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At Evolution News: Mammoth Support for Devolution

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Michael Behe writes:

The more science progresses, the more hapless Darwin seems.

In my 2019 book Darwin Devolves I showed that random mutation and natural selection are powerful de-volutionary forces. That is, they quickly lead to the loss of genetic information. The reason is that, in many environmental circumstances, a species’ lot can be improved most quickly by breaking or blunting pre-existing genes. To get the point across, I used an analogy to a quick way to improve a car’s gas mileage — remove the hood, throw out the doors, get rid of any excess weight. That will help the car go further, but it also reduces the number of features of the car. And it sure doesn’t explain how any of those now-jettisoned parts got there in the first place.

Image credit: Thomas Quine, CC BY 2.0 , via Wikimedia Commons.

The Bottom Line

The same goes for biology. Helpful mutations that arrive most quickly are very much more likely to degrade genetic features than to construct new ones. The featured illustration in Darwin Devolves was the polar bear, which has accumulated a number of beneficial mutations since it branched off from the brown bear a few hundred thousand years ago. Yet the large majority of those beneficial mutations were degradative — they broke or damaged pre-existing genes. For example, a gene involved in fur pigmentation was damaged, rendering the beast white — that helped; another gene involved in fat metabolism was degraded, allowing the animal to consume lots of seal blubber, its main food in the Arctic — that helped, too. Those mutations were good for the species in the moment — they did improve its chances of survival. But degradative mutations don’t explain how the functioning genes got there in the first place. Even worse, the relentless burning of genetic information to adapt to a changing environment will make a species evolutionarily brittle and more prone to extinction. The bottom line: Although random mutation and natural selection help a species adapt, Darwinian processes can’t account for the origins of sophisticated biological systems.

In Darwin Devolves, I also mentioned work on DNA extracted from frozen woolly mammoth carcasses that showcased devolution: “26 genes were shown to be seriously degraded, many of which (as with polar bear) were involved in fat metabolism, critical in the extremely cold environments that the mammoth roamed.” It turns out that was an underestimate. A new paper1 that has sequenced DNA from several more woolly mammoth remains says the true number is more than triple that — 87 genes broken compared to their elephant relatives. 

There’s Lots More

The point is that these gene losses aren’t side shows — they are the events that transformed an elephant into a mammoth, that adapted the animal to its changing environment. A job well done, yes, but now those genes are gone forever, unavailable to help with the next change of environment. Perhaps that contributed to eventual mammoth extinction.

As quoted above, the mammoth authors note that gene losses can be adaptive, and they cited a paper that I hadn’t seen before. I checked it out and it’s a wonderful laboratory evolution study of yeast.2 Helsen et al. (2020) used a collection of yeast strains in which one of each different gene in the genome had been knocked out. They grew the knockout yeast in a stressful environment and watched to see how the microbes evolved to handle it. Many of the yeast strains, with different genes initially knocked out, recovered, and some even surpassed the fitness of wild-type yeast under the circumstances. The authors emphasized the fact of the evolutionary recovery. However, they also clearly stated (but don’t seem to have noticed the importance of the fact) that all of the strains rebounded by breaking other genes, ones that had been intact at the beginning of the experiment. None built anything new, all of them devolved.

Well, Duh

That’s hardly a surprise. At least in retrospect, it’s easy to see that devolution must happen — for the simple reason that helpful degradative mutations are more plentiful than helpful constructive ones and thus arrive more quickly for natural selection to multiply. The more recent results recounted here just pile more evidence onto that gathered in Darwin Devolves showing Darwin’s mechanism is powerfully devolutionary. That simple realization neatly explains results ranging from the evolutionary behavior of yeast in a comfy modern laboratory, to the speciation of megafauna in raw nature millions of years ago, and almost certainly to everything in between.

References

  1. Van der Valk, Tom, et al. 2022. Evolutionary consequences of genomic deletions and insertions in the woolly mammoth genome. iScience 25, 104826.
  2. Helsen, J. et al. 2020. Gene loss predictably drives evolutionary adaptation. Molecular Biology and Evolution 37, 2989–3002.

Behe’s conclusions have significant implications: evolutionary adaptation seems to progress by breaking existing genes in such a way as to confer a survival advantage in a niche environment; the result is a more “brittle” species with fewer options for surviving further environmental stresses; the mystery of the origin of the original genes is in no way explained by natural means at any step in the process. Rather than Darwinian evolution providing a mechanism for the “origin of the species,” it more adequately explains the demise of species.

