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At Quora: Is it possible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that intelligence was required to create life?

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Josh Anderson writes:

Yes, it is. Here’s the question you should ask yourself: Is symbolic code something that blind, intelligence-free physical processes could create and use? Or is mind alone up to the task?

The legendary John Von Neumann did important work on self-replicating systems. A towering giant in the history of mathematics and pioneer in computer science, he was interested in describing machine-like systems that could build faithful copies of themselves.

Von Neumann soon recognized that it would require both hardware and software. Such a system had to work from a symbolic representation of itself. That is, it must have a kind of encoded picture of itself in some kind of memory.

Crucially, this abstract picture had to include a precise description of the very mechanisms needed to read and execute the code. Makes sense, right? To copy itself it has to have a blueprint to follow. And this blueprint has to include instructions for building the systems needed to decode and implement the code.

Here’s the remarkable thing: Life is a Von Neumann Replicator. Von Neumann was unwittingly describing the DNA based genetic system at the heart of life. And yet, he was doing so years before we knew about these systems.

The implications of this are profound. Think about how remarkable this is. It’s like having the blueprints and operating system for a computer stored on a drive in digital code that can only be read by the device itself. It’s the ultimate chicken and egg scenario.

How might something like this have come about? For a system to contain a symbolic representation of itself the actualization of precise mapping between two realms, the physical realm and an abstract symbolic realm.

In view here is a kind of translation, mechanisms that can move between encoded descriptions and material things being described. This requires a system of established correlations between stuff out here and information instantiated in a domain of symbols.

Here’s the crucial question: Is this something that can be achieved by chance, physical laws, or intelligence-free material processes? The answer is decidedly NO. What’s physical cannot work out the non-physical. Only a mind can create a true code. Only a mind can conceive of and manage abstract, symbolic realities. A symbolic system has to be invented. It cannot come about in any other way.

If you think something like this – mutually interdependent physical hardware and encoded software  can arise through unguided, foresight-less material forces acting over time, think again. If I were to ask you to think of something, anything that absolutely requires intelligence to bring about, you’d be hard pressed to think of a better example. It’s not just that no one understands how it could be done, it’s that we have every reason to believe that it is impossible in principle. No intelligence-free material processes could ever give you something like this.

But wait, how can we be so sure this feature of life was not forged by evolution, built up incrementally by the unseen hand of natural selection? What’s to say this is beyond the ability of evolution to create?

The question answers itself. In order for evolution to take place you have to have a self-replicating system in place. You don’t evolve to the kind of thing we’ve been describing. That is, necessarily, where you begin.

The DNA and the dizzyingly complex molecular machinery that it both uses and describes did not evolve into existence. This much is clear. Any suggestion that it did is not based on a scintilla of empirical evidence or any credible account of how it could have come about in this way.

The conclusion is clear: The unmistakable signature of mind is literally in every cell of every living thing on earth.

Watch a few seconds of this to remind yourself of the kind of mind-bending sophistication in view here:

Quora

Note that John von Neumann mathematically showed that the information content of the simplest self-replicating machine is about 1500 bits of information. This is a vast amount of information, since information bits are counted on a logarithmic scale, and it cannot be explained by any natural process, since it far exceeds the information content of the physical (non-living) universe. Therefore, since self-replicating organisms obviously exist on Earth, their origin must come from the only known source of this level of information – an intelligent mind of capability far beyond our mental ability – consistent with the biblical view of God.

