Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

At Live Science: Massive tentacled microbe may be direct ancestor of all complex life

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Nicoletta Lanese writes:

Ancient microbes whose existence predates the rise of nucleus-carrying cells on Earth may hold the secrets to how such complex cells first came to be. Now, for the first time, scientists have grown a large enough quantity of these microbes in the lab to study their internal structure in detail, Science reported.

a micrograph of an ancient microbe with a spherical main cell body and bumpy tentacles that extend outwards in all directions
Scientists recently captured detailed images of an Asgard archaeon, an evolutionarily ancient microbe that may have been key to the emergence of complex life on Earth. 
(Image credit: © Thiago Rodrigues-Oliveira, Univ. Wien)

Researchers grew an organism called Lokiarchaeum ossiferum, which belongs to a group of microbes known as Asgard archaea, according to a new report, published Wednesday (Dec. 21) in the journal Nature. Named after the abode of the gods in Norse mythology, Asgard archaea are thought by some scientists to be the closest evolutionary relatives of eukaryotes, cells that package their DNA in a protective bubble called a nucleus. 

On the evolutionary tree of life, Asgards often appear as a “sister” of eukaryotes or as their direct ancestor, Jan Löwe, leader of the Bacterial Cytoskeleton and other Molecular Machines research group at the Medical Research Council (MRC) Laboratory of Molecular Biology in the U.K., wrote in a commentary about the new study. Asgards don’t carry nuclei themselves, but they do contain a suite of genes and proteins that were once thought to be unique to eukaryotes. Researchers have a variety of theories as to how Asgards may have gained primitive nuclei and thus birthed the first complex cells, which later gave rise to plants, animals and humans.  

In 2020, a research group in Japan reported that, after 12 years of work, they’d successfully grown Asgards in the lab

“It has taken six long years to obtain a stable and highly enriched culture, but now we can use this experience to perform many biochemical studies and to cultivate other Asgard archaea as well,” co-senior author Christa Schleper, leader of the archaea ecology and evolution lab at the University of Vienna, said in a statement.

Gathered from mud in a canal on the coast of Piran, Slovenia, the L. ossiferum specimens have funky tentacles that extend from the body of each cell; odd bumps and bulges appear along the length of each appendage. These “surface protrusions” may support the idea that, at some point in evolutionary history, an Asgard grabbed a passing bacterium using similar extensions of its membrane and sucked the bacterium into its cell body, and this led to the development of the nucleus, Löwe wrote. The protrusions support the idea that such an interaction could have occurred, he explained. 

L. ossiferum also carries tiny, lollipop-like structures on its surface, which “look like they come from another planet,” Thijs Ettema, an environmental microbiologist at Wageningen University in the Netherlands who wasn’t involved in the work, told Science. The microbe also contains structural filaments that closely resemble those seen in the cytoskeleton, or supporting scaffold, of eukaryotic cells, Löwe wrote.

Some scientists think the new study strengthens the hypothesis that Asgards are eukaryotes’ direct ancestor, but not everyone is convinced. Read more in Science.

Full article at Live Science.

The following statement by researchers lacks a certain quality of scientific professionalism: “These ‘surface protrusions’ may support the idea that, at some point in evolutionary history, an Asgard grabbed a passing bacterium using similar extensions of its membrane and sucked the bacterium into its cell body, and this led to the development of the nucleus.” Can anybody pinpoint how this statement falls short of scientific expectations, beyond perhaps the elementary school level?

