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At Evolution News: Rosenhouse’s Whoppers: The Environment as a Source of Information

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William Dembski writes:

I am responding again to Jason Rosenhouse about his book The Failures of Mathematical Anti-Evolutionism. See my earlier posts here and here.

In Rosenhouse’s book, he claims that “natural selection serves as a conduit for transmitting environmental information into the genomes of organisms.” (p. 215) I addressed this claim briefly in my review, indicating that conservation of information shows it to be incomplete and inadequate, but essentially I referred him to technical work by me and colleagues on the topic. In his reply, he remains, as always, unpersuaded. So let me here give another go at explaining the role of the environment as a source of information for Darwinian evolution. As throughout this response, I’m addressing the unwashed middle.

Darwinian evolution depends on selection, variation, and replication working within an environment. How selection, variation, and replication play out, however, depends on the particulars of the environment. Take a simple example, one that Rosenhouse finds deeply convincing and emblematic for biological evolution, namely, Richard Dawkins’s famous METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL simulation (pp. 192–194 of Rosenhouse’s book). Dawkins imagines an environment consisting of sequences of 28 letters and spaces, random variations of those letters, and a fitness function that rewards sequences to the degree that they are close to (i.e., share letters with) the target sequence METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL. 

So What’s the Problem?

The problem is not with the letter sequences, their randomization, or even the activity of a fitness function in guiding such an evolutionary process, but the very choice of fitness function. Why did the environment happen to fixate on METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL and make evolution drive toward that sequence? Why not a totally random sequence? The whole point of this example is to suggest that evolution can produce something design-like (a meaningful phrase, in this case, from Shakespeare’s Hamlet) without the need for actual design. But most fitness functions would evolve toward random sequences of letters and spaces. So what’s the difference maker in the choice of fitness? If you will, what selects the fitness function that then selects for fitness in the evolutionary process? Well, leaving aside some sort of interventional design (and not all design needs to be interventional), it’s got to be the environment. 

But that’s the problem. What renders one environment an interesting source of evolutionary change given selection, variation, and replication but others uninteresting? Most environments, in fact, don’t lead to any interesting form of evolution. Consider Sol Spiegelman’s work on the evolution of polynucleotides in a replicase environment. One thing that makes real world biological evolution interesting, assuming it actually happens, is that it increases information in the items that are undergoing evolution. Yet Spiegelman demonstrated that even with selection, variation, and replication in play, information steadily decreased over the course of his experiment. Brian Goodwin, in his summary of Spiegelman’s work, highlights this point (How the Leopard Changed Its Spots, pp. 35–36):

In a classic experiment, Spiegelman in 1967 showed what happens to a molecular replicating system in a test tube, without any cellular organization around it. The replicating molecules (the nucleic acid templates) require an energy source, building blocks (i.e., nucleotide bases), and an enzyme to help the polymerization process that is involved in self-copying of the templates. Then away it goes, making more copies of the specific nucleotide sequences that define the initial templates. But the interesting result was that these initial templates did not stay the same; they were not accurately copied. They got shorter and shorter until they reached the minimal size compatible with the sequence retaining self-copying properties. And as they got shorter, the copying process went faster. So what happened with natural selection in a test tube: the shorter templates that copied themselves faster became more numerous, while the larger ones were gradually eliminated. This looks like Darwinian evolution in a test tube. But the interesting result was that this evolution went one way: toward greater simplicity.

Simple and Yet Profound

At issue here is a simple and yet profound point of logic that continually seems to elude Darwinists as they are urged to come to terms with how it can be that the environment is able to bring about the information that leads to any interesting form of evolution. And just to be clear, what makes evolution interesting is that it purports to build all the nifty biological systems that we see around us. But most forms of evolution, whether in a biology lab or on a computer mainframe, build nothing interesting. 

The logical point at issue here is one the philosopher John Stuart Mill described back in the 19th century. He called it the “method of difference” and laid it out in his System of Logic. According to this method, to discover which of a set of circumstances is responsible for an observed difference in outcomes requires identifying a circumstance that is present when the outcome occurs and absent when it doesn’t occur. An immediate corollary of this method is that common circumstances cannot explain a difference in outcomes

So if selection, variation, and replication operating within an environment can produce wildly different types of evolution (information increasing, information decreasing, interesting, uninteresting, engineering like, organismic like, etc.), then something else besides these factors needs to be in play. Conservation of information says that the difference maker is information built into the environment. 

In any case, the method of difference shows that such information cannot be reducible to Darwinian processes, which is to say, to selection, variation, and replication (because these are common to all forms of Darwinian evolution). Darwinists, needless to say, don’t like that conclusion. But they are nonetheless stuck with it. The logic is airtight and it means that their theory is fundamentally incomplete. For more on this, see my article with Bob Marks titled “Life’s Conservation Law” (especially section 8). 

