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At Smithsonian: Fish do feel pain

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From Ferris Jabr at Smithsonian: It’s Official: Fish Feel Pain:

Moreover, the notion that fish do not have the cerebral complexity to feel pain is decidedly antiquated. Scientists agree that most, if not all, vertebrates (as well as some invertebrates) are conscious and that a cerebral cortex as swollen as our own is not a prerequisite for a subjective experience of the world. The planet contains a multitude of brains, dense and spongy, globular and elongated, as small as poppy seeds and as large as watermelons; different animal lineages have independently conjured similar mental abilities from very different neural machines. A mind does not have to be human to suffer. More.

Post-March for Life, we are all thinking the same thing, aren’t we? Live dismemberment as a form of death for young humans?

Cut the air with a knife…

See also: 2018 March for Life in Washington, DC: 45th annual response to the 1973 Abortion on Demand US Supreme Court Decision. kairosfocus: We have someone on the ground from the UD family and will be giving updates as we get them across the day.

and

Furry, feathery, and finny animals speak their minds

31 Replies to “At Smithsonian: Fish do feel pain

  1. 1
    ET says:

    It was my understanding that the saying was that fish don’t feel the pain of the hook through the lip because there weren’t any nerve endings there. I never knew there was a claim that fish don’t feel pain.

  2. 2
    FourFaces says:

    Sure. And the thermostat in my room feels the temperature too. My computer also feels when I type on the keyboard or move the mouse. Right.

    My point is that there is no conscious feeling or seeing or hearing without a spirit, a million materialists screaming and jumping up and down notwithstanding. If they can show that the fish has a spirit, then they got something. Otherwise, they’re just spewing pseudoscience.

  3. 3
    polistra says:

    @ET: Both claims are common.

    The claim about the mouth has been physically disproved by neurological experiments:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691351/

    “Electrophysiological recordings from trigeminal nerves identified polymodal nociceptors on the head of the trout with physiological properties similar to those described in higher vertebrates. … In higher vertebrates nociceptive nerves are either A-delta or C fibres with C fibres being the predominating fibre type. However, in the rainbow trout A-delta fibres were most common, and this offers insights into the evolution of nociceptive systems. Administration of noxious substances to the lips of the trout affected both the physiology and the behaviour of the animal and resulted in a significant increase in opercular beat rate and the time taken to resume feeding, as well as anomalous behaviours. ”

    Note the speedup of gills, and the ‘anomalous behaviors’, which imply an emotional response.

  4. 4
    ET says:

    FourFaces- Then how do you explain that one pig came to the rescue of another pig that was about to be butchered?

    https://5hotnews.com/2018/01/12/video-of-the-rescue-of-the-pig-another-pig-from-the-butchers-knife-has-conquered-the-media/

  5. 5
    ET says:

    Thank you polistra.

  6. 6
    FourFaces says:

    ET @4, I can write a computer video game with behaving entities that that do the same thing to one another. Now, if the pig started writing poetry, I would begin to have second thoughts.

  7. 7
    ET says:

    FourFaces- your computer game traces back to YOU. Where do you get your “there is no conscious feeling or seeing or hearing without a spirit” implying other animals don’t have one?

    How much time have you spent in the woods/ wild observing animals and their behaviors?

  8. 8
    FourFaces says:

    ET, I don’t need to go in the woods. I can observe my pets. My dog, especially, behaves as if it were conscious. Then I’m reminded that my dog’s behavior could conceivably be emulated in a machine. Projecting consciousness onto animals is no different than projecting consciousness onto machines. In fact, many people felt sorry for a robotic dog created by Boston Dynamics when the “dog” was kicked by a human and it tried its best to maintain its balance as a normal animal would.

  9. 9
    ET says:

    FourFaces, your dog feels pain. It is very conscious of what is happening/ happened to cause that pain. Dogs become happy and are quite conscious of what makes them happy. They also get sad and are quite conscious of what makes them sad.

    Did that robotic dog yelp, become injured and whimper away when it was kicked? Did it find some place to sulk away? Did it try to connect its actions to the punishment?

    What makes you think that animals don’t have a spirit? I would think that ALL of God’s Creatures would be such endowed.

  10. 10
    FourFaces says:

    ET, as a Christian, I believe that all animals were programmed genetically by God to behave in certain ways while allowing for some limited variability. When I see my dog behave intelligently and emotionally, I attribute it to God’s wisdom and love.

    Since I believe that God is a good God, it seems insulting to me and God that he would create conscious creatures that mostly suffer, animals that are preyed on or that prey on one another. God did not die on the cross for animals but for us, humans.

    And yes, that robotic dog is just the beginning. Programming them to behave as if they feel pain when hurt is a relatively simple thing to do. We will see intelligent machines in our lifetime that show intense emotional behavior but that are nevertheless not conscious.