Comments
General comment One reason why I appreciate studying history as a hobby is that with thorough investigation from independent sources and new evidence as it emerges, one can start piecing things together without the pervasive propaganda and politically motivated distortions of contemporary events. For example, in one book on the 20th century Balkans, the author noted that the oral histories of people in the various countries were so profoundly different from each other that it caused him to wonder whether they were even describing the same events. In another example, the assassination of John F. Kennedy 60 years ago is still highly controversial and most people don't believe the conclusions of the Warren Commission report. And now, there's mounting evidence that the WHO, CDC, and big pharma has be lying to us about COVID-19 and vaccine damage. Also consider the tragic life and death of Ignaz Semmelweiss. https://www.britannica.com/biography/Ignaz-Semmelweis Let me suggest that the SAME DYNAMICS are in operation today in all human institutions, including the sciences. -QQuerius
December 30, 2022
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"That’s because there is no sh*t. It simply does not exist." Right. On. Cue. Andrewasauber
December 30, 2022
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@28
And the very first and last thing a leftist will never do, and will never do it unto the grave, is acknowledge any responsibility or hint at any accountability for the daily pile of sh*t that they promote.
That's because there is no sh*t. It simply does not exist. You've been lied to. @30
What is the definition of “right wing?” I’ve never seen a coherent definition of this term. “Left” definitely has a definition but “right” doesn’t.
I don't understand how one can have a definition and the other doesn't. Anyway, there's plenty of stuff to learn from, if you were genuinely interested in learning. I like this nifty new resource called "the Internet".PyrrhoManiac1
December 30, 2022
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These are all lies about the Left. Right-wing grifters like Jordan Peterson, James Lindsay, and Christopher Rufo make a lot of money selling these lies to the gullible fools who get their worldview injected into their brains by downloading Fox News propaganda.
Sounds like someone who gets their worldview from far left sources. What is the definition of “right wing?” I’ve never seen a coherent definition of this term. “Left” definitely has a definition but “right” doesn’t. Aside: never heard of James Lindsay and have seen the name Rufo a couple times but wasn’t aware of anything he wrote. Very familiar with Jordan Peterson. Hard to imagine any coherent negatives about him.
I don’t understand how one can have a definition and the other doesn’t. Anyway, there’s plenty of stuff to learn from, if you were genuinely interested in learning. I like this nifty new resource called “the Internet
You are apparently unaware of the origin of the terms. For someone who claims to have read a lot this admission is amazing. The original meaning of “right” referred to monarchists. Something that does not exist any more.jerry
December 30, 2022
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Andrew at 28, From the mid-1960s on, The Left organized a series of actions to attack the West in general and the normal family in particular. From contraception to abortion to 'alternative lifestyles' to decriminalizing marijuana in some places. To destroying natural male-female relationships and starting so-called No-Fault Divorce. Other things are happening right now.relatd
December 30, 2022
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"These are all lies about the Left." And the very first and last thing a leftist will never do, and will never do it unto the grave, is acknowledge any responsibility or hint at any accountability for the daily pile of sh*t that they promote. Never appearing to recognize is their calling card and they make sure to leave it on every doorstep, every time. Andrewasauber
December 30, 2022
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@25
Anybody can “invent” anything on the internet but I lived through the time period I’m referring to.
So what? And how do you know I didn't? For all you know we could be the same age -- or I could be older.PyrrhoManiac1
December 30, 2022
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PM1 at 25, You know what? Anybody can "invent" anything on the internet but I lived through the time period I'm referring to. For the record, I do not watch Fox News - ever. I am not a "follower" of Jordan Peterson, James Lindsay or Christopher Rufo. Or Pat Buchanan. I can recognize how fake some commentators are. They are little more than actors reading their lines, with the right clothes and haircuts. I would never buy or download anything from these people. Perhaps my Jewish friend could tell me how 'anti-Semitic' I am. But he can't anymore. He just passed.relatd
December 30, 2022
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@24
Real Cultural Marxism as practiced by The Left is this: Men are the enemy and women should hate them. Blacks are the victims and ALL White people alive today are responsible. A similar attempt to create Chinese victims failed to gain traction in the U.S. And the ongoing efforts to portray White, Heterosexuals Males as THE Number One Problem in the world today.
These are all lies about the Left. Right-wing grifters like Jordan Peterson, James Lindsay, and Christopher Rufo make a lot of money selling these lies to the gullible fools who get their worldview injected into their brains by downloading Fox News propaganda.
