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At Evolution News: Mammoth Support for Devolution

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Michael Behe writes:

The more science progresses, the more hapless Darwin seems.

In my 2019 book Darwin Devolves I showed that random mutation and natural selection are powerful de-volutionary forces. That is, they quickly lead to the loss of genetic information. The reason is that, in many environmental circumstances, a species’ lot can be improved most quickly by breaking or blunting pre-existing genes. To get the point across, I used an analogy to a quick way to improve a car’s gas mileage — remove the hood, throw out the doors, get rid of any excess weight. That will help the car go further, but it also reduces the number of features of the car. And it sure doesn’t explain how any of those now-jettisoned parts got there in the first place.

Image credit: Thomas Quine, CC BY 2.0 , via Wikimedia Commons.

The Bottom Line

The same goes for biology. Helpful mutations that arrive most quickly are very much more likely to degrade genetic features than to construct new ones. The featured illustration in Darwin Devolves was the polar bear, which has accumulated a number of beneficial mutations since it branched off from the brown bear a few hundred thousand years ago. Yet the large majority of those beneficial mutations were degradative — they broke or damaged pre-existing genes. For example, a gene involved in fur pigmentation was damaged, rendering the beast white — that helped; another gene involved in fat metabolism was degraded, allowing the animal to consume lots of seal blubber, its main food in the Arctic — that helped, too. Those mutations were good for the species in the moment — they did improve its chances of survival. But degradative mutations don’t explain how the functioning genes got there in the first place. Even worse, the relentless burning of genetic information to adapt to a changing environment will make a species evolutionarily brittle and more prone to extinction. The bottom line: Although random mutation and natural selection help a species adapt, Darwinian processes can’t account for the origins of sophisticated biological systems.

In Darwin Devolves, I also mentioned work on DNA extracted from frozen woolly mammoth carcasses that showcased devolution: “26 genes were shown to be seriously degraded, many of which (as with polar bear) were involved in fat metabolism, critical in the extremely cold environments that the mammoth roamed.” It turns out that was an underestimate. A new paper1 that has sequenced DNA from several more woolly mammoth remains says the true number is more than triple that — 87 genes broken compared to their elephant relatives. 

There’s Lots More

The point is that these gene losses aren’t side shows — they are the events that transformed an elephant into a mammoth, that adapted the animal to its changing environment. A job well done, yes, but now those genes are gone forever, unavailable to help with the next change of environment. Perhaps that contributed to eventual mammoth extinction.

As quoted above, the mammoth authors note that gene losses can be adaptive, and they cited a paper that I hadn’t seen before. I checked it out and it’s a wonderful laboratory evolution study of yeast.2 Helsen et al. (2020) used a collection of yeast strains in which one of each different gene in the genome had been knocked out. They grew the knockout yeast in a stressful environment and watched to see how the microbes evolved to handle it. Many of the yeast strains, with different genes initially knocked out, recovered, and some even surpassed the fitness of wild-type yeast under the circumstances. The authors emphasized the fact of the evolutionary recovery. However, they also clearly stated (but don’t seem to have noticed the importance of the fact) that all of the strains rebounded by breaking other genes, ones that had been intact at the beginning of the experiment. None built anything new, all of them devolved.

Well, Duh

That’s hardly a surprise. At least in retrospect, it’s easy to see that devolution must happen — for the simple reason that helpful degradative mutations are more plentiful than helpful constructive ones and thus arrive more quickly for natural selection to multiply. The more recent results recounted here just pile more evidence onto that gathered in Darwin Devolves showing Darwin’s mechanism is powerfully devolutionary. That simple realization neatly explains results ranging from the evolutionary behavior of yeast in a comfy modern laboratory, to the speciation of megafauna in raw nature millions of years ago, and almost certainly to everything in between.

References

  1. Van der Valk, Tom, et al. 2022. Evolutionary consequences of genomic deletions and insertions in the woolly mammoth genome. iScience 25, 104826.
  2. Helsen, J. et al. 2020. Gene loss predictably drives evolutionary adaptation. Molecular Biology and Evolution 37, 2989–3002.

