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At Evolution News: Günter Bechly repudiates “Professor Dave’s” attacks against ID

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Günter Bechly, Senior Fellow of the Center for Science and Culture, addresses the off-base accusations made against ID and the Discovery Institute.

Dave Farina is an atheist American YouTuber who runs a channel called Professor Dave Explains with almost two million subscribers.

The clichés and misrepresentations Farina recycles about intelligent design are beyond tired. Still, those new to the debate might find it helpful to see Farina’s false claims debunked.

Farina seems more interested in caricaturing those he disagrees with than understanding them.

Three Major Problems 

Farina also thinks that intelligent design theory “cannot be validated as real science because it does not explain or predict anything.” Here are three major problems with this statement:

Who defines what qualifies as “real science”? It is certainly not Dave Farina. It is not judges in court rooms. And it is not even the scientists themselves who define “science.” Reasonably, it is philosophers of science who address this question. But Farina seems to be totally ignorant of the fact that there is no consensus among philosophers of science about a demarcation criterion that could reliably distinguish science from non-science. Any criterion yet suggested, including Karl Popper’s criterion of falsifiability, either excludes too much (e.g., scientific fields like string theory or evolutionary biology) or includes too much (e.g., homeopathy or parapsychology).

Of course, intelligent design has explanatory power. Otherwise, we could not even explain the existence of Romeo and Juliet by the intelligent agency of William Shakespeare. There is no doubt that the designing activity of an intelligent agent is a perfectly valid explanation for complex specified patterns. The only question under debate is whether such patterns are confined to the realm of human cultural artifacts or if they are also found in nature. But this question should not be decided by dogmatic a priorirestrictions of certain worldviews that do not allow for design explanations whatever the evidence might be, but should rather follow the evidence wherever it leads. It is an empirical question to be decided by the data.

It is simply false that intelligent design does not predict anything. Indeed, this is yet another common stereotype that has been refuted so many times by ID proponents that any further use of this argument can be based only on a total ignorance of the facts (or perhaps deliberate lying, but I prefer not to apply that interpretation). Stephen Meyer (2009) included in his book Signature in the Cell a whole chapter with a dozen predictions inspired by intelligent design theory. These are often very precise and easily falsifiable, for example: “No undirected process will demonstrate the capacity to generate 500 bits of new [specified] information starting from a nonbiological source.” Just write a computer simulation that achieves this, without smuggling the information in through a backdoor, and you can claim victory over a core prediction of intelligent design.

Evolution News

Dr. Bechly addresses numerous additional misfires attempted by Professor Dave. With such a voluble spray of baseless accusations coming from someone like Professor Dave, it can be helpful to be reminded of the proverb, “Like a sparrow in its flitting, like a swallow in its flying, a curse that is causeless does not alight.” (Proverbs 26:2)

