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At Evolution News: The Standard Story of Human Evolution: A Critical Look

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Casey Luskin writes:

Despite disagreements, there is a standard story of human evolution that is retold in countless textbooks, news media articles, and documentaries. Indeed, virtually all the scientists I am citing here accept some evolutionary account of human origins, albeit flawed. 

Starting with the early hominins and moving through the australopithecines, and then into the genus Homo, I will review the fossil evidence and assess whether it supports this standard account of human evolution. As we shall see, the evidence — or lack thereof — often contradicts this evolutionary story.

Photo: Ardipithecus ramidus, by Tiia Monto, CC BY-SA 3.0 , via Wikimedia Commons.

Early Hominins

In 2015, two leading paleoanthropologists reviewed the fossil evidence regarding human evolution in a prestigious scientific volume titled Macroevolution. They acknowledged the “dearth of unambiguous evidence for ancestor-descendant lineages,” and admitted, 

[T]he evolutionary sequence for the majority of hominin lineages is unknown. Most hominin taxa, particularly early hominins, have no obvious ancestors, and in most cases ancestor-descendant sequences (fossil time series) cannot be reliably constructed.1

Nevertheless, numerous theories have been promoted about early hominins and their ancestral relationships to humans.

One leading fossil is described below:

Ardipithecus ramidus: Irish Stew or Breakthrough of the Year?

In 2009, Science announced the long-awaited publication of details about Ardipithecus ramidus (pictured above), a would-be hominin fossil that lived about 4.4 million years ago (mya). Expectations mounted after its discoverer, UC Berkeley paleoanthropologist Tim White, promised a “phenomenal individual” that would be the “Rosetta stone for understanding bipedalism.”17 The media eagerly employed the hominin they affectionately dubbed Ardi to evangelize the public for Darwin.

Discovery Channel ran the headline “‘Ardi,’ Oldest Human Ancestor, Unveiled,” and quoted White calling Ardi “as close as we have ever come to finding the last common ancestor of chimpanzees and humans.”18 The Associated Press declared, “World’s Oldest Human-Linked Skeleton Found,” and stated that “the new find provides evidence that chimps and humans evolved from some long-ago common ancestor.”19 Science named Ardi the “breakthrough of the year” for 2009,20 and introduced her with the headline, “A New Kind of Ancestor: Ardipithecus Unveiled.”21

Calling Ardi “new” may have been a poor word choice, for it was discovered in the early 1990s. Why did it take some 15 years to publish the analyses? A 2002 article in Science explains the bones were “soft,” “crushed,” “squished,” and “chalky.”22 Later reports similarly acknowledged that “portions of Ardi’s skeleton were found crushed nearly to smithereens and needed extensive digital reconstruction,” including the pelvis, which “looked like an Irish stew.”23

Claims about bipedal locomotion require accurate measurements of the precise shapes of key bones (like the pelvis). Can one trust declarations of a “Rosetta stone for understanding bipedalism” when Ardi was “crushed to smithereens”? Science quoted various paleoanthropologists who were “skeptical that the crushed pelvis really shows the anatomical details needed to demonstrate bipedality.”24

Even some who accepted Ardi’s reconstructions weren’t satisfied that the fossil was a bipedal human ancestor. Primatologist Esteban Sarmiento concluded in Science that “[a]ll of the Ar. ramidus bipedal characters cited also serve the mechanical requisites of quadrupedality, and in the case of Ar. ramidus foot-segment proportions, find their closest functional analog to those of gorillas, a terrestrial or semiterrestrial quadruped and not a facultative or habitual biped.”25 Bernard Wood questioned whether Ardi’s postcranial skeleton qualified it as a hominin,26 and co-wrote in Nature that if “Ardipithecus is assumed to be a hominin,” then it had “remarkably high levels of homoplasy [similarity] among extant great apes.”27 A 2021 study found that Ardi’s hands were well-suited for climbing and swinging in trees, and for knuckle-walking, giving it a chimp-like mode of locomotion.28 In other words, Ardi had ape-like characteristics which, if we set aside the preferences of Ardi’s promoters, should imply a closer relationship to apes than to humans. As the authors of the Nature article stated, Ardi’s “being a human ancestor is by no means the simplest, or most parsimonious explanation.”29Sarmiento even observed that Ardi had characteristics different from both humans and African apes, such as its unfused jaw joint, which ought to remove her far from human ancestry.30