Comments
Paxx at 492, You're looking to us to tell you what God would do? And if you believe that a just God would not send an insane person to Hell, why do you need us to confirm that? If a person is incapable of telling right from wrong then yes, I would be inclined to agree that God would take that into account, but when speaking of other people, we don't know the whole story.relatd
September 3, 2022
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Paxx, do you believe Jesus existed?zweston
September 3, 2022
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relatd, Those verses are unrelated to the topic at hand: where people rebel against God and his offering of eternal bliss, knowing the full consequences that eternal torture awaits. The insanity of rebellion. We're not discussing sinful acts that everyone is prone to do.Paxx
September 3, 2022
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Of course, this theology has its roots in apocalypticism where there is a rebel angel figure (Azazel, Satan, etc), who knew the Creator face to face, is fully aware of all his eternal powers and eternal torture if he rebels, and yet rebelled anyway. I don't what you call it, but I call it insanity. (But I rather think it is simply a myth created during the Babylonian captivity.)Paxx
September 3, 2022
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Paxx at 488, Only God knows Seversky's state of mind. I think it's hard to accept some parts of Scripture. God is presented as all loving and it follows that He should somehow understand us better. But a loving father does not tell his children to go into the woods alone, knowing there are poisonous snakes there. He warns them. God gives us many warnings. Things were not "a lot simpler" in Paul's day. Take away our cars and computers and we are back in Paul's day. We go through the exact same temptations. James 1:14 "But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire." 1 Corinthians 10:13 "No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it."relatd
September 3, 2022
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Well Paxx, the studies I listed are what they are and strongly indicate that atheist's are, in fact, 'suppressing the truth'. Thus the studies offer strong support for Paul's statement. i.e. "people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness",, Moreover, you yourself have been around long enough to know that empirical evidence that contradicts the atheist's worldview is simply ignored and/or rationalized away by atheists with, as Euler pointed out centuries ago, "the weakest and most ridiculous reasoning",,,
A Defense of the (Divine) revelation against the objections of freethinkers (atheists), by Mr. (Leonhard) Euler Excerpt: "The freethinkers (atheists) have yet to produce any objections that have not long been refuted most thoroughly. But since they are not motivated by the love of truth, and since they have an entirely different point of view, we should not be surprised that the best refutations count for nothing and that the weakest and most ridiculous reasoning, which has so often been shown to be baseless, is continuously repeated. If these people maintained the slightest rigor, the slightest taste for the truth, it would be quite easy to steer them away from their errors; but their tendency towards stubbornness makes this completely impossible." http://www.math.dartmouth.edu/~euler/docs/translations/E092trans.pdf Of note: (Leonhard) Euler is held to be one of the greatest mathematicians in history and the greatest of the 18th century. A statement attributed to Pierre-Simon Laplace expresses Euler's influence on mathematics: "Read Euler, read Euler, he is the master of us all."[4][5] Carl Friedrich Gauss remarked: "The study of Euler's works will remain the best school for the different fields of mathematics, and nothing else can replace it."[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonhard_Euler
bornagain77
September 3, 2022
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BA77: ACCORDING TO THE STUDIES I listed. I didn't read them, but if they indicate that some people lie about some things, such as evidence, I have no problem accepting that. I think there are a lot of liars and deceivers in the world. But if they are suppressing the truth, knowing the consequences of their actions, they are insane, and beyond just condemnation. See the problem? In fact, it brings down the entire notion of eternal torture for the rejects. The only just punishment for the rejects (because they are insane) would be annihilation. In other words, Christian theology, as generally taught, where eternal torture is dished out to the rejects, is fundamentally flawed, because of the built-in excuse that the rejects have: they are insane since they choose eternal torture over bliss when they are aware of the consequences. A just Creator wouldn't eternally torture an insane person, would he?Paxx
September 3, 2022
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LCD: So you think that the Creator is unjust. I certainly hope not. I think Paul's assertion is wrong and contradicted by empirical evidence. I don't consider him to be an authority in the first place.Paxx
September 3, 2022
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I think Paul’s statement is wrong his statement is inconsistent with a just Creator
I don’t think “the truth” based on the evidence of nature is obvious or persuasive to everyone
:lol: So you think that the Creator is unjust.Lieutenant Commander Data
September 3, 2022
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Well Paxx, I thought you might not accept the New Testament as authoritative, and that is exactly why I referenced the studies. i.s. ACCORDING TO THE STUDIES I listed, Paul is correct in saying that atheists are 'suppressing the truth'.bornagain77
September 3, 2022
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BA77, Do you not accept what the empirical evidence itself is saying in this matter? Yes, I do. I am a theist. I'm very ID friendly. I do not consider the New Testament to be scripture. I suppose what I'm trying to get across is that I think Paul's statement is wrong. Not only that, I think his statement is inconsistent with a just Creator, given the evidence we have about humans (they are part of nature too.) I don't think "the truth" based on the evidence of nature is obvious or persuasive to everyone, even back in Paul's day, when things were a lot simpler. I don't think people are good mind-readers so it's impossible to know what's in Seversky's mind. Humans are weird. He could be an NPC as far as I know. I find is astonishing that Seversky knows what I know (assuming he does) and does not fall squarely into the ID camp. So on that score you and I are apparently in agreement. At any rate, if you're dead sure about Paul, then I suppose there's nothing left to discuss. Your views are clear and that's is all I was after.Paxx
September 3, 2022
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Paxx, again you are assuming that you can discern Seversky's true state of mind. Only God can do that and render judgement accordingly. Even you yourself, when your originally presented your argument to AnimatedDust in post 481, prefaced your argument to him with the word "if" Paxx: ""If" Seversky is incapable of seeing the light, how can he* be fairly judged for not seeing the light?" And like I stated before "If is a mighty big word that you are using there Paxx. ,,," Moreover, on top of what scripture says, I remind you that I also referenced studies to back up my claim that atheists are in fact 'suppressing the truth'. Do you not accept what the empirical evidence itself is saying in this matter? (If so, I might as well be arguing directly with Seversky since he also refuses to ever accept what the empirical evidence itself says against his atheistic worldview) To repeat, studies have now established that the design inference is ‘knee jerk’ inference that is built into everyone, especially including atheists, and that atheists have to mentally work 'suppressing' their innate “knee jerk” design inference!