Behe’s conclusions have significant implications: evolutionary adaptation seems to progress by breaking existing genes in such a way as to confer a survival advantage in a niche environment; the result is a more “brittle” species with fewer options for surviving further environmental stresses; the mystery of the origin of the original genes is in no way explained by natural means at any step in the process. Rather than Darwinian evolution providing a mechanism for the “origin of the species,” it more adequately explains the demise of species.

Comments
WJM writes:
[I]f you could erase the presence of all religion and spiritual ideology from the argument, current and historically, but maintain all of the science (which I doubt you could do for other reasons,) I think the scientific community would have long ago agreed that ID is the only viable explanation for these things. It wouldn’t even be controversial. I think that one side has good reasons to wish to not give the religious community such a big win, to be so dead-set against it that they will hold on to any bare possibility of an alternative explanation even when it becomes clearly irrational.
These two paragraphs strike me as inconsistent. If you expunge religion and/or spirituality from, what I presume you refer to as the ID-Darwinism "argument," leaving only "the science," how does that translate into a "big win" for the religious community?chuckdarwin
September 1, 2022
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Seversky at 466, Back to God, eh? You know what? God knows exactly what I will do for the rest of my life. The same for everyone else. But He tells no one. As for Adam and Eve, we have to > freely < choose to follow Him and His commandments. God does not force anyone to love Him. Can you imagine forcing anyone to love you? Can you? It must be their free choice to do so.relatd
September 1, 2022
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Relatd/459
Seversky at 454, I know why pain and suffering appeared. The first man and first woman were given gifts from God called preternatural. “impassibility (freedom from pain) immortality (freedom from death) integrity (freedom from concupiscence, or disordered desires) infused knowledge (freedom from ignorance in matters essential for happiness)” After The Fall, a literal event, those gifts were taken away. However, Adam and Eve did pass on what they knew to their children.
And you think your omniscient God did not foresee exactly how Adam and Eve would behave?Seversky
September 1, 2022
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WJM at 463, Some anti-religion posters come from a long line of people who ignore the idea of any god, but may accept a belief system that aligns with their views. Some may - may - be those who've decided that religious beliefs are not for them. That said, yes, if this was strictly about science then the rational person would assume that any "debate" here would fall away. In the case of ID, there can be no positive comments here that go unchallenged by fake and/or unprovable claims or questions that are similar to: "When did God create the color blue?". And yes, ID is helping actual scientists do their work. Look at Bioinformatics. "Bioinformatics is a field of study that uses computation to extract knowledge from biological data. It includes the collection, storage, retrieval, manipulation and modelling of data for analysis, visualization or prediction through the development of algorithms and software." As it relates to ID: https://dennisdjones.wordpress.com/2011/02/21/research-confirms-id-hypothesis-in-the-field-of-informatics/ And Epigenetics: https://www.zenithepigenetics.com/Science-Epigenetics/what-is-epigenetics As it applies to ID: https://evolutionnews.org/2016/01/epigenetics_a_r/ But the "scientific community" is too heavily invested in evolution as described in Biology textbooks. From the National Academy of Science site: "Evolutionary biology has been and continues to be a cornerstone of modern science." Yet there is no need to believe evolution happened to carry out biological research in the present. For example, the assumption that non-coding, or Junk DNA was just just leftovers from our supposedly long evolutionary development. In other words, "In the distant past, early humans needed these genes but we don't anymore. These are leftovers that still get copied, but they have no function." 100% wrong. And when other discoveries are made in biology, "evolution" gets the credit but they can't prove that. That is and will continue to be my point here.relatd
September 1, 2022
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William J Murray @463,
I will add this, though; I think one of the clearest categorical cases of cognitive dissonance I’ve ever seen is that of how atheists in general will often do anything, say anything to avoid agreeing with the core assertion of ID theory. Especially atheists who would be better described as anti-Christians because they keep returning to anti-Christian tropes, the “why doesn’t God stop the suffering” complaint, as if that has anything to do with ID theory. This emotional anti-Christianism often spurts out around the edges and boils up when the debate gets heavy. It’s fairly obvious and repetitive in from some people who have engaged in the arguments at this site, and in ID debates elsewhere.