Whatever Ardi was, everyone agrees the fossils was initially badly crushed and needed extensive reconstruction. No doubt this debate will continue, but are we obligated to accept the “human ancestor” position promoted by Ardi’s discoverers in the media? Sarmiento doesn’t think so. According Time magazine, he “regards the hype around Ardi to have been overblown.”31

Full article at Evolution News.

Notes

  1. Bernard Wood and Mark Grabowski, “Macroevolution in and around the Hominin Clade,” Macroevolution: Explanation, Interpretation, and Evidence, eds. Serrelli Emanuele and Nathalie Gontier (Heidelberg, Germany: Springer, 2015), 347-376.
  2. Michel Brunet et al., “Sahelanthropus or ‘Sahelpithecus’?,” Nature 419 (October 10, 2002), 582.
  3. Michel Brunet et al., “A new hominid from the Upper Miocene of Chad, Central Africa,” Nature 418 (July 11, 2002), 145-151. See also Michel Brunet et al., “New material of the earliest hominid from the Upper Miocene of Chad,” Nature 434 (April 7, 2005), 752-755. 
  4. Smithsonian Natural Museum of Natural History, “Sahelanthropus tchadensis,” https://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-fossils/species/sahelanthropus-tchadensis (accessed November 30, 2020).
  5. “Skull Find Sparks Controversy,” BBC News (July 12, 2002), http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2125244.stm (accessed October 26, 2020).
  6. Milford Wolpoff et al., “Sahelanthropus or ‘Sahelpithecus’?” Nature 419 (October 10, 2002), 581-582.
  7. Roberto Macchiarelli et al., “Nature and relationships of Sahelanthropus tchadensis,” Journal of Human Evolution 149 (2020), 102898.
  8. Macchiarelli et al., “Nature and relationships of Sahelanthropus tchadensis.”
  9. Madelaine Böhme, quoted in Michael Marshall, “Our supposed earliest human relative may have walked on four legs,” New Scientist (November 18, 2020), https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24833093-600-our-supposed-earliest-human-relative-may-have-walked-on-four-legs/ (accessed November 30, 2020).
  10. Bob Yirka, “Study of partial left femur suggests Sahelanthropus tchadensis was not a hominin after all,” Phys.org (November 24, 2020), https://phys.org/news/2020-11-partial-left-femur-sahelanthropus-tchadensis.html (accessed November 30, 2020).
  11. Potts and Sloan, What Does It Mean to Be Human?, 38.
  12. John Noble Wilford, “Fossils May Be Earliest Human Link,” New York Times (July 12, 2001), http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/12/world/fossils-may-be-earliest-human-link.html (accessed October 26, 2020).
  13. John Noble Wilford, “On the Trail of a Few More Ancestors,” New York Times (April 8, 2001), http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/08/world/on-the-trail-of-a-few-more-ancestors.html (accessed October 26, 2020).
  14. Leslie Aiello and Mark Collard, “Our Newest Oldest Ancestor?” Nature 410 (March 29, 2001), 526-527.
  15. K. Galik et al., “External and Internal Morphology of the BAR 1002’00 Orrorin tugenensis Femur,” Science 305 (September 3, 2004), 1450-1453.
  16. Sarmiento, Sawyer, and Milner, The Last Human, 35.
  17. Tim White, quoted in Ann Gibbons, “In Search of the First Hominids,” Science 295 (February 15, 2002), 1214-1219.
  18. Jennifer Viegas, “‘Ardi,’ Oldest Human Ancestor, Unveiled,” Discovery News (October 1, 2009), https://web.archive.org/web/20110613073934/http://news.discovery.com/history/ardi-human-ancestor.html (accessed October 26, 2020).
  19. Randolph Schmid, “World’s Oldest Human-Linked Skeleton Found,” NBC News (October 1, 2009), https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna33110809 (accessed October 26, 2020). 
  20. Ann Gibbons, “Breakthrough of the Year: Ardipithecus ramidus,” Science 326 (December 18, 2009), 1598-1599.
  21. Gibbons, “New Kind of Ancestor,” 36-40.
  22. White, quoted in Gibbons, “In Search of the First Hominids,” 1214-1219, 1215-1216.
  23. Michael Lemonick and Andrea Dorfman, “Ardi Is a New Piece for the Evolution Puzzle,” Time (October 1, 2009), http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1927289,00.html (accessed October 26, 2020).
  24. Gibbons, “New Kind of Ancestor,” 36-40, 39.
  25. Esteban Sarmiento, “Comment on the Paleobiology and Classification of Ardipithecus ramidus,” Science 328 (May 28, 2010), 1105b.
  26. Gibbons, “New Kind of Ancestor,” 36-40.
  27. Bernard Wood and Terry Harrison, “The Evolutionary Context of the First Hominins,” Nature 470 (February 17, 2011), 347-352.