Evolution News

Dembski’s conclusions are consistent with expectations from information theory and the generalized 2nd law of thermodynamics; namely, that natural processes cause a system to lose information over the passage of time. If an increase in information is seen in any system (such as life from non-life, or the appearance of novel, functional body plans or physiological systems), then natural processes cannot have been the cause. If not natural, then the increase in information must have come from an intelligent agent (the only known source of functional information).

Comments
Kairosfocus: specified as to threshold of 500 – 1,000 bits of FSCO/i. How do you know when you've hit that threshold? How do you measure FSCO/I? We all know better, you know better, it is high time for you to do better. Just spell out your methodology for detecting and measuring FSCO/I. Why won't you do that?JVL
September 2, 2022
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Relatd: Yes, it’s all functional, all of it. Why does a marbled lungfish need a genome of 130 GB of base pairs whereas humans only need 3.1 GB of base pairs? Considering that ID is a better explanation.JVL
September 2, 2022
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If selection, variation, and replication produce both information increasing and decreasing then this “set of circumstances cannot be responsible for the observed difference.”
I was just trying to help improve your analogy to something closer to what I assumed you intended, an analogy for evolution, where successive rounds of variation and selection result in adaptive change. In that improvement, winning racehorses get to leave progeny, losing racehorses don't. If you'd rather have an analogy that doesn't have anything to do with evolution, you're managing fine as you are.Alan Fox
September 2, 2022
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David P at 40, You are missing the simple formula: Anything explains everything in evolution. Evolution is fast except when it's slow. Evolution makes a lot of changes except when it doesn't. Take a fish called the coelacanth. It hasn't changed in millions of years. Fossils show the exact same fish. The earth has gone through CATASTROPHIC changes over millions of years. You know, asteroid strikes, things like that. Really? How about an extinct tree that had gone missing for millions of years? You can buy immature plants right now. It's called the Wollemi Pine. It was found growing in the wild in 1994.relatd
September 2, 2022
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CD at 41, Chuckdarwin has spoken ! I'm sure Dembski did not hear you...relatd
September 2, 2022
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JVL, confession by projection. The method used has been reduced to a flowchart [per aspect . . .], laid out in steps, given as cases, specified as to threshold of 500 - 1,000 bits of FSCO/i. The pretended objection that it is subjective or unrecognisable is answered by the fact that to communicate objections you compose text in English rather than typical random typing gibberishbdrgj3e5tikyyejjrujh or empty repetition sdsdsdsdsdsd -- and that has been on the table since Orgel and Wicken, it isn't even a result of ID theory, it is an antecedent of the theory. We all know better, you know better, it is high time for you to do better. KFkairosfocus
September 2, 2022
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I think Dembski and Rosenhouse should be banished to Thunderdome where the two math geeks can decide this nonsense once and for all. Myself, I'm getting sick of Dembski's whining that no one understands him--It's such a lame DI rag.....chuckdarwin
September 2, 2022
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Just to make it clearer: If a gamblers method picks both winners and losers - that's a really crappy method. According to Rosenhouse selection, variation, and replication explain both an increase and decrease information. How is that not a flawed method? Or these: selection, variation, and replication accounts for both change and stasis. selection, variation, and replication accounts for both adaptation and fixation. selection, variation, and replication accounts for both divergent and convergent evolution. selection, variation, and replication accounts for both....David P
September 2, 2022
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AF, David P just cleaned your niche clock. Andrewasauber
September 2, 2022
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@Alan Fox Perhaps my analogy should have used a roulette wheel, race cars, or plinko game. It isn't about the winning horse so much as it was about the gamblers method to pick them. His method to pick winners actually picks both winners and losers. Therefore the set of circumstances his method relies on cannot be responsible. If selection, variation, and replication produce both information increasing and decreasing then this "set of circumstances cannot be responsible for the observed difference." Another set of circumstances, circumstances that are "present when the outcome occurs and absent when it doesn’t occur" is required to produce information.David P
September 2, 2022
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JVL at 35, Yes, it's all functional, all of it.relatd
September 2, 2022
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Seversky at 20, Your worldview distorts your thinking. No one is proposing an extraterrestrial designer, except you. The obvious designer is God, not some unknown alien being. I think you understand ID but you try to create very unconvincing arguments against it. So Seversky, are you the result of a long evolutionary process? An accident?relatd
September 2, 2022
