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Evolution is a Fact!

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Just so we are clear, I am certain that everyone who posts at this site believes evolution is a fact (or fact! fact! fact! as some of our more breathless opponents prefer). 

Whoa Barry!  Are you telling us that Uncommon Descent does not oppose the concept of evolution?  Yes, I am telling you exactly that.

Then what is all the fuss and disagreement about?  I’m glad you asked.  But before I answer that question, let me begin with what the fuss and disagreement are NOT about.

 The fuss and the disagreement are not about whether evolution occurred.  Obviously evolution occurred if by “evolution” one means, “things are different now than they were in the past.”  I don’t know anyone who disagrees with that.  That bare fact is uninteresting, even trivial. 

The important question is not WHETHER things are different now than they were in the past.  They obviously are.  The important question is “WHY are things different now than they were in the past?”  As Phil Johnson has pointed out, the Darwinist starts with the following proposition:  “Given materialist premises, Darwinian evolution or something very much like it simply must be true.”  Therefore, since the Darwinist already “knows” that Darwinian evolution exhausts all of the options open to investigation, he interprets all of the data to – big surprise here – confirm Darwinian evolution.  It is almost literally the case that a Darwinist is incapable of seeing data that does not confirm or tends to disconfirm his theory. 

But the Darwinist’s initial premise is false even on materialist terms.  Even uber-materialist Richard Dawkins admits that the complexity and diversity of life might be the result of the actions of super-intelligent aliens.  This explanation requires no supernatural act to have occurred and violates no precept either of philosophical or methodological materialism.

Therefore, the fuss and the disagreement is about whether “intelligent cause” must be ruled out from the beginning as a possible causal factor for why things are different now than they were in the past.  It is exactly like two police detectives standing over the body of a person whose head has been bashed in by a blunt object and having the following conversation:

Columbo:  “I am a materialist.  Therefore, given my premises I know for a certain fact that this person’s death must have been caused by blind, unguided natural forces.  Therefore, I already know that all of the data I find will support that conclusion.  Moreover, the certain knowledge I have before I ever even look at the data means I will never even have to consider the possibility that this person’s death was caused by the acts of an intelligent agent, and I can safely ignore any data that might tend to disprove my starting point or confirm an “intelligent agent” theory.  My theory is that a rock fell from above and hit him in the head.  Probably the rock was dislodged from the side of a hill by the wind or rain and rolled down the hill and smacked him.  Bad luck all around.  By the way, I call the rolling rock theory a “theory” only for form’s sake.  We both know it is a fact! fact! fact!  Bad luck all around.  Case closed.”

Holmes:  “I am not going to make up my mind in advance about whether this death resulted from blind, unguided and exceedingly bad luck or whether it is the result of the acts of an intelligent agent, that is to say, murder.  By the way, I am willing to assume materialist premises too, at least on a methodological basis, but you are wrong to say that assumption precludes the act of an intelligent agent.  All murderers of whom I am aware have been quite human.  I understand your rolling rock theory, and I just don’t think it is supported by the data.  First of all, the body is almost at the top of the hill, so it is unlikely that even if a rock were dislodged by the wind and rain it could have gathered enough momentum to do the work you ascribe to it.  Also, I note that there are no bloody rocks anywhere around the body.  Finally, I note the presence of a bloody club near the body, and on that club are the fingerprints of the dead person’s worst enemy who swore to kill him only two days ago.  I conclude that the “accident theory” while not impossible from a mathematical or logical perspective is not the most likely explanation.  This scene bears indicia of design.  I conclude the victim was murdered.”

 Columbo:  “Fundamentalist cretin!”

If the case were to proceed to trial, we might also have this:

Judge Jones:  “I understand that Holmes went to Sunday School when  he was  a child.  Therefore, his theory must be disregarded as the musings of a religious fanatic.  Case dismissed.  Bailiff, set the defendant free!”