  28. Thomas C. Prang, Kristen Ramirez, Mark Grabowski, and Scott A. Williams, “Ardipithecus hand provides evidence that humans and chimpanzees evolved from an ancestor with suspensory adaptations,” Science Advances 7 (February 24, 2021), eabf2474.
  29. New York University, “Fossils may look like human bones: Biological anthropologists question claims for human ancestry,” ScienceDaily (February 16, 2011), https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110216132034.htm (accessed October 26, 2020).
  30. See Eben Harrell, “Ardi: The Human Ancestor Who Wasn’t?,” Time (May 27, 2010), http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1992115,00.html (accessed October 26, 2020).
  31. Harrell, “Ardi: The Human Ancestor Who Wasn’t?”
Comments
Kairosfocus: it is simple enough. f1: definition, assignment of o/p value to y1, similar for f2. The main point is for any x in r, correlated y1 and y2 have the same vertical separation for algebraic reasons, so we see why the lines are parallel, rather than taking an arbitrary statement. That we are using a modified version of C allows us to specify, too, what a flat, planar Euclidean space is about. C? What are you talking about? If you mean complex numbers (which there is no reason to bring up) then just say so! You always want to make things sound math-y. Just say them simply.JVL
October 29, 2022
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JVL, unguided macro evolution creating novel body plans has never been observed. That is my specification, following Newton's rules for good reason. Again, Lyell:
PRINCIPLES OF GEOLOGY: BEING AN INQUIRY HOW FAR THE FORMER CHANGES OF THE EARTH’S SURFACE ARE REFERABLE TO CAUSES NOW IN OPERATION. [--> appeal to Newton's Rules, in the title of the work] BY CHARLES LYELL, Esq, F.R.S. PRESIDENT OF THE GEOLOGICAL SOCIETY OF LONDON . . . JOHN MURRAY , , , 1835 [--> later, publisher of Origin]
Causes now in operation speaks to actually observed. Next, Kindly simply click the linked, above and now repeated. https://uncommondescent.com/darwinist-debaterhetorical-tactics/protein-synthesis-what-frequent-objector-af-cannot-acknowledge/ I took time to add another point where Lehninger directly compares a stele. KFkairosfocus
October 29, 2022
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JVL, it is simple enough. f1: definition, assignment of o/p value to y1, similar for f2. The main point is for any x in r, correlated y1 and y2 have the same vertical separation for algebraic reasons, so we see why the lines are parallel, rather than taking an arbitrary statement. That we are using a modified version of C allows us to specify, too, what a flat, planar Euclidean space is about. In former years we have had people playing with contexts to make this postulate seem arbitrary and ill advised. It is not, once we keep the planar context in mind. KFkairosfocus
October 29, 2022
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Kairosfocus: If you doubt kindly provide documentation of observed creation of 500 bits by said blind chance and mechanical necessity, Unguided evolution as specified in countless books, text books, papers, research and data. NO ONE claims all that 'information' came about suddenly. This gets back to what you think the first 'life' on Earth was like. HINT: it wasn't a cell. Look, you are the one claiming that the widely held scientific paradigm is incorrect so you need to propose an alternative hypothesis and show it does a better job explaining the data. BUT, when queried, ID does not do a better job explaining the data because you cannot say WHEN design was implemented, HOW design was implemented, or PREDICT what will come next. you are here also trying to pretend that you disagree with me on D/RNA having coded algorithmic info You may have answered this somewhere and I've missed it so I apologise if that's the case . . . my question is: show an example of one of those algorithms. I'm happy with a link if I've missed the response.JVL
October 29, 2022
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Kairosfocus: I have in mind distinct pairs of ‘vertically’ separated points in two parallel lines, and colons work as here comes specification of a function . BTW, I should have explicitly said m is in R too. You are overly complicating the idea. Keep things simple so the point is clear.JVL
October 29, 2022