Comments
Tilting at windmills, KF.Fred Hickson
July 7, 2022
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ET
You and yours have quite a bit of work to do.
Indeed. Science is work in progress, as the Szostak lab demonstrates by its prolific publications. Where are the ID papers?Fred Hickson
July 7, 2022
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ET, I think one issue is, they conceive of evolution as evolutionary materialistic scientism, so any challenge to that reigning ideology is seen as anti science. They do not realise that this position, this ideology is self referentially incoherent in many ways and thus necessarily false. Self refuting. KFkairosfocus
July 7, 2022
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Querius @771 - thank you for posting that. It was such an absurd statement that I was rendered speechless. But as such - as you've said - we can add it to the tool kit.
(name), your comment at (comment_number), as I am reading it, is somewhat incoherent and bears little relation to events. If you want, I can reply in more detail when I have time, though the sentiments won’t change.
Yes. "Your comment was incoherent. I couldn't understand it - it did not make sense. But instead of asking for a clarification, I'll explain why I reject it. First, it doesn't relate to events. Again, I could request an explanation, but I fully understand what you were trying to do. It was perfectly clear. You simply didn't align it. So, while the comment was incoherent and I didn't understand it, I can assure you - no matter what you have to say, the sentiments I have will not change. That's why I have no need to ask for a clarification. Even though I didn't understand you, it's impossible that what you have to say could change my sentiments. Plus, I already know that you're wrong since it's perfectly clear what you were saying."Silver Asiatic
July 7, 2022
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UB @769 Excellent overview - thanks. That is the kind of detail that FH has avoided all along. I believe his entire argument is as you said: the self-replicating RNA itself would keep things going, while promiscuous molecules could build up all the other hardware until the grand transition to symbolic descriptions took place So there's a molecule that could survive and replicate without the need for DNA - and that means, it could therefore use the evolutionary mechanisms and DNA would emerge. But as you pointed out, the story is filled with The unexplained self-replicating RNA molecule appears. Then a discrete tRNA-like molecule appears. Then, a discrete aaRS-like molecule also appears. And these things somehow improve the purely dynamic self-replicating RNA. Then other essential elements appear. And this happens 20 times. FH then wonders "what now?" as if something has been solved or as if the ID position has been nullified.Silver Asiatic
July 7, 2022
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As a medical biochemist (aka chemical pathologist) and a biologist with training in evolutionary biology, I can't help but comment on Jack Szostak ideas regarding the issue of the origin of the genetic code. None of what he said about the issue in the context of the RNA world idea, and none of what is presented in one of the recent paper mentionned (Radakovic 2022 PNAS) has any chemical plausibility in my opinion. First of all, if we look at the 2022 Radakovic paper, what they show after very hard work, is that some rare RNA oligonucleotides with some (weak) ligase or amino-acyl transerase activity can bind to amino acids and in some cases retain some of these weak catalytic properties, albeit with reduced activity. As they say: "The greater lability of amino acid ester–phosphoramidate linkages to hydrolysis (5, 30) is likely to be responsible for the observed decrease in chimeric ribozyme activity with time. The chimeric ligase ribozyme has a half-life of 22 h in the presence of 10 mM Mg2+, which erodes its ligation activity over the course of the multihour reaction (Fig. 3C and SI Appendix, Fig. S7C). For faster transformations, such as the hammerhead cleavage, which uses 3 mM Mg2+, or reactions that occur at low tempera tures, such as the flexizyme aminoacylation, aminoacyl ester hydrolysis is negligible on the reaction timescale but imposes a limit on the overall lifetime of the chimeric ribozyme (SI Appendix, Figs. S4C and S11B)." As usual with RNA and ribozymes, catalytic activities are very weak and molecules are unstable. This has always plagued the RNA world hypothesis and no one has ever solved this inconvenient fact. And as usual with OoL research, the probability of any of these sorts of reactions occurring in natural prebiotic conditions is indistinguishable from zero. For example, the amio acid they used, Lysine, is, as they concede, not reasonably expected to be found in prebiotic environment: “Although high-yielding prebiotic syntheses of Lys are lacking, we reasoned that chime ric ribozymes bridged with Lys would present opportunities for future evolution of new functions that involve amino acid side chain groups not found in RNA. Our choice of L-Lys was also informed by the observation that L-Lys amino acid bridges were the most well tolerated within the hammerhead ribozyme…” How convenient ! But more importantly, even disregarding the complete chemical implausibility of this sort of scenario occurring on a prebiotic earth, none of that has anything to do with the issue raised by Upright