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Atheists/Materialists Are Closet Moral Objectivists

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1. If morality is subjective (by individual or group), as atheists/materialists claim, then what any individual/group ought to do is necessarily relative to that individual/group purpose. IOW, if my purpose is to make a frozen margarita, I ought put ice in the blender. If my purpose is to make fresh peanut butter, I ought not put ice in the blender. The ought-ness of any task can only be discerned by mapping it to the purpose for which the act is committed. Under moral subjectivism, acts in themselves are just brute facts with no objective moral value; they must be mapped to the subjective purpose to determine subjective moral value (oughtness).

2. The question “Is it moral to gratuitously torture children?” implies that whomever does such an act finds it personally gratifying in some way, and we are asking a third party if the act is moral or immoral. The only possible, logically consistent answer a subjective moralist (atheist/materialist) can give is that yes, it is moral, because the moral challenge is tautologically valid in the subjective morality model. If my purpose is to gratify myself, and torturing children gratifies me, there is a 1 to 1 mapping of act to purpose- I ought do so. It is moral by definition for anyone who is gratified by the act to do so for their own gratification.

3. If the moral subjectivist says that the act is immoral “to them”, they are committing a logical error. The acts of others can only be morally evaluated according to that particular person’s subjective purpose, not according to the subjective purposes of anyone else. That is the nature of subjective commodities and relationships. Whether or not it is something a third party “ought” do for their purposes is entirely irrelevant and is treating the third party’s purposes as if they are objectively valid and binding evaluations on the acts of others.

4. Would an atheist/materialist intervene if someone else was gratuitously torturing children? If they had the power to snap their fingers and eliminate this kind of activity from the world, would they do so? I suspect the answer to both would be: yes. Note how self-described moral subjectivists would treat their own personal preferences as if they were objectively valid and binding on others.

5. Only a sociopath can truly act as if morality is subjective. “Moral subjectivism” is a intellectual smokescreen. It is a self-deception or an oughtright lie. Its proponents cannot even act or respond to questions as if moral subjectivism is true. They betray themselves as closet moral objectivists in denial, hiding from the implications of a morality they must live and act as if objective.

Comments
But that doesn’t get you anywhere with the person who has a different view of what is good.
Regardless of what god approves of, and regardlessof whether you "get anywhere" with anyone that has a different point of view has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not any person's premise of morality is logically consistent with their behavior. If you claim morality is subjective, but act as if it is objective, you are either deceiving yourself or being a hypocrite.William J Murray
January 19, 2014
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#47 TSErik
To this point, though the torturer says his inclinations are good, and come from God, we can only conclude, as God exists, that the torturer is wrong.
Why?  You are human and therefore fallible. Maybe you just misinterpreted God’s will. It is possible. Maybe God actually approves of child torture. After all some bits of the Bible are open to interpretation. Suppose one day you realise that you got it wrong - God actually approves of child torture. In which case, if you really believe that God’s will is good by definition, you would have no option but to accept that child torture was actually good. (That's the downside of objective morals. The truth might not coincide with your strongly held beliefs). But actually I think your subjective moral rejection of the idea is so strong you could never accept that conclusion however strong the evidence – and quite right too. It is not me that is in a logical tangle.Mark Frank
January 19, 2014
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While the original argument assumed the existence of the Abrahamic God, the result can change. If the terms of the argument are changed, to state that the torturer believes in a different God, then you would be correct in stating I cannot prove anything. The discussion has become one of theology.TSErik
January 19, 2014
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If you are going to define God as the ultimate being that does/approves what is good then of God’s will is good. But that doesn’t get you anywhere with the person who has a different view of what is good. Suppose I think that doing good involves torturing children. Using your principle I would conclude God approves of torturing children – by definition. How are you to prove me wrong – objectively?