Comments
Bornagain77: For Darwin, non-adaptive design categories, (such as Beauty), simply did not exist. When you really think about a statement such as this it gets more and more insidious. It implies a standard or criterion that is set by someone or someones. And who might that someone or someones be? Well, apparently, based on the comments of Bornagain77 and Relatd and others it is held to be the Christian God. Who, we are also told, is not subject to the same laws and restrictions and limitations as us humans. But this God can dictate not only what our moral and ethical behaviour should be but also, it seems our aesthetic and emotion behaviour as well. We cannot possibly even have a solid aesthetic or moral or emotional or ethical standard because we don't acknowledge that all these things HAVE to have come from our benevolent and loving God who created us and all the laws and standards that matter. Which means, of course that we cannot, without the risk of punishment: Love or desire anything that is not proscribed by God's rules and laws. Hope or yearn for anything that is not proscribed by God's rules and laws. Create or bring about anything that is not pre-approved by God's rules and laws. Be attracted to who we wish that is not approved by God's rules and laws. In other words: we are not allowed to exercise free will without the risk of punishment. You can do what you like but you just might burn in hell. Forever. For choosing to do something that isn't approved of. And that's free will? Really? Do what I say or spend eternity burning in agony? If you need the threat of hell to be a good person then you are just a bad person on a leash. You are not free. You are are not even a pet. You are a captive, morally, ethically, physically and spiritually. You dance to the master's tune or you suffer eternal damnation. What kind of a god creates intelligent beings that are given the choice to love him or be damned? Can anyone who is a parent get behind that standard? My child can make up his own mind but if he doesn't do what I say then he can rot forever in pain and agony. Who amongst us has ever said that to a child they brought into this world and loved and cherished and would give anything to protect and support. Which of you would actually cut off all contact with your child if they turned out to be homosexual? Anyone? Would you vow to never speak to them again because God told you that they are scum and evil and should not be even considered worthy of compassion? How many of you would choose to bend or adopt God's rules in your own situation? Because of love. What's more important: rules in a book or rules of your own heart?JVL
December 11, 2022
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Sir Giles, "I take exception is when people like BA77 and Relatd claim that non-Christian’s, agnostics or atheists cannot possibly find meaning in their lives every bit as real and comforting as theirs." I have not once in this thread commented specifically on agnostics or non-Christian's finding meaning in their lives. Since I deal with Darwinian atheists day in and day out, I have focused exclusively on Atheistic/Darwinian naturalists.,,, And I have merely pointed out, a few times now, the blatantly obvious fact that Atheistic Naturalists cannot possibly derive any real meaning for life in a worldview that denies the entire universe has any real meaning behind its existence. It ain't rocket science. You can't have real meaning for life in a worldview that insists the entire universe has no real meaning behind its existence. i.e. the universe can't give what it ain't got! The best you can possibly have, as an atheist, is an 'illusion' of meaning for life, but never any real meaning for life. And indeed that "illusion of meaning' is what atheists themselves have, inadvertently, admitted to in the following study,
Study: Atheists Find Meaning In Life By Inventing Fairy Tales – Richard Weikart March 29, 2018 Excerpt: However, there is a problem with this finding. The survey admitted the meaning that atheists and non-religious people found in their lives is entirely self-invented. According to the survey, they embraced the position: “Life is only meaningful if you provide the meaning yourself.” Thus, when religious people say non-religious people have no basis for finding meaning in life, and when non-religious people object, saying they do indeed find meaning in life, they are not talking about the same thing. If one can find meaning in life by creating one’s own meaning, then one is only “finding” the product of one’s own imagination. One has complete freedom to invent whatever meaning one wants. This makes “meaning” on par with myths and fairy tales. It may make the non-religious person feel good, but it has no objective existence. http://thefederalist.com/2018/03/29/study-atheists-find-meaning-life-inventing-fairy-tales/
Again, it ain't rocket science. Moreover this act of self-delusion on the part of atheists, of making up illusory meaning and purposes for their lives, apparently has an extremely limited beneficial effect for the atheist. As Professor Andrew Sims, former President of the Royal College of Psychiatrists, states, “The advantageous effect of religious belief and spirituality on mental and physical health is one of the best-kept secrets in psychiatry and medicine generally.”,,, “In the majority of studies, religious involvement is correlated with well-being, happiness and life satisfaction; hope and optimism; purpose and meaning in life;,,”
