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At Quora: Is it possible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that intelligence was required to create life?

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Josh Anderson writes:

Yes, it is. Here’s the question you should ask yourself: Is symbolic code something that blind, intelligence-free physical processes could create and use? Or is mind alone up to the task?

The legendary John Von Neumann did important work on self-replicating systems. A towering giant in the history of mathematics and pioneer in computer science, he was interested in describing machine-like systems that could build faithful copies of themselves.

Von Neumann soon recognized that it would require both hardware and software. Such a system had to work from a symbolic representation of itself. That is, it must have a kind of encoded picture of itself in some kind of memory.

Crucially, this abstract picture had to include a precise description of the very mechanisms needed to read and execute the code. Makes sense, right? To copy itself it has to have a blueprint to follow. And this blueprint has to include instructions for building the systems needed to decode and implement the code.

Here’s the remarkable thing: Life is a Von Neumann Replicator. Von Neumann was unwittingly describing the DNA based genetic system at the heart of life. And yet, he was doing so years before we knew about these systems.

The implications of this are profound. Think about how remarkable this is. It’s like having the blueprints and operating system for a computer stored on a drive in digital code that can only be read by the device itself. It’s the ultimate chicken and egg scenario.

How might something like this have come about? For a system to contain a symbolic representation of itself the actualization of precise mapping between two realms, the physical realm and an abstract symbolic realm.

In view here is a kind of translation, mechanisms that can move between encoded descriptions and material things being described. This requires a system of established correlations between stuff out here and information instantiated in a domain of symbols.

Here’s the crucial question: Is this something that can be achieved by chance, physical laws, or intelligence-free material processes? The answer is decidedly NO. What’s physical cannot work out the non-physical. Only a mind can create a true code. Only a mind can conceive of and manage abstract, symbolic realities. A symbolic system has to be invented. It cannot come about in any other way.

If you think something like this – mutually interdependent physical hardware and encoded software  can arise through unguided, foresight-less material forces acting over time, think again. If I were to ask you to think of something, anything that absolutely requires intelligence to bring about, you’d be hard pressed to think of a better example. It’s not just that no one understands how it could be done, it’s that we have every reason to believe that it is impossible in principle. No intelligence-free material processes could ever give you something like this.

But wait, how can we be so sure this feature of life was not forged by evolution, built up incrementally by the unseen hand of natural selection? What’s to say this is beyond the ability of evolution to create?

The question answers itself. In order for evolution to take place you have to have a self-replicating system in place. You don’t evolve to the kind of thing we’ve been describing. That is, necessarily, where you begin.

The DNA and the dizzyingly complex molecular machinery that it both uses and describes did not evolve into existence. This much is clear. Any suggestion that it did is not based on a scintilla of empirical evidence or any credible account of how it could have come about in this way.

The conclusion is clear: The unmistakable signature of mind is literally in every cell of every living thing on earth.

Watch a few seconds of this to remind yourself of the kind of mind-bending sophistication in view here:

Quora

Note that John von Neumann mathematically showed that the information content of the simplest self-replicating machine is about 1500 bits of information. This is a vast amount of information, since information bits are counted on a logarithmic scale, and it cannot be explained by any natural process, since it far exceeds the information content of the physical (non-living) universe. Therefore, since self-replicating organisms obviously exist on Earth, their origin must come from the only known source of this level of information – an intelligent mind of capability far beyond our mental ability – consistent with the biblical view of God.