No, not quite. Within this argument, as we assume the existence of God, you "conclude God approves of torturing children" because the torturer finds it good. At this point it has become a metaphysical discussion of theology. Because both parties are now asserting that there is a supreme "good" that comes from a source, God, however the debate has become about properties of God. In this context, if we are both arguing that the Abrahamic God exists, and our moral inclinations come from the Abrahamic God, therefore the morality outlined by said God would be objective, whether one followed it or not, correct? As since the Abrahamic God exists, we must assume the texts authored by Him (or his will) exist as well. And so does his morality. To this point, though the torturer says his inclinations are good, and come from God, we can only conclude, as God exists, that the torturer is wrong. Whether he believes it or not, whether he is insane, sick, or plain evil and has found ways to ignore his innate morality, it doesn't matter - he is wrong. You can see why, in the context of our discussion where the Abrahamic God exists, the original statement falls apart.TSErik
January 19, 2014
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CS seems to think that if I feel homosexuality is wrong, it is perfectly valid, and if I feel strongly enough about it I can to try and stop any and all homosexual activity by any means I am comfortable with, including executing homosexuals. CS further thinks that it is "navel gazing" for me (the hypothetical me) to consider the distinction between "subjective" morality, "natural law" morality, and "command authority" morality, because regardless of my conclusion, I will still go around "doing what I feel" - executing homosexuals. However, I can attest that when my beliefs about a thing change, my feelings about that thing change as well. How I feel about various acts, wrt morality, has dramatically changed several times in my life, depending on the beliefs that I adopt about morality itself. Even if we reduce all morality to "doing what you feel", changing what one believes morality to be changes the feelings one has about moral behavior and obligations; so instead of feeling compelled to run around executing homosexuals, perhaps I'm fine (the hypothetical I) with the nature of an existence with an absolute morality doling out whatever necessary consequences may be coming their way - if any.William J Murray
January 19, 2014
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How we view "what morality is" wrt objective vs subjective directly affects not only our feelings and conceptualizations about what is appropriate in terms of both behavior and responses to behavior, but also affects our perception of the very mechanics of the system. Our behavior will change depending on if we think we will likely be caught, and if we think there will be unacceptable consequences. If one believes in absolute morality with necessary consequences, they believe they cannot help but be caught and pay the price (or get the reward) for whatever they do. Thus, far from being "navel gazing", it is indeed an important and practical consideration that has dramatic implications in terms of how we actually behave.William J Murray
January 19, 2014
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CS, Unless you are going to claim that how I feel about a thing is not affected by whether I consider that thing a subjective or an objective value, you've undermined your own rebuttal. How I feel about a thing, and what I think my response should be, is determined in great measure by whether or not I consider that thing to be subjective (personal preference) or objective (applies to everyone, at all times). IOW, how I - or anyone - behaves in a practical way with regards to moral questions cannot help but be affected by our beliefs about "what morality is". For many, the "navel gazing" belief that morality is subjective, while irrationaly acting as if it is objective, may be to a large degree harmless as long as it is riding along in a culture largely structured around a belief in objective morality. However, once you deeply imbed in the psyche of a population and its government that it's perfectly moral to use others as a means to gratify your own personal preferences, and that there are no necessary consequences, I don't think you or I would care to live in such a society. Far from being "navel gazing" and making no practical difference, whether one believes (actually believes, meaning they also act as if true) in subjective or objective morality can make an enormous difference in behavior.William J Murray
January 19, 2014
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#39 TESrik OK. One more point.
If God is the supreme good (as is in Abrahamic religions, the God YWHW), and God exists, God’s will must by definition be good.
If you are going to define God as the ultimate being that does/approves what is good then of God's will is good. But that doesn't get you anywhere with the person who has a different view of what is good. Suppose I think that doing good involves torturing children. Using your principle I would conclude God approves of torturing children - by definition. How are you to prove me wrong - objectively?Mark Frank
January 19, 2014
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Mark Frank: I just recognise that if the torturer sincerely believes human suffering is morally good then I have no way of proving him wrong.
Correct. At that point, trying to instruct the torturer that his act is "objectively wrong" is a waste of time. The proper thing to do is to shoot him in the head.CentralScrutinizer
January 19, 2014
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I should amend: They simply act on how they are wired what they were taught and thus how they feel.CentralScrutinizer
January 19, 2014
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WJM: It means that moral relativists will act on some moral questions as if the morality involved is objectively valid and binding on everyone whether they agree or not.
