random. Isn't that what Dr Dembski was addressing? Clearly you cannot give an example of his using it in such a way. I guess you haven't read the monograph then. Where, in ANYTHING he has written, does he state it can be used as you are suggesting? I will tell you- he NEVER does. Where does he say it can't be used that way? In fact, does he not state that his test or method should be widely applicable to lots of situations? As does he not use simple, mathematical sequences as examples? What do you think Dr Dembski's test was for? If he intended it to be used then surely the examples he used would be the kind of things he intended it to be used for. Why else would they be examples? And when he uses it for coin tosses we know the CONTEXT. We know what he is trying to uncover. So, let me get this straight . . . you think you can only use Dr Dembski's test when you already know how a sequence was generated? What's the point of that? I'm sure that's not what he intended. I'm sure he was trying to propose a test that could be used when no clear generation was available. Again, what would be the point otherwise? JVL erected a strawman because he is ignorant and desperate. Then when he is exposed he just continues down the path to prove he just doesn’t care. Just think about it. What's the point of proposing a test for complex, specified information, design, if you only apply it when you know how the thing came about? There is no point in doing that. And I don't think that's what Dr Dembski was working towards. Since you don't seem able to follow through on his mathematics to see if his metric works then I understand why you would fall back to an argument which he clearly was trying to supersede. Again, what is the point of proposing a test if using the test supposes knowing how the pattern arose? I tell you what, why don't you suggest a situation where Dr Dembski's test could and should be applied. Make something up and let's see. And, why don't you actually address the sequences I put forward. Why don't you actually try and see if they were randomly generated or show some trace of design or complex, specified information. Or admit that you cannot do that. As any honourable person would do. Your call. JVL
JVL:
Where in Dr Dembski monograph does he state that only coin flip sequences are allowed?
Where, in ANYTHING he has written, does he state it can be used as you are suggesting? I will tell you- he NEVER does. And when he uses it for coin tosses we know the CONTEXT. We know what he is trying to uncover. JVL erected a strawman because he is ignorant and desperate. Then when he is exposed he just continues down the path to prove he just doesn't care. ET
JVL:
Funny that Dr Dembski used coin flipping as an example then.
CONTEXT is provided. And the check is to see if it was a fair coin toss. CONTEXT. And coded messages can appear to be random.
Which is the point of Dr Dembski’s test is it not?
It is not.
Look, Dr Dembski clearly designed his tool so it could be used against numerical sequences;
Clearly you cannot give an example of his using it in such a way. ET
Kairosfocus: coin flipping trains give binary sequences, if you do a simple coin flip of 500 coins and it comes up ascii message in English for 71 characters, head to Vegas before the hot streak fades. And this is a valid use as well you know, red herrings, strawmen and confusing clouds notwithstanding. Where in Dr Dembski monograph does he state that only coin flip sequences are allowed? Look, if you can't use Dr Dembski's tool on the sequences I provided then just say so. What's wrong with that? If there is a particular aspect or sub-section of his metric that you find confusing why not just bring that up and see if someone else can help with that? Earlier you gave a sequence you note I said looks like a population boom bust chain. It did and does. That's not where it came from though. And wouldn't a population boom/bust chain also be designed or have a pattern? JVL
JVL, coin flipping trains give binary sequences, if you do a simple coin flip of 500 coins and it comes up ascii message in English for 71 characters, head to Vegas before the hot streak fades. And this is a valid use as well you know, red herrings, strawmen and confusing clouds notwithstanding. KF PS, if it looks like noise unless you have a decoding key, the safe bet made by the design inference filter as well you know is, it's noise. Earlier you gave a sequence you note I said looks like a population boom bust chain. It did and does. kairosfocus
Kairosfocus: games with empty sequences do not tell us anything, whether fib’s numbers or succession of primes Why should that be? If you think the Fibonacci sequence or the primes are designed then should not Dr Dembski's test flag them up as so? (The question of the primes is a good one, almost philosophical. Where DO they come from? Not from our representation of them. Not from our culture(s).) If Dr Dembski, who used numerical sequences as examples, did not mean his test to be valid for testing such things then why did he use them as examples? Plus . . . since you brought it up . . . Let's say we did detect a signal from deep space, like in the movie Contact, but with no pattern we could discern. How would you attempt to decide if it was natural or random or designed? JVL
ET: Again, the purpose of the design inference is to be able to determine when nature, operating freely, produced some effect or was an intelligent agency involved. Funny that Dr Dembski used coin flipping as an example then. And coded messages can appear to be random. Which is the point of Dr Dembski's test is it not? The bottom line is JVL’s “challenge” is that of a desperate child who doesn’t understand science and is clueless about detecting intelligent design. Look, Dr Dembski clearly designed his tool so it could be used against numerical sequences; he used numerical sequences as some of his examples. If you are unable to apply his rule to the sequences I gave you then why not just say so instead of calling names? JVL
JVL, games with empty sequences do not tell us anything, whether fib's numbers or succession of primes. In Contact, the issue was a SIGNAL recognised as it is so implausible for the primes to be produced by noise. Where, signal vs noise shows how deeply embedded the design inference is in a central field of science and technology, information and communication. Well do I remember my awe at looking at grass on a D52 scope screen. Then, looking at signal. I remember being told I danced a jig when my first, phase shift oscillator circuit as a de novo design, duly popped up with a clean sinusoid. Which of course would be something else pointing to design as a clean carrier is hard to do. KF Scope grass https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znwp0pK8Tzk kairosfocus
JVL:
Too bad you can’t use Dr Dembski’s mathematical tool yourself.
Too bad you are a willfully ignorant tool. Dembski's mathematical tool doesn't have anything to do with your idiotic challenge. Again, the purpose of the design inference is to be able to determine when nature, operating freely, produced some effect or was an intelligent agency involved. That said, if we saw any of JVL's numeric sequences etched into a wall of a cave, we would infer an intelligent agency was involved. The question of randomness or a distinct pattern is secondary. And coded messages can appear to be random. The bottom line is JVL's "challenge" is that of a desperate child who doesn't understand science and is clueless about detecting intelligent design. ET
Asauber: Why don’t you, as an open-minded explorer, show us how Dembski’s tool does in the case of your mystery sequences? a) I don't have to 'cause I know where the sequences came from and b) I don't believe his tool is a valid or useable way to detect design. I do understand what he was trying to accomplish however. I think some of his comments in the monograph are quite good and pertinent in fact. I just don't find his final formulation valid or even useable in some situations. Considering how often it ever got used I think my views on it are correct. One of the sequences you should recognise. JVL
JVL, Why don't you, as an open-minded explorer, show us how Dembski's tool does in the case of your mystery sequences? Andrew asauber
ET: Right. We don’t know the source of living organisms. And yet we are able to discern intelligent design given our KNOWLEDGE of cause-and-effect relationships. And Dembski’s math helps us to do so. Too bad you can't use Dr Dembski's mathematical tool yourself. Ah well, maybe someone else can. JVL
JVL:
Clearly Dr Dembski indicated that it should be possible to discern design or specified information knowing nothing at all about the source of the potential design.
Right. We don't know the source of living organisms. And yet we are able to discern intelligent design given our KNOWLEDGE of cause-and-effect relationships. And Dembski's math helps us to do so. Archaeologists didn't know the source of Stonehenge until they started to study it and all relevant evidence. ET
Yes, JVL, your ignorance of science and ID are hilarious.
That’s what I’m asking you folks: can you examine the sequences I gave you and see if they were randomly generated or came about via some kind of specification or scheme or design or plan.
Your "challenge" doesn't have anything to do with ID nor what Dembski has said. Clearly you are just an ignorant infant and apparently proud of it.
Additionally, I find it incredibly amusing that not one of you recognised one of the sequences...
That doesn't follow at all. Clearly you are just a clueless child. ET
JVL
I find it incredibly amusing that not one of you recognised one of the sequences which I would expect a primary school child to know.
Hmm. I didn't learn about that sequence till secondary*. Maybe because the primary number was excluded and it starts now with the secondary one. ;) *Or I did and forgot. I am very old. Fred Hickson
This is all pretty funny I think. In 2005 Dr Dembski published a monograph, Specification: the pattern that signifies intelligence, where he clearly lays out a mathematical tool that could be used to detect design in objects and mathematical sequences. He uses mathematical sequences as some of his examples. He uses those sequences and asks how it could be determined if those sequences were randomly generated or came about via some scheme or design. He also, specifically, develops his tool so that foreknowledge of how they were generated is not necessary. That's what I'm asking you folks: can you examine the sequences I gave you and see if they were randomly generated or came about via some kind of specification or scheme or design or plan. I didn't say they came about by measuring some natural cause although I didn't rule it out either. That shouldn't matter according to Dr Dembski. In fact, when trying to determine if some mysterious object or thing was designed there would be no need for such a test if the source of the object was known!! It's only use is when the source is NOT known. Again, the question is: were the sequences I gave you randomly generated or did they come about via some design or scheme, do they contain complex, specified information because of how they were generated? I've been told over and over and over again that there are design detection methods; I'd like to see you use those methods on the above sequences. Additionally, I find it incredibly amusing that not one of you recognised one of the sequences which I would expect a primary school child to know. That is just priceless! JVL
JVL
So you think then that Dr Dembski was wrong to propose that it was possible to detect design or specified information knowing nothing at all except the design itself?
No I don't disagree with that. I can detect that your sentences are designed with specified information. I know also that the numbers you provided are the product of human intelligence, since nature does not produce numbers.
You don’t know where those numbers came from by the way.
They came to me via a laptop screen and a blog post. So, I know they were intelligently designed. Silver Asiatic
JVL, of course function is observed in a real contest, as you full well know. That function is like text in this thread in English, or the coded algorithms of DNA you and so many others are running away from, or the arrangement of parts in a 6500CT reel, or the interconnections of process flow networks whether a petroleum refinery or the metabolic network of the cell. We do not need to get into red herring guessing games as to mystery collections of digits. The designs Dembski had in mind were cells, body plans and the like. As to math, I long since published a paper on how logic of structure and quantity is embedded in possible worlds. As for oh Fibonacci sequences are common, yes they are and there are related proportions in our body shape, faces etc. There is a debate about why. We need not try to answer to every case or suggestion in order to deal with key ones sufficient to make the point, a part of the paradigms concept. Newton started with a falling apple and an orbiting moon, Galileo with a pendulum. KF kairosfocus
JVL:
Clearly Dr Dembski indicated that it should be possible to discern design or specified information knowing nothing at all about the source of the potential design.
Yes, that is true. However, it is clear that nature did NOT write down those numeric sequences. So, the context is all messed up. As I said, you are obviously a scientifically illiterate infant. ET
JVL:
Could nature have generated the sequences I gave you?
Nature is incapable of producing numeric sequences.
Sometimes you have to work with what you’ve got.
Not really. No one cares about your out-of-context numeric sequences. There needs to be a reason to investigate. And trying to placate an infantile troll is not such a reason. ET
JVL Clearly Dr Dembski indicated that it should be possible to discern design or specified information knowing nothing at all about the source of the potential design. He thought it was not impossible to know the difference, just study the design itself as ET always says. So, study the potential design and make a call.
Your trick failed miserably . Life have (1)code, (2)function and (3)system(context) you provided only a possible (1)code without function and context . It's obviously why: because you are a moral and objective person and you try to find the truth . :) I could provide you a bunch of numbers that could be codes from bought applications, product keys from Operating Systems, passwords of accounts, codes for top-up credit for phones,etc.,etc.but without providing you context it's impossible to know if are random or designed. For some tribe from Amazon Jungle are gibberish but for some hackers are "pretty" designed. Lieutenant Commander Data
LCD: The funny thing is he shot himself in the foot because he knows what is the source of his numbers but in the same time he try to make the case that is impossible to know the difference. You can’t make this thing up! Clearly Dr Dembski indicated that it should be possible to discern design or specified information knowing nothing at all about the source of the potential design. He thought it was not impossible to know the difference, just study the design itself as ET always says. So, study the potential design and make a call. JVL
Silver Asiatic: There’s nowhere in nature that shows those numbers you produced. So, you extracted them from a source. Hiding the source and quizzing people on “design or not” is not how science works. We look at everything we know and not just on what a human being feels like revealing. So you think then that Dr Dembski was wrong to propose that it was possible to detect design or specified information knowing nothing at all except the design itself? You don't know where those numbers came from by the way. They could be natural. I didn't make them up myself. AND one of the sequences is very famous and clearly not made up by humans. JVL
Asauber: Sure, but it would depend on further information. Context. And if you had none? JVL
Silver Asiatic So, you extracted them from a source. Hiding the source and quizzing people on “design or not” is not how science works. We look at everything we know and not just on what a human being feels like revealing.
The funny thing is he shot himself in the foot because he knows what is the source of his numbers but in the same time he try to make the case that is impossible to know the difference. You can't make this thing up! Lieutenant Commander Data
"You’re looking for some kind of refutation of ID here" Desperately, I reckon. Andrew asauber
JVL
Could nature have generated the sequences I gave you? Yes or no?
You're looking for some kind of refutation of ID here, but as Dawkins says, there are aspects of nature that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose. The strings of text you provided do not show any functional purpose. Unlike DNA they do not direct functions or logic-based responses. They're just patterns. ID does not claim to be able to analyze every artifact on earth and determine "designed or not". It only takes what is obviously designed, since it will be a functioning system or irreducible complexity. Asking if the pattern of raindrops on the ground show evidence of design is to misunderstand what ID is. There's nowhere in nature that shows those numbers you produced. So, you extracted them from a source. Hiding the source and quizzing people on "design or not" is not how science works. We look at everything we know and not just on what a human being feels like revealing. Silver Asiatic
"Let’s say we detect a signal originating from a point in outer space. It’s a series of pulses, dots and dashes, something like that. In order to decide if that signal is designed is it not essential to represent that signal in some kind of abstract form?" JVL, Sure, but it would depend on further information. Context. Andrew asauber
ET: o, science is a parlor game to you? What you are asking has absolutely NOTHING to do with ID and how we detect design. Letters on a page in a book would appear random to anyone who doesn’t know the language or something about what humans do. But the investigator would understand that nature didn’t do it and it took an intelligent agency to produce. You guys are the ones who claim to be able to detect design. I gave you some simple, clear mathematical sequences and asked if you could discern if they were designed or random. I gave you quotes from a monograph by Dr Dembski where he gives a method for determining specified information in possibly random sequences. And you still can't admit that you cannot make the determination. The design inference pertains to what nature can do vs what intelligent agencies can. Intelligent agencies can carve random doodles in a cave wall. It is still an artifact. Could nature have generated the sequences I gave you? Yes or no? Obviously, CONTEXT matters with respect to scientific investigations. But you are just desperate and want to try to turn science into so cheap parlor game. Sometimes you have to work with what you've got. Can you determine if the sequences I gave you are designed or not? Yes or no? And you keep being told that is because it was intelligently designed using mathematics. That should make it even easier to decide if the mathematical sequences I gave you are designed or not. And, clearly, you have bailed on the sequence questions. I'll take that as a: no, I cannot figure out if those sequences are random or designed from you then. Weird since one of them is really famous. JVL
LCD: We talk about coding systems with functions(cell’s code). Real functions that have the code as source for function . Your argumentation is void. That has nothing to do with actually trying to determine if the sequences I posted, which are not a code or a representation of something else, are designed or random values. Since you clearly cannot make that determination then why don't you just admit it. JVL
JVL:
I know you can’t actually answer the obvious question but I’ll ask it anyway: what kind of evidence would you accept?
Here it is, AGAIN: Start by demonstrating that living organisms are reducible to physics and chemistry. To do that all scientists would need to do is synthesize a population of prokaryotes. They know all of the chemicals and reactions involved. They understand the biophysics. Yet, they can't even solve that problem. But yours is the most difficult position to demonstrate. How can anyone test the claim that the Earth/ Moon system and solar system is the result of innumerable atomic accidents and cosmic collisions? It has nothing to do with what anyone would accept. It has everything to do with your inability to demonstrate anything beyond your ignorance of science. ET
JVL:
So, you cannot analyse or study the sequences I gave you not knowing anything else and determine if they are random or designed. Is that correct?
So, science is a parlor game to you? What you are asking has absolutely NOTHING to do with ID and how we detect design. Letters on a page in a book would appear random to anyone who doesn't know the language or something about what humans do. But the investigator would understand that nature didn't do it and it took an intelligent agency to produce. The design inference pertains to what nature can do vs what intelligent agencies can. Intelligent agencies can carve random doodles in a cave wall. It is still an artifact. Unfortunately, people like JVL don't understand science, investigating or what the design inference pertains to.
They were reproduced on a computer but they were not generated by a computer. Anyway, what difference does it make where they are recorded? The question is: was the sequence designed or not? I didn’t create them. Especially the very famous one.
Obviously, CONTEXT matters with respect to scientific investigations. But you are just desperate and want to try to turn science into so cheap parlor game.
I keep being told how uncanny it is that nature can be modelled by mathematics.
And you keep being told that is because it was intelligently designed using mathematics. ET
2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43, 47, 53, 59, 61, 67, 71, 73, 79, 83, 89, 97, etc. Not encoded at all.
OK. I quote from a site for kids if you still don't understand I can't help you: "A number is a basic unit of mathematics. Numbers are used for counting, measuring, and comparing amounts. A number system is a set of symbols, or numerals, that are used to represent numbers. The most common number system uses 10 symbols called digits—0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9—and combinations of these digits. (https://kids.britannica.com)
No function. It’s just a sequence of numbers that either are related by some pattern or not. Can you tell the difference?
We talk about coding systems with functions(cell's code). Real functions that have the code as source for function . Your argumentation is void. Lieutenant Commander Data
LCD: You have no clue. The sequences are encoded. Whether or not they are designed or random requires no interpretation other than considering the values alone. Your need to consider the relationship between the values NOT what they might represent or mean. IF you cannot determine if they are designed or random then just say so. It seems that you can't but an honest and honourable person would say so. By the way, this sequence: 2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43, 47, 53, 59, 61, 67, 71, 73, 79, 83, 89, 97 Is extremely famous. One you should recognise. One not encoded or encrypted. We see the function of a signal in the cell what is the function of your signal ? No function. It's just a sequence of numbers that either are related by some pattern or not. Can you tell the difference? JVL
LCD: You have no clue. The sequences are encoded. Whether or not they are designed or random requires no interpretation other than considering the values alone. Your need to consider the relationship between the values NOT what they might represent or mean. IF you cannot determine if they are designed or random then just say so. It seems that you can't but an honest and honourable person would say so. By the way, this sequence is extremely famous: 2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43, 47, 53, 59, 61, 67, 71, 73, 79, 83, 89, 97, etc. Not encoded at all. JVL
JVL The sequences I gave you are not encoded or encrypted. IF there is a design or pattern it is discernible just considering the numerical values alone.
You have no clue. The sequences are encoded.
, is there a problem making sure that any given sequence can be determined to be caused by design or unguided natural processes?
You make no sense. You compare broccoli with candy bar. We see the function of a signal in the cell what is the function of your signal ? Lieutenant Commander Data
Asuaber: Mathematics can only attempt to model an aspect of nature, not all of nature. Besides, “nature” itself is not scientifically definable. It’s not reduceable to mathematics. I don't have a problem with that statement. Except for your spelling. Let's say we detect a signal originating from a point in outer space. It's a series of pulses, dots and dashes, something like that. In order to decide if that signal is designed is it not essential to represent that signal in some kind of abstract form? Possibly mathematical? Like, for instance, to check to see if the signal carries the Fibonacci numbers? Given that, is there a problem making sure that any given sequence can be determined to be caused by design or unguided natural processes? JVL
"I keep being told how uncanny it is that nature can be modelled by mathematics." JVL, By "modeled" you mean interpreted, reduced, and represented by humans to humans. Mathematics can only attempt to model an aspect of nature, not all of nature. Besides, "nature" itself is not scientifically definable. It's not reduceable to mathematics. Andrew asauber
Also from Dr Dembski's monograph:
One final difference that should be pointed out regarding my past work on specification is the difference between specified complexity then and now. In the past, specified complexity, as I characterized it, was a property describing a relation between a pattern and an event delineated by that pattern. Accordingly, specified complexity either obtained or did not obtain as a certain relation between a pattern and an event. In my present treatment, specified complexity still captures this relation, but it is now not merely a property but an actual number calculated by a precise formula (i.e., ? = –log2[10120 ·?S(T)·P(T|H)]). This number can be negative, zero, or positive. When the number is greater than 1, it indicates that we are dealing with a specification.
I'm just asking if any of you can calculate the associated value for the sequences I provided. Clearly Dr Dembski thinks it's possible. JVL
From Dr Dembski's 2005 monograph: Specification: The Pattern That Signifies Intelligence
Can objects, even if nothing is known about how they arose, exhibit features that reliably signal the action of an intelligent cause?
The fundamental claim of this paper is that for a chance hypothesis H, if the specified complexity ? = –log2[10120 ·?S(T)·P(T|H)] is greater than 1, then T is a specification and the semiotic agent S is entitled to eliminate H as the explanation for the occurrence of any event E 25 that conforms to the pattern T (S is similarly entitled to eliminate H when the context-dependent specified complexity ?~ = –log2[M·N·?S(T)·P(T|H)] is greater than one, only this time, because M·N will be less than 10120 , the strength with which ?~ eliminates H will be less than what it is for ?).
Apologies for some of the symbols not being reproduced properly on this site (there are ways to fix that) but the upshot is: here is a way to detect design without knowing anything about where the sequence in question came from.
The argument from ignorance, also known as the appeal to ignorance or by the Latin argumentum ad ignorantiam, is the fallacy of arguing that something must be true because nobody can prove it false or, alternatively, that something must be false because nobody can prove it true. Such arguments involve the illogical notion that one can view the lack of evidence about a proposition as being positive evidence for it or against it. But lack of evidence is lack of evidence, and supports no conclusion.
I mention that quote in response to Et's continual claim that ID must be true because no one can prove it false. Looks like Dr Dembski disagrees with you there. JVL
LCD: A message/information/code is rubbish without a very specific key to decrypt it. The sequences I gave you are not encoded or encrypted. IF there is a design or pattern it is discernible just considering the numerical values alone. JVL
Kairosfocus: we know that a string of alphanumerical characters or a structure reducible to description is FSCO/I by observation Well, observe the sequences I gave you and determine whether or not they contain FSCO. Or admit you can't. Your call. JVL
Asauber: Counting is done by humans. Reducing to numbers is done by humans. Nature doesn’t know what a sequence is. I keep being told how uncanny it is that nature can be modelled by mathematics. Or that atomic particles ARE probability waves. JVL
ET: So, you cannot analyse or study the sequences I gave you not knowing anything else and determine if they are random or designed. Is that correct? And only intelligent agencies can produce number sequences on a computer. They were reproduced on a computer but they were not generated by a computer. Anyway, what difference does it make where they are recorded? The question is: was the sequence designed or not? I didn't create them. Especially the very famous one. JVL
ET, correct. KF kairosfocus
AS, precisely correct. KF kairosfocus
JVL, we know that a string of alphanumerical characters or a structure reducible to description is FSCO/I by observation. Is it complex, beyond 500 - 1,000 bits explicitly or implicitly, is it functional in a cell, device, process etc, is it fairly sensitive to random perturbation. Those are observations with some totting up, they are not question begging. You know for years from a case in point, a 6500CT fishing reel, which shows the difference between a reel and a pile of parts or even getting grit inside. Compare the protein synthesis system. I know there has been silly mockery which does not realise I chose a simpler illustration than a watch, I think a galvanometer which is even simpler is too specialised. As Paley showed in ch 2, self replication ADDS to the FSCO/I. So, objection fails. And the strings are obviously intelligently made being place value notation, comma separated decimal values even if by virtue of an odd function or random or partly random process. KF kairosfocus
01000101 01110110 01101111 01101100 01110101 01110100 01101001 01101111 01101110 00100000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01100001 00100000 01101000 01101111 01100001 01111000 or 45 76 6F 6C 75 74 69 6F 6E 20 69 73 20 61 20 68 6F 61 78 https://www.rapidtables.com/convert/number/binary-to-ascii.html Find the message. :) A message/information/code is rubbish without a very specific key to decrypt it. Lieutenant Commander Data
"counting the lengths of the gaps between the pulses of quasars is not nature producing a sequence?" Counting is done by humans. Reducing to numbers is done by humans. Nature doesn't know what a sequence is. Andrew asauber
Really, nature cannot produce sequences of numbers. Really, JVL is lying about the evidence. Really, JVL is ignorant of IC. Really, JVL is ignorant of science. Really JVL is lying about me misrepresenting the mathematics. And he is too stupid to understand the argument I just used! Again, for the learning impaired- the ONLY reason the paper "waiting for two mutations" was published is because there isn't any evidence for evolution by means of blind and mindless processes. Fact. Now JVL is moving the goal posts. The numbers, as JVL presented them, are just numbers. And only intelligent agencies can produce number sequences on a computer. JVL, being ignorant of science, doesn't understand that CONTEXT matters. He is a clueless loser. And he thinks its scientific ignorance means something. Why are you so freaking desperate that you have to prove to everyone that you are an infant, JVL? How is that helping you? ET
Oh, my! JVL:
How do you know if some sequence contains functionally specific, complex information?