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AF, there is no -- zip, zilch, nil, nada, nyet -- repeat, no evidence of actual observation that in 4.6 BY, 500 BITS of FSCO/I can be created by blind chance and mechanical necessity on the gamut of our solar system, much less what is needed to transform ape to man. If you doubt kindly provide documentation of observed creation of 500 bits by said blind chance and mechanical necessity, a classic would be text generation without front loading with active information. So, oh in 5 my or 8 to 10 we go from ape to man easy peasy is fantasy. Part of a wider, deeply institutionalised fantasy but still a fantasy. KF PS, a wiki confession:
[Wikipedia confesses regarding the infinite monkeys theorem:] The theorem concerns a thought experiment which cannot be fully carried out in practice, since it is predicted to require prohibitive amounts of time and resources. Nonetheless, it has inspired efforts in finite random text generation. One computer program run by Dan Oliver of Scottsdale, Arizona, according to an article in The New Yorker, came up with a result on August 4, 2004: After the group had worked for 42,162,500,000 billion billion monkey-years, one of the "monkeys" typed,
"VALENTINE. Cease toIdor:eFLP0FRjWK78aXzVOwm)-‘;8.t"
The first 19 letters of this sequence can be found in "The Two Gentlemen of Verona". Other teams have reproduced 18 characters from "Timon of Athens", 17 from "Troilus and Cressida", and 16 from "Richard II".[26] A website entitled The Monkey Shakespeare Simulator, launched on July 1, 2003, contained a Java applet that simulated a large population of monkeys typing randomly, with the stated intention of seeing how long it takes the virtual monkeys to produce a complete Shakespearean play from beginning to end. For example, it produced this partial line from Henry IV, Part 2, reporting that it took "2,737,850 million billion billion billion monkey-years" to reach 24 matching characters:
RUMOUR. Open your ears; 9r"5j5&?OWTY Z0d...
[ACC: Dec 17, 2019. NB: Where, also, as this is a digital age, we will readily see that we can compose a description language and then create a string of yes/no questions to specify any reasonable object -- as say AutoCAD etc do. Thus, our seemingly simplistic discussion on bit strings *-*-*- . . . is in fact without loss of generality [WLOG].] [Comment: 16 - 24 ASCII characters is far short of the relevant thresholds, at best, a factor of about 1 in 10^100. Yes, the article goes on to note that "instead of simply generating random characters one restricts the generator to a meaningful vocabulary and conservatively following grammar rules, like using a context-free grammar, then a random document generated this way can even fool some humans." But, that is simply implicitly conceding that design makes a big difference to what can be done. ]
PPS, you are here also trying to pretend that you disagree with me on D/RNA having coded algorithmic info and it's my fault when you have a quote from Lehninger and a link to an OP on the subject. Where also you clearly understood that I stated just that about D/RNA and you pretended it was because I am ignorant etc. I quoted Lehninger and Heirs to show just how off base you are.kairosfocus
October 29, 2022
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JVL, I have in mind distinct pairs of 'vertically' separated points in two parallel lines, and colons work as here comes specification of a function . BTW, I should have explicitly said m is in R too. KFkairosfocus
October 29, 2022
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Kairosfocus: in case. Set f1: mx + c1 –> y1, and f2: mx + c2 –> y2, m the same and constants c1 != c2. Then for any x in R, y1 and Y2 will have the same separation c1 – c2. This clarifies what parallel means and how such lines never converge. You certainly have idiosyncratic ways of noting things. It's clearer if you write: l1: y = mx + c1 l2: y = mx + c2 Or f1(x) = mx + c1 f2(x) = mx + c2 Mathematics doesn't have to be obtuse and hard to read.JVL
October 29, 2022
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You have never had a sound, straightforward, whole hearted acknowledgement of your error regarding these generally known and otherwise uncontroversial facts.