Great observations! I've also noticed that it's the Darwinists who continually introduce (and misrepresent) the Judeo-Christian God in these forum comments. As a result, I will correct the blatant misrepresentations, but generally not for the Darwinists, who are ideologically committed anti-Christians as you pointed out (or simply crude trollbots) but rather for other contributors and onlookers. -QQuerius
September 1, 2022
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Relatd @455 said:
You didn’t say much of anything in that post.
To be fair I was answering and elaborating on a fairly simple question of yours when you asked me if I really believed that people were generally being honest here and getting unfair accusations thrown their way. I will add this, though; I think one of the clearest categorical cases of cognitive dissonance I've ever seen is that of how atheists in general will often do anything, say anything to avoid agreeing with the core assertion of ID theory. Especially atheists who would be better described as anti-Christians because they keep returning to anti-Christian tropes, the "why doesn't God stop the suffering" complaint, as if that has anything to do with ID theory. This emotional anti-Christianism often spurts out around the edges and boils up when the debate gets heavy. It's fairly obvious and repetitive in from some people who have engaged in the arguments at this site, and in ID debates elsewhere. IMO ID is the only viable current candidate in terms of explaining the appearance of micro-managed fundamental forces of the physical universe, the origin of life and the appearance of new species/functioning body plans. All other attempts at explanation rely on increasingly deep wells of chance, even if that "chance" is acted upon by some non-random, ongoing set of events like "natural selection." But, I think the debate is far too emotionally charged because of the presence of the proponents of Christianity deeply embedded in this debate. I think that if you could erase the presence of all religion and spiritual ideology from the argument, current and historically, but maintain all of the science (which I doubt you could do for other reasons,) I think the scientific community would have long ago agreed that ID is the only viable explanation for these things. It wouldn't even be controversial. I think that one side has good reasons to wish to not give the religious community such a big win, to be so dead-set against it that they will hold on to any bare possibility of an alternative explanation even when it becomes clearly irrational. I think the evidence now is so clearly in favor of the ID explanation it has moved many well-respected scientists and researchers into new models of explanation like various Idealism-based and simulation theories.William J Murray
August 29, 2022
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Seversky at 453:
BA77: now wait one minute, it is ‘Dad’s fault’, after patiently warning, and waiting for a people to repent of their sins, for rendering sinners their just due? Sev: If He designed them to be capable of sin in the first place then, yes, He is to blame because, being all-powerful, He could have done otherwise. He is punishing people for behaving as He designed them to behave.
No Sev, as usual you've got a very warped understanding of theology. Aside from the fact that God primarily designed people to have a loving relationship with him, God also 'designed' people to know and learn that sin, while it may be fun for a short while, in the end sin will always lead to death and destruction, and to therefore learn from their mistakes and repent from their sin and turn to God. God is not punishing people for their sin so much as he is rending the just and final recompense that sin leads to,,,, sin which certain people(s) stubbornly choose to cling to, no matter how much death and destruction sin may bring into their lives, above turning to God and clinging to the righteousness of God,,,
Psalms 52:3 You love evil more than good, Lying rather than speaking righteousness. John 3:19 And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil.
Continued
BA77: Or Seversky, do you really want to hold on to the absurd proposition that we should live in a world without justice? After all, that is exactly the absurd proposition that your atheistic worldview entails, i.e. “no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference”,,, Sev: I remind you of the is/ought gap. The fact that the Universe may be blindly and pitilessly indifferent to us does not mean that that is how we should behave towards each other.
The is/ought gap only accentuates the fact that you, in your atheistic materialism, have no objective moral basis and does nothing whatsoever to alleviate the fact that you yourself, in your argument from evil, are necessarily presupposing the existence of objective morality, and are therefore necessarily presupposing the existence of God.