Is Atheism a Delusion? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ii-bsrHB0o Design Thinking Is Hardwired in the Human Brain. How Come? – October 17, 2012 Excerpt: “Even Professional Scientists Are Compelled to See Purpose in Nature, Psychologists Find.” The article describes a test by Boston University’s psychology department, in which researchers found that “despite years of scientific training, even professional chemists, geologists, and physicists from major universities such as Harvard, MIT, and Yale cannot escape a deep-seated belief that natural phenomena exist for a purpose” ,,, Most interesting, though, are the questions begged by this research. One is whether it is even possible to purge teleology from explanation. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/design_thinking065381.html Richard Dawkins take heed: Even atheists instinctively believe in a creator says study – Mary Papenfuss – June 12, 2015 Excerpt: Three studies at Boston University found that even among atheists, the “knee jerk” reaction to natural phenomenon is the belief that they’re purposefully designed by some intelligence, according to a report on the research in Cognition entitled the “Divided Mind of a disbeliever.” The findings “suggest that there is a deeply rooted natural tendency to view nature as designed,” writes a research team led by Elisa Järnefelt of Newman University. They also provide evidence that, in the researchers’ words, “religious non-belief is cognitively effortful.” Researchers attempted to plug into the automatic or “default” human brain by showing subjects images of natural landscapes and things made by human beings, then requiring lightning-fast responses to the question on whether “any being purposefully made the thing in the picture,” notes Pacific-Standard. “Religious participants’ baseline tendency to endorse nature as purposefully created was higher” than that of atheists, the study found. But non-religious participants “increasingly defaulted to understanding natural phenomena as purposefully made” when “they did not have time to censor their thinking,” wrote the researchers. The results suggest that “the tendency to construe both living and non-living nature as intentionally made derives from automatic cognitive processes, not just practised explicit beliefs,” the report concluded. The results were similar even among subjects from Finland, where atheism is not a controversial issue as it can be in the US. “Design-based intuitions run deep,” the researchers conclude, “persisting even in those with no explicit religious commitment and, indeed, even among those with an active aversion to them.” http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/richard-dawkins-take-heed-even-atheists-instinctively-believe-creator-says-study-1505712
Perhaps the two most famous quotes of atheists purposely suppressing their innate ‘design inference’ are the two following quotes:
“Yet the living results of natural selection overwhelmingly impress us with the appearance of design as if by a master watchmaker, impress us with the illusion of design and planning.” Richard Dawkins – “The Blind Watchmaker” – 1986 – page 21 “Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved. It might be thought, therefore, that evolutionary arguments would play a large part in guiding biological research, but this is far from the case” – Francis Crick – What Mad Pursuit – 1988
It is easy to see why Francis Crick in particular, co-discoverer of the DNA helix, would be constantly haunted by his 'knee jerk' intuition that life must be Intelligently Designed. DNA itself literally screams, “I AM INTELLIGENTLY DESIGNED” from every angle that you look at it. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/movie-night-with-illustra-a-whale-of-a-story-and-18-trillion-feet-of-you/#comment-745611 As David Berlinski noted, “applying Darwinian principles to problems of this level of complexity is like putting a Band-Aid on a wound caused by an atomic weapon. It’s just not going to work.” Verse:
Psalm 139:13-14 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
bornagain77
September 3, 2022
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BA77 - Re: Seversky I agree with you that to choose to be separated from God, and thus ‘tortured forever’, is insane. But alas, that insanity of choosing to not be with God, and choosing to endure whatever result that choice of being separated from God may entail, is displayed here on UD day in and day out as atheists continually spew their hatred towards God without any real rational and/or scientific basis for doing so. Insanity means they don't have the capacity to understand what they're doing and chose correctly for their own benefit in this matter. (Why they might be insane is another matter.) But if you accept that they are, in fact, insane, how can they be condemned by God for the insane choice and be tortured forever? How just is that? Again, assuming that your/Paul's answer to question #1 is correct. I will let Seversky speak for himself, but it seems quite clear to me that he doesn't think he is "suppress[ing] the truth in unrighteousness" or that "God has made it plain to [him]." Assuming your theology is true: either the truth is not clear to him contra Paul, which means he is justified for not embracing it, or he is choosing eternal torture over eternal bliss, which demonstrates he is insane, and should be justified for being insane. Otherwise, there is a huge crack in your theology, IMO. Seversky, if you're reading, are you choosing eternal torture over eternal bliss?Paxx
September 3, 2022
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Paxx, perhaps you might take into consideration that it is not we who are final arbiters of Seversky's mental state? I am not God, so I do not have 100% assurance that Seversky is not completely insane. I can only surmise from my interactions with him that he is not completely insane. Plus, in my post I did not rely totally on scripture but I referenced studies that indicate that my hunch that atheists are not completely insane, but are, in fact, 'suppressing the truth' is a correct hunch. I agree with you that to choose to be separated from God, and thus 'tortured forever', is insane. But alas, that insanity of choosing to not be with God, and choosing to endure whatever result that choice of being separated from God may entail, is displayed here on UD day in and day out as atheists continually spew their hatred towards God without any real rational and/or scientific basis for doing so. Instead of asking me, perhaps you should instead ask the atheists here on UD why they choose such insanity? I certainly have no clue why they would willfully choose as such. Of related note:
When Atheists Are Angry at God - 2011 Excerpt: I’ve never been angry at unicorns. It’s unlikely you’ve ever been angry at unicorns either.,, The one social group that takes exception to this rule is atheists. They claim to believe that God does not exist and yet, according to empirical studies, tend to be the people most angry at him. A new set of studies in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology finds that atheists and agnostics report anger toward God either in the past or anger focused on a hypothetical image of what they imagine God must be like. Julie Exline, a psychologist at Case Western Reserve University and the lead author of this recent study, has examined other data on this subject with identical results. Exline explains that her interest was first piqued when an early study of anger toward God revealed a counterintuitive finding: Those who reported no belief in God reported more grudges toward him than believers. http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2011/01/when-atheists-are-angry-at-god
bornagain77
September 3, 2022
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BA77: The Bible claims that atheists can ‘see the light’ and, for whatever severely misguided reason, they suppress it. So, your theology is that the answer to question #1 is that blindness is impossible. Are there no exceptions? Can people with a 60 IQ see the truth? How about people in a coma? Seems like Paul makes a generalization, but surely there are all kind of exceptions. Question: if there are exceptions, do they get a free pass? You didn't answer question #2 except to say, "for whatever severely misguided reason." I submit that, assuming you're right about question #1, that the only "misguided reason" is that they are insane. What other reason could there be? Otherwise, you're asking me to accept the idea that people choose to be tortured forever. I hope you can at least perceive the problem here.Paxx
September 3, 2022
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Paxx, you state, If Seversky is incapable of seeing the light, how can he* be fairly judged for not seeing the light? If is a mighty big word you are using there Paxx. ,,, The Bible claims that atheists can 'see the light' and, for whatever severely misguided reason, they suppress it.
Romans 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
Moreover, we don't have to rely solely on scripture to tell us that people are suppressing the truth. We now have scientific evidence that this 'suppression of the truth' by atheists is indeed the case. Specifically, studies have now established that the design inference is ‘knee jerk’ inference that is built into everyone, especially including atheists, and that atheists have to mentally work suppressing their innate “knee jerk” design inference!