Don’t you dare try this ‘conspiracy theory’ thing again or I’m calling the ACLU.
Maybe you're uncomfortable to be hold that "cultural Marxism" is an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory, but that doesn't make it any less true.
And that little ‘history’ link was crap.
Martin Jay describes the historical process whereby right-wing anti-Semitic propaganda entered the mainstream right-wing, first with fringe extremists, then picked up by Patrick Buchanan and others. It's not "crap" -- it is historical fact.PyrrhoManiac1
December 30, 2022
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PM1 at 23, Pleez. Fiction. Real Cultural Marxism as practiced by The Left is this: Men are the enemy and women should hate them. Blacks are the victims and ALL White people alive today are responsible. A similar attempt to create Chinese victims failed to gain traction in the U.S. And the ongoing efforts to portray White, Heterosexuals Males as THE Number One Problem in the world today. Don't you dare try this 'conspiracy theory' thing again or I'm calling the ACLU. And that little 'history' link was crap.relatd
December 30, 2022
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@16
I’m talking about Cultural Marxism.
"Cultural Marxism" is an antisemitic conspiracy theory. (For the history, see here.)PyrrhoManiac1
December 30, 2022
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Kairosfocus, The thought experiment was actually tried in 2003 with a group of six macaques. Here's some background that also mentions the production of "VALENTINE. Cease to" as well as a similar concept proposed by Cicero in 45 B.C. That Time Someone Actually Tested the Infinite Monkey Theorem And Who Came Up With It https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEbX8EM3IEU "More monkeys, more typewriters!" -QQuerius
December 30, 2022
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SG, your confident manner, sharply worded dismissiveness of FSCO/I now seems to be ill founded. KFkairosfocus
December 30, 2022
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F/N: Further Wiki confessions, on the infinite monkeys theorem:
[Wikipedia confesses regarding the infinite monkeys theorem:] The theorem concerns a thought experiment which cannot be fully carried out in practice, since it is predicted to require prohibitive amounts of time and resources. Nonetheless, it has inspired efforts in finite random text generation. One computer program run by Dan Oliver of Scottsdale, Arizona, according to an article in The New Yorker, came up with a result on August 4, 2004: After the group had worked for 42,162,500,000 billion billion monkey-years, one of the "monkeys" typed,
"VALENTINE. Cease toIdor:eFLP0FRjWK78aXzVOwm)-‘;8.t"
The first 19 letters of this sequence can be found in "The Two Gentlemen of Verona". Other teams have reproduced 18 characters from "Timon of Athens", 17 from "Troilus and Cressida", and 16 from "Richard II".[26] A website entitled The Monkey Shakespeare Simulator, launched on July 1, 2003, contained a Java applet that simulated a large population of monkeys typing randomly, with the stated intention of seeing how long it takes the virtual monkeys to produce a complete Shakespearean play from beginning to end. For example, it produced this partial line from Henry IV, Part 2, reporting that it took "2,737,850 million billion billion billion monkey-years" to reach 24 matching characters:
RUMOUR. Open your ears; 9r"5j5&?OWTY Z0d...
[ACC: Dec 17, 2019. NB: Where, also, as this is a digital age, we will readily see that we can compose a description language and then create a string of yes/no questions to specify any reasonable object -- as say AutoCAD etc do. Thus, our seemingly simplistic discussion on bit strings *-*-*- . . . is in fact without loss of generality [WLOG].] [Comment: 16 - 24 ASCII characters is far short of the relevant thresholds, at best, a factor of about 1 in 10^100. Yes, the article goes on to note that "instead of simply generating random characters one restricts the generator to a meaningful vocabulary and conservatively following grammar rules, like using a context-free grammar, then a random document generated this way can even fool some humans." But, that is simply implicitly conceding that design makes a big difference to what can be done. ]
In short, contrary to the artful talking point tactics, the origin of functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information is a real and utterly unmet challenge for evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow travellers. Where, that is setting to one side self referential incoherence which is self falsifying. This frame just does not have the resources to account for mind much less sound conscience guided mind.kairosfocus
December 29, 2022
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4PS: Tomcods and dioxin: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1197296
The mechanistic basis of resistance of vertebrate populations to contaminants, including Atlantic tomcod from the Hudson River (HR) to polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), is unknown. HR tomcod exhibited variants in the aryl hydrocarbon receptor 2 (AHR2) that were nearly absent elsewhere. In ligand-binding assays, AHR2-1 protein (common in the HR) was impaired as compared to widespread AHR2-2 in binding TCDD (2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin) and in driving expression in reporter gene assays in AHR-deficient cells treated with TCDD or PCB126. We identified a six-base deletion in AHR2 as the basis of resistance and suggest that the HR population has undergone rapid evolution, probably due to contaminant exposure. This mechanistic basis of resistance in a vertebrate population provides evidence of evolutionary change due to selective pressure at a single locus.