What you seem to be forgetting is that, whether one's moral views are considered subjective or objective, the practical effect is the same: I will act to enforce what I believe/feel/think is right because I have the impulse to do so. Here's how it works: 1. I am a moral subjectivist. 2. I value consciousness and seek to minimize the pain and sufferering of it. 3. Why? I don't know. It it feels right. You could say my brain is wired up with gobs of empathy. (This is the subjective and otherwise inexplicable basis of my morality.) 4. Therefore I think torturing babies for fun is evil. 5. I would do all in my power to stop it from happening if I encountered an occurrence of it. 6. Why? I have the impulse to fight on the behalf of victims. I'm wired that way. Any philosophical navel gazing whether or not this is "subjective" or "objective" is entirely irrelevant to how I view baby torture and what I would do to stop it. Regular people act everyday on their morality despite any philosophical navel gazing about whether their beliefs and feelings about a given issue is "subjective" or "objective" morality. They simply act on what they were taught and how they feel. In other words, the whole OP is waste of time is irrelevant to practical reality... unless you just happen to like to gaze and your navel philosophically. (I do, so I can hardly blame you for writing the OP.)CentralScrutinizer
January 19, 2014
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It is not as if they are arbitrary whims. They are based on reasons, knowledge and strong passions.
So are the torturer's. But as I asked before, what gives you the authority to encourage or discourage morality based on your subjective approval?
In my moral view they aren’t just as valid.
So you are stating that your moral standard is better than the torturer's? If they are not both just as valid then one must be more valid, or "better" than the other. Why is yours the better standard that you can pass judgement upon the torturer? If the only standard you seem to hold is that which you yourself devise, and you are then:
"acting to prevent people doing things I subjectively disapprove of and encouraging people to do things I subjectively approve of"
in essence, you believe you are the supreme moral authority. Your argument honestly, has the faults WJM has pointed out. Otherwise your worldview seems to be completely egocentric.
Just as you have no way of disproving someone who says I think doing God’s will is evil.
This doesn't logically make sense. If we are arguing the morality of God's will, we must argue under the assumption that God exists. If God is the supreme good (as is in Abrahamic religions, the God YWHW), and God exists, God's will must by definition be good. The sentence great attempt to ink the argument as it raises emotional levels, but honestly means nothing.
But I am going to stop this now. I have the debate too many times before and nothing comes of it.
It also seems as though that the only way for "something to come of it" is for us to convert to your ideas. This is normally a fantastic exit strategy that allows one to save face. However, it is quite clear to me, WJM, and all observers that you are finding your position indefensible.TSErik
January 19, 2014
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Mark Frank: You can keep reiterating that you can have your cake and eat it too, and believe it to be true, but that's why they call such beliefs irrational. You are employing semantic devices and logical fallacies in order to deceive yourself about the necessary ramification of your views. No matter what phrases and sentences you employ to convince yourself otherwise, subjective morality logically requires that you accept the Nazi and the torturer as not only being your moral equals, but you must admit that what they do is moral. That's the very nature of subjective preferences, no matter what adjectives you use characterize those preferences. Of course, I don't expect you to have the courage to face the logical ramifications of your beliefs - few do. All I'm doing here is exposing moral subjectivists for what they are.William J Murray
January 19, 2014
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Because you are planting your moral ideas above others, yet in your worldview, their moral positions are just as valid.
In my moral view they aren't just as valid. I am planting my moral ideas above theirs because subjectively I back them. It is not as if they are arbitrary whims. They are based on reasons, knowledge and strong passions. I just recognise that if the torturer sincerely believes human suffering is morally good then I have no way of proving him wrong. Just as you have no way of disproving someone who says I think doing God's will is evil. But I am going to stop this now. I have the debate too many times before and nothing comes of it.Mark Frank
January 19, 2014
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Morality is all about advancing my personal view of what is moral.
A very telling statement.
What is irrational about acting to prevent people doing things I subjectively disapprove of and encouraging people to do things I subjectively approve of?