It's an observation, duh. With living organisms we OBSERVE function. Then we observe only specific sequences provide functionality. Then we apply Shannon to see if we can measure the information carrying capacity of the sequence.
So . . . if you don’t see the information being used you can’t tell if it was designed?
Wow! People make observations and then use science to try to explain them. That is what science is all about- explaining what we OBSERVE. What is wrong with you? How can you be that ignorant with respect to science? ET
ET: Nature cannot produce number sequences, duh. Really? So . . . counting the lengths of the gaps between the pulses of quasars is not nature producing a sequence? The rings of Saturn is not a pattern that can be represented numerically? If there isn’t any evidence that nature did it we can dismiss that claim Fortunately, we do have such evidence. Whew eh? IT PERMEATES THE CELL JUST AS I HAVE BEEN TELLING YOU FOR YEARS YOU WILLFULLY IGNORANT TROLL What does that mean? It's everywhere? DNA doesn't permeate the cell, it's found in a particular locus. I don't think you can demonstrated this supposed extra programming at all. You can't say how it's encoded or stored or read or transcribed or how it affects development. Your caps lock is working though. Already done. With probabilistic arguments as I recall. Which is not the same as saying natural processes couldn't possibly have come up with it, just that it seems very unlikely. No, moron. All you have to do is demonstrate that blind and mindless processes are capable. But you can’t. I know you can't actually answer the obvious question but I'll ask it anyway: what kind of evidence would you accept? The paper “waiting for two mutations” exists because there isn’t any such evidence. So you are a liar and a fool Uh huh. You know you have misinterpreted the mathematics in that paper because you've been told many times. It's kind of a bummer when you don't understand the mathematics isn't it? Both are the result of an intelligent agency as nature is incapable of producing a sequence of numbers such as those. How do you know? They could be the gaps in minutes between observable solar flares. They could be the direction in degrees a bacterium travels. Because of your lack of imagination you just decide they were created by a human being. Which means you can't really analyse the sequences at all to tell if they were designed. So you don't really have a numerical design detection tool at all. Is that about right? How about this sequence: 2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43, 47, 53, 59, 61, 67, 71, 73, 79, 83, 89, 97, etc No human came up with that sequence, it comes out of the properties of the numbers themselves. So, was that designed? By whom? How about this sequence: 2, 3, 5, 7, 13, 17, 19, 31, 61, 89, 107, 127, 521, 607, 1279, 2203, 2281, 3217, 4253, 4423, 9689, 9941, 11213, 19937, 21701, 23209, 44497, 86243, 110503, 132049, 216091, 756839, 859433, 1257787, 1398269, 2976221, 3021377, 6972593, 13466917, 20996011, 24036583, 25964951, 30402457, 32582657, 37156667, 42643801, 43112609 I know you'll just bail on the whole issue 'cause you can't actually analyse sequences for design or even specified complex information. JVL
JVL Just out of curiosity . . . can anyone determine if the following sequence is intelligently designed or contains complex, specified information? 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 3, 1, 3, 4, 1, 1, 6, 5, 1, 4, 10, 6, 1, 1, 10, 15, 7, 1, 5, 20, 21, 8, 1, 15, 35, 28, 6, 35, 56, 1, 21, 70, 7, 56, 1, 28, 8, 1 Or this one: 1, 1, 2, 1, 4, 4, 1, 6, 12, 8, 1, 8, 24, 32, 16, 1, 10, 40, 80, 80, 32, 1, 12, 60, 160, 240, 192, 64, 1, 14, 84, 280, 560, 672, 448, 128 Can you determine if those sequences have complex, specified information?
:) This explain why darwinists are clueless about codes/symbols/languages . Glorifying the invisible power of matter("to create" codes in living systems )with an unknown method but they have the feeling that must be true . The scientists[ENCODE] didn't broke the code of DNA they just recorded the letters of the code . To brake a code you need the key and if you have the key you don't need to do experiments anymore because you know everything about that code. That's why scientists try to brake the code by external method (by experiments) but this is almost impossible to provide all the information to understand the cell. In conclusion your numbers can't signify a code outside the system that coded/or run them in the first place. We need the key +the system where this code belong. DNA outside the cell is not a code because there is no decoder to understand and use the code as was programmed. The world of cryptography is 100% the result of a mind (locked info-key-unlocked info) and randomness have no place in it..
counting the lengths of the gaps between the pulses of quasars is not nature producing a sequence?
Who is counting and with what is counting? :))) Do the numbers come through air and your eyes just see them or a signal is translated into numbers by a device produced by humans? Lieutenant Commander Data
Kairosfocus: I do not particularly recognise said sequences and you will observe that I focus on the relevant subset of Dembski’s generalisation, FUNCTIONALLY SPECIFIC, complex organisation and/or information. Show me strings of 500 – 1,000 bits or more exhibiting observable function and we have something to talk about. But that's begging the question surely. How do you know if some sequence contains functionally specific, complex information? Only if you see it exhibiting such? There's no way to detect that independent of it being used? So . . . if you don't see the information being used you can't tell if it was designed? Wolfram Alpha’s pattern finder, which is a puzzle solver returns blank on your first case and the second, they have the feel of population boom and crash models. That's not where they came from. Try again. JVL
A sequence of decimals delineated by commas? A pile of rocks did it. Andrew asauber
JVL:
Just out of curiosity . . . can anyone determine if the following sequence is intelligently designed or contains complex, specified information? 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 3, 1, 3, 4, 1, 1, 6, 5, 1, 4, 10, 6, 1, 1, 10, 15, 7, 1, 5, 20, 21, 8, 1, 15, 35, 28, 6, 35, 56, 1, 21, 70, 7, 56, 1, 28, 8, 1 Or this one: 1, 1, 2, 1, 4, 4, 1, 6, 12, 8, 1, 8, 24, 32, 16, 1, 10, 40, 80, 80, 32, 1, 12, 60, 160, 240, 192, 64, 1, 14, 84, 280, 560, 672, 448, 128
Both are the result of an intelligent agency as nature is incapable of producing a sequence of numbers such as those. JVL is obviously just a dolt. ET
JVL:
How about a number sequence?
Yes. Nature cannot produce number sequences, duh.
If there was no designer about then design couldn’t have happened or been implemented.
If there isn't any evidence that nature did it we can dismiss that claim
Tell us all where the extra programming is then.
IT PERMEATES THE CELL JUST AS I HAVE BEEN TELLING YOU FOR YEARS YOU WILLFULLY IGNORANT TROLL
Okay, prove the bacteria flagellum is irreducibly complex.
Already done.
But that’s been done. There’s the fossil evidence, consistent with unguided evolution.
Unguided evolution cannot account for the organisms that were fossilized. You are clueless.
But somehow we have to try and disprove some undefined, undetected, unknowable designer who did something, sometime.
No, moron. All you have to do is demonstrate that blind and mindless processes are capable. But you can't.
So, since I think it has been demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt that nature can do it are we finished?
No one cares what you think. There isn't anything in peer-review. The paper "waiting for two mutations" exists because there isn't any such evidence. So you are a liar and a fool. Good luck with that. ET
JVL, I do not particularly recognise said sequences and you will observe that I focus on the relevant subset of Dembski's generalisation, FUNCTIONALLY SPECIFIC, complex organisation and/or information. Show me strings of 500 - 1,000 bits or more exhibiting observable function and we have something to talk about. Not hard, there are trillions of cases starting with the Internet. Can you identify a text string of 72 to 143 or more ascii characters that is a recognisable sentence or functioning program running on a substrate and which observably came about by blind chance and mechanical necessity? If not then you are leading a red herring off to a convenient strawman. And as one time message pads are not crackable by cryptanalysis, there can be no general decoder as you know. KF PS, Wolfram Alpha's pattern finder, which is a puzzle solver returns blank on your first case and the second, they have the feel of population boom and crash models. kairosfocus
Kairosfocus: the design inference is not a general design detector or puzzle solver. Can you determine if those sequences have complex, specified information? JVL
JVL, the design inference is not a general design detector or puzzle solver. It is applicable to cases where recognised signs are detected, and as the signs reliably point to design they point to process. Detection of design on sign is evidence that a -- not the specific -- capable designer is or was present. It is interesting to note again your confident manner assertion on OoL and how rapidly you had to back away. I notice no onward response to 206 given 188. KF kairosfocus
RD, 16, this caught my eye:
Meyer is counting on the ignorance of his target audience here, again. Self-modifying code, which uses feedback mechanisms are widely in use. Just like Evolution, they are capable of generating new information without any outer influence.
Of course, confession by projection to the other. Self modifying code is of course DESIGNED, so it is not a counter example to the origin of FSCO/I by intelligently directed configuration. Your notion of Evolution generating information (notice your lack of an indicator of a threshold pf complexity that swamps blind search) is little more than an ideologically driven assertion. BTW, Paley in Ch 2 on his self replicating watch thought exercise is highly relevant and generally not addressed:
Suppose, in the next place, that the person who found the watch [in a field and stumbled on the stone in Ch 1 just past, where this is 50 years before Darwin in Ch 2 of a work Darwin full well knew about] should after some time discover that, in addition to
[--> here cf encapsulated, gated, metabolising automaton, and note, "stickiness" of molecules raises a major issue of interfering cross reactions thus very carefully controlled organised reactions are at work in life . . . ]
all the properties [= specific, organised, information-rich functionality] which he had hitherto observed in it, it possessed the unexpected property of producing in the course of its movement another watch like itself [--> i.e. self replication, cf here the code using von Neumann kinematic self replicator that is relevant to first cell based life] -- the thing is conceivable [= this is a gedankenexperiment, a thought exercise to focus relevant principles and issues]; that it contained within it a mechanism, a system of parts -- a mold, for instance, or a complex adjustment of lathes, baffles, and other tools -- evidently and separately calculated for this purpose [--> it exhibits functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information; where, in mid-late C19, cell based life was typically thought to be a simple jelly-like affair, something molecular biology has long since taken off the table but few have bothered to pay attention to Paley since Darwin] . . . . The first effect would be to increase his admiration of the contrivance, and his conviction of the consummate skill of the contriver. Whether he regarded the object of the contrivance, the distinct apparatus, the intricate, yet in many parts intelligible mechanism by which it was carried on, he would perceive in this new observation nothing but an additional reason for doing what he had already done -- for referring the construction of the watch to design and to supreme art
[--> directly echoes Plato in The Laws Bk X on the ART-ificial (as opposed to the strawman tactic "supernatural") vs the natural in the sense of blind chance and/or mechanical necessity as serious alternative causal explanatory candidates; where also the only actually observed cause of FSCO/I is intelligently configured configuration, i.e. contrivance or design]
. . . . He would reflect, that though the watch before him were, in some sense, the maker of the watch, which, was fabricated in the course of its movements, yet it was in a very different sense from that in which a carpenter, for instance, is the maker of a chair -- the author of its contrivance, the cause of the relation of its parts to their use [--> i.e. design]. . . . . We might possibly say, but with great latitude of expression, that a stream of water ground corn ; but no latitude of expression would allow us to say, no stretch cf conjecture could lead us to think, that the stream of water built the mill, though it were too ancient for us to know who the builder was. What the stream of water does in the affair is neither more nor less than this: by the application of an unintelligent impulse to a mechanism previously arranged, arranged independently of it and arranged by intelligence, an effect is produced, namely, the corn is ground. But the effect results from the arrangement. [--> points to intelligently directed configuration as the observed and reasonably inferred source of FSCO/I] The force of the stream cannot be said to be the cause or the author of the effect, still less of the arrangement. Understanding and plan in the formation of the mill were not the less necessary for any share which the water has in grinding the corn; yet is this share the same as that which the watch would have contributed to the production of the new watch . . . . Though it be now no longer probable that the individual watch which our observer had found was made immediately by the hand of an artificer, yet doth not this alteration in anywise affect the inference, that an artificer had been originally employed and concerned in the production. The argument from design remains as it was. Marks of design and contrivance are no more accounted for now than they were before. In the same thing, we may ask for the cause of different properties. We may ask for the cause of the color of a body, of its hardness, of its heat ; and these causes may be all different. We are now asking for the cause of that subserviency to a use, that relation to an end, which we have remarked in the watch before us. No answer is given to this question, by telling us that a preceding watch produced it. There cannot be design without a designer; contrivance, without a contriver; order [--> better, functionally specific organisation], without choice; arrangement, without any thing capable of arranging; subserviency and relation to a purpose, without that which could intend a purpose; means suitable to an end, and executing their office in accomplishing that end, without the end ever having been contemplated, or the means accommodated to it. Arrangement, disposition of parts, subserviency of means to an end, relation of instruments to a use, imply the presence of intelligence and mind. No one, therefore, can rationally believe that the insensible, inanimate watch, from which the watch before us issued, was the proper cause of the mechanism we so much admire m it — could be truly said to have constructed the instrument, disposed its parts, assigned their office, determined their order, action, and mutual dependency, combined their several motions into one result, and that also a result connected with the utilities of other beings. All these properties, therefore, are as much unaccounted for as they were before. Nor is any thing gained by running the difficulty farther back, that is, by supposing the watch before us to have been produced from another watch, that from a former, and so on indefinitely. Our going back ever so far brings us no nearer to the least degree of satisfaction upon the subject. Contrivance is still unaccounted for. We still want a contriver. A designing mind is neither supplied by this supposition nor dispensed with. If the difficulty were diminished the farther we went back, by going back indefinitely we might exhaust it. And this is the only case to which this sort of reasoning applies. "Where there is a tendency, or, as we increase the number of terms, a continual approach towards a limit, there, by supposing the number of terms to be what is called infinite, we may conceive the limit to be attained; but where there is no such tendency or approach, nothing is effected by lengthening the series . . . , And the question which irresistibly presses upon our thoughts is. Whence this contrivance and design ? The thing required is the intending mind, the adapted hand, the intelligence by which that hand was directed. This question, this demand, is not shaken off by increasing a number or succession of substances destitute of these properties; nor the more, by increasing that number to infinity. If it be said, that upon the supposition of one watch being produced from another in the course of that other's movements, and by means of the mechanism within it, we have a cause for the watch in my hand, namely, the watch from which it proceeded — I deny, that for the design, the contrivance, the suitableness of means to an end, the adaptation of instruments to a use, all of which we discover in the watch, we have any cause whatever. It is in vain, therefore, to assign a series of such causes, or to allege that a series may be carried back to infinity; for I do not admit that we have yet any cause at all for the phenomena, still less any series of causes either finite or infinite. Here is contrivance, but no contriver; proofs of design, but no designer. [Paley, Nat Theol, Ch 2]
KF kairosfocus
Just out of curiosity . . . can anyone determine if the following sequence is intelligently designed or contains complex, specified information? 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 3, 1, 3, 4, 1, 1, 6, 5, 1, 4, 10, 6, 1, 1, 10, 15, 7, 1, 5, 20, 21, 8, 1, 15, 35, 28, 6, 35, 56, 1, 21, 70, 7, 56, 1, 28, 8, 1 Or this one: 1, 1, 2, 1, 4, 4, 1, 6, 12, 8, 1, 8, 24, 32, 16, 1, 10, 40, 80, 80, 32, 1, 12, 60, 160, 240, 192, 64, 1, 14, 84, 280, 560, 672, 448, 128 JVL
ET: I posted it. And yes. Okay. How about a number sequence? Can you use your test on that? Not required. Do try to keep up. If there was no designer about then design couldn't have happened or been implemented. Yes, blind and mindless processes have been documented to produce genetic diseases and deformities. How can you tell the difference between guided (based on programming) mutations and unguided mutations? Why would the programming allow unguided mutations? What's to stop the programming from becoming corrupted as it too is copied over and over and over again? If there are structures to prevent that then why don't those structures stop unguided mutations from happening? Intelligent agency volition is how design is implemented. How exactly? Where are the tools, the workshops, the energy stores? Volition alone can't do it, you need energy to push particles around or bring them into existence. And yet I just did, earlier today! Tell us all where the extra programming is then. How is it encoded, transcribed and implemented during development and reproduction? I can. You are too stupid to even understand the concept. Okay, prove the bacteria flagellum is irreducibly complex. Will you be using a probabilistic argument? Again, if you and yours can’t provide evidentiary support nor a way to test your claims, we don’t have to consider them. But that's been done. There's the fossil evidence, consistent with unguided evolution. There's the genetic evidence, consistent with unguided evolution. There's the biogeographic evidence, consistent with unguided evolution. There's the morphological evidence, consistent with unguided evolution. Also, consider how any mammal grows from a single cell to adulthood. Is that being guided by some hidden, intelligent hand? Or maybe that extra programming you can't ever seem to display? Plus we've observed what can happen with breeding programs and how it's possible to radically change morphology fairly quickly working with a base of inherited variation. Then there's the clear evidence of how bacteria and viruses mutation and change (hopefully not based on some design paradigm), sometimes even 'learning' how to jump from one species to another. No one has to disprove unicorns. No one has to disprove giant humanoid cyclops once threatened mere humans. But somehow we have to try and disprove some undefined, undetected, unknowable designer who did something, sometime. No one can really say what or when. They think they know why however so I guess that's alright. if someone can step up and demonstrate that nature can do it, the design inference will be falsified. So, since I think it has been demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt that nature can do it are we finished? Oh, wait, just because you're not convinced we have to keep repeating the evidence, the data, the research, the arguments over and over and over again? Sigh. JVL
FH gives examples of evolutionary theory - and one from National Geographic magazine that just says a mechanism for natural selection exists (that's not a theory). Then Theobald says evolutionary theory excludes a mechanism. They don't care that there's a contradiction here. They'll use whatever they want, no matter how incoherent. Silver Asiatic
From Whether Intelligent Design is Science:
Again, as I made abundantly clear at trial, it isn’t “evolution” but Darwinism — random mutation and natural selection — that ID challenges. Darwinism makes the large, crucial claim that random processes and natural selection can account for the functional complexity of life. Thus the “burden of proof” for Darwinism necessarily is to support its special claim — not simply to show that common descent looks to be true. How can a demand for Darwinism to convincingly support its express claim be “unreasonable”?- Michael Behe
That is why Theobald says that his "evidences" for macroevolution are not dependent on any mechanism. Which itself is weird because he uses patterns as evidence, yet mechanisms determine patterns. Slight of hand equivocation is they have ever had. That and the blind insistence that DNA is some sort of magical, miracle molecule. They don't realize that their proposed mechanism of differential accumulations of heritable genetic changes, has as much chance as producing the diversity of life as any vehicle powered by a V12 engine has of reaching the Moon. ET
JVL
a vast, vast majority of working biologists agree with unguided evolutionary theory
This is a good admission. Fred Hickson, for example, claims he doesn't know what blind, unguided means and that it's irrelevant. You, however, rightly say that a majority of evolutionists claim that evolution is unguided. But that's an unscientific claim - untestable. Silver Asiatic
It's an endless loop of PRATTs, denials, equivocation and bloviation. At least you are understanding my frustration. ET
ET it is increasingly obvious that we are dealing with locked in accusatory talk points as a rhetorical tactic. Utterly unresponsive to evidence or correction. This we should take as a sign of how those who choose to be deaf to first duties of reason become. KF kairosfocus
Apologies to the clueless evolutionists but DNA is NOT the miracle, magical molecule that you need it to be. ET
Fred Hickson:
Here’s an interesting study. I’ve made the point here that morphological ang molecular trees of relatedness show remarkably good agreement. This paper shows molecular trees to be better!
Only as long as you ignore the fact that mechanisms determine patterns! But that is your MO- willful ignorance. ET
Fred Hickson- Why do you continue to be an equivocating troll?
It leaves us with no explanation, as ID proponents stop at rejecting evolutionary explanations and don’t trouble to propose alternative ones.
No one rejects "evolutionary explanations". ID is not anti-evolution. We say there aren't any explanations that evolution BY MEANS OF BLIND AND MINDLESS PROCESSES did it. And "Not By Chance" was published in 1997. But first, grow up and stop equivocating. Evolutionary explanations are not the same as blind watchmaker evolutionary explanations. ET
JVL:
What criteria, exactly? Can you apply these criteria to a biological structure of my choice?
I posted it. And yes.
Have you observed a non-human intelligence capable of high-level design like genomes?
Not required. Do try to keep up.
Accidental mutations didn’t produce such a system. Accidental mutations coupled with millennia of cumulative selection did.
I know the propaganda. I also know that throwing time at an issue is a sure sign that you don't have anything. Also, DNA based life is impossible without existing error detection and correction machinery. DNA is too unstable to exist without it.
Design requires implementation. That takes some mechanics. Can you provide that? The blind and mindless process is selection and some other mechanisms which have been clearly and obviously documented and measured and tested. What is the mechanism for design implementation?
Yes, blind and mindless processes have been documented to produce genetic diseases and deformities. Intelligent agency volition is how design is implemented. Again, we do NOT have to know how the design was implemented in order to determine design exists.
ID is not about much of anything.
Your willful ignorance is not an argument.
ET has never been able to point to the ‘extra programming’ they claim exists in cells.
And yet I just did, earlier today! If living organisms are reducible to physics and chemistry then scientists are complete imbeciles because they are unable to produce a living organism in a lab. They know all of the chemicals. They understand all of the reactions. The biophysics is also well understood. Yet, no one can do it.
You can’t actually ‘prove’ something is irreducibly complex.
I can. You are too stupid to even understand the concept.
And, clearly, you cannot ‘prove’ that unguided processes could not have come up with this or that structure.