I recall, this case was discussed here years ago, as was malaria. Notice, a consistent theme of information loss. What is needed is in the first instance, origin of 100 - 1,000 bases of genetic information and of underlying language as well as associated execution machinery integrated with a von Neumann kinematic self replicator and the metabolic process flow network at OoL. Similarly for body plans, we need 10 - 100+ million bases similarly integrated, dozens of times over. Nothing remotely close to that has been actually founded on empirical observation. We are still dealing with gross extrapolations and fallacious icons.kairosfocus
December 29, 2022
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SG, related is right. Meanwhile, all you have is an implied default when there is a world of evidence that a lot of immunity to chemicals is by breaks to genes. This is for key example the case with malaria drug resistance; where, the challenge of getting two coordinated point mutations makes it a difficult genetic challenge. KF PS, I do a little clipping, as examples: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3730913/
The humble fruit fly Drosophila melanogaster has been a key tool in unlocking the molecular basis of insecticide resistance, and early studies by James Crow and others have helped to establish Drosophila as a genetic model for resistance studies. Studies of DDT resistance in Drosophila have also typified arguments surrounding mono- vs. polygenic inheritance of insecticide resistance. In his pioneering review of insect resistance to chemicals, on page 232 Crow noted that “adult resistance to DDT is Drosophila is polygenic if my strain is typical” (Crow 1957). Dapkus and Merrell (1977) also found DDT resistance in their strain to involve all three major chromosomes. However, critically, their strain had been exposed to prolonged artificial selection with DDT in the laboratory since 1952 (25 years) and had thus become highly resistant with the probable selection of a large number of factors of minor effect (see discussion below). Subsequent mapping studies led Ogita (1960, 1961) and others to show that DDT resistance was associated with a single major factor on the left arm of chromosome II at map position 62–64 cM (Dapkus 1992). This discrepancy between mono- and polygenic resistance typifies early studies of insecticide resistance and illustrates the importance of looking at recently derived field strains, which show a single resistance factor on chromosome II, rather than relying on chronic selection of single strains in the laboratory, which tend to show polygenic resistance.
Similarly: https://academic.oup.com/genetics/article/170/4/1839/6060484?login=false
Anticoagulant compounds, i.e., derivatives of either 4-hydroxycoumarin (e.g., warfarin, bromadiolone) or indane-1,3-dione (e.g., diphacinone, chlorophacinone), have been in worldwide use as rodenticides for >50 years. These compounds inhibit blood coagulation by repression of the vitamin K reductase reaction (VKOR). Anticoagulant-resistant rodent populations have been reported from many countries and pose a considerable problem for pest control. Resistance is transmitted as an autosomal dominant trait although, until recently, the basic genetic mutation was unknown. Here, we report on the identification of eight different mutations in the VKORC1 gene in resistant laboratory strains of brown rats and house mice and in wild-caught brown rats from various locations in Europe with five of these mutations affecting only two amino acids (Tyr139Cys, Tyr139Ser, Tyr139Phe and Leu128Gln, Leu128Ser). By recombinant expression of VKORC1 constructs in HEK293 cells we demonstrate that mutations at Tyr139 confer resistance to warfarin at variable degrees while the other mutations, in addition, dramatically reduce VKOR activity. Our data strongly argue for at least seven independent mutation events in brown rats and two in mice. They suggest that mutations in VKORC1 are the genetic basis of anticoagulant resistance in wild populations of rodents, although the mutations alone do not explain all aspects of resistance that have been reported. We hypothesize that these mutations, apart from generating structural changes in the VKORC1 protein, may induce compensatory mechanisms to maintain blood clotting. Our findings provide the basis for a DNA-based field monitoring of anticoagulant resistance in rodents.
This illustrates the obvious point that it is far easier to drop and break a vase than it is to build one. Of course, as each location in a gene has four possible states, that is two bits, roughly speaking, issues of redundancies, correction and so on are onward. PPS, similarly, red hair shows the pattern. Wiki confesses:
The pigment pheomelanin gives red hair its distinctive color. Red hair has far more of the pigment pheomelanin than it has of the dark pigment eumelanin. The genetics of red hair appear to be associated with the melanocortin-1 receptor (MC1R), which is found on chromosome 16. In 1995, Valverde, et al. identified aleles on MC1R associated with red hair. The number of alleles linked to red hair has since been expanded by other authors, and these variants are now identified as the RHC alleles. Eighty percent of redheads have an MC1R gene variant within the RHC.[45][2] Red hair is also associated with fair skin color because the MC1R mutation also results in low concentrations of eumelanin throughout the body. The lower melanin concentration in skin confers the advantage that a sufficient concentration of important Vitamin D can be produced under low light conditions. However, when UV-radiation is strong (as in regions close to the equator) the lower concentration of melanin leads to several medical disadvantages, such as a higher risk of skin cancer. The MC1R variant gene that gives people red hair generally results in skin that is difficult or impossible to tan. Because of the natural tanning reaction to the sun's ultraviolet light and high amounts of pheomelanin in the skin, freckles are a common but not universal feature of red-haired people. Red hair can originate from several changes on the MC1R-gene. If one of these changes is present on both chromosomes then the respective individual is likely to have red hair. This type of inheritance is described as an autosomal recessive. Even if both parents do not have red hair themselves, both can be carriers for the gene and have a redheaded child. Genetic studies of dizygotic (fraternal) twins indicate that the MC1R gene is not solely responsible for the red hair phenotype; unidentified modifier genes exist, making variance in the MC1R gene necessary, but not sufficient, for red hair production.[46]
PPPS, blond hair: https://www.science.org/content/article/genetics-blond-hair
For all those brunettes wishing they were naturally blond, a small genetic change could have made all the difference. Scientists have found that replacing one of DNA's four letters at a key spot in the genome shifts a particular gene's activity and leads to fairer hair. Not only does the work provide a molecular basis for flaxen locks, but it also demonstrates how changes in segments of DNA that control genes, not just changes in genes themselves, are important to what an organism looks like. "It really is a nice story that pulls together and helps make sense of a lot of the biology that we have partially understood up to this point," says Richard Sturm, a molecular geneticist at the University of Queensland in Brisbane, Australia, who was not involved with the work. Because our appearance is so strongly influenced by the color of our skin and hair, geneticists have long sought to understand the genetic bases of these traits and when they evolved. Over the past 6 years, studies of genetic variation in thousands of people have linked at least eight DNA regions to blondness based on the fact that a certain DNA letter, or base, was found in people with that hair color but not in people with other hair colors. Some of those base changes, or single-nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs), were in genes involved in the production of pigments, such as melanin. Mutations in these genes typically change skin and hair color. Other SNPs lay outside genes but could be part of the regulatory DNA that helps control the function of genes nearby. Changes in that regulatory DNA could result in hair color but not skin color change, or vice versa, because regulatory DNA can change gene activity in just certain parts of the body.
And so forth.kairosfocus
December 29, 2022
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Relatd: You present no actual history about homosexuals. How the APA changed the classification for homosexuality in the DSM-II, and its removal in the DSM-III and subsequent editions.
Why should I. It is easily figured out with a little googling.
APA’s 1973 diagnostic revision was the beginning of the end of organized medicine’s official participation in the social stigmatization of homosexuality. Similar shifts gradually took place in the international mental health community as well. In 1990, the World Health Organization removed homosexuality per se from the International Classification of Diseases (ICD-10) [64]. As a consequence, debates about homosexuality gradually shifted away from medicine and psychiatry and into the moral and political realms as religious, governmental, military, media, and educational institutions were deprived of medical or scientific rationalization for discrimination.
So, it turns out that the original classification of homosexuality as a disease had more to do with pandering to cultural, political and religious pressure than it did to scientific evidence.Sir Giles
December 28, 2022
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PM1 at 12, I'm talking about Cultural Marxism. Classic Marxist Class Warfare as it is applied to groups. Example: Starting in the mid-1960s, Total Strangers began to create a type of warfare. It required a victim and an enemy. SO: Men, the eternal enemies class. Women, the eternal victims class. This war is ongoing, and fed by lies and bad/wrong laws.relatd
December 28, 2022