“I maintain that whatever else faith may be, it cannot be a delusion. The advantageous effect of religious belief and spirituality on mental and physical health is one of the best-kept secrets in psychiatry and medicine generally. If the findings of the huge volume of research on this topic had gone in the opposite direction and it had been found that religion damages your mental health, it would have been front-page news in every newspaper in the land.” - Professor Andrew Sims former President of the Royal College of Psychiatrists - Is Faith Delusion?: Why religion is good for your health - preface “In the majority of studies, religious involvement is correlated with well-being, happiness and life satisfaction; hope and optimism; purpose and meaning in life; higher self-esteem; better adaptation to bereavement; greater social support and less loneliness; lower rates of depression and faster recovery from depression; lower rates of suicide and fewer positive attitudes towards suicide; less anxiety; less psychosis and fewer psychotic tendencies; lower rates of alcohol and drug use and abuse; less delinquency and criminal activity; greater marital stability and satisfaction… We concluded that for the vast majority of people the apparent benefits of devout belief and practice probably outweigh the risks.” - Professor Andrew Sims former President of the Royal College of Psychiatrists - Is Faith Delusion?: Why religion is good for your health – page 100 https://books.google.com/books?id=PREdCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA100#v=onepage&q&f=false
In fact, in the following studies it was found that, “those middle-aged adults who go to church, synagogues, mosques or other houses of worship reduce their mortality risk by 55%.” and “the religiously affiliated lived 9.45 and 5.64 years longer, respectively, than the nonreligiously affiliated.”
Can attending church really help you live longer? This study says yes – June 1, 2017 Excerpt: Specifically, the study says those middle-aged adults who go to church, synagogues, mosques or other houses of worship reduce their mortality risk by 55%. The Plos One journal published the “Church Attendance, Allostatic Load and Mortality in Middle Aged Adults” study May 16. “For those who did not attend church at all, they were twice as likely to die prematurely than those who did who attended church at some point over the last year,” Bruce said. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/06/02/can-attending-church-really-help-you-live-longer-study-says-yes/364375001/ Study: Religiously affiliated people lived “9.45 and 5.64 years longer…” July 1, 2018 Excerpt: Self-reported religious service attendance has been linked with longevity. However, previous work has largely relied on self-report data and volunteer samples. Here, mention of a religious affiliation in obituaries was analyzed as an alternative measure of religiosity. In two samples (N = 505 from Des Moines, IA, and N = 1,096 from 42 U.S. cities), the religiously affiliated lived 9.45 and 5.64 years longer, respectively, than the nonreligiously affiliated. Additionally, social integration and volunteerism partially mediated the religion–longevity relation. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/study-religiously-affiliated-people-lived-religiously-affiliated-lived-9-45-and-5-64-years-longer/
To state the obvious, those are not minor differences in longevity between believers and non-believers. Thus, it is readily apparent that the Atheist's attempt to create illusory meaning and purposes for his life, minus belief in God and an afterlife, falls short in a rather dramatic fashion on both the mental and physical level. Frankly, just from a practical point of view, atheists ought to become Chriatians/Theists just so to have better mental health and a longer life in the here and now, regardless of the hereafter. I mean really, what have atheists got to lose save for the utter despair that is inherent in the nihilism of their atheism?
Francesca Battistelli – Beautiful, Beautiful (Video) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbCfyZHSQbE
bornagain77
December 11, 2022
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Sir Giles @
The only time I take exception is when people like BA77 and Relatd claim that (...) atheists cannot possibly find meaning in their lives every bit as real and comforting as theirs.
To be clear, do we agree that, the meaning atheists find in their lives, does not come from their belief that they will end up as fertilizer? A reminder:
Ori: the belief that one will end up as fertilizer does not add meaning to one’s life.
Sir Giles: I don’t think anyone is suggesting that it does.
Origenes
December 11, 2022
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Caspian&79, I agree with JVL in that I believe that you have captured the Christian view. And for many Christians, this belief is very comforting and I wouldn’t try to argue them out if it. The only time I take exception is when people like BA77 and Relatd claim that non-Christian’s, agnostics or atheists cannot possibly find meaning in their lives every bit as real and comforting as theirs.Sir Giles
December 11, 2022
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Caspian #79: I think you've summarised the Christian world view well. And I think you've created good, quick points to the major arguments and justifications for that view. While I do not share your opinion of the importance or strength of the Biblical message I appreciate you're being clear about it. You've seen how easy it is for people 'on your side' to denigrate and discount those who disagree with them. You tend to not participate in many discussions following your posts. I would be interested to hear if you hold some of the same sentiments as your fellow Christian IDests who post here.JVL
December 11, 2022
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Or Marx was right and religion is the "opium of the people", providing hope against hope and anesthetizing them against the pain of facing what is the bleak alternative of "Life's a bitch and then you die!"Seversky