Because you are planting your moral ideas above others, yet in your worldview, their moral positions are just as valid. Why should you alter moral behavior? What places your morality above the torturer's? Why are you right, and the torturer wrong? Are you just simply so much better than others that it is your position to encourage or discourage morality based on your subjective approval? Isn't that what the torturer did? Why is your position better than his? Again, why are you right, and he wrong? If you are better than others, as measured to what? What is "better"? And to say that the two positions aren't better or worse than each other an just are, it is simply passive approval.TSErik
January 19, 2014
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WJM The Nazi and the torturer may be behaving morally in their opinion (if their motives are indeed based on their idea of morality) but as a relativist that doesn't mean I have to accept that their behaviour is moral in my opinion or indeed in the opinion of the vast majority of people. Nothing irrational or hypocritical or inconsistent in that. Morality is all about advancing my personal view of what is moral. I am sure yours is as well. Not all my preferences are moral in nature - so it is not just about what I want and what I can do.Mark Frank
January 19, 2014
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What is irrational about acting to prevent people doing things I subjectively disapprove of and encouraging people to do things I subjectively approve of?
If the system you have described above is what defines "what is moral", then: (1) If the principle extends to other people, then you are logically compelled to admit that whatever they do to "prevent and encourage" towards their preferences is also moral. By definition, the torturer and the Nazi are as moral as you, and their acts as moral. And also, BTW, you are necessarily implying that using other people as a means to advance your personal preferences because you want to and because you can (might makes right) is what "morality" is all about. If you're comfortable with that, I'm content to let observers evaluate that moral view. (2) If the principle is not extended to other people, then you are treating your personal preferences as a de facto objective morality that all other behaviors are judged by, and calling it "subjective" would just be a deceit. (3) Since you are ideologically committed against objective morality, the answer must be (1). Please re-read the O.P. My claim about irrationality was about the self-deception and/or hypocrisy about this very point, because so-called moral subjectivists refuse to admit that under moral subjectivism, the torturer and the Nazi are behaving morally. So, when I ask "is it moral to gratuitously torture children", given the implicit assumption that it would be enjoyable for the torturer in question, the only logically consistent answer you can offer is "yes", because that is what they prefer and that is what they are willing to do to to get others to satisfy their personal preferences. MF: there's nothing (IMO) wrong with having irrational beliefs, but you cannot have your cake and eat it too. If you insist that morality is subjective, then you are logically compelled to admit that the torturer is behaving morally, and that morality is nothing more than a self-deceiving system that hides the simple fact that you believe everyone is using other people (and everything else in the world) to gratify personal preferences. That you would call this system "morality" is a disturbing indictment of moral subjectivism.William J Murray
January 19, 2014
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WJM
The difference is that one has a rationally sound basis for acting as if their moral views apply to other; the other has no rationally sound basis for such an act.
What is irrational about acting to prevent people doing things I subjectively disapprove of and encouraging people to do things I subjectively approve of?Mark Frank
January 19, 2014
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Did you read the links I posted? In India, rape is a fact of life. The rapists usually aren’t prosecuted. There are plenty of people living in that culture that do not view rape as being objectively (or subjectively wrong).
I certainly did, and would ask you the same question. It seems as though you are conflating justification with the moral truth. I addressed this point above with my response to "ciphertext". In the article it states:
"...in one poll, 68 percent of Indian judges said that “provocative attire” amounts to “an invitation to rape.”
Certainly that is abhorrent. But it also shows in this culture there IS a concept of violent and forcible sexual copulation, or rape. Do you argue this? The "provocative attire" comment is the justification. For instance: "Yes, rape is wrong. However, she is dressed provocatively so she secretly wants it or deserves it." This speaks to the ignorance of a culture. It speaks of a sub-culture that wallows in the suppression of the moral compass in order to justify heinous acts. Justifications for immoral acts are not the same thing as morality itself. In fact, the justifications exist BECAUSE humanity has inherent morality. Though it doesn't mean that everyone chooses to follow it.TSErik
January 18, 2014
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How is this action going to differ from acting according to an objective purpose?
I didn't say the action would be different. In fact, my argument depends on the act being pretty much the same. The difference is that one has a rationally sound basis for acting as if their moral views apply to other; the other has no rationally sound basis for such an act. The subjectivist, logically, should act like the moral behavior of others is like any other subjective behavior and turn their eyes away if they do not like it.