Responding to the Argument From Evil: Three Approaches for the Theist - By David Wood Excerpt: Interestingly enough, proponents of AE grant this premise in the course of their argument. By declaring that suffering is evil, atheists have admitted that there is an objective moral standard by which we distinguish good and evil. Amazingly, then, even as atheists make their case against the existence of God, they actually help us prove that God exists!,,, https://www.namb.net/apologetics/responding-to-the-argument-from-evil-three-approaches-for-the-theist Premise 1: If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist. Premise 2: Objective moral values and duties do exist. Conclusion: Therefore, God exists. The Moral Argument – drcraigvideos - video https://youtu.be/OxiAikEk2vU?t=276
As ex-atheist CS Lewis noted, "A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line."
“My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? - CS Lewis
Sev, In your atheistic worldview of “no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference”, you simply have no basis in which to judge whether anything may be good or evil. You simply have no basis in which to make the judgment. As Michael Egnor noted, "Even to raise the problem of evil is to tacitly acknowledge transcendent standards, and thus to acknowledge God’s existence. From that starting point, theodicy begins. Theists have explored it profoundly. Atheists lack the standing even to ask the question."
The Universe Reflects a Mind Michael Egnor - February 28, 2018 Excerpt: Evil is an insoluble problem for atheists, because if there is no God, there is no objective standard by which evil and good can exist or can even be defined. If God does not exist, “good” and “evil” are merely human opinions. Yet we all know, as Kant observed, that some things are evil in themselves, and not merely as a matter of opinion. Even to raise the problem of evil is to tacitly acknowledge transcendent standards, and thus to acknowledge God’s existence. From that starting point, theodicy begins. Theists have explored it profoundly. Atheists lack the standing even to ask the question. https://evolutionnews.org/2018/02/the-universe-reflects-a-mind/
Sev continues,
And nowhere did I argue that we should live in a world without justice. I’m just saying we are capable of working these things out for ourselves. We don’t need some other being to tell us how to set about it, although if God wants to come down and offer His thoughts then I’m sure we’d be happy to take His advice under consideration.
Sev: without God, and in your atheistic materialism, you simply have no basis in which to know, must less condemn, (for instance), the Nazis as being 'unjust' in their holocaust. "Blind, pitiless, indifference' is not just some stupid slogan that Dawkins dreamt up for atheism, it is literally a defining feature of atheism. i.e. In your atheistic materialism you simply have no moral basis in which to differentiate evil from good. You only have subjective personal opinions. Subjective personal opinions which are all equally valid and all, therefore, equally meaningless. Yet, in direct contrast to what your atheistic worldview holds, "nobody thinks the Holocaust was evil, but only in a relative, provisional sense",
The Heretic - Who is Thomas Nagel and why are so many of his fellow academics condemning him? - March 25, 2013 Excerpt: ,,,Fortunately, materialism is never translated into life as it’s lived. As colleagues and friends, husbands and mothers, wives and fathers, sons and daughters, materialists never put their money where their mouth is. Nobody thinks his daughter is just molecules in motion and nothing but; nobody thinks the Holocaust was evil, but only in a relative, provisional sense. A materialist who lived his life according to his professed convictions—understanding himself to have no moral agency at all, seeing his friends and enemies and family as genetically determined robots—wouldn’t just be a materialist: He’d be a psychopath. https://www.sott.net/article/260160-The-Heretic-Who-is-Thomas-Nagel-and-why-are-so-many-of-his-fellow-academics-condemning-him
Agains, nobody, including atheists, live as if atheistic materialism is actually true. Shoot even Dawkins himself, (your hero Sev), admitted that it would be 'intolerable' for him to live his life as if there were truly no moral accountability, (i.e. no justice)
Who wrote Richard Dawkins’s new book? – October 28, 2006 Excerpt: Dawkins: What I do know is that what it feels like to me, and I think to all of us, we don't feel determined. We feel like blaming people for what they do or giving people the credit for what they do. We feel like admiring people for what they do.,,, Manzari: But do you personally see that as an inconsistency in your views? Dawkins: I sort of do. Yes. But it is an inconsistency that we sort of have to live with otherwise life would be intolerable. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/10/who_wrote_richard_dawkinss_new002783.html
In what should be needless to say Sev, if it is impossible for you, (or Dawkins), to live as if your atheism were actually true, (as if there were truly no moral accountability, i.e. no justice), then your worldview cannot possibly reflect reality as it really is but your worldview must instead be based on a delusion.