I've made many errors in posting here (that in itself is the worst) and I'm happy to acknowledge and correct them, if I spot them or someone points it out (DIL for niece). I suspect you are referring to a point on which we disagree, or something you have written that makes no sense to me (that happens a lot). It's also possible I've not read something. Your "literary" style is off-putting to anyone more used to the twenty-first century and I skip the repetitive bits (which saves much time). Given the above, I suggest you post a link and covering note to the source of your grievance and I'll respond as I think fit.Alan Fox
October 29, 2022
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AF, there are highly material skeletal differences that are not simply accountable.
Accountable? Accountable to whom? What are you asserting? That skeletal changes between Ardipithecus ramidus and Homo sapiens can't be accounted for by 4.5 million years of accumulated and selected variation? Come on then, be specific. Tell us of a change that can't be explained by evolution. For bonus points, let's have your alternative explanation.Alan Fox
October 29, 2022
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PS, you full well know that one may readily infer and with good warrant, that X is the case without knowing the specific or general means. For example, we still do not know the trade secrets of Stradivarius and cannot replicate his sound. Hence, why his violins are particularly precious. [cf here] We still do not know how the pyramids were built. And in any case, we already have first steps of design of life forms given Venter et al. I suggest, further, something obvious. Programmed nanotech is the means we see in biology, why would it then be so inconceivable that advanced programmed nanotech was used to begin with?kairosfocus
October 29, 2022
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AF, there are highly material skeletal differences that are not simply accountable. Next, the standard talking point is all too well known on accounting for our capabilities. What they fail at was long since highlighted by Haldane. Responsible rational freedom just simply is the requisite of sound theorising. It is also, necessarily, utterly distinct from dynamic-stochastic computation on a substrate. Even as ground-consequence chains freely acknowledged to be right and accepted are cheese to the chalk of blind inherently causal consequence of computational steps or phases driven by GIGO and functioning as canned reasoning of a programmer. Where, your programmer of choice is blind lucky noise filtered by incremental success. Something which, nowhere, never, has been observed to write complex code and linked successful algorithms. So, it is fallacious ideological imposition. Such crooked yardsticks have next led you into dismissive personalising rather than willingness to acknowledge the key insight of Orgel and Wicken, or that of Dembski who noted that in biosystems complex specified information is cashed out as [configuration based] function. FSCO/I is as real and as observable and identifiable as the difference between your writing text in English and your having written gibberish of empty repetitive short blocks of characters. And you full well know this, you cannot but know it. So, we can freely infer that your attempt to deny the reality of FSCO/I even while your objection is a case in point, is a selectively hyperskeptical dismissal as deep down you face a conflict that to acknowledge it is fatal to your preferred ideology. We simply note that this starts with the coded algorithms in the living cell and their execution machinery:
"The information in DNA is encoded in its linear (one-dimensional) sequence of deoxyribonucleotide subunits . . . . A linear sequence of deoxyribonucleotides in DNA codes (through an intermediary, RNA) for the production of a protein with a corresponding linear sequence of amino acids . . . Although the final shape of the folded protein is dictated by its amino acid sequence, the folding of many proteins is aided by “molecular chaperones” . . . The precise three-dimensional structure, or native conformation, of the protein is crucial to its function." [Principles of Biochemistry, 8th Edn, 2021, pp 194 – 5. Now authored by Nelson, Cox et al, Lehninger having passed on in 1986. Attempts to rhetorically pretend on claimed superior knowledge of Biochemistry, that D/RNA does not contain coded information expressing algorithms using string data structures, collapse. We now have to address the implications of language, goal directed stepwise processes and underlying sophisticated polymer chemistry and molecular nanotech in the heart of cellular metabolism and replication.]