After all there are plenty of fields where a judgement is clearly subjective but widely shared and no one finds it odd to act according to that widely accepted opinion. For example, suppose it is widely accepted that one young musician is more talented than another – a subjective opinion, but one based on reasons – then an arts council will devote more public money to that musician. Is that acting as though it were objectively true that the musician were better or simply acting on a widely held, reasoned, subjective opinion?
It's acting on a widely held, reasoned subjective opinion. Collectively, informally, people also buy one product over another and competing businesses can fail because customers subjectively like one product better than another. This is why some movies become blockbusters and others fail miserably at the box office even if they were critical acclaimed. As far as I can tell here, you are pointing out something that is trivially true as if it makes a point against my argument. The difference between such admittedly subjective commodities and a moral commodity claimed to be subjective is that in moral cases we are not content to "look the other way", but rather feel obligated to intervene. This is what my "gratuitously torturing children" example points out. Only a madman rushes the stage to stop a musician from playing because he doesn't want anyone else to hear him play. Only a madman would devise a plan to break into the musician's house and steal their instruments so they cannot torture the instruments further, no matter how badly the musician played. Yet, we would consider it our obligation to find some way to deprive the torturer of their ability to torture, or failing that, at least steal the children away from them. That you are willing, in your example, to compare "a less talented musician" to a person who tortures children for fun as if they are indicative only of difference of quantity of public agreement and not different qualitatively demonstrates the depraved condition of your mental faculties and shows how far you are willing to go to deny that all sane people must behave as if at least some moral jujdgements they hold are objectively, absolutely true. It wouldn't matter if everyone except sociopaths considered a person a bad musician, sane people would not attempt to deprive him of his musical instruments just because he was a poor musician. All we would care about is not having to listen to it. If he wanted to torture his instruments in a soundproof basement, we wouldn't be calling in swat to stop him once we found out what he was doing.William J Murray
January 18, 2014
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TSErik comments,
I think you are misunderstanding what I was saying. Perhaps it was my fault as the word “abide” may not convey properly my thoughts. I was stating that there’s no culture in which violent, forcible copulation isn’t seen as wrong. Surely, there are societies where heinous acts are perpetrated, and attempts at justification are made.
Did you read the links I posted? In India, rape is a fact of life. The rapists usually aren't prosecuted. There are plenty of people living in that culture that do not view rape as being objectively (or subjectively wrong). In Steubenville, OH, the rape survivor was harassed by the townspeople because of the fact that her rapists were high school football players and a felony conviction would have ended their chances of being recruited by colleges to play. In either case, I'm not seeing where people feel that rape is objectively wrong. They simply do it, and expect that others will somehow understand or condone their actions.Barb
January 18, 2014
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Ciphertext @ 26:
I’m not sure I follow that statement.
Your "behavioral definition" is simply another way of saying justification. Can you find me a culture that has no concept of rape, or murder? Where violent, forcible sexual abuse or killing one's neighbor for no reason is a virtue? Where the stated acts require no justification for being carried out? We may not agree with the justification that rape cannot occur in a marriage in certain cultures, but the fact that a justification must be made shows that rape itself is wrong, even in said cultures. This is what I was talking about when I mentioned objective moral truths and subjective interpretations. Humans universally have the understanding that murder is wrong. Therefore, justifications must be made in the minds of humans when taking a life. Humanity creates justifications in order to reason going against inherent moral truths.
why would there be a subjective definition of an objective moral truth?