  11. 11
    ET says:

    FourFaces:

    Since I believe that God is a good God, it seems insulting to me and God that he would create conscious creatures that mostly suffer, animals that are preyed on or that prey on one another.

    You just described humanity throughout the ages. Nicely done.

  12. 12
    FourFaces says:

    @11, The point, which you apparently did not get, is that humanity is given a chance to obtain eternal life. Why would God create conscious animals to just suffer with no chance of salvation? It is just as easy for him to create unconscious animals and program their behavioral repertoire in their DNA. You belief that they are conscious is of no consequence.

  13. 13
    ET says:

    FourFaces:

    Why would God create conscious animals to just suffer with no chance of salvation?

    Sounds like a straw man.

    You belief that they are conscious is of no consequence.

    Your belief they aren’t conscious, despite all evidence to the contrary, is meaningless.

  14. 14
    FourFaces says:

    @13,

    There is no evidence. There is only your strong desire to anthropomorphize animals.

  15. 15
    ET says:

    There is plenty of evidence. Your willful ignorance is neither an argument nor a refutation.

  16. 16
    FourFaces says:

    ET, what is your scientific method for detecting consciousness in an organism? Never mind. I know you don’t have any.

  17. 17
    ET says:

    Observation and testing, just like in the OP. What do you have that isn’t a hand wave flail? There isn’t anything in the Bible that supports your claim. So what do you have?

  18. 18
    FourFaces says:

    Beauty is a spiritual non-physical concept. The soul/spirit is what gives us the ability to appreciate beauty and the arts, things that are not important at all to survival. In fact, an argument can be made that our preoccupation with the arts can be a hindrance to survival. The soul is why we, humans, spend a huge part of our lives pursuing the arts. No animal does the same. Heck, animals could not care less about the beauty of the world.

  19. 19
    ET says:

    Question begging and special pleading.

    The courting dance of the blue bird of paradise is evidence that the arts and survival are linked. It is also evidence that the males spend a huge part of their lives pursuing the arts and the females appreciating them.

  20. 20
    FourFaces says:

    @19, Nope. It’s all pre-programmed instinct. God was just having some fun with the code. He also designed the beautiful plumage. Evolution could not possibly know anything about beauty.

  21. 21
    ET says:

    FourFaces:

    It’s all pre-programmed instinct.

    That’s your unsupportable opinion, anyway.

    Evolution could not possibly know anything about beauty.

    So what? Other animals definitely do.

  22. 22
    FourFaces says:

    Nonsense. Animals cannot see beauty. Neither can machines. They can only recognize the patterns they are programmed to recognize. Beauty is a spiritual concept. It is not a physical property of matter.

  23. 23
    ET says:

    FourFaces:

    Animals cannot see beauty.

    The evidence says otherwise

    They can only recognize the patterns they are programmed to recognize.

    Can you point to such programming?

    Beauty is a spiritual concept.

    Right and you think that other animals are devoid of spirit for some reason. I don’t share that concept and your scriptures don’t support you.

  24. 24
    FourFaces says:

    The evidence says otherwise

    That is a lie.

  25. 25
    ET says:

    So when animals show joy at reunions that is just pre-programming? Really? The female birds of paradise are programmed for all of the different dances the males might create? Really? Dogs, who didn’t exist until man’s hand did it, were pre-programmed to react the way they do? Really? Pea-hens were pre-programmed to go after the males with the right tail feathers?

    The lie is saying that other animals don’t appreciate beauty. And your lie is borne from arrogance and pride. Shameful, really.

  26. 26
    dvl says:

    FourFaces, are you saying that God (who presumably wants us to trust Him) made animals behave deceptively so we think that they have emotions and consciousness when they really don’t?

  27. 27
    ET says:

    Reading Genesis it has God Creating humans and giving humans dominion over all other animals. Now you want us to believe we were given dominion over automatons that otherwise have every other characteristic of being living organisms.

    Seems to me that you are adding agency involvement where it isn’t needed.

  28. 28
    FourFaces says:

    dvl @26,

    What deception? I’m not deceived. Outward intelligent behavior is not proof of consciousness. All those behaviors that you assume to be evidence of consciousness can be done with machines. Are the machines conscious?

  29. 29
    FourFaces says:

    ET, I’m done discussing anything with you. I have no desire to convince you of anything or anyone else for that matter. See ya.

  30. 30
    dvl says:

    FourFaces@28

    A machine can also be programmed to give the appearance of doing everything humans do.

    By that standard, there is no evidence that humans are conscious either.

    I don’t like the idea that God made animals with “no chance of salvation”, but there are a lot of things that I don’t like that are true.

    The most reasonable explanation for animals behaving as though they are conscious and have emotions is that they are conscious and have emotions.

  31. 31
    ET says:

    FourFaces:

    All those behaviors that you assume to be evidence of consciousness can be done with machines.

    That is the lie, FF. And I see that you have yourself convinced of it. Strange.

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