See https://uncommondescent.com/darwinist-debaterhetorical-tactics/protein-synthesis-what-frequent-objector-af-cannot-acknowledge/ You have never had a sound, straightforward, whole hearted acknowledgement of your error regarding these generally known and otherwise uncontroversial facts. KFkairosfocus
October 29, 2022
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FSCO/I is rightly regarded as a sign of such design.
By whom other than your good self, who is unable or unwilling to explain the methodology.Alan Fox
October 29, 2022
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Evolutionary explanation for human cognition. Selective pressure over 4 million years favouring increased cognitive ability. Brains get bigger. "Intelligent Design" explanation is _____? KF or anyone please explain and include supporting evidence. TIA.Alan Fox
October 29, 2022
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We are primates, yes, as a structural categorisation but the skeletal differences are already telling, and the mental differences are beyond reasonable doubt.
Ardipithecus ramidus lived in Africa around 4.4 million years ago. They (noted PM1) have skeletal adaptations both for bipedality and arboreal existence, occupying a transitional niche between forest and savannah. Evolutionary pathways can be hypothesised without recourse to saltation or special creation.Alan Fox
October 28, 2022
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PS, in case. Set f1: mx + c1 --> y1, and f2: mx + c2 --> y2, m the same and constants c1 != c2. Then for any x in R, y1 and Y2 will have the same separation c1 - c2. This clarifies what parallel means and how such lines never converge.kairosfocus
October 28, 2022
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Q, a possible world is a reasonably complete set of propositions describing how this or another world may be. This then allows us to exert logic of being analysis to distinguish impossible vs possible beings, thence contingent vs necessary world framework beings. Of the last, I find we can identify core mathematical entities, sets and structures that are part of the fabric of any possible world and of course that confers universal power to that core, N,Z,Q,R,C,R* and linked results. Just C brings in a quantifiable version of the Euclidean plane and grounds its results algebraically, e.g. we do x, then jx --> y, so then we take y = mx + c as specifying straight lines then we can define what parallel lines are and why for any real values of coordinates they will never meet. . God, of course, is a serious candidate necessary being, which if properly reckoned with utterly changes the terms of current debates. On unicorns, I believe there is a market for such, and likely within a century they will exist via genetic engineering. As to completely frictionless situations, pipe dream, though like absolute zero we can come close. And more. KFkairosfocus
October 28, 2022
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Seversky, no, we are not. We are primates, yes, as a structural categorisation but the skeletal differences are already telling, and the mental differences are beyond reasonable doubt. KFkairosfocus
October 28, 2022
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JVL, in all fairness, we all know that once a key case study passage is on the table, it may have in it one of the most powerful forensic, historical and hermeneutical points: an embarrassing admission against interest. Such has particular weight precisely as it implies that an objector cannot dismiss or deny the point. For most recent example, while Plato does put on the table the idea of philosopher kings, he is forced to put in his Socrates character's mouth -- there is no guarantee Socrates actually had such a conversation -- the admission that he agreed with the objector that a great many students of philosophy were failures at making a good difference, even as he argued that looter mutineers who could not sail the ship of state aright would predictably marginalise, defame or murder those they should acknowledge as competent. Similarly, that pattern is at the heart of the Christian Gospels, which are historic, and of course Ac 27 is