Again, if you and yours can't provide evidentiary support nor a way to test your claims, we don't have to consider them. No one has to disprove unicorns. No one has to disprove giant humanoid cyclops once threatened mere humans. No one has to disprove the claim that nature produced Stonehenge. The SCIENCE of Intelligent Design is in the determination that design exists, and then studying it so we can understand it. And the only way you can hope to understand something that is intelligently designed is to study it as such. Meaning scientists wouldn't have any hope of understanding Stonehenge if looked at as a natural formation. Something engineered should be able to be reverse engineered. And by doing that we can understand it all that much better. But it is our KNOWLEDGE of cause-and-effect relationships that brought us to the design inference. And as with ALL design inferences, if someone can step up and demonstrate that nature can do it, the design inference will be falsified. ET
JVL, in short you bluffed, were called and had no answer for your confident manner assertion. You now want to suggest I cannot answer so there; stalemate. Actually, we can apply Newton's rules, Lyellian form. In steps, 1: We are intelligent and contingent, exemplifying but not exhausting intelligence, we are language using and create technologies. In particular 2: we have created molecular nanotechnologies in crude form so we know such is possible. Where 3: The cell exhibits molecular nanotech and a process flow metabolic chemical reaction framework of high sophistication dwarfing our chemical engineering and doing it on the nano scale. 4: Marks of advanced technology that as a first model we could assign to a molecular nanotech lab well beyond ours. Generations. 5: In particular, part uses coded algorithms to create proteins, so language and cybernetic systems. 6: Language is diagnostic of high intelligence; antecedent to cell based life on earth. 7: Algorithms are finite, goal directed stepwise processes, thus reflective of intent or purpose so we are looking at agency. 8: The world of life, embracing origin and the span of diverse body plans, reflects purposeful agency and sophisticated technology at mastery level. That is, intelligent design. 9: Moreover, the observed cosmos is fine tuned in many ways that support C-Chem, aqueous medium, cell based life. This includes that our local solar system seems set to an operating point, atypical of exoplanets seen so far, now about 5,000. 10: Thus, we have reason to infer a cosmos designed for life as we see. That is already telling us a lot on the chief agency. 11: Further to this, our rational intelligence cannot be accounted for on computation on a substrate, as we know such are non rational dynamic stochastic systems with gigo constraint. 12: So our choice is, computationalism and surrender rationality thus credibility of mind and knowledge claims, or recognising that we are not Turing type first level machines. 13: Turing and those after, also had a level two machine: oracle machine. The first level machine interacts with an oracle that gives one step non computational answers, transforming its power by opening up what we may term wisdom. 14: This opens up the Smith model with a two tier controller cybernetic loop, where we now understand the supervisor to be oracular. Quantum influence has been suggested. 15: As has been discussed many times just studiously and ill advisedly ignored. 16: So, we ourselves become evidence. 17: With logic of being analysis extending that which shows why math at core is universal, we can bring in other aspects of our being, but this is enough for the moment. 18: Of course no prizes as such is too alien to those who rule the roost. KF kairosfocus
:) Morality is the most important element when somebody do science of the past/of origins. Not the case for modern/technological side of science where morality is not so important because you can't escape without presenting hard evidences that everybody can see so you are "forced" to be moral .:) Not the same with darwinism that is a compilation of stories after stories . When something doesn't fit to dogma then immediately are imagined other ways to explain everything without any direct evidence . Ideology disguised as science. If somebody believe in darwinism then doesn't believe in morality so I have a problem in trusting anything they say. Lieutenant Commander Data
Jerry: Natural Evolution is impossible. Gotta love it when someone proves a negative. Pure poetry. JVL
Colour me skeptical. And picture me laughing.
Should be
Colour me stupid. And picture me confused.
How do I know that what was posted was stupid? Similar things have been discussed hundreds of times. If what was said was anywhere close to true, a Nobel prize and millions of dollars awaits. Besides did you read the abstract. It says nothing about how it occurred. It couldn’t. jerry
Silver Asiatic: A fossil does not tell us that evolution is unguided. A fossil is a data point. One data point. One data point is meaningless. A lot of data points might mean something if they show a clear trend or tendency; if they support an explanation. If they support an explanation that is also consistent with other independent threads of data which are also consistent with the same explanation then you might have something. This is why a vast, vast majority of working biologists agree with unguided evolutionary theory. All the data is consistent with that idea, all the independent lines of data converge on the same conclusion, it requires no supposition of forces or influences that we cannot observe or measure now. Why would you come to another conclusion based on the data? JVL
ET: By checking to see if the criteria are met, duh. What criteria, exactly? Can you apply these criteria to a biological structure of my choice? No, it means that you are scientifically illiterate. And irreducible complexity is the test. Do try to follow along. Okay. How do you determine if something is actually irreducibly complex? C'mon, you said you had a test and now it's taking a long time to figure out what it is. Imagination is not science. And no one has ever observed it nor experienced it. It definitely isn’t in any peer-reviewed papers. Have you observed a non-human intelligence capable of high-level design like genomes? Do you have any experience of that? Is it in any peer-reviewed journals? Saying that accidental mutations produced a system to allow cells to guard against accidental mutations, is just stupid. So, without any evidentiary support for it, we can dismiss it and go with our knowledge of cause-and-effect relationships. Science 101. Accidental mutations didn't produce such a system. Accidental mutations coupled with millennia of cumulative selection did. Please try and at least keep up. And also AGAIN- evolution by means of blind and mindless processes is the mechanistic scenario. That means it is up to them to provide one. And they cannot. Design requires implementation. That takes some mechanics. Can you provide that? The blind and mindless process is selection and some other mechanisms which have been clearly and obviously documented and measured and tested. What is the mechanism for design implementation? ID has a process to allow us to differentiate between intelligent design and nature, operating freely. ID is not about the how nor the who for the simple reason that we do not have to know the how or the who BEFORE making that determination of designed or not. ID is not about much of anything. Which is why it's not a better explanation. It doesn't explain anything like when or how or why. And, funnily enough, no one in the ID community is even trying to address those questions even though they've been claiming design has been detected for a couple of decades now. This has been explained to JVL so many times it is clear that he is just an infantile troll Meanwhile . . . ET has never been able to point to the 'extra programming' they claim exists in cells. ET has never been able to give clear criteria for determining which mutations are guided and which aren't. ET has never really stepped up to the plate and proposed when design was implemented. ET has not been able to offer a functional explanation for the large amount of repeated genetic material in the human genome. And, most recently, ET has suggested that irreducible complexity is a test that can be used to determine the truth of ID and unguided evolution without offering a way of determining what biological structures are irreducibly complex. No doubt they will fall back on the trope of: we haven't seen it OR it's too improbable (making a probabilistic argument) which is not the same as establishing that some structure actually is irreducibly complex. And, guess what? You can't actually 'prove' something is irreducibly complex. You can say it's improbable, you can say no one knows how it could have come about via step-by-step unguided methods. But that's not the same as establishing that something is/was definitely irreducibly complex. Because you can't prove a negative. You cannot prove that something did not come about via unguided methods. The whole idea is bankrupt. And, clearly, you cannot 'prove' that unguided processes could not have come up with this or that structure. You can't. That means that bailing out and invoking design is a leap of faith. Which is fine as long as you admit it. Can ET admit he's a theist? JVL
JVL
Every time someone finds a fossil it’s a test of unguided evolution.
A fossil does not tell us that evolution is unguided. Silver Asiatic
RD
You are not explainng anything when the “intelligence” you appeal to, does not exist.
The mechanisms and environments of early earth do not exist. We assume they were the same as we see today and draw an inference from what we observe to what we cannot directly observe. We observe the actions of intelligent agents and draw an inference from what we observe to what we cannot directly observe.
Then you are appealing to one mystery to solve anther…that has no explantory power
Intelligence is not a mystery. We're appealing to that which we can observe and what we know of it - intelligence can produce certain effects that a blind, unintelligent cause cannot produce.
As long as there is no demonstrable correletion between the supernatural
Where's your evidence to support that? No IDists are making a claim about the supernatural - that's something you're adding. So, we'll have to assume that you've looked for correlations with the supernatural - you'd have to define and identify the supernatural first. Again, ID has no need to address this - it's entirely your own construction, so you'd need to define and explain your attempts to find correlations. Silver Asiatic
FH claims, "morphological and molecular trees of relatedness show remarkably good agreement." Well actually, no they don't
Forbidden Question: Common Descent or Common Design? - Jonathan Witt - October 22, 2021 Excerpt: “In 1965 one of the most important scientists of the last century, Linus Pauling, and biologist Emil Zuckerkandl, considered by some as the father of molecular biology, suggested a way that macroevolution could be tested and proved; If the comparison of anatomical and DNA sequences led to the same family tree of organisms, this would be strong evidence for macroevolution. According to them, only evolution would explain the convergence of these two independent chains of evidence. By implication, the opposite finding would count against macroevolution. So what were the results? Over the past 28 years, experimental evidence has revealed that family trees based on anatomical features contradict family trees based on molecular similarities, and at many points. They do not converge. Just as troubling for the idea of macroevolution. family trees based on different molecules yield conflicting and contradictory family trees. As a 2012 paper published in Biological Reviews of the Cambridge philosophical Society reported, "Incongruence between phylogenies derived from morphological versus molecular analysis, and between trees based on different subsets of molecular sequences has become pervasive as datasets have expanded rapidly in both characters and species". Another paper published the following year in the journal Nature, highlighted the extent of the problem. The authors compared 1,070 genes in twenty different yeasts and got 1,070 different trees. https://evolutionnews.org/2021/10/forbidden-question-common-descent-or-common-design/ Logged Out - Scientists Can't Find Darwin's "Tree of Life" Anywhere in Nature by Casey Luskin - Winter 2013 Excerpt: "battles between molecules and morphology are being fought across the entire tree of life," leaving readers with a stark assessment: "Evolutionary trees constructed by studying biological molecules often don't resemble those drawn up from morphology."10,,, A 2012 paper noted that "phylogenetic conflict is common, and [is] frequently the norm rather than the exception," since "incongruence between phylogenies derived from morphological versus molecular analyses, and between trees based on different subsets of molecular sequences has become pervasive as datasets have expanded rapidly in both characters and species."12,,, http://www.salvomag.com/new/articles/salvo27/logged-out.php Toward a Consensus: An Open Letter to BioLogos on the Genetic Evidence - Cornelius Hunter - May 27, 2016 Excerpt: One of Venema's basic points (see here and here) is that the genomes of different species are what we would expect if they evolved.,,, What Does the Evidence Say? For starters, phylogenetic incongruence is rampant in evolutionary studies. Genetic sequence data do not fall into the expected evolutionary pattern. Conflicts exist at all levels of the evolutionary tree and throughout both morphological and molecular traits.,,, As one evolutionist explained, "The tree of life is being politely buried.",,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2016/05/toward_a_consen102879.html "The lay-person reading this, or watching the (Richard Dawkins) video above, is given the clear impression that every gene or pseudogene in every living organism gives essentially the same phylogenetic tree, when analysed with its homologs from other species. This is simply not true. If this were true, then phylogeny building in the genomic era would be a walk in the park. But, as many of my readers will know from personal experience, it is not. If this were true, terms like horizontal gene transfer, incomplete lineage sorting, introgression, and molecular convergence would be rare curiosities in the genomic literature. But they are common (click on the links in the previous sentence to see searched for these terms on Google Scholar). If this were true, commonly-used phylogenetic software like ASTRAL, ASTRID and BUCKy, designed to deal with gene tree incongruence, would be seldom used. But they are used often. I hardly need to labour my point to the present audience. Dawkins’ statements are simply wrong. Gloriously and utterly wrong." Richard Buggs, “Obsolete Dawkinsian evidence for evolution” at Nature: Ecology & Evolution https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/dawkinss-claim-every-gene-delivers-approximately-the-same-tree-of-life-contested-at-nature-journal/
bornagain77
Molecular phylogenies map to biogeography better than morphological ones
:) Nope. There is a widespread occurrence of phylogenetic incongruence . So they cherry-pick what fit better to their religious dogma of darwinism. ( and just ignore everything else) They even admit that : ..."when morphological and molecular trees conflict the latter are often preferred." Lieutenant Commander Data
Natural Evolution is impossible. Each ecology requires hundreds if not thousands of organisms to function to keep the ecology functional. The probability of this happing is a number so large it would take someone a thousand years to count the digits in the exponent of 10.
This makes no sense but let's suppose it does for the moment. It leaves us with no explanation, as ID proponents stop at rejecting evolutionary explanations and don't trouble to propose alternative ones. Fred Hickson
Jerry: But if you look closely, they disprove natural Evolution.
And how closely could you look in the 13 minutes between when Fred posted the link and you responded? Colour me skeptical. And picture me laughing. JHolo
paper shows molecular trees to be better!
But if you look closely, they disprove natural Evolution. Natural Evolution is impossible. Each ecology requires hundreds if not thousands of organisms to function to keep the ecology functional. The probability of this happing is a number so large it would take someone a thousand years to count the digits in the exponent of 10. jerry
Here's an interesting study. I've made the point here that morphological ang molecular trees of relatedness show remarkably good agreement. This paper shows molecular trees to be better! https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-022-03482-x Fred Hickson
JVL Please show how it can be determined, objectively, that a biological structure is irreducibly complex.
:))) Choose one system that you can exclude and organism still can function : nervous system, muscular system, reproductive system, respiratory system, skeletal system, endocrine system, immune system, lymphatic system , integumentary system, urinary system. PS: You can't do biology without thinking in intelligent design frame: how do you find a new function ? By assuming there must be a functional purpose . :lol: Lieutenant Commander Data
And also AGAIN- evolution by means of blind and mindless processes is the mechanistic scenario. That means it is up to them to provide one. And they cannot. ID has a process to allow us to differentiate between intelligent design and nature, operating freely. ID is not about the how nor the who for the simple reason that we do not have to know the how or the who BEFORE making that determination of designed or not. This has been explained to JVL so many times it is clear that he is just an infantile troll ET
JVL:
Please show how it can be determined, objectively, that a biological structure is irreducibly complex.
By checking to see if the criteria are met, duh.
Does that mean you don’t have a test for unguided evolution?
No, it means that you are scientifically illiterate. And irreducible complexity is the test. Do try to follow along.
So, because you can’t imagine it or haven’t experienced it then it didn’t happen?
Imagination is not science. And no one has ever observed it nor experienced it. It definitely isn't in any peer-reviewed papers. Saying that accidental mutations produced a system to allow cells to guard against accidental mutations, is just stupid. So, without any evidentiary support for it, we can dismiss it and go with our knowledge of cause-and-effect relationships. Science 101. ET
Kairosfocus: I freely challenge, false. I suggest, it has been a priori imposed that this must have happened, not that we have empirically shown such. I know that's what you believe. Accordingly, I challenge you: Can I just point out that you cannot fill in those blanks either. So, for you to criticise unguided evolutionary theory for gaps that you can't address either is hypocritical. And, can I also just point out, at least unguided evolution researchers are trying to answer those questions. Are any ID researchers even attempting to address those issues? JVL
JVL:
I think the case has been made that life, as we know it, arose via unguided and undirected means.
I freely challenge, false. I suggest, it has been a priori imposed that this must have happened, not that we have empirically shown such. Accordingly, I challenge you: 1: How was this SHOWN to be the case ________ 2: Where _____ and when _______ 3: By whom ___________ 4: With what Nobel and/or other prizes ________ 5: To what headlines ___________ I strongly believe you cannot fill in those blanks. To compare, Wikipedia:
In biology, abiogenesis or the origin of life is the natural process by which life has arisen from non-living matter, such as simple organic compounds. [--> assumption, stated as if fact, typical] The prevailing scientific hypothesis [--> 50c word for guess, not demonstration] is that the transition from non-living to living entities was not a single event, but an evolutionary process [--> so how do we get reproduction before the cell] of increasing complexity that involved the formation of a habitable planet, the prebiotic synthesis of organic molecules, molecular self-replication, self-assembly, autocatalysis, and the emergence of cell membranes. Many proposals [--> guesses again] have been made for different stages of the process. The study of abiogenesis aims to determine [--> not, has determined] how pre-life chemical reactions gave rise to life under conditions strikingly different from those on Earth today. [--> and by what means] It primarily uses tools from biology and chemistry, with more recent approaches attempting a synthesis of many sciences. Life functions through the specialized chemistry of carbon and water, and builds largely upon four key families of chemicals: lipids for cell membranes, carbohydrates such as sugars, amino acids for protein metabolism, and nucleic acids, DNA and RNA for the mechanisms of heredity. Any successful theory of abiogenesis must explain [--> notice, intellectual IOU not an announced achievement] the origins and interactions of these classes of molecules. Many approaches to abiogenesis investigate how self-replicating molecules, or their components, came into existence. Researchers generally think that current life descends from an RNA world, although other self-replicating molecules may have preceded RNA. [--> they are still guessing]
NWE is telling:
The various scientific models are necessarily speculative. Proposals for the origin of life remain at the stage of hypotheses, meaning they are working assumptions for scientists researching how life began. If test results provide sufficient support for acceptance of a hypothesis, then that is the point at which it would become a theory. Origin of life studies is a limited field of research, despite its profound impact on biology and human understanding of the natural world. Progress in this field is generally slow and sporadic, though it still draws the attention of many due to the eminence of the question being investigated. A few facts give insight into the conditions in which life may have emerged, but the mechanisms by which non-life became life are still elusive.
KF kairosfocus
ET: Irreducible complexity: Please show how it can be determined, objectively, that a biological structure is irreducibly complex. It is up to YOU to provide a way to test YOUR claims. What is wrong with you? Does that mean you don't have a test for unguided evolution? I'm sure you said you did. One you could apply to ID as well. Only sheer desperation, guided by delusions, says that blind and mindless processes can produce such things. Really? So, because you can't imagine it or haven't experienced it then it didn't happen? Is that your reasoning? JVL
Again, for the learning impaired: Immaterial information within cells is the only explanation for error detection, error correction, editing and splicing. It is the only explanation for the assembly of multi-protein structures. Why? All of that requires knowledge. How do I know this? 100% of all of our observations and experiences says so. Only sheer desperation, guided by delusions, says that blind and mindless processes can produce such things. ET
JVL:
Except that, without a designer, it’s all about unguided evolution.
Except that isn't how science works. Perhaps you should just shut up.
And, since you haven’t provided it, there seemingly isn’t a ‘test’ for unguided evolution.
It is up to YOU to provide a way to test YOUR claims. What is wrong with you? ET
JVL:
Let’s start with your test that can be used on ID and unguided evolution.
Irreducible complexity:
IC- A system performing a given basic function is irreducibly complex if it includes a set of well-matched, mutually interacting, non-arbitrarily individuated parts such that each part in the set is indispensable to maintaining the system’s basic, and therefore original, function. The set of these indispensable parts is known as the irreducible core of the system. Page 285 NFL Numerous and Diverse Parts If the irreducible core of an IC system consists of one or only a few parts, there may be no insuperable obstacle to the Darwinian mechanism explaining how that system arose in one fell swoop. But as the number of indispensable well-fitted, mutually interacting, non-arbitrarily individuated parts increases in number & diversity, there is no possibility of the Darwinian mechanism achieving that system in one fell swoop. Page 287 Minimal Complexity and Function Given an IC system with numerous & diverse parts in its core, the Darwinian mechanism must produce it gradually. But if the system needs to operate at a certain minimal level of function before it can be of any use to the organism & if to achieve that level of function it requires a certain minimal level of complexity already possessed by the irreducible core, the Darwinian mechanism has no functional intermediates to exploit. Page 287
Then there is the fact that ID's concepts of evolution are being used in genetic algorithms. No one uses evolution by means of blind and mindless processes for anything. ET
ET: Except none of that has anything to do with unguided evolution. Not one of your “predictions” has anything to do with unguided evolution. You can change “unguided evolution” with telic evolution and nothing changes. Except that, without a designer, it's all about unguided evolution. And, since you haven't provided it, there seemingly isn't a 'test' for unguided evolution. One that can be applied to ID as well. You said you had one. Where is it? This is the problem. You don’t have any clue at all. Science is definitely not your forte. Your should work on providing the test you claimed you had that could be applied to ID and unguided evolution. Where is it? Read the paper that I inked to that measures functional sequence complexity. Submit your rebuttal to peer-review Provide the test you said you had which you can apply to ID and unguided evolution. And, while you're at it, see if you can find the extra programming you've claimed for years exists in cells but which no one has found. And explain how it affects development. JVL
JVL:
I think the case has been made that life, as we know it, arose via unguided and undirected means.
We know that you are unable to think. No such case has ever been made. Read the paper that I inked to that measures functional sequence complexity. Submit your rebuttal to peer-review ET
Nevermind. I found JVL's equivocation:
Unguided evolution predicts that bacteria will gain resistance to antibiotics. Unguided evolution predicts that there will be ‘arms races’ between prey and predators. Unguided evolution predicts that there will be convergent evolution, that is similar functionality will evolve in different lineages along different pathways.
Except none of that has anything to do with unguided evolution. Not one of your "predictions" has anything to do with unguided evolution. You can change "unguided evolution" with telic evolution and nothing changes. Thanks to unguided evolution evolutionary biologists don't even know what determines biological form! Given populations of prokaryotes there aren't any naturalistic mechanisms capable of producing eukaryotes. This is the problem. You don't have any clue at all. Science is definitely not your forte. ET
ET: Where did JVL post these alleged predictions of evolution by means of blind and mindless processes? A comment # would be nice. Go look. Or shut up. Your call. JVL
Where did JVL post these alleged predictions of evolution by means of blind and mindless processes? A comment # would be nice. ET
Kairosfocus: Go, show an observed cases where say 500 bits of functional DNA are composed by blind chance and mechanical necessity without intelligent direction, whether in DNA or a random document generation exercise that does not sneak intelligence in the back door as weasel and kin do. That is, find an island of function. I think the case has been made that life, as we know it, arose via unguided and undirected means. You know I think that so what are you asking for? Stuff you already acknowledge you disagree with. We know we disagree on this. What do you want? What I'd like is for you to show me an application of your complex, specified information detection algorithm given an input provided by me. Okay? Can you do that? JVL
JVL, you too, that's disappointing. But if you have to pick on that strawman it is an implicit acknowledgement that naturalism does not have much of a case. Just for one example, FSCO/I will only be seen to be caused by intelligently directed configuration. Go, show an observed cases where say 500 bits of functional DNA are composed by blind chance and mechanical necessity without intelligent direction, whether in DNA or a random document generation exercise that does not sneak intelligence in the back door as weasel and kin do. That is, find an island of function. KF kairosfocus
Kairosfocus: In that context, Dembski’s use of CSI is an elaboration and generalisation on Orgel et al, as is evident save to the adamant objector. Let me clip, the discussion also echoes statistical thermodynamics: Fine. If I give you a sequence of symbols can you apply that criteria? I'd just like to see it 'in action' so to speak. JVL
ET: And it is very telling that neither JVL nor Fred posted any alleged predictions borne from evolution by means of blind and mindless processes. I did. You're just not paying attention. AND I didn't see the test that can be applied to ID and unguided evolution. A testable hypothesis is not the same thing. You really do need to keep up with your claims. JVL
Finally, some have said we should have used the ancestral enzyme as our starting point, because they believe modern enzymes are somehow different from ancient ones. Why do they think that? It’s because modern enzymes can’t be coopted to anything except trivial changes in function. In other words, they don’t evolve! That is precisely the point we are making.,, https://evolutionnews.org/2014/12/a_new_paper_fro/
bornagain77
Earth to chuckdarwin- Just saying it doesn't make it so. And that hypothesis is the same type as used by archaeologists and forensic scientists. ET
Many people do not understand what a symbol means. We have the word "dog" that is the symbol of a real dog. There is no deterministic causality between word "dog"(symbol) and a real dog . A real dog don't tell you that it is "a dog" , don't create the word dog so between the animal and d,o,g letters there is no causal link it's a CONVENTION that is created by 3rd party to link an animal with its symbol "dog". It's a convention because could be called different without losing it's meaning in its system(the word dog in chinese it's a different symbol ).In the cell same thing happens with 3 DNA bases (word "dog" ) that are the symbol of an amino acid (a real dog). The same convention happens in the cell (but infinitely more complex) because in the cell the word "dog" (=3 bases ) is the blueprint that "will build" a real dog(3D protein) . How is that working? How would be to build a real computer from the words "Personal Computer"? This kind of technology exists in cell . Lieutenant Commander Data
ET/168 Your so-called "testable" hypothesis is nothing more than a circular argument..... chuckdarwin
ET, I would add, there are trillions of observed cases of FSCO/I by intelligently directed configuration, indeed all actually observed cases are by this means. Including objecting comments in this thread. As objectors know or should acknowledge. KF kairosfocus
FH, the problem there is first you have to get TO functional sequences and linked functional organisation. That is why Darwin's pond or the like is central. That, as Smithsonian admitted, is the root of the tree of life. No root, no shoots. KF kairosfocus
The testable hypothesis for ID is as follows: 1) High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design. 2) Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity. 3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity. 4) Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems. And that is by far more than evolution by means of blind and mindless processes can muster. My response (111) to Fred's clueless attempt at a rebuttal (90) proves that Fred doesn't understand science. ET
Neither Allan Miller nor anyone else over on TSZ can explain how blind and mindless processes produced any functional sequence complexity. The point remains that CSI can be quantified. ET
There's a succinct point made by one Allan Miller in the comments of Swamidass's thread:
But the main thrust is the unreliability of using a set of surviving and commonly descended sequences as if it were an unbiased sample of an entire space.
link Fred Hickson
Swamidass:
Here, one of my brilliant MD PhD students and I study one of the “information” arguments against evolution.