It is silly to focus on the cultural incoherency of the subjective justifications. To illustrate, imagine a group of people are on a hike. This group comes upon a flower none of them have ever seen before. The group agrees the flower is beautiful, but one person says the flower is a beautiful red color where another claims that it is more orange. One says they are both wrong and that the flower is maroon. One says it is sienna. Another person says all the others are wrong, because they are viewing the flower in a shadow and that the flower is actually a yellow color. The flower exists objectively. The color is also there in the wavelengths of reflected light. It is there regardless of the subjective interpretations of the hiking group. So here we see a subjective interpretation of an object that exists. Your rebuttal speaks to the color of the flower. You are stating that because the group cannot agree on the color, the flower does not exist. I argue that morality is inherent in humanity, but ultimately given by an external source. Humanity knows there is a flower. They know there is color to this flower, just as they know certain behaviors are simply wrong. Because humanity has this inherent moral compass, justifications must be made when going against it. This doesn't mean humanity is perfect and adheres to inherent moral truths all the time. Nor does it mean all justifications are created equal.TSErik
January 17, 2014
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WJM As I understand it your thesis depends on a distinction between acting to fulfil an objective "purpose" and acting to fulfil a subjective "purpose". I don't think the word "purpose" is the right one but it may not matter that much. So lets go with that for the moment. Bearing in mind that in the case of morality that subjective "purpose" will typically be: a) shared by many, many other people b) based on reasons not just plucked out of the air How is this action going to differ from acting according to an objective purpose? After all there are plenty of fields where a judgement is clearly subjective but widely shared and no one finds it odd to act according to that widely accepted opinion. For example, suppose it is widely accepted that one young musician is more talented than another - a subjective opinion, but one based on reasons - then an arts council will devote more public money to that musician. Is that acting as though it were objectively true that the musician were better or simply acting on a widely held, reasoned, subjective opinion?Mark Frank
January 17, 2014
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So when you say “…subjective interpretation of the objective moral truth…”, why would there be a subjective definition of an objective moral truth? I’m not sure I understand how an objective moral truth wouldn’t carry with it an objective definition.
Humans exist in "Plato's Cave", subjectively interpreting everything they encounter - even brick walls. Several different people can be witnesses to a crime scene and then give entirely different accounts and descriptions. Everything humans experience - subjective or objective in nature - is experienced, processed and interpreted subjectively.
So, absent a moral absolute as the relative standard of comparison. You are positing that the atheist-materialist worldview substitutes “purpose”?
All morality - even objective morality - exists in relationship to purpose, whether we know what it is, can articulate it or not. Morality is a description of oughts that seek to fulfill a purpose. Atheists/materialists generally believe in subjective morality - meaning, subjective purposes. Many theists, on the other hand, hold that existence serves an absolute purpose.
The exercise of the free will isn’t constrained by natural “forces” such as gravity or the weak and strong nuclear forces, in as so much as they don’t interfere with your cogitation.
Which is why they call it free will and not free action.
Rather my point being that in so much as the weak nuclear force governs the decay of atoms, so too might an absolute moral commandment govern the expression of one’s will. A bit like Asimov’s three laws of robotics. Those would be absolute commandments made of the automaton, in which the automaton would be left to judge the appropriate behavior relative to those laws.
That's not my view. My view is that one can employ their free will to commit evil acts. We are free to go against the will (purpose) of god if we choose to do so. Again, the important point isn't so much the particulars of purpose and the extent of free will, but rather that people must behave as if morality refers to an objective commodity. The idea of group or individual "subjective morality" is either the result of self-deceiving, improper strings of words and concepts, or it's blatant hypocrisy. Free will is another of those things that atheists/materialists try to have their cake and eat it too, but that's another column, another day.William J Murray
January 17, 2014
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Re: Post #10 @TSErik But there is no culture that abides rape, just as no culture abides murder. Different cultures may have different interpretations of what constitutes rape, or murder, but this is the subjective interpretation of the objective moral truth inherent in humanity. I'm not sure I follow that statement. If the issue is one of behavioral definition (e.g. what constitutes rape, or murder) then in order for no culture to abide rape, all cultures must similarly define rape must they not? Otherwise what constitutes rape in our culture (assuming USA for purposes of argument) might differ from those of other countries. So much so that what happens in China or some Muslim countries is not rape by their definition, but would undoubtedly be classified as rape by our (most states in the USA) standards. As an example, China and "many Muslim countries" don't have a definition for rape within marriage. (economist article) So when you say "...subjective interpretation of the objective moral truth...", why would there be a subjective definition of an objective moral truth? I'm not sure I understand how an objective moral truth wouldn't carry with it an objective definition. Re: Post #11 @OP So, absent a moral absolute as the relative standard of comparison. You are positing that the atheist-materialist worldview substitutes "purpose"? The exercise of the free will isn't constrained by natural "forces" such as gravity or the weak and strong nuclear forces, in as so much as they don't interfere with your cogitation. Rather my point being that in so much as the weak nuclear force governs the decay of atoms, so too might an absolute moral commandment govern the expression of one's will. A bit like Asimov's three laws of robotics. Those would be absolute commandments made of the automaton, in which the automaton would be left to judge the appropriate behavior relative to those laws. BTW...thanks for the thread, it makes for some serious thinking.ciphertext
January 17, 2014
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But individuals would be morally objective per that societal standard. They could even say that somehow evolution built it into their minds to persuade them to that standard. Of course, I’d argue they are deluded, but they could believe that. And if they had a standard like the nazi’s, then I could still judge their standard as immoral, because I hold to an absolute standard…regardless of their views. Am I missing something obvious?
