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At Evolution News: Günter Bechly repudiates “Professor Dave’s” attacks against ID

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Günter Bechly, Senior Fellow of the Center for Science and Culture, addresses the off-base accusations made against ID and the Discovery Institute.

Dave Farina is an atheist American YouTuber who runs a channel called Professor Dave Explains with almost two million subscribers.

The clichés and misrepresentations Farina recycles about intelligent design are beyond tired. Still, those new to the debate might find it helpful to see Farina’s false claims debunked.

Farina seems more interested in caricaturing those he disagrees with than understanding them.

Three Major Problems 

Farina also thinks that intelligent design theory “cannot be validated as real science because it does not explain or predict anything.” Here are three major problems with this statement:

Who defines what qualifies as “real science”? It is certainly not Dave Farina. It is not judges in court rooms. And it is not even the scientists themselves who define “science.” Reasonably, it is philosophers of science who address this question. But Farina seems to be totally ignorant of the fact that there is no consensus among philosophers of science about a demarcation criterion that could reliably distinguish science from non-science. Any criterion yet suggested, including Karl Popper’s criterion of falsifiability, either excludes too much (e.g., scientific fields like string theory or evolutionary biology) or includes too much (e.g., homeopathy or parapsychology).

Of course, intelligent design has explanatory power. Otherwise, we could not even explain the existence of Romeo and Juliet by the intelligent agency of William Shakespeare. There is no doubt that the designing activity of an intelligent agent is a perfectly valid explanation for complex specified patterns. The only question under debate is whether such patterns are confined to the realm of human cultural artifacts or if they are also found in nature. But this question should not be decided by dogmatic a priorirestrictions of certain worldviews that do not allow for design explanations whatever the evidence might be, but should rather follow the evidence wherever it leads. It is an empirical question to be decided by the data.

It is simply false that intelligent design does not predict anything. Indeed, this is yet another common stereotype that has been refuted so many times by ID proponents that any further use of this argument can be based only on a total ignorance of the facts (or perhaps deliberate lying, but I prefer not to apply that interpretation). Stephen Meyer (2009) included in his book Signature in the Cell a whole chapter with a dozen predictions inspired by intelligent design theory. These are often very precise and easily falsifiable, for example: “No undirected process will demonstrate the capacity to generate 500 bits of new [specified] information starting from a nonbiological source.” Just write a computer simulation that achieves this, without smuggling the information in through a backdoor, and you can claim victory over a core prediction of intelligent design.

Evolution News

Dr. Bechly addresses numerous additional misfires attempted by Professor Dave. With such a voluble spray of baseless accusations coming from someone like Professor Dave, it can be helpful to be reminded of the proverb, “Like a sparrow in its flitting, like a swallow in its flying, a curse that is causeless does not alight.” (Proverbs 26:2)