Comments
absolutist, #100
camanintx #97 “Maybe you should tell the Murex snail or the Nautilus that their less than complete eyes do not work.” Showing less complicated eyes is like showing less complicated mousetraps.
Thank you for refuting the concept of Irreducable Complexity.camanintx
September 27, 2009
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Joseph [from 105] (to camantix) "The snail and nautilus have complete vision systems. So what the heck are you talking about?" I believe his/her point was that the eyes of a nautilus are much simpler than our are, and represent an earlier stage in the development of eyes. Remember gradualism? At every stage, the eye has to be functional. 50% of an eye has to be better than 49% of an eye. Well, from our point of view the nautilus DOES have 50% of an eye. And it works. Just not as precisely as ours. It is nevertheless more use than 49% of an eye. I suggest you take another look at the link he/she cited: http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/43/79543-004-C3F00EE8.jpg [from 106} "I asked for SCIENTIFIC evidence for natural selection designing something from scratch. For that Ritchie presents lenski which isn;t anytrhing from scratch but something from an already existing organism. From SCRATCH Ritchie." You do realise, I hope, that evolution cannot produce something from absolutely nothing at all? It can only adapt what is already there? So asking for something FROM SCRATCH is a bit unfair, because that is not how evolution operates. Small mutations simply produce small differences, which eventually become big differences. Macroevolution from microevolution. That was the relevance of the links I posted. Nevertheless, I assume you are talking about big features such as eyes or limbs. Those work for me. I'll cite the eye then as evolution producing something 'from scratch' (though technically not true, it is what I presume you are asking for). Here's a link to help: http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20050822230316data_trunc_sys.shtml "And again EVOLUTION is NOT being debated." No? Then why do you not see it as amply sufficient to explain all the species, and all the features of all the species we find in nature? That you are still confused about this demonstrates you do not undersatnd the debate.Ritchie
September 27, 2009
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I asked for SCIENTIFIC evidence for natural selection designing something from scratch. For that Ritchie presents lenski which isn;t anytrhing from scratch but something from an already existing organism. From SCRATCH Ritchie. And again EVOLUTION is NOT being debated. That you are still confused about this demonstrates you do not undersatnd the debate.Joseph
September 26, 2009
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camantix, The snail and nautilus have complete vision systems. So what the heck are you talking about?Joseph
September 26, 2009
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absolutist, #99
So what makes the free decisions (moral or not) if it’s not the brain itself? Something that’s not fragmented for starters, something uncomposed or simple. Some substance deeply integrated in the body, but immaterial. The dreaded word – a soul.
Complex adaptive systems can exhibit some very interesting behavior, can't they?camanintx
September 26, 2009
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absolutist [from 100] "Showing less complicated eyes is like showing less complicated mousetraps." You are missing the point. The fact that 'simpler' eyes work mean that complicated ones can evolve from them. Complicated eyes are not irreducibly complex! Nor are simple eyes, by extension. StephenB [from 102] "Dr. Hunter agrees that “things are different now than they were in the past,” which is the way BarryA defined “evolution.”" BarryA may define it so, but who else does? That is simply not the biological definition of evolution.Ritchie
September 26, 2009
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---Larry Tanner: "I had assumed that Dr. Cornelius Hunter disagrees that ‘evolution is a fact.’ Many of Dr. Hunter’s posts object to scientists saying or implying that evolution is a fact." Dr. Hunter agrees that "things are different now than they were in the past," which is the way BarryA defined "evolution."StephenB
September 26, 2009
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From the OP:
Just so we are clear, I am certain that everyone who posts at this site believes evolution is a fact (or fact! fact! fact! as some of our more breathless opponents prefer).
I had assumed that Dr. Cornelius Hunter disagrees that 'evolution is a fact.' Many of Dr. Hunter's posts object to scientists saying or implying that evolution is a fact.Larry Tanner
September 26, 2009
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camanintx #97 "Maybe you should tell the Murex snail or the Nautilus that their less than complete eyes do not work." Showing less complicated eyes is like showing less complicated mousetraps.absolutist
September 26, 2009