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SG at 14, You really don't get it, or pretend you don't. How about that teenage boy with something to prove who beat up another teenager for no apparent reason? I was that teenage boy who got beat up. My mother talked to the boy's mother and that's how things got handled. You present no actual history about homosexuals. How the APA changed the classification for homosexuality in the DSM-II, and its removal in the DSM-III and subsequent editions. Was that done using science? No, it was done by vote. Or how some teachers are going far, too far, from their responsibilities and are trying to help confused kids transition. It's crazy. They should be sued. ONLY the parents have the right to raise their kids as they see fit, not some self-proclaimed activist/total stranger butting in for "the cause." And perverse and pornographic books that are NOT age appropriate getting into the hands of kids who do not have the psychological maturity to understand them. Or how about 58 sexual perversions/gender options on Facebook? I don't treat anyone badly - gay or straight. I'm not perfect but I don't know or want to know, anyone's "orientation." If they tell me, fine. You seem to live in a world where you think gay people can't do what they want. They can and do. However, under the free exercise clause of the Constitution, people with sincerely held religious beliefs have the right to a legal defense when homosexuals ask for certain services. Such cases have gone to court. And by the way. When I help the homeless, I ask no questions like, are you gay or straight or religious or not, I just help them.relatd
December 28, 2022
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Relatd: I stand by my original comments.
Nobody can stop you from doing so, regardless of how ridiculous the comments are.
In the 1960s, public schools taught the R’s. Reading, Riting and ‘Rithmatic.
And chemistry, physics, biology, typing, physical education, health (AKA sex education), comparative religion, art, music, drama, political science, history, geography, geology, etc. In short, everything that makes a person a well-rounded human being.
Now, today, parents have to deal with their kids being exposed to sexual perversion.
Or, in other words, taught the reality that there are some kids that are sexually attracted to the same sex and some that identify as the opposite sex. And that regardless of what you think about this that they are entitled to be treated as equal members of society and treated with the same respect as everyone is entitled to.Sir Giles
December 28, 2022
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SG at 11, I stand by my original comments. Your attempt to divert is just that. In the 1960s, public schools taught the R's. Reading, Riting and 'Rithmatic. That's it. Now, today, parents have to deal with their kids being exposed to sexual perversion.relatd
December 28, 2022
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@10
What about atheism? That is the current indoctrination in the Marxist-Atheist school system.
If the K-12 school system in the US is supposedly indoctrinating kids into Marxism, it is by far the absolute worst system of indoctrination that has ever existed in human history. Just a complete and utter failure to indoctrinate. Why do I say that? Because every single one that I've met wants to get a good-paying job, and I haven't met any -- not one single person -- who wants to establish a worker's collective or strategize the overthrow of the capitalist mode of production. If they've been indoctrinated into anything, it's into believing that there is no alternative to capitalism. Sounds like a complete failure of "Marxism" to me -- I mean, what kind of Marxist doesn't believe there's an alternative to capitalism? If the K-12 system is even attempting to indoctrinate kids into Marxism, it must be run by the absolute worst morons to ever attempt indoctrinating anyone into anything in all of human history. Because it has been a colossal and absolute failure at getting student to believe that there's a workable alternative to capitalism, and that is the bare minimum of anything even resembling Marxism.PyrrhoManiac1
December 28, 2022
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Relatd: What about atheism? That is the current indoctrination in the Marxist-Atheist school system.
I don’t know what school system you are dealing with but I don’t see Marxist-atheist indoctrination. I see a system that encourages kids to question everything. If it has value and is consistent with the evidence, it will survive. If it is not, it will decline. The decline in religious belief is the result of critical thinking, not any Marxist conspiracy. The acceptance of LGBQ is the result of critical thinking. The lack of traction for ID is the result of critical thinking.Sir Giles
December 28, 2022
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SG at 8, So, this was never about "science." "Including the ethical and moral implications of indoctrination of children to one religious belief or another." What about atheism? That is the current indoctrination in the Marxist-Atheist school system. There are still people in the U.S. who admire atheist Communism as practiced in the Soviet Union. In the 1960s, the U.S. Government told us we were in "a struggle with Godless Communism." But, there are some who want to see Godless Communism established in the West. Not going to happen. I lived through most of the Cold War. Even as a boy I knew my odds of survival were zero. Russian ICBMs were going to strike at any time. I watched on TV as they tested the "Emergency Broadcasting System." We were told what to do if this was "an actual emergency." But I had a great time during the 1960s and so did my neighbors. I watched a B-52 fly over my head one day at altitude.relatd
December 28, 2022