Existential Argument against Atheism - November 1, 2013 by Jason Petersen 1. If a worldview is true then you should be able to live consistently with that worldview. 2. Atheists are unable to live consistently with their worldview. 3. If you can’t live consistently with an atheist worldview then the worldview does not reflect reality. 4. If a worldview does not reflect reality then that worldview is a delusion. 5. If atheism is a delusion then atheism cannot be true. Conclusion: Atheism is false. http://answersforhope.com/existential-argument-atheism/
Verse:
Matthew 12_20-21 A bruised reed He will not break, and a smoldering wick He will not extinguish, till He leads justice to victory. In His name the nations will put their hope.”…
bornagain77
August 28, 2022
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Sev, you are back to yet another try at the long since answered deductive form problem of evils. You may find this recent OP a place to begin needed rethinking, oh about 50 years behind the curve. KFkairosfocus
August 28, 2022
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AF, one may expect responsible behaviour towards observational data, facts, reasoning and duty. Even, in a blog combox, which is not an exception to such general duties of responsible, rational, significantly free creatures. And of course for many years, UD has been more of a discussion forum than a space intended for Youtube or Twitter style snarkiness and irresponsibility or outright trollish tactics. KFkairosfocus
August 28, 2022
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Seversky at 454, I know why pain and suffering appeared. The first man and first woman were given gifts from God called preternatural. "impassibility (freedom from pain) immortality (freedom from death) integrity (freedom from concupiscence, or disordered desires) infused knowledge (freedom from ignorance in matters essential for happiness)" After The Fall, a literal event, those gifts were taken away. However, Adam and Eve did pass on what they knew to their children.relatd
August 28, 2022
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Seversky at 453, You can't be an amateur and a Bible scholar at the same time. God could have made robots that obeyed His every command without question. He did not. He gave them free will. The first man and first woman were given one commandment to obey. An evil being lied to them. They sinned the Original Sin and it was passed on to all men. Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—"relatd
August 28, 2022
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Seversky at 452, Make up your mind. Either God exists or He doesn't. You talk about Him as if He's real to you. Again, which is it? If He's not real then you have nothing to say. If He is then He's worthy of worship and praise. Your problem is you think He's just a man. And by the way, you have no idea what's going on in the rest of the universe.relatd
August 28, 2022
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Seversky at 451, You really are confused. "in light of our current understanding of morals." And what "understanding" would that be? Where is this written down? Tell me.relatd
August 28, 2022
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WJM at 446, You didn't say much of anything in that post. I'm one of a number of moderators on a rather large forum. I've seen all the ways people do it wrong. The problem with internet forums in general is anonymity. We all sit in a black room and the only way to communicate is by keyboard. People say/type things they would never say to someone in real life. I've got a few decades of evidence to show that's true. In this sense, the internet is a devolution, a deficient form of communications. Since we will never meet in real life then yes, you will get trolls/liars and other troublemakers. It's like leaving the front door of your house open and all and sundry walk in and dump their trash and leave. Posters who are committed to honesty and truth try to squeeze in but some are unaware of the tricks and traps waiting for them. They get caught in an exchange and are shot down. Quite sad really.relatd
August 28, 2022
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Relatd/444
Ba77 at 443, You misunderstand. Seversky wants to sit God down and give him a stern talking-to. Sev: Look God! Pain and suffering! I want it gone right now! DO IT !!! And so on…
If your God has the power to prevent all that pain and suffering wouldn't you at least want to know why He doesn't do it?Seversky
August 28, 2022
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Bornagain77/443
Seversky, now wait one minute, it is ‘Dad’s fault’, after patiently warning, and waiting for a people to repent of their sins, for rendering sinners their just due?
If He designed them to be capable of sin in the first place then, yes, He is to blame because, being all-powerful, He could have done otherwise. He is punishing people for behaving as He designed them to behave.
Or Seversky, do you really want to hold on to the absurd proposition that we should live in a world without justice? After all, that is exactly the absurd proposition that your atheistic worldview entails, i.e. “no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference”,,,