Is Atheism a Delusion? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ii-bsrHB0o Design Thinking Is Hardwired in the Human Brain. How Come? - October 17, 2012 Excerpt: "Even Professional Scientists Are Compelled to See Purpose in Nature, Psychologists Find." The article describes a test by Boston University's psychology department, in which researchers found that "despite years of scientific training, even professional chemists, geologists, and physicists from major universities such as Harvard, MIT, and Yale cannot escape a deep-seated belief that natural phenomena exist for a purpose" ,,, Most interesting, though, are the questions begged by this research. One is whether it is even possible to purge teleology from explanation. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/design_thinking065381.html Richard Dawkins take heed: Even atheists instinctively believe in a creator says study - Mary Papenfuss - June 12, 2015 Excerpt: Three studies at Boston University found that even among atheists, the "knee jerk" reaction to natural phenomenon is the belief that they're purposefully designed by some intelligence, according to a report on the research in Cognition entitled the "Divided Mind of a disbeliever." The findings "suggest that there is a deeply rooted natural tendency to view nature as designed," writes a research team led by Elisa Järnefelt of Newman University. They also provide evidence that, in the researchers' words, "religious non-belief is cognitively effortful." Researchers attempted to plug into the automatic or "default" human brain by showing subjects images of natural landscapes and things made by human beings, then requiring lightning-fast responses to the question on whether "any being purposefully made the thing in the picture," notes Pacific-Standard. "Religious participants' baseline tendency to endorse nature as purposefully created was higher" than that of atheists, the study found. But non-religious participants "increasingly defaulted to understanding natural phenomena as purposefully made" when "they did not have time to censor their thinking," wrote the researchers. The results suggest that "the tendency to construe both living and non-living nature as intentionally made derives from automatic cognitive processes, not just practised explicit beliefs," the report concluded. The results were similar even among subjects from Finland, where atheism is not a controversial issue as it can be in the US. "Design-based intuitions run deep," the researchers conclude, "persisting even in those with no explicit religious commitment and, indeed, even among those with an active aversion to them." http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/richard-dawkins-take-heed-even-atheists-instinctively-believe-creator-says-study-1505712
Perhaps the two most famous quotes of atheists suppressing their innate ‘design inference’ are the two following quotes:
“Yet the living results of natural selection overwhelmingly impress us with the appearance of design as if by a master watchmaker, impress us with the illusion of design and planning.” Richard Dawkins – “The Blind Watchmaker” – 1986 – page 21 “Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved. It might be thought, therefore, that evolutionary arguments would play a large part in guiding biological research, but this is far from the case” - Francis Crick – What Mad Pursuit - 1988
It is easy to see why Francis Crick in particular, co-discoverer of the DNA helix, would be constantly haunted by his intuition that life must be Intelligently Designed. DNA itself literally screams, “I AM INTELLIGENTLY DESIGNED” from every angle that you look at it. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/movie-night-with-illustra-a-whale-of-a-story-and-18-trillion-feet-of-you/#comment-745611 As David Berlinski noted, “applying Darwinian principles to problems of this level of complexity is like putting a Band-Aid on a wound caused by an atomic weapon. It’s just not going to work.” Verse:
Psalm 139:13-14 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
bornagain77
September 3, 2022
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WJM: I think that’s unfair [to JVL]. You're right. My apologies to JVL.Paxx
September 2, 2022
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AnimatedDust: Then Christ will play back exchanges like these and the thousands of other times you tried to get him to see the light. Assuming your theology is correct: If Seversky is incapable of seeing the light, how can he* be fairly judged for not seeing the light? You could assert that he does see the light and all that it entails if rejected (eternal torture) but for some reason chooses to reject it. But that would make him insane since only an insane person would choose eternal torture. How could he be fairly judged if he is insane? * I don't know Seversky's gender.Paxx
September 2, 2022
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BA77, your responses to Sev, as pointed out above, are simply magnificent. What a ton of work that must have been. When Seversky kneels before Christ, (EVERY knee shall bow...not just the faithful) he will likely claim that he didn't have enough evidence. Then Christ will play back exchanges like these and the thousands of other times you tried to get him to see the light. He will understand then, the depth of his willful blindness and folly.AnimatedDust
September 2, 2022
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Ba77 at 474 to 476, I say this without attempting to condemn anyone, including Seversky: that was an appropriate, logical response. After this, Atheists, or Seversky, at least, should see that all of their objections are weak and faulty, and inconsistent. I admire your patience and scholarship. That said, based on previous posts, none of it will matter except to those sincerely looking for the truth. And looking at Darwin's idea and the fruit of it. Margarent Sanger, Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin. Millions dead. Millions dead. Cleansing the pure race from the üntermensch or lesser men. I watched a captured newsreel that showed one of these lesser men sitting in a chair, while a few German scientists used calipers to measure the size of his head. But there should be no outrage over this. After all, only the most fit survive. As in the animal world, a certain amount of killing other animals occurs. But that is not reality. That is not how civilization survives. Men who are far above the animals make laws, establish courts and hand out just punishments. During the Second World War, Polish General Anders was captured by Russian forces. As he was being taken to Lubyanka Prison by two Russian guards, his Blessed Virgin Mary pin fell to the ground. One of them said, "Do you think that *itch is going to help you in here?" Lubyanka Prison was not a jail but a luxury hotel where it was said the carpet pile was so thick that you could not hear men wearing boots walking on it. Of course, he was heavily guarded. I posted that example to show it was not just Hitler, but men like Stalin who killed millions. The Soviet Union collapsed in the early 1990s. And the dreaded result was a return to religion, the reopening of Churches, some of which were being used to store ammunition. Again, I commend you. But, as in the past, The mantra for evolution will continue to be chanted. The idea that all life appeared by accident will be chanted. Darwinism is a cult with a group of believers, and little else. • 'The Church “proclaims that by the light of reason the human intellect can readily and clearly discern purpose and design in the natural world, including the world of living things.” • “Any system of thought that denies or seeks to explain away the overwhelming evidence for design in biology is ideology, not science.” • Quoting our late Holy Father John Paul II: “The evolution of living beings, of which science seeks to determine the stages and to discern the mechanism, presents an internal finality which arouses admiration. This finality, which directs beings in a direction for which they are not responsible or in charge, obliges one to suppose a Mind which is its inventor, its creator.” • Again quoting John Paul II: “To all these indications of the existence of God the Creator, some oppose the power of chance or of the proper mechanisms of matter. To speak of chance for a universe which presents such a complex organization in its elements and such marvelous finality in its life would be equivalent to giving up the search for an explanation of the world as it appears to us. In fact, this would be equivalent to admitting effects without a cause. It would be to abdicate human intelligence, which would thus refuse to think and to seek a solution for its problems.” ' "Christoph Cardinal Schönborn is archbishop of Vienna and general editor of the Catechism of the Catholic Church."relatd
September 2, 2022
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Bornagain77, Nicely expressed. And believing in a "blind, pitiless, indifferent" nature gives permission for some people to be blind, pitiless, and indifferent themselves. This results in Homo sapiens becoming the most dangerous and deadly predator on the face of the earth. Seversky might think he has an airtight case against God, which might be why he continually brings up God in his posts. My questions to him are as follows: "If the Creator doesn't exist, why are you spending so much time ranting against Him?" "If the Creator does exist after all, what makes you think you'll win any argument with Him?" -QQuerius