Comments
Fred Hickson: '
Yes, in essence, earlier than ten years ago, I was skeptical of the RNA world idea and now I am not.
There isn't any evidence for it so your change must be due to desperation.ET
July 2, 2022
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Fred Hickson:
Yes, it is an essential non-random element that drives cumulative adaptive change.
Clueless. The non-random part of natural selection is that not all variations have the same chance of being eliminated- Mayr. And the paper "Waiting for TWO Mutations" proves that cumulative selection is total fantasy.
DNA is not in any sense analogous to human language.
That is what SA said, Fred.
Evolution happens now and has happened in the past.
The debate is whether evolution proceeds via blind and mindless or telic processes.
How first life got from that start to the last universal common ancestor is what is in question.
How life originated dictates how it subsequently evolved. That you are too stupid to grasp that fact says it all, really. There isn't any naturalistic mechanism capable of producing the diversity of life starting with populations of prokaryotes. Evolution is supposed to be all about the mechanism and yet evos are still searching!ET
July 2, 2022
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Fred Hickson:
I still see no reason to give up on an evolutionary explanation for the genetic code and aaRSs.
Of course you don't! You don't care about evidence and science! And you are still an equivocating coward. Clearly there is something wrong with you. Good luck with that.ET
July 2, 2022
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. #749 I think that’s a good idea. Allow me to suggest a question, properly worded: Aminoacyl tRNA synthetase (aaRS) play a fundamental role in establishing the genetic code. They are sizable proteins that are specified from genetic memory via mRNA. It stands to reason that they did not always exist on earth, which implies that there was once (at some point in the distant past) the very first time that an aaRS was successfully synthesized from that genetic memory and then went on to serve its role in establishing the genetic code. Regardless of what any person might propose to have occurred prior to that event, at that particular point in time, how many of the other aaRS would need to be in place?Upright BiPed
July 2, 2022
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Just a quickie to UB. Do you think it unreasonable of me to ask for a clear statement of your hypothesis/argument or a link to it if it already exists on the internet?Fred Hickson
July 2, 2022
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There was a thread here referencing an interview with Jack Szostak and UB pointed out that Professor Szostak did not mention aaRSs. I think I may just try emailing him on that issue. In fact, I'll draft something and post it here before sending, so that will avoid accusations of me asking leading questions. Too late even for insomniacs so might be tomorrow.Fred Hickson
July 2, 2022
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SA
FH These are some of the points I’ve gathered from your input: — The environment is the designer
Yes, it is an essential non-random element that drives cumulative adaptive change.
— DNA is not a language, it’s not a symbol-set
DNA is not in any sense analogous to human language. You could use the word "symbol" in discussing the DNA codon system if you want.
— Evolution is not random – if God created the environment
And if not.
— Evolution is possible with functional DNA built by copy-errors and scaffolding.
Evolution happens now and has happened in the past. How life got started on Earth is unknown currently but it did happen nearly 4 billion years ago. How first life got from that start to the last universal common ancestor is what is in question. The LUCA possessed DNA and the universal genetic code was almost completely in place, aaRSs doing their job of charging amino acids to tRNA. How life got from start to LUCA is a huge and still open question and the few papers above are hints at the work in progress (some of which I am unaware of, I'm sure).Fred Hickson
July 2, 2022
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@ Upright Biped It's from the film, Beetlejuice, 1988, perhaps a bit obscure now. Yes, in essence, earlier than ten years ago, I was skeptical of the RNA world idea and now I am not. Ten years ago I observed some of the back-and-forth (I remember Complexity Cafe) thinking the conundrum of how DNA and proteins could evolve was unanswerable. Since then my view on RNA world has changed and I now find it a very plausible precursor to what we see now. I noticed fairly recently your extended conversation with JVL, where you seemed persistent in trying to convince him of something. I was impressed how you both spent some much time and effort on the (to my mind irrelevant to biology) work of Howard Pattee without getting to what I think is the central issue, RNA world. So I chipped in. I can still and do say RNA World drives a coach and horses through your "semiotic" argument. Your expertise is in psychology? I thought you were in the business of radio stations.Fred Hickson
July 2, 2022
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So, Upright Biped, it’s option 1.
The “Ancient Mariner routine”? Is that all you were after? I remember looking in the comment history and finding that you had posted the comment “Upright Biped Upright Biped Upright Biped” on June 3rd. You then did it again a day later, and then again, and again after that. Quite clearly, old sailor, you came here gunning for me. You called me out on a challenge, knowing full well that you couldn’t support your position. But supporting your position was never the point. Having the face-to-face opportunity to tell me to “give it up” is what this whole thing was about. And now you want to walk away while pointing your finger at me. If that’s what does it for you Fred, then knock yourself out. Make it the middle finger. Use both hands. The design inference has been documented in the history of science for well over half a century, it will certainly weather the insults of me. I am unimportant.
Best of luck.
Sure. To you as well.Upright BiPed
July 1, 2022
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The belabouring against the well established does not bode well for materialistic origins thought.kairosfocus
July 1, 2022
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FH These are some of the points I've gathered from your input: -- The environment is the designer -- DNA is not a language, it's not a symbol-set -- Evolution is not random - if God created the environment -- Evolution is possible with functional DNA built by copy-errors and scaffoldingSilver Asiatic
July 1, 2022
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So, Upright Biped, it's option 1. Fair enough. Best of luck.Fred Hickson
July 1, 2022
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UB