actually a miniature real world case of the Ship of State in action. I actually take Plato's allusion to a FLEET as a subtle allusion to the notorious Sicilian expedition. Oddly, Ac 27 is in almost the same waters. There are many, many telling admissions by evolutionary materialistic scientism advocates and fellow travellers that should be collected, pondered and heeded. Further, you should be willing to acknowledge that for over a decade I have consistently argued that we have worldviews with first plausibles and should exert comparative difficulties analysis. Also, I have pointed to the centrality of abductive inference to the best explanation and accountability before factual adequacy, coherence and balance of explanatory power. Then, you know full well that Newton was right to insist that claimed causal factors be shown to have the requisite capability by being observed to actually work as causes of the like effects. Are you prepared to argue that such things are mere empty dismissible bias worth only a one phrase sneer? If so, you know which side of the mutiny you are on. KF PS, a reminder on Newton's rules:
PRINCIPLES OF GEOLOGY: BEING AN INQUIRY HOW FAR THE FORMER CHANGES OF THE EARTH’S SURFACE ARE REFERABLE TO CAUSES NOW IN OPERATION. [--> appeal to Newton's Rules, in the title of the work] BY CHARLES LYELL, Esq, F.R.S. PRESIDENT OF THE GEOLOGICAL SOCIETY OF LONDON . . . JOHN MURRAY , , , 1835 [--> later, publisher of Origin]
Now, kindly show us where suggested forces of blind chance and/or mechanical necessity were ever demonstrated and observed to be capable of causing Orgel-Wicken functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information beyond 500 to 1,000 bits, as regards origin of life [note Tour's critique], origin of major body plans or origin of the human body plan and mental capabilities. We all know there is no actual observation of such capability meanwhile intelligently directed configuration is such a clearly demonstrated source of FSCO/i that FSCO/I is rightly regarded as a sign of such design. Except, when the great evolutionary materialist ideological imposition is used to shut down and marginalise.kairosfocus
October 28, 2022
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Relatd/105
I’d very much like to see that. Ape to man conversion. With complete evidence. Yes.
What conversion? Humans are apes.Seversky
October 28, 2022
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Bornagain77 @102
Wow, my handle in now being bolded by JVL in his ad hominem posts against me. I guess I should consider that a promotion.
No, it simply means that you've won the debate with JVL. -QQuerius
October 28, 2022
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PyrrhoManiac1 @26, 29, Just some perspectives on your previous comments . . .
I borrowed the phrase from Oyama’s The Ontogeny of Information. It’s quite good. Inoculated me against simplistic neo-Darwinism at an early age.
Because I was really surprised at the presumptuous title, I looked up descriptions of Susan Oyama’s book. The conserved nature of information is a considered by most physicists (including Leonard Susskind and Stephen Hawking) a conundrum to be solved, while others (including Sabine Hossenfelder) consider it unsolvable. Information is obviously transferred physically between physical objects, but its nature and source is problematic. “Shannon Information” relates to data compression. So, how would you differentiate between information and data? Consider this: https://byjus.com/biology/difference-between-data-and-information/ Maybe you can appreciate why I think Susan Oyama’s use of the term is too sloppy to be used outside of psychology.
I’m coming from a philosophical background. It’s more or less standard in philosophy to say that everything conceivable is logically possible.
Not having a background in philosophy, this observation also surprised me. For example, science fiction writers often conceive of faster-than-light travel, but Einstein’s Special Theory of Relativity implies that traveling faster than the speed of light is impossible.
One could, I think, conceive of pink weightless unicorns on a frictionless surface. They just aren’t physically possible.