Moron. It is NOT an argument against evolution. It is an argument against evolution by means of blind and mindless processes. Swamidass is the worst type of Christian who bears false witness ET
Earth to Fred- Swamidass is an equivocator. And he NEVER demonstrates that blind and mindless processes can produce any proteins. ET
Rob Davis, aka Timmy Horton:
ID proponents consist of three major groups.
And each of those groups is more intelligent and scientifically literate than you will ever be. You are a coward's coward. Even when you were surrounded by other evoTARDs you were too chicken to ante up and debate me on which side has the science and which side is full of droolers, like you. Even when one of the swamp minions was ready to ante up, he was exposed as an equivocating coward and ran away. ET
Ah yes, it was Joshua Swamidass and this paper https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/114132v2 Discussed here: http://theskepticalzone.com/wp/evolution-and-functional-information/comment-page-1/#comments I see Kirk Durston joined in an earlier discussion here: http://theskepticalzone.com/wp/how-not-to-sample-protein-space/comment-page-1/#comments Fred Hickson
FH, you seem to want to pose hyperskeptically on oh there is no meaning to functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information, taking the general form, complex specified information as meaningless. The reality is, just to pose objections you generated, intelligently, ASCII text strings at 7 bits of FSCO/I per character, showing cases in point. D/RNA is related, actually expressing algorithms using coded alphanumeric symbolic elements. Where, this is language. Crick knew that in the 50's as you were shown from his March 19 1953 letter to his son, but refuse to acknowledge. Orgel as cited above pretty much said the same in 1973, twenty years later. Wicken said the same. Nor is such a surprise, the genetic code is well known, as is the fact that last I checked there were about two dozen dialects. Rather as BASIC had ever so many dialects. As to definition on strings, as configuration based functional organisation is describable through description languages [think, AutoCAD], discussion on strings is WLOG. In that context, Dembski's use of CSI is an elaboration and generalisation on Orgel et al, as is evident save to the adamant objector. Let me clip, the discussion also echoes statistical thermodynamics:
CONCEPT: NFL, p. 148:“The great myth of contemporary evolutionary biology is that the information needed to explain complex biological structures can be purchased without intelligence. My aim throughout this book is to dispel that myth . . . . Eigen and his colleagues must have something else in mind besides information simpliciter when they describe the origin of information as the central problem of biology. I submit that what they have in mind is specified complexity [cf. p 144 as cited below], or what equivalently we have been calling in this Chapter Complex Specified information or CSI . . . . Biological specification always refers to function. An organism is a functional system comprising many functional subsystems. . . . In virtue of their function [a living organism's subsystems] embody patterns that are objectively given and can be identified independently of the systems that embody them. Hence these systems are specified in the sense required by the complexity-specificity criterion . . . the specification can be cashed out in any number of ways
[through observing the requisites of functional organisation within the cell, or in organs and tissues or at the level of the organism as a whole. Dembski cites: Wouters, p. 148: "globally in terms of the viability of whole organisms," Behe, p. 148: "minimal function of biochemical systems," Dawkins, pp. 148 - 9: "Complicated things have some quality, specifiable in advance, that is highly unlikely to have been acquired by ran-| dom chance alone. In the case of living things, the quality that is specified in advance is . . . the ability to propagate genes in reproduction." On p. 149, he roughly cites Orgel's famous remark on specified complexity from 1973, which exactly cited reads: " In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . ." And, p. 149, he highlights Paul Davis in The Fifth Miracle: "Living organisms are mysterious not for their complexity per se, but for their tightly specified complexity."] . . .”
DEFINITION: p. 144: [Specified complexity can be more formally defined:] “. . . since a universal probability bound of 1 [chance] in 10^150 corresponds to a universal complexity bound of 500 bits of information, [the cluster] (T, E) constitutes CSI because T [effectively the target hot zone in the field of possibilities] subsumes E [effectively the observed event from that field], T is detachable from E, and and T measures at least 500 bits of information . . . ”
Just for completeness, let's make a bridge:
let us consider a source that emits symbols from a vocabulary: s1,s2, s3, . . . sn, with probabilities p1, p2, p3, . . . pn. That is, in a "typical" long string of symbols, of size M [say this web page], the average number that are some sj, J, will be such that the ratio J/M --> pj, and in the limit attains equality. We term pj the a priori -- before the fact -- probability of symbol sj. Then, when a receiver detects sj, the question arises as to whether this was sent. [That is, the mixing in of noise means that received messages are prone to misidentification.] If on average, sj will be detected correctly a fraction, dj of the time, the a posteriori -- after the fact -- probability of sj is by a similar calculation, dj. So, we now define the information content of symbol sj as, in effect how much it surprises us on average when it shows up in our receiver: I = log [dj/pj], in bits [if the log is base 2, log2] . . . Eqn 1 This immediately means that the question of receiving information arises AFTER an apparent symbol sj has been detected and decoded. That is, the issue of information inherently implies an inference to having received an intentional signal in the face of the possibility that noise could be present. Second, logs are used in the definition of I, as they give an additive property: for, the amount of information in independent signals, si + sj, using the above definition, is such that: I total = Ii + Ij . . . Eqn 2 For example, assume that dj for the moment is 1, i.e. we have a noiseless channel so what is transmitted is just what is received. Then, the information in sj is: I = log [1/pj] = - log pj . . . Eqn 3 This case illustrates the additive property as well, assuming that symbols si and sj are independent. That means that the probability of receiving both messages is the product of the probability of the individual messages (pi *pj); so: Itot = log1/(pi *pj) = [-log pi] + [-log pj] = Ii + Ij . . . Eqn 4 So if there are two symbols, say 1 and 0, and each has probability 0.5, then for each, I is - log [1/2], on a base of 2, which is 1 bit. (If the symbols were not equiprobable, the less probable binary digit-state would convey more than, and the more probable, less than, one bit of information. Moving over to English text, we can easily see that E is as a rule far more probable than X, and that Q is most often followed by U. So, X conveys more information than E, and U conveys very little, though it is useful as redundancy, which gives us a chance to catch errors and fix them: if we see "wueen" it is most likely to have been "queen.") Further to this, we may average the information per symbol in the communication system thusly (giving in terms of -H to make the additive relationships clearer): - H = p1 log p1 + p2 log p2 + . . . + pn log pn or, H = - SUM [pi log pi] . . . Eqn 5 H, the average information per symbol transmitted [usually, measured as: bits/symbol], is often termed the Entropy; first, historically, because it resembles one of the expressions for entropy in statistical thermodynamics. As Connor notes: "it is often referred to as the entropy of the source." [p.81, emphasis added.] Also, while this is a somewhat controversial view in Physics, . . . there is in fact an informational interpretation of thermodynamics that shows that informational and thermodynamic entropy can be linked conceptually as well as in mere mathematical form. Though somewhat controversial even in quite recent years, this is becoming more broadly accepted in physics and information theory, as Wikipedia now discusses [as at April 2011] in its article on Informational Entropy (aka Shannon Information,. . . ):
At an everyday practical level the links between information entropy and thermodynamic entropy are not close. Physicists and chemists are apt to be more interested in changes in entropy as a system spontaneously evolves away from its initial conditions, in accordance with the second law of thermodynamics, rather than an unchanging probability distribution. And, as the numerical smallness of Boltzmann's constant kB indicates, the changes in S / kB for even minute amounts of substances in chemical and physical processes represent amounts of entropy which are so large as to be right off the scale compared to anything seen in data compression or signal processing. But, at a multidisciplinary level, connections can be made between thermodynamic and informational entropy, although it took many years in the development of the theories of statistical mechanics and information theory to make the relationship fully apparent. In fact, in the view of Jaynes (1957), thermodynamics should be seen as an application of Shannon's information theory: the thermodynamic entropy is interpreted as being an estimate of the amount of further Shannon information needed to define the detailed microscopic state of the system, that remains uncommunicated by a description solely in terms of the macroscopic variables of classical thermodynamics. For example, adding heat to a system increases its thermodynamic entropy because it increases the number of possible microscopic states that it could be in, thus making any complete state description longer. (See article: maximum entropy thermodynamics.[Also,another article remarks: >>in the words of G. N. Lewis writing about chemical entropy in 1930, "Gain in entropy always means loss of information, and nothing more" . . . in the discrete case using base two logarithms, the reduced Gibbs entropy is equal to the minimum number of yes/no questions that need to be answered in order to fully specify the microstate, given that we know the macrostate.>>]) Maxwell's demon can (hypothetically) reduce the thermodynamic entropy of a system by using information about the states of individual molecules; but, as Landauer (from 1961) and co-workers have shown, to function the demon himself must increase thermodynamic entropy in the process, by at least the amount of Shannon information he proposes to first acquire and store; and so the total entropy does not decrease (which resolves the paradox).
Summarising Harry Robertson's Statistical Thermophysics (Prentice-Hall International, 1993) -- excerpting desperately and adding emphases and explanatory comments, we can see, perhaps, that this should not be so surprising after all. (In effect, since we do not possess detailed knowledge of the states of the vary large number of microscopic particles of thermal systems [typically ~ 10^20 to 10^26; a mole of substance containing ~ 6.023*10^23 particles; i.e. the Avogadro Number], we can only view them in terms of those gross averages we term thermodynamic variables [pressure, temperature, etc], and so we cannot take advantage of knowledge of such individual particle states that would give us a richer harvest of work, etc.) For, as he astutely observes on pp. vii - viii:
. . . the standard assertion that molecular chaos exists is nothing more than a poorly disguised admission of ignorance, or lack of detailed information about the dynamic state of a system . . . . If I am able to perceive order, I may be able to use it to extract work from the system, but if I am unaware of internal correlations, I cannot use them for macroscopic dynamical purposes. On this basis, I shall distinguish heat from work, and thermal energy from other forms . . .
KF kairosfocus
"Our ability to be confident of the design of the cilium or intracellular transport rests on the same principles to be confident of the design of anything: the ordering of separate components to achieve an identifiable function that depends sharply on the components.” " Might there be some as-yet-undiscovered natural process that would explain biochemical complexity? No one would be foolish enough to categorically deny the possibility. Nonetheless, we can say that if there is such a process, no one has a clue how it would work. Further, it would go against all human experience, like postulating that a natural process might explain computers.” - Dr Michael Behe in "Darwin's Black Box" ET
Intelligent Design's concepts on evolution have proven useful in the form of genetic algorithms which are goal-oriented programs that use targeted searches to solve various problems. No one uses evolution by means of blind and mindless processes for anything beyond predicting genetic diseases and deformities. ET
And it is very telling that neither JVL nor Fred posted any alleged predictions borne from evolution by means of blind and mindless processes. That’s because blind and mindless processes only predicts genetic diseases and deformities. ET
FH: "But I (Darwin) can find out no such case." And indeed Darwin was not a molecular biologist. Molecular biology wasn't even a science then. So he could have known of no 'case'. But Axe is a molecular biologist and has such 'cases',
“Charles Darwin said (paraphrase) “If anyone could find anything that could not be had through a number of slight, successive, modifications my theory would absolutely breakdown.” Well, that condition has been met time and time again now. Basically every gene and every new protein fold, there is nothing of significance that we can show that can be had in that gradualistic way. It’s all a mirage. None of it happens that way.” – Douglas Axe – 200 Years After Darwin – What Didn’t Darwin Know? – (5:30 minute mark) video – Part 2 of 2 https://youtu.be/VKIgNroTj54?t=329 "Enzyme Families -- Shared Evolutionary History or Shared Design?" - Ann Gauger - December 4, 2014 Excerpt: If enzymes can't be recruited to genuinely new functions by unguided means, no matter how similar they are, the evolutionary story is false.,,, Taken together, since we found no enzyme that was within one mutation of cooption, the total number of mutations needed is at least four: one for duplication, one for over-production, and two or more single base changes. The waiting time required to achieve four mutations is 10^15 years. That's longer than the age of the universe. The real waiting time is likely to be much greater, since the two most likely candidate enzymes failed to be coopted by double mutations. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/12/a_new_paper_fro091701.html Claim: New Proteins Evolve Very Easily - Cornelius Hunter - April 25, 2017 Excerpt:  It is now clear that for a given protein, only a few changes to its amino acid sequence can be sustained before the protein function is all but eliminated. Here is how one paper explained it: “The accepted paradigm that proteins can tolerate nearly any amino acid substitution has been replaced by the view that the deleterious effects of mutations, and especially their tendency to undermine the thermodynamic and kinetic stability of protein, is a major constraint on protein evolvability—the ability of proteins to acquire changes in sequence and function.” In other words, protein function precipitously drops off with only a tiny fraction of its amino acids altered. It is not a gradual fitness landscape. Another paper described the protein fitness landscape as rugged. Therefore it is not surprising that various studies on evolving proteins have failed to show a viable mechanism. One study concluded that 10^63 attempts would be required to evolve a relatively short protein. And a similar result (10^65 attempts required) was obtained by comparing protein sequences. Another study found that 10^64 to 10^77 attempts are required, and another study concluded that 10^70 attempts would be required. So something like 10^70 attempts are required yet evolutionists estimate that only 10^43 attempts are possible. In other words, there is a shortfall of 27 orders of magnitude. But it gets worse. The estimate that 10^43 attempts are possible is utterly unrealistic. For it assumes billions of years are available, and that for that entire time the Earth is covered with bacteria, constantly churning out mutations and new protein experiments. Aside from the fact that these assumptions are entirely unrealistic, the estimate also suffers from the rather inconvenient fact that those bacteria are, err, full of proteins. In other word, for evolution to evolve proteins, they must already exist in the first place. This is absurd. And yet, even with these overly optimistic assumptions, evolution falls short by 27 orders of magnitude. https://www.evolutionnews.org/2017/04/claim-new-proteins-evolve-very-easily/ Right of Reply: Our Response to Jerry Coyne - September 29, 2019 by Günter Bechly, Brian Miller and David Berlinski Excerpt: David Gelernter observed that amino acid sequences that correspond to functional proteins are remarkably rare among the “space” of all possible combinations of amino acid sequences of a given length. Protein scientists call this set of all possible amino acid sequences or combinations “amino acid sequence space” or “combinatorial sequence space.” Gelernter made reference to this concept in his review of Meyer and Berlinski’s books. He also referenced the careful experimental work by Douglas Axe who used a technique known as site-directed mutagenesis to assess the rarity of protein folds in sequence space while he was working at Cambridge University from 1990-2003. Axe showed that the ratio of sequences in sequence space that will produce protein folds to sequences that won’t is prohibitively and vanishingly small. Indeed, in an authoritative paper published in the Journal of Molecular Biology Axe estimated that ratio at 1 in 10^74. From that information about the rarity of protein folds in sequence space, Gelernter—like Axe, Meyer and Berlinski—has drawn the rational conclusion: finding a novel protein fold by a random search is implausible in the extreme. Not so, Coyne argued. Proteins do not evolve from random sequences. They evolve by means of gene duplication. By starting from an established protein structure, protein evolution had a head start. This is not an irrational position, but it is anachronistic. Indeed, Harvard mathematical biologist Martin Nowak has shown that random searches in sequence space that start from known functional sequences are no more likely to enter regions in sequence space with new protein folds than searches that start from random sequences. The reason for this is clear: random searches are overwhelmingly more likely to go off into a non-folding, non-functional abyss than they are to find a novel protein fold. Why? Because such novel folds are so extraordinarily rare in sequence space. Moreover, as Meyer explained in Darwin’s Doubt, as mutations accumulate in functional sequences, they will inevitably destroy function long before they stumble across a new protein fold. Again, this follows from the extreme rarity (as well as the isolation) of protein folds in sequence space. Recent work by Weizmann Institute protein scientist Dan Tawfik has reinforced this conclusion. Tawfik’s work shows that as mutations to functional protein sequences accumulate, the folds of those proteins become progressively more thermodynamically and structurally unstable. Typically, 15 or fewer mutations will completely destroy the stability of known protein folds of average size. Yet, generating (or finding) a new protein fold requires far more amino acid sequence changes than that. Finally, calculations based on Tawfik’s work confirm and extend the applicability of Axe’s original measure of the rarity of protein folds. These calculations confirm that the measure of rarity that Axe determined for the protein he studied is actually representative of the rarity for large classes of other globular proteins. Not surprisingly, Dan Tawfik has described the origination of a truly novel protein or fold as “something like close to a miracle.” Tawfik is on Coyne’s side: He is mainstream. https://quillette.com/2019/09/29/right-of-reply-our-response-to-jerry-coyne/ "A Thermodynamic Analysis of the Rarity of Protein Folds" by Dr. Brian Miller - 2019 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvSpN_3tFN4 “Research by Douglas Axe demonstrated that amino acid sequences that correspond to a functional beta-lactamase protein fold are extremely rare. In response, critics have raised questions related to the accuracy of his analysis. This presentation describes how more recent research on the effects of mutations on the thermodynamic stability of protein folds has confirmed Axe’s result and its general relevance to most proteins."
bornagain77
This popped up while looking for the discussion on Durston. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/why-theres-no-such-thing-as-a-csi-scanner-or-reasonable-and-unreasonable-demands-relating-to-complex-specified-information/ What happened to Vincent Torley? Fred Hickson
"Some unknown naturalistic processes did something", is NOT the makings of a scientific theory. And that is what Darwin offered. That is what we still have today. ET
JVL, statistical thermodynamics rules the roost for molecular scale phenomena. As you know. In this case, it helps us distinguish bare logical or physical possibility from plausibly observable phenomena. A fluctuation in which all of the Oxygen molecules in your room spontaneously go to one end for an appreciable time is strictly possible but not plausibly observable in the cosmos' lifespan 10^25 s. Similarly, Darwin's "could not possibly" as cited, smuggles in bare physical or logical possibility and uses it to award effective default to his theory; making it empirically immune to testing. That is not sound science. And, the chain of utterly implausible things required to get to spontaneous OoL and Oo body plans, alike, falls under the same challenge. This of course has been pointed out by modern design theory since Thaxton et al. Remember, the heart of TMLO is thermodynamics. KF kairosfocus
Fred Hickson:
So what did? “Intelligent Design” offers no clue, apparently.
No, Fred. YOU don't have any clue, obviously. You clearly don't understand how science operates. ET
Natural selection does not select. JVL doesn't even understand the basics. The paper "waiting for TWO mutations" proves that cumulative selection nis nothing more than wishful thinking. AGAIN:
In the spring of 1982 I was invited to the Pius IV Pavilion in the Vatican gardens for a meeting of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences. The subject was the evolution of primates. At the close of the meeting everyone felt that some conclusion should be drawn, and the South African paleontologist Phillip Tobias proposed a motion to the effect that the origin of man and the primates was covered by the theory of evolution. Jerome Lejeune, the French cytologist, objected: “There is not theory of evolution!”. No one disagreed, and the meeting concluded with a Solomonic pronouncement that the evidence renders the application of the concept of divergent descent to man and other primates beyond dispute. There never really has been a scientific “theory” of evolution.– Giuseppe Sermonti, geneticist and former editor of a peer-reviewed journal
ET
I presented a testable hypothesis for Intelligent Design. Fred choked on it because Fred is a scientifically illiterate coward. ET
ET: Again, Darwin did NOT understand reproduction. He didn’t understand genetics. Of course he didn't understand genetics! No one said he did. He certainly did understand that variation can be inherited. Look, the only difference between breeding for a certain trait or characteristic and natural selection is what is doing the 'selecting' and whether or not there is a conscious goal. In both cases new types are formed over generations of cumulative selection. That's because the variation IS NOT part of the selection. It's what selection works with. So, what is the test for unguided evolution that you want to use? The one that can also be used on ID? Can you use it to find the extra programming you're so fond of trusting is there? Neither Darwin, nor anyone else since, has demonstrated there is a step-by-step pathway from prokaryotes to eukaryotes. The same goes for sexual reproduction. The same goes for any bacterial flagellum. The list is very, very long No one claims to know the individual steps yet. But, all the evidence, all the data, the multiple, converging threads of data are consistent with unguided natural processes. And it is very telling that neither JVL nor Fred posted any alleged predictions borne from evolution by means of blind and mindless processes. That’s because blind and mindless processes only predicts genetic diseases and deformities. Not at all. Unguided evolution predicts that bacteria will gain resistance to antibiotics. Unguided evolution predicts that there will be 'arms races' between prey and predators. Unguided evolution predicts that there will be convergent evolution, that is similar functionality will evolve in different lineages along different pathways. Unguided evolution predicts that the results found in Dr Lenski's work will be observed in particular that some strains will gain an adaptation to conditions and others will not. Which is something you're programming can't account for . . . why did only one strain change but not the others? Unguided evolution predicts ring species. Unguided evolution predicts odd adaptations like the giraffe's laryngeal nerve and the human retina which is backwards from many other species. Unguided evolution predicts that some different species will have different numbers of colour receptors in their eyes. Unguided evolution predicts that some species will have more 'junk' DNA than others. ID predicts nothing because no one knows what the designer was trying to accomplish, when design was implemented, how design has been maintained and directed over billions of years. In fact, ID proponents are very, very careful NOT to say anything about the designer . . . they want God back in science but don't want to be accused of such. The plan is, I assume, to spring that on everyone once ID is taught in biology classes. IF ID is ever taught in biology classes. Let's start with your test that can be used on ID and unguided evolution. Go on . . . JVL
Neither Darwin, nor anyone else since, has demonstrated there is a step-by-step pathway from prokaryotes to eukaryotes. The same goes for sexual reproduction. The same goes for any bacterial flagellum. The list is very, very long And it is very telling that neither JVL nor Fred posted any alleged predictions borne from evolution by means of blind and mindless processes. That's because blind and mindless processes only predicts genetic diseases and deformities. ET
Fred Hickson doesn't know what a scientific theory entails. Not one of his links are to a scientific theory of evolution. ET
JVL:
Perhaps you should review Darwin’s work where he clearly understood and stated that working with inherited variation cumulative NATURAL SELECTION slowly, step-by-step, created new species.
Again, Darwin did NOT understand reproduction. He didn't understand genetics.
Can ID be tested with the same criteria?
Absolutely. Look, JVL, you are a scientifically illiterate troll ET
Thank you, Fred, for proving that you are a willfully ignorant and scientifically illiterate coward. Anyone who understands CSI knows that CSI and FSC are the same. ET
Here ya go: Measuring the functional sequence complexity of proteins– those who are not willfully ignorant understand that functional sequence complexity is complex specified information.