Biped, namely, how can chemical bonds lead to symbolic bonds as in the genetic code. The issue has never been whether oligonucleotides can form chemical bonds with amino acids or peptides ! However, like this paper demonstrates eloquently, even getting RNA molecules to simply covalently bind to amino-acids or peptides is very hard and unstable ! Just to get an idea, they needed to let the reaction go for 16-18 hours at 0° C just for the flexizyme ribozyme to amino-acylate the oligonucleotides that would then be used as building blocks to be ligated to form the hammerhead ! But anyhow, nothing in this kind of paper has any relevance to the question. That this sort of wild, totally implausible, speculation is allowed to appear in a respectable journal like PNAS is embarrassing. The only reason for that I can think of is an a priori commitment by most of the scientific establishment to a naturalistic and atheistic metaphysics that requires abiogenesis to be true. Life is governed by a system of symbolic representation, aka a code or language. A code or language implies the notion of intentionality. Chemistry does not include such principle. Outside living cells, we know of no other chemical reaction governed by a code, not a single one, why ? The question is thus, how can chemistry become linguistic/informatics? So far, nobody has any clue.Jblais
July 7, 2022
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Fred Hickson:
So what now, ET, Querius?
You and yours have quite a bit of work to do. You need to find evidence for your fantasy RNA world, just for starters. But first, you need an education. Start with this- Intelligent Design is NOT anti-evolution. And if you cannot understand it then you do not belong here.ET
July 7, 2022
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UB:
of course, what Fred actually demonstrates (and Szostak confirms) is that there is no demonstration anywhere in science of the rise of encoded symbolic descriptions from dynamics. And thus, the first question I asked comes back to the front. The universal evidence that encoded symbol systems only come from intelligence remains universal, and the design inference remains empirically valid.
Yup, and in another thread, he is trying to pretend -- we can safely say, lie brazenly -- that D/RNA is not an information storage medium. See here on i/l/o what happens just above: follows https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/at-mind-matters-news-why-free-will-is-philosophically-and-scientifically-sound/#comment-760214 FH duly stands exposed and corrected. KF PS, Szostak:
he origin of the aaRS enzymes is an important issue, because obviously coded protein synthesis by the ribosome could not have evolved if the aminoacylated tRNAs did not already exist.
FH has been told by the expert he consulted to attack UD, that D/RNA is a coded, information bearing system, and that this is OBVIOUS. Yet, he continued his rhetorical stunts. That tells us all we need to know about utter irresponsibility.kairosfocus
July 7, 2022
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F/N: FH confesses to being a long time objector banned several times. Thus, we can safely conclude, his behaviour has been repeatedly marginal to unacceptable and/or abusive. That goes a long way to explaining what we now see. Expose and correct for record the trolls and their fallacies but don't entertain them. KFkairosfocus
July 7, 2022
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So what now, ET, Querius?Fred Hickson
July 6, 2022
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ET @773, Exactly. Horse and buggy--haha! Did you just hear a bu-bump sound? -QQuerius
July 6, 2022
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Fred Hickson:
So what now, Upright Biped?
You need to find evidentiary support for your ideas. Without that, the horse and buggy runs you over.ET
July 6, 2022
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Did Fred really say that UD is an anti-evolution site? Why are you so openly dishonest, Fred?ET
July 6, 2022
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For one thing, I'm adding 739 into my growing troll response collection:
(name), your comment at (comment_number), as I am reading it, is somewhat incoherent and bears little relation to events. If you want, I can reply in more detail when I have time, though the sentiments won’t change.
Once again, we can see the raw power of vacuous assertions and denials as irrefutable arguments. After a clueless ideologue's arguments are destroyed, they simply - Deny that the argument was coherent - Pretend that they don't understand - Respond with an ad hominem attack - Demand references requiring research time, only to blow them off when they're posted - Brag that no one has ever been able to refute their supposedly ironclad position - Announce that they've actually won! - etc. Once available from an extensive troll library, they can be pelted into the comments, requiring no actual thought or effort. As one can see from the one quoted above, such responses can be reused in almost any discussion, often with no changes needed. -QQuerius
July 6, 2022
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So what now, Upright Biped?Fred Hickson
July 6, 2022