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A fitting song
Crowder - Good God Almighty - music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TzECToPYIk
bornagain77
September 2, 2022
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Seversky continues:
BA77: “Blind, pitiless, indifference’ is not just some stupid slogan that Dawkins dreamt up for atheism, it is literally a defining feature of atheism. i.e. In your atheistic materialism you simply have no moral basis in which to differentiate evil from good. Sev: Dawkins was referring to the appearance of “blind, pitiless, indifference” of this Universe. It has nothing to do with atheism. In fact, if there is no God then we only have ourselves to cling to so it would make sense to treat each other as we would like to be treated, doesn’t it? We still have The Golden Rule even if we don’t have God.
As you yourself have honestly admitted Sev, you simply can't get the 'ought' of the golden rule from the "is" of Atheistic materialism. The transcendent standard of the golden rule simply doesn't exist in the Atheistic Materialism of Darwinian evolution. Hence, as Jordan Peterson observed,
"What the hell is irrational about me getting exactly what I want from every one of you whenever I want it at every possible second? Why is that irrational and how possibly is that more irrational than us cooperating so we can both have a good time of it. I don’t understand that. I mean they talk as if the psychopathic tendency is irrational. There’s nothing irrational about it. It’s pure naked self-interest. How is that irrational. Why the hell not every man for himself and the devil take the hindmost? It’s a perfectly coherent philosophy and it’s actually one that you can institute in the world with a fair bit of material success if you want to do it. To me I think that that the universe that people like Dawkins and Harris inhabit is so intensely conditioned by mythological presuppositions that they take for granted the ethic that emerges out of that as if it’s just a rational given. And this of course was precisely Nietzsche’s observation as well as Dostoyevsky’s observation. I’m not arguing for the existence of God. I’m arguing that the ethic that drives our culture is predicated on the idea of God and that you can’t just take that idea away and expect the thing to remain intact midair without any foundational support.” - Jordan Peterson https://medium.com/perspectiva-institute/the-man-for-the-times-of-chaos-jordan-peterson-2df43c24672f
Seversky continues,
BA77: You only have subjective personal opinions. Subjective personal opinions which are all equally valid and all, therefore, equally meaningless. Sev: But if billions of us share the same opinions, what other basis do you need for morality? No one wants to be raped or murdered or wants to have their family or friends suffer in that way. What other basis is there for morality?
So Seversky honestly admits that most people, (save for psychopaths of course), share a common vision of objective morality and then Seversky, completely oblivious to the fact that he himself just appealed to our common vision of objective morality, asks "What other basis is there for morality?" Well Seversky, aside from God, the 'other basis' for morality certainly ain't the subjective morality of Darwinian evolution.
Romans 2:14-15 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. So they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them
Seversky continues,
BA77: In what should be needless to say Sev, if it is impossible for you, (or Dawkins), to live as if your atheism were actually true, (as if there were truly no moral accountability, i.e. no justice), then your worldview cannot possibly reflect reality as it really is but your worldview must instead be based on a delusion. Sev: I live perfectly well on the assumption that there is no good reason to believe in God.
I did not claim that you cannot live 'perfectly well' without believing in God. I claimed that you, and other atheists, cannot live "CONSISTENTLY" as if atheistic materialism were actually true and therefore, since atheists can't live their lives 'consistently' as if atheistic materialism were actually true, atheistic materialism must be based on a delusion
Darwin’s Robots: When Evolutionary Materialists Admit that Their Own Worldview Fails Nancy Pearcey - 2015 Excerpt: When I teach these concepts in the classroom, an example my students find especially poignant is Flesh and Machines by Rodney Brooks, professor emeritus at MIT. Brooks writes that a human being is nothing but a machine — a “big bag of skin full of biomolecules” interacting by the laws of physics and chemistry. In ordinary life, of course, it is difficult to actually see people that way. But, he says, “When I look at my children, I can, when I force myself, … see that they are machines.” Is that how he treats them, though? Of course not: “That is not how I treat them…. I interact with them on an entirely different level. They have my unconditional love, the furthest one might be able to get from rational analysis.” Certainly if what counts as “rational” is a materialist worldview in which humans are machines, then loving your children is irrational. It has no basis https://evolutionnews.org/2015/04/when_evolutiona/ Existential Argument against Atheism – November 1, 2013 by Jason Petersen 1. If a worldview is true then you should be able to live consistently with that worldview. 2. Atheists are unable to live consistently with their worldview. 3. If you can’t live consistently with an atheist worldview then the worldview does not reflect reality. 4. If a worldview does not reflect reality then that worldview is a delusion. 5. If atheism is a delusion then atheism cannot be true. Conclusion: Atheism is false. http://answersforhope.com/existential-argument-atheism/
In short, Seversky's response to my post at 462, lacks honesty, is extremely weak, and is full of logical contradictions. And this is not just one post that Seversky has done this. Over the past decade or so, Seversky has repeatedly, hundreds of times at least, defended his atheism with such transparently weak arguments that are full of logical contradictions. Such ineptitude in argumentation would be absolutely humorous if the consequences for Seversky were not so tragic for Seversky, and for other atheists, i.e. Separation from God and, therefore, separation from all that is good. Seversky you once said that you are a former Christian. So here is a Bible verse that contains a promise for you,
Malachi 3:7 ,, Return to me, and I will return to you,’ says the LORD Almighty”.
bornagain77
September 2, 2022
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Seversky continues,
BA77: Aside from the fact that God primarily designed people to have a loving relationship with him, God also ‘designed’ people to know and learn that sin, while it may be fun for a short while, in the end sin will always lead to death and destruction, and to therefore learn from their mistakes and repent from their sin and turn to God. If He designed us to have a loving relationship with Him then why did He design us to be capable of sins which cause Him such offense?
One question for you Sev, is it possible to have a truly loving relationship without free will? i.e. Can robots truly love? Seversky continues,
BA77: God is not punishing people for their sin so much as he is rending the just and final recompense that sin leads to,,,, sin which certain people(s) stubbornly choose to cling to, no matter how much death and destruction sin may bring into their lives, above turning to God and clinging to the righteousness of God,,, Sev: He is punishing us for behaving in ways that He made us capable of behaving. How is that just?
Hmm, so God warns us not to sin, and even gives us help, if we call on Him, to free us from sin if we get caught up in it, and yet you want to condemn God for people freely choosing to sin against His good and perfect will for us? REALLY?? To echo you, "How is that just?" Indeed, "How is that even sane?". You apparently think that people ought to be robots with no free will, and/or moral accountability, whatsoever. As I pointed out in my post at 462, nobody, not even atheists, live their lives as if people were mindless automatons with no free will and/or moral accountability. Even Dawkins himself, (your hero Sev), admitted that it would be ‘intolerable’ for him to live his life as if there were truly no moral accountability, (i.e. no justice)