Initial nitpick. Functional sequence complexity? Is that synonymous with complex specified information? Anyway some bells are ringing over Durston's 2007 paper. I think this has been done to death elsewhere. Fred Hickson
In the spring of 1982 I was invited to the Pius IV Pavilion in the Vatican gardens for a meeting of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences. The subject was the evolution of primates. At the close of the meeting everyone felt that some conclusion should be drawn, and the South African paleontologist Phillip Tobias proposed a motion to the effect that the origin of man and the primates was covered by the theory of evolution. Jerome Lejeune, the French cytologist, objected: "There is not theory of evolution!". No one disagreed, and the meeting concluded with a Solomonic pronouncement that the evidence renders the application of the concept of divergent descent to man and other primates beyond dispute. There never really has been a scientific "theory" of evolution.- Giuseppe Sermonti, geneticist and former editor of a peer-reviewed journal
ET
ET: Darwin’s wasn’t a scientific theory. He didn’t understand the workings of the cell. He didn’t understand reproduction. So, all he had was “some unknown natural processes did something”. And that is not the makings of a scientific theory. Perhaps you should review Darwin's work where he clearly understood and stated that working with inherited variation cumulative NATURAL SELECTION slowly, step-by-step, created new species. Of course, things have moved on a lot since then, we now know what carries inheritable variation. We now know there are other kinds of selection and influences. But Darwin got the basic outline correct. And saying how to falsify something is NOT the same as saying how to test it. He NEVER said how to test the claim that blind and mindless processes could produce any bacterial flagellum because he didn’t have any clue Of course he didn't speak about the flagellum! He didn't know they existed! So, what do you mean by test then? Can ID be tested with the same criteria? He didn’t say how to test the claim that blind and mindless processes produced eukaryoytes because he didn’t have any clue. Again, what do you mean by test? He supported his theory with lots and lots of evidence, it became accepted by the biological community after quite a bit of opposition, he mentioned ways to falsify his theory. What testing do you want? Umm, Darwin was ignorant of cellular biology. However, today science has uncovered many such structures that no one on this planet can demonstrate that blind and mindless processes produced them. That doesn't mean they were designed just because we don't know every single unguided step that created them. We weren't there to observe it happening so we can never say for absolute sure how it happened but we can check parts of plausible pathways. JVL
Again, there isn’t any scientific theory of evolution.
https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/theory-evolution http://darwin-online.org.uk/Variorum/1860/1860-189-c-1859.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_synthesis_(20th_century) Fred Hickson
Fred Hickson:
And, no, you can’t tell me how to quantize the CSI of any biological system.
Your willful ignorance is not an argument. And all you have is your ignorance. Here ya go: Measuring the functional sequence complexity of proteins- those who are not willfully ignorant understand that functional sequence complexity is complex specified information. And for those cowards who don't like the paper, we await your rebuttal in peer-review. ET
Again, there isn't any scientific theory of evolution. No one can reference it. No one can say who authored it. No one can say when and where it was published. No one can say what predictions are borne from blind and mindless processes. JVL, Fred and Rob are all scientifically illiterate cowards. ET
Umm, Darwin was ignorant of cellular biology. However, today science has uncovered many such structures that no one on this planet can demonstrate that blind and mindless processes produced them.
So what did? "Intelligent Design" offers no clue, apparently. Fred Hickson
OK so LCD can't answer a straight question either. I repeat: The best way to refute my claim that there is no testable scientific hypothesis of “Intelligent Design” that proposes an alternative explanation for observed biological reality is to present one. The best way to show that complex specified information can be used to measure biological systems in some quantitative way is to present the calculation. Anyone? Fred Hickson
Fred Hickson is clueless- quoting Darwin:
But I can find out no such case.
Umm, Darwin was ignorant of cellular biology. However, today science has uncovered many such structures that no one on this planet can demonstrate that blind and mindless processes produced them. ET
The best way to refute my claim that there is no testable scientific hypothesis of “Intelligent Design” that proposes an alternative explanation for observed biological reality is to present one.
:)A proven false claim doesn't became true if there are no alternative explanations. So if there would be only the darwinian evolution as explanation (no other known alternatives like ID or ET civilisations ) and that explanation is proven false then should be discarded not "considered" true until other explanations emerge. Darwinism is proven false but somehow is kept in the school books to brainwash children to become atheists . Why? Because is an ideology and not a science. It's a make belief ideology like the new transgender ideology that started to produce transgender people AFTER was taught in the school. Same method used for creating atheists(darwinism) now is used to create atheists that think they are the opposite sex. This is insanity and the country that allows that to happen is a sick country and not an example for other countries. https://twitter.com/AldoButtazzoni/status/1533178289229004800 Lieutenant Commander Data
There is no testable scientific hypothesis of evolution by means of blind and mindless processes. JVL
I don’t understand why you keep saying that.
It's true. And saying how to falsify something is NOT the same as saying how to test it. He NEVER said how to test the claim that blind and mindless processes could produce any bacterial flagellum because he didn't have any clue. He didn't say how to test the claim that blind and mindless processes produced eukaryoytes because he didn't have any clue. You clearly are just desperate and delusional ET
Earth to JVL- Darwin's wasn't a scientific theory. He didn't understand the workings of the cell. He didn't understand reproduction. So, all he had was "some unknown natural processes did something". And that is not the makings of a scientific theory. ET
Fred Hickson:
Back to a testable scientific hypothesis of “Intelligent Design”.
You choked on it because you are a scientifically illiterate coward. ET
Kairosfocus: the trick was in the could not possibly he used. What? I can't parse that. Statistical thermodynamics tells us, it is possible for every oxygen molecule in the room you are in to rush to one end. However, such is not plausibly observable on the lifespan of the cosmos. And that has WHAT to do with the conversation? Kindly explain to us how on observed so plausible dynamics, cell based life came about through blind chance and mechanical necessity, including the language, coded algorithms and proteins created through DNA, and the cellular process flow metabolic network as well as encapsulation with smart gating. No one can explain it, as well you know. BUT that doesn't mean you get design by default, as well you know. That would be a false argument. Plus, not knowing how something happened via certain methods doesn't mean it didn't happen via those methods, as well you know. Also, let me point out, that you cannot explain in detail how life came about either. You say some intelligent designer did it but you can't say when or how. Also, you only have one, slender, thread of evidence, contested by the way, that supports design. Unguided evolution has multiple, independent threads of evidence all of which converge on the same conclusion and are consistent with that conclusion. Please don't repeat your oft used phrases such as 'hyperskepticism' and 'warranted in the teeth of' or 'the something in the room' or 'islands of function'; we've heard them all before. Do you have anything new to add except to claim that a certain amount of what you perceive to be FCSI is a slam dunk for design? You know that not convinced very many people in the past and it's not likely to change anyone's mind now. Have you got anything new? JVL
Bornagain77: Indeed he did. And, as far as I am aware, these are the four lines of evidence that Darwin himself offered that could potentially falsify his theory: Don't tell ET. And don't call it a 'theory' as apparently there isn't one for unguided evolution. JVL
FH, you know you have it, intelligently directed configuration, where you also know genetic engineering and associated molecular nanotechnology are facts, just ponder the name Venter. More doubling down on falsities. KF
So, no, you can't tell me of any scientific, testable hypothesis based on "Intelligent Design". And, no, you can't tell me how to quantize the CSI of any biological system. Fred Hickson
“If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.” –Charles Darwin, Origin of Species – 1860 – pg 189
And the very next sentence is: But I can find out no such case. http://darwin-online.org.uk/Variorum/1860/1860-189-c-1859.html Fred Hickson
JVL, the trick was in the could not possibly he used. This imposed a default by the back door. Statistical thermodynamics tells us, it is possible for every oxygen molecule in the room you are in to rush to one end. However, such is not plausibly observable on the lifespan of the cosmos. Kindly explain to us how on observed so plausible dynamics, cell based life came about through blind chance and mechanical necessity, including the language, coded algorithms and proteins created through DNA, and the cellular process flow metabolic network as well as encapsulation with smart gating. As a mere corollary explain chirality. That gets you to the root of the tree of life so you can go on to the much worse information challenge of explaining origin of main body plans then of mind. KF PS, just to be clear, let me borrow from BA77 (who so many proudly but ill advisedly announce they studiously ignore):
“If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.” –Charles Darwin, Origin of Species – 1860 – pg 189 “Charles Darwin said (paraphrase) “If anyone could find anything that could not be had through a number of slight, successive, modifications my theory would absolutely breakdown.” Well, that condition has been met time and time again now. Basically every gene and every new protein fold, there is nothing of significance that we can show that can be had in that gradualistic way. It’s all a mirage. None of it happens that way.” – Douglas Axe – 200 Years After Darwin – What Didn’t Darwin Know? – (5:30 minute mark) video – Part 2 of 2 https://youtu.be/VKIgNroTj54?t=329
kairosfocus
FH, you know you have it, intelligently directed configuration, where you also know genetic engineering and associated molecular nanotechnology are facts, just ponder the name Venter. More doubling down on falsities. KF kairosfocus
JVL states "even Darwin himself mentioned ways it (his theory) could be tested or falsified," Indeed he did. And, as far as I am aware, these are the four lines of evidence that Darwin himself offered that could potentially falsify his theory:
“If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.” –Charles Darwin, Origin of Species – 1860 – pg 189 “to the question why we do not find rich fossiliferous deposits belonging to these assumed earliest periods prior to the Cambrian system, I can give no satisfactory answer.” So “the case at present must remain inexplicable; and may be truly urged as a valid argument against the views here entertained.” – Charles Darwin – Origin of Species – 1860 – pg 308 “If it could be proved that any part of the structure of any one species had been formed for the exclusive good of another species, it would annihilate my theory, for such could not have been produced through natural selection.” – Charles Darwin, Origin of Species – 1866 – pg. 241 “The foregoing remarks lead me to say a few words on the protest lately made by some naturalists, against the utilitarian doctrine that every detail of structure has been produced for the good of its possessor. They believe that very many structures have been created for beauty in the eyes of man, or for mere variety. This doctrine, if true, would be absolutely fatal to my theory.” – Charles Darwin Origin of Species – 1859 – pg. 199
And all four of those falsification criteria, laid out by Charles Darwin himself, have now been met (although Darwinists dogmatically, and unscientifically, steadfastly refuse to accept these empirical falsifications of their theory that Darwin himself laid out):
“Charles Darwin said (paraphrase) “If anyone could find anything that could not be had through a number of slight, successive, modifications my theory would absolutely breakdown.” Well, that condition has been met time and time again now. Basically every gene and every new protein fold, there is nothing of significance that we can show that can be had in that gradualistic way. It’s all a mirage. None of it happens that way.” – Douglas Axe – 200 Years After Darwin – What Didn’t Darwin Know? – (5:30 minute mark) video – Part 2 of 2 https://youtu.be/VKIgNroTj54?t=329 When Charles Darwin finished The Origin of Species, he thought that he had explained every clue, but one. Though his theory could explain many facts, Darwin knew that there was a significant event in the history of life that his theory did not explain. During this event, the Cambrian explosion, many animals suddenly appeared in the fossil record without apparent ancestors in earlier layers of rock. In Darwin s Doubt, Stephen C. Meyer tells the story of the mystery surrounding this explosion of animal life. A mystery that has intensified, https://www.amazon.com/Darwins-Doubt-Dilemma-Book-DVD/dp/B00FZ5DMIM/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Darwin%27s+doubt&qid=1654424167&s=movies-tv&sr=1-1 Darwin's Dilemma - The very "un-Darwinian" Cambrian Explosion - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxh9o32m5c0 Plant Galls and Evolution How More than Twelve Thousand1 Ugly Facts are Slaying a Beautiful Hypothesis: Darwinism2 Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig – 7 September 2017 Excerpt: in the case of the galls, in thousands of plant species often entirely new organs have been formed for the exclusive good of more than 132,930 other species, these ‘ugly facts’ have annihilated Darwin’s theory as well as the modern versions of it. The galls are not ‘useful to the possessor’, the plants. There is no space for these phenomena in the world of “the selfish gene” (Dawkins). Moreover, the same conclusion appears to be true for thousands of angiosperm species producing deceptive flowers (in contrast to gall formations, now for the exclusive good of the plant species) – a topic which should be carefully treated in another paper. http://www.weloennig.de/PlantGalls.pdf
As to the existence of beauty, in the Darwinian worldview beauty is considered 'illusory' and simply has no 'external reality'.
Beauty Evades the Clutches of Materialism – March 27, 2013 Excerpt: Evolutionary materialists must believe, at some level, that the experience of beauty can be reduced to actions of neurons in the brain. This would bring beauty into the purview of neuroscience — a subtopic known as neuroaesthetics — that could be probed and explained with the tools of science. If the materialists are right, the Prince doesn’t really love Cinderella because she is beautiful. She is beautiful to him because he loves her, and he loves her because certain neurons fire in response to a stimulus. Beauty is “merely” an experience in the physical brain, not an external reality. https://evolutionnews.org/2013/03/beauty_evades_t/
Yet, as these following two videos point out, we are literally surrounded by an 'external reality' of 'real' beauty.
Beauty, Darwin & Design – video - 2019 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ax-lkRoES8 The Biology of the Baroque – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FothcJW-Quo
In short, the existence of 'real' beauty is an argument for Theism and its 'real' existence, as Darwin himself conceded, is simply fatal to Darwin's theory.
"Beauty… can be appreciated only by the mind. This would be impossible, if this ‘idea’ of beauty were not found in the Mind in a more perfect form…. This consideration has readily persuaded men of ability and learning… that the original “idea” is not to be found in this sphere." (Augustine, City of God).
The argument for God from beauty can be succinctly stated like this,
1. If God does not exist then beauty does not objectively exist but it is merely illusory. 2. Beauty does objectively exist. 3. Therefore God exists.
Supplemental note:
The Reason Why God Is the Beauty We All Seek - Sept. 4, 2019 Excerpt: God loves beauty. As Thomas Aquinas asserts, God “is beauty itself”[1] St. Anselm argues that “God must be the supreme beauty for the same reasons that He must be justice and other such qualities.”[2] As the contemporary theologian Michael Horton so aptly states in his book The Christian Faith, “God would not be God if he did not possess all his attributes in the simplicity and perfection of his essence.”[3] The reason why we gravitate toward beauty is because God created us in his image.,,, In a chapel sermon titled, “Can Beauty Save the World,” Albert Mohler explains, "The Christian worldview posits that anything pure and good finds its ultimate source in the self-existent, omnipotent God who is infinite in all his perfections. Thus the Christian worldview reminds us that the “transcendentals”—the good, the true, and the beautiful—are inseparable. Thus when Psalm 27 speaks of the beauty of the Lord, the Psalmist is also making a claim about the goodness of the Lord and the truthfulness of the Lord. While we distinguish God’s attributes from one another in order to understand them better, we must also recognize that these attributes are inseparable from one another.[19]" Mohler goes on to state, “Our job as Christians is to remember the difference between the beautiful and the pretty,” because pure beauty is found in goodness and truth.[20] When we gaze upon ascetically pleasing objects or witness kind deeds in this world, we are at best seeing imperfect versions of the pure beauty that can only be found in God. https://www.beautifulchristianlife.com/blog/reason-why-god-is-the-beauty-we-all-seek
Verses:
Isaiah 33:17 Your eyes will see the king in his beauty and view a land that stretches afar. Philippians 4:8 Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.
bornagain77
GEM writes
FH, this is now selectively hyperskeptical denialism, oh what could it possibly mean to infer on tested reliable signs that the best current explanation of some object or state of affairs is intelligently designed configuration. Never mind, it includes the inference that the text we see in posts comes from such. As though abductive inference to the best explanation were some dubious idiosyncrasy rather than a major aspect of scientific, historical, forensic, managerial and common sense reasoning. Your rhetorical gambit cannot be sincere. KF
I repeat: The best way to refute my claim that there is no testable scientific hypothesis of "Intelligent Design" that proposes an alternative explanation for observed biological reality is to present one. The best way to show that complex specified information can be used to measure biological systems in some quantitative way is to present the calculation. Origin of Species confirms there is a theory of evolution, much modified and extended since Darwin's time. Fred Hickson
ET: There is no testable scientific hypothesis of evolution by means of blind and mindless processes. I don't understand why you keep saying that. As you very well know even Darwin himself mentioned ways it could be tested or falsified, finding an irreducibly complex structure is one way in particular. Every time someone finds a fossil it's a test of unguided evolution. And you yourself make similar statements about ID: all anyone has to do is to show natural processes could have 'done it'. The funny thing is: you can't or won't say what kind of evidence you would accept that unguided, natural processes are sufficient. If you mean to say that there is no 'scientific' theory of unguided evolution you also know that is not true; even Dr Behe admits there is a scientific theory of unguided evolution. And you know what the 'mechanisms' are, in part: natural selection, sexual selection, genetic drift, etc. You have not provided a mechanism for the implementation of design which is the real issue since design itself does nothing. Only implementation has an effect. You can't even say when design was implemented. Your notion of there being extra coding in the cell has not been shown to be true as no one can show where that programming is, how it is encoded biologically and how it affects development. You can't explain how life is 'programmed' to evolve, that is: how does the programming survive unaffected by copying errors over billions of years. Nor can you explain how the programming works under different environmental conditions . . . is it like some giant case statement with lots of options depending on surroundings. Or what? Can you explain how humans develop from infants to adults? Is that also through some extra programming (since you don't believe DNA affects phylogeny)? You don't have a 'theory' of intelligent design that actually explains anything. You just say: this and that looks designed, I can't understand how it could have happened via natural processes and stop asking me about when or how design is implemented because . . . well . . . there must be some . . . stuff inside cells which makes it all work even though no one can find it. Even you aren't looking for it. (Cue ET's calling me a liar and then absolutely refusing to accept any statement of the theory of unguided evolution without being able to actually specify what is unscientific about it.) JVL
RD, you are continuing with slander. Final warning to desist. KF PS, per Newton's rules as appealed to by Lyell in Principles of Geology, Vol III, kindly provide a case of known, actually observed cause of a string of alphanumerical characters expressing meaningful functional coded information at or beyond 500 to 1000 binary digits or equivalent rather than gibberish and/or empty repetition. Failing which, you have no epistemic right to postulate that such occurred. In reality you are refusing to acknowledge a fact with trillions of observations to back it. There are trillions of observed cases of origin of FSCO/I, in every case it is by intelligently directed configuration. This entitles us to infer that the best explanation of such FSCO/I in D/RNA or proteins or the cellular process flow metabolic network is design, per inference on reliable sign. PPS, I clip:
PRINCIPLES OF GEOLOGY: BEING AN INQUIRY HOW FAR THE FORMER CHANGES OF THE EARTH’S SURFACE ARE REFERABLE TO CAUSES NOW IN OPERATION. [--> appeal to Newton's Rules, in the title of the work] BY CHARLES LYELL, Esq, F.R.S. PRESIDENT OF THE GEOLOGICAL SOCIETY OE LONDON . . . JOHN MURRAY , , , 1835 [--> later, publisher of Origin]
kairosfocus
RD, further doubling down on hyperskeptical, irresponsible denialism. In 85 above you have a record of actual testing of the hyp, that functionally specific, complex organisation and/or information [FSCO/I as identified in the 70's by Orgel and Wicken] beyond 500 to 1,000 bits will only be found to occur through intelligently directed configuration. The history of this actually extends as far as Cicero. In this case, they document that string generation exercises that unlike Weasel and descendants do not inject active information are a factor of 1 in 10^100 of the lower end of the threshold. KF PS, Orgel 1973:
living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . . . [HT, Mung, fr. p. 190 & 196:] These vague idea can be made more precise by introducing the idea of information. Roughly speaking, the information content of a structure is the minimum number of instructions needed to specify the structure.
[--> this is of course equivalent to the string of yes/no questions required to specify the relevant J S Wicken "wiring diagram" for the set of functional states, T, in the much larger space of possible clumped or scattered configurations, W, as Dembski would go on to define in NFL in 2002, also cf here, -- here and -- here -- (with here on self-moved agents as designing causes).]
One can see intuitively that many instructions are needed to specify a complex structure. [--> so if the q's to be answered are Y/N, the chain length is an information measure that indicates complexity in bits . . . ] On the other hand a simple repeating structure can be specified in rather few instructions.  [--> do once and repeat over and over in a loop . . . ] Complex but random structures, by definition, need hardly be specified at all . . . . Paley was right to emphasize the need for special explanations of the existence of objects with high information content, for they cannot be formed in nonevolutionary, inorganic processes [--> Orgel had high hopes for what Chem evo and body-plan evo could do by way of info generation beyond the FSCO/I threshold, 500 - 1,000 bits.] [The Origins of Life (John Wiley, 1973), p. 189, p. 190, p. 196.]
kairosfocus
Yet another trollbot alert @120. All of the content consists of unsubstantiated claims without a shred of evidence or logic. Once again, you can easily substitute any names you want. Notice the vacuous repetition and pointless vituperation. All easily refuted. The trollbot @120 is completely clueless that the wavefunction, a foundation of quantum mechanics, is non-material information. But this has only been known for close to 100 years. Someone needs to update its script. Please don't feed the trollbots. It's a waste of your time and the script kiddie who wrote it is laughing. -Q Querius
This moronic fever dream of the knownliar Berlinsky, that nature can not produce "information" is laughable nonsese, when in fact nature does that all the time. “information” is not a material substance that needs to be forged by an intelligence, It is: a pattern or sequence of items. In the case of DNA: nucleotides. If nucleotides polymerize to form a nucleic acid, and that sequence acts as a template for the synthesis of another molecule, it’s information. It’s just a word we use to describe something that exists, that applies to biological and nonbiological sequences alike and has zero implications toward intelligence. There is neither an credible alternatve to natural causes for DNAand the sequence it's nucleotides are arranged (those change with completely natural mutations), nor is there reason to believe that there is someting beyond the natural world in general, that could have a hand in this. You are sticking with this fallacious assumption because you like to have scientific backing for your God. Be it for yourself or to fool others, I neither know nor care . The fact remains: Only a fallacious assumption leads to this supposed"intelligence". ID proponents consist of three major groups. Moronic clowns like Joe G. here, DI employees who are usually lacking even the tiniest bit of integrity who make a living by telling lies (That would be you BIll!) and of course their prey, scientific illiterate, childhood indoctrinated victims of intellectual neglect The Rob Davis
@Silver Asiatic89 "You can’t explain the origin of a functional coded information system with naturalism … but we can explain the origin of such a system by use of intelligence – we can model and produce that kind of system and observe it empirically using intelligence so naturalism fails and ID Is best inference for an explanation." You are not explainng anything when the "intelligence" you appeal to, does not exist. Then you are appealing to one mystery to solve anther...that has no explantory power. That is a fallacious assumtion. You can’t explain xy with naturalism..so magic is real” That is basically the ID position. As long as there is no demonstrable correletion between the supernatural, it’s existence, let alone its’s interference with reality… natural causes for anything in nature have NO CREDIBLE ALTERNATIVE. No amount of baseless claims or fallacious assumptions is going to change that. That is the reason ID has never contributed anything to our understanding if nature ever. Rob Davis
Back to a testable scientific hypothesis of "Intelligent Design". The rebuttal to my claim there is no such thing would be to cite one. Fred Hickson
Querius, I'm puzzled about what you want me to do about hydra. The only issue for me is that you claim your hydra could extend their tentacles from a habitually observed length of a few millimetres to a length of 25+ centimetres. It seemed an odd thing when you claimed which is why I queried it. If you insist your hydra had tentacles extensible to the 8" to 10" range then fine. I remain unconvinced. Fred Hickson
Querius Here's another one:
Common species include Hydra vulgaris (brown Hydra) and Chlorohydra viridissima (green Hydra). Green Hydra differ from brown Hydra in that their green color is caused by their symbiont, an alga (Chlorella) Green Hydra are also smaller than brown Hydra, ranging from about 0.5 to 2 cm. https://www.wardsci.com/assetsvc/asset/en_US/id/16920426/contents
Silver Asiatic
The bottom line is however poor, unbelievable or laughable evolution proponents find Intelligent Design, Intelligent Design is the only viable scientific concept which attempts to explain what we observe that makes testable predictions. There is no testable scientific hypothesis of evolution by means of blind and mindless processes. Both Fred and Rob will avoid that demonstrable reality. ET
Rob Davis:
Every component for naturalism is demonstrably real.