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. The long and the short of it is that Szostak doesn’t provide a direct answer to the question, but he does provide the clues necessary to understand what his answer would be, must be. As I eluded to in comment #761 to Fred… A purely dynamic self-replicating RNA appears. Then a discrete tRNA-like molecule appears from this purely dynamic self-replicating RNA, carrying with it a future anti-codon corresponding to one of the many amino acids (pick one, valine) to be specified by a future protein synthesis. Then, a discrete aaRS-like molecule also appears from this purely dynamic self-replicating RNA. This aaRS-like molecule then binds the tRNA-like molecule to a valine amino acid, and this binding somehow improves the purely dynamic self-replicating RNA, and they become a fixed part that purely dynamic self-replicating RNA. Then, yet another discrete tRNA-like molecule appears from this purely dynamic self-replicating RNA, carrying with it the future anticodon of another of the many amino acids (pick one, glutamine) to be specified by a future protein synthesis. Then, yet another discrete aaRS-like molecule appears from this purely dynamic self-replicating RNA. This aaRS-like molecule then binds the new tRNA-like molecule to a glutamine amino acid, and this binding somehow improves the purely dynamic self-replicating RNA, and they become a fixed part of that purely dynamic self-replicating RNA. Then, just as before, yet another discrete tRNA-like molecule appears from this purely dynamic self-replicating RNA, carrying with it the future anticodon of yet another of the many amino acids (pick one, leucine) to be specified by a future protein synthesis. Then, as before, yet another discrete aaRS-like molecule appears from this purely dynamic self-replicating RNA. This aaRS-like molecule then binds the new tRNA-like molecule to a leucine amino acid, and this binding somehow improves the purely dynamic self-replicating RNA, and they become a fixed part of that purely dynamic self-replicating RNA. Over and over, again and again, this process of spitting out discrete objects from this purely dynamic self-replicating RNA continues. It continues until all the amino acids that have to be specified in the future protein synthesis have become physically associated to their future anticodons — thereby establishing the future codons as tokens of memory. And then something truly usual happens; an mRNA-like molecule appears that just happens to have a sequence (hundreds of bases in length) that is entirely coherent with all of those associations previously set by the purely dynamic RNA — such that, if this mRNA-like molecule was to come into proximity of all those discrete tRNA-like molecules (each dutifully charged by its own aaRS-like molecule) it would result in the specification and construction of a genuine protein aaRS, which would then replace its aaRS-like RNA precursor from that point forward. This is the scenario that makes Fred’s answer “None” a possible candidate answer to the actual question asked. And this appearance of a long fully-coherent mRNA-like molecule, would then happen over and over and over again, establishing the genetic code as we find it today. As Fred happily points out, the self-replicating RNA itself would keep things going, while promiscuous molecules could build up all the other hardware until the grand transition to symbolic descriptions took place. It’s simple. The whole complicated translation machinery of the DNA/Protein World doesn’t need to rise all at once — with the RNA World it can arise twice instead. - - - - - - - - - - … of course, what Fred actually demonstrates (and Szostak confirms) is that there is no demonstration anywhere in science of the rise of encoded symbolic descriptions from dynamics. And thus, the first question I asked comes back to the front. The universal evidence that encoded symbol systems only come from intelligence remains universal, and the design inference remains empirically valid. The last I heard, that is the way science works.Upright BiPed
July 6, 2022
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. Fred posted a copy of his correspondence with Jack Szostak on a different thread. I waited a full day to see if he was going to post it here where the idea originated. I’ll do it for him.
Hi Professor Szostak Please excuse my presumption in contacting you personally. I’m a retired layman who spent three years studying biochemistry (1968 -1971, [redacted] University) but was not good enough to follow a career in academia. I do try to maintain a current interest in the field and became very involved in internet discussions beginning 2005, with the events around the Kitzmiller v. Dover School Board. Your iconic paper, Functional proteins from a random-sequence library, often featured in those and later discussions. I write to you now because of an interview you gave recently published in Quanta Magazine (How Could Life Evolve From Cyanide?) which was picked up by an anti-evolution site, Uncommon Descent, where I am active (under a pseudonym, Fred Hickson, as I’ve previously been banned there several times) and another commenter made this point:
He goes on the mention the roles mRNA, and rRNA, and tRNA … and never mentions the appearance of aaRS or the critical role it plays in the living cell. I wonder why.