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camanintx, #94 Thanks for the link. In the article summary you provided "this delay presumably reflects the operation of a network of high-level control areas that begin to prepare an upcoming decision long before it enters awareness." (emph. mine) The word "presumably" indicates an hypothesis or theory for the existence of (a complex rearrangement of matter into) "high-level control areas" (of the brain), not certainty. Unfortunately biological parts, or a complex rearrangement of them, do not know the difference between desiring to be a good investigator (as opposed to being incompetent) or answering questions truthfully (as opposed to dishonorably), persons do. So what makes the free decisions (moral or not) if it's not the brain itself? Something that's not fragmented for starters, something uncomposed or simple. Some substance deeply integrated in the body, but immaterial. The dreaded word - a soul.absolutist
September 26, 2009
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Joseph [from 96] "Perhaps you can just post some of the alleged evidence." Perhaps I can. You be the judge. For one thing he points to this experiment by Richard Lenski which shows evolution happening right before our eyes: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html And here is a very interesting exchange relating to this study: http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Lenski_affair Then there's this fascinating study: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080417112433.htm Although I think my favourite piece of evidence is not mentioned in his book, but it is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEtnyx0Yo9I I am only halfway through the book so there's more to go. Nevertheless, I think this should be enough for you to be getting on with. "BTW Dawkins doesn’t even know what makes an organism what it is." Why isn't 'it's genes' a good enopugh answer? "He doesn’t have any clue as to what is responsible for eye development, nevermind its evolution. He also makes the mistake of saying 50% of an eye is better than 49% ebven though the system doesn’t work until it is 100% complete." Utter nonsense. Check this link out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUOpaFVgKPw "IOW can Dawkins misrepresent reality and then say that misrepresentation supports his cklaims? Sure- he has done exactly that before." Has he? Where? "Ya see I have read several of his books and they are all very flawed." Which ones?Ritchie
September 26, 2009
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Joseph, #96
BTW Dawkins doesn’t even know what makes an organism what it is. He doesn’t have any clue as to what is responsible for eye development, nevermind its evolution. He also makes the mistake of saying 50% of an eye is better than 49% ebven though the system doesn’t work until it is 100% complete.
Maybe you should tell the Murex snail or the Nautilus that their less than complete eyes do not work.camanintx
September 26, 2009
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If Dawkins has scientific evidence then he needs to get in into a scientific journal. Perhaps you can just post some of the alleged evidence. BTW Dawkins doesn't even know what makes an organism what it is. He doesn't have any clue as to what is responsible for eye development, nevermind its evolution. He also makes the mistake of saying 50% of an eye is better than 49% ebven though the system doesn't work until it is 100% complete. IOW can Dawkins misrepresent reality and then say that misrepresentation supports his cklaims? Sure- he has done exactly that before. So how about an example of natural selection designing something from scratch. That way I can decide if the book is worth reading or not. Ya see I have read several of his books and they are all very flawed. I need a valdi reason to waste any more of my time on Dawkins.Joseph
September 26, 2009
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Joseph [from 93] "Excuse me but there isn’t any evidence that natural selction can design anything from scratch. So what evidence did Darwin think he found? What evidence does Dawkins think there is?" Not wanting to sound like I'm blatantly on Dawkins' PR team, but Dawkins has just written a book answering that very question - The Greatest Show On Earth. There is a tonne of evidence that natural selection 'designs' things from scratch. Now will you rise to the challenge and actually READ it, or will you simply ignore it and continue to insist that there isn't any evidence? I wonder...Ritchie
September 26, 2009
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Absolutist, #87
Which chemical reactions have you observed that gives you the desire to be a good investigator, or forced you to write the question you posed?
Maybe these? Unconscious determinants of free decisions in the human braincamanintx
September 25, 2009
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Excuse me but there isn't any evidence that natural selction can design anything from scratch. So what evidence did Darwin think he found? What evidence does Dawkins think there is? If the refusal to accept/ allow the design inference is evidence, well...Joseph
September 23, 2009
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Moseph:
Can you provide credible evidence of the origin of codes, algorithms, data structures and reading-executing machinery by non-human intelligence?
Of course by "credible evidence" Moseph means a meeting with the designer(s).Joseph
September 23, 2009
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camanintx (86): "Can you provide any credible evidence that the “mind” exists independently from the chemical reactions we observe within the brain?" Take the trouble to read O'Leary and Beauregard's The Spiritual Brain, Tart's The End of Materialism, Radin's The Conscious Universe and Entangled Minds. Or maybe you think you don't need to look at the data.magnan
September 23, 2009