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Kairosfocus: You have painted yourselves into a corner where the routine measurement of observably functionally specific bits of information has vanished into an artificial ideological blind spot driven by selective hyperskepticism. No, as usual, you misrepresent our views. We don't deny the existence of human created information. We just want to know how (in the case of biological systems for example) you determine if functional, complex, specified information is present AND how you measure how much there is. Is the whole human genome functional, complex, specified information? (About 3.1 GB of base pairs.) Is the whole marbled lungfish genome functional, complex, specified information? (About 130 GB of base pairs.) How about the genome of Tetraodon nigroviridis, a type of puffer fish at 390 MB of base pairs? That's quite a variation just among vertebrates. Are marbled lungfish that much more 'complex' than puffer fish? If part of the marbled lungfish genome is not functional then can you figure out how much is?JVL
September 2, 2022
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Jerry, I need say nothing more on niche, design being a misnomer. Such is incapable of intelligently directed configuration. Designer substitute? Not unless it can be empirically shown capable of creating 500 - 1,000+ bits of FSCO/I. The rhetoric games are because that is not in prospect. The rhetorical stunt on code in D/RNA just exposes the hyperskepticism we see from the penumbra of objectors. KFkairosfocus
September 2, 2022
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On cue, nonsense niche generates more nonsense. Will it lead to the devolution of UD? My prediction: destroy the nonsense gene or it will destroy UD. Maybe natural selection works and a more productive discussion site will emerge in another species.jerry
September 2, 2022
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JVL & AF, you have convinced us that you will refuse to acknowledge even observed facts. In the case of FSCO/I or its superset CSI, it is clear that you have closed your mind to the realities of a world where a few days ago I transferred 32 GB from documents to an SD Card with 50+ GB of ullage to free up a solid state drive. You have painted yourselves into a corner where the routine measurement of observably functionally specific bits of information has vanished into an artificial ideological blind spot driven by selective hyperskepticism. That tells us all we need to know about what is going on, especially where you AF are either implicated in gross and stubborn ignorance on coded D/RNA or tried to run a cynically deceitful bluff and brazen it out rhetorical stunt designed to gull your own supporters. I suggest, some rethinking is in order. KFkairosfocus
September 2, 2022
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"All the heavy lifting is done in the first two billion (that’s two thousand million) years of evolution following the emergence of life on Earth." AF, Conveniently, no evidence of any heavy lifting exists from this Magical Era. Andrewasauber
September 2, 2022
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Alan Fox: Only a demonstration of how you measure it might cause me to re-examine. Jeeze Alan, haven't you learnt anything? They know it when they see it. After all these years . . .JVL
September 2, 2022
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Selective breeding puts that into new combinations and the niche environment (of which the crucial element is the breeder) designs winning racehorses
This is genetics and is incapable of producing anything but a horse. Natural selection obviously did not work in humans to produce a more productive human. For hundreds of thousands of years and tens of thousands of generations, the main characteristic for survival did not develop. That was strength. Strength was needed to make food more available/accessible and would have left more offspring. But it didn’t happen. Why? There is no example of natural selection producing anything really useful. Maybe a hyper imagination? Natural selection is self refuting as a generator of novelty/new characteristics. If it actually generated anything but trivial changes it would destroy the ecology within which the modified species existed and thus, the modified species itself. Logic and evidence are the enemy of the niche fantasy. Of course there is apparently a niche on UD for nonsense as it is well received by most ID commenters. What would they do if they couldn’t repeat the same replies over and over again. Let’s hear it for the nonsense niche. jerry
September 2, 2022
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@ David P Something is missing from your analogy. You only breed from race winners. That is artificial selection. The horse genome already had variation. Selective breeding puts that into new combinations and the niche environment (of which the crucial element is the breeder) designs winning racehorses.Alan Fox
September 2, 2022
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"So if selection, variation, and replication operating within an environment can produce wildly different types of evolution... then something else besides these factors needs to be in play." In other words, selection, variation, and replication can be compared to a gambler's method for picking winners at a horse race involving a certain set of circumstances. Some races this method picks a winner, other races it picks a loser. Whether the gambler likes it or not, some other set of circumstances is at play for determining which horse wins, not his. If we apply John Stuart Mill's method of difference to convergent evolution and divergent evolution we have to admit some factor besides selection, variation, and replication is at play. This is the white elephant in the room and the main thrust of the article. It points out a fatal flaw in Darwinists logic.David P
September 2, 2022
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PS, Orgel
living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . . . [HT, Mung, fr. p. 190 & 196:] These vague idea can be made more precise by introducing the idea of information. Roughly speaking, the information content of a structure is the minimum number of instructions needed to specify the structure.
[--> this is of course equivalent to the string of yes/no questions required to specify the relevant J S Wicken "wiring diagram" for the set of functional states, T, in the much larger space of possible clumped or scattered configurations, W, as Dembski would go on to define in NFL in 2002, also cf here, -- here and -- here -- (with here on self-moved agents as designing causes).]