Naturalism is a failed philosophy. Did nature produce itself? Natural processes only exist in nature, so they couldn't have produced nature. Saying that the laws of nature just are, the way they are, as Hawkins did, isn't a scientific claim. There isn't anything demonstrably real about that. There isn't anything demonstrably real about the claim that nature produced life. All you can do is demonstrably deny reality. Pathetic, really. ET
Fred Hickson:
Nope, GEM, I don’t know what the “Design” inference is.
How do you think archaeologists determine a rock from an artifact? How do forensic scientists determine if a crime has been committed? How would SETI know if they received an artificial signal? All of them rely on a design inference. An archaeologist's claim of an artifact can be over-ruled by a geologist showing that geological processes can produce it. A claim of homicide can be over-ruled by showing agency intervention wasn't required, ie a natural death. How do you not know this basic stuff? ET
FH, this is now selectively hyperskeptical denialism, oh what could it possibly mean to infer on tested reliable signs that the best current explanation of some object or state of affairs is intelligently designed configuration. Never mind, it includes the inference that the text we see in posts comes from such. As though abductive inference to the best explanation were some dubious idiosyncrasy rather than a major aspect of scientific, historical, forensic, managerial and common sense reasoning. Your rhetorical gambit cannot be sincere. KF kairosfocus
Frecd Hickson:
There really is no testable scientific hypothesis of “Intelligent Design”, as I said but let’s have a look at what ET claims:
OK. As evidence that you don't know anything, please present a testable hypothesis with regard to evolution by means of blind and mindless processes, so we can compare. Your ignorant trope is meaningless:
This is a sock-gnome argument. There’s no way to link “CSI” (whatever that might be, I’ve never seen anyone produce figures for biological features) to “Designer did it”. Complete non-sequitur and typical reversion to the default-without-justification negative argument. Evolution sucks so design wins.
Look, your ignorance is not an argument. First, Crick gave us a definition of information with respect to biology. Shannon gave us a methodology to measure the information carrying capacity of a sequence of nucleotides. So, the high information content of living organisms is already a given. And the link is in the way real investigations transpire. The link is cause-and-effect relationships. The genetic code involves a coded information processing system in which mRNA codons represent amino acids. This is the epitome of a code. The ribosome is a genetic compiler, complete with error detection. There isn't any evidence that nature can produce that nature can produce coded information processing systems. Codes, themselves, are not reducible to physics or chemistry. And error detection requires knowledge. You don't have anything to account for it. So, we understand you are butthurt. There is one and only one known cause for producing error detection, error correction and coded information processing systems and that is via intelligent agency volition. So, using our KNOWLEDGE of cause-and-effect relationships, in accordance with Newton's 4 rules of scientific reasoning, we infer the genetic code is intelligently designed. Science 101- for those who understand science, anyway. However, as with all scientific inferences, you and yours can falsify that claim by stepping up and showing that premise 3 is false! You have all of the power and yet you choose willful ignorance and whining. Thank you for proving that you don't understand science. Newton's four rules of scientific reasoning (and Occam's Razor) DEMAND that nature, the processes described in #3, must be eliminated before a design inference can be considered. You are obviously just a troll. You are clearly Alan Fox or another evoBabble baby. It is a mandatory negative argument. One that archaeologists and forensic scientists have to make. You really are clueless. So, go ahead Fred. Please post your testable hypothesis for: 3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity. I would vote for booting you out if you refuse. ET
What time have you wasted, Querius? Fred Hickson
Lieutenant Commander Data @107,
Well you also deny the reality by trying to break a wall with your head.
Haha! Yes, I sometimes do that because it feels so good when I stop! -Q Querius
Fred Hickson @106, My observations were confirmed by the two research biologists who run the rsscience.com website, but you're "not convinced." Yet, you haven't lifted a finger (other than typing a seven-word, non-committal response) to do any research yourself. This says a lot. I ask myself, what would it take to convince "Fred Hickson," and get him to admit that his skepticism was prejudicial and unscientific? - Do I crawl on my hands and knees bearing five more references that he'll simply wave off disdainfully? - After twenty references, will he say, "Maybe you could be right, but this doesn't matter" or something like that? - After more a few more references and two published papers, will he simply disappear again, smirking over the amount of time he got me to waste? How about doing your own research for a change? -Q Querius
Querius Interesting denial of reality.
:) Well you also deny the reality by trying to break a wall with your head. Lieutenant Commander Data
Yes, Querius, I looked at your link. Fred Hickson
Nope, GEM, I don't know what the "Design" inference is. Fred Hickson
Fred Hickson @98,
No, Querius. Not convinced about your hydra enough to investigate further.
Interesting denial of reality. Did you even bother looking at the link that I provided you, where it reports the following:
"Hydra has a cylindrical, radially symmetric body from 2 to 20 mm in length. It is visible to the naked eyes when fully extended. Their tentacles may extend much longer – some species of green hydra may measure about 5 cm to 20 cm when extended. The body of a hydra may retract (while sensing a danger), making the organism appear shorter and rounded." https://rsscience.com/hydra/
The Rsscience website describes its mission as follows:
"My husband and I are both scientists working in the Boston area. During the day, we try hard to solve problems in biology and cure human diseases in the laboratory. When we think of the next generation, we realized the fundamental way to advance science is to cultivate our curiosity through education." https://rsscience.com/about-me/
So, when faced with mounting evidence against your skepticism, you simply announce you're "not convinced" and abandon one conversation to make vacuous statements in another one. Why would I want to correspond with you? However, my suggestions for cultivating hydra are based on my experience and worked well. My recommendation for getting a binocular dissection (aka inspection) microscope such as the one I use, a B&L 10.5-45X ZOOM with a toroidal lighted stage, is a wonderful tool for studying the wonders of biology in detail. -Q Querius
FH, doubling down again. You full well know that the design inference is testable, has been informally tested trillions of times and passes. FSCO/I comes about by design, intelligently directed configuration. You know it, it rankles, you choose to assert what you know is false to dismiss what you know is true. Sad. KF kairosfocus
@ Querius. Email me. fredhickson@protonmail.com If you want. Fred Hickson
FH, lying again.
Big frog, small pond. Fred Hickson
RD, doubling down on slander in the face of correction. You demonstrate that you are not responsible or responsive to evidence or argument. Ideology pushing fail. KF kairosfocus
FH, lying again. You know full well that any production of FSCO/I beyond 500 - 1,000 bits by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity without intelligently directed configuration would shatter the design inference. This is so blatant that we can see it lurking as Wiki tries to explain away the realities of Dawkins' Weasel in the same infinite monkeys article as was already cited:
Evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins employs the typing monkey concept in his book The Blind Watchmaker to demonstrate the ability of natural selection to produce biological complexity out of random mutations. [--> notice, meant to mimic chance and necessity only] In a simulation experiment Dawkins has his weasel program produce the Hamlet phrase METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL, starting from a randomly typed parent, by "breeding" subsequent generations and always choosing the closest match from progeny that are copies of the parent, with random mutations. [--> so this is target directed and selects from non functional strings the one that is closer to the target] The chance of the target phrase appearing in a single step is extremely small, yet Dawkins showed that it could be produced rapidly (in about 40 generations) using cumulative selection of phrases. [--> cumulative, intelligent selection, illustrating intelligent design] The random choices furnish raw material, while cumulative selection imparts information. [--> sneaking in the back door] As Dawkins acknowledges, however, the weasel program is an imperfect analogy for evolution, as "offspring" phrases were selected "according to the criterion of resemblance to a distant ideal target."
[--> that is, selecting from equally non functional due to warmer/colder active information, the real challenge being skipped is to arrive at shorelines of function beyond which one may hill climb with improved function]
In contrast, Dawkins affirms, evolution has no long-term plans [--> and cannot reward non function] and does not progress toward some distant goal (such as humans). The weasel program is instead meant to illustrate the difference between non-random cumulative selection, and random single-step selection.[20] [--> really! it illustrates intelligent design] In terms of the typing monkey analogy, this means that Romeo and Juliet could be produced relatively quickly if placed under the constraints of a nonrandom, Darwinian-type selection
[--> of course, the selection has to be between functional forms but the problem is Dawkins rewards non function, implicitly placing the strings on islands of function. Islands, as multi part function depending on arrangement, orientation and coupling of parts will only be functional for a relatively few configs in the sea of possibilities]
because the fitness function [--> smuggling in the implied assumption that every possible string is functional enough to count] will tend to preserve in place any letters that happen to match the target text, improving each successive generation of typing monkeys.
Fail. KF kairosfocus
No, Querius. Not convinced about your hydra enough to investigate further. Fred Hickson
Fred Hickson @95, Oh, there you are! Looks like you caved on . . .
Fred Hickson, Have you punted on 20 cm hydra, Susumu Ohno’s Evolution by Gene Duplication, and your skepticism on my experimental results? Since you claim you still enjoy hydra, why not try my experiment for yourself? I also recommend getting a binocular dissection (aka inspection) microscope. Mine is an amazingly sweet B&L 10.5-45X ZOOM with circular-lighted stage. They’re not cheap, but it all depends on one’s priorities. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/from-the-scientist-genome-reveals-clues-to-giraffes-blatantly-strange-body-shape/
-Q Querius
Also note that the trollbot's "arguments" are based on modern educational norms that elevate passion to "emotional truth, and that unsupported assertions, when they agree with the current narrative, whatever that might be and subject to change without warning, constitutes IRREFUTABLE TRUTH. And anything or anybody challenging those cherished doctrines are acts of verbal violence, microaggression against [fill in the blank], and threaten to destroy civilization through [fill in the blank]. Conversely, if the current narrative changes, then all previous statements and positions are null and void through good intentions and are immediately forgotten. In Darwinism, examples include - Spontaneous generation and abiogenesis - Darwin's colonialist and genocidal book, The Descent of Man - Over a hundred vestigial organs in humans (including ductless glands such as the thyroid) - Inherited criminality among humans - Criminality among "primitive" and "less evolved" humans (treated as subhumans) - "Junk" DNA (now renamed to non protein-coding DNA) - Pervasive Lamarckian descriptions of evolution - Iterative evolution and parallel evolution (magical explanations of falsifying evidence) - "Living fossils" (how some creatures magically stopped evolving for 60-70 million years) - The presence of modern phenotypes among dinosaur fossils - Dinosaur fossils that are not mineralized. (they're bones, not stones) - The presence of "stretchy" tissue and intact red blood cells in dinosaur bones (ignored) Enjoy your brave new world. -Q Querius
Querius:
See what I mean?
No. Evolutionary theory stands on its own bottom (ask KF). Fred Hickson
Intelligent causes have demonstrated the power to produce large amounts of specified/functional information (and integrated circuitry).
Let's stick to Dembski's CSI (Complex Specified Information) if we can. Which of Dembski's definitions shall we use to calculate the CSI of something, preferably something biological? Then we need to establish what an "Intelligent Cause" is. How does an "Intelligent Cause" impinge on biological reality? Fred Hickson
Trollbot alert @86. “Rob Davis” submitted a trash bin’s worth of unsupported assertions, accusations, and vituperation without a shred of evidence. Let me demonstrate. Here’s the trollbot’s assertions with simple substitution and negation:
You can keep asking how nature produced this and that..it really does matter and you know that it does. The difference between the position of naturalism and ID have one decisive distention [lol sic]. Every component for naturalism is speculation. Whereas the key component for ID is demonstrably real. NO amount of wishful thinking, an no amount of fallacious assumptions is going to change that. “You can’t explain xy with ID..so Darwinism is real” That is basically the Darwinist position. Darwinism relies in the existence and interference of some ill-defined process/ principle/ force/infinite amounts of random interaction whatever, not subject to the known laws of physics, that supposingly [sic] interacts with the fabric of our reality in ways that have thus far eluded every controlled experiment ever performed in the history of science. That puts your Darwinism …sorry, “evolution” on the same level as magical unicorns. Darwinist proponents consist of three major groups. Moronic clowns like Rob Davis. Ideologically motivated hacks who are usually lacking even the tiniest bit of integrity who make a living by telling lies and of course their prey, scientific illiterate, childhood indoctrinated victims of a failed, racist, 19th century speculation.
See what I mean? -Q Querius
Intelligent causes have demonstrated the power to produce large amounts of specified/functional information (and integrated circuitry). Silver Asiatic
PS @ ET (though of course anyone can answer), How do you propose to test your "hypothesis"? Fred Hickson
There really is no testable scientific hypothesis of "Intelligent Design", as I said but let's have a look at what ET claims:
1) High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design.
This is a sock-gnome argument. There's no way to link "CSI" (whatever that might be, I've never seen anyone produce figures for biological features) to "Designer did it". Complete non-sequitur and typical reversion to the default-without-justification negative argument. Evolution sucks so design wins.
2) Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity.
Meaningless.
3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity.
Back to the negative "evolution sucks so ID wins" routine.
4) Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems.
Meaningless. Fred Hickson
RD
“You can’t explain xy with naturalism..so magic is real” That is basically the ID position.
You can't explain the origin of a functional coded information system with naturalism ... but we can explain the origin of such a system by use of intelligence - we can model and produce that kind of system and observe it empirically using intelligence so naturalism fails and ID Is best inference for an explanation. It's not that difficult to get it right. But if you'll insist on distorting what ID is saying then you're just trying to score some points. But nobody here is going to be impressed with that. Silver Asiatic
RD claims; "Every component for naturalism is demonstrably real. Whereas the key component for ID is NOT. Really? I guess someone forgot to send RD a memo on the falsification of realism. :) Quantum physics says goodbye to reality - Apr 20, 2007 Excerpt: Many realizations of the thought experiment have indeed verified the violation of Bell's inequality. These have ruled out all hidden-variables theories based on joint assumptions of realism, meaning that reality exists when we are not observing it; and locality, meaning that separated events cannot influence one another instantaneously. But a violation of Bell's inequality does not tell specifically which assumption – realism, locality or both – is discordant with quantum mechanics. Markus Aspelmeyer, Anton Zeilinger and colleagues from the University of Vienna, however, have now shown that realism is more of a problem than locality in the quantum world. They devised an experiment that violates a different inequality proposed by physicist Anthony Leggett in 2003 that relies only on realism, and relaxes the reliance on locality. To do this, rather than taking measurements along just one plane of polarization, the Austrian team took measurements in additional, perpendicular planes to check for elliptical polarization. They found that, just as in the realizations of Bell's thought experiment, Leggett's inequality is violated – thus stressing the quantum-mechanical assertion that reality does not exist when we're not observing it. "Our study shows that 'just' giving up the concept of locality would not be enough to obtain a more complete description of quantum mechanics," Aspelmeyer told Physics Web. "You would also have to give up certain intuitive features of realism." http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/27640 Should Quantum Anomalies Make Us Rethink Reality? Inexplicable lab results may be telling us we’re on the cusp of a new scientific paradigm By Bernardo Kastrup on April 19, 2018 Excerpt: ,, according to the current paradigm, (materialism and/or physicalism), the properties of an object should exist and have definite values even when the object is not being observed: the moon should exist and have whatever weight, shape, size and color it has even when nobody is looking at it. Moreover, a mere act of observation should not change the values of these properties. Operationally, all this is captured in the notion of “non-contextuality”: ,,, It turns out, however, that some predictions of QM are incompatible with non-contextuality even for a large and important class of non-local theories. Experimental results reported in 2007 and 2010 have confirmed these predictions. To reconcile these results with the current paradigm would require a profoundly counterintuitive redefinition of what we call “objectivity.” And since contemporary culture has come to associate objectivity with reality itself, the science press felt compelled to report on this by pronouncing, “Quantum physics says goodbye to reality.” https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/should-quantum-anomalies-make-us-rethink-reality/ And since 'intelligence' is the key component for ID, apparently RD is also trying to claim that Intelligence is not demonstrably real. What is ironic in his claim is that RD typed that claim out on a computer. A computer which is itself undeniable proof that intelligence is real. As George Ellis stated, “The mind is not a physical entity, but it certainly is causally effective: proof is the existence of the computer on which you are reading this text. It could not exist if it had not been designed and manufactured according to someone's plans, thereby proving the causal efficacy of thoughts, which like computer programs and data are not physical entities.” How Does The World Work: Top-Down or Bottom-Up? - September 29, 2013 Excerpt: To get an handle on how top-down causation works, Ellis focuses on what's in front of all us so much of the time: the computer. Computers are structured systems. They are built as a hierarchy of layers, extending from the wires in the transistors all the way up to the fully assembled machine, gleaming metal case and all. Because of this layering, what happens at the uppermost levels — like you hitting the escape key — flows downward. This action determines the behavior of the lowest levels — like the flow of electrons through the wires — in ways that simply could not be predicted by just knowing the laws of electrons. As Ellis puts it: “Structured systems such as a computer constrain lower level interactions, and thereby paradoxically create new possibilities of complex behavior.” Ellis likes to emphasize how the hierarchy of structure — from fully assembled machine through logic gates, down to transistors — changes everything for the lowly electrons. In particular, it "breaks the symmetry" of their possible behavior since their movements in the computer hardware are very different from what would occur if they were just floating around in a plasma blob in space. But the hardware, of course, is just one piece of the puzzle. This is where things get interesting. As Ellis explains: “Hardware is only causally effective because of the software which animates it: by itself hardware can do nothing. Both hardware and software are hierarchically structured with the higher level logic driving the lower level events.” In other words, it's software at the top level of structure that determines how the electrons at the bottom level flow. Hitting escape while running Word moves the electrons in the wires in different ways than hitting escape does when running Photoshop. This is causation flowing from top to bottom. For Ellis, anything producing causes is real in the most basic sense of the word. Thus the software, which is not physical like the electrons, is just as real as those electrons. As Ellis puts it: “Hence, although they are the ultimate in algorithmic causation as characterized so precisely by Turing, digital computers embody and demonstrate the causal efficacy of non-physical entities. The physics allows this; it does not control what takes place. Computers exemplify the emergence of new kinds of causation out of the underlying physics, not implied by physics but rather by the logic of higher-level possibilities. ... A combination of bottom-up causation and contextual affects (top-down influences) enables their complex functioning.” The consequences of this perspective for our view of the mind are straightforward and radical: “The mind is not a physical entity, but it certainly is causally effective: proof is the existence of the computer on which you are reading this text. It could not exist if it had not been designed and manufactured according to someone's plans, thereby proving the causal efficacy of thoughts, which like computer programs and data are not physical entities.” http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2013/09/29/225359504/how-does-the-world-work-top-down-or-bottom-up bornagain77
RD@86. Ouch. JHolo
You can keep asking how nature produced this and that..it really does not matter and you know that it does not. The difference between the position of naturalism and ID have one decisive distention. Every component for naturalism is demonstrably real. Whereas the key component for ID is NOT. NO amount of wishful thinking, an no amount of fallacious assumptions is going to change that. “You can’t explain xy with naturalism..so magic is real” That is basically the ID position. ID relies in the existence and interference of some ill-defined God/metaphysical substance/ entity/ force/intelligence/power/ supernatural whatever, not subject to the known laws of physics, that supposingly interacts with the fabric of our reality in ways that have thus far eluded every controlled experiment ever performed in the history of science. That puts your God …sorry, “intelligence” on the same level as magical unicorns. ID proponents consist of three major groups. Moronic clowns like Joe g. here, DI employees who are usually lacking even the tiniest bit of integrity who make a living by telling lies and of course their prey, scientific illiterate, childhood indoctrinated victims of intellectual neglect. Rob Davis
PPS, on the infinite monkeys theorem, wikipedia saw the thumbscrews and chose to admit:
The theorem concerns a thought experiment which cannot be fully carried out in practice, since it is predicted to require prohibitive amounts of time and resources. Nonetheless, it has inspired efforts in finite random text generation. One computer program run by Dan Oliver of Scottsdale, Arizona, according to an article in The New Yorker, came up with a result on 4 August 2004: After the group had worked for 42,162,500,000 billion billion monkey-years, one of the "monkeys" typed, "VALENTINE. Cease toIdor:eFLP0FRjWK78aXzVOwm)-‘;8.t" The first 19 letters of this sequence can be found in "The Two Gentlemen of Verona". Other teams have reproduced 18 characters from "Timon of Athens", 17 from "Troilus and Cressida", and 16 from "Richard II".[27] A website entitled The Monkey Shakespeare Simulator, launched on 1 July 2003, contained a Java applet that simulated a large population of monkeys typing randomly, with the stated intention of seeing how long it takes the virtual monkeys to produce a complete Shakespearean play from beginning to end. For example, it produced this partial line from Henry IV, Part 2, reporting that it took "2,737,850 million billion billion billion monkey-years" to reach 24 matching characters: RUMOUR. Open your ears; 9r"5j5&?OWTY Z0d
A mere factor of 10^100 shy of the lower end of the FSCO/I threshold range. kairosfocus
RD, 65: First, no gigo limited computation on a substrate -- a dynamic-stochastic, cause effect system not a ground consequent reasoning entity -- is free enough to be rational, so to warrant and to know. Consequently, your computationalist materialism is self referentially incoherent, as was pointed out by Haldane before either of us was born: it would destroy the credibility of the knowledge that it claims to be. Contrary to your impositions, the fact that we self evidently are rational and can warrant and know is itself excellent reason to infer that materialism is falsified. Next, we do have a framework, first, the Smith two-tier cybernetic loop controller, https://uncommondescent.com/atheism/reference-the-smith-model-an-architecture-for-cybernetics-and-mind-body-free-will-determinism-compatibilism-analysis/ in which there is a higher order supervisory controller that influences the loop. A likely candidate is quantum influence. In that context, we see the relevance of an oracle machine, an extension of the Turing controller that in one step issues decisions once the system enters an ask state, based on its own resources that are not an expression of the Turing model. This outperforms a Turing device and of course is highly relevant to the Smith Model. For example, Wikipedia is forced to confess:
An oracle machine can be conceived as a Turing machine connected to an oracle. The oracle, in this context, is an entity capable of solving some problem, which for example may be a decision problem or a function problem. The problem does not have to be computable; the oracle is not assumed to be a Turing machine or computer program. The oracle is simply a "black box" that is able to produce a solution for any instance of a given computational problem: A decision problem is represented as a set A of natural numbers (or strings). An instance of the problem is an arbitrary natural number (or string). The solution to the instance is "YES" if the number (string) is in the set, and "NO" otherwise. A function problem is represented by a function f from natural numbers (or strings) to natural numbers (or strings). An instance of the problem is an input x for f. The solution is the value f(x). An oracle machine can perform all of the usual operations of a Turing machine, and can also query the oracle to obtain a solution to any instance of the computational problem for that oracle. For example, if the problem is a decision problem for a set A of natural numbers, the oracle machine supplies the oracle with a natural number, and the oracle responds with "yes" or "no" stating whether that number is an element of A.
So, we have a framework for going beyond the first level Turing machine. This has room for a view of reality in which the necessary being root of reality can design a world fine tuned for C chem, aqueous medium, cell based, information and cybernetic system rich life. So the notion that one cannot bridge to physics is moot, and onward to the root of the tree of life. Where the functionally specific complex organisation and/or associated information [FSCO/I] in cell based life points to intelligently directed oracular controlled configuration as best explanation. Design is there from the root, OoL. Oo Body Plans [OoBP] then becomes a free corollary, as origin of a body plan hosting responsible rational freedom. KF PS, Haldane, framed as a skeletal argument:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For
if [p:] my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain [–> taking in DNA, epigenetics and matters of computer organisation, programming and dynamic-stochastic processes; notice, "my brain," i.e. self referential] ______________________________ [ THEN] [q:] I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. [--> indeed, blindly mechanical computation is not in itself a rational process, the only rationality is the canned rationality of the programmer, where survival-filtered lucky noise is not a credible programmer, note the functionally specific, highly complex organised information rich code and algorithms in D/RNA, i.e. language and goal directed stepwise process . . . an observationally validated adequate source for such is _____ ?] [Corollary 1:] They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence [Corollary 2:] I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. [--> grand, self-referential delusion, utterly absurd self-falsifying incoherence] [Implied, Corollary 3: Reason and rationality collapse in a grand delusion, including of course general, philosophical, logical, ontological and moral knowledge; reductio ad absurdum, a FAILED, and FALSE, intellectually futile and bankrupt, ruinously absurd system of thought.]