December 11, 2022
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In response to VL @18 and CD @ 15 & 40: In this discussion about human significance, it's important to distinguish between a person finding significance through relationships, vocation, volunteering to help a cause, etc. and an ultimate significance, if I may call it that, that is rooted in something beyond our human activities and belief system. For the former definition, you would be right to say that people of any race, culture and religion could find this type of significance, and many do so. For the latter definition of significance, one cannot attain this by anything we do -- it's a significance that we're born with -- it's rooted in being made in the image of God, rather than being the result of mindless forces. It's a significance that we have because we're endowed with an immortal soul, rather than being just a collection of atoms. The design evidence we see in our cells shows that we're more than biomolecules that think. Our beings are consistent with the biblical view that we were made for a purpose (and this purpose is shared with us in the Bible, but I'll not fully develop it now). This significance is inconsistent with the materialistic worldview that says that nothing exists beyond the spacetime of our physical universe. This is why I said about us @12, "If designed, then we are significant, not an accidental outgrowth of natural forces." This isn't an exclusive claim of a religion, it's a logical consequence of a transcendental worldview vs. a materialistic worldview (or, supernaturalism vs. naturalism). The biblical message of God and humanity adds to what God says about our significance, purpose and destiny.Caspian
December 11, 2022
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That is an incredibly narrow, parochial statement. ... Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists being the major religions. I agree except left out of that list philosophical materialism. Which in many people 'inspires' (i.e. "enlivens the spirit") evangelism as intense as any at the same time denying that which has been enlivened. Plus promulgating 'hope' in the inevitability of being correct, that at the end, the individual is annihilated. Which to the majority on the planet is a really weird kind of hope, a weird religion. One tried for many years by yours truly. What I think doesn’t matter. ...It appears you don’t want to have a discussion. Oh well (head smack) No, existing as a living being is what provides a foundation for meaning and purpose to life. However, some would say that returning one’s physical components back to the earth to nurture more life does add an element of meaning to death. Oh. So the simple philosphical belief "I exist" can be very profound. Deep enough to drive some to searching for the source of humanity's seeming unhappiness, suffering and metaphysical dread. Shallow enough to drive other people to commit crime and unspeakable atrocity. There is nothing like "I exist" combined with "I'm terrified of my precarious existence" that could as effectively drive a Slavic dictator to commit genocide against a neighboring much smaller Slavic nation as currently plays out.groovamos
December 11, 2022
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CD: the kid’s mantel next to your dog, you are going to end up as fertilizer one way or the other–that’s the one irrefutable fact that we know happens when we die….
Unless you are Jesus or Lazarus.Sir Giles
December 11, 2022
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What I don't understand is how "meaning" is only meaningful if it's accomplishing someone else's purpose. Christians make it sound like something profound and fulfilling to be essentially bit-part players in what amounts to their Creator's vast reality show. They don't even know what that purpose is.Seversky
December 11, 2022
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Origenes/67 Unless you are cremated and put in a jar on the kid's mantel next to your dog, you are going to end up as fertilizer one way or the other--that's the one irrefutable fact that we know happens when we die....chuckdarwin
December 11, 2022
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Origenes writes at 73, "You keep pointing out an experience of meaning independent from worldview/religion." Not at all. Everyone’s understanding of the source of the meaning of life comes from my some philosophical perspective which, religious or not, contains some foundational assumptions. I understand that there are a variety of philosophical/religious perspectives on this topic, all of which have foundational assumptions. It is absolutely true that one’s “worldview/religion” influences the experience of meaning. The question that started this discussion was whether one view, a Biblical one, is the only one that can truly provide meaning. And my comment about death was directly in response to your comments about becoming fertilizer, so I don’t see how that it off-topic.Viola Lee
December 11, 2022
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Viola Lee
No, existing as a living being is what provides a foundation for meaning and purpose to life.
You keep pointing out an experience of meaning independent from worldview/religion. But this is not what's being discussed. We are discussing the influence of worldview/religion on the experience of the meaning of life.
... meaning of death
Also off-topic.Origenes
December 11, 2022