This commenter (pseudonym Upright Biped) maintains that aaRSs raise the chicken-and-egg problem of how the genetic code could evolve prior to proteins adopting the role of catalysis from ribozymes or conversely how could proteins have adopted the role prior to the genetic code evolving due to the arbitrary connection between the charged amino acid and the tRNA codon. I suggested we could simply ask you. A friend, a professional biochemist, thought this paper of yours (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10625423/) is probably enough of an answer, although I can only access the abstract.[ed – free access PDF found since and mentioned upthread] I agreed to include the specific question Upright Biped wanted to ask you:
Aminoacyl tRNA synthetase (aaRS) play a fundamental role in establishing the genetic code. They are sizable proteins that are specified from genetic memory via mRNA. It stands to reason that they did not always exist on earth, which implies that there was once (at some point in the distant past) the very first time that an aaRS was successfully synthesized from that genetic memory and then went on to serve its role in establishing the genetic code. Regardless of what any person might propose to have occurred prior to that event, at that particular point in time, how many of the other aaRS would need to be in place?
Anyway, if you got this far reading, I much appreciate that you did and would be most grateful for any comment you may offer. It feels surreal to be sending an email to a real-life Nobel laureate! My best wishes [redacted]
Prof Szostak responded thus:
Dear [redacted], The origin of the aaRS enzymes is an important issue, because obviously coded protein synthesis by the ribosome could not have evolved if the aminoacylated tRNAs did not already exist. The paper you noted shows that RNA enzymes (ribozymes) could act as aaRSs, so that helps to some extent, in the sense that the evolution of a set of aaRS ribozymes could have evolved in the RNA World, that early phase of life prior to the evolution of coded protein synthesis. But why would aaRS ribozymes have evolved if there was no ribosomal machinery to use their products (aminoacylated RNAs) to make proteins? One possible answer, which my lab is exploring, is that aminoacylated RNAs had some early function, prior to their use as substrates for the ribosome. For example, aminoacylation may have facilitated the assembly of early ribozymes. If aminoacylated RNAs had some such early function, there would have been a selective pressure for the evolution of aaRS ribozymes. I have attached pdf’s of two of our papers on this subject. We’re still working on this, and exploring related questions, such as the function of the first peptides. As with all of the so-called chicken-and-egg paradoxes in the origin and evolution of life, the answer comes from breaking down the evolutionary process into a series of smaller steps, all of which can happen sequentially. Best wishes, Jack
Upright BiPed
July 6, 2022
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Maybe continue on the thread on Jack Szostaks recent interview for Quanta Magazine: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/how-could-life-evolve-from-cyanide/Fred Hickson
July 5, 2022
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I invite folks to check out the phenomenon of wobble pairing. And maybe promiscuity versus specificity as regards to biochemical catalysis.Fred Hickson
July 5, 2022
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Upright Biped's question to Fred Hickson:
Regardless of what you believe may have come before that event occurred, at that point in time, how many of the other aaRS constraints has to be in place?
Upright Biped,s question for me to pass on to Jack Szostak:
Regardless of what any person might propose to have occurred prior to that event, at that particular point in time, how many of the other aaRS would need to be in place?
There's a clear difference between "constraint" and "aaRS". My answer to the modified question (and also Professor Szostak's answer, if my understanding is correct) is none (one to start with). Additionally, it seems aaRSs had a precursor role, aaRSs can be ribozymes, aaRSs can be chimeras consisting of ribonucleotides covalently linked to amino-acids. Much food for thought.Fred Hickson
July 5, 2022
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. Fred, In case you are wondering why we must to be clear about the details, I point you back to the top of this conversation:
RNA World proponents invariably start their proposals with a presumed abiotic environment and then … move from an unknown condition to another unknown condition, then to another unknown condition after that (…) this type of question takes us from a known condition and asks how we might get there from the proposed explanation.
We already know the physical requirements of the system. The actual transition from dynamics to descriptions is the critical issue to address.Upright BiPed
July 3, 2022
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JVL @ 227:
Really? So . . . counting the lengths of the gaps between the pulses of quasars is not nature producing a sequence? The rings of Saturn is not a pattern that can be represented numerically?
You conflate the map with the territory, a very widespread misinterpretation. The territory exists objectively regardless of a mind, a mind creates a representation of it and commits it to matter in the form of a meaningful pattern of pixels on the screen. Meaningful is local, defined by local constraints, to achieve a pragmatic result. It is you who does the counting. Counting assumes some already established information processing context. You conveniently leave the mind out of the equation, and here goes your 'nature did it'. Nature does not care. All nature creates is regularity or chaos. Both have very low information carrying capacity.EugeneS