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#88 I am sure Seversky will make this point better than me - but you misrepresent Dawkins. As a reminder your question was: how do you know scientifically that the properties of Nature are such that any apparent design we observe in biological systems can not be actual design, even in principle? He does not not dismiss actual design in principle. He dismisses it because he believes there is incontrovertible evidence for an alternative - natural selection. In fact he has a lot of sympathy for Paley who did not have the benefit of this knowledge. He writes: I could not imagine being an atheist before 1859Mark Frank
September 23, 2009
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DonaldM:
It is precisely what Richard Dawkins’s claim is in The Blind Watchmaker. Indeed, its the point of the entire book. Dawkins is almost poetic in his awe of nature’s designs….it just the design is only apparent and not actual and (per Dawkins) easily explained via Darwinian processes.
To argue that design in biology is only apparent is quite different from arguing that design in biology could not, even in principle, be actual. I don't recall Dawkins arguing the latter in TBW, but perhaps you could provide some quotes.R0b
September 23, 2009
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Seversky (in #34)
Name a materialist who has actually claimed precisely that. otherwise your question is a strawman and not worth the answering.
It is precisely what Richard Dawkins's claim is in The Blind Watchmaker. Indeed, its the point of the entire book. Dawkins is almost poetic in his awe of nature's designs....it just the design is only apparent and not actual and (per Dawkins) easily explained via Darwinian processes. He follows up the same theme in Climbing Mount Improbable. My question isn't a strawman at all, but cuts to the very heart of the issue...namely that the philosophical worldview of naturalism is simply taken for granted by many in science, especially among those who write the popular books aimed at explaining the findings of science to the general public. Another question is: how do you know scientifically that the properties of the Cosmos are such that Nature is a completely closed system of natural cause and effect? On Naturalism, that is the claim being made. But absent a scientific case for that hypothesis, (and there isn't one), the rest is mere bluff and bluster.DonaldM
September 23, 2009
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kairosfocus #83: Thanks for the link you provided. In the car on our way to (public) school this morning my daughter asked me to quiz her on her 5th grade science test. I asked "What does observing mean?" She replied: "Using the five senses to find out information about things." I asked another "What does inferring mean?" She answered: "Coming up with ideas to explain the observations." I had to ask: "Honey, what do you use to make inferences?" She thought for a second... "My mind" she exclaimed! I would have probably reiterated to her that she can actually observe things with her eyes closed but the teacher might send a note of concern home (afterall I can see things quite well while I dream or close my eyes, and a Designer does not need eyes to observe things). This leads me to: camanintx #85,
Can you provide any credible evidence that the “mind” exists independently from the chemical reactions we observe within the brain?
Certainly. Mind or consciousness exists in different states: thought, desires, volition, beliefs, sensations. Would it be fair to say that my belief about the history of calculus or the multiplication table (or my other thousands of beliefs) are never spatially located, especially when I'm not thinking about them? You may be able to establish correlation with an area of my brain while I'm thinking about them but that does nothing to show that thoughts or beliefs are identical to chemical reactions you speak of. It would be for you to prove that my beliefs in question are identical to a particular set of chemicals or active area of my brain. The only way you would know I'm thinking about calculus by the way is if I told you so. I can only know it from a first person's perspective. Activity in my brain is not the same thing as what I'm thinking or believing. The other thing is the problem you now have with information. Two points worth repeating. First, you can write two sentences down on separate sheets of paper, one in French and one in English conveying the same information which is on neither sheet of paper. Information comes from mind not matter. Second, I don't suspect you walk into a room and ask yourself which body is yours. You simply know which body is yours from a first person perspective. You do not need to know (much less observe) whether the correct chemical reactions are there. You know it differently than which cell phone is yours. Which chemical reactions have you observed that gives you the desire to be a good investigator, or forced you to write the question you posed?absolutist
September 23, 2009
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kairosfocus, #83
Mind is implicated in communication in symbols. And, that extends to the known cases of origin of algorithmic info, both on the data structure side and the execution process side. Can you provide credible evidence of the origin of codes, algorithms, data structures and reading-executing machinery by chance + necessity without intelligence? If not, you need to do some serious re-thinking. GEM of TKI