In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. Cf. here on (and esp here) on the self-refutation by self-falsifying self referential incoherence and on linked amorality.]
kairosfocus
RD
There in nothing special about a mind in naturalistic terms…interacting matter. Like the rest of our reality.
Nothing special. That's just the marketing campaign for irrational nihilism. You're killing your own credibility, self-worth and reason for existence. Is there some reason anyone should care about what you have to say? ID points to meaning and purposeful design.
All our minds, no matter what beliefs they hold, are housed in material brains, which can be boiled down to the particles and their interactions as they are described in the Standard Model of Physics.
As pathetic and tragic as that belief-system is, it's also good to see in some ways. There are anti-IDists here who deny that materialists like you exist any more. But we've got it right here. Everything is "boiled down" to physics. There's really no need even for biology. Silver Asiatic
RD
No outcome of anyOrigin Of Information experiment is going to add credibility to this supposed “intelligence” of your ID fantasy.
A deceptive answer that clearly shows you've got nothing. The challenge is for you to back up your claim and produce a coded information system (sender, translator, receiver, functional-logic based response) minus intelligence. You know you can't do it. But instead of just admitting the failure, you turn it around and attack intelligence itself, which is the only means capable of producing the result. Why not just admit that? Silver Asiatic
RD
...is just the attempt to solve one mystery ...
After all the bluster, that part is right. Materialism cannot penetrate the mystery of the origins of anything. Some of the anti-IDists here have already admitted that, and their "attempt to solve" the mystery is to provide the conclusion "we don't know". That basically works for everything. ID, on the other hand, takes what we do know and has discovered that it applies to observations we have throughout nature. ID opens up understanding of reality where materialism closed it down (as any blind, unintelligent thing would do). Silver Asiatic
only viable scientific theory which attempts to explain what we observe that makes testable predictions
And all predictions have failed. Darwin’s ideas are all self refuting especially natural selection. Natural selection while real by definition can only lead to very minor changes. Certainly not to a new species. jerry
The bottom line is however poor, unbelievable or laughable evolution proponents find Intelligent Design, Intelligent Design is the only viable scientific concept which attempts to explain what we observe that makes testable predictions. There is no testable scientific hypothesis of evolution by means of blind and mindless processes ET
kairosfocus- "Rob Davis" isn't interested in learning about ID nor science. ET
All our minds, no matter what beliefs they hold, are housed in material brains, which can be boiled down to the particles and their interactions as they are described in the Standard Model of Physics.
Just because you can say it doesn't make it so. How does evolution by means of blind and mindless processes even account for brains, seeing they can't even produce eukaryotes? ET
Earth to Fred- There isn't any scientific theory of evolution. The testable hypothesis for ID is as follows: 1) High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design. 2) Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity. 3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity. 4) Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems. And that is by far more than evolution by means of blind and mindless processes can muster. Fred Hickson is either willfully ignorant, stupid or blatantly dishonest. ET
The bottom line is however poor, unbelievable or laughable ID proponents find evolutionary theory, evolutionary theory is the only viable scientific theory which attempts to explain what we observe that makes testable predictions. There is no testable scientific hypothesis of "Intelligent Design". Fred Hickson
"Rob Davis" is confused. There is no way that evolution by means of blind and mindless process could produce a nested hierarchy. All of the required transitional forms would ruin any and all attempts at making nice, distinct groupings. Evolution by means of blind and mindless processes can't account for the existence of eukaryotes. You lose, timmy. All you have is your ignorance and gullibility. ET
There isn't any evidence that nature produced itself. There isn't any evidence that nature produced the laws that govern it. There isn't any evidence that nature can produce coded information processing systems and living organisms are ruled by them. Given starting populations of prokaryotes there isn't any naturalistic process capable of producing eukaryotes. Endosymbiosis doesn't help as we have learned from the new article on the topic. So evos don't have anything. No evidence. No science. Just pure belligerence. ET
Intelligent Design's concepts on evolution are used in the form of genetic algorithms, which are goal-oriented programs that utilize targeted searches to solve problems. No one uses evolution by means of blind and mindless processes for anything. It is useless and worthless ET
"Rob Davis" is a scientifically illiterate coward. It couldn't find evidentiary support for evolution by means of blind and mindless processes if its life depended on it. ET
Bob O'H:
Any gene duplication event increases information.
Two copies of the same thing does not increase information. ET
Rob, so you have collected the 10 million dollar prize and falsified ID by showing, as you claimed, “Nature creates complexity and with it, information all the time via the laws of nature,”? Or are you now backing off your claim that the laws of nature can create coded information? Fame, fortune, and a Nobel prize, awaits your proof that the laws of nature can create coded information bornagain77
@Bornagain77, Bill... Regarding the "Evolution 2.0 prize" No outcome of anyOrigin Of Information experiment is going to add credibility to this supposed "intelligence" of your ID fantasy. That's not how this works. Until it’s existence is demonstrated you got nothing. Which has not happened yet and given that you lack a method to do so, probably never will happen. A fallacious assumption is not a replacement for a demonstrable correaltion with reality. You can’t just wish things into existence. Provoking God/some intelligence, is just the attempt to solve one mystery by appealing to another one. Rob Davis
Rob Davis All our minds, no matter what beliefs they hold, are housed in material brains, which can be boiled down to the particles and their interactions as they are described in the Standard Model of Physics. There in nothing special about a mind in naturalistic terms…interacting matter.
To say that atoms are producing the mind it's like saying that wood produce books. Pages from books are made from cellulose and ink . Do cellulose and ink produce letters by themselves? If yes ,tell us what physical law made them to create letters. Lieutenant Commander Data
“And since Intelligent Design is mathematically based upon the ‘law of conservation of information’, that makes Intelligent Design very much testable and potentially falsifiable, …” ID is not based on any math. You claim it is, so please show the math that underpins the claim “some non-detectable “Intelligence” is interacting with nature. Answer: There is no such math. The ‘law of conservation of information’ is one of Dembski’s Brainfarts that ” Information does not appear out of nowhere, but can always be traced to a prior source”. Where he again acts as if information is some kind of entity, a magic ingredient that needs to be added to matter for it to work properly. When in reality it is nothing but a particular arrangement or sequence of particles and their interactions. “that makes Intelligent Design very much testable and potentially falsifiable” With what method do you propose we demonstrate a correaltion between this “intelligence” and reality? Please elaborate! Answer: There is none Name one prediction ID makes that is falsifiable by an empirical evidence and how you plan to produce this evidence. Please elaborate! Answer: There is none ID is usless nonsense. Rob Davis
"You can’t explain mind in terms of physical laws. End of story." All our minds, no matter what beliefs they hold, are housed in material brains, which can be boiled down to the particles and their interactions as they are described in the Standard Model of Physics. There in nothing special about a mind in naturalistic terms...interacting matter. Like the rest of our reality. ID on the other hand explains NOTHING. It claims a fantasy is interacting with nature. A fantsay solely based on a fallacious assumtion. Rob Davis
RD, kindly read the UD resources tab items, including definition of ID and the weak argument correctives. Your uncivil, slanderously accusatory behaviour has you on track for banning for cause. You may also find the OP and discussion here useful. Particularly note the postulational framework and structure of ID as an inference, as a research programme/ paradigm/ theory with growing publication record and as a movement involving thinkers and supporters. BTW direct design is not inferred to explain every adaptation, even by current young earth creationists, they speak to adaptive radiation up to family level or thereabouts, the Cichlids may be a particularly good case in point and we have seen how American Elk and European Red Deer freely interbred in New Zealand. I think cross genus breeding of salmonids also occurs, if memory serves. Mules, Wipers and the like show where infertility can come up. Of course cross species breeding of Galapagos finches is a key point. I think the issue is, origin of life and that of basic body plans, where from Thaxton et al on, it has been pointed out that in effect a molecular nanotech lab some generations beyond Venter would be a serious candidate explanation. It is, as Plato pointed out, cosmological fine tuning that requires extracosmic intelligently directed configuration, and it is the new order of being, mind governed by knowable first principle, self evident first duties of reason that points to the awesomely powerful, inherently good and utterly wise as necessary being root of reality and ground world, W0. Where, successful random document creation beyond 500 - 1,000 bits would suffice to shatter the core design inference. I am sure, you are or could easily be aware that efforts have not gone beyond 1 in 10^100 of the lower end of that threshold range. And yes, that is just one example of empirical testing of ID. KF kairosfocus
So Bob O'H at 61, according to your simplistic reasoning, if I make a copy of a book you believe I have created coded information? And if you actually believe that, are you going to submit gene duplication, (or something similar to that), to Perry Marshall and company as a candidate for the 10 million dollar prize? :) bornagain77
As to Rob's claim that “Nature creates complexity and with it, information all the time via the laws of nature”, it is interesting to note that, as Ernst Mayr himself conceded, “there are no natural laws in biology corresponding to the natural laws of the physical sciences.”
The Evolution of Ernst: Interview with Ernst Mayr – 2004 (page 2 of 14) Excerpt: biology (Darwinian Evolution) differs from the physical sciences in that in the physical sciences, all theories, I don’t know exceptions so I think it’s probably a safe statement, all theories are based somehow or other on natural laws. In biology, as several other people have shown, and I totally agree with them, there are no natural laws in biology corresponding to the natural laws of the physical sciences. ,,, And so that’s what I do in this book. I show that the theoretical basis, you might call it, or I prefer to call it the philosophy of biology, has a totally different basis than the theories of physics. https://www.scientificamerican.com/media/pdf/0004D8E1-178C-10EB-978C83414B7F012C.pdf
And as Roger Highfield stated, "Whatever the case, those universal truths—’laws’—that physicists and chemists all rely upon appear relatively absent from biology."
WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? Evolution is True – Roger Highfield – January 2014 Excerpt: If evolutionary biologists are really Seekers of the Truth, they need to focus more on finding the mathematical regularities of biology, following in the giant footsteps of Sewall Wright, JBS Haldane, Ronald Fisher and so on. ,,, Whatever the case, those universal truths—’laws’—that physicists and chemists all rely upon appear relatively absent from biology. Little seems to have changed from a decade ago when the late and great John Maynard Smith wrote a chapter on evolutionary game theory for a book on the most powerful equations of science: his contribution did not include a single equation. http://www.edge.org/response-detail/25468
And as Murray Eden of MIT stated, “an adequate scientific theory of evolution must await the discovery and elucidation of new natural laws—physical, physico-chemical, and biological.”
“It is our contention that if ‘random’ is given a serious and crucial interpretation from a probabilistic point of view, the randomness postulate is highly implausible and that an adequate scientific theory of evolution must await the discovery and elucidation of new natural laws—physical, physico-chemical, and biological.” Murray Eden, “Inadequacies of Neo-Darwinian Evolution as a Scientific Theory,” Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Interpretation of Evolution, editors Paul S. Moorhead and Martin M. Kaplan, June 1967, p. 109. https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~christos/evol/compevol_files/Wistar-Eden-1.pdf
Even wikipedia itself (no friend of ID) honestly conceded, "Whether or not Natural Selection is a “law of nature” is controversial among biologists."
"Whether or not Natural Selection is a “law of nature” is controversial among biologists." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_law#Laws_of_biology
Thus, directly contrary to what Rob implied, there simply is no agreed upon ‘law of evolution’ that corresponds to the natural laws of the physical sciences. And with no law of nature to ever build a realistic mathematical model upon, Darwinian evolution simply fails to qualify as a hard and testable science, As Dr. Robert Marks noted, “There exists no model successfully describing undirected Darwinian evolution. Hard sciences are built on foundations of mathematics or definitive simulations. Examples include electromagnetics, Newtonian mechanics, geophysics, relativity, thermodynamics, quantum mechanics, optics, and many areas in biology. Those hoping to establish Darwinian evolution as a hard science with a model have either failed or inadvertently cheated.,,, there exists no (mathematical) model successfully describing undirected Darwinian evolution. According to our current understanding, there never will be.,,,”
“There exists no model successfully describing undirected Darwinian evolution. Hard sciences are built on foundations of mathematics or definitive simulations. Examples include electromagnetics, Newtonian mechanics, geophysics, relativity, thermodynamics, quantum mechanics, optics, and many areas in biology. Those hoping to establish Darwinian evolution as a hard science with a model have either failed or inadvertently cheated. These models contain guidance mechanisms to land the airplane squarely on the target runway despite stochastic wind gusts. Not only can the guiding assistance be specifically identified in each proposed evolution model, its contribution to the success can be measured, in bits, as active information.,,,”,,, “there exists no model successfully describing undirected Darwinian evolution. According to our current understanding, there never will be.,,,” – Robert J. Marks II – Top Ten Questions and Objections to ‘Introduction to Evolutionary Informatics’ – June 12, 2017 https://evolutionnews.org/2017/06/top-ten-questions-and-objections-to-introduction-to-evolutionary-informatics/
And whereas Darwinian evolution has no known law of nature to appeal to so as to establish itself as a proper, testable, ‘hard’ science, Intelligent Design does not suffer from such an embarrassing disconnect from physical reality. In other words, Intelligent Design can appeal directly to ‘the laws of conservation of information’ (Dembski, Marks, etc..) in order to establish itself as a proper, testable, 'hard' science.
Conservation of information, evolution, etc – Sept. 30, 2014 Excerpt: Kurt Gödel’s logical objection to Darwinian evolution: “The formation in geological time of the human body by the laws of physics (or any other laws of similar nature), starting from a random distribution of elementary particles and the field is as unlikely as the separation of the atmosphere into its components. The complexity of the living things has to be present within the material [from which they are derived] or in the laws [governing their formation].” Gödel – As quoted in H. Wang. “On `computabilism’ and physicalism: Some Problems.” in Nature’s Imagination, J. Cornwall, Ed, pp.161-189, Oxford University Press (1995). Gödel’s argument is that if evolution is unfolding from an initial state by mathematical laws of physics, it cannot generate any information not inherent from the start – and in his view, neither the primaeval environment nor the laws are information-rich enough.,,, More recently this led him (Dembski) to postulate a Law of Conservation of Information, or actually to consolidate the idea, first put forward by Nobel-prizewinner Peter Medawar in the 1980s. Medawar had shown, as others before him, that in mathematical and computational operations, no new information can be created, but new findings are always implicit in the original starting points – laws and axioms.,,, http://potiphar.jongarvey.co.uk/2014/09/30/conservation-of-information-evolution-etc/ Evolutionary Computing: The Invisible Hand of Intelligence – June 17, 2015 Excerpt: William Dembski and Robert Marks have shown that no evolutionary algorithm is superior to blind search — unless information is added from an intelligent cause, which means it is not, in the Darwinian sense, an evolutionary algorithm after all. This mathematically proven law, based on the accepted No Free Lunch Theorems, seems to be lost on the champions of evolutionary computing. Researchers keep confusing an evolutionary algorithm (a form of artificial selection) with “natural evolution.” ,,, Marks and Dembski account for the invisible hand required in evolutionary computing. The Lab’s website states, “The principal theme of the lab’s research is teasing apart the respective roles of internally generated and externally applied information in the performance of evolutionary systems.” So yes, systems can evolve, but when they appear to solve a problem (such as generating complex specified information or reaching a sufficiently narrow predefined target), intelligence can be shown to be active. Any internally generated information is conserved or degraded by the law of Conservation of Information.,,, What Marks and Dembski (mathematically) prove is as scientifically valid and relevant as Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem in mathematics. You can’t prove a system of mathematics from within the system, and you can’t derive an information-rich pattern from within the pattern.,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/06/evolutionary_co_1096931.html
And since Intelligent Design is mathematically based upon the ‘law of conservation of information’, that makes Intelligent Design very much testable and potentially falsifiable, and thus makes Intelligent Design, unlike Darwinism, a rigorous science instead of, basically, a unfalsifiable pseudoscience . In fact, to repeat, there is currently a 10 million dollar prize being offered for the first person that can “Show an example of Information that doesn’t come from a mind. All you need is one.”
The Origin of Information: How to Solve It - Perry Marshall Where did the information in DNA come from? This is one of the most important and valuable questions in the history of science. Cosmic Fingerprints has issued a challenge to the scientific community: “Show an example of Information that doesn’t come from a mind. All you need is one.” “Information” is defined as digital communication between an encoder and a decoder, using agreed upon symbols. To date, no one has shown an example of a naturally occurring encoding / decoding system, i.e. one that has demonstrably come into existence without a designer. A private equity investment group is offering a technology prize for this discovery (up to 10 million dollars). We will financially reward and publicize the first person who can solve this;,,, To solve this problem is far more than an object of abstract religious or philosophical discussion. It would demonstrate a mechanism for producing coding systems, thus opening up new channels of scientific discovery. Such a find would have sweeping implications for Artificial Intelligence research. http://cosmicfingerprints.com/solve/
bornagain77
You specifically claimed that, “Nature creates complexity and with it, information all the time via the laws of nature,”. ID holds that the laws of nature cannot create “information all the time via the laws of nature”.
Any gene duplication event increases information. Come to that, if you use Shannon information, genetic drift increases information. Bob O'H
Rob Davis …some intelligence is not the default position for anything….it is in fact no position at all until it’s existence is demonstrated.
:lol: Your own mind is ID evidence. You can't explain mind in terms of physical laws. End of story. Lieutenant Commander Data
Rob Davis at 53,
“Well Rob, here’s your chance to scientifically falsify ID” What is there to falyify (sic)?
You specifically claimed that, "Nature creates complexity and with it, information all the time via the laws of nature,". ID holds that the laws of nature cannot create "information all the time via the laws of nature". Thus, "here’s your chance to scientifically falsify ID, embarrass ID advocates, and earn yourself a cool 10 million dollars to boot.. Just show the laws of ‘Nature’ creating a code."
Evolution 2.0 Prize: Unprecedented $10 Million Offered To Replicate Cellular Evolution – 2020 Excerpt: An incentive prize ten times the size of the Nobel – believed to be the largest single award ever in basic science – is being offered to the person or team solving the largest mystery in history: how genetic code inside cells got there, and how cells intentionally self-organize, communicate, then purposely adapt. This $10 million challenge, the Evolution 2.0 Prize can be found at http://www.evo2.org. ,,, A germ resisting antibiotics does more programming in 12 minutes than a team of Google engineers can do in 12 days,” said Marshall. “One blade of grass is 10,000 years ahead of any computer. If a single firm in Silicon Valley held a fraction of the secrets of this natural code inside a single cell, they’d set the NASDAQ on fire. Organisms self-edit and reprogram in real time in a way that dwarfs anything manmade. If we crack this, it will literally change the course of aging, disease, A.I. and humanity.” https://www.prnewswire.com/in/news-releases/evolution-2-0-prize-unprecedented-10-million-offered-to-replicate-cellular-evolution-875038146.html Artificial Intelligence + Origin of Life Prize, $10 Million USD Where did life and the genetic code come from? Can the answer build superior AI? The #1 mystery in science now has a $10 million prize. https://www.herox.com/evolution2.0?_ga=2.109943685.1072307718.1654186933-1313874461.1654186933
bornagain77
The typical ID fanboy keeps ignoring the your bigger problem...: Nothing in regards to abiogenesis or evolution (even their complete and utter disproval) , adds substance to anything supernatural, including the God, sorry “Intelligence” they imagine is real. God…sorry…some intelligence is not the default position for anything….it is in fact no position at all until it’s existence is demonstrated. Which has not happened yet and given that you lack a method to do so, probably never will happen. A fallacious assumption is not a replacement for a demonstrable correaltion with reality. You can’t just wish things into existence. Provoking God/some intelligence, is just the attempt to solve one mystery by appealing to another one. Rob Davis
I’m still waiting to hear the ID explanation for ….antibiotic research, ring species, domesticated animals, vestigial organs, endogenous retroviruses, pseudogenes, syncytin, Biogeography, chromosome 2 in humans, cytochrome c and b, nested Hierarchs and classification, homologous structures, divergence, endemism and the observable speciation in American Goatsbeard flowers. I’m still waiting to hear the ID explanation for …why are there are no mammals or freshwater-fish, only animals that could swim or fly there in the first place, on Islands of volcanic origin, which specified there shown severe genetic overlap with animals on the nearest mainland? Whereas the animal population on islands which were former connected to mainland, contains freshwater-fish and mammals? In the light of Evolution this makes perfect sense. Let’s have a look at the ID explanation for all that: “An not further defined “Intelligence”, that is in no way detectable arranged that so…” The ID attempt of an “Explanation” is not different from claiming “Magic did it”. I don’t know what’s worse, that the ID frauds think that their followers are so gullible, ill-informed, brainwashed, ignorant, and depended on this God fantasy to fall for this crap, or that they are predominantly right in thinking so. Rob Davis
"All the members of the DI are liars and frauds?" Yes. That includes William Dembski the founder of this blog. I hope you read this Bill. Rob Davis
"The omnipotence of the matter! Nobody seen it , nobody proved that but even we don’t know how must be true whisper the atheist. :)))" Nobody in science claims that matter is omnipotent. Matter and the laws of nature are demonstably real, they demonstrably exist and guide natural processes. The "God"...sorry "intelligence" you seem to be so keen on, has no demonsttrable correaltion with reality, and no amount of baseless claims or fallacious assumptions is going to change that. Rob Davis
"You’re saying that science is based on science and pseudoscience is not." I am saying that science is based on emperical evidence that actually exists in this reality and pseudoscience is not...as it is clearly demonstrated by ID. Fallacious assumptions about some “intelligence” with no demonstrable correaltion with reality, are not a substitute for empirical evidence. Rob Davis
"Well Rob, here’s your chance to scientifically falsify ID" What is there to falyify? It is the God of the gaps argument in a wig. The whle thing is one big fallacy. ID appeals to a fantasy "intelligence" and sells this as an explanation to brainless morons...just like creationism does, because they are the same thing. Rob Davis
RD
The key difference between science and pseudoscience is that science is based on scientific and factual evidence, whereas pseudoscience is not.
You're saying that science is based on science and pseudoscience is not. Silver Asiatic
Rob Davis at 26 you claim,
You ID Fanboyz all seem to be under the impression that information is some kind of magic ingredient that needs to be sprinkled over material to function. That is utter nonsense. Information in its many forms is nothing but a particular arrangement or sequence of particles and their interactions. which we know the laws of nature are perfectly capable to take care of. Nature creates complexity and with it, information all the time via the laws of nature, simple rules that apply as long as there is energy driving it…
Well Rob, here's your chance to scientifically falsify ID, embarrass ID advocates, and earn yourself a cool 10 million dollars to boot.. Just show 'Nature' creating a code.