One can see intuitively that many instructions are needed to specify a complex structure. [--> so if the q's to be answered are Y/N, the chain length is an information measure that indicates complexity in bits . . . ] On the other hand a simple repeating structure can be specified in rather few instructions.  [--> do once and repeat over and over in a loop . . . ] Complex but random structures, by definition, need hardly be specified at all . . . . Paley was right to emphasize the need for special explanations of the existence of objects with high information content, for they cannot be formed in nonevolutionary, inorganic processes [--> Orgel had high hopes for what Chem evo and body-plan evo could do by way of info generation beyond the FSCO/I threshold, 500 - 1,000 bits.] [The Origins of Life (John Wiley, 1973), p. 189, p. 190, p. 196.]
Wicken
‘Organized’systems are to be carefully distinguished from ‘ordered’ systems. Neither kind of system is ‘random,’ but whereas ordered systems are generated according to simple algorithms [i.e. “simple” force laws acting on objects starting from arbitrary and common- place initial conditions and/or repetitive stepwise procedures] and therefore lack complexity, organized systems must be assembled element by element according to an [ --> originally . . . ] external ‘wiring diagram’ with a high information content . . . Organization, then, is functional complexity and carries information. It is non-random by design or by selection, rather than by the a priori necessity of crystallographic ‘order.’ [“The Generation of Complexity in Evolution: A Thermodynamic and Information-Theoretical Discussion,” Journal of Theoretical Biology, 77 (April 1979): p. 353, of pp. 349-65. (Emphases and notes added. Nb: “originally” is added to highlight that for self-replicating systems, the blue print can be built-in.)]
kairosfocus
September 2, 2022
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AF, first you know I only provided a summary phrase for an observable phenomenon highlighted by Orgel and Wicken in the 70s. Second, to object you provided yet another case in point. Third, your attempt to dismiss the point that FSCO/I is found in D/RNA has collapsed. Fourth, you are trying the Alinsky tactic, personalisation and polarisation; fail. KFkairosfocus
September 2, 2022
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Sev, explain please, the coded algorithmic information in D/RNA, antecedent to cellular metabolism and replication.
It seems endemic among ID proponents here to ask questions they themselves can't be answer, no matter how they load them. Algorithmic! Good grief.Alan Fox
September 2, 2022
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AF, as usual, to object and toss out assertions of fallacy you provided yet another example of the known, reliable source of FSCO/I, intelligently directed configuration. Trillions of cases in point. KF
You know full well what I think of your "FSCO/I". Repetition won't change my opinion. Only a demonstration of how you measure it might cause me to re-examine.Alan Fox
September 2, 2022
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Sev, explain please, the coded algorithmic information in D/RNA, antecedent to cellular metabolism and replication. Make reference to Newton's rule to control unfettered speculation, alleged causes must have good observational support for their claimed causal power. KFkairosfocus
September 1, 2022
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AF, as usual, to object and toss out assertions of fallacy you provided yet another example of the known, reliable source of FSCO/I, intelligently directed configuration. Trillions of cases in point. KFkairosfocus
September 1, 2022
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Caspian/16
Like many others, you correctly surmise that the environment is a source of information, but unfortunately for evolutionary hopefuls, it is a woefully insufficient source of information.
What exactly is this information and how is it quantified such that you can assert there isn't enough of it in the terrestrial environment to account for life on Earth? We're all talking about "information" as if it is a univocal concept and we're all agreed on its meaning. Except we aren't. And, if Dembski's proposed conservation law of information means that it can neither be created nor destroyed then it must have always existed, which rather obviates the need for a Creator. I also think it's unlikely you will find anyone in biology who commits the Hoyle fallacy of claiming that complex modern organisms sprang into existence in a single bound from simple, inanimate precursors. The claim is that modern organisms are the latest stage in a long evolutionary pathway made of small, incremental steps, most of which have not been captured in the fossil record. The lack of such evidence is obviously unsatisfactory but we have to make do with what we have and, spotty as it is, it is still more then we have to support the proposal of an extraterrestrial Intelligent Designer.Seversky
September 1, 2022
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Do flowers and birds and dogs appear to be the end result of chance?
Remember the niche. The bias that fuels selection.Alan Fox
September 1, 2022
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This impotency of nature to generate functionally complex systems, is why we see evidence for intelligent design as the explanation for living things. Why is this apparently so hard to accept?
I'm not convinced by the Sherlock Holmes fallacy. When eliminating unsatisfactory explanations and arriving at the default, you have to be sure you haven't overlooked anything. Sure, evolution is an incomplete explanation and there may be better explanations that improve on or replace evolutionary theory. But (I keep saying this) "Intelligent Design" either explains everything or nothing. It's untestable. It can't simply be there just because other explanations are deemed inadequate.Alan Fox
September 1, 2022
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