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At 67, Origenes says, "the belief that one will end up as fertilizer does not add meaning to one’s life. I reluctantly accept that for some it does not in any way reduce any meaning to their life. However, be that as it may, I claim that it does not add intrinsic meaning to anyone’s life." No, existing as a living being is what provides a foundation for meaning and purpose to life. However, some would say that returning one's physical components back to the earth to nurture more life does add an element of meaning to death.Viola Lee
December 11, 2022
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Origenes: To put it succinctly: the belief that one will end up as fertilizer does not add meaning to one’s life. I reluctantly accept that for some it does not in any way reduce any meaning to their life. However, be that as it may, I stick to my claim that it does not add intrinsic meaning to anyone’s life. Can we engage in a minor 'what if' with your indulgence? What if you find out, just before you die, that there is no god, no afterlife, no heaven. Just supposing here. Would you think that your whole life of being nice to people, treating people with respect (I am making some assumptions here), wanting to do good . . . would all that have been a waste because you weren't going to heaven as a reward? What should motivate good and compassionate behaviour? Being told what to do or treating others the way you'd like to be treated? Do you act out of compassion or because you're going to get something out of it?JVL
December 11, 2022
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Origenes: However, be that as it may, I stick to my claim that it does not add intrinsic meaning to anyone’s life.
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that it does. But I think it can provide a driving force to work hard to enhance the meaning to the life that you lead.Sir Giles
December 11, 2022
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Es58: translation: fingers in ears, eyes shut, reciting: la la la … Am I to take it that you agree with Bornagain77 in that only Christians can have any claim to understanding and having a basis for truth, beauty, compassion, love, fairness, etc? That amongst the 8 billion people who are alive now and all the millions who have already lived and died that only Christians can truly understand what meaning is? Is that correct?JVL
December 11, 2022
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es58: Scroll, scroll, scroll,… translation: fingers in ears, eyes shut, reciting: la la la …
Nope. Just an accurate description of what most people do when they come upon a BA77 comment.Sir Giles
December 11, 2022
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To put it succinctly: the belief that one will end up as fertilizer does not add meaning to one's life. I reluctantly accept that for some it does not in any way reduce any meaning to their life. However, be that as it may, I claim that it does not add intrinsic meaning to anyone's life.Origenes
December 11, 2022
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Sir GilesDecember 11, 2022 at 10:14 am Scroll, scroll, scroll,... translation: fingers in ears, eyes shut, reciting: la la la ...es58
December 11, 2022
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re 63 to SG. Origenes is not just suggesting that, he is stating it, it seems to me, as a necessary fact: without a belief in an afterlife that you can’t have meaning and hope in the life you are leading.Viola Lee
December 11, 2022
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Well, we disagree at a foundational level, Origenes. I have intrinsic meaning that comes from the nature of my existence, and the fact that I will come to an end someday doesn't negate that. We just have different philosophical perspectives. I hear what you say about something that is true for you, but it is not necessarily true. We probably have to just leave it at that.Viola Lee
December 11, 2022
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Origenes@61, are you suggesting that without a belief in an afterlife that you can’t have meaning and hope in the life you are leading? I would argue that you are more likely to work hard at bringing meaning and hope to your life if you are not relying on an afterlife as a plan B. And if it turns out that there is an afterlife, that is just icing on the cake.Sir Giles
December 11, 2022
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Bornagain77: For Darwin, non-adaptive design categories, (such as Beauty), simply did not exist You live in an arid and dry land where only the select few are allowed to even contemplate the meaning of beauty or love or purpose. Outside of your alabaster citadel with it's ramparts and meter thick walls all the non-believers are having parties, singing, playing music, making love, laughing, kidding around, getting into punchups, having an argument with their spouse, making fun of their neighbours . . . having a normal, human life. You keep believing what you believe and not letting most of us into the inner sanctum. I'm happy on the outside with the atheists, the gays, the lesbians, the non-Republicans, the real people. You know, the ones that generate most of the music and art and theatre and dance and joy in the world. All you need is love, too bad you've run out.JVL
December 11, 2022
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Viola Lee
That is not what “intrinsic” means either.
Well of course not. Where do I claim that it does?
My life has intrinsic meaning in that I manifest my nature in my existence. My existence, and its intrinsic meaning and value, does not have to go on forever, or be in respect to something external to myself, to exist.