Evolution 2.0 Prize: Unprecedented $10 Million Offered To Replicate Cellular Evolution - 2020 Excerpt: An incentive prize ten times the size of the Nobel – believed to be the largest single award ever in basic science – is being offered to the person or team solving the largest mystery in history: how genetic code inside cells got there, and how cells intentionally self-organize, communicate, then purposely adapt. This $10 million challenge, the Evolution 2.0 Prize can be found at www.evo2.org. ,,, A germ resisting antibiotics does more programming in 12 minutes than a team of Google engineers can do in 12 days," said Marshall. "One blade of grass is 10,000 years ahead of any computer. If a single firm in Silicon Valley held a fraction of the secrets of this natural code inside a single cell, they'd set the NASDAQ on fire. Organisms self-edit and reprogram in real time in a way that dwarfs anything manmade. If we crack this, it will literally change the course of aging, disease, A.I. and humanity." https://www.prnewswire.com/in/news-releases/evolution-2-0-prize-unprecedented-10-million-offered-to-replicate-cellular-evolution-875038146.html Artificial Intelligence + Origin of Life Prize, $10 Million USD Where did life and the genetic code come from? Can the answer build superior AI? The #1 mystery in science now has a $10 million prize. https://www.herox.com/evolution2.0?_ga=2.109943685.1072307718.1654186933-1313874461.1654186933
bornagain77
If anyone wants to observe the dishonesty and obfuscation that is Biologos, just read what transpired on the link "Rob Davis" provided. ET
The omnipotence of the matter! Nobody seen it , nobody proved that but even we don't know how must be true whisper the atheist. :))) Lieutenant Commander Data
Intelligent Design is not anti-evolution. ID is ok with a change in allele frequency over time, ie evolution. ID is ok with descent with modification, ie evolution. ID is ok with speciation, ie evolution. The problem is that evos are just dishonest cowards. ET
"Lying, shifting, insulting, dissembling, equivocating, diverting, continuingly repeating nonsense ad nauseam" "Günter Bechly is a liar and a fraud just like the rest of the Discovery Institute ilk" "Tedious and depressing in a very odd way." Sounds like someone needs some hostility management classes and maybe a trip to see a mental health specialist. Andrew asauber
Dave Farina is also a liar and a coward. That is why timmy luvs him ET
"Rob Davis", aka Timmy Horton, is a liar and a coward. ET
"Why not set that aside and engage in a more conciliatory dialogue" I did..I took Günter Bechlys desperate reply to Dave Farinas videos and dismanteled every lie and misrepresentation in it. Maybe you should start by watching the original videos on the output of the ill-named DI, which is a thorough insight on the motivation and lies of this pseudoscientific propaganda factory. Rob Davis
RD We're going to refer to Jerry Coyne, Larry Moran and Biologos for an understanding of ID? They might be a bit biased, don't you think? Silver Asiatic
RD
Günter Bechly is a liar and a fraud just like the rest of the Discovery Institute ilk
All the members of the DI are liars and frauds? Silver Asiatic
Rob - your first day here and you're bringing all sorts of animosity and wounds from the past. That's not the most attractive showing for the evolutionary side. Why not set that aside and engage in a more conciliatory dialogue? Silver Asiatic
Günter Bechly is a liar and a fraud just like the rest of the Discovery Institute ilk...an institution where there is no reaserch done whatsoever, of which of its founders Howard F. Ahmanson, Jr. openly wants to replace democracy with a fundamentalist theocracy. Rob Davis
RD
natural causes for anything in nature have NO CREDIBLE ALTERNATIVE
Natural causes cannot produce the effects we observe. If they could, you'd just report on it. We know that intelligence can model what we observe, and unintelligent natural causes cannot, so that's more than enough to draw an inference, as even atheists who propose multiverse ideas have to do. Silver Asiatic
If anyone is up for a little history on this bafoon..here you go: https://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2015/05/this-is-what-intelligent-design.html https://discourse.biologos.org/t/joe-claims-id-is-not-anti-evolution/26219/2 https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2012/06/02/god-has-sent-me-a-toy/ http://www.antievolution.org/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=14;t=6647;st=7260 He is a keeper! Rob Davis
RD
I still don’t neither know nor care who Jimmy Horten ...
You deliberately misconstrued the name. That's a giveaway. Silver Asiatic
Timmy Rob, I am comforted by the fact that I could easily destroy you in a debate on science. ET
Great, now that the lowest swamp rat is here- ie timmy horton- we can look forward to its Lying, shifting, insulting, dissembling, equivocating, diverting, continuingly repeating nonsense ad nauseam that falls apart under the slightest pressure of scrutiny and ignoring everything… ET
I still neither know nor care who Jimmy Horten is but I encurage everyone to look up Joe "toaster repair man" Gallien. And his digital fingerprint. Rob Davis
ID doesn't require the supernatural. And all you have are baseless claims, timmy. ET
@Silver Asiatic "The prediction is that information processing systems can only be produced by intelligence and cannot be produced by blind, unintelligent natural causes." Again: That is not a prediction, that is a demonstrable false claim. As long as there is no demonstrable correletion between the supernatural, it's existence, let alone its's interference with reality... natural causes for anything in nature have NO CREDIBLE ALTERNATIVE. No amount of baseless claims or fallacious assumptions is going to change that. Rob Davis
“Naturalism hasn’t added anything to our knowledge” “Evidence for geology kills archaeology” “astrology makes testable claims about nature.” “there is still no scientific theory of evolution” “natural selection can´t do anything” “Evolutionists are such a bunch of lowlife losers who love to entertain the rest of us.“ “I see that most, if not all, anti-IDists are raving lunatics” “Wet electricity. Whereas the electricity that powers our computers is comes from the flow of electrons through a conducter and “hates” water, the electricity that runs our bodies is designed for a wet environment and uses pumped ions to convey differing messages to our command center.” All true! I don't know what Timmy's point was ET
Rob Davis is just another troll liar. Clearly it is just another one of Timmy Horton's socks. Lying, shifting, insulting, dissembling, equivocating, diverting, continuingly repeating nonsense ad nauseam that falls apart under the slightest pressure of scrutiny and ignoring everything... That is Rob Davis, aka Timmy Horton, to a tee. ET
Rob Davis is obviously just a strawman maker. There isn't any evidence that natural can produce coded information processing systems and living organisms are ruled by them. There isn't even any way to test the claim that nature can produce coded information processing systems. Where did those laws come from? Rob doesn't have a clue. ET
RD
The very systems [that] produce coded information processing systems, [are] our very intelligences
That's the ID proposal. The prediction is that information processing systems can only be produced by intelligence and cannot be produced by blind, unintelligent natural causes.
We have to be able to cope with encoded information. We need to be able to produce abstractions, work with them, put them together, infer, test, infer further, etc, before we can produce any other code.
That's why blind, unguided evolution fails. It cannot create all of those things you've listed there. Silver Asiatic
@ET "TELIC PROCESSES" build Stonhenge? so it is you Joe! New pseudonym..same old BS Joe G. Aka ET aka “somebodysdad” (one can just hope that this is one of his many lies) Joe Gallien, aka joe g, joe, joseph, john paul, ID guy, jim, frisbee kid, frankie, virgil cain, Robert O. Adai, Joe "I could tell you what I do for a living if you get a top secret security clearance" Gallien etc. has a habit of ignoring counterarguments and simply repeating his bullshit over and over again. As Hanlon´s razor states, “never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity” I've scraped dog shit off of my shoe that is smarter than Joe, who simultaneously represents one of the greatest intellects of Intelligent Design. His digital fingerprint shows him stating and claiming and bragging about being an Iraqi war hero, and a research scientist, and a world class power lifter, and an accomplished pilot, and a software guru with a top secret clearance who wrote genetic algorithms for encryption projects. Guess that’s just the tip if your garbage pile of lies from Mr “..scientific genius“ toaster repair man. Just as a warning for anyone else, don’t engage into a conversation with this one, the insight into a weirdos mind aside, it is a waste of time, he claims that all of the following quotes “are facts” “Naturalism hasn't added anything to our knowledge” “Evidence for geology kills archaeology” “astrology makes testable claims about nature.” “there is still no scientific theory of evolution” “natural selection can´t do anything” “Evolutionists are such a bunch of lowlife losers who love to entertain the rest of us.“ “I see that most, if not all, anti-IDists are raving lunatics” “Wet electricity. Whereas the electricity that powers our computers is comes from the flow of electrons through a conducter and “hates” water, the electricity that runs our bodies is designed for a wet environment and uses pumped ions to convey differing messages to our command center.” Lying, shifting, insulting, dissembling, equivocating, diverting, continuingly repeating nonsense ad nauseam that falls apart under the slightest pressure of scrutiny and ignoring everything that is in odds with his twisted toaster repair man logic is all that will ever come from this clown. Tedious and depressing in a very odd way. Rob Davis
@ Bornagain77 “Says the man who himself just intelligently, and apparently ‘supernaturally’, wrote far more information than has ever been witnessed being generated by unguided material/natural processes.” What about writing a comment is supernatural? You ID Fanboyz all seem to be under the impression that information is some kind of magic ingredient that needs to be sprinkled over material to function. That is utter nonsense. Information in its many forms is nothing but a particular arrangement or sequence of particles and their interactions. which we know the laws of nature are perfectly capable to take care of. Nature creates complexity and with it, information all the time via the laws of nature, simple rules that apply as long as there is energy driving it… Rob Davis
Earth to Rob Davis: ID is based on three premises and the inference that follows (DeWolf et al., Darwinism, Design and Public Education, pg. 92): 1) High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design. 2) Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity. 3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity. 4) Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems. So, yes, ID can be falsified just as I said. And ID does not require the supernatural. ID just requires TELIC PROCESSES ET
Rob Davis:
No. It was build by humans. What about this is supernatural?
TELIC PROCESSES. You are just unable to think. ET
@ET Is this Joe? "Intelligent Design can be falsified by demonstrating that nature can produce coded information processing system" First off, no...one does not falsify ID. ID has to make falsifiable predictions...which it does not. Second...ID relies on the existence and interference of the supernatural...a concept that does not qualify as real. Last but not least: The very systems we use to produce coded information processing systems, meaning our very intelligences, are themselves code information processing systems. We have to be able to cope with encoded information. We need to be able to produce abstractions, work with them, put them together, infer, test, infer further, etc, before we can produce any other code. That means that making codes via “intelligent agency volition” requires systems able to process encoded information. So, if you wanted to propose an intelligence, other than the human one, you’d still be engaged in a silly impossible circularity. Thus, the only possible way out, is for code information processing systems to be producible in ways other than “intelligent agency volition,” again, given that such intelligences are themselves and work on the foundations of pre-existing code information processing systems. Rob Davis
@ ET "Did supernatural processes build Stonehenge? We know there isn’t any naturalistic explanation for it." No. It was build by humans. What about this is supernatural? Rob Davis
Rob Davis:
The key difference between science and pseudoscience is that science is based on scientific and factual evidence, whereas pseudoscience is not.
Evolution by means of blind and mindless processes isn't based on scientific and factual evidence. Intelligent Design can be falsified by demonstrating that nature can produce coded information processing systems. As for astrology, it makes more sense than evolution by means of blind and mindless processes. ET
Rob Davis:
Any supposed alternative to a naturalistic explanation is per definition supernatural.
You need a new dictionary. Did supernatural processes build Stonehenge? We know there isn't any naturalistic explanation for it.
Meyer deliberately uses the term “information” here in a very vague manner.
That is a lie. He uses it as everyone uses it. Crick even defined information with respect to biology. Natural selection includes mutations, Rob. NS is a process of elimination. It is nothing more than contingent serendipity. ET
Rob Davis One mystery is not solved by appealing to a bigger mystery. That is why a theological one never replaced a naturalistic explanation.
:) Explain in naturalistic terms what is the process of checking and correcting "errors" inside the cell (in DNA,RNA,proteins ) and the feedback loop that confirms( or not )that error was corrected and is not necessary to restart the repair process. To scan an entire cell for detecting errors you need a control room that centralize all alerts about specific errors that are detected. That control room will call a specific repairing team for every specific error. After that team repairs the error must report back to central control room that will delete the alarm for that error. So... to detect an error you have to have an original map that constantly is compared with the changing territory of cell and when a change take place(map and territory in dissonance ) triggers an alarm in control room that will send a specific intervention team to a specific address. There are 3 billions of addresses ( only in DNA headquarter )and if you don't know the exact address of the error you will spend years till you reach the exact error site. :) Lieutenant Commander Data
RD, strawman alert. While there is a tendency of objectors to talk in terms of natural vs supernatural causes, from Plato in the laws bk X 2360 years ago design thinkers have understood the proper contrast to be nature vs art, that is blind chance and/or mechanical necessity vs intelligently directed configuration. Where, too, the design inference is on tested reliable signs, to process not agent. Just as one identifies arson from signs before addressing who did it. See the UD weak argument correctives under the resources tab. KF kairosfocus
As to: RD "Until the supernatural has a demonstrable correaltion with reality, concluding that an ill-defined metaphysical substance/ entity/ force/intelligence/power, whatever…not subject to the known laws of physics, that interacts with the fabric of our reality in ways that have thus far eluded every controlled experiment ever performed in the history of science…" Says the man who himself just intelligently, and apparently 'supernaturally', wrote far more information than has ever been witnessed being generated by unguided material/natural processes.
Assessing the Damage MN Does to Freedom of Inquiry Epistemology — how we know — and ontology — what exists — are both affected by methodological naturalism. If we say, "We cannot know that a mind caused x," laying down an epistemological boundary defined by MN, then our ontology comprising real causes for x won’t include minds. MN entails an ontology in which minds are the consequence of physics, and thus, can only be placeholders for a more detailed causal account in which physics is the only (ultimate) actor. You didn’t write your email to me. Physics did, and informed you of that event after the fact. "That’s crazy," you reply, "I certainly did write my email." Okay, then — to what does the pronoun "I" in that sentence refer? Your personal agency; your mind. Are you supernatural?,,, You are certainly an intelligent cause, however, and your intelligence does not collapse into physics. (If it does collapse — i.e., can be reduced without explanatory loss — we haven’t the faintest idea how, which amounts to the same thing.) To explain the effects you bring about in the world — such as your email, a real pattern — we must refer to you as a unique agent. https://evolutionnews.org/2014/09/do_you_like_set/
Supplemental notes:
Premise One: Despite a thorough search, no material causes have been discovered that demonstrate the power to produce large amounts of specified information. Premise Two: Intelligent causes have demonstrated the power to produce large amounts of specified information. Conclusion: Intelligent design constitutes the best, most causally adequate, explanation for the information in the cell. - Stephen Meyer “There remains one and only one type of cause that has shown itself able to create functional information like we find in cells, books and software programs -- intelligent design. We know this from our uniform experience and from the design filter -- a mathematically rigorous method of detecting design. Both yield the same answer. “ (William Dembski and Jonathan Witt, Intelligent Design Uncensored: An Easy-to-Understand Guide to the Controversy, p. 90 (InterVarsity Press, 2010).) "Our experience-based knowledge of information-flow confirms that systems with large amounts of specified complexity (especially codes and languages) invariably originate from an intelligent source from a mind or personal agent." (Stephen C. Meyer, "The origin of biological information and the higher taxonomic categories," Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington, 117(2):213-239 (2004).) Information Enigma (Where did the information come from?) - 21 minute video (Oct. 2015) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA-FcnLsF1g Information drives the development of life. But what is the source of that information? Could it have been produced by an unguided Darwinian process? Or did it require intelligent design? The Information Enigma is a fascinating 21-minute documentary that probes the mystery of biological information, the challenge it poses to orthodox Darwinian theory, and the reason it points to intelligent design. The video features molecular biologist Douglas Axe and Stephen Meyer, author of the books Signature in the Cell and Darwin’s Doubt.
bornagain77
“It is an empirical question to be decided by the data.” Until the supernatural has a demonstrable correaltion with reality, concluding that an ill-defined metaphysical substance/ entity/ force/intelligence/power, whatever…not subject to the known laws of physics, that interacts with the fabric of our reality in ways that have thus far eluded every controlled experiment ever performed in the history of science….is supposingly responsible for aspects of our reality, will always, without exception pseudoscience. “It is simply false that intelligent design does not predict anything.” Is that why ID has demonstrably never contributed anything to our understanding of nature? “No undirected process will demonstrate the capacity to generate 500 bits of new [specified] information starting from a nonbiological source.” That is not a prediction to begin with, but a claim. A demonstrable false one. Meyer deliberately uses the term “information” here in a very vague manner. He wants his audience to believe that “information” is a material substance that needs to be forged by an intelligence, than what it really is: a pattern or sequence of items. If nucleotides polymerize to form a nucleic acid, and that sequence acts as a template for the synthesis of another molecule, it’s information. It’s just a word we use to describe something that exists, that applies to biological and nonbiological sequences alike and has zero implications toward intelligence. “Just write a computer simulation that achieves this, without smuggling the information in through a backdoor, and you can claim victory over a core prediction of intelligent design. “ Meyer is counting on the ignorance of his target audience here, again. Self-modifying code, which uses feedback mechanisms are widely in use. Just like Evolution, they are capable of generating new information without any outer influence. Evolution is not just mutations, it’s mutations AND natural selection. When we want to engineer enzymes to perform a novel activity, the best strategy is to speed up nature; we use random mutagenesis and select the best mutant. Run the cycle ten times, each time picking the best mutant, and you get a highly efficient enzyme. It’s evolution in vitro, not design. Similarly, if you let a program change its code with a feedback mechanism in place analogous to natural selection, the code will improve. This concept is not just an analogy but actually directly relevant to the concept of evolution by natural selection. Rob Davis
“Of course, intelligent design has explanatory power. Otherwise, we could not even explain the existence of Romeo and Juliet by the intelligent agency of William Shakespeare.” ID does not explain who the author of Romeo and Juliet is. We know this due to the overwhelming, falsifiable, empirical evidence that points to Shakespeare. The scientific aspect of historiography is evident in the painstaking search, collection, and evaluation of the available evidence and consequently points to a conclusion that has a demonstrable correaltion with reality. Those aspects are both absent in ID. “The only question under debate is whether such patterns are confined to the realm of human cultural artifacts or if they are also found in nature.” There is no such debate for good reasons. Any supposed alternative to a naturalistic explanation is per definition supernatural. A purely fictional concept. There is not even a methodology to investigate it. The supernatural only exists in the minds of those who believe in it. A belief fuelled by various variations of fallacies, wishful thinking and a religious bias. Rob Davis
“Farina seems to be totally ignorant of the fact that there is no consensus among philosophers of science about a demarcation criterion that could reliably distinguish science from non-science.” That in itself, is a lie. The key difference between science and pseudoscience is that science is based on scientific and factual evidence, whereas pseudoscience is not. ID offers an appeal to mysterious “intelligence”, which in a fallacious act, is deemed responsible for aspects of our reality. This unfalsifiable claims per no meaningful definition an explanation. One mystery is not solved by appealing to a bigger mystery. That is why a theological one never replaced a naturalistic explanation. That’s why ID has never contributed anything to our understanding on nature. It was Michael Behe himself , a senior fellow of the only institution there is which is advocating for ID, who, under oath was obliged to admit that the definition of "theory" supplied by the US National Academy of Sciences did not encompass ID, and that his broader definition would allow astrology to be included as a scientific theory. There is an unambiguous consensus amongst scholars, that astrology is not science, the same applies for ID. Rob Davis
Querius writes:
So, let me suggest that trollbot posts should receive the response they deserve, which is no response.
And then, of course, he immediately ignores his own advice and proceeds to respond with "signal to noise ratios" and other such obscurities oblivious to the fact that no true Scots-person would waste his or her precious time trying to teach the unteachable.... ;-) chuckdarwin
Thank you, Kairosfocus. I did read it again, including, "Put a Sock Into It." One thing that I look for is additional, meaningful content. What I mean by this includes the following: - The comment is informed and doesn't require others to write a chapter of a book for them. - The comment raises an honest, scientifically based question or objection. So let's dissect an example.
Actually, I think Discovery Institute folks relish these faux controversies with bloggers like Professor Dave.
"Actually, I think"? Yes, who cares. Maybe I think you don't think. So what?
It’s like taking candy from a baby.
Trite statement and meaningless in context--a supposedly immutable fact. Others include assertions like "own goal," "leg before wicket, "easy as falling off a log," etc. Ultimately decreases the signal to noise ratio of the conversation. "Actually."
These fights appeal to the ID base and are about the only way these days that IDers can keep the narrative alive.
An unsupported pejorative assertion. One can simply substitute "evolutionists" for "IDers" or any other label resulting in more noise.
The actual, real scientists out there have better things to do with their time than get sucked into pointless spats with Discovery Institute people……..
As Kairosfocus pointed out, this is the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. It's also an ad hominem attack against some highly educated scientists who make the case that the presumption of design accelerates scientific progress. This is certainly not "pointless." So, let me suggest that trollbot posts should receive the response they deserve, which is no response. If such a post is very obviously something that a trollbot would automatically generate, then no more than a "troll" or "trollbot" designation might also be appropriate. Why? The purpose of trolling is to waste other people's time, deflect from the OP, and generate confusion and hostility. Such posts do not attempt to enlighten, compare, contrast, explain, correct, or otherwise engage intelligently with the information from the OP and are destructive. Please note that an informed objection is not a troll if it provides a scientific or logical basis for that objection. -Q Querius
CD
It’s like taking candy from a baby.
I agree that it's unfortunate to see someone as qualified as Dr. Bechly having to take candy from baby Dave, but its for the sake of 2 million subscribers there.
The actual, real scientists out there have better things to do with their time than get sucked into pointless spats with Discovery Institute people……..
They think they're above the fray because nobody in their bubble questions their theory. But in the outside world there are people like Professor Dave and his fanclub, and they're making a mess of evolution. The professional scientists think they don't have to defend themselves but they'll be blindsided by it. ID is ignored by them, but not by the general public. Silver Asiatic
@6 Good thing no one really cares what you think AaronS1978
"The actual, real scientists out there have better things to do" CD, I doubt it. Andrew asauber
CD, no true scotsman. KF kairosfocus
What a joke. Your alleged "actual, real scientists" don't have a scientific explanation for our existence. They don't even know what determines biological form. Meaning they don't know what determines the type of organism that will develop. But that is moot as they don't have a scientific explanation for sexual reproduction. So yes, obviously they have better things to do with their time. Things like finding evidentiary support for their asinine position. ET
ET/1 Actually, I think Discovery Institute folks relish these faux controversies with bloggers like Professor Dave. It's like taking candy from a baby. These fights appeal to the ID base and are about the only way these days that IDers can keep the narrative alive. The actual, real scientists out there have better things to do with their time than get sucked into pointless spats with Discovery Institute people........ chuckdarwin
PS, look at the comment policy tab and come back to us. kairosfocus
Q, we have taken time over a decade ago to create a resources tab, accessible on every UD page. It exposes and corrects the sort of weak claims in the OP. We have taken further time to address and correct various cases including this youtuber. Necessary, for record and for those who lurk. Beyond a certain point abusers of commentary privilege are banned. The point is, ID has been subjected to a big lie, domination of the message sources campaign driven by the manifestly nihilistic. Big lies backed by power -- look up Wikipedia on ID as a case in point -- cannot be ignored or answered with a one liner. There has to be accessible substance. The unresponsiveness to cogent correction speaks loud and clear. Yes, do not feed the trolls, beyond the point where their insistent disruptive behaviour is clear ban them. Whining about our censorship is little more than defence of trollish misconduct, especially when the same objectors are not seen leading the charge for correction of slander, big lie misinformation and censorship at Wikipedia. Not to mention, lawfare. KF kairosfocus
How about it, Kairosfocus? -Q Querius
What's especially telling is when a high school teacher with 2 million YouTube subscribers takes on professor of chemistry, computer science, and a nanotechnologist on YouTube, posts garbage, gets destroyed, but still announces "victory." "Professor" Dave merely demonstrates the triumph of clueless rhetoric, ad hominem attacks, and unsupported assertions over anything resembling science. It's the victory of the mouth over the brain. Of course, we've seen the same dynamic with the trolls/trollbots here. My contention is that the same type of trollbot responses will work for any subject, regardless of subject or any meaningful expertise. Maybe we should have a sign somewhere on this forum that reads, "Please don't feed the trollbots." What do you think? -Q Querius
it sucks that they have to respond to garbage. But it has to be done. ET

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