I remind you of the is/ought gap. The fact that the Universe may be blindly and pitilessly indifferent to us does not mean that that is how we should behave towards each other. And nowhere did I argue that we should live in a world without justice. I'm just saying we are capable of working these things out for ourselves. We don't need some other being to tell us how to set about it, although if God wants to come down and offer His thoughts then I'm sure we'd be happy to take His advice under consideration.Seversky
August 28, 2022
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Relatd/441
He’s mad at God because he didn’t do it HIS way! Which, by the way, is the only way…
It would be pointless to be mad at a being I don't think exists. If anything, what irritates me is blind, unquestioning obedience to some authority which is clearly as flawed as everything else in this Universe.Seversky
August 28, 2022
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Relatd/439
Seversky at 436, Hey, loud mouth! What do you care? You think you can tell Christians what they should do? Watch it
I wasn't telling Christians to do anything. I was simply suggesting that they might want to take another look at some parts of the Bible that are arguably problematical in light of our current understanding of morals.Seversky
August 28, 2022
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Good points again at 446, William. Nobody should expect to change minds by exchanging a few comments on a blog but it is worthwhile sometimes at least finding where the disagreement lies.Alan Fox
August 28, 2022
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WJM, given a particular domination on thought about origins, I point to a description, evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow travellers. This includes those who actually nominally adhere to other frames of thought but have made common cause. The particular issuie is as Haldane points out and many others too. Just the scientism -- science monopolises or overwhelmingly dominates knowledge so it is the only effective or serious source of truth or knowledge, is already deeply problematic and self referential. But that has become a deeply embedded extreme extrapolation of the successes of science. We need to recognise and correct it. As for anti-christian bigotry etc, for decades a certain coterie of advocates have sought to smear, marginalise and lock out the design inference by promoting the assertion or innuendo that it is [biblical] creationism in a cheap tuxedo. They have consistently twisted cases and situations under that slander. Meanwhile, they have paid scant attention to Plato or to blatant evidence such as coded algorithmic information in D/RNA. Indeed some try to pretend that is not a fact. To which I answer by pointing to how proteins are made in the cell. KFkairosfocus
August 28, 2022
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Seversky, near as I can figure you are trying to deny the self referential incoherence of evolutionary materialistic scientism . . . a description not a label. I append JBS Haldane. KF PS: Haldane,
[JBSH, REFACTORED AS SKELETAL, AUGMENTED PROPOSITIONS:] "It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For
if [p:] my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain [–> taking in DNA, epigenetics and matters of computer organisation, programming and dynamic-stochastic processes; notice, "my brain," i.e. self referential] ______________________________ [ THEN] [q:] I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. [--> indeed, blindly mechanical computation is not in itself a rational process, the only rationality is the canned rationality of the programmer, where survival-filtered lucky noise is not a credible programmer, note the functionally specific, highly complex organised information rich code and algorithms in D/RNA, i.e. language and goal directed stepwise process . . . an observationally validated adequate source for such is _____ ?] [Corollary 1:] They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence [Corollary 2:] I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. [--> grand, self-referential delusion, utterly absurd self-falsifying incoherence] [Implied, Corollary 3: Reason and rationality collapse in a grand delusion, including of course general, philosophical, logical, ontological and moral knowledge; reductio ad absurdum, a FAILED, and FALSE, intellectually futile and bankrupt, ruinously absurd system of thought.]
In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. Cf. here on (and esp here) on the self-refutation by self-falsifying self referential incoherence and on linked amorality.]
PPS, rational responsible freedom is that power of self moving that allows us to be first, initiating causes not determined by a blind mechanical chain of prior events; that has been noted since Plato in The Laws Bk X. Absent such, we are not free enough to choose to follow a chain of warrant or to judge true from false. Just by arguing, you imply assent to such freedom. And no that does not mean that we cannot make foolish or even evil or destructive choices or that we cannot be enmeshed in alcoholism or other addictions. But for just this, see the twelve step type programme, which is now applied to endless areas of addictive struggle, e.g. gamblers anonymous. The rule is, it is easier not to bite at that juicy worm than to try to get off the hook once the barb has bitten home.kairosfocus