Continuously referring to the documented historical confirmation (that the gene is a symbol system) as *my* theory and *my* hypothesis was a dead giveaway.
That FH has to deny that the gene is a symbol system - a communication network or coded-language process - is significant.Silver Asiatic
July 1, 2022
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I am under the impression you have a hypothesis
This has always been your tell, Fred. You’re like the well-dressed man strutting confidently back to his chair with four or five feet of toilet paper stuck to the soul of his shoe. Continuously referring to the documented historical confirmation (that the gene is a symbol system) as *my* theory and *my* hypothesis was a dead giveaway. It’s been a big neon sign over your head from the moment you got here. So … this has all been under your skin for the last decade, eh? And now you’ve come here to tell me to just “let it go”. Imagine being so filled with anxiety about the symbolic nature of the gene system that you are willing to go out in public and be pummeled by documented science and history as long as you get to insult someone. I can have pity on your position, but I wonder about your strategy. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - SA, the genetic symbol system doesn’t “shatter evolution”, it is much worse than that. It’s what makes evolution physically possible to begin with.Upright BiPed
July 1, 2022
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FH
SA, your comment at 738, as I am reading it, is somewhat incoherent and bears little relation to events. If you want, I can reply in more detail when I have time, though the sentiments won’t change.
That's ok - no need to reply. I appreciate your comment.Silver Asiatic
July 1, 2022
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SA, your comment at 738, as I am reading it, is somewhat incoherent and bears little relation to events. If you want, I can reply in more detail when I have time, though the sentiments won't change.Fred Hickson
July 1, 2022
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FH
I still see no reason to give up on an evolutionary explanation for the genetic code and aaRSs.
You've said previously that Upright Biped's semiotic concept was unanswerable - up until now that you have your RNA world proposal. You said something like you were willing to conceded that UB was correct, etc. but now you have something that shows that an evolutionary path actually is possible. But as Alan Fox or under any other pseuonym you used on this blog or elsewhere, I don't think you went around proclaiming that UB's hypothesis was correct (before you had your RNA defeater of him). Instead, you just kept hammering away as if UB was incorrect - while secretly thinking he was actually right. So, even though you knew UB was correct and semiotics had shattered evolution, you didn't give up on evolutionary speculations. Now you think you have something that saves evolution, but you have to start with a pre-existing, unexplained self-replicating molecule and then you just make the assumption that copy errors can create all the sequences needed for protein coding.Silver Asiatic
July 1, 2022
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I am not chasing you around Fred.
Strange remark. I am under the impression you have a hypothesis sometimes referred to as your semiotic hypothesis. I've asked a few times if there is a definitive version that we can discuss. In the absence of any response to that, it is hard to see any way forward. Besides, what is the point of two pseudonymous commenters deep in an abandoned corner of this blog repeating what has already been said. I still see no reason to give up on an evolutionary explanation for the genetic code and aaRSs. I guess you have three choices: 1. Continue with the Ancient Mariner routine here with whomever gets accosted by you. 2. Write it up in a publishable form and submit it to a journal. What about Bio-complexity? Doug Axe could give you advice, I'm sure. Or Mike Behe? Both biochemists so in their wheelhouse. 3. Let it go.
You killed your own argument
Not really. I just think you are wasting your time bringing up the same gotchas on unsuspecting ID proponents posting here. If you really had something to shatter the evolutionary paradigm, why are you keeping it from the wider world?Fred Hickson
July 1, 2022
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Fred Hickson Show me where there is symbolism in metabolism.
Actually is more symbolism in metabolism than in DNA. The hypothalamus make communication between the Central Nervous System and the endocrine system. The pituitary (subordinate to the hypothalamus)- controls the synthesis of pituitary hormones via specific releasing and release-inhibiting hormones and neurotransmitters which, in turn, stimulates secretion of a specific hormone by the target endocrine glands. The endocrine system consists of ductless glands that release their hormones into the bloodstream. The classic endocrine glands in higher vertebrates are the pituitary, the thyroid, the parathyroid, the pancreas, the thymus, and the gonads. Other organs in which clusters of secretory cells produce hormones are the liver (insulin-like growth factor 1), the kidney (renin, erythropoietin, and vitamin D3), the pineal gland (melatonin), and the endocrine cells of the gut. The total number of hormones in humans exceeds 130 (Norman and Litwack, 1997). The hypothalamus itself secretes its “releasing” hormones from nerve endings of its peptidergic neurons in response to electrical/chemical signals it receives from aminergic or cholinergic neurons in various brain centers (Norman and Litwack, 1997, p. 99), often through the limbic system. The median eminence (ME) alone secretes more than 40 neuropeptides and other chemical messengers. The hypothalamus monitors and regulates the body temperature, sodium chloride, glucose levels, and chemistry of body fluids in general. It controls most of the involuntary activities in the animal body, including innate behaviors. Through the pituitary gland, it determines the whole hormonal activity of the target endocrine glands, which is crucial for performing reproductive, developmental, behavioral, and other physiological functions. Besides the hormonal control, the hypothalamus exerts a direct control on the pituitary, via a special anatomical structure enabling the close interaction between the nervous and endocrine systems, represented by nerve endings of hypothalamic neurosecretory neurons that project into pars nervosa of the pituitary. This enables the hypothalamus to discharge its neurohormones directly into the portal vessels of the pituitary. The hypothalamus–pituitary–target endocrine glands axes represent the core of the neuroendocrine system, which plays a crucial role in maintaining homeostasis in vertebrates. The close relationship between the nervous and endocrine systems makes possible the well-known influence of external and internal environments on the