July 3, 2022
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Is Farina the same chap who argued with Tour? Interesting... In which case, I am grateful to Farina because his critique has caused Tour's videos on abiogenesis to appear ;)EugeneS
July 3, 2022
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. #757
you have changed the phrasing to “how many of the other aaRSs have to be in place”.
I think I see your point. I changed the phrasing from “need to be in place” to ”have to be in place”. Nope, I don’t see your point.
My answer is none, of course, in line with my previous answer of “one”.
Okay. A codon in mRNA is a token in genetic memory (i.e. a rate-independent token, not a dynamic template). They are established by individual physical constraints, one for each amino acid to be specified by the system. How was the first-ever functioning aaRS (meaning it was constructed and served its function, typically requiring hundreds of amino acids in length) specified by tokens in genetic memory, if there are no constraints in the system to establish those tokens? When you say “none”, are you suggesting that just prior to the synthesis of the first functioning aaRS, there was 1) a coordinated suite of RNA precursors to aaRS that themselves did the work of aaRS in establishing the codons as tokens of memory, and 2) there was also a sequence mRNA that was coherent with that suite of aaRS precursors —such that when the sequence of codons was read, it would cause the assembly of a protein aaRS that would then replace one of those RNA precursors in the system? Is that the context that makes “none” a coherent answer to the question? Or, is the answer “none” referring to some prior state of the system, before the first aaRS was synthesized from genetic memory via mRNA and went on to serve its function? Which is it?Upright BiPed
July 3, 2022
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Fred Hickson You haven’t been following closely. Upright Biped raised amino-acyl tRNA synthetases as an issue for evolutionary explanations.
:lol: Well for UB to mention aaRS (or any other element) in the actual functional symbolic system (DNA, RNA, ribosomes,etc) it's logic but for you to mention aaRS as part of an imaginary RNA system doesn't make sense. You come with this imaginary system on which you ground your imaginary conclusions. Imagination is not science even if you call it science .Lieutenant Commander Data
July 3, 2022
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LCD
I have no idea why he [Fred Hickson] has chosen aaRS and not any other component involved in translation.
You haven't been following closely. Upright Biped raised amino-acyl tRNA synthetases as an issue for evolutionary explanations.Fred Hickson
July 3, 2022
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Have emailed Professor Szostak including UB's question verbatim. I'll post his reply if I get one (assuming he agrees to publication) together with my email to him.Fred Hickson
July 3, 2022
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Upright Biped (comment 751)
I think that’s a good idea. Allow me to suggest a question...
Great stuff and thanks for restating your question which I will pass on verbatim. Incidentally, it clarifies the point about the question I asked earlier in the thread as you have changed the phrasing to "how many of the other aaRSs have to be in place". (My answer is none, of course, in line with my previous answer of "one".) I'll get to it tomorrow (later today. ;) ).Fred Hickson
July 3, 2022
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Upright BiPed how many of the other aaRS would need to be in place?
It's so funny to see how people try to explain to Fred about 21st century biology. He said that there is no genetic language but in the same time he brings as evidence exactly the components used for decoding the genetic language. (aaRS are just few subcomponents among many others of translation process). I have no idea why he has chosen aaRS and not any other component involved in translation. Maybe he wants to sound more intelligent than he is because the ability of the aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases to recognize tRNAs is called ,guess what :the “second genetic code.”:lol: This recognition process is necessary to maintain the fidelity of genetic information. The frequency of error for aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases is less than 10^-5.Mutations of aaRS are very dangerous that's why mechanisms reduce errors to less than one wrong amino acid in 100,000. As Fred very corectly said it's a piece of cake , you don't need coded language or multiple mechanisms to mantain fidelity of information you just need a big chunk of ignorance and a "hydrogen bond" and miracles just happen. Of course the genetic code /ribosomal subunits/mechanisms of error correcting/all 20 specific aaRS for every aminoacid/ are in place from the beginning or life can't exist. Not to mention complete mechanism for cell division/energy /cellular signalling/ etc.Lieutenant Commander Data
July 2, 2022
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FH With your clarifications I'll add these to the ideas you presented: -- The environment is non-random -- DNA is not in any sense analogous to human language. -- DNA can be called a symbol systemSilver Asiatic
July 2, 2022
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