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Kairosfocus @7, The beauty of science (and mathematics) is that it provides a framework for rigorous examination of evidence for those honestly willing to follow that path. However, their are hypocrites in science as well as in religion, politics, economics, business, and every other area of human involvement. The motivations for hypocrisy are powerful and pervasive. They include * Ideological priorities * Self-justification, and rationalization * Monetary rewards * Assurance of significance * Power and control * Sexual advantage What's there not to like? All one has to do is part with one's feeble intellectual and moral integrity. In this case and many others here, the underlying logic is that even though spontaneous perpetual self-organization has never been demonstrated, the motivations listed above completely flatten logic with a flurry of "musta" speculations woven together into a tapestry of convenient science fantasy. Even then, the narrative doesn't hold up under the constant bombardment of falsifying data and logic such as presented in comment @1. That's why I appreciate Dr. Tour's stock response with a simple "Ok, show me." -QQuerius
December 28, 2022
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KF: For example, pesticide immunity etc are well within the 500 bit threshold, as you know.
Really? Exactly how many bits is pesticide resistance in mice? Or the changes in bedbugs over the centuries? Or the changes seen in populations of stray dogs over the years? You make this claim without having a means of measuring FSCO/I, which boils down to, wow, that must be designed. Not exactly proof of anything other than observational bias.
The issue is how to get to insects etc, not how insects begin to resist insecticides
No, your challenge was to show examples of natural change that resulted in 500 bits of FSCI/I, which I have done. Your shifting of goal posts speaks sadly telling volumes on your inability to provide a relevant case.
Not to mention, on how our children are being indoctrinated through fallacious icons of evolution. KF
Our children are being taught to critically think about things. Including the ethical and moral implications of indoctrination of children to one religious belief or another.Sir Giles
December 28, 2022
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SG, the argument is correct. Just, the message is not what you want to hear. For example, pesticide immunity etc are well within the 500 bit threshold, as you know. That is an error of gross extrapolation on your advisors' part. The issue is how to get to insects etc, not how insects begin to resist insecticides. That you imagine such is a plausible answer speaks sadly telling volumes on your inability to provide a relevant case. Not to mention, on how our children are being indoctrinated through fallacious icons of evolution. KFkairosfocus
December 28, 2022
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KF, the flaws in your “trillions of examples” argument have been pointed out to you on multiple occasions. I don’t see the point in rehashing the statistical flaws that keep making after you have been corrected.
Now, provide an actually observed case where such FSCO/I has originated by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity as actually observed: [bedbug changes over the centuries, , pesticide immunity in mice, sea slugs incorporating DNA from their food into their DNA, stray dogs evolving more wolf like characteristics over multiple generations, numerous examples of antibiotic resistance].
Would you like me to continue? Now maybe you will answer a challenge, although I know you will simply obfuscate. Provide an actually observed case where such FSCO/I has originated by non-human design in biology: ____________.Sir Giles
December 28, 2022
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SG, you continue your supercilious dismissiveness. All you are doing is doubling down on ill informed dismissiveness. I give you a challenge, therefore: consider cases of functionally specific organisation starting with the text of your comment or a petroleum refinery etc that per some compact description language, are at or above 500 - 1,000 binary digits [think, y/n q's and a's] that specify configuration. This includes von Neumann's reported estimate that a kinematic self replicator requires 1,500+ bits. Now, provide an actually observed case where such FSCO/I has originated by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity as actually observed: ________. I confidently predict you cannot do so, but are blustering rhetorically to escape from the fact that there are trillions of actually observed cases by intelligently directed configuration and this is readily backed up through needle in haystack search challenge analysis. We have very good reason, to infer from Orgel-Wicken FSCO/I to design, and yes this includes the coded complex algorithms and execution machinery in the cell. KFkairosfocus
December 28, 2022
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SG at 3, Sometimes, you don't write well. Your poor presentation is showing here. ID shows, in a number of ways, by scientific observation, that the following is false: out of chaos, order. But you don't want anyone to understand that. Once the level of complexity in any living system exceeds a certain number, chance evolution fails as an explanation. The odds for unguided evolution drops to zero. That's what ID, the science, shows through observations that any scientist can confirm. And yes, when that level of complexity is observed, saying it poofed into the right order - by itself - is the wrong answer. Intelligent design is the right answer.relatd
December 27, 2022
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