Comments
VL at 23, That wasn't your first answer. Please don't accuse and call people names based on an assumption. A guess. If I'm not clear then ask for some clarification instead of immediately jumping to a conclusion, OK? That makes for a discussion. What I think doesn't matter. Tell me exactly where and how you find meaning in your life.relatd
December 10, 2022
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Relatd: Where do people find significance, or hope or meaning, outside of a Biblical worldview?
If a person is incapable of finding hope, significance and meaning independent of a biblical world view then the hope, significance and meaning they find with a biblical world view is just an illusion.Sir Giles
December 10, 2022
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My answer was that people with non-Biblical religious beliefs can find significance, hope, and meaning in their lives. Do you think that is true?Viola Lee
December 10, 2022
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Martin-r @3
I as an engineer, i think, that one of the best arguments for designed cell is the capability of detecting errors/ damage … and then to repair it.
The following story about repair is absolutely mindblowing:
According to the usual comparison, it’s as if you had to pack 39 km of extremely thin thread into a tennis ball. Moreover, this thread is divided into 46 pieces (individual chromosomes) averaging, in our tennis-ball analogy, over 0.8 km long. Can it be at all possible not only to pack the chromosomes into the nucleus, but also to keep them from becoming hopelessly entangled? All we can say currently is that we know some of the players addressing the problem. For example, there are enzymes called “topoisomerases” whose task is to help manage the spatial organization of chromosomes. Demonstrating a spatial insight and dexterity that might amaze those of us who have struggled to sort out tangled masses of thread, these enzymes manage to make just the right local cuts to the strands in order to relieve strain, allow necessary movement of genes or regions of the chromosome, and prevent a hopeless mass of knots. Some topoisomerases cut just one strand of the double helix, allow it to wind or unwind around the other strand, and then reconnect the severed ends. This alters the supercoiling of the DNA. Other topoisomerases cut both strands, pass a loop of the chromosome through the gap thus created, and then seal the gap again. (Imagine trying this with miles of string crammed into a tennis ball) — Talbott
How does it work? Incomprehensible!Origenes
December 10, 2022
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VL at 20, I asked a question. You went into Accusation Mode. You have no interest in discussing things or asking me questions like "Are you are tribal religionist out to demean people?" Don't assume anything, OK?relatd
December 10, 2022
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I did answer: through other non-Biblical religious beliefs, as well as non-religious beliefs. Obviously, billions of such people find significance, hope, and meaning in their lives. Demean means "to lower in character, status, or reputation" or "to lower in dignity, honor, or standing". That is what you are doing when you imply that non-Biblical believes can'd find significance, hope and meaning , but Biblical believers can: you are elevating your religion and lowering all others. I think demean is an appropiate word.Viola Lee
December 10, 2022
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VL at 18, Instead of accusing me of something, answer the question. Oh, I demean people? Give me a break.relatd
December 10, 2022
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Relatd writes, "Where do people find significance, or hope or meaning, outside of a Biblical worldview?" That is an incredibly narrow, parochial statement. It's one thing to be attached attached to your religious view, and believe it brings you significance, hope, and meaning. It's another to thing that your religious view is the only possible way for people to find significance, hope, and meaning in their life. Leaving aside the non-religious such as myself, who have no problem finding significance, hope, and meaning in our lives, there are billions of people of non-Biblical religions who also find significance, hope, and meaning in their lives through their religious beliefs: Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists being the major religions. I don’t see how you can demean so many of your fellow human beings. It’s a sad commentary on the divisiveness fostered by tribal religious beliefs.Viola Lee
December 10, 2022
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Biologists who subscribe to the concept of Darwinian evolution have no need of such a belief
That’s why Darwinian Evolution and punctuated equilibrium are self refuting. Things must happen simultaneously if they are to be meaningful in Darwinian Evolution or else the ecology is destroyed. So what actually happens is that Darwinian processes only produce trivial changes that cannot add up to anything in the Evolution debate. They may be important for adaptation but not Evolution. We call the science that studies these changes, genetics. ID completely accepts modern genetics. So ID accepts Darwinian processes because while they cannot produce anything of consequence for Evolution, they are important for nearly all species at certain times. That’s why Darwin’s finches are excellent for ID’s mascots.     Let’s go finches. jerry