That is good to hear. However, my simple point is that your experience of intrinsic meaning, does not, and cannot, come from a concept that involves ending up as fertilizer, or as a faint vibration in the “eternal ocean”. Sure you can have a happy encounter with the family and experience ‘meaning’, but it is in spite of such a concept. IOW the concept does not confer meaning to your life; it does nothing to further your experience of meaning. That is the simple point I try to make here.Origenes
December 11, 2022
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December 11, 2022
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Of supplemental note to posts 43 and 44, "For Darwin, non-adaptive design categories, (such as Beauty), simply did not exist."
The Role of Non-Adaptive Design Doctrine in Evolutionary Thought by Cornelius Hunter - April 2021 Introduction Excerpt: In formulating this argument, Darwin was well aware that he had made a significant theological commitment. He had firmly staked his theory to the utilitarian doctrine that God would design a world of perfect adaptation. For Darwin, non-adaptive design categories simply did not exist. God would not design for purposes such as beauty, variety, harmony and order. If this were not so, it would deal a fatal blow to his theory: "The foregoing remarks lead me to say a few words on the protest lately made by some naturalists, against the utilitarian doctrine that every detail of structure has been produced for the good of its possessor. They believe that very many structures have been created for beauty in the eyes of man, or for mere variety. This doctrine, if true, would be absolutely fatal to my theory." (Darwin 1859, p. 199) Here, Darwin makes it clear that he requires a strictly utilitarian, adaptive, creation/design doctrine. The non-adaptive explanations that natural theologians had advanced—such as that structures have been created for beauty in the eyes of man, for mere variety, or to delight man or the Creator (this last item was added in the sixth edition)—would be “absolutely fatal” to Darwin’s theory. In this passage Darwin makes clear that his theory is contingent on a theological claim about the mode of creation. https://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/12/4/282/htm
As well, it is now found that seeing beautiful things increases belief in God,
Experiencing Awe Increases Belief in the Supernatural - November 25, 2013 Excerpt: Valdesolo and his colleague Jesse Graham of the University of Southern California tested this prediction by having participants watch awe-inspiring scenes from BBC’s Planet Earth documentary series or neutral video clips from a news interview. Afterward, the participants were asked how much awe they felt while watching the video, and whether they believed that worldly events unfold according to some god’s or other non-human entity’s plan. Overall, participants who had watched the awe-inspiring video tended to believe more in supernatural control, and were more likely to believe in God when compared with the news-watching group.,,, https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/releases/experiencing-awe-increases-belief-in-the-supernatural.html
And in the interest of increasing belief in the very real God who is behind such very real beauty,,,
Murmuration of starlings - video https://aeon.co/videos/one-of-the-most-wondrous-markers-of-the-end-of-the-day-is-a-murmuration-of-starlings Dance of The Spirits, Full HD, real-time Aurora Footage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ezobpz55EEY The Mountain - Inspirational timelapse video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rk6_hdRtJOE David Gallo: Underwater astonishments - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVvn8dpSAt0
Verse:
Job 12: 7-10 “But ask the animals, and they will teach you, or the birds in the sky, and they will tell you; or speak to the earth, and it will teach you, or let the fish in the sea inform you. Which of all these does not know that the hand of the Lord has done this? In his hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind. Francesca Battistelli - Beautiful, Beautiful (Video) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbCfyZHSQbE
bornagain77
December 11, 2022
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KF: I actually have a lot of good Christian friends who don’t look down on every non-Christian on the planet. They understand that there are other points of view. They love their non-Christian friends and don’t tell them that their non-Christian love is meaningless and has no basis in reality. They don’t think they are better than everyone else.
And, much to BA77’s horror, there are many Christian’s who are married to people of different religions, and no religion. I happen to be in one of those marriages. Forty years and counting. BA77 would never even consider dating a non-Christian. Sad, because by having this superior and hateful attitude, he is missing out on the company of many wonderful people.Sir Giles
December 11, 2022
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@43,44: scroll, scroll, scroll. If BA77 keeps commenting I am going to have to start using my left thumb to prevent my right thumb from getting too bulked up.Sir Giles
December 11, 2022
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JVL: You’ve spent decades on this planet and you don’t understand billions of other human beings and what they value then I think you should spend some time getting to know something about the world you live in. You should learn how to see things from other people’s point of view.
An excellent point. About twenty years ago I started doing extensive world travel for work. This travel, and my interactions with the people living there, made me aware that the stereotypes I didn’t even know I held were incorrect.Sir Giles
December 11, 2022
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