Who wrote Richard Dawkins’s new book? – October 28, 2006 Excerpt: Dawkins: What I do know is that what it feels like to me, and I think to all of us, we don’t feel determined. We feel like blaming people for what they do or giving people the credit for what they do. We feel like admiring people for what they do.,,, Manzari: But do you personally see that as an inconsistency in your views? Dawkins: I sort of do. Yes. But it is an inconsistency that we sort of have to live with otherwise life would be intolerable. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/10/who_wrote_richard_dawkinss_new002783.html
Seversky continues,
BA77: The is/ought gap only accentuates the fact that you, in your atheistic materialism, have no objective moral basis and does nothing whatsoever to alleviate the fact that you yourself, in your argument from evil, are necessarily presupposing the existence of objective morality, and are therefore necessarily presupposing the existence of God. Sev: There is no such thing as an objective basis for morality, just subjective, even for God, nor is there any need for one.
Well actually, directly contrary to your completely unsupported claim, there is a discernible, i.e. objective, basis for morality in life
August 2022 - Thus in conclusion, multicellular life would not even possible if the cellular level of life was not, in large measure, Intelligently Designed along, and/or based upon, the highest, altruistic, moral principles found within Christian Theism of self sacrifice. i.e. altruism. Simply put, if certain cells did not die for the good of other cells during embryonic development, multicellular life, as we know it, simply would not exist. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/at-evolution-news-recognizing-providence-in-the-history-of-life-is-a-hint-about-our-own-lives/#comment-762826 Of supplemental note Darwin’s predictions – altruism – Cornelius Hunter Conclusions “Darwin’s theory of evolution led him to several expectations and predictions, regarding behavior in general, and altruism in particular. We now know those predictions to be false.,,,” https://sites.google.com/site/darwinspredictions/altruism
Of related note to your claim that morality is subjective even for God, well Sev, again, contrary to what you believe, nobody lives their life as if morality is merely subjective, i.e. merely a personal opinion.
The Heretic – Who is Thomas Nagel and why are so many of his fellow academics condemning him? – March 25, 2013 Excerpt: ,,,Fortunately, materialism is never translated into life as it’s lived. As colleagues and friends, husbands and mothers, wives and fathers, sons and daughters, materialists never put their money where their mouth is. Nobody thinks his daughter is just molecules in motion and nothing but; nobody thinks the Holocaust was evil, but only in a relative, provisional sense. A materialist who lived his life according to his professed convictions—understanding himself to have no moral agency at all, seeing his friends and enemies and family as genetically determined robots—wouldn’t just be a materialist: He’d be a psychopath. https://www.sott.net/article/260160-The-Heretic-Who-is-Thomas-Nagel-and-why-are-so-many-of-his-fellow-academics-condemning-him
Sev continues,
BA77: As ex-atheist CS Lewis noted, “A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line.” Sev: You can rely on Lewis to state the obvious.
And, apparently, you can also rely on Seversky to blatantly ignore the obvious. Seversky continues,
BA77: Sev, In your atheistic worldview of “no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference”, you simply have no basis in which to judge whether anything may be good or evil. Sev: Of course, I do. You’re the one who doesn’t know right from wrong unless your God tells you what it is.
And yet, just a couple of sentences previously, Seversky directly stated that, "There is no such thing as an objective basis for morality, just subjective, even for God, nor is there any need for one." I guess directly contradicting yourself in such a short space of a few sentences is completely OK for atheists just so long as it is Christianity that they are arguing against. But others who hold to the 'primitive' belief that a person's arguments have to at least be logically coherent may disagree whole-heartedly with Seversky.
Is God Real? Evidence from the Laws of Logic - J. Warner Wallace Excerpt: All rational discussions (even those about the existence or non-existence of God) require the prior foundation of logical absolutes. You’d have a hard time making sense of any conversation if the Laws of Logic weren’t available to guide the discussion and provide rational boundaries.,,, Here are three of the most important Laws of Logic you and I use every day: The Law of Identity,,, The Law of Non-Contradiction,,, The Law of Excluded Middle,,, https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/is-god-real-evidence-from-the-laws-of-logic/
Seversky continues,
BA77: You simply have no basis in which to make the judgment. Sev: On what basis does your God decide what is or isn’t evil?
As Dr. Craig pointed out in answering the "Euthyphro Dilemma", God wills something, not because it is good, but because He is good.
The Euthyphro Dilemma (William Lane Craig) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBvi_auKkaI
Seversky continues:
BA77: Sev: without God, and in your atheistic materialism, you simply have no basis in which to know, must less condemn, (for instance), the Nazis as being ‘unjust’ in their holocaust. Sev: Of course, I do. In fact just like most other people I can condemn it for the immense amount of death and suffering caused by the Nazis to people who had done nothing to deserve it. As far as I’m aware, your God didn’t condemn it or lift a finger to stop it so what are your objective grounds for condemning it?
Seversky, a Darwinist, forgetting that he himself just, a few sentences before, claimed that morality is subjective, holds that he can easily condemn the holocaust as being objectively evil. The sheer irony in all this, aside from the fact that good and evil simply don't objectively exist in the atheist's worldview, is that Darwinism itself lay behind the evil of the Nazi's holocaust.
From Darwin to Hitler - Prof. Richard Weikart - lecture https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_5EwYpLD6A
Moreover, Hitler was hardly the only murderous tyrant who based his worldview on Darwinian evolution. In fact all the leading Atheistic Tyrants of the communist regimes of the 20th century, who murdered tens of millions of their OWN people, based their murderous political ideologies on Darwin’s theory and the ‘ANTI-morality’ inherent therein.
Hitler, Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao – quotes – Foundational Darwinian influence in their Atheistic ideology https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/david-berlinski-the-bad-boy-philosopher-who-doubts-darwinism-is-back/#comment-749756
bornagain77
September 2, 2022
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Seversky at 470 responds to my post at 462,,
BA77: No Sev, as usual you’ve got a very warped understanding of theology. Sev: You’re only saying that because I don’t agree with your warped understanding of theology.
No, I'm saying that because Darwinists, ever since Darwin himself wrote his book "Origin of Species", have actually used, as a primary line of argumentation no less, faulty, even 'warped', liberal Theology in order to try to make their case for Darwinian evolution, instead of using any compelling empirical evidence to try to make their case.
Charles Darwin, Theologian: Major New Article on Darwin’s Use of Theology in the Origin of Species – May 2011 Excerpt: The Origin supplies abundant evidence of theology in action; as Dilley observes: I have argued that, in the first edition of the Origin, Darwin drew upon at least the following positiva theological claims in his case for descent with modification (and against special creation): ?1. Human beings are not justified in believing that God creates in ways analogous to the intellectual powers of the human mind. 2. A God who is free to create as He wishes would create new biological limbs de novo rather than from a common pattern. 3. A respectable deity would create biological structures in accord with a human conception of the ‘simplest mode’ to accomplish the functions of these structures. 4. God would only create the minimum structure required for a given part’s function. 5. God does not provide false empirical information about the origins of organisms. 6. God impressed the laws of nature on matter. 7. God directly created the first ‘primordial’ life. 8. God did not perform miracles within organic history subsequent to the creation of the first life. 9. A ‘distant’ God is not morally culpable for natural pain and suffering. 10. The God of special creation, who allegedly performed miracles in organic history, is not plausible given the presence of natural pain and suffering. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/05/charles_darwin_theologian_majo046391.html Evolution as a Theological Research Program – by Cornelius Hunter – August 2021 Introduction Excerpt: The importance of religion in Darwin’s theory is also apparent in the science he presented. As Section 5 shows, Darwin did not have sufficient scientific arguments and evidence to advance his theory. Finally, as Section 6 and Section 7 demonstrate, these roles and relationships between religion and science persisted after Darwin. This religious foundation was by no means peculiar to Darwin’s thought. It has remained foundational since Darwin in motivating and justifying the theory. What we find in Darwin continued in later evolutionary thought. Therefore, the thesis of this paper is that evolution is best understood as a theological research program. https://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/12/9/694/htm