August 28, 2022
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Paxx, language. Remember the broken window theory, a spiral to the gutter helps no one. KFkairosfocus
August 28, 2022
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Relatd @437 said:
With all due respect, do you really believe that? Both sides have presented their case. Both sides can’t be right. There is no evidence that anyone forgot how to read or think. Any momentary confusion can be solved quite easily: do the research.
Yes, I really do believe in the principle of charity when it comes to discussions, and I really do believe that everyone is capable of having errors of thought and cognition. One of the tell-tale signs of cognitive dissonance is when people become emotional and start attacking the person. That usually demonstrates an emotional investment in their own perspective. I see people on both sides becoming upset, casting aspersions, calling other people trolls, ridiculing their beliefs. For what? What rational, functional purpose is served by doing that? Plus, there's a lot of mind-reading going on here, as if we know the motives and reasons for others and why they say the things they do. One side is constantly assuming the other side is inhabited entirely by atheistic materialists, the other side often reverts to some anti-Christian rant or attack. This has been going on for years here. I don't know how many times I had to remind the same people that I'm not a Christian; it was like they could never retain that information. The easy way to feel good about oneself is to just believe the other people are not being truthful, or are being willfully blind, or have been indoctrinated, or are deliberate trolls. As far as I can tell, pretty much everyone here has an a priori commitment to an emotionally-charged ideology. Everyone here has a line they will not cross when it comes to their own views, and everyone here thinks their own views are perfectly reasonable and supported by the evidence. We're all just human, after all.William J Murray
August 28, 2022
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Chuckdarwin @442, Notice that your original comment was:
Jesus would never call someone a “dumb sh*t,” even if they were……
To which you changed to
“I don’t believe Jesus is ever reported in the NT having called someone a “dumb sh*t.”
First off, let me point out that the New Testament is written in Greek, likely translated from Aramaic, obviating the expression in English. Secondly, the expression itself is American slang, but has Greek and Aramaic equivalents that I provided as examples. On the other hand, you provided nothing cogent, but simply moved the goalposts. -QQuerius
August 27, 2022
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Ba77 at 443, You misunderstand. Seversky wants to sit God down and give him a stern talking-to. Sev: Look God! Pain and suffering! I want it gone right now! DO IT !!! And so on... Romans 1:21 "For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened."relatd
August 27, 2022
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Seversky, now wait one minute, it is 'Dad's fault', after patiently warning, and waiting for a people to repent of their sins, for rendering sinners their just due?
Peter J Williams on New Atheists & Old Testament (incl. The Canaanites) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulCbh_1SlwE
Or Seversky, do you really want to hold on to the absurd proposition that we should live in a world without justice? After all, that is exactly the absurd proposition that your atheistic worldview entails, i.e. "no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference",,,
"The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.” - Dawkins
bornagain77
August 27, 2022
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Querius/435 "How would you know?" Well, I don't believe Jesus is ever reported in the NT having called someone a "dumb sh*t." I'm sure such a pithy invective would have been reported in at least one of the gospels. You know like, "Hey Peter, you dumb sh*t, trim the sail before we all drown..." Or, "Peter, you dumb sh*t, don't be cutting peoples' ears off...." This is one of those cases where absence of evidence is evidence of absence.....chuckdarwin
August 27, 2022
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LCD at 440, He's mad at God because he didn't do it HIS way! Which, by the way, is the only way...relatd
August 27, 2022
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Relatd Seversky at 436, Hey, loud mouth! What do you care? You think you can tell Christians what they should do? Watch it.
As long as Sewersky is more moral than God don't you think that s/he has the right to tell you what to do? You should obey and bow to his authority and his messages from here should be compiled and taught in schools. He loves you that's why he fight against Christianity. Don't you feel the love that fill all his messages? :lol:Lieutenant Commander Data
August 27, 2022
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Seversky at 436, Hey, loud mouth! What do you care? You think you can tell Christians what they should do? Watch it.relatd
August 27, 2022
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