I'm not sure what you're saying. If they believe their standard is universal and absolute, then their premise is sound and their behavior matches their premise. IOW, that society and the individuals in it and I agree that we can only act as if our morality reflects something absolute. IOW, the Nazis did believe in a kind of absolute morality - might makes right, survival of the fittest, and behaved accordingly - as if it was a universally true and applicable morality. If, however, you are saying that they consider their morals absolute AND something that is different from society to society, then they are saying nonsense. Just because people can say a thing - like, "I have compatibalist free will" or "I can imagine a 4-sided triangle" doesn't change the fact that what they are saying is nonsense. You can't consider your morals absolute AND subjective from society to society. If morals are different from society to society, you have no means by which to judge the other society's moral behavior except in light of how they feel, and what purpose their actions are supposed to serve.William J Murray
January 17, 2014
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Murray,
However, we cannot act as if independent societies get to determine what is good and actually judge it that way, or else we’d all agree that killing Nazis was moral because that’s what that group decided was good.
But individuals would be morally objective per that societal standard. They could even say that somehow evolution built it into their minds to persuade them to that standard. Of course, I'd argue they are deluded, but they could believe that. And if they had a standard like the nazi's, then I could still judge their standard as immoral, because I hold to an absolute standard...regardless of their views. Am I missing something obvious?JGuy
January 17, 2014
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Barb @22: I think you are misunderstanding what I was saying. Perhaps it was my fault as the word "abide" may not convey properly my thoughts. I was stating that there's no culture in which violent, forcible copulation isn't seen as wrong. Surely, there are societies where heinous acts are perpetrated, and attempts at justification are made.TSErik
January 17, 2014
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TSErik:
But there is no culture that abides rape, just as no culture abides murder. Here, let's start with Wikipedia and you can look up other sources on your own: "Rape in India has been described by Radha Kumar as one of India's most common crimes against women[1] and by the UN’s human-rights chief as a “national problem”.[2] Marital rape is not a criminal offence.[3] Per-capita reported incidents of rape are quite low compared to other countries, even developed countries.[4][5] According to 2012 statistics, New Delhi has the highest number of rape-reports among Indian cities, while Jabalpur has the per capita incidence of reported rapes.[6][7] Sources show that rape cases in India have doubled between 1990 and 2008.[8] According to the National Crime Records Bureau, 24,206 rape cases were reported in India in 2011, but experts agree that the number of unreported cases of sexual assault brings the total much higher.[9] Article on the Steubenville, OH, case where a girl was raped by football players (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/13/opinion/sunday/is-delhi-so-different-from-steubenville.html?_r=0) From the article linked above: "In some places, rape is endemic: in South Africa, a survey found that 37 percent of men reported that they had raped a woman." You were saying...?
Barb
January 17, 2014
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I could be wrong, but this seems like objectivity to me, at least at some level.
It's just a consensus morality, which is subjective morality on a group scale. Agreeing that red is good is a subjective designation, even if there are objective means by which to determine the "redness" of a thing. If the Nazis consider that "killing Jews" is good, there is an objective way to measure how good an act is - by measuring how many Jews are killed. However, we cannot act as if independent societies get to determine what is good and actually judge it that way, or else we'd all agree that killing Nazis was moral because that's what that group decided was good.William J Murray
January 17, 2014
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