As Dr. Cornelius Hunter mentioned in his 2021 paper, to this day faulty theological presuppositions still play an essential role in evolutionary thought.
Methodological Naturalism: A Rule That No One Needs or Obeys – Paul Nelson – September 22, 2014 Excerpt: It is a little-remarked but nonetheless deeply significant irony that evolutionary biology is the most theologically entangled science going. Open a book like Jerry Coyne’s Why Evolution is True (2009) or John Avise’s Inside the Human Genome (2010), and the theology leaps off the page. A wise creator, say Coyne, Avise, and many other evolutionary biologists, would not have made this or that structure; therefore, the structure evolved by undirected processes. Coyne and Avise, like many other evolutionary theorists going back to Darwin himself, make numerous “God-wouldn’t-have-done-it-that-way” arguments, thus predicating their arguments for the creative power of natural selection and random mutation on implicit theological assumptions about the character of God and what such an agent (if He existed) would or would not be likely to do.,,, ,,,with respect to one of the most famous texts in 20th-century biology, Theodosius Dobzhansky’s essay “Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution” (1973). Although its title is widely cited as an aphorism, the text of Dobzhansky’s essay is rarely read. It is, in fact, a theological treatise. As Dilley (2013, p. 774) observes: “Strikingly, all seven of Dobzhansky’s arguments hinge upon claims about God’s nature, actions, purposes, or duties. In fact, without God-talk, the geneticist’s arguments for evolution are logically invalid. In short, theology is essential to Dobzhansky’s arguments.”,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/09/methodological_1089971.html Damned if You Do and Damned if You Don’t – Steve Dilley- 2019-06-02 The Problem of God-talk in Biology Textbooks Abstract: We argue that a number of biology (and evolution) textbooks face a crippling dilemma. On the one hand, significant difficulties arise if textbooks include theological claims in their case for evolution. (Such claims include, for example, ‘God would never design a suboptimal panda’s thumb, but an imperfect structure is just what we’d expect on natural selection.’) On the other hand, significant difficulties arise if textbooks exclude theological claims in their case for evolution. So, whether textbooks include or exclude theological claims, they face debilitating problems. We attempt to establish this thesis by examining 32 biology (and evolution) textbooks, including the Big 12—that is, the top four in each of the key undergraduate categories (biology majors, non-majors, and evolution courses). In Section 2 of our article, we analyze three specific types of theology these texts use to justify evolutionary theory. We argue that all face significant difficulties. In Section 3, we step back from concrete cases and, instead, explore broader problems created by having theology in general in biology textbooks. We argue that the presence of theology—of whatever kind—comes at a significant cost, one that some textbook authors are likely unwilling to pay. In Section 4, we consider the alternative: Why not simply get rid of theology? Why not just ignore it? In reply, we marshal a range of arguments why avoiding God-talk raises troubles of its own. Finally, in Section 5, we bring together the collective arguments in Sections 2-4 to argue that biology textbooks face an intractable dilemma. We underscore this difficulty by examining a common approach that some textbooks use to solve this predicament. We argue that this approach turns out to be incoherent and self-serving. The poor performance of textbooks on this point highlights just how deep the difficulty is. In the end, the overall dilemma remains. https://journals.blythinstitute.org/ojs/index.php/cbi/article/view/44
The irony in Darwinists, (as a primary line of argumentation), using faulty liberal theology to try to make their case for Darwinian evolution is that Darwinists will often, adamantly, claim that theology has no place in science, and also claim that all of science is, (supposedly), based upon the presupposition of 'methodological naturalism',
The role of theology in current evolutionary reasoning - Paul A. Nelson - Biology and Philosophy, 1996, Volume 11, Number 4, Pages 493-517 Excerpt: Evolutionists have long contended that the organic world falls short of what one might expect from an omnipotent and benevolent creator. Yet many of the same scientists who argue theologically for evolution are committed to the philosophical doctrine of methodological naturalism, which maintains that theology has no place in science. Furthermore, the arguments themselves are problematical, employing concepts that cannot perform the work required of them, or resting on unsupported conjectures about suboptimality. Evolutionary theorists should reconsider both the arguments and the influence of Darwinian theological metaphysics on their understanding of evolution. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00138329
The reason why Darwinists are, (in direct contradiction to their claim that theology has no place in science), forced to use faulty theological argumentation in order to try to make their case for Darwinian evolution, (aside from the fact that they have no compelling scientific evidence to make their case), is that all of science, every nook and cranny of it, is based on Theological, even Judeo-Christian, presuppositions, and science is certainly not based on the presuppositions of methodological naturalism.
“Science in its modern form arose in the Western civilization alone, among all the cultures of the world”, because only the Christian West possessed the necessary “intellectual presuppositions”. – Ian Barbour Presupposition 1: The contingency of nature “In 1277, the Etienne Tempier, the bishop of Paris, writing with support of Pope John XXI, condemned “necessarian theology” and 219 separate theses influenced by Greek philosophy about what God could and couldn’t do.”,, “The order in nature could have been otherwise (therefore) the job of the natural philosopher, (i.e. scientist), was not to ask what God must have done but (to ask) what God actually did.” Presupposition 2: The intelligibility of nature “Modern science was inspired by the conviction that the universe is the product of a rational mind who designed it to be understood and who (also) designed the human mind to understand it.” (i.e. human exceptionalism), “God created us in his own image so that we could share in his own thoughts” – Johannes Kepler Presupposition 3: Human Fallibility “Humans are vulnerable to self-deception, flights of fancy, and jumping to conclusions.”, (i.e. original sin), Scientists must therefore employ “systematic experimental methods.” – Stephen Meyer on Intelligent Design and The Return of the God Hypothesis – Hoover Institution https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_8PPO-cAlA
To repeat, all of science, every nook and cranny of it, is based on Judeo-Christian presuppositions and is certainly not based on the presupposition of methodological naturalism. From the essential Christian presuppositions that undergird the founding of modern science itself, (namely that the universe is contingent and rational in its foundational nature and that the minds of men, being made in the ‘image of God’, can, therefore, dare understand the rationality that God has imparted onto the universe), to the intelligent design of the scientific instruments and experiments themselves, to the logical and mathematical analysis of experimental results themselves, from top to bottom, science itself is certainly not to be considered a ‘natural’ endeavor of man. Not one scientific instrument would ever exist if men did not first intelligently design that scientific instrument. Not one test tube, microscope, telescope, spectroscope, or etc.. etc.., was ever found just laying around on a beach somewhere which was ‘naturally’ constructed by nature. Not one experimental result would ever be rationally analyzed since there would be no immaterial minds to rationally analyze the immaterial logic and immaterial mathematics that lay behind the intelligently designed experiments in the first place. Again, all of science, every nook and cranny of it, is based on Judeo-Christian presuppositions and is certainly not based on the presupposition of methodological naturalism. Moreover, far from 'methodological naturalism' ever being the required presupposition for doing science, (as Atheists will often falsely claim it to be), 'methodological naturalism', if it is assumed as being true, actually drives science into catastrophic epistemological failure instead of providing a fruitful heuristic for 'doing science'