Can you provide any credible evidence that the "mind" exists independently from the chemical reactions we observe within the brain? If not, then you need to do some serious re-thinking.camanintx
September 23, 2009
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Moseph You wrote (#79):
If vjtorley is unaware that theistic explanations have largely been the default up until recently, historically speaking, then I’m afraid I’ll not be the person to educate him otherwise.
But that wasn't what you originally claimed. What you originally served up in your earlier post (#52) was some codswallop about primitive peoples believing that the gods lived high up in the mountains:
Originally people thought that gods living behind clouds on the top of mountains made everything happen.
Now, many of the ancient Greeks did believe that their principal gods resided on Mt. Olympus, but the Jews, Hindus and Chinese certainly didn't believe any such tripe. That was why I had to laugh at your jibe, "Crack open a book maybe?" in response to my demand for a citation. By the way, I've been cracking open books all my life. You might like to try it some time. I should also add that you are quite mistaken when you assert that once upon a time, most people believed that the gods "made everything happen." If they'd seriously believed in such fatalistic nonsense, they wouldn't have bothered trying to court the gods' favor, by offering sacrifices and asking priests to intercede on their behalf with the gods. Some eminent philosophers have denied free will; common folk rarely subscribe to such lunacy. Neither do law-makers. Every society in history has punished wrongdoers - something which would make no sense at all if it was widely believed that wrongdoers couldn't help doing what they did. After all, we don't put chimps in jail. In any case, societies which believed in multiple gods usually did not believe that these gods were omnipotent. The ancient Greeks, for instance, believed that their gods were immortal but not all-powerful: they too were subject to fate, which over-rode everything. Finally, I would question your naive assumption that polytheism (belief in "gods," as opposed to God) is the primitive and natural creed of the human race. Had you studied ancient Chinese, Indian and North American religion, you might have realized that belief in a High God was quite widespread in antiquity - even if it usually coexisted with belief in other, lesser gods. I have studied comparative religion, and I've read many of the sacred books of other religions. I would invite you to do the same.vjtorley
September 23, 2009
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Kairosfocus
Can you provide credible evidence of the origin of codes, algorithms, data structures and reading-executing machinery by chance + necessity without intelligence?
Can you provide credible evidence of the origin of codes, algorithms, data structures and reading-executing machinery by non-human intelligence? If not, you need to do some serious re-thinking.Moseph
September 23, 2009
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CIT: The butterfly and nature alphabets are nice, but have one failing, the flip side of your in the imagination. Mind is implicated in communication in symbols. And, that extends to the known cases of origin of algorithmic info, both on the data structure side and the execution process side. Can you provide credible evidence of the origin of codes, algorithms, data structures and reading-executing machinery by chance + necessity without intelligence? If not, you need to do some serious re-thinking. GEM of TKI PS: Notice the apparent upper limit of one (or maybe a few?) character[s], too? Show us some cases of contextually responsive and accurate or specifically functional messages of significant complexity known to have originated by chance + necessity without intelligent direction.kairosfocus
September 23, 2009
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Ritchie:
Has irreducible complexity been thoroughly established?
Established enough that it hasn't been falsified. ” Also demonstrate that the apparent command & control can also be explained by endothermic and/or exothermic reactions.”
But I’m not sure I follow it. Any ideas?
The flagellum- it needs to be controlled. Something has to control it. It is useless without that control. So either it is controlled just by the fact it exists OR there is something else required.Joseph
September 23, 2009
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Moseph:
When Joseph starts to educate me I’ll let you know.
Can't educate the willfully ignorant.Joseph
September 23, 2009
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tsmith, #78
Evolution is perfectly capable of filling the roll of designer. It is the “intelligent” part of your theory which it conflicts with.
how can anything be ‘designed’ without intelligence???
When the design is in the imagination of the observer.camanintx
September 22, 2009
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Clive
Didn’t you ask for citations in a comment above to Joseph?
A citation for a specific point. Not a period of history. If vjtorley is unaware that theistic explanations have largely been the default up until recently, historically speaking, then I'm afraid I'll not be the person to educate him otherwise.
Is Joseph here to educate you but you’re not here to educate anyone else?
I don't know. When Joseph starts to educate me I'll let you know.Moseph
September 22, 2009
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