activity of the endocrine system; the hypothalamus is a coordinating center that integrates various inputs to ensure a well-organized, coherent, and appropriate set of autonomic and endocrine responses. Changes in the external environment are perceived in the brain through the animal senses, and the hypothalamus is connected to the external world through the forebrain (Kandel and Schwartz, 1985). Based on the input of information it receives from other brain regions, the hypothalamus, by releasing specific hormones, via the pituitary, adaptively modifies the activity of the target endocrine glands, and it also serves as the site where other parts of the CNS interact with the autonomic system . The hypothalamus regulates secretion of many neurohormones in response to the temporal cyclicalities of the external environment. The two more important cycles are the daily (circadian) rhythm of light and darkness and the annual cycle of sea-sonal changes in temperature, length of the day, rainfall, salinity of the water, and other variables. Light, temperature, and other parameters of the external environment are received by sense organs, and the information is transmitted to the hypothalamus over neural pathways. Hypothalamic neurosecretions regulate the production of hormones of the anterior lobe of the pituitary, which promote reproductive activities such as gametogenesis and different forms of behavior (migration, territory defense, mating behavior, nest building, and care of eggs and young). The hypothalamus–pituitary–adrenal (HPA) axis is a major player in the vertebrate response to stress=all adaptations to environment.Lieutenant Commander Data
June 30, 2022
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And have a glance at those papers when you get chance.
None of those cites describe the transition from dynamics to descriptions. None of them even try. If they HAD given such a description, you’d be posting it word-for-word. (Does this not seem rather obvious to you?) On the other hand … I cited one of the top 3 or 4 OoL researchers in the world today - a man who has actually built “self-replicating RNA ligase rybozyme networks” — telling you straight up that he sees no way in his experiments to build up a self-replicating system outside the dynamics of the RNA itself… and you stepped right over that and kept on selling. I am not chasing you around Fred. You killed your own argument; you never actually had one to begin with. A single question exposed that as a fact.Upright BiPed
June 30, 2022
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The crap that Fredd accepts as science proves that he is not interested in any discussion. Read the papers he links to. Nothing but speculation based on the need.ET
June 30, 2022
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. I have been absolutely clear from the very start of this charade that the transition from dynamics to descriptions is the critical step in you making your case. And you can’t do it. You can’t even do it conceptually. Not only can you not do it, but you actually resist it at all costs. I am clearly giving you every opportunity to make your case and you are running from it.Upright BiPed
June 30, 2022
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. After gleefully telling us that your RNA World doesn’t have the fundamental parts required to specify proteins from mRNA, you don’t want your RNA World to then be judged by its ability to specify and replace all those required parts.Upright BiPed
June 30, 2022
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No, I don’t.
Of course you do. You did on June 10th, by your own words (comment 727). You did on June 14th, by your own words (comment 728). Even now, when you typed the words “I don’t suggest any biochemically active suite of proteins can be constructed from polymers consisting of a single amino acid” — you knew what the question was. When you typed the words “I do suggest that twenty aaRSs did not need to exist prior to proteins being incorporated into RNA World organisms”, — you obviously knew what the question was. And when you typed the words “I concede that wasn’t your question” you clearly knew that you weren’t answering the question. “I don’t understand the question” is a dead excuse.Upright BiPed
June 30, 2022
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And have a glance at those papers when you get chance.Fred Hickson
June 29, 2022
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You clearly know what the question is.
No, I don't. I'm also beginning to wonder if you can answer your own question. Why not just go ahead and give your answer which might clarify what you consider to be a constraint and then I could agree or disagree and explain why.Fred Hickson
June 29, 2022
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. From even further upthread … June 10th
UB: The establishment of the codon-to-anticodon relationship is spatially and temporally independent of the anticodon-to-amino acid relationship. This is what gives the system the degrees of freedom it requires in order to function as it does, where it is able to specify a particular protein, as well as any variation of that protein. In short, the systematic capacity of mRNA to carry the specification of an amino acid does not stem from the structure of the RNA, but from the structure of a separate molecule — a non-holonomic constraint, aaRS. Fred: I have no issue with this, even the “non-holonomic” which is strictly true as we are discussing (admittedly big) molecules, not robots.
Can we finally get past the dull “i don’t understand” detritus. You clearly know what the question is.Upright BiPed
June 29, 2022
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. Today…
UB: So what is your answer? Fred: I still don’t know what you mean by a constraint
15 Days ago …. (specifically explaining “constraint” to S,A,)
UB: These 20 complex proteins are the aaRS (aminoacyl tRNA synthetase) — the constraints in the gene system. By performing their double recognition, they are the molecules in biology that establish the genetic code — they establish (constrain) the relationships between the (codon) symbols and their (amino acid) referents. 2 hours later … Fred: One! The answer to your question, Upright Biped, (now you have clarified) is one.
The word “constraint” isn’t the issue, it is understood. So what is your answer? Will you be forced to dodge the question again?Upright BiPed
June 29, 2022
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Now, can I repeat my question to Upright Biped, Do you have a preferred version of your semiotic hypothesis that you can paste or link to?Fred Hickson
June 29, 2022
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Here's another paper looking for evolutionary clues in comparing aaRSs which cover in much more detail points I have tried to raise. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7345086/Fred Hickson
June 29, 2022
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