Lessee, just to have some fun . . . the “unicorn” came from a wildly exaggerated description of the Indian rhino (Rhinoceros unicornis) from the Greek physician and historian Ctesias around 400 BCE in his monograph, On India. So, if we humanely capture one, sedate it, dye it pink, and take it for a ride on a diving transport jet, it will become weightless. A frictionless surface can be defined mathematically as parallel to the floor of the aircraft just under the happily drugged, floating rhino. But your point was that anything conceivable is “logically possible," although "not physically possible." Certainly, logic can be imposed on something like non-Euclidean geometries, but I don’t understand how their existence is logical versus illogical. -QQuerius
October 28, 2022
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"Yes, of course." PM1, How could I ever think otherwise? ;) Andrewasauber
October 28, 2022
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"Ape to man conversion." Relatd, Common Ancestor* To Man conversion. *Common Ancestor being deliciously difficult to put an opposable thumb on. Andrewasauber
October 28, 2022
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Whistler at 104, I'd very much like to see that. Ape to man conversion. With complete evidence. Yes.relatd
October 28, 2022
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PyrrhoManiac1 Well, it’s certainly true that thousands of people before me have also learned the basic principles of scientific reasoning.
Another box checked!All repeats this nonsense too. Let's see the next one. PS: Maybe you want to present some scientific evidences how an animal became another type of animal but just-so stories and assumptions are not allowed only science . ;)whistler
October 28, 2022
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JVL at 101, Allow me to edit the following: "They are too afraid to admit a crack or a chink in what they have been told is the Darwinian armour. Hold the line! Don’t give an inch." Quite true in your case and in the case of the usual suspects here. Bornagain77 has been doing a fine job for the most part. His long and detailed replies, and links, include information anyone can read for themselves. Everything points to evolution sinking like the Titanic right now, but until reassignment, the pro-evolution troops stationed here must repeat the same tired, old lines. Meanwhile, ID has convincingly presented its case and is sweeping aside claims with no foundation. As ID becomes more popular and as research continues, evolution will disappear completely under the waves. Never to be seen again, except as a historical aside. My only quibbles with Ba77 involves certain things related to quantum mechanics, a field of study that is just getting off the ground in earnest.relatd
October 28, 2022
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Wow, my handle in now being bolded by JVL in his ad hominem posts against me. I guess I should consider that a promotion. :)bornagain77
October 28, 2022
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Bornagain77: What does the theory of evolution have to do with the science of biology? And here's another tsunami of copy-and-pasted quotes mined from sources that Bornagain77 has probably not even read. AND, guess what, no one has stepped up to defend BornAgain77's technique. Funny that. It's almost like none of the other ID supporters had paid any attention to what he was doing. Could that be true? . . . Inquiring minds want to know. But, sadly, I predict that there will be no one willing to be honest about such things. They are too afraid to admit a crack or a chink in what they have been told is the ID armour. Hold the line! Don't give an inch. Never, ever admit your opponent has a point or something sensible to say. It is true isn't it that it really is theological? You guys think: if they're for God then they're with us. And we have to label all the others as materialists. You need a black and white split to justify your stance.JVL
October 28, 2022
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Relatd: Ba77’s practices? He can defend himself. I won’t answer the other so-called questions because they aren’t questions. They are questions and, for some reason, you won't offer your opinion. I'll stop asking. Clearly you're afraid of answering. And quit calling it a “point of view” as if one side (only) is right and the other wrong. I was trying to be polite. Do you want me to stop being polite? Like you? Attack, attack, attack? Is that the way forward?JVL
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