December 10, 2022
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CD at 15, Where do people find significance, or hope or meaning, outside of a Biblical worldview?relatd
December 10, 2022
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Caspian/12 Surely you are not implying that humans cannot find significance (or hope or meaning) without subscribing to a biblical “worldview?”chuckdarwin
December 10, 2022
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"The biblical account of our origin and the purpose of our existence offers us hope. Such is the “good news of great joy” announced at the first Christmas." It's Hope for the hopeless. Even for stubborn hopeless UD trolls. Andrewasauber
December 9, 2022
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Caspian at 12, Exactly right.relatd
December 9, 2022
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As often happens, the comments ignore the main point of the post. Taking it back to Seversky@1, who wrote: "Human beings are made of around 30 trillion little self-replicating machines or cells. If the existence of all the cells in a human being cannot be accounted for by natural processes then we must all have been designed?" I'll answer in the affirmative. We are designed, and by a designer that must be transcendent to this universe - consistent with God. If designed, then we are significant, not an accidental outgrowth of natural forces, like erosion of a mountainside. The biblical account of our origin and the purpose of our existence offers us hope. Such is the "good news of great joy" announced at the first Christmas.Caspian
December 9, 2022
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PM1: Ah, got to love UD: if you disagree with someone else’s description of your beliefs, it’s you who’s wrong!
It’s much easier to dispute their claims that way.Sir Giles
December 9, 2022
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@9
but you guys ARE wrong. That is a fact.
It's one thing to say that our beliefs are false; it's quite something else to say that we're mistaken about what our beliefs are.PyrrhoManiac1
December 9, 2022
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PM, but you guys ARE wrong. That is a fact.martin_r
December 9, 2022
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PM1/6 That's one of the least of their annoying habits....chuckdarwin
December 9, 2022
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PM1 at 6, Both sides can't be right.relatd
December 9, 2022
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@5
you are wrong. But it does not surprise me. You people don’t even understand what you have to believe in … and how high your level of faith has to be :)))))
Ah, got to love UD: if you disagree with someone else's description of your beliefs, it's you who's wrong!PyrrhoManiac1
December 9, 2022
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Alan Fox @4 you are wrong. But it does not surprise me. You people don't even understand what you have to believe in ... and how high your level of faith has to be :)))))martin_r
December 9, 2022
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If you are a Darwinist, you have to believe, that these damage sensing and repair mechanisms emerged at the same moment...
This is wrong. Biologists who subscribe to the concept of Darwinian evolution have no need of such a belief.Alan Fox
December 9, 2022
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the complexity, self-replicating molecules, codes, ... yes, we heard that before ... of course, this is a good argument, no rational person can deny it ... but let's don't forget, we are not talking to rational persons ... Darwinists can ignore and 'debunk' almost everything ... I as an engineer, i think, that one of the best arguments for designed cell is the capability of detecting errors/ damage ... and then to repair it. Inside the cell, everything gets repaired. From cell membrane to DNA molecule. The moment all the damage sensing and repair machinery was discovered, Darwinism was falsified and creation confirmed. These features are fundamental for life. If things don't get repaired = cancer = no life = no 'evolution'. If you are a Darwinist, you have to believe, that these damage sensing and repair mechanisms emerged at the same moment, because the damage sensing triggers the repair machinery ... as a Darwinist, you also have to believe, that this damage sensing/repair mechanisms evolved instantly, in the beginning of "whatever it was" ... otherwise, there won't be any life or 'evolution' ... as a Darwinist, you have to believe in very absurd things ... Here is a very nice DNA Damage and Repair animation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceFr0xTMV5kmartin_r
December 9, 2022
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Seversky at 1, It is the only reasonable conclusion. ID research has found great levels of complexity in living things that natural/evolutionary processes could not have stumbled on, regardless of the amount of time available. Chaos cannot order itself. Order creates order. Intelligence creates order.relatd
December 8, 2022
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Human beings are made of around 30 trillion little self-replicating machines or cells. If the existence of all the cells in a human being cannot be accounted for by natural processes then we must all have been designed?Seversky
December 8, 2022
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