Basically, because of reductive materialism (and/or methodological naturalism), the atheistic materialist (who believes Darwinian evolution to be true) is forced to claim that he is merely a ‘neuronal illusion’ (Coyne, Dennett, etc..), who has the illusion of free will (Harris, Coyne), who has unreliable, (i.e. illusory), beliefs about reality (Plantinga), who has illusory perceptions of reality (Hoffman), who, since he has no real time empirical evidence substantiating his grandiose claims, must make up illusory “just so stories” with the illusory, and impotent, ‘designer substitute’ of natural selection (Behe, Gould, Sternberg), so as to ‘explain away’ the appearance (i.e. the illusion) of design (Crick, Dawkins), and who also must make up illusory meanings and purposes for his life since the hopelessness of the nihilism inherent in his atheistic worldview is simply too much for him to bear (Weikart), and who must also hold morality to be subjective and illusory since he has rejected God (Craig, Kreeft). Who, since beauty cannot be grounded within his materialistic worldview, must also hold beauty itself to be illusory (Darwin). Bottom line, nothing is truly real in the atheist’s worldview, least of all, beauty, morality, meaning and purposes for life.,,, - August 2022 - Defense of each claim https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/at-evolution-news-recognizing-providence-in-the-history-of-life-is-a-hint-about-our-own-lives/#comment-763046
Thus, although the Darwinian Atheist and/or Methodological Naturalist may firmly, and falsely, believe that he is on the terra firma of science (in his appeal, even demand, for naturalistic explanations over and above God as a viable explanation), the fact of the matter is that, when examining the details of his materialistic/naturalistic worldview, it is found that Darwinists/Atheists themselves are adrift in an ocean of fantasy and imagination with no discernible anchor for reality to grab on to. It would be hard to fathom a worldview more antagonistic to modern science, indeed more antagonistic to reality itself, than Atheistic materialism and/or methodological naturalism have turned out to be.
2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
bornagain77
September 2, 2022
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I've always been amused at documentaries showing how mammoths fattened themselves up in the arctic tundra in deep drifts of snow. If their diet was anything like that of elephants, they would each need about 300 kg/day. I'd imagine that they would need to be constantly on the move. Here's how the BBC describes it:
The ancestral mammoth (Mammuthus meridionalis) lived in warm tropical forests about 4.8 million years ago and probably had a similar diet to the modern Asian elephant. The woolly mammoth (Mammuthis primigenius) evolved later, as the climate cooled, and was a grazer. It probably used its tusks to shovel aside snow and then uprooted tough tundra grasses with its trunk. They needed to be so big because their stomachs were giant fermentation vats for grass – which is not nutritious.
Or maybe they used their trunks as snow blowers . . . LOL Here's another take: https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22129552-500-woolly-mammoths-died-for-want-of-a-few-herbs/ -QQuerius
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I believe the story of mammoth devolution from elephants has been covered adequately at the start of the OP and by BA77. It came up in the Michael Behe/Michael Ramage interview as an example of Devolution. Apparently 100 gene sequences were broken to allow the mammoth to survive better in cold environments. https://idthefuture.com/1641/jerry
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Seversky at 470, "I live perfectly well on the assumption that there is no good reason to believe in God." This is nothing new, nothing modern or recent. Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death." Romans 6:21 "But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death." Psalm 14:1 'The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good.'relatd
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Bornagain77/462
No Sev, as usual you’ve got a very warped understanding of theology.
You're only saying that because I don't agree with your warped understanding of theology.
Aside from the fact that God primarily designed people to have a loving relationship with him, God also ‘designed’ people to know and learn that sin, while it may be fun for a short while, in the end sin will always lead to death and destruction, and to therefore learn from their mistakes and repent from their sin and turn to God.
If He designed us to have a loving relationship with Him then why did He design us to be capable of sins which cause Him such offense?
God is not punishing people for their sin so much as he is rending the just and final recompense that sin leads to,,,, sin which certain people(s) stubbornly choose to cling to, no matter how much death and destruction sin may bring into their lives, above turning to God and clinging to the righteousness of God,,,
He is punishing us for behaving in ways that He made us capable of behaving. How is that just?
The is/ought gap only accentuates the fact that you, in your atheistic materialism, have no objective moral basis and does nothing whatsoever to alleviate the fact that you yourself, in your argument from evil, are necessarily presupposing the existence of objective morality, and are therefore necessarily presupposing the existence of God.
There is no such thing as an objective basis for morality, just subjective, even for God, nor is there any need for one.
As ex-atheist CS Lewis noted, “A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line.”
You can rely on Lewis to state the obvious.
Sev, In your atheistic worldview of “no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference”, you simply have no basis in which to judge whether anything may be good or evil.
Of course, I do. You're the one who doesn't know right from wrong unless your God tells you what it is.
You simply have no basis in which to make the judgment.
On what basis does your God decide what is or isn't evil?
Sev: without God, and in your atheistic materialism, you simply have no basis in which to know, must less condemn, (for instance), the Nazis as being ‘unjust’ in their holocaust.
Of course, I do. In fact just like most other people I can condemn it for the immense amount of death and suffering caused by the Nazis to people who had done nothing to deserve it. As far as I'm aware, your God didn't condemn it or lift a finger to stop it so what are your objective grounds for condemning it?
“Blind, pitiless, indifference’ is not just some stupid slogan that Dawkins dreamt up for atheism, it is literally a defining feature of atheism. i.e. In your atheistic materialism you simply have no moral basis in which to differentiate evil from good.
Dawkins was referring to the appearance of “blind, pitiless, indifference" of this Universe. It has nothing to do with atheism. In fact, if there is no God then we only have ourselves to cling to so it would make sense to treat each other as we would like to be treated, doesn't it? We still have The Golden Rule even if we don't have God.
You only have subjective personal opinions. Subjective personal opinions which are all equally valid and all, therefore, equally meaningless.
But if billions of us share the same opinions, what other basis do you need for morality? No one wants to be raped or murdered or wants to have their family or friends suffer in that way. What other basis is there for morality?
In what should be needless to say Sev, if it is impossible for you, (or Dawkins), to live as if your atheism were actually true, (as if there were truly no moral accountability, i.e. no justice), then your worldview cannot possibly reflect reality as it really is but your worldview must instead be based on a delusion.
I live perfectly well on the assumption that there is no good reason to believe in God.Seversky
September 1, 2022
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CD at 468, It is a big win for the religious community. The atheist idea that nothing made human beings is replaced by ID which is consistent with direct observation, and when connected to Theology, consistent with the working of God in His Creation.relatd
September 1, 2022
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